This is a situation I have noticed pop up in my games from time to time.

>Players need to go to some dungeon or do some misson (for this example lets say they need to delve into the sewers of a city)
>Players spend some time preparing, scouting where they need to go,spending time buying items they would need.
>Checking with everyone and asking "is there something we are missing"
>"no? ok then I guess we are ok"
>Head to the manhole we planned to enter through
>DM: "uh did you guys bring a crowbar?"
>"no"
>DM: "Well manholes are pretty heavy you should have brought a crowbar"
>"well we have the money and we spent all last session preparing and shopping for supplies can we just say that we would have thought of that and that we bought a crowbar during preparations? "

In situations like these should the dm play along with the players and hand them the item they need or is it on the players for forgetting and for them to deal with?

How do you think situations like this should be handled in general /tg?

and have you had a simillar scenario happen in your games? what happened?

>>96149279 (OP)
Unless there's a narrative reason why the PCs would be impeded, there's no reason to impede them.

In my specific case we knew we needed to go to the sewers 3 sessions before we actually got there. The dm put things in our path to deal with and the campaign was a bit of a slow burn so pacing was slow too, and with how the campaign was set up we only had a small window on the weekends to go questing. We went to the manhole at night to avoid being seen so we would have needed to wait til morning to buy a crowbar during which our window would have passed and we would have to play through an entire week before we got our chance again. and he still didn't let us say we bought it. I brought it up with my dm afterwards in private. I made it a point how I knew my complaint was "whiny" but with how slow the game moved forwards I wished he would throw us a bone to help the game move forwards more smoothly. He said he liked to make us think about challenges and that the slow pacing was essential for his way of running things and the details he wanted to give his world but that he should keep in mind the pacing and make sure the game would go a little faster. We left it there until he decided to bring up a misrepresented version of my criticism to the other players in a mocking tone after the conclusion of the campaign.

>>96149322
>a misrepresented version of my criticism to the other players in a mocking tone after the conclusion of the campaign.
Are you touhoufag

>>96149360
If you count liking bad apple and some of the fanmade songs a decade ago, why?

It was on him to say something like "the sewers have heavy manhole covers that will require some kind of tool to remove" while setting the scene for the heist. If he never did that, then his cockblock is cheap. If he did do that and y'all never responded, "ok put a crowbar on the shopping list" or whatever it's your faults.

>>96149279 (OP)
>>"well we have the money and we spent all last session preparing and shopping for supplies can we just say that we would have thought of that and that we bought a crowbar during preparations? "
Here's my question to you OP, if that's the key to getting into your dungeon, why is that not a reasonable compromise? You both want the pcs to get through this obstacle, and unless they're in a city where a crowbar is impossible to find, why wouldn't they logically be able to just buy a crowbar at any time?

>>96149392
He's an autistic guy who joins games, creates conflict due to the autism, gets kicked, then makes long posts on /tg/ fishing for pity while ignoring all the posters telling him the conflict is due to his autism.

>>96149491
that was brought up in my original complaint, I said that I wished he would telegraph things better. like that we would need a crowbar or tool to lift the covers

But to be fair and this is a detail I left out: He separated the sewers and the waterways of the city, we needed to go to the waterways and we went to a random manhole that lead to the sewers instead. None of the players really did pick it up but every npc that told us where to go mentioned the waterways and not the sewers but we just thought they were interchangable. When we got to the manhole we scouted "one left out of public view" we found out that it was the sewers and he made us roll against needing to puke like every 10 seconds while down there. I can see that one being on us. He brought it up to the other players making a joke that I was mad because "he didn't tell me that the sewers would be stinky"

>>96149515
This is usually how I do things when I am dming. I tend to be a bit lenient when players forget things like that unless; bringing a crowbar would give them some kind of noticeable disadvantage, or if I felt like I didn't telegraph or remind them that they would need one, or if it would not impede the sessions pacing too much making them go back to fetch it.

If at least one PC would have been aware of the item's importance then the GM should have mentioned it beforehand.
Otherwise, it's reasonable but neither fun nor interesting.

>>96149279 (OP)
In a situation where the only cost is time, making it an issue is only worth doing if time is of the essence. A group of adults during the day would take like 30 minutes tops to source a crowbar. Are those 30 minutes somehow important? Are they against a clock? Will something be different down there now that they're arrived 30 minutes later? Or maybe it's midnight and they are a bunch of teens and it could take hours to find a crowbar. Maybe they'll need to steal one.
But if nothing is going to change then making them go back and get a crowbar is just pointless padding.

