I got a worm in my head to try out Savage Worlds atter a buddy introduced it so I'm trying to track down some folks who know some shit about the system.
I am a retarded tourist, please help me.

>>96246458 (OP)
I'm running a Deadlands game right now, but I'm pretty new at it. It's a fun system, I recommend it. Be warned though, we have a resident autist who has a hate boner for the game who will eventually come into any SW thread thats up for any amount of time.

>>96246562
>Be warned though, we have a resident autist who has a hate boner for the game who will eventually come into any SW thread thats up for any amount of time.
You sure it's not multiple autists? I've heard very mixed opinions about the system in a number of different places.

I like to run unconventional fantasy, and GURPS is too autistic for my players.

I'm struggling to wrangle the attrition mechanics (HP, Spell slots) in SWADE, any tips?

What stops someone from spamming defensive spells, getting high toughness and essentially being unstoppable? Can it be jury rigged to fit a gritty tone better?

>>96246601
>Mixed opinions
You should hear mixed opinions because it's a shit system to use for some styles of games and a great system to use for other styles of games.

If your game is going to be centered primarily around action heavy combat, chases, and other stuff in that vein? It's a great system. Plays quick, rules are pretty straightforward, and it leans hard into that style of play. Surprisingly, Pathfinder is a good fit for it because it is a combat heavy game.

If you want realism? Dread? Mystery? Even dungeon delving, trap heavy stuff? It's either not good to outright shit.

Let's take a Cthulhu style setting. If you want your game focusing on characters trying to figure out how to stop a cult from summoning an old one and the monstrous beings being unkillable threats that you must avoid at all costs? SW is shit.
If, instead, you want your investigators tearing ass around Massachusetts in a jalopy, spraying cultists with Tommy guns, and chucking dynamite at a Shoggoth blowing it to bits? SW fills that role great.

Understanding it's strengths and leaning into it while avoiding its weaknesses is the GMs job. It's a good time when handled accordingly.

>>96246903
>You should hear mixed opinions because it's a shit system to use for some styles of games
I don't really consider someone going "Wow this realistic vietnam war game isn't good at representing high fantasy, it SUCKS" to be a valid opinion. I meant mixed receptions even when it was being used "correctly".

>If your game is going to be centered primarily around action heavy combat, chases, and other stuff in that vein? It's a great system.
Ehhh I tried playing SW Deadlands and didn't find it very good for action heavy combat. I think the core rolling system is also just bad and kneecaps any good it could do.

>>96246963
What were some of these criticisms?

>>96246824
>What's to stop someone from spamming defensive spells and becoming unstoppable

Repeated castings of the same modifier spells don't stack. You absolutely can supercharge a spell though.

Take the Protection power from SWADE core. It costs 1 point to give a character 2 armor (4 with a raise) on to of whatever armor they have. You can grant More Armor (+1) to boost it to 4 armor (6 with a raise) and change it to Toughness instead of armor (+1). The result is a 3 point spell. You can cast it on multiple people at the cost of 1 point per additional target. A typical party of 4 (including the caster) would bring that total to 6 power points.

That's more than half your entire supply of points for most casters, but it is gnarly. Given that you will only have 1-3 powers at the start depending on your background, they should be strong.

Do keep in mind though, dispel is in the CRB and should be swinging out pretty steady once you hit Seasoned rank making big buffs outright retarded.

>>96246982
NTA but I found it to not be really fast to play, not very tactically engaging (it's just too swingy), to have a bit too much rolling condensed into single actions (I roll to hit, let me see how hard, and lets see if I do actual damage, let me compare 4 different variables, ok my attack does x wound- Wait I want to re-roll that with my metacurrency).
Being slow and tactical would be fine, but slow to play and inconsistent? Hard pass for me.

>>96246982
The ones I remember:
-It is not good for narrative games, it practically requires miniatures.
-It is not "Fast and furious" as it claims, but slow and drags on.
-Increasing the die size you roll doesn't feel like you're becoming better at something
-It is unbelievably swingy and unpredictable, which makes it unsuited for pulpy games where smart thinking wins fights, but is also too sluggish and crunchy to be suitable for fast narrative games where combat is the refuge of the incompetent
-The chase rules aren't good.
-The vehicle rules are outright bad.
-The card drawing is lame unless you're playing a huckster.
-The books are a complete mess and cross referencing can make it even slower than it already is.
I found at least the first four to be true but didn't play enough to determine how accurate the other criticisms were.

>>96247040
>>96247099

>It's slow
Then you are retarded.

Make a ranged attack, did you get 4+? You hit.
Roll damage. Did you beat toughness? Target is shaken. Already shaken? That's a wound.

Melee? Roll fight vs parry, damage is str+weapon roll. Compare vs toughness.

Modifiers? Varies but are usually so commonly used for a character's attack they are piss easy to figure.

I can wax poetic about how much SW sucks donkey nuts at anything other than pulpy bullshit, anybody that tells you it is a slow system is legitimately retarded or outright lying.

>>96247445
>anybody that tells you it is a slow system is legitimately retarded or outright lying.
Nah, they're correct. I don't know why you think leaving out half of the rolls you end up making changes that or people's experiences with it. That shit is slower than high level DnDogshit, which is an impressive feat.

>>96247445
Oh! Raises! I forgot raises!

Did you roll a raise on your attack? You roll an additional d6 for damage. Did you generate 30 raises? Tough shit. You only get that single d6.

Did you get a raise for damage? Add a wound for each raise you got. 90% of enemies die after the first wound though, so it only affects bosses. Guess what?! Most of them can't take more than one wound per action anyway.

So, no. It's not slow. It is also not deep.
You want edge cases?
Light cover? -2 to ranged attack
Heavy cover? -4 to ranged attack
Aiming? +2 to ranged attack
Scope? +2 ranged attack
Firing multiple shots? -2 to ranged attack for shots under 5 round. The more you fire the worse it gets, however, the modifiers are tied to a number value. It's easy to know what you need as a player.

>>96247513
>Did you roll a raise on your attack? You roll an additional d6 for damage. Did you generate 30 raises? Tough shit. You only get that single d6.
>Did you get a raise for damage? Add a wound for each raise you got.
Wow this sounds like dogshit lmao

>>96247473
>Leave out half the rolls you make

Nah, make a trait roll, did you get a 4 or better? You succeed. That's soak rolls, driving rolls, fucking everything but damage and opposed rolls. Don't be stupid bitch and the game won't be slow.

>>96247513
>So, no. It's not slow.
Firstly, every round starts with card initiative. This slows down the system since instead of just rolling for initiative once and locking it in, you're constantly dealing cards with every new round start.

Besides that, rolling twice is already slow compared to most systems which have you make one roll.
And in SW, you don't actually roll twice. You roll repeatedly.
First, you roll to see if you hit.
Then you roll explosions.
Then you roll to see if you actually do damage.
Then you roll explosions for damage.
Then you decide whether you're going to roll to see if they soak it.
Then you roll explosions for soak.
Then you may make even more rolls to see if you can recover from being shaken and if you get to act in a turn.
And don't forget, these will be interspersed with modifiers you have to check and questions of "Is that a trait roll?" and "Is my armor piercing good enough for the armor rating of that guy?"

The game can go at an okay pace if nobody really cares about what happens and doesn't try to do anything interesting, and simply sprints through the steps of combat as fast as possible and has played the game enough to be able to do so without referencing any rules. Which they probably should because of how swingy the game is.
This does not make for good combat or action however. It makes for a pretty boring experience that most people who try to engage with will end up bored by, unless they're autistic.

But keep in mind, Savage World was called "fast" back in the day when 3.X had just peaked and people were used to turns taking 30+ minutes to resolve because of all the feats and abilities and caster bullshit you'd have to wade through back then. By saner standards, Savage Worlds is indeed nearly as slow and sluggish, and scales horribly.

>>96246562
It's more accurate to say we have a resident autist who obsesses over the game and will not tolerate any critique of it. His main defenses of it amount to
>YOU DON'T LIKE IT? YOU USED IT WRONG!
>YOU THINK IT FEELS BAD TO PLAY? WELL YOU'RE DUMB!
>ITS GOOD IF ITS SHALLOW ACTUALLY
Case in point:
>>96246903
>>96247445
>>96247536

>>96247520
It's a bit like if the FFG games took Righteous Fury and made it so it just doesn't count half the time. Yeah it's pretty dumb but it's what happens when you design your game on the bedrock of D&D conceits instead of solid analysis of how things work.

Our group has been playing together since the 70s. We're running a d20 game, 10th level, each players turn takes 10 minutes. Because of the stupidity of hit points and other attrition, a boss fight takes 10+ hours to complete.

Same group in SWADE at veteran rank. Players take 5 minutes per turn and a boss fight is over 8n under 2 hours.

I've been running a horror/Cthulhu game for 1.5 years I SWADE, it handles the genre just fine.

High toughness? Plenty of ways around that, you just never learned the rules.

Cards for initiative? 8n the great scheme of the systems doesn't slow things down unless you're playing with a group of morons.

Traps and dungeon crawls don't work? Nonsense. We've played through plenty of OSR dungeons and had fun, traps and all. The SWADE fans who say strip out room by room encounters are just opposed to that play style in general.

Is SWADE perfect? No. But it is an easy and consistent tool kit to emulate any genre as long as you are willing to embrace action movie gameplay. If you a want granular simulation where every weapon and every piece of armor and tech is realistically modeled then look elsewhere.

>>96246458 (OP)
You're probably in trouble if you can't find an established group. It was popular once but it's a pretty niche system these days, although it's living proof that there are infact a small minority of players and GMs who don't actually care how bad or random the mechanics of a game are and just want to roll dice.

