Thread 96116238

True believers edition

>Previous conclave:
>>96108179

>HH 3.0 Leaks
https://imgur.com/a/jYokLre
https://files.catbox.moe/98h6h7.pdf
https://litter.catbox.moe/9zh539zknqu9vqso.pdf
https://gofile.io/d/cnJk0N

>New Edition upon us
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/setting/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Thread FAQ (very old, remembers Age of Terra)
https://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
https://pastebin.com/8riDmnhS
>30k TACTICA & TIPS
https://pastebin.com/Tm2P4QLp
https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Age_of_Darkness-Warhammer_30k/2.0_Tactics/General_Tactics

『Adeptus Titanicus and Legions Imperialis』
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/legions-imperialis/
>List of Titan Legions with Badges and Colours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Jccq0V--SwJifLVLwbisYnQeqLlS2pMSiPbGXp1Brs/htmlview
>More lists
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Titan_Legions
>What size magnets do I need?
5x1mm
>Tactics
https://1d6chan.miraheze.orug/wiki/Adeptus_Titanicus/Tactics

>Thread question:
What are you predicting for the preview?

>>96116238 (OP)
>What are you predicting for the preview?
New cata terminators, skitarii, custodes and maybe cumboat diass.

>>96116240
>>96116244
spartans are extremely durable now and have very effective anti dread/teq/vehicle firepower because of their lascannon arrays. hh3 will see spartans return to prominence like in 1.0

Who are the best Legion specific terminators for you ?

>>96116262
>very effective anti dread/teq/vehicle
>lascannons are d1 unless the firing unit stands still or has specific unit types that spartans don't have
bro, you're high

>>96116238 (OP)
>TQ

How bionic should Iron Hands be?
Are we talking maybe 1-2 limbs per squad? Or should everyone dude be rocking some form of augmetic?

>>96116238 (OP)
>What are you predicting for the preview?
Skittles, terminators and Custard creams.

I'll have to wait till next year for my Charonites.

>>96116281
hey retard, the spartan's lascannon arrays are damage 3 all the time so yeah the spartan is probably the best lascannon platform in the game

>>96116238 (OP)
Proper reveals for the Mk II assault marines, cataphractii terminators, and breacher upgrade kit, with new tartaros as a bonus

>>96116273
Best in terms of functions? Probably Space Yiff's Varagyrs. Favorite-looking? Phoenix Guard. Pity they're only Tartaros with a measly 5++
At least Skill Unmatched isn't a total noob trap now.

>>96116273
Sehkmet, now that they get good powers, and the terminator weapons and cool kohpesh blades, AND they're not bullshit OP, AND the TS aux detachment lets you take 1 squad.
They're gonna need a new kit though if the current cataphractii are getting replaced.

>an armory with no armaments
This page makes me sad. No weapons, no armor, no consularis upgrade, no bespoke psychic discipline, no nothing. They went from two and a half pages' worth of stuff to this.

>>96116291
Scales with how long they've been fighting and how crazy they are.

Augmetics are earned through a long life of violence.

>>96116307
>the best lascannon platform
lmao imagine believing this when the kratos exists

>>96116262
>have very effective anti dread/teq/vehicle firepower because of their lascannon arrays
Anon it has 4 shots without twin linked.
Against terminators it kills like 1 per turn. You dont even kill a predator per turn when it comes to anti-vehicle firepower.

For 400pts? They can basically just ignore it.
If you want a scary gun-tank, you have the spartan. The one with a S10 melta(24) cannon and a bunch of lascannons. It even costs less that the spartan.

>>96116281
Lascannon arrays are 2 shots, s9, d3.
They can swap for laser destroyers (imo the better option) that are 2 shots, s10, d2, heavy(d)

>>96116221
Vulkan seems indeed busted. Someone had to be the new posterboy you know.

>>96116243
>And losing at it, because theyre down a massive number of points because they spent them all on a justaerin bus.
>20 tacs is 200pts
>20 tacs to stand in front of them and bodyblock is 200pts
>it's a four round game

>>96116342
Please understand anon, GW is a small company, they had to save all that for the free pdf.

>>96116345
the kratos is trash

>>96116334
>Best in terms of functions? Probably Space Yiff's Varagyrs.
I think ebon keshig do their job but better.

Theyre faster (can run, dont have a 2" (4" for space wolves) setup, can follow up on opponents), are good at beating the same units varagyr will kill in melee (so not other terminators, but like "stuff") and have a solid vanguard stat + expendable so they dont give up many points in return.

>>96116351
>s10, d2, heavy(d)
and on a vehicle, so just d3

>>96116334
Skill Unmatched is utter trash, it's half of +1 WS (only offense or only defense) while in return phoenixes are the only shitty 2 attack legion terminators and every other legion gets 3-5 attacks instead.
Phoenix Terminators would need to have WS6 on both at the same time to justify having only 2 attacks.

>>96116262
>4 shots
>3 hits
>3 wounds
You're killing 2 dudes a turn.

>>96116370
Nope. Vehicles arent immune to heavy rules unless theyre superheavy or have the stable subtype (the spartan doesent, the kratos does)

Still no knights leaks?

>>96116366
>disrespecting the 2 shot d8 melta at 24"
>disrespecting the 4 lascannons at d2
lmaoing @ ur expense

>>96116370
Don't think the rules say vehicles always count as stationary. That's a thing in older editions, but not 3.0

>>96116359
>I know I overspent on justaerin, but let me try and swarm 40 tacticals onto every objective (no transport since theyre 20 man units)
>No I cant support them because I spent 1/3 of my army on terminators and 1/2 on tactical marines
Is this performance art?

>>96116357
someone had to be the best fighting primarch, but Vulkan shouldn't have been it.
Konrad Curze beat him up a thousand times until he got so bored of it he let his guard down.
Magnus, the nerd, distracted with 80% of his psychic powers being busy attacking the Emperor, still managed to beat Vulkan for probably hundreds or thousands of times inside the Warp, but since Vulkan has infinite respawns and Magnus was wrestling with the Emperor, the greatest psyker in the universe, Vulkan eventually wins after Magnus kills him hundreds of times with a flick of the wrist.

Vulkan should be the weakest primarch but everytime he dies he goes into Reserve and can come back on a flank next turn.

>>96116388
its trash bro. spartan has 2 lascannons + 4 d3 lascannons + a unit of whatever you want inside it

3 spartans with tactical blobs or whatever other cheap line/vanguard junk in them would actually do well this edition

>>96116385
Knights and Auxilia are the communities unloved step kids. We've got the shills hype posts till release day unfortunately.

Its a shame, knights are cool.

>>96116371
Current Skill Unmatched is awful. That's why I called it a noob trap.
New Skill Unmatched doesn't cost an attack.

>>96116385
>WS 4
That's all you need to know. Knights are DOA.

>>96116402
damn, does the unit inside come for free :) ?

>>96116402
Don't forget the missile and the pintle mount.

>>96116421
yeah basically, they also give you VPs unlike the junky kratos. anuj's stupid abortion of a tank.

>>96116419
>most interesting part about knights is the auxilliary detachments you can unlock

>>96116238 (OP)
Reposting for more answers,
Thinking about starting Mechanicum as my first 2.0 force (or allying them with AL) to mostly play against my friends WS’. Anybody suggest a good place to start with them?

Also post mech models

>>96116366
The kratos is now probably the premiere "tank fighter" in the game. Its every bit as durable as the spartan, cheaper, and has one of the nastiest guns in the game that isnt tied to a superheavy. Hell, it has a chance at winning fights with some superheavies.


>>96116399
Its big horus, its always big horus as the best fighting primarch. You just arent beating that stat difference + FNP

>>96116418
GW just stole the attack from you beforehand instead of giving you a choice. You've been buttfucked.

>>96116419
kek knights losing combat to literally any ws5 unit is going to be hilarious

>>96116430
>trusting the advice of a cheater
damn why should I

>>96116445
I mean, that's what knights have been doing for all of 2.0 already

>>96116436
Start with thallax

>>96116438
well yeah, obviously we exclude BigHorus from any primarch discussion since he's not a primarch anymore he's Emperor-level.

>>96116438
the kratos is junk you might as well take a cerberus or a typhon instead since they cost basically the same and are better.

that melta cannon needs a fucking 5+ to actually do damage to av14 lol

>>96116402
>spartan has 2 lascannons
That are always D1

>4 d3 lascannons
Which is barely anything, especially at its price point.

>a unit of whatever you want inside it
Adding even more points onto the already overpriced tank.

All the "IMPERIUM ARE THE GOOD GUYS!!!" retards would disappear instantly if you simply depicted the imperium as the brown favela-dwelling designated shitting world thirdies they are

>>96116443
Being only 3 attacks is what they had on the charge anyways with the spears in 2e. I'm just annoyed the squad leader is only 3 attacks also instead of 4.

>>96116455
bro it's s10 bc kratos has stable

>>96116457
>Which is barely anything, especially at its price point.
its better damage output than the shitty kratos but ok lmao

>>96116402
Fielding a fully mechanised list could be pretty fun but if you're using Spartans you may as well bring despoilers instead of Tacticals. May as well not waste the assault ramp, they're both line 2 anyway.

>>96116438
>Its big horus
At 850 he ought to be. But Vulkan sitting at 465 and being impossible to bring down due to Salies trait, eternal warrior 3 and an overpowered gambit, while having a dmg3/4 hammer is something else. He also wipes the floor with regular horus.

>>96116458
You got the wrong spot, fag, >>>/40k/ is down that way.

>>96116468
so you need a 3+ then a 4+ then they need to not roll their smokescreen and even then you dont 1 shot the av14. the cerberus blows the kratos out of the water for basically the same points

>>96116436
Thallaxii are based. Start with them.

>>96116258
>skitarii
A) they aren't skitarri, they're plastic secutarii
B) because skitarii aren't in the liber they're DLC
Choose whichever makes you sadder

>>96116436
You better be quick about it, you only have a week left to do it.

>>96116455
>you might as well take a cerberus or a typhon instead since they cost basically the same
Both of them are substantially more expensive. You know what they do cost similar to? A spartan.
>needs 5+ to hurt AV14
Its S10 you moron (the kratos, unlike the spartan, always gets the benefit of being stationary). Within melta range (all 24" of it) it also has armorbane.

>>96116472
lmao.

>kratos into Av14
2*2/3*1/2*8+4*2/3*1/3*2 = 7 hull points worth of damage

>spartan into Av14
2*2/3*1/3*1+4*2/3*1/3*3 = 3 hull points worth of damage

But that isnt fair right? Cant expect the spartan (that costs more than the kratos) to do well into armor can we! They should try killing terminators instead (or something), right? Guess what, the kratos is better at that too, because at least its big gun can actually oneshot terminators, also it has an autocannon.

Kinda wacky that DG are supposedly all about resilient infantry blobs but have no unique breacher unit. What was Bligh thinking?

>>96116484
I like how you're not even advocating for the spartan anymore bc you know it's trash

None of this discussion matters both tanks lose to 6 laser destroyer rapiers. Tanks have been raped even harder than last edition

>>96116503
Probably about how lame breachers are.

>>96116502
>2*2/3*1/2*8+4*2/3*1/3*2 = 7 hull points worth of damage
so what you are saying is that its ineffective at the only thing its supposed to do lmao.

>>96116528
Easily killing a tank more expensive than it? Does that pretty well. It will get through 800pts worth of spartans over the game.

>>96116438
>2 shots
>S10 AP2 D4 Melta 24"
I'm not impressed honestly. Surely you'd be better off with 2 predators instead?

>>96116503
breachers just get no love to speak of
still waiting for triarii

imagine being so dumb that you bought anuj's shitty tank instead of an actual super heavy. lmao

>>96116402
>3 spartans
Bro that's like half your points.
That said, lascannon arrays are giga AT in this edition, where simple damage matters.

What are people's thoughts on AT this edition? Specifically AT vs all the av14 bricks.

Standard lascannons don't really cut the mustard unless you have A LOT, while all the giga powerful AT seems to be mounted on av14 brick units to begin with... so whats the best way of dealing with mass av14 without your own av14 AT blapper?

>>96116535
melta preds are one shot AND have to be within 8 inches, they're awful

>>96116533
>Easily killing a tank more expensive than it?
its a 4 turn game sis, the shitty kratos is getting like 1 shooting phase before the game ends.

>>96116528
How did you end up with 7 damage when the shots do either 4 or 8 damage you nigger

>>96116512
>both tanks lose to 6 laser destroyer rapiers.
What doesn't?

>>96116502
>Cant expect the spartan (that is a transport)

>>96116541
Hide in 3+ inches of medium terrain

>>96116551
i didnt do the math the kratos retard did. the kratos retard basically admitted that the kratos is medicore vs av14.

>>96116539
The kratos is the only tank that a decurion looks good in.

>>96116484
>the cerberus blows the kratos out of the water for basically the same points
The cerberus actually trades poorly with the spartan.

It does 6HP with its big laser blaster, but also does 2.5HP to itself (on average) every time it fires. Both it and the spartan end up with the same TTK on each other, except the spartan is cheaper and capable of doing damage to targets that arent "single big tank" (something the cerberus cant do)

Has our residential threadshitter already moved on from posting about how saturnine didn't sell out on some obscure third party webstore, to baiting with shitty takes about units in 3.0? I'm kinda disappointed honestly.

>>96116541
>so whats the best way of dealing with mass av14
Buy your tax units for the new edition, piggy.

>>96116550
>its a 4 turn game sis
So thats four turns of shooting, because god knows the worthless spartan on the other side isnt killing it.

>>96116273
I find it odd that Word Bearers have no Termies.

Their Gal vorbak thingys are just 3+ with no options so they are pretty shitty for an elite that costs 50 points a model.

>>96116574
theres this thing called line of sight, sis. if you actually played the game you would know about it :).

functionally all the av14 bricks are unkillable in this goofy 4 turn game

>>96116551
Thats how averages work. Fire the guns enough times and it will average out to each shooting phase doing 7 HP worth of damage.

>>96116503
breachers are the gayest unit ever to come out of 30k retconning, the setting was far better without them. And a slow fatty shieldwall would be entirely helpless against grenades, grenade launchers, phosphex, flamethrowers, special weapons like plasma and melta and disintegrators, and extra worthless against heavy weapons like lascannons, rocket launchers, heavy bolters and autocannons. That's before even bringing tanks and artillery pieces into the picture.

>>96116590
>theres this thing called line of sight, sis
Awww buddy, think youre hiding your giant 700pts brick with its m10? Adorable!

>>96116597
Weak bait, have this pity (You)

>>96116597
terminal shit taste
>b-b-buh they dont make sens-
don't care. shields are cool.

