Thread 96146614

Favourite edition

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Previous thread: >>96102491

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The T̶r̶o̶v̶e̶ Vault (seed, please!): >implying

>>CHECK THE SHARE THREAD FOR MISSING MATERIALS<<

TQ: What's your favourite ability/spell/feat and why?

>>96146614 (OP)
Probably Clone.
But also, we need to spend a good minute right now talking about how there's no level 9 divination spells. Other than Foresight.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/foresight/
Look at it. Look at it and marvel at how fucking shitty it is. It wouldn't even be worth casting as a level 1 spell. What the actual FUCK.

It's funny that even now, fucking SSLARN haunts us

Oh boy a new Eidolon! Finally some Summoner support!
>It's another Primal Eidolon with 0 or even -1 Cha and a special Demoralize that will never succeed. Oh, and it's weak to area damage.
Thanks I guess.

didn't look at post count/page last thread so I'll ask again
is season of ghosts actually good, or is it just popular? I can kind of see it having an unsightly twee aspect and just being popular among playactors (most players) but the premise is so solid that I'm still very curious and I'm not contrarian enough to think "it must automatically be bad," moreso just that it's probably popular for reasons I might not enjoy
>TQ: Ability
devise a strategem (when it's a free action) is just such a fun thing to build a turn around. nothing else in 2e makes you shake up every single turn you have quite like it. an alchemical investigator/free archetype alchemist was my favorite TTRPG character I've piloted just ever
>spell
invisibility, easily. it does everything. no spell slot with invisibility is ever wasted. every usage of it is fun. I love invisibility.
>feat
scroll thaumaturgy (and scroll esoterica) is the best feat in the fucking game. it's anything you want it to be

>unwieldy
>capacity: 1 round

>Monastic Weapon Stance (1 action) [Feat 1]
>Monk, Stance
>Requirements: You are unarmored.
>Any weapons you were wielding when you entered this stance gain the monk trait, but the only Strikes you can make are with these weapons.

Trying to figure out if anything breaks with this (it's an intended fix/rebalance for Monastic Weaponry).
My issue with monk weapons is they suck ass while monk stances are basically advanced+ weapons with extra features on top of that (d8 agile finesse unarmed backstabber is unheard of). Rebalancing weapons as a stance makes it easier to compare balance.

I think d10 reach is the main "no-no" that monk stances have; nothing gets d12 either but dragon stance isn't terribly far off as d10 backswing.
This stance has no extra benefits and weapons occupy hands, so I feel that if anything it's a little worse than unarmed stances in most cases. I suppose the main concern is monks archetyping to get weapon-specific benefits/actions, but that typically locks them out of Flurry anyways.

>>96147746
Oh, should clarify this would also grant proficiency with the weapons somehow.
Stances that require Monastic Weaponry would require this instead, and grant the benefits of this stance in addition to their normal benefits.
Honestly though, I feel that those weapon stances could probably just be standalone first-level feats.

>>96146614 (OP)
>ability/feat
Slam Down and the other Mauler feats because being a big fuckhead with a big weapon and smashing people around is the pinnacle of Martial performance.
>spell
Guiding Star because I like astronomical/lunar magic and it's more interesting than just blasting someone with moonlight even if it is horrendously niche.

>>96147746
I feel like making it a stance defeats half the goddamn point, and bars you from using weapon-based stances

You could hard limit to d8 non-monk weapons and leave d10 for monk weapons and stances, build Weapon use into the chassiss itself, and most people would probably still just use unarmed stances instead (with maybe a parry weapon in one hand)

>>96147746
>>96147796
Remove all restrictions desu, Flurrying with a Greatsword/Guisarme won't make Monk OP.

>>96147746
>>96147796
Remove all restrictions and make it a class feature, desu, Flurrying with a Guisarme/Greatsword won't make Monk OP.

Feeback for my homebrew? https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/M89l6Vvf

Fighter
Cleric
Wizard
Rogue

time to play pf2e as most powerful, well balanced and lore friendly party. sorry zoomers but this is the peak performance

>>96148142
Ok?

>no bard
retard

>>96148142
>wizard

>>96147962
I can't see it breaking anything, and agree that "base class feature" weapon use is just a better idea, but I do kind of think some kind of restriction (at least without further investment, assuming base chassis weapon access vs needing a feat) is good just to keep it interesting. I could also cite some shit about "muh flavor" but Monk flavor is arbitrary and nonsensical.

>>96148420
(NTA)
For restrictions it depends on what else is going on. If you want to avoid armored monk for whatever reason you could add that as a requirement. If you're planning on reverting the change to multiclass Flurry it might be a good idea to implement it such that other classes can't use Flurry with weapons, although even that is arguably unnecessary.

>>96146614 (OP)
PF1
I dunno what it is but there's just something so clean and funny about the Brawler's ability to just 1HKO any enemy that fails a fort save X/day, especially since it keys off of one of the easiest to buff stats in the game: Str.

Spell: It's a toss-up between Good Hope and Flash Forward. The former because sacrificing 10 min/lvl for just 1 min/lvl and making the spell only available to Bards is such a small price to pay for what is basically a teamwide Heroism+, which is SO GOOD I'd even consider just stocking scrolls of it for your UMD-er to use. The latter because it pairs really well with lategame Bloodrager who can cast the spell as a part of their rage, get in a charge (which, if you build correctly, you can Pounce into a full attack for that), all as a free action, then flash back to your starting position so the rest of your turn can be spent doing your traditional Move, Swift, and Standard actions, which if you're feeling spicy you can use to charge AGAIN for another round of whacking and smacking. It's basically the equivalent of Akuma from Street Fighter doing the Shun Goku Satsu.

Feat: The Planar Mentor feat chain is such a fun and flavorful series that I wish I could fit it into every character I've ever made. That's not often possible, but still.

>>96146660
Technically untrue, while it utilizes many of the same mechanics as the Conjuration school spell it calls out, Threeform Form is also a level 9 Divination spell (that also kind of sucks DESU)
Really, Divination was always the red-headed stepchild of all the schools. All of its effects are either hilariously powerful or completely useless (moreso than other schools), and the level of spell you get them doesn't always seem to match what should be the power of the spell itself.

Why was this a box set? lmao

What kind of caster weapons and weapon runes would you like to see? Since I think caster items suck. Which ones would better as runes or as items?

> spell attack item bonus
> heightening spells for incapacitate purposes
> spellshape runes such as nonlethal, if you have the feat and the rune they are free action with another use
> adds element damage & trait on spell, ignores some resistances
> trait critical effect(fire, mental, void etc)
> restore focus points for bringing back up downed allies with a healing spell
> restore focus points for incapacitating an enemy
> explosive healing dice
> ready Healing spell for one less action
> overheal spreading to allies
> creature bane runes to reduce their DC
> restoring focus points if you spend actions focusing on the weapon, reduces refocus time as well
> restoring spell slots with counteracting via dispel or other means
> augmenting spells with hero points based; reroll damage/healing, reroll save etc

>>96149826
Well, let's consider what kind of divination effect would even be worth a level 9 slot. Even something like "at some point in the future you'll die" prophecy would be a (much) lower level spell to match Suffocate. Multiple targets would be Mass Suffocate which already exists. By comparison to Wish, for example, a divination prophecy would have to be able to literally decide the fate of a nation or else it'd be a lower level spell. Even something like "you're guaranteed to fail the next three saves" would be a lower level spell by comparison to Mind Fog, for example.
Basically we have to go way back to completely ancient game design principles which are highly frowned upon in PF1e: the kind of thing that doesn't allow a save or provides absolute invincibility. Like in the old 2nd edition D&D days of Absolute Immunity, Protection From Magic Weapons and Mantle.

So, defensively, a hyper-cognitive prescience that renders the caster absolutely immune to any attack that targets any armor class or any effect which allows a save or spell resistance, probably on the order of one round per caster level would be (barely) worth a level 9 spell slot. If it had limited "charges" or a shorter duration it'd be a level 8 spell (compare to Time Stop).

Offensively, you'd need something like the old Spell Trigger or Chain Contingency type spells, allowing you to spontaneously select three spells (probably level 6 or lower?) that instantly go off at the very front of the Surprise Round, no action or foreknowledge required. If it were fewer spells it would be a lower level spell (like normal Contingency). If you had to predetermine the spells, it'd be spell level 8.

In fact it gets really difficult to come up with any kind of divination style effect which can be worth such a high level spell slot because it has to compete with Time Stop and Wish, or alternatively by definition must be capable of deciding the course of history for a nation. Which *should* be a divination.

>>96150704
pretty much any of those sound cool
I'd add an ability to use existing runes in general
"caster focus" that you rune like a weapon and gives spell attack bonus and you can also throw on a flaming rune for +1d6 damage to spells with the Fire trait and triggers the crit effect on a critical hit or failure against a save

>>96150704
> spell attack item bonus
Pretty much a given, just have them follow the same progression as Gate Attenuators. Even a +1 is good enough for me to help keep them on curve without stepping on the toes of Magus and other spellstrikers.
> heightening spells for incapacitate purposes
Pretty cold on this. Incap Spells' issues come more from design than the trait or needing to use top slots. I think getting the chance to toss more about doesn't really do much for them.
> spellshape runes such as nonlethal, if you have the feat and the rune they are free action with another use
Just tack this onto staves and wands more.
> adds element damage & trait on spell, ignores some resistances
Don't really like the design of spell piercing effects in a Vancian casting system. I get people like being single-element specialists, and some stuff like incorporable beings can be a bit absurd, but between the feats and stuff like spirit damage, I don't think we really need things like that.
> trait critical effect(fire, mental, void etc)
Don't really know what this means and sounds silly. Most elemental spells already do persistent damage or similar effects on crits anyway.
>Focus Point items
bundling these two together, both are rather easy/expected to accomplish and messes with the point of having a hard limit on focus points. You are still supposed to be stressed on knowing when to pop them.
>explosive healing dice
Might be more effective for non-Cleric healers but even then how much do you realistically need?
>ready Healing spell for one less action
Can kinda see this. Healing should be a bit more reactive than demanding as it is, imo. Healers could afford do more than just...heal.
>overheal spreading to allies
Again, how much healing do you realistically need? I could at least see temp HP, but ehhh...
>creature bane runes to reduce their DC
Don't mind this.

>>96150704
>>96150844
>restoring spell slots with counteracting via dispel or other means
I can see a once-per-day/encounter item that lets you do this without expending such over restoring a spell slot. I think counteracting as a mechanic is powerful enough as is, failing at it is actually kind of difficult if you build properly. I don't think it needs the buff.
>augmenting spells with hero points based; reroll damage/healing, reroll save etc
This one doesn't really need to be an item so much as just clarification in the rules. I prefer metacurrency mechanic to not get too much support.

Honestly, I think most items that support spells beyond item bonuses are already covered. Spellhearts, catalysts, talismans, fulu, wands, staves, I think most spell customization items already cover my preferences. It really is more accuracy than damage or supportive effects that isn't covered.