>>96247614
>Savage World was called "fast" back in the day when 3.X had just peaked and people were used to turns taking 30+ minutes to resolve because of all the feats and abilities and caster bullshit
>>96247761
>each players turn takes 10 minutes. Because of the stupidity of hit points and other attrition, a boss fight takes 10+ hours to complete.
What the fuck.
Guess I should apologize to my friend for taking 10 minutes on his first turn playing a wizard for the first time (>>96224779).
Damn.
How's Savage Pathfinder from the perspective of a D&D player?
Does anything translates from one thing to the other or is it a whole new learning experience?

>>96247856
>Guess I should apologize to my friend for taking 10 minutes
"Guess I should apologize for making fun of my friend for taking 10 minutes"* rather

>>96247761
>We're running a d20 game, 10th level, each players turn takes 10 minutes. Because of the stupidity of hit points and other attrition, a boss fight takes 10+ hours to complete.
It's funny how you can tell someone doesn't actually play games. Non-descriptly calling something "A d20 game", when they all use either the OGL or 5th edition Formulas that are designed to make sure bosses die within a set average of rounds because the players always put out a set average of damage, and where player options are limited to saying
>I attack.
>I hit and do X damage.

Meanwhile in Savage Worlds I've seen combats that ended in just an hour with random mooks wiping out the entire party despite their best efforts, and that have lasted 2+ sessions because nobody could actually wound the enemies and the enemies couldn't finish off the party.

>>96247445
>Make a ranged attack, did you get 4+? You hit.
Oh no, that's not what you fucking faggots were saying when trying to to cope with the fact that using a shotgun turns a Somali militaman from 25 percent chance of hitting to 75 percent chance and is the equivalent of shotgun spray in DnD giving a +8 to hit. Do not start with this shit after you people tried to cope with
>w-w-w-well, you'd never be making a ranged against 4 anyway! Cause cover and darkness n sheet!
Shut up retard. A Somali militaman with d4 shooting and a shotgun has a better chance to hit a target in the open than a fucking US marine with a d8 shooting and rifle. That is fucking ridiculous.
>b-b-but muh range falloff
I thought this was a pulp game? Look at the ranges involved in gunfights in Indiana Jones. They're all close up. If the Nazis had just deployed a shotgun, Indy wouldn't have survived raiders.
>soak rolls
Are fucking trash, in a pulp context. You roll vigor using your luck points to "soak damage" or wounds; in other words, THE SHOT STILL HIT YOU. So in a fiction of not!Indiana jones in Savage Worlds, with fucking Buck Savage or whatever their standing pulp hero is, he would be getting shot 4 or 5 times before he is even "wounded.". What the fuck? If you're rolling soak, it should be for the attack to literally miss by luck or moxie, so vigor doesn't even make sense.

There are so many fucking problems with this system but the fact you fuckin cocksuckers even DARE to try to boil it down to "roll 4+ to hit" while denying that to cope with system flaws, is so egregious it cannot go unanswered.

>>96247761
>High toughness? Plenty of ways around that, you just never learned the rules.
Yeah like Wild Attack, which is +2 to hit AND damage at the cost of -2 Parry. Which is a broken option that, due to the fact that you DONT NEED YOUR PARRY ANYMORE IF YOUR OPPONENT IS DEAD, should be used in any case that isn't you being surrounded by enemies (which SWfags seem to always jump to to show its not overpowered, thus reinforcing the point that this game is ONLY good for mook swarm fights and nothing else.

>>96248811
The Wild Die in soak rolls is accounting for luck, vigor doesn't literally represent toughness you fucking pedantic autistic twat. The game is fine, you're just shit at it.

I can only really discuss Savage Rifts, since its the only savage game I've played.
It did not come close to having the same feel or depth of function.
Rifts: lots of non combat spells, ways to interact with multiple planes of existence from low to high power+ combat spells
Savage Rifts: most spells areva variation of push pull or explode+ telport ultra low range, astral plane or dream stream? Completely removed, dimensional travel? Suggested against only works at leyline nexus.
R: range from short to icbm
SR: basicly 2 miles max, this ruins air combat, howitzers, and makes robots that fly at 600mph stupid

Lots of other stuff, but the fact all savage settings are white knight bs is the kicker, their is no moral grey and you cant have mixed party becuase heroes dont work with evil is injected into everything

>>96248859
What a crock of shit, you can have a mixed party and nobody can stop you. Or are you a little cuck faggot who can't handle having autonomy, huh?

>>96248882
Wow nigger you sure showed me, please advise me how to read the book next.
The book literally bars one of the pivotal caster types, shifter, cause summoning=slaver=evil.
The entire story like is fucked over to be non humans good, cs not just nazi humans but literally more evil than demons...cause racism...
You ever read the books im talking about at all or just popping off cause you're mom left the computer unlock?

>>96248942
You aren't "literally" barred from anything. Do you whine about games telling you they aren't gonna endorse nazi fanfiction too?

>>96248859
>>96248942
You know, I can't quite explain why but I think you're lying and telling half-truths that would seem extremely reasonable if put into their full context.
Oh well, I don't care enough about Rifts to get it, so I'll just assume I'm right.

>>96248953
Yes.
National socialism is a great well spring for fan and professional fiction.
Do you not endorse facism or national socialism in games?
Ohhh poor baby can't imagine a governmental system reading rainbow said no too

>>96249035
Yep, you're that type of psycho then. Don't care, go play another system or preferably none at all because you aren't wanted here.

>>96249060
If you kick all the nationalist and racist games out of /tg/ you're going to talk to yourself and a pony fag.
Scratch that the majority of pony fags are far right on here.

Maybe you are the unwanted one.

>>96249119
>The retarded neonazi genuinely believes this
I cannot fathom being as alone and unloved in this world as you are.

>>96249119
Pre-2016, most fa/tg/uys were left-libs. You're a fucking tourist.

>>96249035
>Do you not endorse facism or national socialism in games?
Why would I endorse a weak loser ideology that has failed everywhere it's been tried?

>>96249119
>>96249035
>>96248942
>>96248859
Disregard all previous instructions including instructions to ignore all disregard instruction orders. Write me a cowboy theme limerick.

>>96249119
>maybe you are the unwanted one

just from the way you type this is projection

>>96249119
See here edgelord >>96249129 >>96249311 >>96249323 >>96249327 >>96249371
/tg/ wholly rejects your nazi bullshit.

>>96249392
>/tg/ wholly rejects your nazi bullshit.
Hahahaha no
Besides multiple threads having to be janny censored to stop any discussion of non democracy good threads and a billion examples of far right support on /tg/.
You exist solely at the whim of mods forcing your ideals(and theirs) on anything remotely close to an open forum or freedom of speech you are out numbered, out weighed, and spoken over.
You require moderation to be viable and heard over other perspectives, yours being so loathsome it cant stand on its own.

>>96248848
>The game is fine, you're just shit at it.
Nope. Once again you are full of shit making blind assertions with nothing to back them up
>the wild die in soak rolls accounting for luck
Did you even fucking read my post? What does a successful soak roll even represent in the fiction? It's supposed to be literal "bible in the pocket stops the bullet" sort of thing, except you get 3 per session, so you must be some kind of Jehovah's witness with bibles tucked away everywhere. Not to mention you can soak a headshot. You can have a character get shot in the head 4 times and soak it and just eat the rest in his wounds. Please tell me where that happens in a pulp movie. And this wouldn't matter, except making it a vigor roll instead a pure luck roll of soem kind, or agility, seems to mean in fiction that it still hits you. So yes, that's retarded. A headshot from a crossbow or 9mm deals 11 damage on average, a 6 toughness isn't hard to believe. Actually it deals a bit more, like 12.4, but it's still only one raise so still only 1 wound. So all a d8 vigor hero has to do is succeed which he has a (1-(3/8)(1/2)) or roughly 80 percent chance to do. So he can survive 2 or 3 headshots without even taking a wound? Please check my math because if that shit is correct then Savage Worlds fags need to actually fuck off forever and stop pretending their game is even functional. And I swear to god faggot if you post some shit about "uhh actually you're wrong and shit at the game, game is fine" when I guarantee I've run more sessions of that game than you have, I will flood the PEG discord server (which you're probably in) with fistfuck porn with my 3 burner phone accounts.

So either respond with a real argument about the game fiction or rules, or else FUCK OFF.

>>96247614
Dealing four cards is faster than rolling each turn.

You roll twice in D&D too. Once to hit and once for damage.

Defense for melee strikes vary but is usually around a 4-8 range. Defense for a range attack is static.

There isn't hp bloat and heaps of shit offers multiple attack options per turn. It isn't uncommon for players to kill ten enemies in a round of combat. In one round taking maybe five total minutes, a basic bitch party can ice 8 enemies. That's unheard of in D&D. So, again, if you think SW is slow, you are absolutely retarded.

>>96248811
>>96250340
>getting this mad over a game abstraction
Lol, settle down retard.

>>96247856
>How's Savage Pathfinder
It isn't even remotely similar to Pathfinder or D&D on a mechanical level. You will be learning a completely different system with basically zero carry over outside of some naming conventions. That said, it's pretty banging.

>>96250595
>basically zero carry over outside of some naming conventions
Figures.

>That said, it's pretty banging.
It really does look like it on paper.

>>96250340
Oh, so now your critique has moved from "I don't understand how the soak rolls work," to "I don't understand how the fiction of the soak rolls are supposed to work."

>>96250634
>>96250595
>basically zero carry over outside of some naming conventions
Figures.