>>96116545
Not talking about melta preds, just like predators in general.

A pair of annihilators seem like they'd do a satisfactory job as anti armour from a "safer" distance though that might just be my preference for smaller tanks speaking.

>>96116599
i can literally drive my av14 brick into cover and be invisible because of the stupid terrain rules

>>96116342
All that empty space is just infuriating

>>96116503
Cause you walk faster without a big shield, silly anon. That being said, I wish despoilers had combat shield access

>>96116615
>i can literally drive my av14 brick into cover
And fail to make it to the objectives by the end of the game?

>>96116342
I wonder if the rest is just done in invisible ink that can only be seen by holding it up to candle light.

>>96116616
sorry bro we couldnt fit any extra rules or equipment options in the books
t. GW

>>96116599
If there's 3" of area terrain between me and you then you literally cannot see me.

>>96116622
the objectives are in cover. nobody is scared of your kratos doing 5 hull points in a shooting phase kek.

>>96116459
Before you could charge for 3 attacks. That's gone now. They've robbed you and given you a consolation prize of having only half of WS6. Least they could've done is given full WS6.

Now even if you charge they deal even less damage. 3 attacks hitting on 4+s in old phoenix charge would've been 1.5 avg hits. 2 attacks hitting on 3+ in nuPhoenix is 1.3 avg hits. Even without them stripping one more from the sarge on top of that, you're celebrating losing 12.5% of your power.

Havent seen any terminator screwed harder than nuPhoenixes.

>>96116613
The issue is scale of damage. A predator annihilator needs to sit still, and then it has 4 lascannon shots. Into Av14 each lascannon has only a 1/3 chance of doing any damage (and you only hit 2/3 of the time). It just doesent kill big tanks well.
The melte blast cannon or whatever its called takes big chunks out of them.

>>96116626
Sorry sis, thats light terrain :^)

can some kindanon link the pdf to the 2.0 rules? i want to start building an iron warriors force

>>96116622
Your objectives don't have cover?

Did knights dominus come back? Can moirax be played in a Questoris force yet?

Knights need to leak more.

>>96116536
What do you mean, IH, UM and IF have special breacher units, lurk moar

>>96116574
Turn 1 or 2 you should be able to get a round with the Spartan out of LoS. Kratos can kill it round 3 as long as it does absolutely nothing to get a cover save or the like. Call that dead in bottom of three, the Kratos spends its entire points to deny the Spartan one round of shooting. The Spartan, in the meantime, dumps a unit of Vanguard (4) into the enemy Line (4) and blends them off its opponent's objective.
(Note for when the Kratos shoots it - Spartan's weapons are all Defensive)

>>96116597
I think the breach is a kino throwback to the roman legionaries and the testudo

>>96116636
nobody is going to agree to pardo's retarded "everything is light terrain" cope. yeah dude lets just remove all terrain from the game by making everything a 6+ save because GW is retarded XD

>>96116637
No, play 1.0.

>>96116631
* oh, and a reminder, the half a WS from Phoenix Suckinators becomes entirely meaningless against a WS7 enemy like a primarch/sigismund/kharn/sevatar/Corswain type, who you now lose 1 of your 3 attacks without any benefit as WS5 and WS6 both hit primarchs on 5+ and get hit by them on 3+ anyway.

>>96116657
based. we really should all move back to 1.0 as bligh intended.

>>96116631
They're 3 attacks base now.
And yes, they did get screwed by not having Murderous Strike, time will tell if Impact (D), i.e., going up to 2 Damage per swing on the charge, will make up for that.
>>96116660
Skill Unmatched doesn't lose an attack in 3rd ed.

>>96116654
no way that retard is advocating for there to be NO line of sight blocking terrain

>>96116597
>against grenades
these are marines, anon
>grenade launchers
these are marines, anon
>phosphex
yes, but exceptionally rare and dangerous
>flamethrowers
these are marines, anon
...
Do you know what the setting of Heresy is?

>>96116568
overload is such a fucked rule. The amount of damage units can do to themselves is frankly absurd.

Also the average of 1 pen per hit is not really as relevant as the probability of scoring 2 pens (or more) since that will insta kill pretty much everything thats not a super heavy.

>>96116671
he basically is. pardo's biggest complaint isnt that half of his models got their wargear removed, his main complaint is that the terrain rules are dumb as fuck. which, to be fair, the 4 turn game and retarded terrain rules are extremely stupid

>>96116273
the real best legion terminators are the friends we made along the way

>>96116657
>>96116664
ive got a rules repository for pretty much everything 1.0 in my drive. Let a nigga know if you want it.

>>96116647
>Turn 1 or 2 you should be able to get a round with the Spartan out of LoS
Yea, if you hide in your deployment zone and stay there. Great use of the 400pts tank with 600pts of terminators inside.

>. The Spartan, in the meantime, dumps a unit of Vanguard (4) into the enemy Line (4) and blends them off its opponent's objective.
It aspires to, and then maybe gets there by turn 4 since it spent half the game hiding instead of moving up the board. Meaning 1000pts of the army had literally zero impact on the game.

>Line (4)
tacticals are line(2), at least pretend to have read the rules.

>(Note for when the Kratos shoots it - Spartan's weapons are all Defensive)
By all means, waste your reaction on letting the spartan tickle something again.

>>96116668
the picture is 2A, and spear doesnt add an attack.

>>96116647
>spend half your points and four turns driving up the field
>finally disembark to charge
>enemy moves away, you fail charge because heavy, score consolation (1)VP

>>96116238 (OP)
>What are you predicting for the preview?
Still strongly predicting Skitarii Pilgryms.

>>96116657
Top move, king

>>96116639
Questoris finally get moriax but you need to take a specific prime slot to include up to 4 (all knights in a knight army are prime slots).
We might not have weapons or datasheets but we've got plenty of info.

>>96116647
exactly. even just spartans with tactical blobs in them are easily scoring a ton of VP and being a pain in the ass.

honestly it feels like 1.0 in that regard

>>96116634
2 predators have advantages to. The Kratos is only gonna melta one target a turn and is more susceptible to shock weapons like the many different Neutron profiles we have on hand. 24" also isn't so laborious a range to avoid and outside of that its damage drops quite sharply.

You are right about damage dropping sharply on moving annihilators though. A better fit would probably be bringing like, 4 neutron sabres, a suppressed tank may as well be dead for a turn anyway.

the 4 turn game means big vanguard deathstars, like justaerin, will easily dominate because they will get to snag a bunch of VP and then game ends before you can kill the deathstar. very dumb game mechanics

>>96116291
Slightly more than you would expect of any legionary of a given seniority. Don't accept GW's meme-tier retconning of them, pre-Heresy IH had more bionics than the norm because they're good at tech stuff and their mindset puts more value on a solution that can get you back in the fight after a couple of hours at a field hospital even at a modest cost in terms of the upper limit of your performance(bionics) rather than one that requires a couple of weeks sat about in a field hospital even if that results in flawless replacement(regrowth), not because they're coo-coo for coco puffs and need to techno-self harm.

>>96116497
We are sticking with 2.0

>>96116730
No it doesn't. Artillery was Str 10 and AP 2, and always hit on side armour. Those spartans would all get blown up in a turn, and the infantry would die instantly after. That is how games in 1.0 went.

>>96116769
That's as bad as moving into 3.0

HH 1.0 is the only good edition.

It's legitimately pathetic how quickly the social media drones have been SQUIRREL'd by the obviously planted Cata leak.

>>96116776
>Artillery was Str 10 and AP 2
yeah thats a good thing, its called the king of the battlefield for a reason. you are not smarter than alan bligh.

>>96116784
wtf is squirrel'd
is this like memory holing?

>>96116790
The point was the anon saying that spartans filled with tactical squads being a pain in the ass and scoring lots of VP felt like 1.0. Which is completely wrong, because it would take artillery two turns to turn it all into paste.

>>96116657
>>96116689
>>96116780
i got the rules for 1.0, but why do most anons prefer 1.0 to 2.0? i thought they were very similar systems

>>96116804
arty actually didnt do that well against spartans half the time they wouldnt even damage them and most of the time if they did it would only shake them

>>96116810
2.0 has reactions, which are gay, and has a lot of janky broken shit like brutal and lascannon spam + dreads being OP and vehicles being trash.

1.0 was more balanced with only artillery being actually OP, which makes sense narratively anyway since arty is OP irl.

>>96116691
>>96116716
What exactly is killing the spartan before it drives up the board and does its job?

Remember in this edition the spartan can move full speed, disembark full range, then charge.

You're getting 2 turns of shooting at best, and outside of super heavies or lucky rols with melta, what's taking out that spartan other than other av14 tanks?

>>96116810
>Shit internal balance in factions
>Shit balance between factions
>Shit WS chart
>Shit meta warping overpowered dreadnoughts
>Shit stratagem wannabe reactions
>Shit special rules like Brutal which the entire meta revolved around
>Lots of flavour and units/options from 1.0 gone
The foundation might be similar, but the execution was atrocious with 2.0. It basically played like an unfinished rules set, it was an incomplete product at best.

>>96116810
>i thought they were very similar systems
Other anon already answered, but while they're somewhat similar almost all the changes were bad. New units and a few special rule tweaks, but Mournival for 1.0 can cover most of the unit variety improvement anyway...

>>96116756
>needing to kill the deathstar.
JUSTS earn as many VP off clubbing tactical seals as tacticals earn doing nothing but standing on a point but cost far more to field and transport.

In most games your vanguard will be lucky to get more than one charge on an objective but line units will be able to hold objectives 2 turns fairly consistently.

Vanguard units are for flipping objectives and protecting their line units, you'd be better off with multiple cheaper vanguard squads to threaten multiple objectives over shoving your eggs in one basket like this.

3 squads of assault marines attacking 3 different objectives make more VP than one unit of JUSTS attacking one. Especially since gor most objective holders JUSTS are massive overkill.

Not that they don't have their place tho. JUSTs seem like they have potential protecting tacticals from weaker vanguards so they can continue scoring, their insane stats actually matter when fighting other melee units.

>>96116816
Artillery shat on spartans. A squadron of three medusa was cheaper than a spartan, shot three Str 10 AP 2 pie plates with ordnance, and all they had to do was stun, immobilise or explode the spartan, which made every penetrating hit a 50/50 on shutting down the spartan.

>>96116810
>>96116822
>>96116836
1.0 is honestly better, as long as you don't play with fucking nerds that spam 10 ap2 pie plates.

For that matter, every edition in terms of pure 'balance', there are always wack units/options/etc, but the actual rule system of 1.0 is just the better system.

No reactions - i.e. my unit of tacticals can go to ground or overwatch even if an unrelated unit on the otherside of the board also did something 'reactive'.
No cursed brutal (and everything being 2 wounds which made them think it was needed)
WS table means elite units can be overwhelmed by massed mooks.
Cover actually fucking works, and is a significant factor, where as it become much weaker in 2.0 and 3.0
Much more flavour/options (even many of the things kept in 2.0 were neutered severely in legacies to the point of being completely useless)

>>96116849
>Artillery shat on spartans. A squadron of three medusa was cheaper than a spartan

Because medusas were hilariously undercosted and spammable for how good they are. Massed barrage s10 ap2 ordinance pie plates is OP against basically everything anon, and you're a fag for bringing that many.

>>96116844
>In most games your vanguard will be lucky to get more than one charge on an objective but line units will be able to hold objectives 2 turns fairly consistently.
everybody is going to be running tacticals, including the deathstar player, so the difference maker is the big vanguard deathstar that clears the objective for 5VP and that 5VP is what flips the game into a win for the deathstar player.

>>96116862
I didn't, I always was on the receiving end. Oh and nine quad mortars with phospex shells too.

>>96116849
most 1.0 metas had agreed on 2 ap2 pieplates being the limit. if you took more than 2 medusas youd get bullied

>>96116849
Yeah, in 1.0 it was artillery and in 2.0 it was dreadnoughts but there has never been a HH edition which didn't have one strategy be disgustingly overpowered.

Wonder what everyone will be complaining about when 3.0 actually arrives, well other than the fact that 3.0 exists that is.

>>96116844
>charge
This is why you blast them with flamers so they can't claim VP

i was watching one of the youtube shill's batreps and they had the classic "oh i cant shoot at your unit with my tacticals because you'll return fire and rape me" moments, lmao. its like 3.0 decided to keep the shittiest mechanics from 2.0. such a great mechanic not being able to actually use your units during your own turn lol

>>96116871
THen why even bother playing WAAC fags in the first place?

Obnoxious IW players that just spammed 500 medusas and phosphex launchers were the literal lowest of the low players in 1.0, and I cannot see how that would ever be fun for either player.

>>96116896
Because at least it wasn't as much of an uphill battle as having to play against mechanicum. The only alternative was not playing at all.

>>96116865
How will they get there? Deepstrike wouldn't work because the enemy will literally forfit the point to JUSTs rather than let them take it so they'll be in a transport.

What transport tho? The Storm Eagle is the safest option but lacks the distance to rush up turn 2 while the Spartan gets hard countered by Gravguns and can be focused down.

Sometimes the spartan will weather the shooting. Move up and blow its load sure but sometimes its just gonna die or be pinned instead.

Even when they do push up you're spending like, a third of your army on a single unit to take one point, blowing through a single tactical squad in the process. Your opponent still has options on other objectives he can pivot to and your Spartans never surviving long enough to move your ass again.

2 successful assault marine charges and the points difference is down to 1 VP. the game has plenty of ways to make 1 VP without having to interact with your terminator brick.

>>96116512
Your laser destroyer rapiers lose to basic bolters

>>96116553
Assault marines easily kill the gunners and then the Rapiers die automatically.

>>96116941
>Sometimes the spartan will weather the shooting. Move up and blow its load sure but sometimes its just gonna die or be pinned instead.
nothing is stopping the spartan

>>96116687
Man I hope fulmentarus don't suck this edition
I don't need them to be good, just not cost 300p for the equivalent of 1 plasma shot per guy...
It'd be nice if they could take autocanons again

>>96116810
It was there longer and now=bad
1.0 had plenty of infuriating issues just like 2.0 had and 3.0 is looking to have

>>96116964
They were too good in early 2.0

>>96116985
And completely unplayable in the second half
It's about time they find a middle ground...

>>96116889
Let's just hope that GW doesn't errata return fire to shoot before the unit causing the reaction gets to shoot again....

>>96116951
Lol, even if the Spartan gets you to the point you want turn 2 its never going to live to turn 3, its not magic.

