It's hilarious how many GMs just mentally collapse the moment you decide not to fight something. The other players too. EVERYBODY gets so fucking mad. Their minds just can't comprehend the possibility that someone wouldn't just mindlessly stand their ground and fight to the death.

As I gradually weed out my old characters I started making my new ones specialize in escapes and stealth. I think I'm going to get kicked out of most of my groups for doing this shit, but I'm in so many that it would be good to clear my schedule a little bit anyways.

>>96102405 (OP)
>many GMs just mentally collapse
Post 10 examples.

I have seen this at cons but that's because they've prepped stuff for one scenario instead of literally everything. One game ended halfway because we wouldn't rescue some shitters from a spaceship and fled from an attacking combat spacecraft when we had a shitty hauler of some sort

>>96102405 (OP)
the fuck you on about npcs surrender and beg for their life all the time. players rarely do this because they are conditioned to think some murderhobo goblin won't listen. very rarely have I witnessed humans just start killing. must be some noob gm

>>96102496
>>96102405 (OP)
I think it's pretty typical for GMs who treat the game as a fixed series of combat encounters with some flavor text to connect them to get flustered when players try to do anything but fight.

>>96102405 (OP)
What the fuck are you on about? I've never even heard of this being an issue for anyone.

>>96102405 (OP)
Dude you can absolutely go. Congrats, you got your win con, and the story goes on without you

>>96102405 (OP)
I would just override your character actions and say that your character doesn't want to run away.
What you're gonna do? If you leave the discord call I'll just keep controlling your character anyway.
You have no power here.

>>96102695
>>96102823
cue the melty lol

>>96102412
Well
>>96102448
>>96102543
>>96102695
>>96102823
There's your first four.

>>96102843
>>96102853
>mass replying with no arguments
And I was ready to have a fun time having a meaningless argument and pretend to be an angry GM, but you just made it boring.
Way to kill your own thread.

>>96102405 (OP)
Yeah this is pretty common, though it's understandable when it's some sort of staged event or a new GM.
It's even harder because if half the party still wants to fight, the group is pressured to fight because then you're abandoning the party to get killed in a now unfair fight.

>>96102405 (OP)
You've made this thread many times.

>>96102405 (OP)
Never encountered it at the table, but apparently it's a typical scenario some redditors love talking about, when they imagine how it would feel, and what they would experience, if they were to play games.

>>96102405 (OP)
Hate to break it to you OP, but it's not a sign of your supposed cleverness that this keeps happening. It's cause you keep playing games where dungeon trawling and monster fighting is the main focus of the rules, and stealth rules are usually far more of a slapdash half-baked option of necessity rather than given emphasis. It's common for people who only play D&D to fool themselves into thinking that they're some kind of tactical genius when they decide to try and turn tail every fight, when it's more likely they're just wasting their game master's and their party's time.

And it's not an issue specific to just playing a coward in a game focused around fighting your goes, it'd be the same if a player wanted to focus on basically playing craftsman/merchant in a system where it's a very secondary thing, or a silver-tongued schemer in a game where the social engagement rules are half-baked and/or the gm/party is only "okay" at the roleplaying part of the equation. Mismatch between the game focus and what a player wants to do that's contrary to it leaves a lot of frustration, especially if the player doesn't lay out their plans so everyone can prep for it. Guarantee you that if you played an acknowledged coward in a heist mission like in Cyberpunk 2020 or Shadowrun, the GM would have far less issue with you deciding to avoid fights as much as possible.

>ok, your character gets away
>now here's a sheet for the NPC ally, you'll be playing as him, so you have something to do while the other PCs have a combat scene

>>96102405 (OP)
>low level D&D party
>walking through fairly shallow canyon road
>DM says we see there's an Ettin guarding the road ahead
>3/5 party members: "We can take it!"
>try rush in with zero planning
>me and wizard actually role play and duck behind some rocks to come up with a plan
>Ettin one shots the party "tank" in the first round and kills the other 2 over the next three rounds while taking maybe 20 damage total
>wizard and I just flee
>three players get mad at us for not joining in on their suicide pact
>DM later admits we were supposed to just "talk" to the Ettin

I blame video games for this.

>nogames fantasizing about having a game where he avoids playing the game
Why does this happen so often?

>>96103557
In that hypothetical scenario, that's on the GM for not having the Ettin show the party mercy and just knocking the attackers out instead of outright killing them if he wanted anyone to think this guy could be reasoned with.

>>96102405 (OP)
I dunno last session I played I talked to something instead of fight it and nobody got peeved.

>>96102405 (OP)
Mismatch of expectations due to bad communication. Could be fixed by everyone involved not being spergs.

>>96102405 (OP)
Undertale has ruined a generation of gamers

>>96102405 (OP)
Most rpg players are braindead used to videogame rpgs where the primary way to interact with a game is murdering shit and retreating is only an incidental option.

>>96103634
>someone tries to kill you
>kill them in self defense
>"well if you were a reasonable person you would have only knocked them out and waited for them to surrender ( which they would only do because they lost; if they were winning you would simply be dead )
liberal brain rot

>>96102412
me.
I prepared for a battle, not a scooby-doo style door chase
>>96102853

>>96102405 (OP)
I doubt you've played under one GM, let alone many.

>>96105557
Like I said, if the GM wanted to pretend that they were "reasonable", they would have showed mercy. Cause I hate to break it to you, but NPCs aren't real people, and most players don't try to see things from their hypothetical viewpoint. Only for what they do/don't do. Which is why the more sociopathihc don't care if it's some little kid throwing a rock at them, he's still getting his ass kicked.