>>96150784
Again, most spells don't really need the rune effects beyond fundamental. Most spells are already good at damage, don't need the additional stacking in such, and starts getting weird in terms of power budget when you consider potent runes like Crushing or Keen. Furthermore, while weapon mages are cool, I think asking people to wield one for aesthetical purposes on ALL builds is more goofy than cool. It really is just accuracy they need to resolve.

>>96150704
As for weapons, I wanted to have the weapons be different from staves. These don't grant a bunch of spells but they instead give a focus spell(s) along with ritual bonuses, they would not stack with staves.

These weapons are called Ceremonial Weapons, they are symbolic of the school of magic that tap into the very archetypes within the weave, a mix between staves and wands for focus spells & rituals I suppose. They are good candidates for relic gifts as well

On a side note as to why: focus spells are the most imbalanced thing in the game. Some characters can easily get 3 focus points and for them to be great spells while others just have 1 focus with a shitty spell for half their career.
Adding some weapons that provide generic focus spells to your list might be the best solution

>>96150718
I could also see something like "once per round you basically get to determine what the results of a D20 result is, no matter who it is" or something along those lines. Guarantee the success of an ally? Done! Ensure the failure of an enemy? Go for it. Concerned about a saving throw that will kill you if you don't make it? You're covered!

I think this would fall within the scope of a level 9 combat spell.

>>96150881
it doesn't necessarily have to be a weapon, it could be a tome or skull or amulet or whatever, but you do you. I don't think it's going to break anything. crushing might, but fuck crushing rune that stupid piece of shit should have never been born

>>96150881
Technically, hero points aren't a true meta currency. It does have the fortune trait and is cancelled out by a misfortune trait

>>96150903
It is uncommon, so there's at least that

>>96150893
A single die per round? That's barely better than a level 1 class feature even if you can dictate the exact result of the die. Literally.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight/

In order to be worth a level 9 spell slot? It'd have to be all rolls for the entire duration without limit or action economy, and you'd have to be able to dictate the specific result of the die in order for it to be better than level 1 spells like Ill Omen.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ill-omen

In fact, dictating the result of the die wouldn't even necessarily be worth more than a level 7 spell at one round per caster level, since at those character levels the die result isn't necessarily relevant to many checks. If you can specify a crit failure or crit success, maybe, but only if you can do so for *all* rolls during the round. If you limit it to "decide whether you want to dictate only enemy rolls or only ally rolls" then it'd be a level 8 spell.

If you limit it to only one roll per round, the duration would have to be hours per caster level, bare minimum. *Especially* if such a buff is dispellable.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-disjunction/

>>96150704
Good list
Casters need more stuff

I have a 10th martial with cleric spellcasting archetype in pf2e. What the the most valuable 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells to prepare. I already have a million scrolls of bless.

>>96148142
okay but why not

Barbarian
Barbarian
Barbarian
Cleric

??

>>96152107
>Cleric

Terrible. That's where the fourth barbarian goes.

>>96152105
1st is Benediction, it's Bless but for AC. 3rd is Heroism. 2nd is tough, everything is situational. See the Unseen is safe since invisible enemies should come up at that level. Blood Vendetta isn't a terrible reaction, but I don't know what your class has available as an alternative. Instant Armor if you wear armor. Darkvision in case you need it. Marvelous Mount if you travel a lot.

Is 4e better than pf2e? I've been reading about it and it seems interesting

>>96152870
In some ways yes and in others no.
>Monster design and how 4e dealt with encounter design is vastly superior once the math was sorted. The monster manuals in general are a superior product to the bestiaries.
>Spellcasting feels much better even though you are far more limited. If you want to be lightning based blasty sorcerer, you can. All non combat and plot based magic is dont through rituals which werent perfect but alot better than what we have in pf2e.
>Adventure pacing is far superior in 4e. Healing surges is probably the best iteration of adventure day resources I've seen in a D&D edition. It boggles the mind why the designers of PF2e who were already ripping heavily off 4e didnt just transplant the system directly over instead of infinite healing so only casters have to worry about resources lol gameplay.

>>96152949
>The monster manuals in general are a superior product to the bestiaries.
>Monster Manual 1

>>96152961
What about it?

>>96152949
>4e
>sorcerer
>good

Ranger and Warlords were the gods of 4e, blaster casters were not competitive at all

>>96153001
>blaster casters were not competitive at all
>laughs in flaming vortex sorcerer
Also
>Warlord
Leaders and Controllers were both sub-optimal after a certain point outright. Warlord was only good if you had a Barbarian or Slayer Fighter where basic attacks were at least as good as any power.

1e fighter chad here. When do I stop mogging the 4 spellcasters in my party. We are level 6.

>>96153087
'Mogging' them, how?
Are you excelling at Exploration, Downtime AND Combat? Or are you good at one of the 3, and deficient to passable at the others?
>this is a troll post, but I have 5 minutes to entertain stupid shit

>>96152949
>It boggles the mind why the designers of PF2e who were already ripping heavily off 4e didnt just transplant the system directly over
They considered it, but it didn't make the final cut for whatever reason. Instead, it ended up in a variant rule as Resolve Points.

>>96152949
>It boggles the mind why the designers of PF2e who were already ripping heavily off 4e didnt just transplant the system directly over instead of infinite healing so only casters have to worry about resources lol gameplay.
Because their attempt to do so in the playtest via resonance points was so shitty, and PF1e players were so used to buying bundles of cure light wounds wands to spam, that they threw up their hands and gave up

>>96153730
Resonance points aren't equivalent to healing surges. Resonance was there to stop low level consumables from being spammable at higher levels.

>>96153087
You don't. All the "casters OP" propaganda is just bullshit gaslighting by martials to protect their supremacy. Which is a bit silly, really, since there was never any effort to give casters nice things anyway, and there certainly will never be any errata patches to fix the balance.

So enjoy your godhood, anon. Just try not to abuse the dark powers of false victimhood while you're flexing your pecs for the healers.

>>96153730
I'm so mystified whenever I hear the CLW wand spam cannard. I've never allowed players to just go shopping for arbitrary magic items. This means they actually give a fuck about their toys.

It also means that hit points are not irrelevant. So... maybe the problem isn't the system. Once again, it seems that all the problems people have with Pathfinder are because they're literally doing it wrong.

>>96138932

Update on this: Apparently, witchwarpers can now immunize their allies to their quantum field, so we do not even need to perform start-of-workday immunization exercises. Twisted Dark Zone is plainly overpowered.

Will women play Starfinder 2e

>>96146614 (OP)
I’m so confused as to why Arazni is now a major/core deity?

How does “confidence and freedom and unwilling undeath” translate to such an important slot? Like I get she’s an important character in the setting but those aren’t comparable niches to the other “major” gods. Like at all

(Using her best look because Mexican Jeet Arazni looks bad)

>>96154171
Even before having the idea of Rarity Tags and Settlement Levels...why wouldn't you let people buy low-level magic items?
The idea that every bit of magical equipment have to be crafted by hand or found in the dungeon by your graciousness just doesn't fit the fantasy Pathfinder is trying to do, even with issues like CLW spam. And even trying to make you "give a fuck about their toys", you are ultimately just pacing out when the party will just stop and rest. It's not a particularly interesting debate, even on a Player vs. GM level.
And this is still 1e. Healing is the least of your balance and experience concerns!

I do think 2e having its half-measure approach for infinite out-of-combat healing is goofy and kind of unhealthy. And I do kind of respect 4e Healing Surge mechanic more, or even 5e's Hit Dice. But I also understand that without an arbitrary hard cap on the amount of healing possible, players will just scam their way up, if not just blatantly ask you to heal them up to full after every encounter because attrition by HP isn't interesting to them. And a GM can only sidestep that perception issue so much.

>>96155738
In fairness, the "Core 20" is an arbitrary number and designation anyway. Even by that standard, there's a clear hierarchy of importance and power. Hard to say someone like Irori and Cayden are equivalent to Asmodeus and Pharasma. The Core 20 Inner Sea Gods are ultimately just the gods Paizo themselves like writing around and want to make stories with. It's not like the Justice League of Deities, as long they are well-known enough by people in any given region.

>>96152870
The best part of pathfinder is how many cute monster girls there are in the monster books

>>96155738
I think a lot of it is down to her being heavily involved in a lot of recent history and being connected to Aroden back in ancient times on top of having a big contingent of worship in Geb (though she hates most of them) and a growing worship among crusaders on Golarion. She's also propped up by other major gods, Shelyn gave her a realm in Elysium, Iomedae probably sent her old herald over.

She does have a lot of redundant crossover with other gods though, a lot of them have the undead anathema and she's quite like Calistria in a lot of ways. Just less chaotic/hedonist but I do think back to the 2 escaped slave companions in the kingmaker video game that were Calistria worshippers out of general grudges against those that sold/owned them and I think that's the sort of worshipper Arazni is after but she doesn't have the same appeal, she's not as fun.

>>96155843
The thing is I think it would make a lot more sense if she just had part of Aroden’s portfolio rather than vague shit like “unwilling undeath” and “confidence”

Her actual portfolio comes off more as a Goddess of Revenge/Spite with a Will to Power schtick tacked on. And that would be fine but she doesn’t seem to get treated that way

>>96155800
They should have made them cuter

>>96155905
1E was so Hornypilled it was based

>>96155932
Shame they had to tank the setting and theme for 2e

>>96154171
CLW wands are so goddamn inoffensive in the grand scheme of the bullshit happening in 1e, especially when the pace of an adventuring day is so heavily dictated by spellcasters as-is. Most parties I've participated in tend to be swimming in enough consumeables in the collective party stash that the wand is more just to make it so they only have to track one resource going down instead of a whole ass spreadsheet.

>>96156211
You know, that's one of the stranger things about PF2e as compared to PF1e.

In 1e the adventuring day was *mostly* limited to how many spell slots the casters had, but a decent handful of non casters would also have per/day abilities or point pools.

In 2e they basically got rid of most of the non-caster per/day and point pools so now the adventuring day is defined near entirely by Caster spell slots and to a lesser degree alchemist vials. There's not even ability score damage to force the players to sleep it off anymore, with only a couple random monsters now giving conditions that only go down when you sleep.

>>96146614 (OP)
2e
Recommend me a good free archetype for a triggerbrand. I'm planning on going STR+DEX with a gun sword.

>>96156405
attrition is too hard to balance society play for so it had to go

>>96156405
> but a decent handful of non casters would also have per/day abilities or point pools.
The problem with the point pools was that there was so many, so easy to get too many of (both point per pool and pools in general), and had limited interaction with the rest of the game. This is why they made the Focus Point system and bundled all magic-based class mechanics into them. It creates a way smoother encounter power curve and avoids needing to justify why classes like Magus and Swashbuckler just...ran out of the ability to be their class.

Casters are just going to be limited by the nature of the game, and even then relying on Cantrips and Focus Spells isn't a lost cause like it would be in 1e. So I think Paizo just figured it was a worthy sacrifice to make a hard split in terms of martial-caster design. If Magic Items weren't so...bad as well, I think they would also be a reasonable thing to slow down martials with.

> lesser degree alchemist vials
Completely lesser degree. Remember Versatile Vials recover by 2 every 10 minutes now. Unless you mean the daily prep stuff but there's not a lot of consumables I would say you need at full mast.