I'd let the players have the crowbar, as it would improve the pacing of my game. I got stories to tell and dungeons to run them through, I can't waste time on them being retarded.

>>96149279 (OP)
Is there any one character with the wit and knowledge to know about the need of a crowbar? Did they fumble rolls?
Does it matter if they don't have one if they might have another suitable tool they can use for leverage?
Are you always a pedantic fuck OP?

>>96149561
>I said that I wished he would telegraph things better. like that we would need a crowbar or tool to lift the covers
>t. the reason cups are labeled CAUTION CONTENTS MAY BE HOT

>>96149279 (OP)
If a fuck up actually results in something then stick with it, otherwise just ignore it.
If they're pressed for time and can't simply go to a store to buy something because they need it in a middle of a dungeon or an enemy camp then yeah, make them have to come up with some other idea to fix the situation.
If there's zero reason to hurry and the situation can be resolved entirely by going back then returning, you might as well just retcon it and say they brought it in the first place because it'd just slow the game down while offering no gameplay, challenge or story potential. Or you can acknowledge it and just skip to next day when they return after buying it but the end result is still the same except providing some shitposting material for your group.

Basically, if a player realizes they forgot their car keys that were on the table while they aren't in any hurry and the entire situation can be resolved by them walking back into the house, picking them up then leaving, then just retcon it or skip forward until they're back infront of the car.
But if a player realizes they forgot their car keys while being chased by a Jason or something where getting them now is difficult and provides tension then make them suffer from their mistake.

>>96149279 (OP)
>>Checking with everyone and asking "is there something we are missing"
>>"no? ok then I guess we are ok"
>actually you need a crowbar
If theres at least one competent PC in the party why wouldnt you have mentioned that they need one when they specifically asked if they would need anything? I get the whole "so who has the torch" angle, but it seems like you had the opportunity to avoid this one

>>96149279 (OP)
Id let them get creative. Depending on the setting they might have magic or some gadget that does the trick. Finding a different way into the sewers is also possible. Maybe there's a character with above normal strength. Maybe they can jury-rig some items to use for leverage. It's also pretty hilarious to come to the manhole cover carrying all the stuff you prepared, and no one has the crowbar. Make it a funny roleplay moment.

Jesus, there are countless ways around this. Cant any of you improvise?

>>96149279 (OP)
Unless your party is severely unoptimized it feels sort of shitty to pretend Hercules the Manslayer has enough Strength to grapple a dire wolf with a +4 modifier, but simply can't improvise a way to leverage the manhole. Or perhaps your rogue improvises a few tools to do the same thing on a skill check. Realistically, if you as a DM are gatekeeping narrative momentum behind something asinine like needing a crowbar, it better be some sort of ridiculously proprietary piece of masterwork arch bullshit that this city specifically commissioned to make their sewers nigh impregnable, or you're kind of being a fuckwit with no imagination

>>96149279 (OP)
Manhole cover in pre-industrial era is glaring anachronism.

>>96149279 (OP)
I just have the player with the highest survival stat roll a skill check for seeing if they made a last minute purchase, though them failing the check and the party having to solve the problem with their current gear and abilities is fun too.

>>96149279 (OP)
>In situations like these should the dm play along with the players and hand them the item they need or is it on the players for forgetting and for them to deal with?
In the way that's fun. Sometimes it makes sense for the game that you'll tell the players "yeah sure, let's say you bought a crowbar." Because it doesn't matter and making them go get one would just amount to tedium interrupting the game for no purpose, because all that's going to happen is your players say "fine we walk the hour back to Home Depot, buy a crowbar, then walk an hour back to the manhole cover."

Other times it may be thematically appropriate that they've got only the limited resources they specifically stated that they brought. For instance maybe they're being chased and you want to make them feel a sense of urgency and panic and have to think of something else like scaling a storm drain to take the chase across the rooftops.

Just use your judgement and do what feels right.

>>96149279 (OP)
Since this is in a city, there should be a tool shop in the vicinity. Add 1 hour to their timer and they have a crowbar. Alternatively, one of them can try to lift the cover without tools, possibly becoming lightly exhausted.