>>96102405 (OP)
>plays a game that's all about combat
>tries to weasel out of fighting
Hey retard, instead of trying to play in a way that isn't intended have you tried not playing D&D?

>>96105740
casting stones is a method of execution
a kid throwing rocks isn't harmless and neither is physical punishment for doing so sociopathic

>>96105844
See, you get what I mean.

It's hilarious how many Players just mentally collapse the moment you decide they have to fight something. The whole party too. EVERYBODY gets so fucking mad. Their minds just can't comprehend that possibility that someone could quantum teleport right in front of them and fight to the death.

As I gradually weed out my old players I started making new games specialize in social intrigue and espionage, then I teleport an Ogre to them. I think I'm going to lose my games for doing this shit, but I'm the only GM so they have to deal with it.

>>96102405 (OP)
>GMs just mentally collapse
Really? Why?

>>96102405 (OP)
I have no beef with players retreating or trying to evade combat, but I do have a problem with splitting the party. If you want to escape, you should discuss it with the other players and formulate a strategy to disengage the group. In this hypothetical, I'd be just as annoyed with one player demanding his guy stays and fights while everyone else is hoofing it. Nobody likes dealing with le epic lone wolf bullshit.

>>96102405 (OP)
Congrats OP, you have proven your point splendidly.

>>96107287
That he's a moron who thinks too highly of himself?

seems like something the party would solve
>this one fucker keeps running and hiding while we take all the risk, but he still claims his share of the treasure
>fuck this coward, boot his ass out. what's he gonna do fight us?
then advise he make a character the party will actually keep around

>>96102405 (OP)
This is mostly an issue in systems with different timekeeping between combat and noncombat because it makes gameplay awkward and can grind a session to a halt or result in asymmetric results that aren't fun. In games that function the same in and out of combat it's not really an issue at all.
Not surprised if you've only played D&D or D&D clones that it would cause issues. Even when it makes complete sense in-character and in-universe it's often incredibly unsatisfying.

Example of the top of my head, I was in a campaign where a blacksmith's daughter was kidnapped and going to be fed to some ghouls by an asshole necromancer. The party crashed the ritual and got the kid and had to deal with the undead. In-character the plan was to get the kid away from the bad guys, in-universe it made total sense to extract the hostage, and everyone's morals were totally and unequivocally on board with doing the reasonable thing and somebody carrying the kid away to not witness horrific bloodshed and risk getting caught up in flying zombie guts or ghoul spit.
The problem becomes "I take the kid and run" and "I'm still running away, it's only been like 30 seconds" being your turn for ten rounds straight is incredibly fucking boring in a game that segments combat into six second increments and if you're not in danger due to a properly planned and executed rescue you get "rewarded" for smart tactics AND in-universe roleplay by sitting out the last hour of the session because you don't want to be retarded and stick around to fight while leaving a small child laying on the ground like a pinata so you can have fun for a bit before taking them back.

>>96102405 (OP)
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/95446028/

Spamming faggot, commit suicide.

>>96102405 (OP)
Are you sure that's the problem? Are you suuuuure?

Because it sounds a lot like the actual problem is that you are a vapid contrarian trying to derail the game and subvert the plot in a counter-productive manner, and you're trying to manipulate the narrative about what you're doing in a deceitful manner, using "I just wanna play my character realistically, he doesn't wanna fight the death because that's weird and unrealistic!" as a (transparent) disguise.

Maybe you should try actually engaging with the game that you signed up to play.

>>96107287
just the idea of it is sending people into a frothing rage

>>96102405 (OP)
I had a great in-character moment that involved running away. I'd been playing a human-raised drow thief with severe arachnophobia (that had nothing to do with Lolth and everything to do with waking up one morning when she was 5 and finding herself staring at a giant-ass spider (a daddy longlegs) on her pillow looking back at her).

So there'd been several fights against giant spiders that I'd only taken part in at range, and one forest that had been overgrown with spiderwebs from giant spiders and ettercaps that the party's warlock had needed to use Suggestion on my character to get me through.

But anyway, we got past that, found our way to some castle. While exploring the place, I opened the door, and the DM described me as seeing, about 10 feet away, a Giant Centipede. Which is not a spider, but...I went with my first instinct:

>Me: "Giant centipede?"
>DM: "Yup."
>Me: "Okay. Basically imagine there's a "ding" and screen freezes. Then little arrows start popping up pointing to the legs, numbered: 'One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, PANIC!'"
>DM: "So you will not be participating in this encounter."
>Me: "I will not be, no. Iliira goes running away screaming at the top of her lungs."
>DM: "You know you won't get any XP."
>Me: "That's fair."

>>96108744
>great in-character moment
>everybody except you hated it
You had a That Guy moment anon.

>>96102405 (OP)
I don't always run away, but I do try to fight deceptively with a few of my PCs. I'll retreat & set a trap, or I'll do something to absolutely shut an encounter down with clever ability use

>>96109737
Traps and weakness exploitation are usually much more handleable than if one dude runs away, since at least that means everyone is still contributing. That and not putting up with the guy who retreated pouting that the DM isn't focusing on him at all despite how occupied the rest of the table is with finishing the fight.

>>96109078
Actually they loved it, not the least of which because it meant more XP for them. But also I'd been playing with that same group for 11 years at that point (20 years now), we know what we can and can't get away with.

>>96102405 (OP)
I will alpha strike or as the kids say "blow my load" then run away if the objective is not complete.