>with only a couple random monsters now giving conditions that only go down when you sleep.
Yeah, could argue there could be more afflictions and statuses. But even then a caster can purge them pretty easily so it is hard to argue they should be more established.

>>96156405
>>96156689
More afflictions and statuses wouldn't help because as it stands the ones Paizo has come out with have already proven that they just wanted almost everything to just be Flat-Footed+.

Seriously, look at the collection of what every status does and you have two types:
1. Flat penalty to everything
2. Flat-footed plus some other minor extra that differentiates it from the others.

EVERY negative status falls within one of these two paradigms.

>>96156826
Being blunt, that's honestly perfect to have a long lasting effect. -2 to AC to EVERYTHING, at all times it absolutely something that screams "please stop so we can get rid of this". You trying to make some dramatic decree of a failure of the game design, but that honestly works better as a long-term affliction more than Fatigue does. And that one is already rough.

On a serious matter, the tools to make more attrition-heavy gameplay is built in already. It's just not utilized to the fullest extent for whatever reason, good or ill.

I have perceived enough of the Starfinder 2e core that my verdict is that I expect a Starfinder 2e Enhanced in five years, stuff isn't really unplayably bad, so much as just almost criminally bland and underwhelming.

has anyone heard of what they changed with Solarian?

>>96158570
>I expect a Starfinder 2e Enhanced in five years

So like every fucking edition of both Paizo TTRPGs? Who would have thought?

>>96159206
Considering this is more just a PF2e expansion than a standalone system, I would have hoped they'd have actually learned how to make classes for shit, but I guess when you're pumping out an entire book of brand new classes, you cut corners

>>96159206
To be honest, that is kind of a compliment for Paizo standards. Even if you don't count the PF2e Remaster as an Unchained/Enhanced edition, Paizo tends to do better on a second attempt more than their first. Especially given how much SF1e had to climb out of the hole it dug with how bad its launch was.

>>96158570
I don't mind this per say but i just wish rpgs became a lot more digital focused so big erratas for shit that sucks can easily get thrown out. Everyone has some sort of digital device now so we dont need big books as much anymore. The flipside of this is Paizo usually only give a shit about erratas when its to nerf content.

Should we expect ObamaFinder 2e any time soon or is it usually until release date. Sorry I usually don't look for freshly released titles so I'm not sure what usual protocol is

>>96160593
>Obamafinder
Is this an oblique ACKS II reference or are you joking? Sorry we don't spoonfeed newfags around here, hit the sharethread.

>surveys mention 2e
>owlkeks blog mentions 2e
>now they're using kingmaker news to drop Gencon and PFS details
Any day now that 2e game detail will drop

>>96160978
No reference, and yeah I did figure it out after posting

>>96148142
>>>>>>>>>Wizard
lol
you mean Bard who took a Swashbuckler dedication so he can hand out +8 to the fighter's attacks (-1 frightened, -2 off-guard, +1 Bless, +4 One for All) that are already at +2 natively and turn any hit into a Crit via a total of +10 over baseline martial attacks.

The fact PF2E is literally more than half a decade old absolutely nothing has changed in this regard is genuinely retarded. But we gotta have a 2.5 edition remaster that nerfs cantrip damage and retarded paizodrones are still bitching about Slow and Synaesthesia because how dare a non-fighterman contribute.

>>96160987
between 40k and their new expanse game they seem pretty busy as is, I doubt they're making a new Pathfinder game for 2E anytime soon (especially since I'm doubtful as to whether a 100 hour CRPG that is nothing but pressing inspire courage, sudden charge, and double slice over and over wouldn't be boring enough to drive players to suicide, Owlcat combat is already bad enough when it's just left clicking enemies, imagine waiting for all 15 of the mega-buffed Owlcat goblins to individually take each of their 3 actions and animations to play for every single one.....)

>>96161123
Yes we all know you are desperate for that monster fucker VN with officially licensed art sir, but some of us do enjoy owlkeks writing enough to suffer through their insufferable hallway single solution type combat encounters.

Crpg fags just hate tactical grid squares and love to watch movies like every other modern gamer it seems.

>>96146614 (OP)
Would letting players "bank" actions ala DOS2 be game breaking?

>>96161223
>Encounter mode starts
>Stealth or turn invisible and bank enough actions to OTK everything in sight
Sounds like a good homebrew

2e
Would letting players stack persistent damage of the same type but from different sources be game breaking?

>>96161235
>Gimp team for 3 rounds to bank actions
>Cast 4 spells in a row
>monsters make 4 normal saves in a row

>>96161308
Kekaroo

>>96161298
Probably not, since it can be stacked as separate types. The main unintended interaction I can think of that results from this is weaknesses getting pinged multiple times per round, e.g. 3 sources of persistent fire would be 3 pings of fire weakness. But you could also just say all respective damage types are combined before weakness/resistance is taken into account.

>>96161123
>wouldn't be boring enough to drive players to suicide
You fuckers keep saying this as though PF1e combat isn't just as, if not more boring and one note.

>>96161123
Now let's 5e's combat...

>>96161699
Yeah but 1e systems isn't baked in woke game design as flawed as they are

>>96161223
Main issue is that devs have said 2-action abilities are generally intended to be/balanced as 1/round abilities. This is part of why the quickened condition is so locked down, and why summoner's Act Together is phrased so weirdly.

Only exceptions I'm aware of are Quicken Spell and the Bloodline Robe for sorcerer (and arguably commander's Slip and Sizzle, although this has so many caveats it shouldn't count). And these are high-level and locked down.

End of the day though, it's your table and if you're fine with caster meta being three 2-action spells every 2 rounds that's not my business.

>>96161699
PF1e combat is objectively similar to 2e in terms of validity of tactical choices and variety of effect types available. As much as I fucking HATE 2e, the combat mechanics are not particularly strange. It's all the non-combat parts of 2e which make it cancer. And to be extra fair, PF1e has a painfully limited menu of non-combat mechanics, too, it's just that it's less abstracted.

>>96161695
I think that would be the default, going by the rules:
>The damage you take from persistent damage occurs all at once, so if something triggers when you take damage, it triggers only once; for example, if you're dying with several types of persistent damage, the persistent damage increases your dying condition only once.

>>96161785
>2-action abilities are generally intended to be/balanced as 1/round abilities
It's actually crazy they went with this limiter and in the same system designed the Flourish trait and "Frequency: once per round".

>>96161879
He's talking about a different idea, of having multiple p. damage sources of the same type. Like fire damage from Ignition, flaming rune crit, and alchemist's fire.
Which no, I wouldn't say they would stack. Highest damage applies since yeah, 3 triggers all applying weakness damage is A LOT of damage to be pinging off.

>>96161895
Outside of different designers not reading their homework, they make sense in the context most Flourish/once-per-round abilities are either one action or designed to be chained together. I think even they feel they have a bit too many lmiitations on action order, hence why they removed the Open trait.

>>96161853
I think the part that gets me is I think PF2e makes for a better Owlcat CRPG specifically, because I'm going to be honest, there wasn't much noncombat mechanics happening in the Owlcat CRPGs anyway. You aren't doing any clever spell shit there, the only time I noticed them wanting you to use spells out of combat was ||dimension door to reach some treasure in the Abyss of WotR||.

With that in mind, I would rather have then get the chokehold around their neck that makes them need to account for making "normal mode" line up better with the actual TTRPG numbers.

>>96161895
To play devil's advocate, I do think having all three as ways to limit ability uses is actually good to have, rather than sticking everything under one tag, because they're different balance points. Two action abilities limiting your economy, flourishes preventing you from spamming flourish tags, and one-per-round actions for other stuff. What a given ability gets is just sort of arbitrary, though.

>>96161917
>Which no, I wouldn't say they would stack.
What are you talking about? The whole hypothetical is about all of it stacking. But there's no basis for them applying weakness separately, because all persistent damage happens all at once, and doesn't even trigger the dying condition separately.

>>96161699
Empowered+Maximized fireballs are fun to throw at people in WOTR. Making an ungodly mythic pouncebeast deleting demon lords is fun.
the average CRPG player, upon being confronted with 2e caster gameplay in CRPG form, would literally refund the game, and 20 levels of Sudden Charge isn't much better. You can't even lean on the "MUH SPELLCASTERS HAVE OUT OF COMBAT UTILITY!!!" crutch in a CRPG where everything is about combat and you can't bypass encounters with flight of spiderclimb or whatever.
Not that 2E APs let you do this anyways, you WILL walk down the five-foot-wide hallway and WILL enjoy ONE ROOM=ONE ENCOUNTER dungeons for however many books it takes you to get sick of it and quit.

>>96161917
>they make sense in the context most Flourish/once-per-round abilities are either one action or designed to be chained together
Doesn't make much sense the way I see it. Some flourish abilities offer action compression, while others, like Vicious Swing, are often just worse than using 2 standard actions. It's the same arbitrary selection as the incapacitation trait: some weak things undeservedly get it, while obvious outliers like Slow and Synesthesia get off scot-free.

>>96162048
you don't get it, 100 hours of casting Inspire Courage/Dirge of Doom+Lingering Composition and then spamming Slow is totally what people want out of a turn-based RPG, don't you know people love it when there's only one single decent status effect and entire character's only role is to be a mindless debuff bot??

>>96161972
>discord spoiler tags
disguise check failure

PF2e makes for a better CRPG in general just because the nature of more tactical, gamey games translate to...video games. Games like Baldur's Gate (1 & 2), Neverwinter, Solastra, and Might & Magic are more combat-centric than they appear. Hell, BG1 and Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 (minus Mask of the Betrayer) are BARELY a story or adventure as it is just BioWare fucking around with their D&D engine, you can get more plot out of something like Pool of Radiance or other SSI Goldbox games. Something very praiseworthy about Larian's take is that the combination of immersive sim mechanics in a CRPG framework is what genuinely creates D&D simulators and not D&D combat games. But that's genuinely unfeasible for most games, much less in this genre. So it is better to stick with what they are good at.

It isn't to say 1e is bad to adapt to a video game standard, or even something to praise 2e for. But I do think the more controlled, mode-focused atmosphere works for 2e as a vidya.

>>96161985
I guess that self-corrects in its right. Though FoundryVTT says that only highest damage of one type applies, regardless of source. And while I can't find specific rulings on such, I'm inclined to believe the computer on this one, it just far more consistent to how combining damage works. And makes more thematic sense, you can't really be on fire differently and needing to put out 3 different sources of such is weird.

>>96162150
What part of "hypothetical" do you not get?

>>96162150
Oh yea I'm not gonna pretend like I come back here for any reason other than it being leak season or seeing if the brain damage from 2hu's optimization autism is still infecting people.

I think the 1e CRPGs are kind of bad adaptations of the system mostly BECAUSE they're so straightforwardly combat focused when, even as combat focused as a lot of campaigns tend to be, a lot of the best parts of playing the ttrpg are the weird interactions in and out of combat that a CRPG just won't fucking bother with. BG3 is kind of an anomoly rather than something I expect anyone to replicate.