You either spend 1k points to make 5 VP turn 2 and hope 2k of your army can fight like, 2.8k of your opponents during turns 3 and 4 or you hide the Spartan and hope you can make it to turn 4 with only a 4 point difference in VP while 1k points down so you can swoop in for a decisive final victory. Neither option worries me.

If your opponent holds 2 objectives turn 2 because he's effectively fighting a 2k army list then he makes 6VP that turn. You make 5 VP pushing him off one of them and he's still got the advantage on you going into turn 3.

Deathstars are only going to work in missions which support them.

>>96117011
its hilarious that you think having a deathstar means you cannot also have line units. very funny

>>96117017
You'll have 1k fewer line units than your opponent will, you won't be line scoring with your own tactical squad until turn 3 and the enemy still controls the other point, you're still behind.

>>96117024
yeah because you need 3000 points of line units just to score objectives. hilarious

>>96117007
Has Return Fire been reduced to Snap Shots (as it should be) or is it still full BS?

You know with how much people are posting about how the terrain rules make one thing or another unplayable I'm beginning to get concerned we're not playing with the right amounts or types of terrain, this is a pic of a 2.0 game but it's about average for what we bring in terms of terrain, is this not about right?

>>96117032
NTA he's 100% correct, every single player bringing a 1k strugglebus in 3E will simply be losing instantly, but it doesn't affect me as 3E is such a worthless set of rules I'll never bother using it.

>>96117039
No, Return Fire still lets everyone shoot back at full power, counting as stationary (so more than full power while moving) and even if the enemy shooting kills them, they still shoot. Correct, 3rd edition couldn't even fix one single thing wrong with the game.

with how lax the allies rules seem to be I don’t think I even need to “choose” which of my armies to play when list building
I’ll just play them all

>>96117040
definitely not enough LOS blocking

>>96117032
And you need 1000 points of vanguard to take one objective?

Boyz before Toyz. A list with redundancy has fewer points of failure than a list which lacks redundancy.

>>96117065
>And you need 1000 points of vanguard to take one objective?
yeah because you cant do anything to stop it

>>96117070
I really don't need to. I have the other objectives instead.

>>96116982
So rules of 1.0, Points, RoW and exemplary battles of 2.0? Would that work?

>>96117040
Replace some of those small creates and stuff with bigger buildings.

>>96117011
>You either spend 1k points to make 5 VP turn 2 and hope 2k of your army
The Spartan is 400 points, nigger. Your tanks knocking it out turn three don't delete the termies who already charged out too.

>>96117080
you dont have the other objectives. i have the other objectives with my line units which you cant do anything about because you dont have a vanguard 4 dick kicker unit rolling around doing whatever they want

>>96117086
2.0 added nothing of value. we already had all that shit in 1.0

>>96117065
>A list with redundancy has fewer points of failure than a list which lacks redundancy.
More, but less significant.

>>96117040
>is this not about right?
The technical term for what this is is "shooting gallery".

>>96116238 (OP)
>Thread question:
>What are you predicting for the preview?
Disappointment

>>96117091
Justaerin deathstar is disgustingly expensive when you take all the fancy bells and whistles, I've been counting that too.

>>96117092
You have a vanguard 4 dick kicker unit stood next to 10 dead tacticals and a burning Spartan. I have multiple vanguard 2 units kicking the shit out the rest of your army which you can't do anything about because you're slow as shit and your transports dead.

Do we have drop pod rules yet?

>>96117040
30k, especially modern version(s) are very lethal.
We have high point limits, powerful shooting reactions and weak cover. This makes t1 shooting obliterating one side a lot easier.

Its not a 'wrong' amount of terrain anon, but generally I would say yes, have more terrain, especially stuff that can block LOS even for larger models/bigger units.

Thats not to say what you're using is bad, but if you chuck in a very shooty list at 3k points on there, and they could easily end the game t1.

>>96116941
>Sometimes the thing will work. Do the thing but sometimes it's not gonna work instead.
Wow, this is the kind of deep analysis I come to /hhg/ for!

>>96117117
no, they mishapped and scattered into the dumpster on arrival

>>96117120
No, that is a very bad amount of terrain. No proper setup should have that many clear lines of fire between both sides.

>>96117040
Good lord. Yeah you need way more terrain senpai.

>>96117116
>I have multiple vanguard 2 units
they got raped by my vanguard 4 unit thats ws5 sorry lil fella

>>96117092
justaerin blob wins one or two small fights then game ends. It's 1000 points to do literally nothing but get stopped by a 200 point roadblock. If games lasted 6-9 turns like good40k, justaerin strugglebus would be able to earn its 1000 points back. In a 4 turn long game it doesnt do the slightest thing even if the enemy doesnt just immobilize your transport on turn 1 and instantly lose you the game.

Anyone written any lists for the new edition list?
can be a meme list, a budget list, or the sweatiest meta chasing list ever written. I wanna see them all.

>>96117117
Only 1 per turn, must deep strike (obviously). Dreadclaws are good though as theyre flyers.

>>96117213
>must deep strike
>can't deep strike
Sasuga GW sama

>>96117208
>justaerin blob wins one or two small fights then game ends.
yeah and scores 5-10 points and wins the game

>>96117040
in HH3 that board is entirely unplayable. The same crates aren't gonna stop basically any shooting unit from seeing the edge of 1 single model and being allowed to kill all 10-20 of the unit because they saw 1.

>>96117218
No, it wins one or two small fights off the objective because the enemy had 1000 points of faster moving models to keep it off the objective. That's the part you're too retarded to comprehend.

>>96116351
ok so the spartan is a scarier gun-tank than the spartan, but what about the spartan? it's got a big-ass plasma array on top and it movies fast

>>96117217
You... think it can't deep strike?

>>96117229
It doesn't have the deep strike rule

>>96116273
Red Butchers now having Eternal Warrior is pretty rad, makes them insanely tanky for what its worth. Sure most of them only get power axes, but your also twice as survivable into most things, so it evens out.

>>96117227
>1000 points of faster moving models
none of your dogshit units are faster moving than a spartan that can move and disembark the justaerin lol. you act like anything can actually stop a spartan from easily dropping them onto your objective. the spartan only needs like 1 turn of movement

>>96117230
Look, very carefully

>>96117212
Here's my test AL list, though im probably going to drop the lernaeans for some techmarines or mech allies for repairs.

The gameplan is to have Dynat infiltrate the meltas while the rhinos rush up under support from my armor.

CRUSADE PRIMARY DETACHMENT: 1280pts

High command: 185
Armillus Dynat - 185 pts -> Army Vanguard

Command:
Master of signals - 115 pts -> Armoured Support
Prime: Rewards of Treason
Centurion (power sword) - 90 pts -> 2x Headhunter Leviathal
Troops:
2x 10 tac marines - 200 pts
Prime: Logistical benefit
Transports:
2x Rhinos -120

Logistical benefit: multiMelta Squad with augury scanner - 360 pts
Rewards of Treachery: Mhara Ghal - 210 pts


2x HEADHUNTER LEVIATHAL: 870 pts
Recon:
2x neutron Saber - 90 pts
2x5 Nemesis Recon squad - 135 pts
4x5 seekers - 210 pts
2x logistical benefits
2x Master Sgt (recons)

Logistical benefits: 365
Augury Command and Control Squad - 80 pts
Elite: 1x5 Lernaean (power fist, chainfist, c-beamer) - 285 pts

ARMOURED SUPPORT: 485 pts
1xchoomKratos - 295
1xSicaran Venator with lascannons - 190

>>96117238
you act like anything can actually stop a spartan from easily dropping them onto your objective.

Imagine fearing Spartans lmao

>>96117251
the kratos retard already did the math and it does like 5 hull points to a spartan. sorry anuj but your tank isnt doing anything

>>96117245
>0 (Z E R O) Exodi
SOVLLESS
Also you can only get 1 master sgt per detachment

>>96117256
You move block it you dipshit, then blow it up all while they pile out and slowly crawl across the table.

>>96117213
Does the Orbal Assault Vehicle rule skirt the deep strike 1/turn limitation in any way?

>>96117213
>Dreadclaws are good though as theyre flyers.
So they're shittier drop pods because you have to move in from a table edge, dump guys, and leave?

>>96117238
Move 10, 6" disembark then 1+2d6 drop lowest charge distance averaging at a whole 5"

21" threat range assuming you're playing with zero terrain, can't threaten every objective at once with that on a real board though you can certainly keep one down.

>>96117270
you arent move blocking it you fucking retard it only needs to move turn 1 to be able to dump justaerin onto your shit and flatten your army of tacticals

>>96117267
It's two different headhunter detachments but you have a point about Exodus, it makes far more sense for a recon company themed force to have at least one.
If I drop the lerneans that'll probably let me take Exodus + 2-3 techmarines that will accompany my tacs. Thanks for the feedback!

>>96117274
yeah theyd flatten a midfield objective for 5 points on turn 2 and then move into the opponents backfield probably by turn 4 for another 5 vps. justaerin are very strong this edition

>>96117277
>Spartan moves 12
>Terminators have a 5 inch move
>No real set up

Man anon, your retarded if you think that's on my objective, enjoy killing 10 despoilers turn three and 4 while I kill the rest of your army because you put all your eggs in a basket.

>>96117274
Your opponent just doesn't take the midfield objective until they have killed the Spartan? And then steps off their back objective to ensure you cant get 5 points.

Like, your opponent knows what your doing, they dont need to play like a retard and give you the Vanguard points.

>>96117286
>reach the opponents backfield for another 5 VP.

Mathematically there's no reason why your opponent wouldn't just move off the backfield objective turn 3 if you threatened that, you'd get 1 VP turn 4.

>>96117286
Why are they standing on any objective that could be threatened by you? They will take their 2-4 line points, then run off it before you can charge them, leaving you fucked. That's the cool part of vanguard, if your vanguard is so insanely high, your opponent can intentionally abandon their objective.

>>96117271
No, just grants deep strike and must deep strike

>>96117303
>>96117319
yeah you are right a vanguard 4 unkillable unit that flattens everything is bad

>>96117299
>Your opponent just doesn't take the midfield objective until they have killed the Spartan?
so you are giving me the midfield objective for the entire game because you arent going to kill the spartan at all. kek. its a 4 turn game. spartan drops its payload on turn 1 or 2 and can literally hide in a building out of LOS all game after that for all i care. you arent killing it

>>96117327
When it costs 1000pts yeah, its bad. Its like you haven't played 1st edition, where everyone put a primarch with terminators in a spartan, then wondered why they kept losing their games as their "unkillable unit" proceeds to do nothing as the opponent keeps feeding it chaff and kills the rest of your army. This isnt some novel idea, its been done to death before and is a common noob trap.

>>96117273
No, they're better. move 15" disembark movent distance of unit an any number can fly on with a reserve roll. Intercept is checked at board edge so they can hide behind obscuring. I honestly don't undertand why drop pods dont circumvent the 1/turn when these exist. They are more points and you cant get behind enemy lines but who cares about the second part as you can charge out too. Just ont put anything in that cares about disordered.

>>96117336
>Its like you haven't played 1st edition, where everyone put a primarch with terminators in a spartan, then wondered why they kept losing their games as their "unkillable unit" proceeds to do nothing as the opponent keeps feeding it chaff and kills the rest of your army.
that isnt how 1.0 went at all. the spartan primach deathstars were literally the meta choice. it wasnt fucking whfb were you could actually feed chaff into a horde for any meaningful benefit

>>96117330
>so you are giving me the midfield objective for the entire game because you arent going to kill the spartan at all.
My Kratos and HSSs kills the Spartan in 1-2 turns, then I leave that one objective they are near to you to score 1-2 points on while I Vanguard your objectives and keep scoring mine because I have 1000 extra points that weren't spent on an infantry unit with an 11Inch threat radius.

Then when your terminators finally get close to my objective for a possible turn 4 charge, I step off the objective and you get fucking nothing after I have been farming 5-8 Victory points from it. What kinda retarded shit are you smoking?

>>96117353
your kratos does 5 hp. your heavy support squad does literally nothing because it isnt in LOS and then gets deleted turn 1 by my phosphex. hss are going to suck ass in 3.0 btw

>>96117342
I miss those days. I killed Angron and his retinue twice with Decapitation Strike. Drop pod in combi meltas, pop it, Nex and plasma TSS deleting contents. Felt bad for the guy, he was really chill.

>>96117342
>that isnt how 1.0 went at all. the spartan primach deathstars were literally the meta choice.
The "I didnt play 1st edition" starter pack people, that "meta" didn't even survive the second black book's release.

>>96117212
starting my heresy army this edition, no idea what's good or not
Fulgrim - 425pts
Tartaros Command Squad (10) - 420pts
Phoenix Terminators (5) - 250pts (Lances, Shriekers)
Centurion - 90pts (Power weapon)
Champion - 105pts
Tartaros Praetor - 160pts (Paragon weapon)
Tac Squad (10) x 3 - 330pts (Bayonets)
Assault Squad (10) - 160pts (2 power weapons)
Heavy Support Squad (10) - 350pts (Lascannons)
Contemptor - 175pts (Twin Lascannons, Autocannon)
Leviathan - 270pts (Twin volkite, Melta lance, Storm cannon)
Scimitar Jetbikes (3) - 150pts (3 multi-meltas, power sword)

that totals to 2885 pts, so I'll probably load up on some more wargear

>>96117359
>retard believes 6" move justaerin that can never catch anything get to charge things but 36"+ range shooting units can't see 1% of a landraider
Okay guys he's just trolling, no human could be so mentally retarded as he's pretending to be. Stop responding to him.

>>96117375
it was the meta for the entire life cycle of 1st.

>>96117372
Every edition. People get stuck in perfect scenarios to A or to counter with B, etc. Once batreps and game posters start up it will wash out.

>>96117340
You cannot keep flyers on the board.
So even though you can roll for flyers from tur one, you move 15 inches... from your board edge, then HAVE to deploy your guys, who are probably not even far up the board as the squads you just deployed normally.

>>96117382
lil guy you are literally trying to argue that the best vanguard unit in the game is bad, while also arguing that the best vehicle in the game is bad. all this while you admit to taking a presumably lascannon HSS (total dogshit unit in 3.0). youre just a fucking retard

>>96117386
It's never the same people though. I feel like everyone that actually posts games here are broadly reasonable people.
I'd love to be proven wrong though, maybe any of the retards doing the stupid "nuh-uh, actually I would counter that with this" could post a model/game for once.

>>96117385
It was POPULAR all of 1e, it was far from good.

It does not matter how powerful your deathstar is, if it doesn't have some ability to reach out and effect various parts of the board in a single game.

A spartan deathstart with primarch was very scary, but they could only physically reach so far in a game, and yes you could very much throw chaff at them, or screen them - you didn't charge into them, you just blocked them and force them to charge cheap units instead of getting closer to actual useful parts of your army/the board.