>>96149279 (OP)
When players forget to bring something along, I think it's a positive to make the players have to get creative to come up with a solution.
On the other hand, what you're describing is more specific than that. When exploring the sewers is the whole point of the session, then there's no point putting an obstacle in front of them even getting into the dungeon you prepped. In that specific context, that's just wasting everyone's time.
Just handwave it and start with them in the sewers. They don't have a crowbar, and they might need it later on, but now they're in the dungeon and actually playing, not stuck at the prologue.

>>96149903
Unless they work for the DPW or are a tweaker pretty much nobody has ever thought about how you go about removing a manhole cover.

Characters in movies don't need to, they just lift them up. In this sort of scenario you can't expect the players to be unable to as well.

>>96149279 (OP)
Depends on the system.
In rules-lite games, it's assumed that everyone has the tools needed to use their skills. If there's a dungeon-delving skill, then it's assumed that PCs with the skill will have a crowbar, or get a roll to remember to bring a crowbar if the player forgot.
In a crunchier system where there are actual rules and gear lists layed out for all the stuff you're expected to buy, and shopping and prepping is half the fun, then there should be no compromises. If the PCs forgot to bring a crowbar, then they're going to have to improvise.
I tend to run games in the middle ground. If a player forgot a crowbar, then he'll get a roll against a sewer-diving skill to remember to get one. If that fails, I often give players a Fate point metacurrency that they can spend for situations just like this. If they're out of that too, then they'll just have to do without.

>>96149279 (OP)
>I run my games like point-n-click adventure
Spotted a vidyatard

>>96149279 (OP)
I mean you don't NEED a crowbar specifically. Any sort of sturdy iron bar should do the trick, and if you have magic or exceptional abilities I'm sure you could find a way around it.

If your dm is saying "nope you need this one specific item to get past this point and there is nothing you can do" then yeah hes an idiot but if you're expecting the dm to just let you pull the exact thing you need out of your ass anytime run into an obstacle then you are the idiot.

What kind of setting was this in anyways?

>>96149279 (OP)
>In situations like these should the dm play along with the players and hand them the item they need or is it on the players for forgetting and for them to deal with?
yes
of course
who the fuck stops everything to go get some mundane shit? How is that fun? Why are you doing this if not to have fun?

You could do a small beat about the characters staring at the manhole waiting for each other to open it or something, but a minute tops. Otherwise it's trying to make the game worse for no reasson.

>>96149561
>see players missinterpreting the information
>for weeks
>session after session you add new NPCs to repeat the information they are clearly not getting
>punish them
>never inform them ooc that you are all wasting everones time for no reasson
>mock them for not getting something you knew they weren't getting and did nothing to rectify for weeks

Fucking retard GM, I hope you were like 14

>>96149302
This. Does it add anything to your game when the players have to waste 5 minutes explaining how they drive back buy a crowbar and return? No? Why bring it up? They just have it, whatever.

>>96149279 (OP)
It's usually rope, or absence thereof, I've seen several characters die because they stubbornly insisted on to free climbing or unsecured leaps of faith.

>>96149279 (OP)
your players are fags
in my group even when we started last year and we ALL were new to ttrpgs (we started with 5e) there'd always be at least 2 party members with crowbars, and many other items were covered too while also making enough sense that we'd be able to carry them (DM did handwave encumbrance to some level: we still had situations where we couldn't pick as much as we wanted, or had to make multiple trips, but not much on the way of calculations).

>>96149279 (OP)
Christ I feel sorry for people playing bad systems

OH NO IF I GIVE MY PLAYERS A CROWBAR WILL THAT BREAK THE GAME??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

>>96149279 (OP)
What's with this tendency to set up a game as a sort of adversarial contest between players and GM?

Forgetting a crowbar could have been a fun humorous incident, but if the players aren't biting, just roll with it. The point of a game is to have fun. People keep forgetting that.

>>96156047
It's cheating.

>>96149279 (OP)
>All this retarded bullshit only an ultra-new GM would ever do
Are you by chance obsessive jRPG player? Or hidden object games?