>>96162048
>Empowered+Maximized fireballs are fun to throw at people in WOTR. Making an ungodly mythic pouncebeast deleting demon lords is fun.
>the average CRPG player, upon being confronted with 2e caster gameplay in CRPG form, would literally refund the game
I actually don't disagree. These ARE single-player RPGs at the end of the day and most guides to other CRPGs are all about being broken as fuck. While the formatting of 2e leads itself well to making a fun and unique tactics game, I don't think it would scratch the itch for diehard CRPG fans. I still laugh at how the most optimal way of playing BOTH KOTOR games is to be level 1 until you prestige to a Jedi/Sith so you aren't wasting levels. "Balance" is already a hard-selling point, imo; so trying their hand at such on a video game level is nigh-impossible if you aren't doing the "PREPARE TO DIE" marketing bullshit. It was a major reason why I was convinced for the longest time that Owlcat just hated 2e and had no interest in the system, if Paizo at all anymore. Not sure how else would you justify them making THE EXPANSE RPG than another Pathfinder game (I've seen more sci-fi fans of Seth McFarlane's The Orville than whatever the fuck The Expanse is).

That said, I think the average 2e fan kind of outnumbers the "average CRPG fan" at this point in time. I don't know how much you can argue the people that played BG1 & 2 made up the audience that made 3 sold like hotcakes, or have played other modern CRPGs like Pillars of Eternity, Rogue Trader, Wasteland, Knights of the Chalice, Low Magic Age, Dawnsbury Day, etc. These are kind of already niche products designed to cater to their fanbases, so a 2e RPG will sell to a 2e audience and probably do just as well as anything else. And everyone else will just go "COOL, NEW RPG WHERE I CAN FUCK DEMON GIRLS/CATGIRLS/MISHAPPEN TREE ABOMINATIONS!"

>>96162206
I'll admit, genuinely forgot how the original question was worded. Bit of a long day...

>>96162283
>I think the 1e CRPGs are kind of bad adaptations of the system mostly BECAUSE they're so straightforwardly combat focused
I wouldn't fault them for that. Pathfinder already is pretty combat focused as a whole, this was just how CRPGs are made/marketed (even in the light of Bethesda games), and these are niche products. For as much as these are Owlcat showcasing how they view and love the system, they are also designed to be catered to this strange niche of gamers. And as cool as it is to praise BG3's immersive sim elements and freedom of choice...it isn't something most people would use to their maximum benefit or enjoyment. It really was more to cater to the IDEA of the "True System Adaption" than a real way of engaging with the narrative or even world.

It is why I say 2e functions as a stronger adaption fodder. Being more constrained and systemic means there's more reason to engage with all the systems they implement; and be more true to its experience and ideas, regardless of omissions.
I think of how Neverwinter Nights 2 have a full weapon/armor crafting system and I'm left wonder...why? What would necessitate this being in the game? While 2e's crafting in its own ecosystem would hold more water because of how genuinely core it is to the progression of weapons and armor and your character.

>>96162317
>That said, I think the average 2e fan kind of outnumbers the "average CRPG fan" at this point in time.
zero chance of this being true, videogames as an industry are more profitable than the entire music industry AND all of Hollywood put together. A TTRPG book selling 100,000 copies is a runaway success to brag about to the entire industry and have pretentious fuckwits analyze for decades.
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, a years-awaited flagship release for the most popular RPG in the world, released at the height of its popularity AND the height of the hobby's popularity during the pandemic, sold 100,000 copies in its best-selling month.

CRPG fans outnumber PF2E fans by a factor of at least 20 to 1 and probably 100 to 1 depending on how liberally you define "CRPG". Original Sin 2 sold 7.5 million copies and isn't based on any existing RPG and it's setting is the fucking Divinity and Dragon Commander universe that barely anyone cares about besides as a vehicle for Larian's games.


This is like somebody claiming that comic readers are a bigger audience than people playing comic book games, it's just laughable. Millions and millions more people have seen psylocke's ass in Marvel vs Capcom and other licensed games than have EVER bothered picking up a dogshit ongoing comic with sales measured in four and five digits.

>>96162048
>he modded to remove the buff bloat and hours of precasting before every fight
I see the real problem is that nogaems think that the CRPG will be exactly like it is in their head and not in real life.

>>96162529
A faithful 2e CRPG would have you micromanaging exploration mode activities and toggling "raise shield" every single hallways and a mandatory break to sit down and manually refocus, treat wounds, lay on hands, refocus after every fight and last rusty shanktown you'd still end up pre buffing with 1-minute and 10-minute effects anyways (which need to be reapplied every time you refocus anyways)

>>96162414
Listen these gentlemen don't even know that the Expanse game is made in part by Owlkek and not wholly by. They are old tired and certainly out of date with any news when it comes to video games. Take it easy on them.

>>96162414
I think you are confusing "video game fan" with "CRPG fan", which is what I'm getting at. To use your analogy, it is the difference between "have bought Marvel vs. Capcom" and "will go to a fighting game tournament".
The people who get excited about a new RPG is likely greater than the number of people that's excited for a new CRPG, especially with the idea of "ahhh, yes, I can totally break this thanks to my decades of D&D experience". Like you illustrated, these games sell surprisingly well regardless of system because the nature of these RPGs attract a lot of different people, irrespective of license. But I wouldn't say the average CRPG dude --someone that can explain THAC0, kickstarted the Owlcat RPGs, laments how no one remembers Temple of Elemental Evil, knows that Sword Coast Legends existed-- make up a large plurality of that audience. The kind of dude that would be off-put by both 5e and PF2e's design ideas aren't enough to make these games FAIL if they weren't marketed to.

Obviously video game fans trounce TTRPG fans. And there can be overlap between diehard 2efags and CRPG fans, I like the Owlcat RPGs for what they are. But I question more the idea of "if you essentially pull what 2e does and give the middle finger to anyone that played Baldur's Gate 2, that game will fail. You MUST create a game that caters to the people that grew up in those days". A game you can break over your knee like 1e/ the Owlcat ones (barring their BULLSHIT encounter designs...) always brings in loads of people, but you can still make a successful game off a balanced, tactical one ala 2e's designs. I think the 2e audience can support such on their own.

>>96162546
>RTWP/TB just like the 1e games
>refocus is automatic when you arent doing things
>search and other secret rolls happen automatically
>raise shield is a single flag to toggle
>"Use best healing by spell/item/consumable first" is already an option in RPGs
>press Shift to hide / avoid notice gets turned into a isometric stealth game
This sounds like a fun imsim to me.

Owlcat just do the right thing and bow to your paizo masters already, it's time.

>>96162551
to be fair there are community reasons aplenty to not go to a fighting game tournament

>>96162580
They're getting Games Workshop money right now, idk why anyone thinks they're chomping at the bit to make more Diet D&D especially when 40k's on the verge of becoming mainstream
I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it's way closer to becoming a household name once that Amazon show gets made than "Okay, you know the guys who used to make Dragon magazine for Dungeons and Dragons? No? Well okay like twenty years ago they lost their license and had to make a legally distinct copy to keep releasing published material for. No, it's not dungeons and dragons, but it started as backwards compatible with the rules but kind of became its own thing later on!" is.

The most exposure Pathfinder has is unironically probably the critical role fag trivia that "hey, did you know they started their first campaign as a Pathfinder game before converting to 5e? That's why they have a gunslinger and so many busted magic items!"

>>96162548
In fairness, I'm not interested in Mass Effect clones, The Expanse, or ever heard of "Alcon Interactive Group". I wouldn't even believe they were an actual development company and not just the license holder if they didn't show up in the Telltale Series Game code.

>>96162616
Oh DEFINITELY. But unfortunately the people stupid enough to risk getting sexually assaulted or ran over by a car is still large enough to consider making games for them.

>>96162096
Need this breakdown but for every system so I can see what is worth getting into.

I really like the whetstones in battlecry, they give martials some consumable silver bullets without having to rely on casters. The transmuting ingots in partictular are cheap as fuck ways to hit silver/cold iron weaknesses while getting to completely ignore different grades of precious metal weaponry. Literally 3/4gp for silver/cold iron on your weapon for a minute. Ethereal crescent is ghost touch without the drawback of ghost oil, limming gem works kind of like revealing light, morph jewel eliminates some awkwardness with physical resistances and some of the other ones are just fun.

Action to draw and action to activate is as ever a piece of shit but a few of these are replicating effects a caster would otherwise be spending 2 or 3 actions on anyway and there are always the frustratingly uncommon retrieval belts.

>>96161198
Most 2e classes can be played by a dipping bird thougheverbeit.

>>96162924
Unironically what is your favourite system with the largest tactical depth if not PF2e

>>96162975
I enjoy Battletech but that's more a wargame.

I don't really play TTRPGs for "tactical depth", I play them to relax with friends after work. Which is why a low investment beer and pretzels system like Pathfinder 2e is perfect for that. Helps that it's easy to GM for.

This isn't a bad thing. I was just laughing at the guy getting all sniffy and pretentious about video games when 2e is basically a video game already. The kind of thing you can kind of turn your brain off a bit and still effortlessly clear content.

>>96162975
prebuff, flank, mash strike, mash heal is NOT tactical depth

>>96162975
there is not tactical depth in 2e. in 1e you solve combat in character creation and build planning. in 2e you solve combat with party composition with builds being an afterthought compared to just picking complementary classes. it's like a wargame won in the list-building stage (aka modern 40k).
actual moment to moment gameplay could be scripted on a TI-89 with room left to install Doom.
as far as games where tactical depth is a thing, 4th edition did it better than 2e like most things, including not having 1500 useless spells, the ability to play a supportive martial and damage-focused blaster caster, and not needing to roll ~30 dice after every single encounter at mid-levels when running Treat Wounds RAW because Healing Surges Existed.
Oh, AND you could prevent a party with no casters from being a perpetual motion machine infinitely adventuring and full clearing whole dungeons in a single 6 hour span speedrunning 40 encounters in a day with healing surges too since they imposed a hard limit on how much punishment a character could take in a day, instead of clearing the entire Abomination Vaults in a day if you use ABP (without ABP waiting for mandatory runes to be delivered and transferring them is literally your biggest barrier to progression lol.

GURPS is kind of a cop-out answer to give but it also does tactical combat in a variety of implementations and has the bonus of not being D&D or a blatant D&D knockoff if you want some variety. Then there's games like Gloomhaven where the tactical combat is literally the whole game.

2e
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4954
Opportune Backstab triggers on a melee attack.
Does that mean it triggers on Grapple or Trip i.e. actions with the Attack trait or only on Attack Rolls like Strike?

>>96163938
Maneuvers aren't the same as melee attacks. Things with the Attack trait may not be an attack action.

Looking things up on the Starfinder2e Envoy.
Kinda conflicted on them simplifying the Lead By Example mechanic, just letting you get the Strike + Buff with just spending 2 actions over needing to set up your own buff and trigger it. It's a strange regression in design, even if realistically most people would trip over themselves setting up too many Directives.

>>96163969
There's no such thing as maneuvers though in 2e(outside of something in Kingmaker but that's besides the point). That terminology is just a leftover from 1e.
Don't get me wrong it makes sense to me that it wouldn't trigger that's how my table ruled it at first and then we changed it which is why I'd like to know where it's explained in rules.

>>96164454
you're lucky that this is an argument over pedantic semantics, smart ass...!