>>96109836
Sometimes my party doesn't go along with my plan.

>>96110137
Yeah, but that's between you, your party, and your GM. I can only speak from my own experiences, and it's that a fair amount of self-proclaimed "pragmatic" types are very impatient.

>>96110158
Yeah I'm more likely to hold back, while the fighter types are chomping at the bit to bust heads in a traditional way, while I want to say, telepathically convince the goblins to kill their boss. Or shoot the big dumb ogre with arrows as they charge blindly across a field, or lead one monster to fight another monster while we dip out

>>96110217
At least it sounds like you can plan around your party's actions to contribute in your own way.

>>96105740
My players still attacked an openly non-hostile neutral enemy (complete with successful check to check his body language) in the aftermath of combat, still attacked him, and got surprised he attacked back in self-defense. Then killed him for daring to attack back.
Mind you, this is after a big boss battle, and said enemy backed off on seeing his boss is losing, and didn't attack and stayed out of the fight for three rounds for clear intent before getting slapped.

>>96105990
kek

>>96102405 (OP)
I'm a decent enough DM and player that I can roll with the punches when players avoid combat. But most of the systems I've played are ABOUT fighting monsters so there are pretty strong expectations on both sides of the screen that at some point the session is going to brawl which will allow us to engage in 90% of the systems mechanics.

Not to belittle your point, it IS important to not freak out when combats are avoided, but I feel the most common systems in ttrpg's are about combat (dnd & pathfinder) so it's not that unreasonable that players and DM's expect it to happen.

>>96102405 (OP)
How do I achieve this natty?

>>96102861
>unfair fight
If the party ever find themselves in a fair fight, they made a series of terrible mistakes leading up to it already. Let the noobs rightfully die. Winners don't fight fair.

>>96105557
which is exactly my argument for executing bandits etc. when they surrender. The only reason they begged for mercy was because I was stronger. Had my character just been a normal merchant he would be dead and they would not care.
that is assuming the Bandits or whatever imediatly attack ourfight and don't do the old 'heyhey this is a robbery pls empty your pockets'.

>>96111815
someone learned their
>If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you tactics suck

>>96102405 (OP)
See it's the opposite for my group. We try diplomacy our other options until God speaks to me that i need to blow the head off of the npc we're talking to with His chosen caliber and then people look at me

>>96103557
People might think this is retarded bait but I spent years running public 5e games pre-corona. It was mostly enjoyable and lots of fun, but many players definitely have a video game mentality of, "It's in the game, so we should be able to beat it!"

It's not exactly the same, but an insanely egregious example of player retardation happened when I ran "Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan" from Yawning Portal at an open table. The party spent like 2.5 real-life fucking hours in the very first room which had some alcoves with art and a door. They broke vases, interacted with strange art, looked around, argued vehemently about what to do. They felt lost and didn't know how to progress. None of them tried simply opening the fucking door. It was unlocked, fully visible, not trapped, not anything. They just didn't try opening it. Blew my mind. That one-shot turned into a three-shot.

I've long since abandoned 5e, but it's pretty hilarious (and sometimes depressing) how stupid some players are.

>>96116465
If anything, they're worse with puzzles or actual diplomacy.

I would know, since I'm absolutely useless when the DM throws a puzzle at me.

This thread is retarded bait but it brings up a good point. How do you "telegraph" (as much as I hate that word) to players that they SHOULDN'T fight something? Or, more generally, where is the "player skill" or "character skill" involved in the part of deciding whether to fight something?

Do you have them make Wisdom checks to "size up" a creature?
Do you encourage metagaming and knowledge of monsters' hit dice / challenge rating?
Do you make all the monsters have slightly less damage but way more hit points so that players can "slowly lose" a fight and then run away when running low on HP?
Do you make them invest a lot into lore / knowledge skills to identify monsters and then say "it's the kind of monster that would be even odds with an ogre in a fight" or "it's the kind of monster that would be even odds with a beholder in a fight"?
D&D is the example here but it could apply to anything. IDK if GURPS has rules for sizing up an opponent before battle.

>>96116515
I will fully admit to being a hack and at times either using environmental storytelling to make it clear this foe is not to be messed with like with bodies all over the place or a fair amount of wrecked forest around them, or straight up gifting them meta knowledge if they actually size up their foe how "this foe is stronger than any you've faced so fa, and you don't think your odds look good". Just so if the party decides to take them on anyways, it was entirely their choice and they can't say didn't give warning signs.

>>96116582
Yeah that's fair. My group is pretty experienced so I don't mind putting an iron golem guarding a chest in a level 1 dungeon and they better be really quiet since they don't have ranks in Perception but they could still get to the check if they were quiet and get big time treasure. But that relies on them (the players) knowing that an iron golem is CR 13. By the rules, they'd need a DC 28 Knowledge (arcana) check to know anything like that. But I feel like most people would know that an iron golem is a fearsome monster capable of wiping the floor with a dozen ogres let alone a few novice heroes.

>>96108051
>go to the trouble of rephrasing the bait
>use the exact same image

>>96116515
>This thread is retarded bait but it brings up a good point
What does bait even mean anymore?

Completely meaningless buzzword.

>>96116869
See:
>>96108051

>>96116885
If it 'brings up a good point' then it's not bait you seething retard.

>>96116891
It doesn't.

>>96117010
Now this is bait.