>>96117390
>best vanguard unit in the game is bad,
No one has brought up Vanguard vets or bikers once dipshit, we are talking about the shitty justerian you want to pretend is anything but a massive points sink.

>>96117377
nobody knows what’s good yet we have no results to go off of

>>96117389
Move 15+the movement value of the unit, so at least 22". Prime midfield objective territory. It can also scoop back up and redeploy and load contemptors. Its balanced by its range. Any faster and and it would almost invalidate rhinos were they not so cheap. Its simply a good choice, and a better drop pod

>>96117385
Bitch, imagine thinking that once Thousand Sons could D nova the entire unit or lock them up with Invisible terminators all game. It was THE classic "i dont want to think about how to play the game" army that would just lose to anyone that knew what they were doing.

>>96117402
>, and yes you could very much throw chaff at them, or screen them - you didn't charge into them, you just blocked them and force them to charge cheap units instead of getting closer to actual useful parts of your army/the board.
no lmao. the way people dealt with spartan deathstars (which were the meta), was by can opening them (usually by lightnings with kraken missiles) and then dropping ap2 pieplates on them. nobody just fed them chaff

>>96117411
I'm sure that's true for the top of the meta, but I bet there are some obviously suboptimal choices I'm overlooking.

>>96117385
Popular=/=good. I popped many with lightnings and drop pods of juicy shooting. It was a skillgate to face.

any other mechfags also think the liber is way too similar to 2e in that there are very obvious way-better-than-the-rest-by-a-country-mile units?
multi-melta thallax solve both dreadnoughts and vehicles since they're deep striking, mobile infantry that are cheap as hell and reasonably accurate
thanatars and lightning cannon + macrotek krios delete both normal infantry and elite infantry with breaching, large blasts and are also extremely durable
everything else are either bad melee units or kind of funny objective fodder or have worse firepower

>>96117406
>the kratos and HSS retard thinks that 3+ save vanguard vets are actually good
ahahaha. these are the retards who think justaerin are bad. priceless. get shot to death by bolters or any of the plethora of ap3 pie plates/phosphex

>>96117359
>your kratos does 5 hp
Ordnance (x) doubles the x characteristic, not +1 like Heavy (x)
A kratos with shock shells does 8 HP on a pen if it stayed still.

>>96117419
true
you seem to have a fondness for lascannons and quite franky I don’t think they’re that good this edition and are massively overcosted

>>96117418
>spartan deathstars (which were the meta)
The META, was the lightnings and the Medusas dip shit, and they stayed the meta because retards like you kept throwing games by using this dumb ass, easy to counter strategy.

Meanwhile you had Thousand Sons with their Psycher 3+ invuln rerolling terminators, Dark Angel stasis/acid spam, Iron Warrior phospex bombardments, Imperial Fist gunlines,and so on actually being the good lists, because they could spend like 500pts max to render the Spartan Deathstar playstyle useless, then kill the rest of your army. You didnt actually play the edition.

>>96117430
Nta but I think you may be retarded.
You have the reading comprehension of a toddler

>>96117418
ok thank you for your insights on all the games I personally played or watched, plus how everyone else in the world played. Good to know everyone only did one strat ever, and everyone had lightnings and medusas.

>>96117406
>>96117430
are you both fucked in the head or just 40k tourists?

No one said anything about vanguard vets because they don't exist in 30k.

NTA but he's clearly talking about units with the vanguard rule... i.e. justies which you autists have been arguing about all thread.

>>96117401
I can post you the tank I'm currently painting while arguing with anon if you want.

Eh, its possible I'm being Biased against Justaerin because there's no real difference between them and a regular ass cataphractii squad to the Auxilia. Both units will solo anything in my army if they get to it.

>>96117435
>n-nooo the spartan deathstars werent the meta eventhough they were the most popular list and thats literally the definition of meta and all the counter-play lists existed to counter that meta
ok retard

>>96116238 (OP)
>TQ
>hope
Sisters of Silence range in plastic
>prediction
Custodes
Sisters get off-hand mention
>expectation
Nothing but Marines

>>96117434
True, but I have always loved lascannons and the support squad in particular is meant to represent Sun-Killers.

>>96117447
I think >>96117406 is talking about jump pack vets, which he is right about, they are pretty good for just deep striking somewhere safe, then pouncing on back line objectives. Most of my playgroup is going to be using them.

>>96117039
It takes 1 reaction point, which you only get 3 of per round normally. So you're not going to see as many in general.
The other difference is that you can shut off reactions with statuses now, and that most of the cancerous units that abused return fire (lascannon HSS, etc) got nerfed in their own right. There's also no more instant death, which adds even more to it.

>>96117458
You mean get free wins because people brought piss poor lists? Yeah, imagine thinking your a good player because you kept consistently losing to the Lightning and 2 Medusa every list was running?

You clearly didn't play the game and are going off of what you read on reddit.

>>96117474
if you’re playing them for lore reasons then that’s based and you are free to ignore any of my complaints about how bad they are

itll be fun watching the hss spamming fags from 2.0 getting their asses reamed by phosphex in 3.0

>>96117416
I'm not saying they're garbage anon, but a normal unit on foot can deploy usually 12 up, run 11 inches for 23 inches. Jump units are obviously even better.

You can assault out of a dreadclaw of course, but its not assault, so its only really useful for bullying a tactical squad or whatever, but again, is that really more effective than just having an assault squad or something?

>>96117486
you clearly dont know what meta means you drooling fucking retard. meta literally means what is the most popular list archetype and that was spartan deathstar in 1.0. if you disagree you are wrong and retarded and nogames.

you are literally talking about counter-meta lists and thinking that makes them "the meta". dumb as shit.

>>96117477
status is at the end of the phase. How are you suppressing (or which one it is) the HSS before it returns fire on someone?

>>96117487
I think it's still nice to know, so I appreciate the perspective

>>96117494
> DUR Im going to say deathstars were good because they were meta
>Everyone jump on you about how easily they were countered and not really a good list
>B-but they were played alot

Your goal post moving is retarded, just like the 1000 points of 6 inch moving terminators your going to fail to score points with. At least paint that waste of resin nicely.

Holy shit why are so many people spurging about deathstar units as if no one has ever thought of them before?

Even in 1e, they were very predictable at counterable, but fuck off to the anon claiming it was some global meta all edition - there were cities I played in where people didn't use primarchs at all, or even named characters. People play what they enjoy, spartan deathstars is something some people enjoy and all power to them, but that is far from everyone.

>>96117490
Safe from shooting until they strike, and a vehicle that isn't slowed. Assault squads are fine, but risk getting shot in route. Same with rhinos, but rhinos are so cheap it's less of an issue.

>>96117511
It's a trolling 40ktard and people are biting the bait hard

>>96117505
i never claimed deathstars were good you illiterate retard. i said they were the meta, which they were. you got all offended and sperged out like a fucking moron at this simple undeniable fact while trying to claim that counter meta = meta.

basically you are a retarded nogames.

>>96117496
Presumably the game lasts longer than 1 turn

>>96117523
Meta means taken in competitive lists with the intention to win, not popular

>>96117377
phoenix terminators are terrible. 2 attacks each for 250 points

Your contemptor and leviathan are both pretty bad as built, cyclonic lance is pretty dogshit on a dreadnought, with 12" range and moving it deals 1 average wound and 3% chance of a predator kill. If walking within 8" for melta to kick in it goes to 50% chance to take a predator and 4 avg wounds if he doesnt smokescreen, 2.7 wounds and 27% to kill a predator that uses smoke and lets you get within 8". Though you'll honestly never get in melta range of a vehicle with a dreadnought, they'll simply drive backwards 10" to your 6" movement and predator gunkills the leviathan which only has 1 gun because the melta isnt ever in range. Better to take lascannons on both arms and no meltas. Contemptor with lascannon+autocannon is pretty pointless. Now it can't ambush a tank since the autocannon is weak against tanks (needs a 6 just go glance AV14 and a 6 to ever get the 2 dmg on AV13 instead of just inflicting a status) AP4 autocannons still bad against any space marines and breaching 6+ is too unreliable.

Neither of those dread builds offers anything over a tank. With only WS4 and double mediocre gun setups they can't do anything but instantly lose if they get into melee (which will happen often with bad movement and trying to go for a 12" lance weapon trudging down center board if you want to get near any vehicles)

That assault is no threat with just 2 power weapon.

Since your 10 lascannon squad is your one actual shooting unit in that 3000 points, enemy gonna be avoiding it and blasting everything else that cant defend itself, and then use better melee squads to mop up your assaults, mop up your phoenix termies, mop up the dreads, bully the tiny 10man tacticals so you can't contest any caps.

Fulgrim is B tier. An S-tier unit like Vulkan with Firedrake terminators (+1 attack magical thunderhammers instead of tartaros terminators joke claws) would mop up fulgrim's squad and it wouldnt be close.

>>96117523
They weren't meta, you retard stop quoting reddit about an edition you didnt play, you didnt even know what the Horus Heresy was until 2.0 you blithering idiot.

>>96117536
meta literally means popular you dumbass. 30k is not and has never been competitive. meta in a competitive context also means the most popular archetype so no you are just doubly wrong, idiot.

How much of this guy do you think I gotta change before he's acceptable as a word bearers librarian?

>>96117544
I have no idea why you're even bothering to double down on such a simple mistake, let alone get angry about it.

>>96117542
you literally admitted that spartan deathstars were meta when your entire argument against them was "yeah they were so popular that we all just spammed counter-meta lists haha"

basically you are dumb as shit and dont even know what meta means.

>>96117528
anon was talking about shutting down reactions with statuses, but its actually worse than 2e, where you could at least roll multiple attempts to pin them per turn, and it applied instantly. So you could try pin a unit then safely shoot it with something else right away.

>>96117518
you're relying on reserve rolls to go only half way up the field - pushing anything on the other end of the board is going to be far out of pod range, and again, its not an assault vehicle so dropping to i1 against actual melee units is extremely problematic.

Speaking of rhinos, they're 60(65?) points now, but I did see they're av12 in the front these days, which is interesting.

>>96117548
If you're not playing Siege/Scouring era then everything

>>96117548
I think people were using him as a traitor esoterist since he was released

>>96117544
>meta literally means popular you dumbass
Then it certainly wasn't meta, no one in my area took Spartans, they died so easily to knights and Medusa, and everyone was taking those to keep custodies players from doing anything.

>>96117557
I think for a variety of reasons, the days of lascannon HSS + return fire defining the game are over

>>96117559
>esoterist
Wasn't this guy a 2019 release? That was still 1.0 no? I thought 2.0 was what introduced estoerists

>>96117561
you are a nogames though

>>96117564
>Wasn't this guy a 2019 release?
Man, I'm old.

>>96117552
You don't know what a meta is you idiot, spartan deathstars ARENT popular, they died out a few years into the edition entirely because people were spamming medusa and shit. You are repeating a meme from the first few years of the edition to justify your bad deathstar idea.

>>96117548
still mad that they made the CSM half of shadowspear black legion instead of word bearers
I know it’s just the paint scheme on the box but fucking look at this guy

>>96117563
>2015
>lascannon HSS are 350 points and unplayable
>2025
>lascannon HSS are 350 points and unplayable
The more things change the more they stay the same

>>96117565
Says the guy who is talking about an edition he didn't even play

>>96117563
yeah they're definitely not the end all unit of terror anymore, I was just pointing out that return fire is still very much out and about, and undiminished in how good it is, even if its top user is certainly weaker.

>>96117571
they were prevalent throughout the edition but youd know that if you werent some nogames zoomer toddler.

>>96117572
you can paint them however you'd like

How angry are the iron hand books

>>96117212
I play Iron Warriors, this is the list I'm looking at. For duplicates I won't copy paste their equipment each time.

Crusade Primary Detachment
High Command
Praetor 120 points -> 132 points
+10 for Power Weapon
+2 for Volkite Charger

Command
Centurion 80 Points -> 100 points - Grants two Detachments - In Prime Slot - Logistical Benefit -> Heavy Assault Slot
+10 for Power Weapon
+10 for Combi-Melta
Siege Breaker 115 Points - Grants Storm Battery Detachment

Troops
Tactical Squad 100 Points -> 120 Points - In Prime Slot - Expendable 1
+10 for Vexilla
+10 for Nuncio Vox
Tactical Squad 100 Points -> 120 Points
Tactical Squad 100 Points -> 120 Points
Tactical Squad 100 Points -> 120 Points

Transport
Rhino 60 Points -> 70 Points
+10 for 2x Pintle-Mounted Combi-Bolters
Rhino 60 Points -> 70 Points
Rhino 60 Points -> 70 Points
Rhino 60 Points -> 70 Points

Heavy Assault
Tyrant Siege Terminator Squad - 575 Points -> 585 Points
+10 for Omni-Scope
1,692 points in Primary detachment

Tactical Support Detachment (From Praetor)
Heavy Support Squad - 100 Points -> 300 Points
+200 for Autocannons
Tactical Support Squad - 80 Points -> 160 Points
+80 for Volkite Calivers
460 Points in Tactical Support Detachment

Armor Support (From Centurion)
Scorpius Missile Tank - 120 Points
Scorpius Missile Tank - 120 Points
240 Points in Armor Support Detachment

Storm Battery Detachment (From Siege Breaker)
Rapier Batttery - 40 Points -> 150 Points
+40 for 1 additional Rapier Crew
+40 for Quad Launchers
+30 Points for Phosphex
Rapier Batttery - 40 Points -> 150 Points
Vindicator Siege Tank - 140 Points -> 150 Points
+5 for Havoc Launcher
+5 for Dozer Blade
Vindicator Siege Tank - 140 Points -> 150 Points
600 Points in Storm Battery Detachment

>>96117579
Can vehicles even react in 3.0? I'm not sure what units are even worth planning a return fire reaction around anymore in marines.

>>96117570
I remember seeing the 5th edition tyranid releases in high school and that getting me to try the game. That was over 15 years ago ;_;

>>96117428
there is some stuff you can do to juice up stuff like the Lacrymaerta S6 Ursarax detachment and Karacnos Mortars is Poisoned Pinning Barrage Large Blasts and a giant fuck you to anything holding an objective with a pulse in range.

My main concern is everything is either support troops, heavy assault or elites and all competing for the same slots and scoring is all based on single characters, so a sniper will shut down any robots scoring and take everyone else down to one point vs the 4 a tactical squad is getting a turn. Only having 2 HQ choices feels sort of bad until you realize you need 6 detachments to have a 3k army on the field.