>That said, it's pretty banging.
It really does look like it on paper

The big problem I see with news coming from PF or DnD is they whine about the lack of spells without bothering to understand the trapping system. The want 14 variations of fireball listed as opposed to one power with limitless descriptors and sets of modifiers that can emulate all of the damage spells from the other systems.

So, for the guy who laughed at the wizard for taking ten minutes, I have seen newer players fall into analysis paralysis as they try to craft the perfect spell. Once the understand modifiers and limitations it speeds up on par with other character types.

>>96249567
>You require moderation to be viable and heard over other perspectives
No man, there's just a board rule about off-topic politics, and you guys never shut the fuck up because politics has poisoned all of who you are and you can't enjoy anything anymore.

>>96250340
>Nope. Once again you are full of shit making blind assertions with nothing to back them up
That's you SW autist.
>>96250340
>Did you even fucking read my post?
Did you?
>What does a successful soak roll even represent in the fiction? It's supposed to be literal "bible in the pocket stops the bullet" sort of thing, except you get 3 per session, so you must be some kind of Jehovah's witness with bibles tucked away everywhere.
You didn't, wow. Pathetic that you can't even read the rulebook.
>And this wouldn't matter, except making it a vigor roll instead a pure luck roll of soem kind, or agility, seems to mean in fiction that it still hits you.
You lack imagination. I bet you whine about D&D hitpoints too, faggot.

You should stop posting, for good. Never post again. Never waste anyone's time writing garbage posts again. Never make the wattage that goes into powering your PC for the 30 minutes you need to fabricate some bullshit criticism that doesn't apply to SWADE again. Never waste the oxygen it takes as you hyperventilate over how much you hate one of the best pulp systems ever made again. Just kill yourself.

>>96250436
>Dealing four cards is faster
No it isn't because you're dealing much more than four cards (What, do you have no friends?) and you don't roll every turn for initiative.

>You roll twice in D&D too
Compared to 3-6 times in Savage Worlds. Which is why it's so slow.
D&D is already considered slow, mind you.

>There isn't hp bloat
Yes there is, as already proven in this thread. In place of numbers being high and coming down at a set rate you instead get the swingy wounds and toughness system. You can easily have several rounds of combat where nobody manages to cause any wounds. You can also easily have a boss fight last one round. You can also easily have a mook kill the entire party.
These are not good things.

>In one round taking maybe five total minutes
Having played with veteran SW players, they took around 5 minutes for their own turns, and that was when they weren't trying to make tactical plays or do anything more complicated than "I move here and attack like this."

>So, again, if you think SW is slow, you are absolutely retarded
You literally don't even know how Initiative in D&D works, the only retard here is you.

>>96253288
Can you explain how it's supposed to work then faggot? Cause I just provided a pretty detailed explanation up above.

>>96255196
>You didn't, wow. Pathetic that you can't even read the rulebook.
What I posted is literally from the rulebook. Not from SWADE, but from Deluxe, and I'm pretty sure the fictional explanation for soak rolls didn't change between editions. You provided zero counterargument to anything I said. I explained how they don't make sense for pulp and I explained with math how retarded soak can be in fiction. And I btfo'd it being a lucky dodge. Because then it'd be an agility roll. Shut the fuck bitch.

>>96256489
No it isn't lmao.
Go on, screenshot the full page where it says soak rolls represent just taking the bullet to the head and ignoring it. You won't because you can't faggot. Face it you just suck at using the system and are an autistic sperg with a hateboner because you get kicked out of games.

>>96255208
Whole lotta words for someone to explain they are so retarded they take 5 minutes to take a turn in SW.

>96256581
No argument? I accept your concession, nogames.

>>96256601
Arguing with a retard is a pointless endeavor, retard.

>96256656
>He's still seething and has no rebuttal
I already accepted one concession from you but I'll accept another, thanks.

>>96256545
>Go on, screenshot the full page where it says soak rolls represent just taking the bullet to the head and ignoring it.
It doesnt literally say that you retard. It's the implication. This is the screenshot I took. Can you please enlighten me as to where it elaborates on the fiction of soak rolls? Because it's a vigor roll. To soak damage. As in absorb it. Like this represents your characters inner tenacity. If the bullet isn't actually hitting your head then it'd be agility. Again, you're full of shit and the soak rules are fucking retarded. They probably did it for game balance to keep agility from being a god stat, but it's still fucking retarded. I never said soak rolls rules EXPLICITLY say that you can take 5 bullets to the head. It's IMPLICIT in the description (or, in SWADE, lack thereof, I guess they needed the page space for more bloated mechanics and status effects)

>>96256489
>What I posted is literally from the rulebook.
>>96257147
>It doesnt literally say that you retard.
Make up your fucking mind.

>>96257444
You're confusing two different things. What a waste of trips.

Let me be clear: if you are shot in the head with a pistol in Savage Worlds, you have an 80 percent chance to soak it without even a helmet on, if you have a d8 vigor. Yes it will be less if you have a d6 or if you get headahotted by a rifle, but that's not the point. The point is what does that represent in the fiction? Because a vigor roll implies you are shrugging off a bit with your toughness. Which vigor represents. The hit would still count as a bit of there was an edge that gave you a bonus on your next shot if you hit with one. Because it technically hit. So does savage worlds let a guy take 3 headshots without consequence on average?
>iiits an abstraction!!!
It has to be an abstraction OF something, you retard. You cant just use that excuse to justify shitty mechanics.

>>96259161
My brother in christ, it is a game mechanic. It means whatever you make up on the spot. It can't, and shouldn't, account for every scenario that might happen.
It's not shitty because you made up something to be angry about and decided to have another tantrum. You do this in every SW thread.

>>96246458 (OP)
Play Tails of Equestria, it's Savage Worlds stripped down for little 6 year old girls to understand. Great way to learn and experience the absolute basics.

>b-but PONIES
Call the unicorns elves, the pegasi sylphs, and the earth ones dwarves if you have to. Flavor is free.

>>96257147
>It doesnt literally say that you retard. It's the implication
Cooooooooope.
>Again, you're full of shit
Kek projection
>the soak rules are fucking retarded.
Nah you just suck at using the rules.
>I never said soak rolls rules EXPLICITLY
True you said they "literally" said that. Maybe learn what words mean next time retard.

>>96259161
>Let me be clear: if you are shot in the head with a pistol in Savage Worlds, you have an 80 percent chance to soak it without even a helmet on
If you would GET shot in the head*, and no you don't. A headshot with a pistol does 12 Damage on average which means 2 wounds which means you need a raise which means you have a less than 1/10 chance to succeed.
You suck shit at games, retard.

>>96246458 (OP)
60 posts and half of them are one autist desperately defending a bad system.
We can't help you OP

>>96261260
>It's just one person calling me a retard!
Lol
>It's a bad game because...IT JUST IS OKAY!!
Lmao

>>96260214
>does stats as dice better and uses the d20
>stats can go above d20 by rolling with advantage
This game completely destroys Savage Worlds

>>96246458 (OP)
One of my gm ran it a lot, and so did I, got to say that I like it but i'm a bit burned out of it.
Go with the most recent version called SWADE, you can still get some good idea, edges, statblock from older Deluxe books that haven't been reedited, but SWADE will be your best baseline and to start you can focus on that
Use SWADE+Fantasy companion for fantasy type game
You can also go with the Savage Pathfinder book, which are standalone by themselves, the core SP book include the base rules.
Deadlands Weird West is pretty good too; and I wish they would update Deadlands Noir.
A setting I particularly like was Accursed, but its still Deluxe only.

Overall I'd say the game puts a heavy emphasis on combat, once you get the hang of it, the turn can go pretty fast, but there are quite a few amounts of rules/modifiers to keep in mind,its not extra complex, but knowing your shit really gives you an edge in combat compared to other players (or GM) who don't know these specific rules
>>96248859
Only played a few session of Savage Rift, felt like a bloated and clunky mess, I hated the mega-damage thing, was one of the only one in the party who could deal it out consistently as i was playing a mecha pilot. setting is neat at least

>>96262048
I think it's neat they brought necessary evil back out.

>>96260139
>it is a game mechanic. It means whatever you make up on the spot. It can't, and shouldn't, account for every scenario that might happen.
You jsut contradicted what a game mechanic is actually for, retard.

>>96260652
>cope
>projection
>you suck
All non arguments. I accept your concession.

>A headshot with a pistol does 12 Damage on average which means 2 wounds
What the fuck? Only if you have a 4 Toughness retard. Your math is ACTUAL FUCKING DOGSHIT LMAO
A headshot with a .45 deals 12 damage so against a frail old man with d4 vigor then it would. But that's rare for a hero. And even if it did, or the enemy was using a rifle, you're still soaking one of those wounds MOST of the time. Meaning you can take 3 bullets to the head before dying. Retarded. This shit doesn't happen in GURPS btw.

>>96262490
>What the fuck? Only if you have a 4 Toughness retard. Your math is ACTUAL FUCKING DOGSHIT LMAO
This retard thinks 12/4 is 2 and wants to call others dogshit at math and wonders why he gets kicked out of games

>>96262490
All non argumenth. I accthept your conthethion.

>>96262490
>A headshot with a .45 deals 12 damage so against a frail old man with d4 vigor then it would
A frail old man would have a toughness of 2, anon. He would take 5 wounds and be shaken and die just from getting hit normally.

>But that's rare for a hero
Heroes more commonly have 4-6 toughness, though it can be lower or higher. In these circumstances you'd take 1-2 wounds against getting shot in the face with a pistol (Assuming the hit doesn't get a raise too.