>>96116582
>I will fully admit to being a hack and at times
also it's not your fault, D&D provides basically zero mechanism for figuring out if a monster is out of your league (without metagaming or heavy DM intervention like "you find this monster in a room with 5 dead monsters you just struggled to defeat around it" which works once in a while but can't be used all the time.

>>96116515
Perception checks to size up enemies are just part of the system I'm using and whenever a player rolls high on the check and gets *nothing* they usually get the hint that it's something out of their league.

The party shaman also has a tendency to try and cheat out knowledge using spirits so I fluff spirit responses according to threat level or hostility. They got the fuck out fast after realizing the mansion they were robbing had something that vaporized the spirits the second the shaman tried asking.

monster knowledge checks in sword world and gobslay ttrpg solve this, while being derived from OSR / Bex / ADnD.

>>96103557
>DM later admits we were supposed to just "talk" to the Ettin
Who actually tries talking to an Ettin though? Even by Giant standards they’re known for being extremely retarded and needlessly violent. My first instinct would have been to sneak past an Ettin.

>>96102405 (OP)
As a player you have some obligation to respect the scenario that the GM spent a couple hours prepping.

>>96105560
Then you're a shitty GM. A good GM should have a general plan/narrative they want to follow, but should also be prepared for the eventuality that players will not go down the prepared paths you've laid out for them.

>>96118678
I think DMs should be disciplined enough to include details based on the passive perception of the party when enumerating the key details of the scene as they narrate it to players. If it's important enough, telegraph it in the initial scene narration.

>>96120239
No, I really don't. When serving in the role of GM, you are no longer a thinking, feeling human being. To put it in video game terms, you are merely the game engine. As the player, I am free to interact with the game engine in any way I see fit. When playing a video game, I don't have to respect the game developer's intentions. Same for tabletop games. I don't have to respect the GM's intentions either. Don't like it? Don't be a GM.

>>96120239
Might as well play a video game if you're going to restrict yourself with shit like that.

>>96120297
>>96120401
No, you should write flexible scenarios, and be able to improv. However, it's bad etiquette to engage in anti-play and waste the time of everyone else at the table by not engaging with the scenario the GM prepped.

>>96120401
No problem, enjoy your video games. The rest of us will keep playing.

>>96120662
I don't have to. My GM isn't a downie.

>>96120075
The DM has no obligation to depict monsters exactly as they're presented in the monster manual, maybe in his settings that isn't true and the players shouldn't have made metagame assumptions.

>>96117050
>no argument

>>96102412
Looks like you're getting a lot more than 10.

>>96102405 (OP)
This used to be me. But after I switched to a system that wasn't D&D 5E, encounter-building and adventure-planning became so much easier, so I don't get annoyed anymore when players skip over certain encounters, and am in fact sometimes even proud of them when they do so.

>>96103634
>>96105557
It really depends on which edition you're playing.
In 5E, a harmless knockout costs nothing, so there's no reason not to do if there's any reason you might want your opponent alive.
But in 3.5E, for example, trying to knock out an opponent might give a -4 penalty to hit, and in a life-or-death situation, that might not be a risk you want to take.

>>96125418
How do you even run away from shit in D&D? The enemies are usually way faster.

>>96129817
>implying dnd players read the rules

>>96129817
Magic.

>>96102405 (OP)
Obsessed OP and obsessed replies. Stop playing TTRPGs if you hate them, it's not complicate. That little crumb of attention you're looking for to make it feel like it was worth your time for reasons that have nothing to do with enjoying the game isn't going to come, it hasn't in the many years you've been wasting on it.

>>96132225
I just don't play D&D, that seems to solve the issue a lot easier

>>96120472
I am engaging with it though. I'm just not engaging with it in the way the GM wants me to. And honestly, fuck what the GM wants. The game isn't supposed to be fun for him, it's supposed to be fun for the players.

>>96132225
Wonder what prompted this schizo rant.

>>96132237
This kind of post is how you can tell someone hasn't played a proper game before, lol

>>96102405 (OP)
As a player, I get so fucking MAD when a GM expects me not to fight something.

>>96132373
Cope.

>>96137428
That's the best you got, huh?

>>96137603
It was better than yours.

>>96137656
It really wasn't, friend

>>96120075
>>My first instinct would have been to sneak past an Ettin.
>Two Heads. The ettin has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks
I'd either fight it or try to trick it, as you've stated, they're known for being retarded

>>96132408
It needs to be clearly shown that they are stronger than you to the point you have to flee. If your dm introduces a fight like this and you think you can win, you can’t blame the party for at least trying to fight.

just play something that isn't D&D 3 to 5e

>>96102448
I sometimes have this when running one shots.
I'm sorry, I didn't sit down to catter to your whims, fuck face. There's a clear pitch and if you can enjoy yourself while dealing with it we're golden, if you hear that this is a police procedural game and you start shooting randos on the street I'm gonna stop you and ask you to either engage with the game or leave space for someone who will. I'm not a chatbot forced to adress whatever the fuck you wanted to do that morning, I'm not even your friend.

>>96103591
if you put it that way then it sounds pretty natural

>>96105557
>NPC exists to communicate information
>NPC kills players
If you're doing a free form sandbox thing that's cool, but if you're gonna crap your pants at unexpected actions not making the quest giver look like a mindless enemy is basic common sense.

>>96105844
>a kid throwing a stone is indistinguishable from dozens of adults throwing stone after stone not stopping until murdering someone.

