Thread 96143904

The very first third-party setting for D&D, Wilderlands of High Fantasy, had weird elements, pulp elements, and science fiction, all alongside orcs and dragons. Why is this so hated on /tg/ nowadays?

It's got crashed spaceships, weird races, a Balor leading a town, all kinds of insane shit. D&D of the 70s was as much Conan as The Hobbit

>>96143904 (OP)
>Why is this so hated on /tg/ nowadays?
there are dozens of science fantasy games and settings, they just aren't D&D
Anything that takes any time to understand the setting is ignored by the main 5e crowd, the expectation is that players will show up with a character that includes a conflict and stuff which doesn't correlate with having to know a setting.

>>96143904 (OP)
Been non-ironically thinking about that for a while now. Classic pulp is an acquired taste nowadays, throwing a laser pistol inside a dungeon isn't mixing SciFi with fantasy like maybe it was back in the 70s, now it's dated and feels more like a parody than an actual thing. When your players realize the dungeon is actually a crashed flying saucer they don't usually think it's cool, they think it's silly. I'm an OSR guy, I love silly and gonzo, but I know it's not for everyone.

Ironically enough, and for all the deserved hate the fucker gets, I think Monte Cook's Numenera was a valiant attempt at "updating" pulp, with nanobot storms, AIs and so on. I'm prepping a Mystara meets Khosura hexcrawl and I'm really considering stealing shit from Eclipse Phase and Transhuman Space. "Roll save vs. Poison, that veiled painted hid a Basilisk mind-virus".

>>96144083
>I'm prepping a Mystara meets Khosura hexcrawl and I'm really considering stealing shit from Eclipse Phase and Transhuman Space. "Roll save vs. Poison, that veiled painted hid a Basilisk mind-virus".
that sounds fucking awesome

>>96143904 (OP)
So did the early Ultimas. I just listened to an interview with Richard Garriott and he basically put in everything he liked into his games. With Ultima IV, he really started to think what to put in and what not to arrive at a setting that internally makes sense. TTRPGs went through pretty much the same process.

>>96143921
Elric too, which did a lot of weird planar shit. Conan and Elric stories both read very much in the style of TTRPG sessions, LotR doesn't.

What about Arduin?

>>96143904 (OP)
Greys don't even have a stat block in D&D these days and they gimped psi to the point where you can no longer create ancient psychic Atlantean astronauts returning to take back the ancient home land they were driven out of way back.

I just think it's dumb to include the "science" part, when saying "fantasy" describes it well enough on its own.
It's dumb enough that "science fiction" has no distinction from fantasy, but now we have to have a bunch of other unnecessary, redundant, or outright oxymoronic subdivisions to further confuse the issue.
Saying "fantasy" and leaving it at that won't kill you, and calling it something else while pretending you're better than everyone else is just pretentious.

>>96146830
>It's dumb enough that "science fiction" has no distinction from fantasy
Fantasy =/= Fiction
Please stop being a moron who doesn't understand words.
The general version of the word fantasy, imagining impossible things, does not mean the same thing when used to describe a specific genre of media, fantasy fiction. Most everyone else understands the difference and this idea of whittling down all definitions into minimalist sludge to appease your limited brain capacity is antithetical to how language works.

Science fiction deals with future problems with fewer fantastical elements. It also has specific themes and how it tells them. It is technology and how people, societies, and others deal with it.
Fantasy is about fantastical worlds of magic and daring-do. Its stories take place in imagined past realms filled with dragons and monsters and spells.
Science fantasy threads the path between them, being filled with future technology and scientific knowledge while also having fantastical elements like magic and supernatural monsters.

Star Trek is Science Fiction, even if it has "fantastical" elements, because they're dealt with by science and presented as scientific.
Star Wars is Science Fantasy, with its far future technology but also space wizards and supernatural elements.
Starfinder is Science Fantasy, but leans more into the fantasy than Star Wars.
Spelljammer is Fantasy. With its magical spaceships, supernatural monsters, and complete disregard for modern science.

Just about anyone who isn't a retard or has a specific agenda can understand these differences from the context of the settings presented.

>>96149679
>Fantasy is about fantastical worlds of magic and daring-do. Its stories take place in imagined past realms filled with dragons and monsters and spells.
nah
Magical girl stories, Twilight, Tokusatsu, etc are also Fantasy

>>96143904 (OP)
The majority of people playing D&D these days don't have any idea just how fucking weird the hobby was before WotC bought it. Now retards are so abused by 3 solid decades of sacred cow-ifying a highly specific, retarded kind of "high fantasy" where everything is just wizard shit in a highly specific kitchen sink setting that is somehow now believed to be the default and most acceptable.

