What’s the best system for actual dungeon crawls? Not monster slating arenas or encounters chained one after the other but actually exploring a hostile dungeon while being drained of resources?

>>96144880 (OP)
Any edition of D&D before WotC got their hands on it and turned it into retarded theater-kid bullshit.

>>96144880 (OP)
Torchbearer

>>96144880 (OP)
Dungeons and Dragons(1974) + Book IV(optional) + Book V(optional) + Chainmail(optional but recommended). I run Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert though if you want something with the edges sanded off.

I'm intrigued by your picrel. Is it worth reading?

>>96144880 (OP)
I'm not sure it exists yet.

>>96144997
Supposedly, Darkest Dungeon is based on it, or at least inspired by it, right? I guess that would be the place to start, because Darkest Dungeon kicks ass.

>>96144880 (OP)
>What’s the best system for actual dungeon crawls?
The one you get excited about playing. Running a dungeon crawl isn't very difficult.

>>96145066
>I'm intrigued by your picrel. Is it worth reading?
If you enjoy the Japanese interpretation of Wizardry (dangerous and serious) it’s fun. Lots of Wiz 1 fanservice. Have only read the manga though, can’t speak for the novels. There’s an anime adaptation coming out.
>>96145249
Not all systems are suited for dungeon crawls though. 5e for example just gives infinite light cantrips and darkvision to everything effectively eliminating the danger of darkness and only giving XP for killing monsters instead of getting gold incentivises a combat focused playstyle over a careful one based on exploration. Mechanics matter.

>>96145397
>5e for example just gives infinite light cantrips and darkvision to everything effectively eliminating the danger of darkness and only giving XP for killing monsters instead of getting gold incentivises a combat focused playstyle over a careful one based on exploration. Mechanics matter.
Eh. 5e dungeon crawls are fine. Use some other puzzles and challenges, instead.

Players enjoying the crawl because they like the system is far more important that the "better" system. You'll all have more fun. Personally, my favorite dungeon crawl I've ever run was in Stars Without Number because it gives you rad opportunities to show off skills and technology dungeons are awesome. Or maybe playing Myth Drannor back in 2e just because of my nostalgia for it. But 5e really isn't difficult to run fun dungeons in, especially when that's what the players are excited about playing.

>>96145417
>Players enjoying the crawl because they like the system is far more important that the "better" system.
Good luck running a dungeon crawl in something like Dogs in the Vineyard.

Shadowdark

>>96145397
You know I think it’s obligatory that you include divinity original sin style area hazards with a a bit of stalker spice added in
if you run a 5e campaign and want players to spend hit points resources and spell slots accordingly well without running an unnecessary amount of combats

But as the years roll on less and less people run the game this way
I thought I would see a return of this kind of gameplay when bg3 got really popular but no we haven’t sadly
And I’ve had far less motivation to run 5e as it’s been a bitch to run
And have been running other non d&d like systems most of the time
And my gming style is not really appealing to critters and d&d players anyway and has been attracting people who really hate modern d&d

>>96145249
>Which tool should I use for putting this screw into this hole
>WHICHVEVER TOOL GETS YOU MOST EXCITED TO DO IT!!
You don't belong on this board nogames.

>>96145397
I know nothing about Wizardry but if it's got dungeon crawls I'm interested in giving it a shot. The first novel isn't on zlib though so I might have to catch up on the rest of my To Read list.

>>96145066
Weirdly even if you are not going to directly run old school d&d it has fuck tons of great procedures to borrow from
Random reaction rolls keep things fresh even from the GM’s side of the screen

>>96145434
>Every conversation is an opportunity to throw an autistic fit
Seriously, why are you like this? Of course "ttrpgs that don't do dungeon crawls at all" are pretty bad at it. But since the overwhelming majority do it just fine, can't you use half a braincell to realize I prolly wasn't including Star Trek Adventures and Amber Diceless? Do I really need to included 30 pages of addendums with a post, because some autist might intentionally misinterpret anything we say in the most unfavorable way possible, to try to pick a fight on the internet?

>>96145471
Playing games with friends is not analogous to building furniture.