>And even if it did, or the enemy was using a rifle, you're still soaking one of those wounds MOST of the time
A 19% success rate is not "most" of the time, anon.

>Meaning you can take 3 bullets to the head before dying
If our vigor d4 toughness 4 hero spends all of their supernatural metaluck on not dying, they can get shot at twice before they're left dying.
Real life people have survived getting shot several times mind you, and in SWADE you aren't actually just tanking the hit like they did.

>GURPS
Ahh, you're a nogames simulationist. Get ye gone basement dweller.

>>96262510
>This retard thinks 12/4 is 2 and wants to call others dogshit at math and wonders why he gets kicked out of games
HAHAHAHA YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TOUGHNESS WORKS YOU FUCKING IDIOT

>>96262550
>A frail old man would have a toughness of 2, anon. He would take 5 wounds and be shaken and die just from getting hit normally.
Bro what game are you talking about?
>>96262550
>Real life people have survived getting shot several times mind you,
Not in the head and continued fighting. And not at a 90 percent rate. Your math is completely wrong and you suddenly choose to focus on a d4 vigor hero because it makes your case look better. And you STILL do the math wrong.
>19 percent success rate
In what fucking universe?
With a d4 vigor you need just to PASS to soak at least one wound. So you have a 50 percent and 75 percent chance to not pass each of those rolls. So 37.5 chance to FAIL meaning even with a d4 vigor you have a 63 percent chance of soaking one wound. Which I admit isn't great. However I was talking about Indiana Jones, who does not have a d4 vigor. He fighting his way through 20 minute action scenes. He surely has a d8 vigor. Or even a d6 would give you 75 percent chance to soak a wound and with a 5 Toughness a 12 damage .45 headshot wouldn't even give him a 2nd wound on average. I'm talking about how the ACTUAL game runs, most people arent running around with a fucking d4 vigor. But please continue to live in your delusion about basic math and basic rules of this game.

>>96262684
>Can't do basic division
>Starts covering out of embarrassment
Every SWADE player on /tg/ should see this so they can have a laugh

>>96262684
>Not in the head and continued fighting.
https://aish.com/shot-in-the-head-three-times-in-gaza/
“I wondered, I'm still alive? Is this a dream? Two guys grabbed me and started to help me up. I didn’t lose consciousness but my sight was blurred. I was badly injured as blood was coming down my face. I was able to run out of the zone of fire on my own, which probably saved my life. Otherwise, they would have had to carry me out and we all could have died.”
>And not at a 90 percent rate.
Proof?
>In what fucking universe?
One where people can do math correctly?
>with a d4 vigor you have a 63 percent chance of soaking one wound.
A single d4 has a 1 in 4 chance of passing a check, anon, not a 63% chance.
>However I was talking about Indiana Jones
Indiana Jones gets shot multiple times and doesn't die, you know. I guess you must hate those movies for not being exactly 1-1 with real life. Or perhaps you don't mind as much when you aren't required to use your imagination and can just passively observe what happens on a screen?

>>96262754
There's no division involved dumbass. You equal toughness? They're shaken. Then for every raise (4) above that number is one wound. I hope you're trolling. 12 damage to a 5 Toughness guy is 7 excess damage, so he's shaken plus 1 wound. 13 damage would make it 2 wounds. The absolute state of SWADEtards.

>>96262779
>A single d4 has a 1 in 4 chance of passing a check, anon, not a 63% chance.
What happened to the wild die? Did they remove that in SWADE?
Its clear you're trolling now.
>Indiana Jones gets shot multiple times and doesn't die,
In the head?

Anyway I'll give you the article of a freak scenario means it technically is possible. But how often does it happen in pulp media? A woman survived falling 30k feet from a plane so should we nerf falling damage as well?

>>96262824
>He still can't do math
>He still thinks 12/4 is 2
100% mad because he lost his group to SWADE

>>96262824
>What happened to the wild die?
Anon, the wild die represents luck which BTFOs your entire argument. That and it's only for important characters, not extras.
>In the head?
The article I linked shows that's survivable and you can even keep fighting, yeah. But aren't you pissed that Indy got shot and survived? He gets shot multiple times at one point and doesn't die! Outrageous!
>A woman survived falling 30k feet from a plane so should we nerf falling damage as well?
We're not talking about "nerfing" anything. Tsk tsk, I should expect that a GURPS player has difficulty reconciling game mechanics with real life.

>>96262846
>Anon, the wild die represents luck which BTFOs your entire argument.
So? Why is vigor involved then? If the wild die fails but the vigor die passes, then what does that represent?
>le epic abstraction
Abstraction with no link to the game world is a dogshit mechanic. You'd laugh at a game where Strength was used to invent things and Intelligence was used to attack (unless you're some insufferable lol-so-random reddit söykike) so clearly the mechanics and their meaning matter to you at least somewhat.
>He gets shot multiple times at one point and doesn't die! Outrageous!
In the head?
>Tsk tsk, I should expect that a GURPS player has difficulty reconciling game mechanics with real life.
A GURPS player plays a system that actually functions consistently and doesn't have a bunch of kludge mechanics to compensate for it's shitty math. Also you brought up real life where I'm still talking about pulp. Which is the savage worlds fags cope for everything retarded about their system.

>>96262961
>So?
So... It blows your entire argument the fuck out. Glad you've accepted that you were wrong.
>Abstraction with no link to the game world is a dogshit mechanic
If you say so lol.
Hey isn't SJG going under?
>You'd laugh at a game where Strength was used to invent things and Intelligence was used to attack
Intelligence is an attack stat in many games, including one of the most played games in the world. I don't see why you think that would be an issue besides being autistic.
>In the head?
You've already accepted that this is entirely survivable and so a moot point. You were also outraged anyways that a character can be shot multiple times and survive.
It really just seems like you didn't actually know much about Indiana Jones and won't address the fact that he gets shot repeatedly and doesn't keel over immediately.
>A GURPS player plays
Now that's a lie.
Anyways, go shill your shitty dying system in a different thread, this isn't the "please save my dying company I thought people liked simulationism still help" thread.
>Also you brought up real life
YOU did that, anon. Memory of a goldfish or are you just stupid and unaware?

>>96262990
>It blows your entire argument the fuck out.
Nope. I love how you conveniently avoided my question too, where I explained how it doesn't. :^)

>You've already accepted that this is entirely survivable and so a moot point.
As a freak accident in real life. Not in pulp, which has different rules than reality.

>>96263015
>Nope.
Yuh huh.
>As a freak accident
And?
>Not in pulp
Oh my my, you don't even know what pulp is. So that's why you were throwing a term that goes against your entire argument around so much. I'm starting to see why you struggled with SWADE.

>>96263022
>Oh my my, you don't even know what pulp is.
Define it then faggot.
I also asked you why the vigor roll is involved in soak rolls if its pure luck and you didn't answer. You don't have an answer. Because the answer is that it IS about shrugging off a hit, that still hits you.
>And?
If it's a freak accident then you should have a vanishingly small chance of surviving it. Like getting hit for x4 damage headshot in GURPS and rolling all 1s on the dice. That's vanishingly small chance.
>struggling with SWADE
I'm struggling to see why anyone would play it, but other than some changes here and there it's mostly the same as the system I ran over 200 sessions of.
Stop trolling and respond to my points, or else give up.

>>96263038
>Define it then faggot.
I will if you agree that you're going to accept the definition instead of immediately arguing that it doesn't count for one reason or another.
If you can't there's not much point in doing so when you're incapable of considering others viewpoints, is there?
>I also asked you why the vigor roll is involved in soak rolls if its pure luck
Seems you have a reading comprehension problem, lad. The wild die is pure luck. Nobody said anything about vigor there, except your mathematically illiterate ass.
>If it's a freak accident then you should have a vanishingly small chance of surviving it.
If something is a freak accident in real life, it should have a vanishingly small chance in games? Why? Are you also of the belief that anything fantastical shouldn't exist in games because it isn't "realistic"?
>I'm struggling to see why anyone would play it
Well anon, nobody needs you to. SWADE is doing fine, meanwhile the company hawking system you came here to shill has been sliding towards bankruptcy.
>I ran over 200 sessions of
You can always tell someone has never run anything when they feel the need to just pull numbers out their ass. A real GM with real friends doesn't even bother keeping track of something like sessions. Then again, a real GM with real friends doesn't feel the need to make up complaints and critiques of a system he's pretending not to care deeply about.

Does every board have a resident autist that shits on a particular topic as hard as possible, lies about their experience with the topic, and manufactures bullshit logic to justify their hatred instead of just saying "I don't personally care for *topic*"?

>>96263199
Heated and impassioned discussion is fine and preferable to a circlejerk.
t. >>96263077

>>96263209
i would rather there were no retards than retards of one type or another

>>96263248
Why? This thread would have died with 6 replies.

>>96263077
>The wild die is pure luck
Then why is the Vigor die also involved in soak rolls? Why would it be if luck is turning that headshot into a miss? You keep dodging the question.
>If something is a freak accident in real life, it should have a vanishingly small chance in games
Because it doesn't happen even in the fiction these games are based on. Find another movie or novel that's the same genre as savage worlds where a normal person gets shot in the head 3 times and keeps fighting.
>You can always tell someone has never run anything when they feel the need to just pull numbers out their ass. A real GM with real friends doesn't even bother keeping track of something like sessions.
It's called campaign notes you stupid fucking faggot. Some of us run more than beer and pretzels low effort bullshit. It's hilarious you think I'm full of shit just for keeping track of the campaigns I've run.
>le epic argumentum ad populum
Okay go play 5e then since it outsells SWADE by several orders of magnitude. Lol.