>>96157122
... ok?
Re-read the question you were asked, since you clearly didn't the first time around

>>96156756
Nah, that's just standard vidya faggotry
>You need [insert whatever] to move forward
>There is the only way to move forward
>You can't do anything else, you must follow the pre-defined solution and carry a pre-defined item
>Only that item can advance you
It's like baby's first retarded scenario, and it's such a fucking common thing with (genuinely) new GMs, it's pretty much a staple. After all, their only point of reference is vidya, and they just re-apply that logic, without asking themselves "ok, what if player do something else?". This is, ironically, also the source of the whole realismfaggotry of newfags: it's EASIER to enforce their binary pass/stay game advancement and tie it with a very specific, well-defined object in the inventory to progress., especially when you are a clueless newfag. And it takes bunch of failures to learn how retarded that is in the long run

>>96157250
No, it's caused by bad systems. If you don't use systems that build in the assumption that have to track every atom, you don't have these dumbass problems.

>>96149322
>He said he liked to make us think about challenges

Sounds like the a mismatch of interests. I personally would be playing for the experience you guys create together and the story. I don't want to be punished and mocked just because some challenges were forgotten.

What challenge is there to knowing you need a crowbar and you forgot? All you get is punished for forgetting about it by adding more time to the campaign to say you went and got a crowbar.

>>96157122
Which competitor are they gaining an advantage against?

>throwing resource management out of the window so that it won't impede >muh narrative flow
at this point you might as well drop the pretense and ditch the whole rulebook

>he assumes games have to have resource management
oof.

>>96157279
The GM.

>>96157400
Not a competitor.

>>96157411
Clearly that GM thinks otherwise.

>>96157418
And he's wrong.

>>96157427
Well of course he's wrong but he's not alone. Too many GMs are GMs precisely so they can be dicks without any consequences.

>>96157442
Why did you lie and say it's cheating if you don't actually think it's cheating?

>>96157457
It's not a lie if the GM believes it and clearly that one does.

>>96157472
Wrong. I didn't ask you what the GM believes, and a lie is a lie regardless of belief. You didn't say "That GM think it's cheating", you said
"it's cheating". ANSWER MY QUESTION.

>>96157354
>did you forget an item and need to spend time describing how you go buy it
is not resource management

>>96157091
no it isn't you fucking RETARD

>>96157611
>I don't try to have fun with my hobbies
that's just sad dude

>>96157616
KYS NIGGER

>>96157618
why? I'm busy having fun

>>96157601
>forget an item (resource)
>go buy it (management)

>>96157850
resource management is the proper use of resources, making choices like taking the risky road or not having enough food.
Finding out there was another resource isn't part of the game, it's just a poor explanation.

>>96157906
Considering the resources required for your intended course of action is the essence of resource management. Such as, for example, considering whether you have the food to take the safe road, or whether you need to rush down the risky road to prevent starvation. Or, asking yourself "Is there anything else I'll need to carry out my plan of infiltrating the sewers?"

Why should hunger be simulated in a game?

>>96157942
covering your tools is more of a heist type of game. Resource management starts when you have the resources to manage. If you weren't informed that backpacks weren't part of the package only after you leave that's screwing with players because they were operating with faulty information.

>>96157948
so you have to make choices you wouldn't think about in another type of game.
Most one shots don't consider hunger because it all happens in a limited time frame.

Moron.

>>96157972
This is clearly a game where these things are being tracked, or the DM wouldn't have been able to ask "did you guys bring a crowbar" and the players wouldn't have been able to say "no." Furthermore, they "spent all last session preparing and shopping for supplies " so clearly planning out the necessary equipment for a mission is part of the intended gameplay.

>>96158033
Yes, the point is that the intended gameplay is incorrect. The DM should make different design decisions. Try to keep up.

>>96158040
Well the players shouldn't have fucking agreed to play the system then

>>96158173
Wrong.

>>96158190
>hey do you want to play this resource management game, in a system designed around resource micromanagement
>yes
>ok you didn't manage your resources effectively so you will have to speak the sentence "my character goes to buy a crowbar and comes back" out loud.
>REEEEEEEEE

lol seething

>>96158033
not clear
It could be, it could had been a whim of the moment. We know they didn't get a crowbar and OP later said it meant fucking around and then buying one the next session. That's a dumb punishment for a nothing problem and it sounds more like the GM was making time to avoid something he hadn't prepared more than a mechanical challenge.

If the players couldn't at all get one and had to improvise a solution with what they had, that wouldn't be resource management either, it'd be creative use of tools. Which can also be fun. But it wasn't what happened.

>>96158263
> in a system designed around resource micromanagement
It wasn't. OP already expanded on the results of that limitation, which was spending irl time.

In a resource management game the game is managing resources, not finding out what the resources are.