>An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.
>An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.
>Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.
https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq
>Core Rulebook Errata 1; First Printing

The key things come from you aren't *hitting* with skill checks, they aren't melee or ranged, and that skill checks aren't attack rolls. So 3 different ways to say no, compared to the one "Shove/Reposition/Grapple/Disarm ARE attacks!"

>>96164617
>>An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.
That alone sounds to me like Grapple should count for abilities that trigger on a melee attack. The other two quotes don't seem to refute that.

I want to agree with you. I just don't think my table would be convinced by it with a sentence that goes the opposite direction like that.

>>96164746
The magic word in Opportune Backstab's trigger is "hit". You're not hit when someone Grapples or Trips you, but you are hit when someone Slamdowns or Spellstrikes you.

>>96164770
Now that might be able to work with. At least it makes sense to me.

>>96164791
NTA but I'm with you that the rule is oddly vague and weird. I had to go on this journey myself at one point. For whatever reason, Paizo had a brain fart when defining what attacks are. At release it wasn't entirely clear whether the Finesse trait, for instance, applied to Athletics checks, which is why they had to add that FAQ post the other Anon linked to where they tortuously tried to tease out the difference attacks and attack rolls. For what it's worth, the other Anon you're talking with is right, although frustratingly the closest we ever get to the definition of a "hit" is in fact a line of text inside the definition for "Armor Class", here: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2295

>Attack rolls are compared to a special Difficulty Class called Armor Class (AC), which measures how hard it is for your foes to *HIT* (emphasis mine) you with Strikes, spell attack rolls, and other attacks.

If you tug on that thread a little and follow up by visiting the definitions for checks (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2278), you'll find a little bit more on the difference between attacks versus AC and checks vs DCs. The examples they give are:

>When you swing your sword at that foul beast, you make an attack roll against its Armor Class, which is the DC to *HIT* (emphasis mine) another creature.
>As you try to leap across that chasm, you'll attempt an Athletics skill check with a DC based on the distance you're trying to jump.

The term "hit" is only ever referenced in the rules with regards to Strikes and Spell Attack rolls versus AC, as in the FAQ. There is that weird reference to "...and other attacks" in the rules for AC, but the FAQ appears to countermand that. If you're rolling against a DC (as in the Athletics example, which is also the case with actions such as Grapple, Trip, etc.), then you're just making a check with a success condition. Is this super fucking arbitrary? Yes it is. But as best anyone can tell that's how the rules work.

Do we have the SF2e book yet?

>>96161972
Pretty sure that the complete lack of spell diversity and valid spell effects is a common complaint about the two PF games. Divination consisting of literally nothing but see invis is a fucking heinous crime only eclipsed by the way their idiotic encounter designers didn't understand that Spell Resistance being calculated from Hit Die means that most creatures are 80% immune to all spells due to how fucking retardedly inflated and wonky the statblocks are. There is a mod I use which adds to your effective caster level for the purpose of beating spell resistance and you can set it with a formula so it scales automatically with your level. That way you can cancel out the incorrect scaling of SR on creatures (there's a dragon you can fight at like level 12 with literally 42 SR.... come on now...).

The reason why there aren't any spells other than fireball and slow is because "do damage in this area or adjust the numbers of targets in this area" are easy to code. Invisibility effects are fucking awful in those games. Not only can the AI automatically detect you, it can directly target you because it auto-succeeds on its skill checks to find invisible creatures. It's fucking stupid.

I can understand why engine limitations and map design make Fly type effects kind of impossible to realistically implement except that they did make Dimension Door a thing in Wrath, like you mentioned.

But still. Scrolling through dozens and dozens of "do 1d6 damage per caster level in this area" spells gets absolutely fucking maddening. Especially when you look at the illusion / enchantment spells with hit die limits... in Wrath where there literally is nothing in the game that you can encounter with fewer than DOUBLE your own hit die.... FUCKING FUCK I fucking hate whoever the IDIOT was that designed those encounters.

>>96162048
this is why a 2e game needs to be in the same vein of turn based rpgs like fire emblem, tactics ogre and ff tactics. Being able to take a full party of different build combos through a set of condensed combat encounters would play into the system's strengths as a skirmish game.

>>96162975
GURPS. But you probably don't want to go as autistic as GURPS will allow. You probably want to pick and choose which subsystems and mechanics to allow that will suit your actual taste. You *can* use so many optional subsystems that you are literally rolling two dozen times to resolve a single attack. But you don't have to and you shouldn't.

Because here's the secret that autistic kids hate about GURPS: all those super detailed optional subsystems basically boil down to producing a result within one or two points of what the extremely abstract baseline default produces.

>>96164931
Nah I'm throwing a shit fit on the share thread to goad people into not leaking it early

>>96165527
that already exists, it's just shackled to a ghastly cast of characters and writing

2e
If my goal from grabbing an archetype was to get the ability to target Will in some way, what are my options? Just spellcasters and the aoe feats from Exorcist and the Orc tattoo archetype?

>>96164885
Thanks for extra info. Reading this also makes me feel more sane. It's nice to know you're not the only one getting stuck on such an issue.

Sucks that they didn't clarify it in the Remaster though. That would have been the perfect opportunity.

What magic items should I offer a witch or alchemist? Doesn't feel like there's as much to offer them compared to martials.

>>96166429
>Witch
As usual, there's always a staff or wand to give out, depending on spell list.
Backfire Mantles sound good to grant thanks to
>Alchemist
>splash damage
The Familiar Cache has some limited uses depending on Patron, but it sends a nice message.
Cloak of Illusions and other Stealth-bonuses can nudge them towards finding ways to hide and sneak about.
Grafts could also be cool, depending on how freaky they view their witch PC.

>Alchemist
Collar of the Shifting Spider
Alchemical Chart
Any Alchemical Recipe
Point being you are kinda looking in the wrong section. They like alchemical items, hence why their magical offerings is a little shallow beyond the standard things to improve Crafting like the Crafter's Eye or an Alchemist Lab with a free cart and horse.

>>96166631
Its an occult witch but took trick magic item. Any good spells I could offer? I'm a bit new.

>>96165541
average woke paizo defender throwing a false flag to get more people to buy at their LGS (not a big box store, diamond took all the books!)

>>96165694
Marshal has an intimidation build. Swashbuckler has a Bon Mot build, I think. These next two aren't out yet, but fit what you want. Commander has a few tactics that target Will. Field Propagandist lets you target Will to make creatures stupefied or to give them weaknesses. You need to spec into deception or diplomacy, but it seems like really good non-caster utility.

>>96166714
Wand of Tailwind 2nd Rank. They can use it every day to boost their speed. Wand of Shardstorm is self explanatory. Look through the spellhearts, every Occult or Divine caster wants a Jolt Coil and there are some other interesting ones. Familiar morsels are good too. Crown of Witchcraft is great once you are approaching level 10, but it won't break the game giving it early.

Is it worth playing 4e over PF2e?

It looks like Starfinder 2e's 12th-level advanced cloaking skin is unchanged from the playtest. I persistently pointed out that it was an item of exceptional, curve-breaking power, but Paizo seemingly thought it was fine.

For a 12th-level item, you get three uses of 4th-rank Invisibility per day, each taking only a single action. This is concentrate, not manipulate. Unsurprisingly, this gives fantastic value, conferring a 50% miss-chance while automatically off-guarding enemies.

war mage locks like shit
i mean unified theory is THE BEST curriculum

>>96167670
Felt unified theory is the worst since it effectively costs u one of your highest spell slots. However I do agree warmage is pretty garbage. Especially since the best use case for the level 8 feat spellshield is to just ignore the "drain a spellslot" since it has 'can' text and just get ur bonded spell back.

In theory, Path/Starfinder 2e classes are cross-compatible, provided that futuristic ranged weapons and easy flight options (e.g. barathu, contemplative, dragonkin, ultralight wings) are kept away from Path settings, so as to avoid upsetting the Path 2. Someone could play a commander in Star as a Veskarium military officer with a holographic banner, or a soldier in Path as a Knight of Lastwall who hacks down hordes using an archaic reach weapon.

What do you think are some interesting points of comparison between the classes? Here are some of mine:

• Bards are almost always a top-of-the-line buffer (and, with Dirge of Doom, debuffer) regardless of Path or Star. Little changes out in space.

• Champions have trouble in a ranged meta with wide, open spaces, because of their reaction's range limitation.

• Guardian physical resistance is less valuable in a setting with plenty of energy damage weapons.

• Melee rogues likewise have trouble if the rest of their party is more ranged than melee. Flanking, Gang Up, Opportune Backstab, etc. need melee allies.

• Cleric vs. mystic is a tough call. 8 base HP, healing font, and 3-slot prepared casting vs. 6 base HP, vitality network, and 4-slot spontaneous casting with a choice between divine, occult, and primal. I think that the cleric has the slightly better package, but the mystic is no slouch for a caster, either.

• The witchwarper blows away the witch and the wizard (and the playtest technomancer) with 8 base HP, light armor, and 4-slot spontaneous casting. Twisted Dark Zone at 10th makes the witchwarper arguably the strongest caster in the game: darkness, non-mental confusion, immunity only on a critical success, built-in immunization of allies by default due to quantum field mechanics. While most players will never see it, Complete Transposition at 18th and warped infinities at 19th bring the witchwarper from "strongest caster in the game" to "completely encounter-breaking."

>>96168671

• The commander and the envoy seem to be reasonably on par with one another at lower levels. The envoy's power budget is slanted a bit more towards skill monkeying than the commander is, and the envoy is worse in parties with valuable reactions (e.g. Reactive Strike). At 7th level and above, the commander is significantly better in any party with two or more melee specialists, because Demoralizing Charge is such a powerful tactic.

• At lower levels, a flying-ancestry fighter Sudden Charging in and threatening Reactive Strikes with a reach weapon is probably the strongest martial PC in all of Star. Melee weapons deal a lot of damage at lower levels, and Reactive Strikes are a menace in a ranged-weapon-heavy setting.

• At lower levels, ranged soldiers are probably a little better than melee soldiers simply because the former can take Weapon Proficiency and squeeze plenty of value from the magnetar rifle: d12 piercing, range increment 60 feet, reload 1, magazine 30 projectiles, expend 1, analog, automatic. The magnetar rifle drops off by 5th due to proficiency problems (e.g. it is not a cultural weapon for Unconventional Weaponry), but fortunately, ranged weapons in general have caught up to melee by this point due to the second damage die. Melee soldiers catch up at 6th once Punitive Strike becomes available, but once Overwatch can be taken at 8th, ranged soldiers solidify their top spot.

• By ~8th or ~9th level, once characters have weapon specialization and energy damage upgrades, ranged operatives and ranged soldiers are probably the strongest martials in all of Path and Star. While not as overwhelming as they were in the playtest, they are still exceptionally capable combatants who can deal plenty of damage at range, and have fantastic reactions in the form of operative Hair Trigger and soldier Overwatch.

• Fighter Dedication or Pirate Dedication is good on solarians because it nets them Sudden Charge: a bit better than Stellar Rush.