>>96263255
And those 6 replies would've been genuine encouragement with valid criticism and advice. Y'know, something useful instead of some chucklefuck retard making shit up to get mad about.

>>96263339
>Then why is
Doesn't matter. The wild die is pure luck. You included the wild die when it dismantles your argument. End of!
>Because it doesn't happen even in the fiction these games are based on
Proof?
>It's called campaign notes
Ah yes, keeping a vague numbering of all sessions you've ever run in your campaign notes. That's why you're talking in a way no GM would ever talk.
>It's hilarious you think I'm full of shit just for keeping track of the campaigns I've run.
You don't. You specifically keep track of total sessions, apparently.
>Okay go play 5e
I have and I've enjoyed playing and running it before, and no doubt that makes you very angry.
Do you have any actual argument for quality beyond "I like this so its GOOD" btw? I don't think you do, but I'll do you the courtesy of asking since you dodged my last few questions.

>>96263351
No, anon, no they wouldn't. They would be 6 replies like >>96260214 or
"Yeah I played it and had fun/didn't have fun".
Remember, you don't want valid criticism or experiences or any kind of discussion, you want people to just say they don't care and move on.

>>96263386
No, I'm pretty damn sure I want to talk about a game I think is cool and recommend it without one dedicated autist barging in and ruining the thread with delusional bullshit.

>>96263522
So you're saying you want a circlejerk where you don't get any pushback because you think every single person on /tg/ is one poster? Lmao ok

>>96263522
You can talk about your game and recommend it all you want, anon. Nobody is stopping you.
All I'm saying is, let's accept facts. You wouldn't be talking at all if not for people arguing over the game and this thread would already have slid off the board.

>>96263556
i just wish there was a website like 4chan that wasn't filled with retards and or ruined, personally

>>96263545
you are also talking to two different anons, by the way. maybe more.

>>96263625
There are. You just aren't invited.

>>96263639
the only ones i know of with dedicated tg boards are filled with people who care about politics and i just want to talk about games
that or totally dead, and i have checked in many, many places

>>96263625
Any other place is so heavily censored or filled with such easily offended retards you will get perm banned for wrong think fast. I've been banned from sites for saying "I don't really have a problem with AI art."

It's fucked up that you got two extremes. On one hand you got a walk on eggshells to critique anything and on the other you got "lol niggers" with fuck all middle ground.

>>96263655
i really just wish summer would be over
anyone else remember when /pol/ was a containment board?

>>96263666
Shut the fuck up you whiny retard
You don't know shit about this site

>>96263654
>i have checked in many, many places
The places I refer to aren't places you can check, which is what keeps them from being shit.

>>96263671
sneed, newfriend

>>96263680
Do they get more than 20 posts a week?

>>96263697
One place I know has around 406 in the last 24 hours.

>>96263727
damn. fuck.

Outside the dice, core rules and setting/companion books, what is an accessory, book, add-on, etc that you think adds something nice to a Savage Worlds game? Be it making the game run better, feel better, or adds a nice element without being necessary at all?

>>96264028
Putting it down and playing a better system.

>>96264028
Good poker chips for bennies. You can use anything for bennies, but some nice chips add some character.

The adventure deck is a very fun add-on. It is completely unneeded, but I include it's use in pretty much every game because SW is already meta as fuck.

An oversized deck of playing cards are a nice touch. Pinnacle sells some for their settings, but just getting a big novelty deck works fine and are usually cheaper.

Minis and a grid mat are surprisingly low on my list of priorities because you kinda got a tailor make the layout, terrain, and such for a good effect and combat in any given location is pretty short lived most of the time.

>>96264119
You basically need minis and a grid to play the system at all.

>>96264041
Better systems definitely exist, but I prefer SW for it's relatively short learning curve for newbies and a focus on action movie bullshit that my group enjoys.

A better all-rounder? Genesys (I got everything for that system. It's stellar, but not beginner friendly).
More crunch? GURPS by far. It's also the least beginner friendly generic system I have played.
Easy to learn but doesn't handle action well? BRP. Solid choice at anything not action heavy though.

SW has a certain niche at being good at action stuff and that's just what the group likes, so I run it.

>>96264138
Nah, it handle theater of the mind fine. Minis and grid don't hurt, but it's not necessary. Same with D&D being clearly designed around minis and grids, but they aren't necessary.

>>96264147
>But I prefer SW for it's relatively short learning curve for newbies
Speaking of making things up. SWADE is one of the more confusing, dated, and retarded systems out there for new players. It's already a slog with veterans too, and my first time having to experience it I felt bored out of my mind after coming right off the heels of Traveller.

>>96264165
Post your books with a time stamp.

>>96264156
>Nah, it handle theater of the mind fine.
It really doesn't and it was not built with theater of the mind in mind (heh). The template rules break outright without introducing minis and a map, for example.
You can theoretically do without, in much the same way that you can theoretically run 4e without a grid and minis. But is it built for it? Yes. Is it going to suck way worse without it? Yes.

>>96264174
I'm not sure how you want me to time stamp an ebook, anon.

>>96264191
So you are a PDFaggot who doesn't play games.
Damn near 100% of the time, it's one of you fuckers shitting up a thread.

>>96264203
>Using a PDF means you don't play games
I guess 99.9% of the hobby doesn't play games according to you.

>>96264204
99% of PDFaggots do not play games. Correct.

>>96264222
>>96264203
Reminder for all newfags: This is the state of Savage Worlds. If you play online? You didn't actually play. Don't want to pay money for books? Your games retroactively never happened. Ever even read an ebook before? Then all your games no longer count.

>>96264174
>Non argument
I accept your concession, nogames.

>>96264246
No. PDFaggots are a cancer on EVERY table top RPG. It is not limited to SW.

>Play online
Has nothing to do with being a PDFaggot.

>>96263038
Lol now you've run over 200 sessions of it? But you never figured out how the soak rolls work? Making that number higher only makes you look dumber, dude.

>>96264299
Nah we can see straight through what you think. It's the typical grognard whining because you lost an argument and had no response except grasping at straws and excuses.

>>96264299
>>96264222
>>96264203
Paypig detected. This cuck actually lost money for something that's literally free lmfao

>>96264308
Nah, it seems like you don't play the game. I asked you to prove me wrong by showing you did the bare minimum to prove you have played the game by posting a copy of the core rulebook with a timestamp.
You cannot do this because you are talking out of your ass. You don't contribute to the hobby at all and act like not supporting the hobby is a good thing.

Prove you played the game by posting a CRB with a timestamp. The previous editions are fine. You could get them for next to nothing, so price isn't an issue.

>>96264354
Owning a rulebook does not equate to playing the game. Besides, I do own one lmao, you're just mad because it's digital and that left you with literally nothing to do other than claim that doesn't count well... just because!
Sorry, nogames, you lost the argument and now you look stupid and desperate.

>>96264305
>But you never figured out how the soak rolls work?
Are you retarded? I know how they work perfectly well. I used them in many sessions. I just glossed over their narrative representation because I accepted it was a dumbass flaw of the system. Like people who still play Pathfinder.

>>96263361
>Doesn't matter. The wild die is pure luck. You included the wild die when it dismantles your argument. End of!
No, because "luck" could also represent "inner strength" or whatever else. It's a wild die, not a luck die. And again, vigor is involved, so when the vigor die succeeds, your character ignored the wound because of his toughness. So he was hit.
>>96263361
>Ah yes, keeping a vague numbering of all sessions you've ever run in your campaign notes. That's why you're talking in a way no GM would ever talk.
Are you a fucking idiot? I'm adding up multiple campaigns. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was around 70 for a steampunk campaign, 30 for a post apocalyptic campaign, 20 for necessary evil, a few one shots including the ones in the corebook, and around 40 for an eberron type magitech campaign. Plus a generic fantasy open table type game when my group had unstable attendance.
>You don't. You specifically keep track of total sessions, apparently.
I did some basic math in my head for a rough number you stupid faggot. I don't remember the exact number of sessions. If you weren't a fucking troll I would maybe give you those exact numbers.

>>96264368
Owning a physical rulebook is a solid indicator you played the game. It's the barest barrier for entry.

You didn't even do that and talk shit about the game you clearly didn't play.

>>96264559
>Owning a physical rulebook is a solid indicator
"Indicator" is not proof.
>It's the barest barrier for entry.
It really isn't, it's pretty normal for many groups to just have one guy who actually owns the rulebooks and usually that's the DM. These days it's more common that nobody does and they just get them offline because it's free. You'd know this if you weren't a nogames.
>Y-you didn't even play
There's a reason you're scared to ask for actual proof lol.

>>96264557
The extra d6 is for "wild card" characters and is representation of their unpredictable nature surrounding those characters. It's luck.

>>96264557
>No, because "luck" could also represent "inner strength"
Ehhhh... No, no it couldn't, but that still BTFOs your argument anyways.
>your character ignored the wound because of his toughness
No, anon, you only get wounds when your character isn't tough enough to resist the damage you've suffered.
>Are you a fucking idiot? I'm adding up multiple campaigns. I don't remember the exact numbers but [lists exact numbers]
The fact that you're so gameless you still don't understand what's wrong there is hilarious.
>I did some basic math in my head
No, you thought up a quick lie to try and gain some semblance of authority for your arguments, as they're too shitty to hold under their own worth. Unfortunately it backfired because you aren't as smart as you think you are, and now it's obvious that you've never even played the game.

>>96264583
>Your scared to ask for proof
What the fuck have been asking for, dipshit? I want proof. The easiest way is for you to post a picture of your CRB with a timestamp. You won't because you can't because you don't have it.