>>96145471
Wizardry is the dungeon crawler. It’s one of the earliest CRPGs together with Ultima and was essentially just the devs trying to bring the classic D&D dungeon crawl to the PC. The original style of those games where a bit more light hearted and goofy but when they got localised to Japan a lot of the humour got lost in translation and so Japans interpretation of Wizardry is as a much more serious and gritty series. Wizardry has been kinda forgotten in the west despite being an American game but it’s huge in Japan to the point where the series has been owned by a Japanese company for years and there’s been tons of Japan only sequels and spin-offs. There’s an old OVA from the 90s that comes highly recommended and adapts the first game. Blade and Bastard is set in the same world as Wiz 1-5 and has a bunch of fanservice in it for people who played the game. The characters are basically crawling through the dungeon from the first game.

>>96145526
Also there’s even a wizardry gacha which is still the classic dungeon crawler gameplay with a gacha layer over it. I’m not a fan of gacha stuff so it’s not really my thing but I still find it funny that your gacha rolls are done by finding and resurrecting the corpses of dead adventurers.

>>96145477
Why are people always surprised about pedantry in nerd spaces?
>>96145500
You can reject my premise if you want but that doesn't make in not an analogy. That being said I'll try again if you really can't understand it.
>I want to play a Call of Duty style shooter vidya
>Any Vidya can do that if it excites you!

>>96144880 (OP)
Come to the OSR General, friend. Bring torches and a sharp weapon to defend yourself, it is a dark and dangerous place but there are treasures down there.

Anything OSR and most NuSR. There's two ways for you to deliver this experience as a GM: have a bunch of premade dungeons to pick-up at anytime or make them on the spot by rolling on tables when needed. The first one is faster and easier to set a tone with, the later is slower to play but keep things exciting for the DM.

Whatever you cook, never ever assume one way to play: it's far less risky for you to set up a trap or encounter without any idea of how the Hell your player will overcome that BS than assuming they will do X then Y to activate Z. Give enough limited use artefacts and scrolls and let yourself be surprised by your players' ingeniuty.
Make sure virtually everything is limited, don't handwave carrying capacity or torch duration: this is as much as risk taking as ressource management.
Allow yourself some nasty traps and encounters but make sure you always telegraph the danger: a mangled corpse here, a pool of blood there, an overwhelming silence or sens of dread. It's specially true for the first few sessions.
Even if you set-up an EPIC BOSS BATTLE OMG allow your player to bypass it if they act smart enough. In fact, allow them to bypass any fight: be it by clever use of their surroundings, by fleeing, by negociating or compromising themselves... Factions play makes for great headscratchers and help to make the dungeon feel alive.
Whatever they decide in these tense situation should have an impact on the status quo most of the time: the dungeon found a balance before they came but now they are shaking everything up. The dungeon is a living ecosystem. That's how you let your player make a difference without railroading them on your personal fanfiction.
Allow yourself a DM PC on the first session but let him die it's grim death at the first serious occasion so they understand it's tough down here. You can indulge later on with a rival band but never forget they are rivals: it gives your player a boost in their gamespeed.

Limit reached so that's it for me

>>96144880 (OP)

b/x is best for the crawl itself, but 1e is the best for giving reasons to crawl and actual ways to spend the proceeds

What is a good dungeon crawler/old school idea of the dungeon to "solve" that does NOT rip on DND sacred cows?

I don't care for elves, classes or divine vs arcane magic. It's not really a question of rules (altough...), mind you: it's just that I'd prefer something aesthetically a bit different, ideally with space for customization/less "derived" worldbuilding.

>>96144880 (OP)
Original D&D

>>96150692
Why OD&D and not B/X or AD&D?

>>96150692
>>96150748
Please answer anon.

>>96150748
>>96157038
not him, but fuck thief forcing the creation of its niche and taking basic ass abilities away from everyone else

>>96157068
Thief doesn’t take abilities away from anyone.

>>96150595
I've had a lot of good experiences by calling it a space station or lab in Mothership. Some resources change and the players have to think in scifi terms, but I'm talking about people who never touched a dungeon or were full story game having a great time. I think it's pretty decent.