>>96168686

If I had to assemble an all-star team with all available material, from 1st to 3rd level, the backbone would be a flying-ancestry reach fighter with Sudden Charge. By ~8th or ~9th level, a ranged operative with Hair Trigger and a ranged soldier with Overwatch would be the strongest martials possible. By 10th level, Twisted Dark Zone is easily enough to make the witchwarper the strongest caster in the game. For an in-combat healer, I would gravitate towards a cleric, though I could also see a case for a mystic.

>>96167228
Reminder that PF1E exists because of how bad 4E was.

>>96168712

Naturally, it helps to outfit the non-heavy-armor PCs with ultralight wings for flight; at higher levels, there is 12th-level advanced cloaking skin for 4th-rank Invisibility as a single action 3/day.

>>96168739
It exists because of WotC doing licensing fuckery that screwed Paizo and other 3pps for 3.5e, and 3.5e grogs being whiny cunts attached to their edition, not system quality, you absolute revisionist assclown

>>96146614 (OP)
>Ability
Flash of Grandeur with the Brilliant Flash upgrade so you can flashbang the hell out of someone anytime they try to hit an ally.
>Spell
Runic body. Was funny as hell at early levels to see our orc druid punch through a giant crocodile's skull with a crit after I buffed him and one shot it.
>Feat
Usually a toss up of Fleet, Toughness, Diehard and/or Battle Medicine are the usual ones I go with on most characters since they're always good to have on hand.

>>96167228
Yes if you want a combat grindy game 4e is still the best, followed by 13th age
Pf2e is just retarded 4e but without any of the soul

So did they just completely forget to reprint the familiar rules in the remaster books, or am I just unable to find them on the websites? Both AoN and Demiplane have incomplete info that seems to be ripped straight from the books. I have to go to the settings on AoN and switch to the legacy version of the familiar rules page just to get what I'm looking for.

>>96169978
Nevermind I'm blind. All the relevant info is in the Pet feat. I didn't catch that familiars all count as having that now.

>>96167670
War Mage honestly seems kinda okay. Doesn't really help Wizard out of the muck its been, but I can honestly see some decent synergies with the forced movement on all AoE damaging (non-cantrip) spells. Shield Spell Reinforcements is basically Tangible Dream Psychic MC. Shielding Formation is genuinely something Wizards should have gotten with the runic circle ideas added, just a big buffing field to everyone's AC. Intimidating Spell can be fun to tack on spells. And Mage's Field Dressing can be cheesed with beneficial spells like Haste or False Vitality to have your Wizard be a genuine healer.

Honestly all I really could ask for is not being stuck on Battle Magic School, let you ignore the Sure Strike cooldown penalty, and give you actual Heavy Armor training (I need me my BIG PAULDRON mage, Paizo...). It's a genuinely decent CA that just unfortunately poorly timed, with it not helping Wizard's problems and coming after Remastered Runelord. It's not as pointless as Palatine Detective or genuinely broken as Battle Harbinger, but it does have the issue of...not adding much.

>Teams of very smart people whose full time jobs are creating board games have spent years making this game work the way it works. You’re not going to come in day 1, upend an entire mechanic, and end up with the same thing.

LOL

Does SF2e still have that "archaic" crap from the playtest? Wouldn't pathfinder weapons in SF be "up to date" with materials and construction methods

>>96171246
Tag still exists but it doesn't do anything. It just denotes something as old, not that it would be ineffectual against modern gear.

On the Combusted monster, how does the Intense Heat aura work? All it has is damage and the save, but not when it should actually trigger.

>>96169273
>Getting this butthurt over a game almost nobody plated with the shortest production life of any edition

>>96172277
It's an aura, generally it triggers at the start of your turn when you are in the listed range. I agree it's weird it isn't explained at all, but it's Book of the Dead shit, so that explains the lack of QA. I would probably have them make the save each time at the start of their turn, but you can also make them immune after the first roll. It's not like Frightful Presence or something where the effect is mental, it's a reflex save so I imagine the fire flickers and licks out at you irregularly.

>>96163850
I dunno, I can see why people might roll their eyes at seeing "GURPS" so often, but the absolute truth is that GURPS ... is... the solution to so many of the problems people keep talking about in various d20 systems.

It's become a self-reinforcing problem due to the oppositional-defiant maladaptation in much of the /tg/ userbase. They cry about having problems, but when solutions are offered, they reject it with a lot of bullshit memes. Why? Because they literally would rather whine. They don't want a solution. They want to be negative. It feels good to self-righteously analyze the design failures of a flawed system. It makes them feel smart and wise. Everyone gets together and makes a circle and they all get their spooge in the bucket in the middle and pat each other's backs about how they aaaaaaaackchually understand tabletop games.

They are not looking for a game to play. They are not looking for a game to enjoy playing. They are looking for validation of their unearned superiority from a social group they can reliably predict will agree with them.

For all the people who want to solve the problems they are seeing in d20 games, try GURPS.

For all the fa/tg/uys just looking for a circlejerk, you're already on /tg/ when you could be playing games instead.

Now you'll have to excuse me, I actually do have a game I'm running here in about an hour. And I'm using GURPS for it.

>>96172925
gurps doesn't solve pf1e's "big list of feats" problem
and you can do hilariously little on your turn

>>96172582
4e lasted 2007 to 2014 with 5e, the actual shortest edition was OD&D at only 3 years from 1974 to AD&D coming out in 1977
And even then 2007 to 2014 isn't much different than 3e which was 2000 to 2007

The "bad sales" narrative is exclusively because in 3rd edition WOTC was allowed to bundle all their inhouse IPs profits when reporting to Hasbro which meant Magic the Gathering funded D&D development, after Hasbro reorganized they demanded every single IP be individually justified and either considered Core or Non-Core, even 3.5 never made enough money to be considered a Core franchise like fucking Transformers or Magic the Gathering so even though it outsold Pathfinder and was still profitable it wasn't profitable ENOUGH to meet corporate standards (standards that, again, even 3rd edition would never meet) so it got mothballed and 5e development was done by a skeleton crew

>>96173162
Gurps turns are single seconds instead of six so yeah there's less to do, on the other hand it does allow different combat styles and shit to actually feel meaningfully different, a wizard might spend several rounds charging up a spell while a wuxia kung fu monk is punching at least once per second doing acrobatic high flying bullshit and somebody with a sniper rifle is popping heads
also helps with boring "I attack, end turn" gameplay since even the process of attacking can be done various ways and take more or less turns

I can see how it would be a turn off but at the same time it fixes a lot of common complaints about D&D and D&D clones

>>96173162
What is the "big list of feats" problem? And why is it a problem? GURPS doesn't have feats, by the way. And just in case you're gonna head in that direction, this is a reminder that you can't have everything and do everything all on one character. That's not how team-based games work. But also yes you *can* have everything and do everything all on one character in GURPS if you have the points to buy it all, so...

>>96173310
But even then, you can just make GURPS turns more abstract. Which they kind of already are. The notion that they're "one second" is a bit less strict than you might think. They're shorter than D&D or PF1e in the sense that you don't have three actions all of different types with different restrictions on what they can be spent to do, but they're just as abstract in the sense that there's a variety of "maneuvers" which each do different things.

You can still move and attack. It's just that movement isn't a separate action type. The entire "move and attack" is one single maneuver... with restrictions on what you can actually do while still counting as moving and attacking.

The main thing regards spells, as you kind of briefly mentioned already. Spells more often can eat up multiple rounds spent "concentrating" on them. In PF1e it's incredibly rare to find spells like that (restoration comes to mind with a 3 round cast time), which is actually pretty weird since one spell can have a HUUUUUUGE impact on the action economy of everyone else in combat. In GURPS all the participants' actions are much more equivalent when comparing their impact on the course of the combat. You can still change a fight with one spell. It just isn't necessarily gonna be a free action.

But just for the record, there are ways to get more "actions" to cast spells with on your turn. Various advantages can let you partition your mind to maintain concentration on one spell while your other mind(s) cast other spells or whatever. And it's not necessarily expensive if you put limitations on what those partitions can do. And that's just one example.

Want to attack multiple times? Buy the multi attack advantages. Etc.

>>96173531
Just like Charge is a "move and attack" with restrictions on how you can move and what you do when you "attack" (you can't Vital Strike, for example).

Or if you want to drink a potion and you don't have it already uncorked and in your hand, you have to spend a full round rummaging in your backpack to retrieve it. That's what the "Ready" maneuver is in GURPS. It's just that same "Ready" maneuver is also what you do for things like retrieving and nocking an arrow.

Why does firing a bow eat so many turns? It doesn't necessarily. Buy the Heroic Archer advantage. For example. But also, archery is a very time-consuming thing in real life. It's complicated and you really just can't coordinate that much so quickly compared to a guy who already has a sword in his hand and swinging it around. PF1e's six attacks per round with a bow is HORSE SHIT.

GURPS does it more reasonably. Archers do more damage with one well-placed shot that they spent a few seconds aiming. They don't just spray and pray like a cartoon machine gun.

First of all, I have never read anything made by Paizo, but I was thinking on create a PF2e adventure for my players.

The thing is, when I do an adventure based on a system I love to learn its lore first, and I heard that Paizo is woke as fuck.

How much is "as fuck" in PF/Golarion? Is all its lore and world building compromised or is easily avoidable?

>>96173500
you're not gonna make a point with semantics. it has advantages and disadvantages. through experience I've come to hate having to trudge through bloated lists of character traits

>>96173310
>>96173531
>>96173564
>boring "I attack, end turn" gameplay
haven't had this problem. always felt like there were options
having to pay "advantage" taxes for combat to play closer to how I want it sounds terrible, not gonna lie. the system just goes in the opposite direction of where I want D&D/pathfinder to go
and there's actual people IRL who have practiced to rapid fire arrows with impressive accuracy. if they can do it, it's more realistic to imagine fantastical heroes can do it than to not

>>96172925
>>96173310
>>96173531
>>96173564
didn't read.

>>96174929
The world is edgy and horny but it's been toned down in PF2E. If you want the more politically incorrect stuff, PF1E lore has it

In PF2E some of the Lost Omen covers are BLACKED, luckily all the important books use Wayne Reynolds art. A gender swap potion but there are no pages talking about gender fluid dwarves like D&D 5e. The worse the books say is that owning slaves/rape/torture might be too gross for most tables in the GM Core but you can adjust the rating as you see fit

Not only does it have Satan canonically, but also not-Virgin Mary if you want to play crusader

The human supremacist Satantic nation is playable with their own archetypes and there is an entire adventure that you play as them which is cool. They're not Saturday morning cartoon characters, they're pretty deep actually
In PF2E Cheliax ended slavery much in the same way the British empire did, mostly because they saw them as not valid for not having an infernal contract and would attack ports for trading them. I suppose the writers were also trying to balance them out in a post-alignment setting

>>96175611
Notably the Gender Swap potion was also in 1e but they made it cost significantly less gold in 2e. If you're looking for Woke-maxing in 2e then I'd direct you to the Alchemical HRT Elixirs which do literally nothing other than letting you RP a character using hormones since they give zero mechanical benefit, take months to take effect, and can basically only modify a character's fat distribution.