>>96149679
Science Fiction (in literary terms) is actually everything that's not contemporary or historical fiction. And "fantasy" was always a science fiction sub-genre, because it quite literally sprung up from "alternate history" fiction if not "alternate mythology" (which is related to paleontology, itself a scientific field). Ergo, no matter the setting, if it's not contemporary Earth or historical Earth, it's *all* science fiction, because that is the root "genre" and from there you can go into specific sub-genres, which include low/high fantasy, urban fantasy, magical realism, soft sci-fi, hard sci-fi, various horror genres, etc. etc.

>>96149679
>That which comes from one's imagination
You are too used to your subcategorized genre of fantasy, don't deny the mother that fed your subgenre.

>>96143904 (OP)
What are some other examples of science fantasy that you like, and what is needed to do the genre justice?

>I have invented something new, called the fleem, which can easily roll across surfaces
<Well, that's just a wheel, Anon.
>Yeah, but the fleem can also be attached to other things to make transporting them easier.
<Wheels do that too.
>Okay, but unlike the wheel, you can also put teeth on the fleem and combine them with other toothed fleems for complex machinery.
<Wheels can do that too, they're called gears.
>JUST ABOUT ANYONE WHO ISN'T A RETARD OR HAS A SPECIFIC AGENDA CAN UNDERSTAND THESE DIFFERENCES FROM FLEEMS AND WHEELS

>>96146764
>What about Arduin?
Not OP, but I've never heard of it before, details please.

>>96158356
Weird splatbooks of inspiration for every D&D topic imaginable, a very eccentric mix.

>>96158356
Arduin was originally a series of supplements to OD&D in the vein of Grayhawk or Blackmoor developed by a dude named Dave Hargrave. Very gonzo science fantasy, tons of new races, classes, items, etc. Light on setting elements at first. It developed into it's own system over time. I don't know of anyone who ports them wholesale into their game but they are great for idea mining.

>>96143904 (OP)
Warhammer autists infected /tg/ with the objectively wrong belief that mudcore is not only enjoyable, but the only true, proper, format of setting for fantasy. Thus squeezing out actual good fantasy genres like sci-fantasy.

>>96156395
why are you keeping my 1thread alive, Bumpfag?

>>96143933
>there are dozens of science fantasy games and settings
What are your favorites?

>>96160115
Which is funny because back in the Rogue Trader days there was cross over between 40k and Fantasy.

>>96143904 (OP)
No. All my problems started recently. Life was perfect until THOSE people showed up.

>>96143904 (OP)
>Why is this so hated on /tg/ nowadays?

As things get more popular, people A. look for ways to distinguish themselves and B. get snobby

>>96167625
Yeah, I hate the NEW-EDITION fans too!

>>96149880
>Magical girl stories
>Tokusatsu
Superhero fictions, which is a strange hodgepodge of different genres since it stems from pulp fiction where a lot of these genres formulated
>Twilight
Gothic fiction

>>96146830
>Saying "fantasy" and leaving it at that won't kill you
It will be confusing to audiences who came in for elves and knights and you just gave them cyborgs and spaceships. No not a mixture of both, not a "well technically aliens might as well be fantasy creatures", just slapping fantasy unto something that doesn't look or feel like it at all.
I don't get this shit

>>96143904 (OP)
Some people get really weird about mixing genres up to a certain point. For whatever reason, having a sci fi setting with fantasy elements is more acceptable than a fantasy thing with sci fi elements. I tried to get some people I know to look into playing wizardry, might and magic, and a couple of others but couldn't convince anyone because the sci-fi stuff made it "silly" to them. They all love star wars or like 40k, however.

>>96172363
>I don't get this shit
Theres a type of midwit that prefers a pretentious loss of labels. Everything is Fantasy so I don't have to remember all of these various genres and their differences, but I'm going to rationalize it as being better for everyone by way of minimizing all the differences that have arisen since they were created.

Its idiocy rationalized as intelligence. They cant understand the differences, whether by true retardation or simply an inability to grasp nuance, so they shrink it all down into a single word with an idiosyncratic definition that rejects how the words are used by the vast majority of people. This makes them feel smug and special, as if they have discovered some secret knowledge that everyone else somehow missed, never realising they're a retard saying things that are both wrong but also plainly obvious and useless.