I kind of wanted to start them after seeing the leaks but thinking about how to make a list with them really discourages me, because it feels like everything will have to be large sized units to field an army.

>>96117548
Definitely more Diabolist(Press F)/Esoterist

>>96117600
I started with codex daemonhunters. Still have it on my shelf within eye sight too.

>>96117580
>they were prevalent throughout the edition
No they weren't, no one who played the edition experienced that, stop lying

>>96117548
I wouldn't change anything, he fits Mid-Heresy/Post-Calth

>>96117428
Desu I have no idea why people suddenly started raving about melee mechanicum getting better, I took a look and it seemed to me like literally all of the melee mechanicum units got nerfed into the ground. The only ap2 melee weapons in the book are on a lord of war and the ported marine weapons lol

>>96117212
Army: Dark Angels
2450 points

-Primary Detachment (635)
Praetor with terranic greatsword and bolter = 135
[PRIME] Centurion with terranic greatsword and bolter = 95
- Prime Advantage: Paragon of battle
Centurion with terranic greatsword and bolter =95
Centurion with terranic greatsword and bolter = 95
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Stormwing Muster Detachment (215)
[PRIME] Tactical squad, master sgt with terranic greatsword and bolter, 19 legionaries = 215
- Prime Advantage: Master Sgt

-Officer Cadre Detachment (190)
[PRIME] Centurion with terranic greatsword and bolter = 95
- Prime Advantage: Paragon of battle
Centurion with terranic greatsword and bolter = 95

I know a lot of people *talked* about primarchs in spartans like they were the end-all-be-all online during 1.0, but very rarely did I ever see them in game.

The primarchs that weren't stuck walking were the ones who I would actually see on the table a lot more. Alpharius popping out of a disguise, Sanguinus/Magnus/Khan on bike flying around, etc.

>>96117621
How is this getting so many prime bonuses?

>>96117611
everybody who played the edition knows that spartan deathstars were the meta. the entire game was shaped around them and the counter meta kraken lightning bullshit literally developed to counter the meta.

also drop pod alpha strike faggots were always the worst scum in 1.0.

>>96117618
You don't really need to kill terminators in melee, it's line (x) dudes that you want to kill on top of objectives.

>>96117624
I never saw any primarchs, because I didn't own Vulkan and the people I play with aren't the kind of asshats who bring a primarch unprompted

>>96117626
Stormwing muster auxiliary detachment gives a prime slot for troops

Fun fact: the Deathwing detachment is one of the only ways to get a prime retinue slot in the game.

>>96117626
Innate Dark Angel superiority.

>>96117626
Each storming detachment comes with prime slots, and it's an aux detachment

>>96117621
>>96117626
>>96117637
You know what's really silly? You could give all those tacs Interdiction Cadres, or if you're a Traitor, True Believers

>>96117637
Isn't there one on the generic retinue apex detachment? I get what you mean though, for some legions it's hard to get retinue and elite slots (my poor word bearers) and for some it's easy as shit.

But seriously why is word bearers detachment just the sons of horus one but worse, did someone fuck the designers mum or something like mechanicum last edition?

>>96117650
>Step on a twig near a tree
>40 tactical marines spawn in out of nowhere to gun you down

>>96116238 (OP)
>What are you predicting for the preview?
Some new models that will make the majority of the community forget that GW lied to them to their face and are going to eventually push legacies into the bin.

Groonhammer set my comment to pending after editing their article to remove the error. Just wow. Could have just replied and said, "oops that's been fixed!"

>>96116810
>Why do anons prefer 1.0 over 2.0
IMO its because they either never played it, or continuously fought the same players over and over none of which were Tsons, knights, or Aux players.

1.0 was a fucking shit show of issues, more so then 2.0. 2.0 had some problems to be damn sure but not like 1.0.
1.0 was often called a parking lot because there was asinine amounts of easy access AP3 large blast so MEQs were pretty fucking much pointless, TEQ got glassed pretty damn easy as well, considering how much template AP2 there was as well. The Dracon transport is a great example of how stupid it would get.
Thats not even counting the hilarity of psykers in 1.0 which were busted as fuck, lest we also forget magnus who could just straight up beam half your army away in a single go.

I enjoyed aspects of 1.0 quite a bit, but holy fuck was it a nightmare at times.

>>96117677
Fucking kek, they are really that insecure? I keep seeing their behavior and I just might be done with them. I kept our do the drama because the articles had new stuff early but after 3.0 I don't think I can take them seriously.

>>96117601
the ursurax having vanguard 3 is good but they lose out very quickly to any similar vanguard unit
but yes the troop tech priests should not be your only way to give comptroller, you need to be using the big heavy magi with 5+ wounds

>>96117618
agreed, the weapons are just way worse for no reason but they still kill power armor quickly

>>96117696
>following goonhammer
Wasnt goonhammer the retarded that basically were a major reason for the popularity of competative 40k which in turn resulted in 9th?

>>96117667
watching all the slop eating retards move to a fucking 4 turn VP spamming game is going to be hilarious. its basically 40k lite.

>>96117710
Why is the 4 turn thing so controversial?

>>96117710
This was my thought when i saw how the line system works. Same thing with like vanguard, there are vanguard out there with like Vanguard(3 or 4) Like fucking knights for example are vanguard 4 iirc.

Then there is the one with Aux who get line (x)

Alpha legion are going to be busted, becuase turn one they will just walk onto an objective and camp it.
Line units are going to be even more important now then ever before.

its a fucking shame too because some of the aspects of 3.0 i really like
>Blast rules
Fucking love blast in 3.0, fixes the issue i always had with the small template
>Vehicles
An interesting way to give them more survivability i did not expect a rework of the damage table, and have heard some wild ideas but im actually intersted in trying this method out, to bad its slapped to a shitty system.

IIRC arnt like all the game lengths just capped at 4 turns too?

>>96117724
The same reason spartan primarch terminator balls live rent free in their head: Their only interaction with the rules are theoretical arm chair arguments online. Exactly like this.

>>96117724
because 4 turn is fuck all enough game length to do anything. most of the time by turn 4 i still have like half my army on the table, i dont like a game being called when i still got shit that can do things.

>>96117724
4 turns is not long enough to play a game unless it's been dumbed down to complete retard food.

>>96117724
I remember many of my games going into turn 6 and wishing for a turn 7

>>96117724
because its fucking dogshit? yeah i want to play a quicker 4 turn game where nothing dies because the game ends early and the shit that does die doesnt matter because the only thing of importance is VP objective camping trash/ vanguard

>>96117710
40k is 5 turns, so now horus heresy is officially the more casual zoomer baby game than 40k is.

>>96117738
>>96117745
Aren't you basing this off of 2.0, though?
The batreps I've watched so far of 3.0 have been very killy.

>>96117724
Becuase if you are on a decently set up table:
>Turn 1 is mostly moving and shooting
>Turn 2 your fast attacks and maybe some of your melee units will have made it into the frey
>Turn 3 shit is in full swing, strikes are made here and stratagies are revealed.
>Turn 4 is the meat and potatos of combat,
>Turn 5 and 6 are the gambits and hail marys that can swing a game.

>>96117751
With full vehicle movement + full unit movement + set up ranges, you could very well be in melee at the bottom of turn 1, let alone getting there turn 2.

>>96117761
Your talking about 3.0 i assume.

>>96117761
on a board with no terrain against an opponent who deploys like a retard, maybe

Hot Intel on the new cataphractii box
>5 models
>csm terminator like wargear: 3 fists, 2 chainfists, 1 power axe, 2 volkite, 3 combi bolter with 1 each combi weapon, 1 heavy flamer/autocannon, 2 set of lightning claws.

Heard it here first. See you at the preview.

>>96117778
Can you tell me if Salamanders in 40k are getting anything or do you only know this?

>>96117724
HH2.0 is already 4 turns so who even knows. And if people are ignoring the turn limit in 2.0 there's no reason to be mad about it in 3.0

>>96117751
NTA, but I've always found that every turn in the game after like 2 is the swingiest, heresy is just naturally a swingy game, and it seems like it's going to get even swingier with scoring changes, weapon nerfs, and removal of rerolls

>>96117778
>>csm terminator like wargear
You're fucking around but I'll actually never forgive GW for not fixing chaos terminators.

Was it really that hard to put five power fists in the box?

>>96117797
I think its gonna be even less swingy desu, with how they are changing line and vanguard, i very much think you are gonna see a lot of advantage on turn one who are able to move onto objectives first, (You cant deploy on them anymore) and who have the ability to set their vanguard up to take an objective from the enemy.

>>96117724
It filters out bad players who can't figure out the match by then

>>96117807
I think people like this anon>>96117594
have the right idea - maybe not FOUR tac squads, but transports look essential.

>>96117815
Transports and bodies are going to be the name of the game, and personally i dont enjoy that, i did not like it in 2.0 i sure as shit dont like it in 3.0

Again i personally hated the line rule i thought i was a bad rule.
I fucking laughed how my units despite being elite with in the legion, some how cant hold a fucking objective and i need the greenhorn over here to hold it.

>>96117748
>Aren't you basing this off of 2.0, though?
no
>The batreps I've watched so far of 3.0 have been very killy.
the batreps ive seen still have half of their armies alive by the end of turn 4

im going to take at least 6x quad mortars with phosphex and rape everybodys objective camping/MEQ shit

>>96117890
Fuck yes, gonna do soooo much damage with those small template baybe

>>96117906
its about the panic (3) turning the opponents army into useless trash all game

>>96117687
All the issues with 1.0 were balance issues, not rules ones.
Every edition has balance issues, but 2e and 3e have issues with their actual rules.

Its easy to houserule 1.0 or just not be a raging asshole and spam clearly broken combos like 9 medusa, the same way you can not be an asshole in 2e and spam 15 contemptors in a Ancients list.
But problematic rules issues like fucky terrain, or reactions having wild scaling require houseruling to fix, where as 1e is by and large completely fine, in terms of core rules.

>>96117040
Yeah not enough LOS blocking for 2.0. Id say almost right foot print, but need more solid structure/tall stuff
Gotta grab more stuff from the back and upper shelf at GT, the nice shit.

>>96117790
Fuck off.
It has certain missions as 4 turns, not as a universal thing.

>>96117929
all of the missions are 4 turns

>hey can we play to turn 6 instead of 4?
>sure!
it's a rulebook, not a bible

>>96117621
I feel like you should drop two or three of those tacticals for 20 man despoilers with heavy chainswords and at least 1 tac supp with melta guns.

>>96117933
No, they are not, not every mission is 4 turn capped except a few from cathonia

>>96117945
enjoy your 6 turn game of 80 VPs to 90 VPs. might as well just play the ITC slop that 40k has turned into

>>96117945
You and I both know people treat it like the latter.
Gone are the days when rule books were guidelines

>>96117933
thanks for confirming you're nogames faggot.

>>96117945
if you ask me that I’m assuming it’s because the extra turn gives you some kind of advantage and will always say no

>>96117957
i meant in 3.0

>>96117945
The way vp's are structured has fundamentally changed the flow of the game, running it for 6 turns would actually change the balance quite a lot.

Also reminder that 40k board sizes reduced their 'minimum recommended size' and literally the entire world community lost their minds and just accepted that as mandatory canon and anyone who played a different size was a cheating faggot who was having fun wrong.

>>96117969
Oh my apologies anon, may your coats be smooth, your paints never chalky, and your rolls always favorable.

>>96117960
the years, where have they gone...

only macca's heresy can save 30k now. grim

>>96117986
Buy an ad

>>96117969
Other anon specifically said 2e you stinker.

>>96117989
you are either team macca or team pardo. choose your next words carefully

>>96118006
Nta I am team me
I play 2.0
But I get is brutal on the
Use 3.0 blast rules
And use 3.0 vehicle rules adapted for 2.0
House rules that a unit can only react once
Heavy weapons snap fire in a reaction.

My local Titanicus group has browsed a lot of the homebrew and tourney rules that people have come up with so I decided to try making some Legio Xestobiax rules but after making a first draft of them suddenly I feel like a ponce.

>>96118013
>I play 2.0
gross

>>96118006
actually I can hate both of them, fuck your “teams” bullshit

>>96117627
You never played the edition, I did, shut up dipshit

>>96118065
stop lying

Preach mr Circle, PREACH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7hlum9CzIk

>>96118097
Stop quoting reddit

>>96118126
buy an ad

>>96118126
as usual macca is the only voice of reason within the 30k community

Am I the only one who thinks we're not going to see anything other than the breacher kit and maybe the mkii upgrade kit? Lord knows that some art shoeing up in a rulebook is far from an indicator of something releasing imminently, and they're going to want to wait on the teaser stuff for a while me thinks

Dynat looks like he's going to be a really funny duelist when you combine him with the AL gambit. He can set the enemy combat initiative to 1 with the AL gambit and basically be guaranteed to go first even when using his hammer, which will really mess up anything without eternal warrior.
If he can take out Sigismund my life will be complete

>>96116238 (OP)
Did anyone notice the new cata term squad size is 5-12?

6 man box inbound I reckon.

>>96118182
3 man box

Is there any point in taking Casoran Axes/Tabasco on Justaerin and Reavers? You may as well just get a thunder hammer or powerful fist for slightly more or the same cost compared to tabars

Does 3-3.5k still seem to be the normal game size?

>>96117729
>Alpha legion are going to be busted, becuase turn one they will just walk onto an objective and camp it.
How are they going to do that? Their Inductii aren't yet released :O
I hear hiding is no longer their sole focus now that Lerneans were improved...up to standard. I guess not everyone can be Justaerin. At least they have Line (1), which makes them unique.
If you excuse me, I'm going to MOURN power daggers replacing a weapon instead of adding one. Then I'm going to hope the PDF lets Saboteurs equip something other than a shotgun and knife

New transport rules make me want to put a salamanders praetor in a drop pod to solo drop at an opponent.

>>96118283
Rulebook says the default assumption is 3k points

>>96116342
Wh-where's the diabolist?

Sagyar mazan or true believers as the prime benefit for my big 20 man unit of traitor WS despoilers? Can’t tell what’s more useful- thinking true believers at this point

>>96118349
Explain (I have no idea what the new transport rules are)

>>96118409
Anyone can purchase any transport really. Not locked behind dedicated transports

>>96118182
20% price hike taking it from 10man to 6man with GW's current pricing. Probably in 3man sprues inside the box so a combat patrol could later includle just 3 terminators for if GW later decides to price hike them again to cost as much as eightbound.