>>96176359
On the one hand that kind of content is so marginal and easily ignored and I don't really care either way...but on the other it's just so goddamn STUPID.
>I want to be a girl
>Cool, you can do that
>No, I want to be a man who turns into a girl
>Cool, you can do that. It can be in your backstory, it can happen in-game, it can even be a specific motivation for your character.
>No, I want to be a man in a perpetually-medicated state who never actually becomes a girl but still identifies as one, despite the means of becoming a real full-on girl being eminently affordable with no downside existing in the setting
WHY

>>96176548
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3307
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2957

The price doesn't even work out, the Lesser Version of Elixir of Gender Transformation is 1gp a bottle and needs to be taken once a week for at least a year so that's 52gp or more, the moderate version is 8gp a bottle and needs to be taken by once a month for a year so that's 96gp.

The serum of sex shift which instantly and magically completely changes your body costs 60gp.

I guess you could justify the lesser version of Elixir of Gender Transformation for a character who can never quite get the money together for the better thing, or justify any version of it for a character who either can never access magical potions for whatever reason or is an alchemist themselves and is doing it completely solo.

>>96176596
I mean this with complete seriousness, I fully believe these items were made to be used with the alchemist's combine elixir so that you can secretly change the sex of your party members
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5777

>>96176548
because the modern trans movement is a romantization of suffering for the sake of internet points rather than people actually wanting to flip a switch and solve a problem they have with themselves
it's why postop suicide rates are so high. they didn't actually want it, they just wanted to be cool on the internet for "going through a hard time." there -are- people who actually want it, those people would take the serum
>>96176596
they aren't actually meant to be used
they, too, are for internet points for paizo

>>96176596
>an alchemist themselves and is doing it completely solo.
Reminder that there is alchemical cake that is level 7, costs the same as the magical Potion, has the exact same effect, and is completely nonmagical. The only difference is that you have to spend 10 minutes eating it before the effect happens.

The same book that introduced this introduced a second magic genderswap Potion, which is temporary (unless you take 4 doses in one day, then it's permanent)

So a serum of sex shift could make a character a futa, right?

>>96177232
>Your new anatomy is as healthy and functional
I don't think so
>...as your previous body's
Ok, maybe.

>>96177347
Just to be clear, I'm talking about a functional hermaphrodite, not a neutered troon.
I guess the real question would be in the definition of "a set of sexual characteristics". Would "set" imply a complete change from one to the other, or does it just mean any combination? Following on from that, would it be possible to become fully functionally intersex while retaining the otherwise outward appearance of being purely female?(or male, for that matter)

>>96175074
If you don't like having mechanical options that's not a problem with the system, that's just your own personal shitty taste.

Just to make sure you understand why no one respects you. Or your shitty opinions.

>>96175074
Characters have build currency that they spend to accomplish the gameplay they want. That's how game design works, anon. Fucking moron.

Solarian feels confused, almost sauceless. Very Soulknife-core, albeit not quite that incompetent. I am still convinced they made a Dex or Cha class and then realized they had nothing else to fill in the checklist of "a Str class" and just slotted Solarian in.

I am extra confused because Witchwarper gets to pick between Int and Cha, so I would have assumed from that, that Solarian could have at least been picking between Str and Dex (just reduce the damage die of solar weapon when applying finesse), especially since they made Lunar Weapon in SF1e, but no.

>2e
Are there any spells that make your target fall prone? besides Command and Grease

its gonna be so funny to make a Sniper Operative with composite longbow in PF and not have to worry about reloading or bad range increments

>>96178273
So many. Do a complex query search on the nethys spells page with "prone"

>>96178297
That wouldn't really work thanks to how no Longbow have the Analog or Tech trait, so they don't count as "guns". You wouldn't get the Fighter scaling and I don't think a GM would humor you on applying the trait to them for the same reason Gunslingers wouldn't be good with bows over crossbows.

>SF2e's doubling rings equivalent works with ranged weapons too, instead of only melee
>still fucks thrown weapons
Lol, lmao even

>>96177781
>Solarian feels confused, almost sauceless.

Solarian is pure garbage

So they have 3 solar manifestations right out of the gate. But that just makes all three suck. The real way to do it is choosing 1 between the 3 at level 1 and eventually getting the chance to gain more as you level up like Kineticist and their elements. Then you could've made it so the default KAS is the Solar Weapon & strength, but choosing Solar Flare lets you choose dex. Solar Nimbus allows con.

Solar weapon is your melee dps Solarian, solar flare is the ranged dps Solarian, and solar nimbus is the tank Solarian. You choose one at level 1, and then at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 you choose to either get one of the other ones or improve one that you have already. Hell, you can even choose one you already have and dual wield them. Solar weapon and solar flare, you choose the handedness and traits. (yes, you read that correctly, we're making solar flare not completely suck)

Solar weapon can choose the thrown trait. The flare can too, or propulsive. You give the flare better range, allowing more if it takes more hands to use. You can even choose to allow it to gain even more if you take the volley trait. If they bitch and whine about it not being fair that Solarians get a ranged weapon that they don't have to reload, you give it some kind of "ammo" mechanic. 3 + half level number of "shots".

>>96178444
any gm that lets this come out of there mouth is getting laughed at then blocked

>>96178677
>If they bitch and whine about it not being fair that Solarians get a ranged weapon that they don't have to reload
God forbid that there's a way to not have to deal with the single worst core mechanic in P/SF2E.

>>96146614 (OP)
I'm suffering from burnout. Can someone tell me the best premade adventures and campaigns?

>>96179102
What are you burnt out about? Which edition?

>>96178774
So why would Operative say bows are guns but not Gunslinger?

>>96146614 (OP)
>/s2g/ (starfinder 2e) link repository: https://paizo.com/store/pathfinder/rulebooks/core
Why does this link to PF?
Is SF2e shit or something? I was looking for a fun sci-fi game to play.

>>96179298
>What are you burnt out about
Designing my own stuff. I'd like to run something premade instead to take it easy.
>Which
Every edition. PF1, PF2, SF1, SF2.

>>96179805
Most of the SF2e shit isn't out yet but in general all of the links for threads are old. Look around

Electric Arc is still king when it comes to Adapted Cantrip, right? I'm looking to grab a good offensive cantrip for a Divine caster.

>>96177512
I adore mechanical options. Just not when they're presented in such an awful way.

>>96177522
The gameplay of the system is not at all the same as the gameplay of individual characters. But do keep being mad and dishonest/clueless.

>>96179827
You can't go wrong with Needle Darts 3d4+bleed on crit starting
Haunting Hymn is the best AoE cantrip for divine, best damage type in the game too
Divine Lance can exploit sanctified mechanics and spirit is a good damage type
Daze is always good, since cantrips are normally for dealing with mooks a crit daze can shutdown free actions and reactions-- not uncommon for GMs to use mooks to ready actions and delay with them

Torturous Trauma(1d4+spell casting mod damage) and Invoke True Name are pretty neat, but they're uncommon and rare

>>96179827
It's a nice poach since Divine doesn't have a lot of reflex targetting spells. But you could also pick it up from a jolt coil

Did I fix Ranger/Inquisitor?
Still very much WIP https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/M89l6Vvf

A group of mine wants me to run PF2 but I've never ran it before - are any of the APs good to run as is? I think I heard good things about season of ghosts, but how well does it play for a new GM to the system?

>>96180325
Of those options, I'm only planning on taking Needle Darts to hit weaknesses. Haunting Hymn being a cone and the slow scaling makes it less useful to me. I think you might be the first person I've ever seen recommend Daze, I thought it was universally reviled as underpowered trash.

>>96180355
That was my thought. Having an ok way to target reflex and multiple mooks was why I wanted it.

>>96181018
Non-lethal spells are useful tools for dealing with low level NPCs you don't want to kill, I think only Torturous Trauma is the other damaging cantrip that is non-lethal

>>96180128
>I adore mechanical options. Just not when they're presented in such an awful way.
They're presented in an extremely organized and clearly labeled manner. The average advantage's description is a single paragraph long, and only about half a dozen are complicated enough to even have more than that, but that's because they're extremely important and flexible advantages. It's exactly the same organizing principle as PF1e's which is just alphabetical list in a section just for feats with tags on each feat for what type category they belong to. Sorry about your literacy, anon, but you're just fucking wrong about this one. Objectively.
>The gameplay of the system is not at all the same as the gameplay of individual characters.
Then why did you conflate them? And how are you gonna describe the distinction now?
>But do keep being mad and dishonest/clueless.
Well, since you keep getting caught out for saying absolutely retarded nonsense, it seems like you're the one who's getting angry because your cluelessness is embarrassing you.

Forgive me for being dumb but I know Starfinder 2e is coming out soon, but is there a good site for spoiler info on new races/clases?

>>96181532
The book is already on /PF2eAfterJan23. Go to the Share Thread to find out how to get to there.

>>96181568
Oh fuck... I'm high as shit but I'll try. Thank you

Starfinder 2e's shielding skin augmentation still does not seem to do much. I complained about this during the playtest period, but it went unaddressed. You pay an 8th/14th/20th-level augmentation for a +1/+2/+3 item bonus to saving throws, but this is relevant only during those odd moments when the character is caught completely unarmored. That is a steep price tag for a niche scenario.

I'm confused as hell why they said bipods, scopes and silencers take up an upgrade slot. I get the higher-grade variants, but the mundane, Level 0 and 1 forms shouldn't. It's not like the firearm customizations from Guns & Gears do.

PF2e need male energy and adult themes in it's setting.

>>96181945

I think that they were trying to copy Bands of Force ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3058 ), but forgot to actually include the item bonus to AC.

Starfinder 2e's Livestream exploration activity works as follows:
>Livestream
>Concentrate, Exploration
>Requirements You must have an item with a camera and one free hand, mount, or uniclamp.
>You record footage from your perspective using a comm unit or another device with a camera. This can be broadcast to a live audience or stored on a local device. The GM determines whether this significantly impacts your travel speed depending on the nature of your recording; simple footage doesn’t affect your travel, while playing to the camera or lining up the best perspectives might require you to move at half speed.

This has some downsides. Firstly, it requires a free hand, mount(???), or uniclamp; even if a character uses a uniclamp, that is one less weapon upgrade to work with. Secondly, as an exploration activity, it locks out other exploration activities, such as Avoid Notice, Detect Magic, Investigate, Scout, or Search. Thirdly, as an exploration activity, it cannot be used in combat. Fourthly, there does not seem to be an option to "VTube" or otherwise obfuscate one's identity, short of manually using a holoskin in the field.

What are the upsides? Seemingly nothing. It does not help a character Earn Income, and there is no mechanic for amassing followers by livestreaming, so what is the point? It would have been nice for this to give some sort of payoff.

It is also worth nothing that, despite the name, Livestream also covers recording footage via bodycam or a similar device. It still abides by the same restrictions. It still takes up a hand, mount(???), or uniclamp. It still locks out other explorations. It still cannot be used in combat. I find this confusing.

Starfinder 2e's Livestream exploration activity works as follows:
>Livestream
>Concentrate, Exploration
>Requirements You must have an item with a camera and one free hand, mount, or uniclamp.
>You record footage from your perspective using a comm unit or another device with a camera. This can be broadcast to a live audience or stored on a local device. The GM determines whether this significantly impacts your travel speed depending on the nature of your recording; simple footage doesn’t affect your travel, while playing to the camera or lining up the best perspectives might require you to move at half speed.