You'll discover that there are several different types of this particular retard here, each with their own particular word or words they prefer to be minimized or as another anon says totalized. Wonderfag and his obsession with wonder and magic, OP and his obsession with Fantasy and Fiction, and others. They are nothing but trolls, whether by choice or whatever brain damage they have suffered.

>>96172505
The place does attract weird autists with their weird pet peeves they want the rest of the world to deal with. Tons of people here will argue with you on the most strange and irrelevant points.
I don't feel like they're actual real genuine people, they're like bots.

>>96172363
It's profoundly stupid to immediately expect elves and knights just from seeing the word "fantasy"; those audiences deserve their confusion.
Anything that contains impossible or highly improbable aspects looks and feels like fantasy, because that's what fantasy is.

>>96172505
>it is neither idiocy nor pretentiousness to say you hate fantasy but enjoy a supposedly different subgenre
>it is neither idiocy nor pretentiousness to pretend your form of fantasy is better than another just because it has a different name
>it is neither idiocy nor pretentiousness to insist the subgenre is different without providing adequate examples
>it is neither idiocy nor pretentiousness to insist the genre is different just because millions of others were fooled too
>it is not trolling to willfully ignore the fact there are no meaningful differences and continue to push the narrative that anyone who says otherwise is stupid or trolling

Stay up on that cloud.

>>96173201
>It's profoundly stupid to immediately expect elves and knights just from seeing the word "fantasy"
Or spaceships and laser guns or cybernetics etc, you agree.
Is Ghost in the Shell fantasy? Should that be labeled as fantasy, when there's a mecha anime showing off machinery and 3d from some screen do you get mad when someone turns to you and says they thought they were here for high fantasy?

>>96143904 (OP)
Science fantasy is not unpopular at all, it's the most popular form of nerdshit due to the Disneyfication of the hobby, but you knew that when you made this gaslighting thread.

>>96172363
>>96173461
Maybe they should've looked at the cover first, or read a synopsis. Are these people supposed to just be hearing the genre and then immediately hitting play on their laserdisk? Or are there other things that can inform you about the details in the show you're about to watch?

Does the name of the genre even matter that much when you can just look at the show and instantly be more informed about it?

>>96173481
>nerdshit
>disneyfication
How are either of those buzzwords relevant here?

>>96173492
>I know you have the winning argument and I can't debate it so instead of refuting your points or daring to put my honest opinion out there I'm just going to smugly dismiss you like the pretentious pseud I am and pretend I'm right

There's your (You) autismo, contribute to the discussion or fuck off

>>96173482
The cover said "FANTASY" and the synopsis said "FANTASY FANTASY YOU KNOW WHAT FANTASY IS" because we live in anon's stupid dumb ideal world
Then people will think "huh this is different from Lord of the Rings or Conan, there should be a name for this type of 'fantasy' genre" and then we're back to science fiction

>>96173510
WoHF is science fantasy and is absolutely fantastic, classic, iconic content.

>>96173461
>Is Ghost in the Shell fantasy?
Yes.
>Should that be labeled as fantasy
Yes.
>there's a mecha anime showing off machinery and 3d from some screen
Which would also be fantasy, glad you brought that up.
>do you get mad when someone turns to you and says they thought they were here for high fantasy?
No, I just immediately know they're yet another idiot who doesn't understand how deep fantasy actually is.

>>96174599
different anon but this is just shitty contrarianism mixed with being an ass about definitions.
yes, you can describe Gundam or Alien or most stories as fantasy given that they have imaginary elements and fantastical or speculative things. this doesn't mean that the TERM fantasy doesn't have a ton of connotations with genre tropes and ideas defined by Tolkien, Moorcock, Gygax, and basically most "high medieval fantasy literature" and mythology. we use genre labels to make the distinction between that and shit like Call of Cthulhu or Gundam clear. that isn't pretentious.
that other anon has a point on how all this stems from science fiction, but suffice it to say that the words have taken on a new meaning and that using "fantasy" as a catch all term for your speculative fiction will not bode well for your audience. inb4 "they should stop being midwits and read the back of the book" people like more specific genres so they can find shit they like and fantasy is the genre term for elves and goblins and whatever. i'll concede that it'd be a better world if we only used specific terms like Sword and Sorcery but come on now.

I love the whole “ancient tech is considered magic” trope to bits. Pic rel for an example of a science fantasy series I loved. The cover makes absolutely no attempt to hide the fact that wizards are simply using old tech from a pre-collapse civilization, and I love it. What are some other good books, systems, or settings that treat lost or ancient tech as magic?
>inb4 it’s a silly trope
I know. That’s why I love it.