>>96105990
kek
that should be its own thread

>>96116465
>They felt lost and didn't know how to progress. None of them tried simply opening the fucking door. It was unlocked, fully visible, not trapped, not anything.
for 2 hours?
At that point it falls on you for not somehow pushing them or defining the expected threat level (some players new to dungeons assume any door for any reasson might be an instakill, like there's no logic or human element from the GM side, so they refuse to act). Like, what made them finally do something?

>>96116515
since the enjoyment of fights depends heavily on the system it should be either fights solving everything or fights always being a bad idea.

>>96102405 (OP)
It isn't hilarious. You aren't laughing. You don't have a nuanced opinion based on personal experience on this topic. You're just making things up and trying to waste board space. Saged, hidden. Anyone posting in this thread is Jewish.

>>96139387
Tears streaming down your face as you type this.

>>96139997
>"Tears streaming down your face as you type this." narrated anon, unknowingly describing himself to a T

Learned from my AD&D days to never fight anything unless you can kite it to death.

>>96102405 (OP)
>allow coward to flee
>he gets ambushed 1v6 because he ran from the group
>dies a bitch
Sounds funny. Abandoning your allies should be punished.

>>96141832
I don’t think an ally would ever flee without their full party (minus the dead). If they do, they’re a shit ttrpg player.

>>96141832
But then the rest of the party will have to fight the 6 ambushers.

>>96102859
>I was ready to [be merely pretending]
>why no arguments?!
This is why no one bothers with you, Jeff.

>>96102405 (OP)
Sounds like a system problem. In the game I'm in, if the enemy is vaguely intelligent and not an ideological opponent usually an attempt to parlay is made because combat is dirty, scary, and often times a waste of resources.

>>96116582
That's not being a hack, anon. As other anons point out with some systems you need to bear on the side of over-telegraphing rather than under.
One of the keys of DMing is making sure to provide the necessary tools for the players to succeed, including information. If they then choose to be retarded and ignore those tools then that's on them.

>GMs literally malding in the thread
Holy fuck I'm taking the escapepill, thanks OP

>>96145541
It's not cool to congratulate yourself, OP

>>96145563
Yeah if anything this has been depressing to read.
I've DMed and played for a little over a decade now and this only once been a problem. And that wasn't running away itself being an issue, but rather the player being a sperg and running from every single conflict and leaving the rest of the party holding the bag. Faggiest wizard I've ever seen.

>>96145638
Yeah, if the scenario was say a party getting their asses kicked by a particularly hard encounter and decide it's time to retreat, or a party getting a bunch of warning signs that they're facing a foe better avoided than fought, that wouldn't be an issue. Nor would it be baity enough. It's usually more like the scenario you presented, an otherwise normal encounter that the party collectively agrees to fight save for the one guy who decides his first action is to run away and leave the rest of them in the dust. And acting like they're super clever in doing so, when at best it's just a minor inconvenience on the rest of the table.

>>96102448
I was in one con game where we played as kids getting magic powers and my character was just supposed to tag along with other kids who he didn't even know and none of us even had any magic powers yet as a unifying thing. Like bro if a bunch of random kids I've never seen knocked my door when I was a kid I'd tell them to fuck off. Sure small kids would just be happy to play together with anyone but our characters were like 16. Of course I went with the plot but it was just dumb.

>>96102405 (OP)
This has been the best /tg/ thread in weeks, fantastic job OP. Truly a perfect example of how to catch flies with vinegar.

>>96102405 (OP)

I don't mind as long ALL the party agree in not fighting. Split parties are annoying to DM.

>>96147347
Split parties is gming on easy mode, what are you talking about?

>>96116515
My normal group pretty much just plays osr or horror. It is super deadly and my characters usually only last about 3 sessions. Tactics such as splitting the party while retreating is very common just to avoid tpks. All us players are just generally terrified to interact with anything or go willlingly into a fight at all unless we like trap the room before or some other asymettrical shenanigans are prepared. The group definately aims for the "no combat rolls" sessions. Which is what the DM wants I think. So he cant be mad if we get the willies and just nope the fuck out of a dungeon module 4 rooms in. Lol

>>96102412
Just the idea of it is getting meltdowns ITT.

>>96102405 (OP)
>player gets hit with a bad crit
>immediately flees, leaving the party behind
>in a crumbling floor fight
>with a turn-based timer
>that only the same player knew accurately
>he flees to the floor under
>doesn't make it in time because the party skipped exploring that floor and didn't open any doors
>gets buried as the ceiling drops
>meanwhile the party won the encounter without him and used magic to avoid falling
Karma's a bitch and I wasn't even aiming to punish him.

>>96102405 (OP)
that prevents the enemy from chasing you and stabbing you in the back?

>>96152239
I'm faster.

>>96152283
That’s how you get ambushed by enemy reinforcements, son

>>96152612
Not really.

>>96117260
>D&D provides basically zero mechanism for figuring out if a monster is out of your league
It's called system mastery, back in the day we used to reward players for good grasp of the game. Modern theatre kid audience just wants to act out their gay romance plots and the actual game and mastery of it has been forgotten.

>>96120869
Shit DM then. Of course people are allowed to houserule, but every houserule is to be clearly communicated before game even starts.
>be a rogue
>go backstab an orc
>uhhhhh ackshually orcs are constructs in my setting

>inb4 uhh that's a mechanical difference it's different
So is fiddling int scores of monsters, there are spells that interact with int thus it's relevant for the tactical choices players are making.

>>96116515
>Do you encourage metagaming and knowledge of monsters' hit dice / challenge rating?
Branding actually knowing the fucking game as le bad has been the most retarded cultural development in the history of ttrpgs.