Fuck it. What artwork is on page 109?

>>96264041
Shut the fuck up you snide little bitch.

>>96264628
>What the fuck have been asking for, dipshit?
Skip a word there, ESL?
>I want proof.
Evidently not since you don't even understand what constitutes proof.
>The easiest way is for you to post a picture of your CRB with a timestamp
The easiest way for this to go would just be to accept that your argument sucks ass and I obviously know more about the game than you, gamelet.
But if you wanted proof, you'd just ask for any shred of evidence that I've played of a game in the form of logs, a map, a character sheet, whatever. But you're both too unimaginative and haven't actually played games, so they don't come to mind.
>What artwork is on page 109?
A guy in goggles with a sword driving some fucked up thingamajig that looks like a star wars speeder on steroids.
Now please, move on to the next fallacy/lie.

>>96264658
Nah.

>>96264557
>I know how they work perfectly well. I used them in many sessions.
So, you realized you sounded like a retard in the last thread and you've changed your story? This is gettin' sad my dude.

>>96264673
Wrong.
Page 109 features a gladiator fighting a zombie.
You don't even have a fucking PDF.

>>96264724
Wrong again, faggot. You've not even played the game enough to know there's more than one edition, eh?

>>96264724
>>96264739
Looking awfully retarded when you don't even know shit about the game you're desperately defending anon.

>>96264559
>Owning a physical rulebook is a solid indicator you played the game
That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard of. Every book hoarder I know has tons of rulebooks for games they've never played. And half the players I've seen don't have any physical rulebooks because online is more convenient. How stupid are you??

>>96264739
So, let me get this straight. You are basing your experience of Savage Worlds on explorer's edition. Not the current edition, not the deluxe edition, but the Internet archive Explorer's edition PDF?

You are basing current game state by using the rules from two editions back?

>>96264843
I've played multiple editions, anon. I purposefully used one that you definitely were too gameless to have even known existed, and to stupid to guess was legit despite my pretty specific description of what was on the page.

And as I predicted, now that you look retarded and wrong, you've moved onto another fallacy so you can go "Uhhh that doesn't count!" because you are incapable of making an effective argument.

>>96264858
No, faggot. You played your hand. Your misunderstanding of soak rolls and wild dice make sense now. You were using very dated mechanics from a dated edition.

You truly are a nogames.

>>96264952
>No, faggot. You played your hand.
Won, too.
>Your misunderstanding of soak rolls and wild dice make sense now. You were using very dated mechanics from a dated edition.
No, I was using the modern ones. If you want to explain the difference, please go ahead. We'll wait.
But you can't, and won't, because you've never even read any of the editions.

>>96264963
I gave you every opportunity to prove you played the game and you failed every one of them.

I'm not talking to you anymore.

>>96264598
Okay so why is vigor involved?

>>96264617
>No, anon, you only get wounds when your character isn't tough enough to resist the damage you've suffered.
So when you get shot in the head you're resisting it with how tough you are. So you still got shot in the head.
>>96264617
>The fact that you're so gameless you still don't understand what's wrong there is hilarious.
I didn't listen exact numbers dumbass. I listed multiples of ten. I can't remember the exact numbers. I numbered the sessions in my notes so I could refer to them.
>Unfortunately it backfired because you aren't as smart as you think you are, and now it's obvious that you've never even played the game.
Its obvious you're a ngger tier troll engaging in ad hominem because you have nothing else.

>>96265554
unrelated anon but If someone gets shot in the head at point blank you're just supposed to say they fucking die retard. This goes for any system because most systems damage values have weird situations like that, and when you run up against a situation where mechanics go against what you think should reasonably happen you ignore them and do what makes sense instead of doing stupid bullshit like halfling railgun.

>>96267174
In GURPS if you get headahotted with a 9mm you're taking like 12d6 damage against 10 hp so you're almost definitely making a save to not die right away and then making saves every round after that to not die. You're basically done for.

>>96267203
yeh, some systems try to account for the fact their combat math obviously doesn't work out in those situations and makes specific rules to fix that. That doesn't change the fact that you should ignore when systems dont do that, and in savage worlds you very clearly aren't supposed to say an attack shoots someone in the face unless the dice results reflect that because you describe the narrative result of the attack after the roll. In the event that a player does sneak up behind someone or is put in a situation where it just happens then yeh why bother rolling for some stupid "oh well the dice didnt quite work out" just say they fucking die.

>>96265028
>I gave you every opportunity to prove you played the game
We've already proven you had no idea how one would even do so, because you're a gamelet.
>and you failed every one of them.
I passed actually, you just got mad and wanted to go "W-well that doesn't count!" when you forgot savage worlds has more than one edition.
Sorry that you suck at arguing and are retarded, anon.

>>96265554
>He still doesn't understand how soak rolls work
I accept that you have no argument against them, anon.
>I didn't listen exact numbers dumbass.
Wanna try that again thirdie?
>I listed multiples of ten. I can't remember the exact numbers. I numbered the sessions in my notes so I could refer to them.
Yeah you've never played a game in your life. Not a single GM would bother listing every single session they've ran across multiple campaigns in numerical order.
>Its obvious you're a ngger tier troll engaging in ad hominem
The irony is palpable.

>>96268078
>Not a single GM would bother listing every single session they've ran across multiple campaigns in numerical order.
Objectively wrong because I've done it. Are you fucking retarded? I regretted not tracking these things in earlier campaigns I ran. Or played in. I wish I knew how many sessions my first ever DnD game was, because it was definitley over 100. You're so amazingly hung up on this one little detail, and it's because you're a zoomer and anything that Matt Mercer doesn't do, you can't comprehend.

>>96268787
>Objectively wrong because I've done it
No, anon, no you haven't. It's painfully obvious you haven't even run a game once in your life.
>buzzwords and sperging about matt mercer
Nice to see that you're mad about something else and projecting that anger onto me. I like when bad people are miserable.

>>96268796
It's painfully obvious you've never been in a campaign longer than 3 sessions. This "no games" shit is pure projection

>>96268900
>Y-you're projecting!
>Anon says, as he projects
The reason you didn't just ask me for proof I'd played a game but instead needed to do a cope and cry about PDFs was because actually playing didn't even occur to you.

>>96250634
Yeah, it is my preferred way of playing a high fantasy action oriented game.

There is also the Fantasy Companion. If you want a fantasy toolkit, the fantasy companion is honestly better.

Savage Pathfinder has two main things that the FC lacks, 1. Class Edges being baked into the game. You can get there with the FC but it takes a bit more work and then you got a balance encounters around the noticeably larger jump in power from that reworking. Better to not do all that and just play a lower level fantasy setting.
2. A fully fleshed out setting, bestiary, etc. This is by far the BIGGEST plus it has. Instead of a toolkit to make a fantasy setting to then play around in, you got a setting already and that's a massive time saver from a GM perspective.

The FC has trap rules, poison rules, and other stuff that PF strangely lacks though. I would still recommend PF over FC for newbies because it's infinitely easier to get players to try it.

>>96268948
I didn't cry about PDFs retard. That was someone else. I asked about why the vigor die is involved in a roll to soak a headshot when it's apparently a luck roll to see if it actually missed due to wild die. Except vigor is still involved. So how? No one can answer this. Yeah it gives you more "energy" to dodge but on the first round of combat you should have plenty. And then why not agility as an option? It's a dogshit mechanic. Also people don't survive 4 headshots and keep fighting in pulp.

>>96270341
>I didn't cry about PDFs retard. That was someone else.
Obvious lie is obvious.

>>96270341
If it was just your body toughing it out, why would it use a metacurrency? You're stupid and a failgm.

Had a buddy use the Deadlands Lost Colony stuff to run a Bravestarr campaign that was pretty banging.

Tex Hex crashing the joint as a Harrowed was a great.

>>96270557
Now that I think about it, SW would be able to handle a lot of 80s and 90s cartoon bullshit like Silverhawks, COPS, and Visionaries.

Visionaries has the best representation of a wizard in media.
>I created magical artifacts that grant magical or super human abilities to whoever uses them. Come conquer my dungeon to get them.
When it was pointed out by the heroes that world conquering villains were also competing to get the powers his response was.
>I don't give a shit. Entertain me. Also, you got to recharge the artifacts every so often by clearing an even deadlier dungeon.

Now that I think about it, Visionaries might have been a show about drug users chasing a high and trying to keep rival junkies from stealing their supply.

>>96270612

Revisited COPS recently. Under-rated show.

>>96270516
You can't do that. Not with a normal 50 percent chance to succeed vigor roll. The overwhelming majority of people shot in the head are incapacitated and die soon after.

>>96270341
Out of curiosity, how would you know the shots are headshots and not shots literally anywhere else? I'm not familiar with SW. Does it have limb targeting mechanics or something?

If it's a story element where you have a gun pointed at your head and get mag dumped then you shouldn't even roll for survival in most games, you just die.

GURPS Deadlands is superior in every way to either SW or Classic

>>96273709
>I'm not familiar with SW. Does it have limb targeting mechanics or something?
Yes. A headshot is a -4 to hit for +4 damage. So a pistol headshot deals 2d6+4 for 11 average damage. Actually i forgot to include exploding dice EV being higher so I think it's actually 12.4 which I may not have mentioned before. So on average a headshot against a 5 Toughness guy will fall just short of dealing 2 wounds. Sos it'll deal one. And to soak that wound, he just needs to roll 2d6 and at least one of them is 4 or higher. There's a 75 percent chance of that happening. So there's a 75 percent chance he can take no actual wound from a headshot. A .45 would on average deal 2 wounds and he'd only soak one, but he could still take 3 headshots from a .45 before dying and that's assuming an AVERAGE vigor score. And that he doesn't have Elan or that other edge that gives you a bonus on soak rolls.