This has some downsides. Firstly, it requires a free hand, mount(???), or uniclamp; even if a character uses a uniclamp, that is one less weapon upgrade to work with. Secondly, as an exploration activity, it locks out other exploration activities, such as Avoid Notice, Detect Magic, Investigate, Scout, or Search. Thirdly, as an exploration activity, it cannot be used in combat. Fourthly, there does not seem to be an option to "VTube" or otherwise obfuscate one's identity, short of manually using a holoskin in the field.

What are the upsides? Seemingly nothing. It does not help a character Earn Income, and there is no mechanic for amassing followers by livestreaming, so what is the point? It would have been nice for this to give some sort of payoff.

It is also worth nothing that, despite the name, Livestream also covers recording footage via bodycam or a similar device. It still abides by the same restrictions. It still takes up a hand, mount(???), or uniclamp. It still locks out other exploration activities. It still cannot be used in combat. I find this confusing.

Solarians really took a nose dive from the playtest, sure its cool u can “mix” the ripped apart subclass abilities now, at the cost of not getting any parts of them for free. Genuinely feel they needed a kineticist type feat granter or something; cuz the class feels so empty. But hey atleast they changed the terrible shield so you can always take a feat to shield block! Level 2 blocking 1 damage for a reaction and an action is super impactful!
Genuinely why is the hardness number so damn low.

>>96182223

Solarians still have that annoying issue wherein they cannot stick multiple +1d6 damage energy damage upgrades onto their solar weapon by later levels in the same way every other martial can.

>>96181440
dumping it all in a single list and sorting them in a non-helpful way is not "organized"
it's braindead to bring up 1e when that's the original implementation that was taken issue with. if you're going to pretend that feat bloat isn't even a common complaint, then you're just taking this personally and should stop being online so much
>Then why did you conflate them?
I wasn't the one to propose using player options to patch up system design

You know, looking at Envoy's medicine subclass, and how its directive has a 30 ft range, I suddenly realize I don't remember where the fuck in either 2e system it says Battle Medicine actually requires reach/adjacency to the target? I know it said it somewhere, but I am an incredible level of blind this week or something.

>>96183147
Huh you're actually right? Battle Medicine and Treat Wounds both don't have a specified range defined. Only Administer First Aid actually states it needs an adjacent target.

>>96183630
It's been driving me nuts since yesterday, I looked through pdfs and the archives and didn't see anything, but it has to be somewhere. It can't just not specify targeting or range, that's an insane thing to just miss on such an iconic, common feat.

Peak Paizo.

It's really annoying trying to look for something 1st party for a build for PF1e only to find that Paizo didn't bother to make an option for that idea until 2e came around.

>>96182121
My PF2 party is actually looking for something just like this to expose a criminal with hard evidence. If we had a video camera available, we'd be all over it.

Otherwise documenting some kind of wide scale disaster or a cryptid that you're trailing with video evidence to support your claims later on is a niche, but handy, option to have.

And I guess space donkeys can stand in as cameramen too?

I fucking hate shield warden so god damn much. I hate opening the Champion feat list and seeing it, I hate that Shield of Reckoning requires it and was buffed to work with Quick Shield Block, I hate opening every Champion optimization guide and seeing it recommend both of these feats. I hate that Shield of Reckoning is so good it justifies locking down your blessing and three fucking feats, one of which is otherwise bordering on just being actively terrible.

>>96183671
lol.

>>96182121
The lack of free hands is just a natural limitation of playing a race with a built in disability like Human.

>>96183147
>>96183630
>>96183635
I just checked the 1st printing of the CRB, and battle medicine says "You can patch up yourself or an adjacent ally, even in combat." So they intentionally removed that. I'd check the errata page, but the dropdowns on their godawful site aren't working again.

>>96181988
So you want more... Vesk?

>>96172925
I'm going to give you a serious answer to your confusion.

Every gamer has a particular mixture of complexity/granularity and simplifcation/abstraction that they're most comfortable with.

The 'fact' that GURPS can solve any problem doesn't solve the fact that its method of doing so doesn't fit inside everyone's preffered mix. No game will ever fit everyone's crunch preference. This doesn't make you or anyone else wrong.

I could give you specific mechanical examples to make my points, but there's no point in discussing it, because I don't need to prove to you that GURPS and Open d6 have different levels of complexity.

>>96183920
Just pick up a twohander and stop being a pussy then

>SF2e has a suite of advanced weapons that are just better than the regular ones
>only one of them can be reasonably used with Unconventional Weaponry
>not a single class gets that shitty fighter feat that lets them upkeep their advanced prof
>Weapon Proficiency is still garbage
What gives?

>>96184153
does starfinder have a gun tengu ancestry for familiarity and access

>>96154445
This is neat. Witchwarper was my favorite class in Starfinder 1e, despite it being absurdly useless. Now I get to enjoy the other end of the spectrum.

>>96184153
Nobody actually cares about advanced weapon proficiency anymore, even paizo. Everyone just lets you have access to them as if they were martial. I don't know why they even bother

>>96184438
The group you play with is not everybody, brother.

Where do I actually find a Foundry online group to play PF2e? I loathe using leddit and ignore any post with LGBTQ shit in it

>>96184074
It's objectively the best game. You're just retarded.

>>96184631
Okay.

>>96184126
I am doing a different build route entirely regardless, I was just reminded of it and it pissed me off, especially since Shield of the Spirits and the Security feat line is right there. For fuck's sake. Why isn't that the feat line that leads to Shield of Reckoning? That would have still eaten too many feats, but it would have at least been a followthrough of the class mechanics.

>>96184153
Operative, unlike Fighter, just gets Legendary in Advanced Guns at 19. The area and auto-fire guns don't really need proficiency to use, just a good Class DC, which Soldier and the casters get. And Solarion don't use normal weapons anyway, so they just checked out. The only one that really misses out is Envoy.

>>96184952
>Operative, unlike Fighter, just gets Legendary in Advanced Guns at 19
Which means he's lagging behind with them for the rest of the career
>The area and auto-fire guns don't really need proficiency to use, just a good Class DC, which Soldier and the casters get.
Soldier gives a shit about prof because of Primary Target, casters won't really be using area fire in the first place.

What APs have the best community development? Preferably old ones
Some guy wrote a whole fucking novel on changes for Council of Thieves, trying to see if anything else is as well developed

>>96185154
>Which means he's lagging behind with them for the rest of the career
honestly if that's the only thing they are lagging behind, it should be worse. operative is still kinda overloaded a class.
Seriously though, it IS a little weird they don't just get Advanced Shooter but I don't think they are missing it. Honestly, it is weirder they even get Legendary Advanced Guns in their feature list. I can at least see a Day 1 errata just tossing it in just because thanks to how weird an omission is.
>Soldier gives a shit about prof because of Primary Target,
It IS a handy feature, but given how you don't need to land the Strike to mark someone as Primary Target, it doesn't do much if they already failed the Area Fire roll anyhow, and only certain feats involve directly attacking the PT, you can skirt about that to get the benefits of the advanced big boy weapons.
>casters won't really be using area fire in the first place.
Admittedly, I slept on 2 key points
>area/auto-fires are two-action, not one.
>Casters have scaling Class DCs up to Master here, you can't just rely on Spell DC to substitute.
So fair enough here.

>>96181018
Daze is pretty trash unless your GM has an obsession with you having to subdue targets non-lethally like mine does.

I guess if you have nothing better to do, you could bank on a ~15% chance the enemy crit fails the save.

do people not homebrew the power of cantrips? paizo really dropped the ball on balancing them

>>96185716
Arguably cantrips are one of the hardest thing TO homebrew up, at least beyond adding back in the Spellcasting Modifier to damage, thanks to the place they are suppose to slot in as. They aren't suppose to be better than Focus Spells, but more potent than shooting someone twice with a (non-Fighter/Rogue) bow. Even Electric Arc is in an awkward place, as while it is the de facto cantrip, targeting reflex, having an uncommon elemental weakness, and being a targeted spell over an area can be pretty rough stopgaps after Level 6 or so.

Hell, I wouldn't be sure how you make them good and balanced in 1e. And there they are less than useless.

>>96185817
>Electric Arc is the de facto cantrip
It seems silly to leave things like that. Relegating the power to one cantrip is poor practice for a number of reasons. It's better to bring up the other ones to be closer to Electric Arc's usefulness. I've never had a problem in campaigns with such a change.

Dropping spellcasting modifier to damage was a change that feels bad. Even if you revert it, cantrips can't compete with focus spells like Tempest Surge or Fire Ray, which are a good standard to follow for those.

optional free feature at level 1 available to anyone who wants to take it but you can never drop it
"your cantrips deal 1 less die of damage (minimum 1 die of damage) but you add your SCM to damage"

>>96185904
> It's better to bring up the other ones to be closer to Electric Arc's usefulness
It's easy to say but not easy to fix. Make all the PFS jokes you want, bringing up a lot of cantrips to EA's level requires gutting some of their utility or uniqueness for that raw damage and versatility. EA is so much of a flatly designed damage spell that it really does nothing else nor have to room to do so. It's why to just call it the de facto, not because its actually that powerful, but because it just does its job so perfectly by being so standard.
I think of it like 5e's Toll the Dead and how the biggest design idea is "it does more damage to foes under 100% HP". There can be a lot of interesting ideas in that field, but nothing would compare to slapping someone with d12 negative damage.
>Dropping spellcasting modifier to damage was a change that feels bad
Yeah, while I get the reason why, it does still feel bad compared to the old setup. PF2e's early game is still the worst part of the system, so having more things compound on it just suck. They have at least made good on the promise that they made more interesting cantrips to compensate for the loss of raw damage, but I do think nothing compares to the absolute awfulness of dealing 1 damage.

>>96186437
I think I rather just let spellcasters reroll a die that rolled 1-2, like greatsword fighters in 5e can. It keeps the design of cantrips healthy while resolving the real early game game-feel issue. Even if it still a 1, you can at least say you tried.

>>96182945
A single alphabetical list is literally how libraries are organized.
Feat bloat is not a common complaint.
You can't even capitalize or punctuate properly. So although good faith effort was made to indulge your ridiculous behavior, at this point you are not behaving acceptably.

Little boy. Stupid, sheltered little boy. Shut. The fuck up. Go fix your literacy problems. Get off your phone, and go fix your literacy problems.

Try a library. Ask the nice lady at the counter if she can help you find a book without pictures in it.

not even in this conversation and I hope this guy gets hit by a bus
what the hell

>>96186529
I would agree with you if the game hasn't been out for years now. Reworking most of the damage cantrips is easy. You take EA as the baseline. If something is single target it does the same damage EA does to two targets. Now we have single target EA, and multi target EA. Next, change the saving throws, then damage types if needed. I don't see different flavors of EA as a problem because most casters won't have access to all of them and I'd rather do that than pay the Jolt Coil tax or just have one less cantrip to choose from because you're an idiot if you don't have EA in a slot.