>>96116515
the game is named "dungeons and dragons" so I have zero shame telling players "this monster is as fearsome as a young/adult/ancient dragon" and just letting players understand that's a rough guide of out-of-universe challenge rating. There's nobody who doesn't know what the fuck a dragon is and they conveniently have bracketed and level appropriate categories that span the breadth of adventuring careers. For a real life parallel it's kind of like gauging whether something is as dangerous as a black bear vs a brown bear vs a polar bear.

>>96154159
Most D&D players spend their entire careers never fighting a single dragon.

>>96102412
Ted
John
Alexandra
John's friend
Matt Mercer
the guy who works at the video rental store
Roy
my cousin
Collin
me

>>96154178
The average DnD party honestly can't deal with a dragon.

>>96116515
>How do you "telegraph" (as much as I hate that word) to players that they SHOULDN'T fight something?

Something like this.
>You come across a very large man guarding the way forward. No, on second look you realize it's some kind of giant, but it has two heads.
>It has a name over it's head labeling it as "Ettin".
>The color of the name is a deep purple.

>>96107078
I totally get not liking lone wolves leaving thier party to die, but

>Not allowing heroic last stands and holding back the overwhelming enemies while the rest of the group gets to safety

>>96147339
I feel terrible for you and /tg/ if this is the best you can think of.
No one in this thread goes beyond tepid, and nothing interesting happened. Everyone basically said "Oh yeah that's a faggot move, I guess I'd punish him some and move on."

>>96153726
the GM has no obligation to disclose these things before game. That's just a thing particularly autistic people want them to do or else they have a freakout.

>>96154053
>Branding actually knowing the fucking game as le bad has been the most retarded cultural development in the history of ttrpgs.
I agree, but some people also don't like le ebil metagaming, less so because it's cheating and more so because they don't feel like their character would have as much knowledge as they do. Other than forcing the group autist to always play the wizard with all the knowledge skills to explain him memorizing the Monster Manuals, you have to come up with some way to explain it. Or even in game turns.

Perhaps picking a well-known monster of CR 1, CR 3, CR 5, CR 7, CR 9, CR 13, and CR 17 to use as "benchmarks" would be good. Like, as tough as a bugbear, as tough as an ogre, as tough as a troll, or as a hill giant, or as a demon (a lot of them hover around CR 9) or something. But I don't know if, even if a PC knew about all of those monsters, and had heard of the mystery monster that they are fighting, if enough knowledge would exist about them to know what rough combat equivalent they are, since most people aren't aware of their own hit points and shit.

>>96157530
Probably just saw the number of responses and assumed it blew the fuck up when it didn't amount to much beyond a bunch of shrugs

>>96157633
very angry, seething shrugs

>>96159315
Cute try, but there’s barely any anger this thread beyond in your head

>>96157530
The funniest part is its 90% OP samefagging.

>>96153726
You don't get metagame knowledge, sorry. Play or sheet or go back to begging on roll20.

>>96159677
This entire thread is nothing but anger. Even you're malding right now.

>>96160051
Feel free to show me where, OP, cause I get you're trying to get ebbin upboats on reddit by bumping this rather sad thread

>>96160248
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

>>96160029
op's seething pretty hard, for some reason.

>>96102405 (OP)
>this much rage over just the idea of this happening
the reactions during a real game must be quite something

>he's still doing it
Embarrassing.

We need thread IDs.

>>96162214
and flags

>>96162214
I don't know how to tell you this, but the mods support and want spammers and trolls. They actively protect them.

>>96102448
I kind of break the con game last March
>Locked door
>Rolled critical success to open it in a d100 game
>GM told me to roll again
>Rolled 2nd critical
>What was intended as 2 hour walk-around ended in 15 minutes
I didn't even want to fuck it up.

>>96163808
Sounds like the GM is an idiot. Never give players a roll you aren't prepared for them to succeed or fail. Like the first fucking rule of this hobby.

This could easily have been solved by making the roll ridiculously penalized due to the complexity of the mechanism, or saying something as simple as "examining the lock with your expert knowledge, you realize there is no way to defeat this mechanism with the tools and time you have right now."

>>96160248
>>96102695
>>96102823
>>96102955
>>96103591
>>96105568
>>96105838
anyways you get the idea, just read the thread

>>96167940
If that's what you perceive anger looks like, this must be your first day on 4chan kiddo

>>96168382
pretending to be coy about it just makes you look angrier

>>96168533
Saying someone else is angry doesn't make them that.

Cause really, there's nothing to be angry about. It's just another bait thread. You get them here from time to time, you'll understand once you've lurked moar.

>>96164420
>saying something as simple as "examining the lock with your expert knowledge, you realize there is no way to defeat this mechanism with the tools and time you have right now."
That's a bit shitty too, better to reconceptualize the entire obstacle as something that isn't presented as a challenge a character archetype is designed to overcome.
>play a military themed game
>player has a sniper character
>"as you guys scan the enemy compound you see the enemy officer you were sent to take out" t:gm
>"I'll set up my rifle and see if an opportunity presents to take him out" t:player
>"nahh your expertise tells you he moves too erratically and it's too windy too, and by the way your rifle is inadequate to take him out at this range too"
Sounds a bit gay and lame, no?

>>96168560
case in point

>>96168647

Mod thread

>>96156912
That’s kind of the point. Dragons aren’t supposed to be balanced like random dungeon goblins. They're apex predators with centuries of prep time, lair actions, legendary resistances, and the tactical awareness of a paranoid chess grandmaster hopped up on amphetamines.