>>96118182
thell be revealed tomorrow along with the female custodes i reckon

>>96118169
the risk in the plan is anytime opponent is the one charging, they pick gambit first and could ban alpha legion gambit.
If Dynat selects hammer then, he's initiative 3 and going to get clobbered. If he selects Prince as his weapon, he can use the extra focus gambit and attempt to go first, but then if he must land 3 of his 5 sword attacks if he wants to get the 1 bonus hammer attack and he'll probably need 5+ to hit and usually only score 1-2 hits then get raped by Sigismund. And if he scores 3 sword hits, the hammer is just a new strike group (so it must roll 5+ to hit sigismund, then 2+ to wound, then deal with his 4++, probably averages like 0.3 extra wounds)

Dynat has the Leman Russ problem where he'd be great at bullying really weak opponents and is terrible at punching up. His whole gimmick of needing to land 3 sword hits requires a WS4-5 opponent to not be a joke.

>>96117557
Hey yeah, Rhinos doubled in cost. It's good they are durable now, because they went from 1/3 to 3/5 the cost of the unit inside. Luckily units can disordered charge from inside them, so they are no longer mere disposable mobile bunkers anymore
>its not an assault vehicle so dropping to i1 against actual melee units
No. Disordered charges have no Set up, no Volley from the charger (target can volley), and rules that activate in charges don't (like EC, BA, WE, etc). But they fight at normal initiative.

What is Orbital Assault Vehicle?

>>96118500
oh damn, so blood angels loses +1 strength if they take transports and world eaters lose +1 attack. Melee is so fucked in HH3.0

>>96118509
They have deep strike, but must be deployed via deep strike.

>>96117537
Multiple glances can cause single HP loss by rolling the same status. But yeah I bet it sucks for melta relying on half a dozen D only to roll "Pinned lol"

>>96118550
Doesn't armorbane mean glances count as pens?

>>96118550
I wrote a simulator, vehicles almost never get glanced to death. It's too unlikely to not miss, not fail to pen, manage a 1/6 chance to glance, then 1/3rd chance to do same glance for 1 single wound, then repeat that exact same thing 5 more times on a predator.

Wanna know how trash S8 weapons are? 30x S8 Gravis-autocannon shots on a single predator only has 78% chance to slay it. A single dreadnought gun is putting out only 3 while moving (4 standing still) So 10x dreadnought autocannons would only take it 78%.
Missile Launchers are utterly worthless in HH3, as they only have 1x S8 shot each with AP3.

6x dreadnought big autocannon shots is only 1.4 average wounds to a 5 wound predator, 2% chance of killing it.

And that's against AV13. The odds of S8 killing AV14 are monumentally worse. 60 autocannon shots (10 dual rifleman dreads) only has 16% to kill one landraider. 2.65 avg wounds dealt.

>>96118595
meltas don't have armourbane until they're within Melta distance. So the Cyclonic Melta Lance has 12" range where it's pretty much harmless to heavy tanks and 8" range where it gains Armourbane and doubles its damage if it manages to pen.

>>96118516
If they charge from non-assault transports, anon. A bunch of terminators or despoilers charging from a Land Raider do get their bonus.
They don't if they charge from a Rhino, but at least they get to charge at all unlike earlier edition, where they had to wait 10 min before getting in the blood pool.
>Rhino moves 12", unit moves 7", charges average 4.46"
23.46" is okay
2.0 had LRs move 6", the unit moved 6" (termies) then charged average 7" for an average 20" threat radius.
Now Catas from LRs charge 10" + 6" + 1" + 4.46" = 21.46"

>>96118531
Damn, I hoped it allowed multiple deepstrikes in the same turn. Can I charge out of them?

>>96116458
gayest post ive seen in a while in one of these threads

>>96118420
>combat patrol

My local group are refusing to agree on the fact vehicles cannot move through terrain.
They claim as its in a 'moving through' section vehicles can infact enter terrain features.

"So the “moving through “ section is a thing you do to a units , the last sentence is basically telling you, you can’t “move through” terrain eg doing hits to that terrain feature .
So vehicles can move into and out of terrain slowed if they don’t have a dozer blade and making tests if need to ."

Im in the camp "no you cannot enter as per current RaW"

Thoughts?

>>96118626
saturnine box is totally dead, nobody is buying it, wouldn't be at all surprised if GW tries to sell a half-sized box "Zone Mortalis Patrols" sets identical to Combat Patrol / Spearhead.

Don't blame me, it's gonna be GW doing it.

>>96118638
Do you often imagine scenarios to get mad at?

Looking to run a narrative focused campaign for 2.0, besides lifting stuff from the black books, what are some good resouces to pull ideas and rules from?
If anyones run/played in one i'd be very interested in any custom rules that worked well.

Any leaks yet? It's in like 10 hours

>>96118599
Desu how do people even come up with statistics and probabilities like this? Potentialy ousting myself as a lobotomite by saying so but I can never wrap my head around it beyond just rolling dice myself a whole bunch and going "huh this doesn't happen often"

Also yeah I've just sort of given up on the notion of killing vehicles this edition. Taking lascannons to go for glances to potentially disable at least but otherwise not gonna think about even killing vehicles unless it's some kind of dedicated melta unit. At risk of sounding like a doomer I really am confused how this edition is supposed to work.

>>96118634
RAW yes you're right, they can't go through terrain at all.
However RAI/Rules as played by nonfags, it's clearly possible to move through terrain. The sections talking about it would be pointless otherwise.

It was likely meant to mean you cant phase through solid walls and such, so don't be a dong anon.

Reposting because I would like that feedback.

I updated a 4th ed node campaign for introducing more narrative play for my new players in my club

Can I get someone to have a look over it?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14OwO91TZ-jLVgFE2F5IxSjNXxkairObx/view?usp=drivesdk

>>96117040
That's like 2 boxes of Kill Team terrain. That's enough terrain for a 1k game of 40k, since Kill Team is played on boards half the size of the smaller 40k boards.

30k is played on boards that are like three times the size of those 40k games, so you'll probably want about three times the amount of terrain.

>>96118611
No. The deep strike rule specifies that a unit embarked on a deep striking transport may disembark as normal and may not charge. Deep striking is largely for shooting this edition.

>>96118516
>Melee is so fucked in HH3.0
nta but melee got quite a few indirect buffs in HH3
- Apothecaries FnP and Heart of the Legion are gone; Medic reaction only works in the shooting phase. Also, Shrowded is still here and can deny wounds from ranged weapons.
- With Inexorable, Stubborn, and Fearless gone, combat resolution can really impact the outcome of melee combat. (i.e., melee units can easily force other units to run).
- You can now charge after disembarking from a non-assault vehicle.
- You can charge from reserves from Flyers turn 1 (Dreadclaw and Kharibdys are flyers, and Stormeagle is an assault vehicle flyer).
-Intercept reaction only allows Snap Shots.
- Many melee units now have Vanguard rule that allows them to get a lot of VPs when killing units on objectives.

Current downsides are you can't charge from deep strike, which means you need to pick other deployment methods for your melee units (which you now have), and getting a status reduces your I to 1, which means you should take great care of your CL and LD checks.

>>96117677
One of the goonhammer writers is a mod on the 30k discord and admin in the SN WhatsApp group and is the most argumentative cunt I've ever seen. Prove him wrong? Bannu

During the leaks they started posting that they hadn't seen anything early and didn't receive product from gw in advance everything they review they self fund despite their reviews being up on preorder day lol

>>96118651
>>96118599
First of all, I have that same concern. However, you divided the formula by 1/3 to simulate having to land the same specific Status effect in order to cause HP damage...but in doing so you assume you always hit the same status effect.
Anon, you need three autocannon marines i'm assuming static lol to inflict one status effect.
Meaning that, after the first three marines, you have 1/3 chance of doing damage, and 2/3 of inflicting another status effect.

So the first 3 guys do a status effect (0 dmg)
The next 5 guys do 0.5 dmg and another Status (that's 2 out of 3)
So far, after a single squad, the Predator is down maybe one HP, but has 2 out of the 3 possible Statuses. Which happen immediately, unlike for infantry where you have to wait until the end of the phase.


You'll need another squad (9 guys) to bring it down to half health and 3 out of 3 statuses. Afterwards, every successful glance will do damage.

This IS a lot. But it's kinda like trying to kill a Rhino in 2.0 with a Heavy bolter. You're asking an anti infantry weapon to kill a vehicle. That's not what it should be doing.

10 missile launchers do half damage + 1 status, then the other guys finish it, no? I think the goal was "fuck it - vehicles are NOT dying in a single shooting", and made Crew Shaken not vanish after a turn to compensate.

Army idea I'll probably never use since I can't afford a third army:
>traitor salamanders
>mainly old terran destroyer dudes that got pissy at Vulkan for banning the use of their weapons and demoting them into line soldiers, they think he's a pussy
>they dragged some impatient younger guys into it, with Erebus od Horus promising them their craft will be respected and they'll earn martial glory
Opinions?

>>96118698
Petty and deluded enough to be traitors, horus/10

>>96117724
> All of my own things are dead by turn 4 in half my games of 2.0
> All of my opponents things are dead by turn 4 the other half
Not sure

>>96118647
HH1 and 3 are great for terrain
HH4 and 6 are great for missions
I don't quite remember HH2 and 5, but they were good too
By Inferno I was tired, not gonna lie.
Do remember the black books generated warlord traits from the four 7E WT tables: Command traits, Personal traits, Strategic traits, and Tactical (this was mainly Objective rerolls).
Look up Fulgrim's and Autilon Skor's warlord traits. They used to be masterful commanders, and so chose their warlord trait at a time everyone else had to roll to see what they got.

>>96118690
Melee is significantly less lethal. No charge bonuses, no sweeping.
Charging certain units gives them full BS overwatch via volley fire stuff.

Charging out of rhinos moving full speed is the biggest change though, which should lead to some funny

>>96118651
you can do very complex mathematic probability trees, or be lazy like me and instantly program out a simulator to have the computer just roll dice for me and then take the averages.

For example, here's a function call
simulateRound(weaponShots=60, weaponStr=8, armorValue=14, weaponDmg=2, armourbane=0, coverSave=0);
it uses the basic built in random generator to roll dice for me
hitRoll = (rand.nextInt(6) + 1) rolls a random 1-6
then use basic logic tests (if hitRoll >= toHit) then it moves on to trying an armor test
(if ((diceResult > armor) || ((diceResult == armor) && (bane == 1)))
checks if it's a penetration (was greater than armor or equal and armourbane kicked in)
if that didnt work, then we check for glancing hits, and assign random status1, status2, or status3, if they already have it, deal 1 dmg.

once you've made an easy simulation of shooting at an infantry or shooting a tank or meleeing something, getting stats on it is just basic sum up how many total damage done, divide by total number of salvos fired, that's average shots per salvo. Or you could divide by shots to get average per shot or swing.

Tell it to repeat the sim round 10,000-50,000 times and you easily approach the true perfect average odds without needing to know a shred of complex math.

You can dabble with free mathhammer sites like AnyDice or UnitCrunch instead, but the interface is easily 5x slower and shittier to make changes and test new units and I could represent any tweaked special rules much easier just doing it myself.

>>96118733
>7E WT tables
i can't believe i forgot that, that'd be super useful giving generic characters a bit more flavour.

>>96118690
>you can't charge from deep strike, which means you need to pick other deployment methods for your melee units (which you now have)
Which I now HAVE to use, you mean; Alpha Strike is effectively dead. You have to jump through hoops to have two units deepstrike the same turn, let alone charge.
Also, not only deepstrike was nerfed. Outflank was extremely telegraphed but you could still charge out of it, and jump units could jump over any enemies squatting on the marker and vehicles could ram them off, and they could charge.
Now units are simply forbidden from Outflanking within 7" of the enemy, and can't charge unless they enter from your deployment zone's edge. So it's less telegraphed, but somehow even more restricted.

The Duel minigame does not make up for the dismantling of Alpha Strikes. Same as alternate detachments and Primes not making up for the death of Warlord Traits and actual Rites of War.

>>96118698
Anyone who read this warlord trait thought of combining it with Destroyers wielding double volkite serpentas or double dragonbreath hand flamers

>>96118764
I can believe it. I'm going to siphon some kill-juice from a virus bomb and bonk you with it. That's a rule in a blackbook (hh6?) relic mission lmao

>>96118782
Not unless you can give bitter duty to your warlord. I was thinking of an armistos with a heavy support team tho.

>>96118743
>No charge bonuses
I think since this is only important for certain legions or Impact(x) units, they would have to adapt by using assault vehicles. Alternatively, everyone can try to apply a status to a unit before charging it to bring its I to 1. Charging from Rhino seems fine against 3+ with certain AP3 +1i weapons as well.
>no sweeping.
Yep, forgot about that. I imagine that would be brutal in a 3.0 environment.
> certain units gives them full BS overwatch via volley
I think there are like 5 units in LA books that have Firestorm, with Moritat and Outrides being the only default units. (The other three are BA Tears, IW Iron Circle, and TS Castellax.)
>Charging out of rhinos moving full speed is the biggest change though, which should lead to some funny
Indeed.

>>96118769
I can't believe you don't want to buy more flyers and land riders, anon. Why are you like this? (also rip outflank)

Well, what the fuck does it do now then?

>>96118638
>saturnine box is totally dead, nobody is buying it, wouldn't be at all surprised if GW tries to sell a half-sized box "Zone Mortalis Patrols"

Probably going to recall most box and split them in smaller, cheaper boxes

>>96118834
>>96118769
>Alpha Strike is effectively dead
Bro, flyers are dead too, though I see people celebrating lol.
Anons complain the game ends in turn 4, but imagine you brought in a flyer turn 2 for an extraction mission. It now has a 50% chance of not arriving, so it might not return your unit until turn 4.
If it does arrive in turn 3, then it'll have a 66% chance of just not showing up on turn 4

Could I get a quick heads up on the state of power fists on 3.0? I didn't have the time to read all the stats yet, going to do so after my shift.

>>96118839
I really wish it was he who could take a heavy weapon, as to tag along HSS.
He lets guns ignore Shrouded, and also allows a Barrage unit to draw LoS from him. Only once per turn, naturally. Restraint, anon :)
He also unlocks a detachment with 2 Rapier units and 2 Arquitor units, and unlocks phosphex ammo for stuff

>>96118696
A predator isnt gonna be visible to 17 stationary autocannons ever, you always gotta use moving as the default for heavy weapons.
Even if stationary, the results are pitiful. 17 stationary autocannons vs predator, average wounds inflicted was 2.07 and odds of 51 S7 shots killing the predator was 8.44%
If 40 stationary HSS autocannons all see a predator out in the open and shoot its front, they only have 8 out of 10 odds of destroying it...
90 autocannon shots is only 51% chance of destroying a basic cheap rhino. That's 45 whole autocannons walking or 30 stationary autocannons that never moved and a predator let all 30 see him for some reason.