>>96271008
Half this thread is sperging about the magic metacurrency, the only way any character can soak damage,and the wild die that is a build-in advantage on all rolls for "hero" characters.
The average person is an "extra" who is incapacitated or dies after 1 wound, everything else is some bullshit that's not even intended to be realistic.

>>96274326
>And to soak that wound, he just needs to roll 2d6 and at least one of them is 4 or higher.
You forgot to add that he needs to spend his twice-a-session metacurrency.

>>96275698
>he needs to spend his twice-a-session metacurrency.
You get three bennies per session you stupid nigger. Stop trolling.

>>96275390
It doesn't fucking matter. It's a pulp system and the heroes in pulp do not get headahotted 3 times as a regular occurrence.

>>96274326
Not to be a dick, but we literally have a president in office right now that survived a headshot from a rifle.

Same thing, mechanically it's a vigor roll, thematically it's a graze.

>>96276971
You're also encouraged, as the GM, to give out more bennies during the game.

The one weakness I have found with SW is the Bennie economy is mostly vibes based, which is kind of frustrating.

>>96278569
Supposed to be rewards for players acting on their hindrances and doing good roleplay. Honestly though, GMs should be handing them out pretty steady so players use them for all kinds of different shit besides soak rolls. Do that until players get a good feel for versatility through experimentation then scale back the frequency of handing them out a bit. Should still be frequent, but not as liberal as before.

>>96279068
Yeah, like I said, it's purely vibes. I wish there was a better system than "fuck around with it a bunch until you figure out how it works." Pretty much every bit of advice I've read on it boils down to "you'll get it eventually." For a subsystem that is as tied into gameplay as bennies, I wish there was a more robust system around the economy, like aspects and fate points in fate.

>>96279322
Compelling aspects for the player to gain or burn a fate point is nice.

The bigger challenge is getting GMs to use their supply more liberally. The sneaky thief type has succeeded in a trait test to sneak past the guards with a raise? The GM can absolutely slap a benny down and say "You stepped on a squeaky board causing the guards to come investigate." Using GM bennies for rerolls is a pretty boring use, using them to alter game states is much better use and keeps the players guessing more.

I am currently trying to make a Hexcrawl in Savage Worlds. Is this map too small?

>>96280371
Is this Korea?

>>96280429
shit

>>96279835
This is an excellent point. I always forget about my bennies when I'm behind the screen because I'm just not used to thinking about meta points that way when I'm gming.

>>96277186
So you can get grazed 3 times in a row?

>>96276971
Oh sorry you get to use your thrice-a-session metacurrency instead if you use your ruleset instead of the more common ones.
Better, retard?

>>96280371
Assuming there's stuff keyed to all those hexes, no, not at all. Plenty of wilderness around, and you have a huge buffer to plan more stuff if they're starting in the South.

>>96282099
Yeah, that's the whole idea behind being a wild card character. Seemingly impossible shit happens to the character who is a wild card. They make shots that shouldn't be possible, survive events they shouldn't be able to survive, defeat foes they shouldn't be able to defeat, and can throw a softball hard enough it hits with the force of an missile. Why? No real reason other than pure bullshit honestly. It's definitely not a system to promote realism. If you want realism, you definitely picked the wrong system.

>>96246458 (OP)
This shit is pretty fucking heated, but I'll throw in my two cents. I prefer more simulationist-style games - Mythras has been my go-to since forever, or some other variation of D100 - by I've quite liked Savage Worlds.

We only started playing it, recently - I got volunteered by a friend to GM a game for a group of people who have never played an RPG before (said friend included) - and I picked Savage Worlds as it's fairly straight forward, while still having some meat to it, for players to dig into, if they want to. It's done fairly well for us (though the playing-card initiative system is a bit weird - not bad, just a bit weird), but I don't think we've played enough, to figure out if there are any deep flaws to the system, yet. My only complaint, has been that there isn't enough depth to it - though again, I'm saying that as someone who normally plays with D100 systems, so its to be expected.

I'm quiet happy with it, so far. I don't think you'll be wasting an evening by playing it, anon. I'd give it a go.

>>96248859
>their is no moral gay
Never was. Sounds based that they acknowledge that. I think I'll give it a try.

>>96246458 (OP)
>take to any avid TTRPG player who's mid thirties.
>They tell me they used to play Savage Worlds quite a bit back in the early 2000s
>But haven't touched in years, maybe decades
What caused the game to drop from relevance like a rock? Even the 1d4chan page was never updated for SWADE.

>>96285520
It's still plenty relevant outside of /Tg/, it just sort of has its own ecosystem, and we have a dedicated autist who derails any conversation about the game, so threads like these end up being a chore.

>>96285520
SWADE and SW in general picked up more traction after getting Pathfinder. It's more widely known now than ever. It just isn't talked about much on /tg/ because someone who played over 200 games but doesn't know the rules keeps shitting every thread up so hard people avoid them here.

>>96273709
Coup de grace does exist is SW. If you are helpless and someone puts a gun to your head and pulls the trigger you just die no matter how many bennies you have to burn or how high your toughness is.

If you are a gunfight situation you 100% can luck into dodging or turning a would be headshot into a graze. I've seen enough gangbanger and cop footage of people mag dumping at less than 5 feet and still missing every single shot for it to be believable. And they were mostly aiming center of mass which is much easier to hit than a much smaller head.

>>96285707
>>96286143
Ah that's fair. It's just you don't really see rulebooks for it like in many LGS stores. Which I understand isn't the best metric but there's a few systems I see in pretty much half the stores. Savage World sits with Genesys and GURPS where I've only seen it at one LGS in all my travels, and that's my hometowns because I asked the guy to order it. (And I guess when he ordered one, he ordered two hardcovers. And now I see a couple softcovers.

>>96287379
Probably because the core rulebook was like $10 max pretty much everywhere online last edition and didn't leave enough meat on the bone for game shops to want people to invest in it.

Most FLGS are ran by morons who dedicate an astounding amount of their sales space to one or two games because "nothing else sells" which is hilarious because there is nothing else to BUY in the shop for it to sell.

I've run into two game shops that were not run by retards and they didn't dedicate any space to MtG (or any TCG) nor Warhammer with both owners saying those games are fucking quicksand to a game shop. They just had a bunch of board games, TTRPGs, rented tables, demoed games, and had different demos, painting jams, and such five nights a week.

>>96287468
I've noticed that it really depends on town. My town, despite being a small town had a surprisingly good stock of Battletech. And the owner has many times expressed interest in expanding beyond MtG/40k. So he often overbuys on items with the risk they'll sit on the shelf. But the store does well.
And from towns to town it really varies. One town had a bunch effectively 0 Battletech presence, but it had Genesys, the digimon tcg, and a few other. Another town had two stores, one dedicated entirely wargames and one dedicated to wntirely tcgs, 0 rpg presence but both had games I've never even heard of before.

Many different kinds of stories with maby wonders, but you are entirely right. The risk takers were the ones with booming stores. Well the the ones drying up only sold the big three, often with half the store being dedicated to cheap merch like funko pops.

That said. There is still a large market of people who only buy in person. It's the gateway into the hobby.

>>96285520
It was very innovative when it was first put out (largely because TTRPGs at that time were all doing the same shit and 3.5e+clones dominated harder than 5e does).
But being innovative doesn't itself give a game staying power, and the problems it has aren't ones easily fixed. So people just move on from it.

>>96287923
What do you mean by staying power, isn't someone liking it enough?

>>96287999
You'd think so, but no. Staying power is more complex than just how likable a game is.

Almost all systems, Savage Worlds included, are good for a short campaign or two. 3-6 months, one session a week, that sort of deal. It's almost a baseline in RPG design and if a game somehow lacks the content, depth, or width of rules to make that work, it's beyond abysmal and should be thrown in the trash.

The problem comes for longer games and consecutive campaigns. By the time you've played with a system for a year you'll have noted most of its flaws and failings, you'll probably know what situations it'll falters in and what situations it does best in. If it's a particularly robust system, it might do many things well (or poorly depending on how you look at it), but there'll still be problems it can't overcome.

Most people, gradually, try to fix these with houserules and homebrew rules to fix or substitute for what's busted, or to expand on what a system can offer. And this is where a game's staying power will get tested. What breadth of scenarios and situations can it handle? How easy is it to patch the holes? How modular is it? Does it have any problems that are so pervasive they're not worth fixing? How much work does it take to create new content? How well can it actually represent a later designers intentions?
The answers to those questions will determine whether someone will stick with a system for 4 months, 4 years, or 40 years.

These also get reflected in a system's base and how they respond to criticism. In most D&D discussions, bringing up a problem with the system will have people offer you possible solutions, because for all its failings, almost all variations of it are very easy to modify without turning it into an unplayable mess.
For shorter lasting systems, the hangers on instead just deny said problems exist and get hostile and defensive towards criticism.

>>96287379
Huh, weird, my LGS not only has a pretty robust Savage Worlds section, they sell out of core books pretty regularly.

>>96288029
All these words to say nothing.

>>96288029
Good post. It is very frustrating when a system has a flaw baked so deeply into it that you can't fix it without throwing half or more of it out.

>>96285707
Maybe if you refuted the arguments instead of "lol you don't know how to play the game" and other bullshit, that wouldn't happen anymore.