>>96149302
>narrative reason
There's more to the game than the narrative. Creative solutions to simple problems can be more fun than whatever story happens after you pick up the manhole

>>96159173
creative solutions are the narrative

I cast fireball on the manhole cover. Fuck your crowbar bitch

>>96159173
Absolutely, but it didn't sound like the players were into it.

If it was me GMing, I'd probably make them find some local to borrow it from...unless they really didn't want to.

>>96157948
That question offends me.

I feel like people are hung up on the crowbar question and not this shit:
>We went to the manhole at night to avoid being seen so we would have needed to wait til morning to buy a crowbar during which our window would have passed and we would have to play through an entire week before we got our chance again.

Okay, so you forgot it, and apparently there is absolutely no way for you to find either a crowbar or something that would have substituted. But this somehow means (if I'm understanding this correctly) the rest of the session is fucked? You can only quest "on the weekends?" What does that even mean?

>>96157948
so that somebody in the party needs to waste a spell slot on Goodberry

>>96149279 (OP)
Getting a crowbar in that situation would only cost them time.
If you aren't tracking time you cannot have a meaningful campaign, so just let them have one and be done with it.

>>96157279
The manhole. Why have any obstacles at all if they can all be handwaved away? Why roll to hit or roll for damage if you can just arbitrarily decide to kill the monster? It's not a game at that point.

>>96159879
Op here

In the game we were college students and had to attend classes during the weekdays. one of the sessions between learning of the waterways and going there he gave us college assignements which we had to complete,so we spent an entire session balancing making the preparations we could while working on those assignements. Our dm alluded to the fact that missing one day could have consequenses which made all the other players extremely hesistant to carry out missions during the weekdays as it could mean missing classes. I don't remember which day on the weekend we decided to go out for but I remember that we got there about halfway into the session and that I had a real fear that if we went back and did the proper preparations we would have to wait until the next session before we could partake in the sewer crawl. Because he threw in random events which would mess with our plans and would make us roleplay going to class and eating breakfast there almost everyday.

I dont track inventory in my games and its never been a problem

>>96157263
Cute litte theory, except I saw newfag GMs doing this in systems like Fate, Genesys, Broken Compass or Wushu. You know, games that barely even register such things like equipment.
1/10, work on your bait

>>96161670
Nigga, it's gonna be rough, but someone needs to tell you finally:
You're retarded.
Bona fide moronic.

>>96157948
If you're roleplaying out a survival situation, woking through the stresses of it could be very interesting.

>>96161670
in the end to be fair our dm let us subsitute the crowbar with a tool that came with the car my character bought (I played a rich asshole who could afford to make such purchases whenever)

This was after we contemplated using our weapons as a substitute, upon learning that he would roll against breakage we decided against that, the car tool also had to make breakage rolls but was more disposable. we popped it open and since we didn't specify that we took a way down to the waterways he rolled to see if it was waterways or sewers. (he rolled sewers) and when we opened it we had to make immediate health rolls against the sewer stench. we decided fuck it since and went down because we knew from the map we had that there was a connection point that led us to where we needed to go. We brave a few health rolls each only to be met with a boarded up connection door that we can't open because no crowbar. we go back braving even more health rolls. we instead take a manhole to the waterways once again risking the tool. and then we could start our waterway crawl.

So it worked out by way of us smashing ourselves against the problem until we got through it. But the idea of getting there after all that time and getting cock blocked by every step of the way was what I found frustrating

>>96161849
>we popped it open and since we didn't specify that we took a way down to the waterways he rolled to see if it was waterways or sewers.

This sounds like a shitty GM.

What system is this?

>>96161922
None, for none of it ever happened

>>96161922
gurps 4e

and again to be fair our dm did make npcs mention that we should go to the waterways specifically and we said we were going to the sewers. i thought they were interchangable which you can blame on me being retarded and esl. although it seemed like most of the other players were in my boat. (yes all the players were esl and we played in english)

>>96161990
>A gurps GM fill their game with mindless busywork and constantly cockblocks the players from doing anything.

Checks out.

>>96161990
>GURPS
>Using gear
>For anything
Yeah, this story is getting dumber with every detail you fabricate for it, OP

>>96149279 (OP)
If it's a game that tracks equipment and items, then part of the game is deciding which equipment and items to bring. Sometimes people forget things or make bad choices. Figuring out how to deal with the consequences of that is as legitimate a part of the game as fighting bad guys is. Overcoming adversity is fun.