And those are the extra-forgiving numbers. In reality, if a large 10man heavy weapon team wants to attack a predator, it's likely they'll just pop smoke (5+ FNP discarding 1/3rd of your shots entirely) which gimps the shooting even harder.

Humans are not good at statistics without tools. It FEELS like spamming glances should be a thing, but the math doesn't work out. To get 1 glance requires an average 9 shots with BS4 (6 of 9 hit, 1 of those 6 glances) with eligible weapon and the 3 different statuses makes it just take too long and then once all 3 status are on the tank, you're still firing 9 autocannon bullets to add each 1 single wound, it's not like suddenly damage starts gushing out.

An autocannon HSS is a ridiculous 30 points (lascannon is only 35), so 45 walking autocannons to have a 50% chance to kill a predator costs 1350 points. For that cost, you could buy 39 Las heavies. 14 of those 39 lascannons would have 52% on the pred while the other 25 lascannons could go shoot terminators. Moral of the story, don't try to buy bullshit "medium weapons" if you want to not be HARMLESS to tanks.
The only way S7 autocannons are multi-role is if the tank shows its tail to your autocannons. If you try to use the wrong tool, your HSS squad won't kill a single tank by turn 4 and the game ending.

>>96118878
*killing basic predator not rhino, was reading other screen

Yo muthafuggas we wuz warhammers n shieet innit

>>96118599
>I wrote a simulator,

>I made a fake stats machine
>to tell me how probability doesn't work
>because I don't understand stats or probability

Can anyone post the overseer page or explain how his bring along mortals ability works now?

>>96118839
they really spread the rules out. Siege Breaker has a buff that lets your Rapier Battery take Phosphex ammo for +15 points extra.

24" S5 AP3, 3" blast barrage 1d6 scatter, poisoned 3+, Panic(3), Breaching5+.

Without a siege breaker, the quad launcher has harmless frag and harmless krak. With siege breaker it's warcrimes galore.

with the books so fucking emaciated why didnt they put all this legacies shit in them to pad it, I dont get it
does someone in their team have a pdf amendment kink?

>>96118868
Hmm. I don't have any Arquitors.

>>96116729
Does that mean I can use an allied detachment of just moirax? I've heard their grav pulsars suck this edition so I'll probably stick to the lightning locks

>>96118900
I saw no description of allied units in the LA books compilation or rulebook, but it seems like units are getting a penalty to LD and CL when a unit from another faction (with a command or specialist trait) joins them. Overseer doesn't have that penalty when he joins Solar Auxilia units.

>>96118878
Oh I'm not saying autocannons are multirole. I thought I was saying the opposite, actually. They kill heavy infantry and speeders, and can, incidentally, attack light vehicles. I'm talking Rhinos. Even if they kill a Rhino in one go, like, they better, no? They already cost like 4 times it does.
So no, I'm saying Autocannons hit multiwound infantry and cavalry more than they do HP vehicles.

Good point on the stats, I'll consider them moving. And thus, I'll have them disembark and attack a vehicle flank (12" + 7"), because they can now do that lol.
But can doesn't mean should. That's 310 pts minumum.

>>96118853
They're pretty solid. Cost the same as a thunder hammer, hit harder strength wise (x2 SM as opposed to the TH's +3) but are just a tad slower. Do 2 damage so they're splatting most termi's and vets with one punch. You can run them in a veteran assault unit on every marine to have a squad of ws5 uppercutting jetpack cunts to get some VP with their vanguard trait

>>96118949
Wow that's wank

>>96118887
I don't care what he looks like, but his teleprompter corporate reading gave me the ick.

When I was reading WDs it was clear that the people writing were into warhammer, they were different but still nerds like you.

Now they're just employees telling me to buy the product, they could be selling toothbrushes and used cars it'd be the same to me

>>96118955
>x2
it's +4

>>96118917
GW knows. They need you to buy them. There's a guy bullying them. He follows their workers home, talking about negative sales.
He broke into a store, got inside the walls and taunted the owner
>I'm in heavy cover! I'm in heavy cover! You'll need a fucking mortar to pull me out hahahaha!!
Nasty stuff

Odds we ever get plastic planes?
I just really like how the Xiphon looks man

>>96118957
NTA but I sorta agree, though from what I've heard apparently SA are getting some kinda shitty morale stats (advanced characteristics? I don't know what all 4 of them are called) so he could be good for that...But I swear I remember reading somewhere that units not from the same army can't go into the same transport, so like it basically makes him useless? Who the fuck is walking a 20 man rifleman platoon in 3.0 like seriously. Maybe command voxes could still be worthwhile but I remember hearing that they got a kick in the nuts somehow

>>96118969
plastic 28mm thunderhawk one day for sure

>>96118964
You are correct. I have no idea where I got 2x from...I could have sworn it was on that community article post and thats why I got it mixed up but I just checked and it's +4 there too.

>>96118878
>>96118696
Status Effect is automatic on a Glance; at BS4 for a S7 weapon vs AV13 that's 1/9, which is quite commonly going to happen (you might expect it to happen twice from 9 autocannon, if you were a dumb cunt)

the chance of two autocannon Glances causing the Status Effect is 1/3, the chance overall of getting those two Glances is either 1/243 (with Status Effect pair) or 1/81 (without)

but since that's reached through rolls that can only give certain ranges of outcomes it's not like betting on the geegees; you don't need to make 243 shots to get 1HP via Status Effects, because each autocannon shot is 1/9 against the Front (never mind the sides or rear); and it's not really 1/3 each time - it's 1/2 after the second Status Effect and 1/1 after the third;and it's impossible to get a result between 1/9 and 1/81 on this path, but, like flipping a coin where there are only two possible outcomes, the probability still drops drastically each time you call it correctly

leaving aside the fact that each Status Effect massively reduces the effectiveness of the target and for a Predator is hard to repair, the chance of a Penetrating hit on the Side is still 1/9 and the Predator lacks a save - so it's on to lose 2HP at 8/1 for each shot

>>96118957
I think the point of having him is for SA melee squads to have a chance against normal 1w marines. With his +1i AP weapon and 5 attacks (at S3 though), he has a chance to kill a couple of them before they kill his SA squad. Fear improves lasfire section chance to rout the attacking squad after overwatch (if they suffer 25%).

>>96118991
>ap3*
also he has 9 CL LD, if SA stats are low, he can kinda fix them

>>96118975
Don't worry, for some reason I thought Power Fist was D3. I checked right now, and it's D2. I must have mixed it up with Salamander's Power Fist.

It's not enought that a vehicle is immobilized and reduced to snapshots and can't react. I must see it explooode!

>>96116238 (OP)
Off to a large store today and want to get involved with heresy but I don’t want the fucking Saturnine box. What would you recommend /tg/? I like Iron Warriors, Imp Fists and kinda like Death Guard, I haven’t chosen the legion so suggestions for units that could be used in all would be great

>>96118991
>I think the point of having him is for SA melee squads
He does have access to a vexilla and a fast melee weapon, but the point of the Overseer is for him to give his Ld & Cool 9 to an Auxilia unit - notice how he's no longer restricted to a lasrifle squad. You could attach him to a flamer Veletaris squad and they just wouldn't break.
Panic people up, then pursue and whatnot

>>96118306
>Daggers don't add a weapon, they replace a weapon
>Attack Modifier: None
Fuck daggers oof

>>96119030
You can't go wrong with some tacticals (you're gonna need them in some capacity) so that'd be my recommendation if you want to pick a box of some kind up. All 3 of the legions you listed like their mk3 armour, so if they have a box there shoot for it. If you don't want 20 dudes and want to start "smaller", all those legions also like their artillery, so a box of those rapier batteries wouldn't go amiss, either variant would be fine

GW should pay me for this shilling

>>96119030
30k is more of a narrative, aesthetic rule of cool kinda game. Don't focus on chasing meta units. Grab what you like the look of.

>>96119030
Those are all the grindey, basic boys with bolters Legions. IF focus more on defensive themes, IW and DG are trench bastards and mud waders. IW reject statuses because they don't care about anything, DG keep carrying on and have a bit more affinity with heavy weapons. IF have walking walls and better aim with bolters and auto weapons.

You need to decide which theme you like first, but you cannot go wrong with mass tacticals for any of those legions, and they're a keystone for both lists and themes for them.

>>96117621
>>96117594
>>96117377
>>96117245
We posting army lists now? Here's my Dreadwing 1st Company, commanded by Farith Redloss in Saturnine Armour. The Praetor goes with the Saturnine (Naufragia) Terminators in Deep Strike, the Interemptors go in the Rhino, and the Paladin leads the Deathwing Companions in the Land Raider.

Crusade Primary Detachment:
High Command: Praetor in Saturnine Armour w/ Axe, Fist, Plasma Blaster, Teleporter - 270 points
Command: Centurion w/ Terranic Greatsword, Disintegrator Pistol, Vexilla - 95 points
-Prime Benefit: Paladin of the Hekatonastika
Troops: Tactical Squad, 20x Marines, Sergeant w/ Combi-Disintegrator, Volkite Serpenta - 215 points
-Prime Benefit: Logistical Benefit
Transport: Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher and Pintle Combi-Bolter - 70 points
War Engine: Saturnine Dreadnought w/ Heavy Plasma Bombard, Disintegrator Cannon, Photonic Incinerators - 340 points

Army Vanguard Apex Detachment:
Elite: Tactical Veteran Squad: 10x Marines, 7x Disintegrator Rifles, 2x Heavy Disintegrators, Sergeant w/ Calibanite Warblade + Disintegrator Pistol - 260 points
-Prime Benefit: Logistical Benefit
Elite: Tactical Veteran Squad: 10x Marines, 7x Disintegrator Rifles, 2x Heavy Disintegrators, Sergeant w/ Calibanite Warblade + Disintegrator Pistol - 260 points
Elite: Seeker Squad: 5x Marines w/ Kraken Bolters - 105 points
Heavy Transport: Land Raider Carrier w/ 3x Twin Lascannons, Multi-Melta - 300 points

Dreadwing Cadre Auxiliary Detachment:
Support: Interemptor Squad, 10x Marines w/ 1 Plasma Incinerator, 1 Destroyer Missile Launcher - 255 points
-Prime Benefit: Combat Veterans

Deathwing Conclave Auxiliary Detachment:
Retinue: Deathwing Companions, Sergeant w/ Terranic Greatsword, Plasma Pistol, 2 w/ Power Fist, Bolter, 4 w/ Calibanite Warblade, Plasma Pistol, 3 w/ Calibanite Warblade, Shield - 410 points
-Prime Benefit: Master Sergeant
Heavy Assault: Saturnine Terminators, 6x Marines w/ Plasma Bombards, Fists, Particle Shredders - 410 points

>>96119050
>>96119052
>>96119071

Thanks boys! I’ll try and find some MkIII and I also really like the artillery battery of tank dudes they seem cool. I’m coming from 40K so I need to slowly change my mindset of rule of cool and also thematic narrative game, I love historicals so this shouldn’t be an issue.

Recently become a parent and I just can’t be bothered to keep up with 40K, heresy seems like a game I can work on for a long time and still enjoy without reading a billion new rules and it seems like it has that vibe of this is a detachment of your dudes, but try and keep your dudes within their framework which appeals to me.

Mark VI armour, any good for those legions?

>>96119100
That's a whole kettle of fish. Every Legion had them, but IW distinctly don't like it, and you're much more likely to see Mkiii and Mkii in those Legions.

>>96118817
Mechanicum Castellax also have firestorm but only the Variant without special weapons, No volley fire melta.

The auxilia light sentinels also have firestorm, its a rare rule honestly.

>>96119100
If you like mk6, run mk6. Literally no one will comment on it outside of lore/thematic discussion online pretty much. Not like different power armor has different rules anyway. It's only if *you* care about that generally mk3 was preferred for those siege-focused legions because it was the most up-armored. More resistant when getting shot frontally.

>>96119100
All legions used all armour marks but if you want to be pedantic; of the 3 you listed I'd say IF used them more predominantly since they started mass raising new companies and they had the resources on terra to pump out the mk6; DG used them but were pretty autistic about using heavier duty armour since Its implied it's more friendly with the chemical warfare and constant grinder-type warfare shit they like to do. IW were kind of autistic and outright despised using it for whatever reason, but you can easily handwave those things aside and just say that your dudes are using what they have on hand, no one will get mad at you

>>96119037
Your overseer can't take a taxi with any SA units though. Walking up the board with a flamer or in a slow moving unit like the veletaris is just asking to die

>>96119134
Anything with a 4+ has always been asking to die. If there's one thing I like about 40k, it's the AP system being a modifier than all-or-nothing.

>>96119154
>the 4+ is the issue
>implying that if you just gave them terminator armour it'd be fine to march them 5" a turn on a 48" x 60" board
Just say you're a no games next time anon

>>96117724
4 turns + progresssive scoring means there is one UND EXAKTLY ONE tactic: rush objectives on the first turn and squat on them. You *must* dedicate a decent chunk of your army to that task exclusively since 4 turns is almost never enough to go for a murderdeathkill victory. You can't implement more complex approaches where you bait your opponent into engaging where and when you want before using reserves or disengaged units to rush objectives out from under them late game. Every single game is line up > advance to objectives turn one > moshpit there until you drive back enemy units > hope your dice luck won you more moshpits than your opponent because the guy with the most magical circles in turn two is almost certainly going to win in turn four.

>>96119189
>60" board
72" board. Now I have to kill myself

>>96117915
>things I care about are rules
>things I don't care about are mere balance
Aaaaand it's another antireactionfag. You guys just can't keep it in your pants can you, never manage to get your whole faux-reasonable criticism out before your spittle-flecked rage at no longer being able to just zone out on your phone during the opponent's turn leaks out.

>>96119189
>the 4+ is the issue
The 4+ is certainly an issue when every heavy weapon in the game other than Volkite is AP4.

>>96119189
1.0-2.0 saw most AP3 weapons become AP4 to avoid the pieplate removals of power armor, without drastically reducing the cost of SA. They'd have to be so cheap that they'd be prohibitively expensive to play.

>>96118817
>certain units gives them full BS overwatch via volley
>I think there are like 5 units in LA books that have Firestorm, with Moritat and Outrides being the only default units. (The other three are BA Tears, IW Iron Circle, and TS Castellax.)

Don't forget all SoH units (minus vehicles) via their death dealers trait get full BS volley fire too.

>>96118949
>only works on solar auxilia and not militia
I hope this is not a sign of things to come. Already in 2.0 he was pretty fucky with not letting militia pick provenances but that edition always felt phoned in at best.