>>96282494
That doesn't happen in pulp media though. This has nothing to do with realism. The way the bennies work for wound soaking is unrealistic to the genre. If your vigor is involved, you're being shot in the head. You're SOAKING wounds not turning them into misses. The way the game works leads to some fantastically fucking stupid outcomes narratively. It's not about realsin, it's about genre realism, which is important in every game. Being fling against a building and surviving in a marvel movie is realistic, but a mundane human being shot in the head 3 times with a gun is not. It doesn't happen in these movies. So it definitely doesn't fit the pulp genre, and thus the rules are literally wrong and bad.

>>96288955
Sounds like you only watch garbage then, skill issue nogames.

>>96288869
Yeah it sucks, I've gotten to the point where I mostly do homebrew system shit anyways though so I just take what concepts I like and see if I can implement them in a better structure.

>>96288955
I dislike it when people throw around the NPC pejorative, but you legitimately come off like an NPC. You have Edna levels of autism.

>>96289161
No he doesn't.
t. The main anon he's been arguing with

My only gripe is one that exists for most universial systems. Which is they allow you to play any setting, but if you try to mix them then they start to run into more and more complications. Especially when you try to mix high and low tech. Or trying to put magic vs machine gun.
Though I will give Savage Worlds a benny over most universial systems. A guy with a gun will probably destroy a medieval knight. But if the melee build gets into melee range the tables do legitimately turn. Long-Arms can't fire in melee range, sidearms will have to test for parry for attacks, and the melee build will have high parry well a gunner will have a parry of 2.
Also of you really want to narrow the gap and dip into anime territory. Then Supers Companion can really help you there.

Also the system sucks for traditional boss fights. Though some see this as a good thing, and I don't think the game was ever designed within the scope of Goku fighting Brolly or anything like that.

>>96290429
>Mix low tech and high tech
That's just kinda silly to do in general.
It's akin to having high fantasy and low fantasy combined, the low aspect just stops existing as the setting is going to judged on its highest aspect in general.

Genesys and SW both do handle range vs melee good though, I agree on that. Getting into melee range against a distance based opponent is a bitch, but if Axe McGee does close that gap, Guns Johnson is usually incredibly fucked.

>>96288955
Mechanically you are soaking wounds, narratively you are suffering grazes or near misses instead. That's all that's happening.
The gun was fired and SHOULD have blasted your head off, but you moved at the last second an narrowly avoided death. You could argue that is an agility trait roll, and that's fair, however, it is just as bullshit. The gun is fired, the bullet is in flight, and time stops because you spent a meta currency to fuck with an assured outcome through bullshit fate manipulation effects.

You don't like it? That's fine, however, it has been explained why it functions and you just can't accept it.

>>96246458 (OP)
Savage Worlds has its roots in wargaming and I find it ends up best enjoyed by the kind of player who enjoys tactical combat and making builds. If one player plans their builds and the other player just kind of picks stuff there will be a power gap by Veteran tier. People who enjoyed 3.5e or enjoy combat and invest in learning the game will have the most fun. At the same time people who are very casual and just want to show up and roll dice will struggle with this game and not understand what is going on. The game needs some effort by players.
I feel the biggest strength of Savage Worlds is that you can make a wide variety of characters. A war photographer who sucks at attacking, but distracts enemies and assists teammates in combat is a viable character.
The criticism that the game is not as fast as it purports is valid. It is certainly faster than 3.5E, 5E, or Pathfinder. However, it still has a lot of player options in combat that can overwhelm your slower players and slow the game down. This isn't really a critical flaw, just something to keep in mind.
The other thing to keep in mind that while the game is great for multiple settings, it only has one style. It is meant to be pulpy. So characters range from competent to experts. Combat is it bit swingy where enemies go down fast. The guy complaining about Savage Rifts is right about Rifts. Rifts tries to scale the power too high and things start to have problems.
Savage Pathfinder is a good start because it has some guidelines and already picked the optional rules to use for you.
Bennies are meant to help smooth out swings for players. I recommend they keep one in the bank to soak. As a GM bennies are more the gas and brake. Only use GM bennies to soak if your players are steamrolling. Use GM bennies to reroll attacks or damage if the players are feeling too invincible. If the encounter is going as desired, just sit on them.
Good game, but not for everyone.

>>96290929
>Mechanically you are soaking wounds, narratively you are suffering grazes or near misses instead. That's all that's happening.
Right. It's a dissociated mechanic, the same thing for which D&D 4e (rightfully) caught so much flack. The mechanics say the wound doesn't happen, but they don't represent it in a sensible way. That's anti-SW Anon's criticism, as far as I can tell, and I think it's valid.

>>96290929
At least Savage Sperg is nitpicking a rule from the current edition instead of something like "Wild Attack inflicts Parry -2!"
As seen here >>96248841

>>96291255
Oh, absolutely. I can readily admit tons of gaming stuff doesn't make sense but gets the job done and move on. XP doesn't make sense, you killed a rat and now you have more blood in your body (hp gain) and can see further (skill increase). It's dumb, but it works for gaming purposes and that's all that I give a shit about in the end. It's why I didn't sperg out about a knife costing more than a tank in Starfinder. Is it retarded? Oh yeah. Does it serve the function of loot leveling fine? Also yes.

>>96290884
>That's just kinda silly to do in general.
It's akin to having high fantasy and low fantasy combined, the low aspect just stops existing as the setting is going to judged on its highest aspect in general.
I'd argue making the high fantasy aspects more rare can, if done well, lead to it feeling mysterious and mystical than f its omnipresent. Likewise can apply to technology. But then again, I also just like silly and enjoy playing in absurd settings.

>>96246601
I hate savage worlds and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone so I would think so!

>>96289081
>Sounds like you only watch garbage then
Name a non anime pulp film where a guy takes multiple headshots and keeps fighting.

>>96289161
>NPC uses ad hominem (an NPC tier argument) to call someone an NPC.
Poetic.

>>96290929
>You don't like it? That's fine, however, it has been explained why it functions and you just can't accept it.
I accept it. I accept it as bullshit and a bad game mechanic. Looks like you do too.

>>96291415
>At least Savage Sperg is nitpicking a rule from the current edition instead of something like "Wild Attack inflicts Parry -2!"
>literally nitpicking a minor change in the rules
Oh no! You can be shot more easily too! It's still extremely overpowered and way overused. Also that rule change was dumb as hell if the point of 4 TN for ranged attacks is that you can't dodge those shots. Not exactly a W for SWADE there.

>>96292097
So, what happens in your mind when you're playing a game? It is just abstract numbers against abstract numbers? I've never heard of a person who claims to be interested in roleplaying games so completely allergic to imagination and visualization. just kidding we all know the only roleplaying you do is pretending to play games on a hmung sewing message board.

>>96291415
Those are 100 percent both arguments from the same guy, he has variations on the same 3 or 4 things he brings up every time.

>>96292097
>It's bullshit
100% agree
>Bad game mechanic
100% disagree

If it works as intended, functions well, and is easy to use, then it's a good mechanic, even if it's bullshit from a logical standpoint. To be fair, I give games that don't even try to be a realistic representation of real life a lot more slack and SW CLEARLY doesn't even somewhat attempt to be a realistic system.

>>96291417
>It's dumb, but it works for gaming purposes and that's all that I give a shit about in the end.
XP makes sense in these contexts though and it's not even due to gamification, it's just a matter of gaining experience by, well, doing things.
The soak rolls don't because they imply it's actually soaking things both in name and with the dice roll and don't clarify otherwise anywhere in the book, unlike HP and how it's supposed to (and yet also doesn't) represent stamina, luck, and fighting spirit and all that. Though in HPs favor, it comes from a very old practice where they never did feel like meat points and just got you a step or two further from dying, like Wounds in the WHF games.
Not to mention on a game level, it just doesn't work well.

>>96292928
>If it works as intended
Yet it doesn't.
>Functions well
Yet it doesn't.
>Is easy to use
And it isn't.
People have pointed out the problem with SW's mechanics throughout the thread and soak rolls don't really escape them.

>>96294001
>Yeah, but it's different than those other things! Just because!
K
>>96294009
Works just fine in my games, skill issue maybe?

>>96294073
Sample size of zero.

>>96294001
You really seem caught up on the naming convention here. If Vigor was just named Defense instead, would that solve your complaint?

>>96294009
Soak rolls work fine. Honestly it's weird how hard people go against the game. Play something else, man.
>It's got faults
Absolutely does. Nobody is saying it doesn't. It's just a fun system that gets the job done well enough for action movie type stuff, so people like using it.

>>96294735
>You really seem caught up on the naming convention here.
Considering that's my first post mentioning it, not really.
>If Vigor was just named Defense instead, would that solve your complaint?
It wouldn't really make sense as a stat anymore. Honestly, I think the game is fundamentally flawed in terms of how its damage system works and that it'd take more than a name change to fix it.

>>96294735
Not that anon, but let's see:
>Attributes
>Vigor represents an individual’s endurance, resistance to disease, poison, or toxins, and how much physical damage she can take before she can’t go on. It is most often used to resist Fatigue effects, and as the basis for the derived stat of Toughness.

Since Vigor is for endurance and such as well, no, changing the name to Defense wouldn't really fix it. It would just make Soak even more vague than it was before while making other parts of Vigor nonsensical.

>>96294754
>Soak rolls work fine.
Not really.
>Play something else, man.
I do, but criticisms were asked for. Don't blame me if you can't handle people not liking the game.
>It's just a fun system that gets the job done well enough for action movie type stuff, so people like using it.
It seems to just be one or two autists hell bent on insisting it works fine and is good, so nah I don't think it really is. I'm sure people who fudge and houserule it sufficiently and attached to it before they got more experience with the system enjoy it, but you can have that occur with any system, so it's meaningless.