The "average party" is four murderhobos who argue over loot, forget to scout, and whose idea of strategy is "I run up and hit it." If you can routinely kill a dragon at level 7 without losing someone, your DM is nerfing them harder than 4e did.

That said, good parties—meaning ones that plan, scout, trap, and bait—can absolutely take on dragons. You want to fight a red dragon in its lair like a jackass? Congrats, you're barbecue. You lure it out, exploit its arrogance, and hit it with cold damage and status effects till it panics. Smart play wins fights, not "I cast fireball again."

Stop thinking dragons are just big loot pinatas. They're called the final boss of the Monster Manual for a reason.

>>96111815
Based and tactically pilled. If you're rolling initiative in a “balanced” fight, you already screwed up. You knew the enemy was there, right? You did scout the area, prep spells, maybe drop some caltrops or a glyph or two? No? Then yeah, enjoy your fair fight and early grave.

D&D isn't about fair fights. It’s about stacking the deck so hard in your favor that the enemy never stood a chance. Ambush them in their sleep. Poison their food. Collapse the ceiling. Trick the BBEG into wasting his 9th-level spell on an illusion. Hell, polymorph into a T-Rex in the middle of negotiations.

Fair fights are for paladins and people who don't live to level 5. The veterans are already flanking with advantage while the rogue rolls dice like a blender. Let the noobs die confused. That's how they learn.

>>96160033
Uggh. Me no need "metagame." Me have *pattern see brain*. When cave full of bones and shiny gold just laying out — that trap. That monster bait. Me not need gods of rulebook whisper in ear to know something smell like ogre butt.

You say “no think outside story,” but me say “no die stupid.” Tribe no get strong by walk into death hole blind. Shaman no touch glowing rock just because DM say “you feel compelled.” That how cousin Grug turn into ash pile.

You want fair fight? Go play rock-paper-club with squirrel. Me want *win*. You no like it? You roll dice with Roll20 beggars. Me and tribe already making plan to kill dragon in sleep.

>>96163744
Back in the day trolling used to be a art. These days I don't know why I even bother, nobody puts in any effort to counter-trolling, just "hurr durr nogaemz" or whatever is the buzzword of the month. There isn't this mutual satisfaction of taking the tangential idea to absurdity while fully aware neither actually thinks this way. I blame zoomers and gen alpha and their lack of media literacy. And that thing where they form their ideas based on whether people around them are okay with them having that idea, makes them unable to entertain the hypothetical.

>>96160051
Thunder! Listen well, feline! This thread may be filled with fire, but I, Lion-O, shall not be consumed by it! We stand strong against the storm! And Snarf—enough of your incessant chatter! Silence, or face the wrath of the Lord of the ThunderCats! Now, back to our fight—justice must prevail!

>>96168741
>—
AI post.

>>96154159
Haha, I love the comparison—it's like the "Safety Dance" of game design: everyone knows the basic steps, and you just need to keep dancing to the beat. Using dragons as a rough guide for challenge ratings is a clever way to keep the rhythm going, just like the song's chorus—simple, recognizable, and everyone stays in sync.

And just like the "Safety Dance" reminds us to have fun and not take things too seriously, framing monsters with familiar categories helps players gauge danger without getting bogged down in details. It’s all about staying in step, knowing when to lead and when to follow, and making sure everyone’s having a good time while still respecting the rhythm of the game.

>>96154178
Really? That’s your take? "Most D&D players spend their entire careers never fighting a single dragon"? Wow, talk about missing the point. If that’s how you see it, then maybe you’re missing the point of what makes D&D great. It’s not just about slaying dragons; it’s about the stories, the exploration, the character growth, and the camaraderie.
And to quote a certain purple dinosaur—**"I love you, you love me, we’re a happy family"**—because that’s what D&D should be, a happy, collaborative experience, not just a grind to kill the big bad.
Fighting dragons is just one part of the tapestry, a pinnacle for some campaigns, but not the end-all, be-all. Not every hero’s journey involves slaying a dragon; sometimes it’s about solving mysteries, navigating political intrigue, or surviving the wilderness.
So no, most players don’t fight dragons — and that’s totally fine. It’s about the adventure, the characters, and the memories you make along the way, not just the dragons you slay. So, maybe next time, instead of dismissing the game, try appreciating the variety and depth it offers—because, like Barney says, **"This is the way we wash our hands"**—there’s more to D&D than just monsters!

>>96156912
Average DnD party consists of dangerhaired trannies and numales who got to the hobby through critical role and are more interested in improv theater acting out gay sex scenes ingame than mastering the game, being incompetent is a given.

>>96168711
Based grug, would run games for and reward grug for knowing his shit.

>>96157535
KABROK! KABROK! Listen, listen! This isn’t about some weird thing autistic people want, it’s about respect and communication, okay? KABROK! The GM has a *duty* to create a fair, fun, and understanding environment! KABROK! You don’t just keep everyone in the dark and expect everything to go smoothly—no, that’s not how it works! KABROK! People have different needs and ways of processing information, and if the GM doesn’t disclose important details beforehand, it can cause real stress, anxiety, and *freakouts*! KABROK! That’s not some special demand—it's basic courtesy! KABROK!

And honestly, if you think it’s just “autistic people” who want transparency, you’re missing the point—this is about building trust! KABROK! Every player deserves to know what they’re walking into, especially if certain details could trigger a meltdown or ruin their experience. KABROK! That’s not a freakout; that’s just being considerate and adult about it! KABROK!