>>96166846
A few D&D World of Greyhawk adventures (Barrier Peaks, etc)
E E Borough's John Carter of Mars series
Jack Vance's Dying Earth novels and RPG
Many Micheal Morcock novels
Terry Brook's Shannara novels
H P Lovecraft novels and RPG
Warhammer Fantasy/40k (1st ed Amazons using bolt guns, needle guns and frag grenades)
Science fantasy used to be quite a common theme, forgotten technology from lost civilisations being considered as magic items by current primitives.

>>96173233
>>it is neither idiocy nor pretentiousness to insist the genre is different just because millions of others were fooled too
Genre is a term used to explain to the potential reader what sort of story they are going to read, by reference to other, similar genres. You cannot have a "different" genre that "millions of people" are fooled into believing is different. If the title of the (sub)genre contains useful information about the works contained within it, and the listener receives and understands that information, then the (sub)genre is real.

Millions of people cannot plausibly fail to understand that when they read some collection of novels in the same (sub)genre, there are certain substantial commonalities between them which impact their enjoyment. It is both stupid and pretentious to pretend that it is, since you are pretending to be smarter than the millions of morons who can't understand that, actually, Revelation Space is exactly the same type of story as Lord of the Rings and there's no reason to sort them into separate bins in order to find similar books.

>>96149679
Fantasy is about what ought to be. Sci fi is about what could be.

>>96174599
No one will take you seriously and the world will forget about you. Deep down you know this, probably because you don't even believe it.

>>96180003
Fantasy explains the kind of story they're going to read well enough.
Also
>read
Fuck off back to /lit/, shitstain.

>>96181265
>We're going to go eat food.
>What do you mean "what kind of food?!" It's all just food, why would you need to define it any more than that!? It's all just food! That's a perfectly good definition!

>>96181265
>Fantasy explains the kind of story they're going to read well enough.
All genres can be arbitrarily subdivided, and are, once they have a large enough body of work for people to find their micro-preference/niche.

>>96182191
>I have invented something new, called the fleem, which can easily roll across surfaces
<Well, that's just a wheel, Anon.
>Yeah, but the fleem can also be attached to other things to make transporting them easier.
<Wheels do that too.
>Okay, but unlike the wheel, you can also put teeth on the fleem and combine them with other toothed fleems for complex machinery.
<Wheels can do that too, they're called gears.
>JUST ABOUT ANYONE WHO ISN'T A RETARD OR HAS A SPECIFIC AGENDA CAN UNDERSTAND THESE DIFFERENCES FROM FLEEMS AND WHEELS

>>96182866
Describing the issue back to me doesn't make it a non-issue.

>>96184726
It's not an issue. The purpose of genre is to tell readers what they are getting. People who read science fiction want to read about spacecraft and widespread technology, people who read fantasy want to read about wizards and knights, they use the words "fantasy" and "science fiction" to help one another find the books they prefer to read.

>>96167970
Also, there is whole thing of people think /tg/ is their little safe space to be an asshole

>>96184742
"Fantasy" tells readers they're getting a product of imagining things that are impossible and/or highly improbable.
From there, as far as any sort of media is concerned, there are things like cover art, promotional pieces, forewords, summaries, etc which can all deliver expectations for their product. Hell, even titles and sub titles are capable of setting expectations.
You just want to have your compartmentalized camp where you pretend your favored form of fantasy is better than everyone else's favored form of fantasy.
You just want your vorp board with a set of four fleems, that's totally different from a skateboard and its wheels.

>>96185471
Yeah, unfortunately, retard, there's no "cover art" category on Amazon, or a "cover art" section at the book store. You are so fucking stupid it's hard to believe you're sincere.

>>96178923
The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe kind of fits that bill, though it is treated less as sorcery and more as unexplainable wonder. Genuinely great books too, incredible setting, and the writing is truly something else. After the first book, it gets much more 'readable', in a sense. I really want to write an adventure for it.

>>96186098
Sweet, thank you. I'll check it out.

>>96186184
Please do, the first book is written a little oddly, but after that it gets more palpable. It's truly a classic, I'd put Wolfe on a level with the greats like Heinlein.

>>96166846
Growing up in the 80s, the big ones for me were:
He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
She-Ra: Princess of Power
Thundercats
Voltron
Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors.

The idea of a fantasy world with swords and magic, but also with sci-fi tech, has always been appealing to me.

>>96184717
Did you accidentally reply to the wrong post, or are you this stupid?