>>96144880 (OP)
There's this.

>>96157893

Definitely not what I was looking for, but thanks

>>96145477
>Seriously, why are you like this?
Not him, but it's because you said something retarded and rightfully got called out on it. People who are actually invested in trying to perfect their craft in this hobby are interested in improvements, not shallow complacency from pedestrian fence-sitting elitists. Simple as.

>>96145526
>>96144880 (OP)
Still it's wild that cRPG turned into nip franchise

>>96169282
Not really. Both JRPGs and CRPGs trace their lineage back to Ultima and Wizardry. JRPGs was just Japanese devs trying to dumb CRPGs down for consoles. The big design divide was that western devs where still trying to adapt tabletop games to the computer while Japanese devs just kept reiterating on Wizardry and Ultima.

>>96144880 (OP)
>What’s the best system for actual dungeon crawls?
3LBB OD&D, Basic D&D Holmes, Basic D&D Moldvay and AD&D 1E.
Basically nothing else whatsoever besides those and variants.
3LBB is a loosely defined game so requires expanding by the DM, or using the extra booklets but then you start approaching AD&D. Very good but requires a lot from the DM particularly if you diverge from where D&D went.
Holmes and Moldvay are both meant as introductions to AD&D and PCs stop advancing in power around 3rd-5th level. Some prefer playing these long-term, they're very well-written and easily understood, but personally I feel they work better as an introduction because once you start cribbing from AD&D to make it run longer it starts showing issues from the DM-side.
AD&D 1E is the most full-fledged game of the lot and allows high level play to work well (below 3rd level is basically considered a tutorial by some) but also requires the most rules investment upfront both because the rules are split between the PHB and the DMG referencing and expanding it as well as being written a bit ambiguously at points (initative, surprise rules etc).
OSRIC explanations helps a lot with this however and the new edition they're working on right now is aimed primarily at introducing new players to the game.

Regardless of which you end up playing to only use and run as much as you can reasonably do in a fast-paced manner. Dungeons are about PACING first and foremost.
To use an example of what I mean: if you run AD&D and don't know the Weapons vs AC rules to the point where it takes less than 15 seconds to figure it out then don't use it.
Dungeon play should be snappy and there should be consequences for being slowpokes. I personally really recommend the Classic Adventure Gaming Podcast episodes on how to actually run a dungeon to complement any rules you use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP3RhlkEhcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE8EjXVw0bg

>>96145066
>I'm intrigued by your picrel. Is it worth reading?
Not quoted but it's a neat but not great fan manga of Wizardry. The battles, evil wizards/priest, wizardry derived stuff and the art is all cool and worth reading through the rest but the manga character and story substance isn't there like it is in say dungeon meshi.
The light novel might be better I dunno. Still it's not that long so I can recommend it.

>>96147039
>>96171035
both these posts have great advice, i would add that the youtube channel GFC's DND has great advice videos for making good dungeons from scratch, as well as other things like hex crawling and whatnot if you want to move outward from just crawling dungeons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk_5gNe0oSs

>>96171035
>OSRIC explanations helps a lot with this however and the new edition they're working on right now is aimed primarily at introducing new players to the game.
They just opened up for late pledge backers in case anyone wanted in: https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/mythmere-games/osric-3

>>96171109
That channel is probably good but the Pepe in the thumbnail and the wojak profile pic means I will never watch it out of principle.

>>96144880 (OP)
From personal experience? AD&D, 3.5efinder, GURPS. D20 systems are generally superior for dungeon crawlers, with rare outliers like GURPS and maybe something percentile like Rifts if you're really autistic. No one really does creature templates quite like the monster manuals, if I'm being honest. And before you start, there's no real way to recover resources while in a dungeon in 3.5efinder. And if your DM let you, that's not a game issue.

>>96144880 (OP)
5e, if you can't run a dungeon crawl with that game, you can't run it in any game

>>96171902
>there's no real way to recover resources while in a dungeon in 3.5efinder
There's barely any way to lose them either.