So, next time, instead of dismissing these concerns, maybe think about how communication makes the game better for everyone. KABROK! Respect the players, respect the game! KABROK! And, **KABROK!** remember, always, always, prioritize kindness and clarity!

>seething so hard he started spamming AI posts

>>96168770
Ug! Grug good! Grug run game! Grug teach others! Grug make game fun! When Grug know stuff, grug give big reward! Ugh! All tribe happy! Grug strong! Grug smart! Grug keep tribe safe! Ugh! Grug share knowledge! Grug make everyone proud! Ug! Good job, Grug!

>>96147347
Ah, foolish mortal, your pleas for harmony echo faintly within the shadows of chaos. Mumm-Ra, the Ever-Living, has seen many worlds torn asunder by discord and strife, and he shall tell you—unity is a fragile illusion, easily shattered by the seeds of dissent. To expect all your party to agree is to wish for a world untouched by the chaos of mortal passions—an impossible dream, a sanctuary never to be found.

Yet, heed my warning: the path of peace is paved with peril. When split, the party’s strength diminishes, and the darkness of confusion seeps in, making the DM’s task a treacherous dance of balancing multiple threads of fate. Do not underestimate the power of conflict; it forges stronger bonds through trial and tribulation, and from chaos, order may yet emerge—though not without cost.

Remember, mortal, even the mightiest warriors and wisest sages have their differences. It is through struggle that true growth manifests, and through discord that true resolve is revealed. To suppress all fighting is to deny your party the crucible of true camaraderie. Instead, embrace the tumult, channel it, and forge your destiny with the resolve of the eternal darkness. For in the grand design, the shadow always seeks to find balance—by embracing conflict, you may find strength, not weakness.

So, beware the illusion of perfect harmony, for even the darkness has its own symphony. Choose wisely, lest you be consumed by the chaos you seek to tame.

>>96147506
Ah, mortal, you think splitting parties is akin to gming on “easy mode”? How naive! It’s like facing the legendary Assault on the Control Room in Halo: Combat Evolved—an iconic, brutal encounter that tests every ounce of skill and resolve. In that mission, the UNSC Marines and Spartans are scattered, fighting on multiple fronts, each with their own dangers and chaos. It’s chaos by design, a symphony of conflict where coordination and cunning are paramount.

To believe that splitting your party is “easy mode” is to dismiss the very chaos that makes victory meaningful. Just as the Halo mission demands strategic planning amidst chaos—covering different angles, managing resources, and adapting on the fly—so too does running a party split. It’s not a crutch; it’s a test of mastery, a way to draw out the true strength of your team, much like the Spartans and Marines battling through the flood, Covenant, and terrain.

In “Assault on the Control Room,” splitting forces is dangerous, but it’s also necessary to overcome insurmountable odds. The chaos forces players to think, adapt, and cooperate—or be destroyed. So, dismissing splitting as “easy mode” is like claiming the Halo campaign is a walk in the park—blind to the true challenge, the chaos that forges heroes from mere mortals. Remember, mortal, chaos is the crucible where legends are forged, whether in Halo’s legendary battles or your own adventures.

>>96102405 (OP)
This is why I design my campaigns with encounters early on that are well and truly balanced against the players. Where the only good answer is to realize they're outmatched and retreat. I find it's a good way to break complacent gaming syndrome and get people engaged instead of having them treat it like a vidya. Gets them thinking strategically instead of in terms of raw numbers, too, because there is no greater joy than seeing players leverage the terrain or something in an unconventional but effective tactic instead of playing like it's an MMO. Good roleplaying moments with certain characters having to deal with defeat/failure. Stupid players who aren't paying attention or are used to DM's pulling punches get killed and learn a valuable lesson. The party starts thinking about how to prepare for encounters instead of walking blindly into every fight. And then I get to bring the same encounter back later on when they're more powerful for catharsis that grounds those level-ups in something meaningful.

>>96168917
Sadly, the example OP is using as bait isn't for a party having to learn when to pick and choose their battles, or for the kind of player who opts to use traps and long range tactics to ensure fights are done on their terms. It's for the kind of player who tries to "skip" every battle and leaving the others in the lurch, but still get a reward for his "smart" playing. The kind that don't inform their game master they're going to build a character focused on stealth and ambush tactics so that they can receive a proper environment built to supplement such tactics.

Usually those kind of guys aren't really being clever, they're just kind of wasting people's times and getting huffy when nobody compliments them on how they're being "smart", and rather than just leave for a game that's meant to reward them for using the environment to their full advantage just keep trying to cheese encounters, and then eventually make threads complaining how their party is dragging them down for "playing like cavemen". Sad state of affairs, really, cause everyone should be in the kind of game they prefer, and anyone that wants to go full stealth gameplay should go into one that is that from the start rather than demand a more straightforward hex crawler like for example D&D to contort itself into that for them.

>>96168972
How would you know that?

>>96172264
From playing games

>>96172296
How come playing games didn't make me psychic?

you need to give your players reasons to fight, either because they need to take a hostage for a hostage exchange, Intel, maybe they need to get the macguffin, maybe they just want revenge, whatever.
my players are theatre kids so they tend to avoid any fight that they can avoid, and I love that since I find combat to often be boring without a gimmick to spice it up.

>>96172306
Haven't gotten your cleric to the 8th level to learn the mind bondage spell yet. Keep practicing

>>96102405 (OP)
>specialize in escapes and stealth
What are some good Pathfinder builds for this?