>>96119249
Militia shouldn't need him this time around since you can take 2 HQs for allies now

>>96119216
It is, but that’s not the reason sticking an overseer into a walking unit of flamer veletaris or storm axe veletaris is a bad idea. Walking (because they are and most likely will be heavy so they will be walking) any close ranged unit like that up the board is just stupid full stop.

>>96119264
That was one of the biggest things that was fucking over militia in the older editions so good on 3.0 to have a single redeeming thing I guess.

>>96117915
>Its easy to houserule 1.0 or just not be a raging asshole and spam clearly broken combos
But it's okay, you can just fix it yourself.
>or reactions having wild scaling require houseruling to fix
Waaah, you have to fix it yourself!

Can't stay consistent in one post.

Get ready, brothers. The 40kiddies who are getting into HH 3.0 are about to turn the game into this. Here it comes

>>96119293
Nta but 1.0 has more things and is on a system that requires only balance fixes while balancing rules on top of units and adding the missing 1.0 things is required to make 2.0 stand on the same level as 1.0. It's not even close.

>>96119270
You're not wrong there senpai. Veletarii want to be in dracosans since dracosans gain assault Vehicle in solar Cohorts, basically turns the things into Temu Spartans lol.

>>96119100
MK3 is nice and there is also a MK3 command squad box with five MK3 dudes plus frame for special weapons and two banner options, which you can use to build some veterans or leaders.

The game usually still follows the idea 1HQ and 2 troops even though the new FOC is a bit more different.

In 40k starter boxes always offer more value so even though Saturnine and rules 3.0 are meh, it is worth considering the box:

If you go for not more than 1 HQ with 2 troops plus only non-marine units, like tanks, guns, dreads, special units / legion specific units, the starter box will be more expensive and isn't worth it.
I suggest to check the special units your legion offers, they usually have some special elites and terminators and named characters (of course they are good, they want to sell them, but most of that stuff isn't available for months now).
But you can go full vanilla as well: no named characters, standard units, standard gameplay.

However, if you go for 2 troops plus some special/heavy weapon squads you quickly need 30-40 tactical marines. Make sure you get a decent discount, 20% is quite common, which means one box MK3 costs 50EUR. With 3-4 you reach 150-200 bucks - but in the same shop I see the Saturnine box for 196 EUR, which includes 40 marines. So even though the Saturnine minis and the rules are shit, you get the troops of your army, a non terminator HQ, templates, the gun and MK2 looks cool too. So even though the box isn't the best, it is a good starting point.

One Dreadnought is usually useful. It could be a contemptor, leviathan or deredeo, depending on the battlefield role. In theory the box contains the new one...

>>96119305
why should I care what other people do?

>>96119305
Why do people only use L shaped ruins again? Seems pretty sauceless to have each piece of terrain be the same shape.

>>96119327
Because the designers told them to do it. They encouraged it. They wanted the game to turn into what is effectively a CCG with miniatures instead of a true wargame. And 40k fans, being rabid consumers who "devour everything we do" according to GW, lapped it up and celebrated it, like the mongrel dogs they are.

>>96119327
it is more annoying that they ignore the streets on their gaming mat which were made for vehicles to pass through. However on that world people like to build houses on top of their streets and send traffic over air vents and tiles.

>>96119305
I don't think L shapes would work with how bad the rules are. The moment a single model is visible from a soulless L shaped ruin the entire unit hiding behind it can get shot at despite not being in view. Not that L-shaped ruins or 3.0 would ever affect me and my group mind you.

Now that it's settled that these guys are auto-take (unless you want to splash out on a land raider for vanilla ws4 termies), what are their best loadouts? I'm not going all fist meme list as a matter of principle

>>96119154
Ah yes. a 4+ is asking to die so lets make every basic gun turn a 3+ into a 4+
What a great system

>>96119344
I think they picked the cheapest one available rather than a mat they were interested in.

>>96119327
It's part of the arms race between ranged powercreep and terrain. As you look through editions, things got more and more lethal, so terrain had to be made denser. They also changed the rules so most vehicles can't move through walls like they used to. So now you wanna avoid incorporating U-shaped and box shaped ruins because then vehicles would never be able to cut across or through a building. Vehicles can move over the footprint without going through the wall in 10th.

>>96119318
The Dracosans probably better than the Spartan if we're talking about points efficiency, both transport 22 models and can act as assault transports but the Spartan is 400 points and the Dracosan is like, 170 in the new edition.

Sure the Dracosan is only AV13 and only has 2 lascannon shots while the spartan has like, 10 more accurate lascannon shots but you can give a Dracosan a flareshield and still take 2 for every Spartan, for safely moving bodies 2 Dracosans get twice the volume of 1 Spartan for the same cost.

The Dracosans weakness is the Auxilia don't really have anything really dangerous to put in it. Closest they get is Charonite Ogryn or Axetarii which are fine enough at their respective jobs but are hopelessly outmatched against proper retinue squads. If marines could ride in them they would honestly be broken.

>>96119383
Alternatively, just accept the map has some places Tanks can't reach.

maybe I should buy some outriders?
from my recaster of course

>buy jetbikes
I kinda wanna be unique

>>96119395
Bikes are based. Get bikes.

>>96119398
how would/should I arm them though?

alpha legion btw

>>96119368
Aren't TH better than fists anyways?
Dual LCs would also be pretty good against the same type of unit or to take tacticals out of objectives. Since you can do sweeping advances anymore you need to kill them properly
Maybe power lances to go first and kill the enemy power weapons if you are going against despoilers or something like that. Lances and shields on jump packs looks cool
They seem pretty versatile desu

>>96119407
I've no idea how you should run them, I just think outriders are cool.

>>96119395
>I kinda wanna be unique
Not sure you are gonna be very unique with how good they look this edition

I like the Overseer in concept (marines and mortals working arm in arm is peak), but what's his actual purpose? Giving you the cheapest possibile tarpit?

>>96119407
Bolters.
They are cheap and put out a ton of shots into marines on objectives which is what they are made to do

>>96119430
>marines and mortals working arm in arm
He's not working arm in arm anon, he's whipping them into shape
Cheap tarpits, yes. It's probably an easy way to give SA good Ld stats without having to buy their own HQs tho.

>>96116878
2+ armour save spam

For reference, a 20 marine tactical squad unleashing it's 20 bolter in a terminator squad will kill around one a turn, at a point efficiency of 90 pts per unsaved wounds.

I'm currently skimming trough what exist that is either breaching or AP2, and the cost of hits / breaching wounds have roughly been multiplied by 150% compared to previous editions.

The Full lascanon squad and the Rapier battery with laser destroyer are at ballpark 50pts per hit, with rapier battery having a very slight edge in one turning vehicle potential and the lascanon squad being better at W2 infantry hunting.
This is of course per point efficiency, need to consider slot efficency (Lascanon squad are better).


Some very strong choices (IF full dakka leviathan dread) went from being borderline busted to extremely meh.

Plasma now is somehow better at hunting 2+ than 3+, but is overcosted for doing so.

Dread spam is now low tier army. WS/BS4, extremely expensive slots to get, low killingness efficiency.

Still skimming, but between reroll disappearance and limited AP2/breaching availability, WS4 terminators and vehicles might actually have their use.

>>96119385
Auxilia can’t play by marine rules, the counter to retinue squads is excessive firepower or stacking status. Axetarii are for those pesky tactical squads in the objective and Ogryns are body blockers for board control. I am wondering if a squad of volkite veletari on an Arvus would be a suitable reserver unit to shore up any breakthroughs.

>>96119323
>>96119129
>>96119120
>>96119106

Lads here’s the update I got a box of these guys to be safe, really want to take my time with whatever legion I choose. I’m tempted to get the Saturnine box set.. ie it worth it?

>>96119430
The overseer consul gives his high cool and LD to the squad he joins to make them stick around longer. That said because his squad can't use a transport they're stuck footslogging and footslogging mortal infantry will evaporate if your opponent brought anything other than lascannons and bolters.

High mental stats don't matter if the squad just gets shot to death.

Is it just me or do gorgon terminators actually seem solid now?
>shred/breaching 5+ on 3A means they can actually damage enemy elites in addition to shredding troops
>5++/5+++ is stronger than 4++
>suppressing tests are actually decent against enemy shooting units, plus T5/-1S and above make them pretty tanky against shooting
Especially at 200 points I think they’ll be decent midfield objective denial, WS4 being the only big downside

>>96119475
>I’m tempted to get the Saturnine box set.. ie it worth it?
Do you like the models?
The starters are the best value you are gonna get from GW, that's for sure. But not so much if half the models are something you don't want to use or care for like I think it's been the case for many people this time around

>>96119475
It's like 40% off compared to if you were to buy all the contents individually but at the end of the day it's still overpriced plastic

>>96119472
I don't know if Volkite Veletarii coming out of an arvus will be any good but I also do not care, I will be doing it anyway.

>>96119475
Wait for potential stock clearance from third party stores. It's not a limited release

>>96119475
Again, it ain't about "worth it". It's about grabbing what you like aesthetically. So ask yourself, do you like the look of the saturnine units or not? And even if not, you can sell the parts of the box you don't like.

>>96119475
The box is worth it if you have no troops yet.
2 troops of 10, 1 heavy support squad of 10 and you need 30 marines, add 10 more for kitbashing or special weapon squads and you need 40 marines = 200 bucks. That box offers that and more for 200, so yeah, it is still a value box. There are no combat patrols or stuff like that. The current box was the only value kit for HH all the years.

>>96119459
What’s gonna even let you spam 2+ effectively tho

>>96119507
>There are no combat patrols or stuff like that
yet

>>96119512
that would be great for many players but I'd be surprised

>>96119459
Seekers are completely busted.
The gist of it is that shot selector is equivalent to having AP2 (Breaching 4+).

Kraken bolter are hence Range 30 / S4 /AP2/ D1 Precision (4+)

A seeker squad is 23.4 pts per unsaved wounds on 2+ armour.

This is the best efficiency in the entire game, and they are more efficient than HSS squads at hunting elite infantry.

I think it's a misprint and that it was meant to be 5+, just like the nemesis bolter.


As it is, Seekers can easily get their point value back >every< shooting phase, against >any< target.

>>96119495
We share the same braincell anon

>>96119511
30pts terminators

>>96119459
>>96116878
Terminators get hard countered by jumppack veterans with THs and combat shields. I don't think anyone is goin to be complaining about them that much
The one thing I see people complaining about the most is deepstriking melta bc it's extremely easy to do and it seems pretty unfun to play agaisnt

>>96119516
Combat patrols for each faction, released in Xmas with zone mortalis rules. screenshot this.

>>96119536
>zone mortalis rules
ZM in a 4 turn game. lol. no combat at all in every ZM game

>>96119550
They'll have to either shrink ZM boards or make ZM games last longer, there's really no other options.

>>96119535
Deepstriking melta relies on your enemy bringing something thats worth the cost, meltaguns are expensive.

>>96119487
>suppressing tests are actually decent against enemy shooting units
If they are receiving volley when someone charges them and an armor save procs, and an enemy unit fails a suppressive test, that enemy unit gets a status. And units with statuses attack at i1.
Sergeant has a thunder hammer, and prime advantages can give him WS5. He will smack down the enemy unit with it before it will be able to attack.

>>96119565
Deepstriking my meltas to kill your backline recon squad, get fucked

>>96119424
>>96119436
post the page, tell me what i'm missing

>>96119582
>tell me what i'm missing
Implacable advance and firestorm, probably
And twin bolters just being 2 bolters

>>96116683
I think its a fine rule. Overload is impactful on some guns, less impactful on others. But its usually paired with powerful damage. Its never a "do nothing" rule.

>>96119487
ws4 melee unit = bad

>>96119430
My guess is that he might be able to pitch in and help with command vox stat sharing (assuming they make the command vox competent) so you aren't gimping yourself by not taking a legatine command section. We also don't exactly know how legiones auxilia stuff is unlocked/granted yet, so maybe it might require having an overseer to grant an SA ally their keyword for the cohort, or maybe he could grant a detachment or something. Despite the amount of info shared by that one site, we still don't really know a whole lot about SA in 3.0.

>>96119582
Bikes are 20ppm for 2w, so theyre essentially as durable as two tacticals for the price of two tacticals. They have four shots each with twin bolters (the damage output of two tacticals) and then move 14" (twice as far as a tactical) and have firestorm and implacable advance, so they can fire at full BS with their guns during volley fire, and freely cancel charges after volley firing.
They also have vanguard, so unlike most cav they can score. Combined with their mobility this means theyre very good at picking on those lone tactical squads you leave near an objective somewhere. They can also outflank, which is nice.

The only real weakness of the unit is that theyre bad at melee, since they only have 1A and dont have universal special weapons access.

>>96119487
5+++ is really good when it doesn't get ignored by most of the weapons used to kill you

>>96119487
Yea, they seem very solid. Still wont do well into elite thunder hammer terminators, but theyre going to be cost effective into most soft targets while being hard to kill with shooting.
Ebon keshig seem good for similar reasons.

>>96119628
They have Krak grenades so they're pretty good against light vehicles, though they do get shit on in melee.

>>96119550
>>96119558

ZM was always designed to be smaller (table and army). Only giga nerds play like 3000pts for batreps and a later as a White Dwarf article said you can play that game size (of course, buy more terrain and ZM units like breachers and the new Leviathan).
And there were no words about a game lasting 4 turns until said WD article.
It was about killing an IC or walker, holding an area, or placing sabotage markers (Imperial Armour 9) or killing as much as possible (HH1.0).

That was the original text:

> it is recommended that a 4' x 4' area
> is used for games of 1,000 points
> a side or less (which will offer an
> exciting battle lasting an hour or
> two), or a 2' x 2' for around 500
> points a side. Larger tables are best
> used as part of team games.

> Units may not select Dedicated
> Transport options.
> • No unit may have a starting size
> greater than 15 models before
> being joined by Independent
> Characters.
> • Vehicles, other than Walkers,
> may not be chosen unless their
> models are no more than 4"
> wide. Flyers may not be chosen
> at all.
> • Monstrous Creatures needing
> more than a 60mm round base
> may not be chosen.

> [Warlord traits] should only be
> used for forces of 501 points or
> more.

> Before the game begins, either
> mutually agree or roll a D6 to
> determine the goal of the Zone
> Mortalis assault on the following
> chart. This goal constitutes the
> mission’s Primary Objective and
> determines its Victory Conditions.

Would nuMkII/III look alright on Scout bodies? I heard that the MkIII were criticized for being weirdly small, but I'm not sure if that's in comparison to the previous MkIII which have a very different shape, or just the proportions overall.