Thread 96925707

Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first-decade, Gygaxian D&D, its faithful modern clones, and content created for use with them. Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere.

Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons played as intended by its creators from 1974 to 1983 — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching metaplots and a greater emphasis on player agency.

If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started. We also have two excellent beginner guides created by Anons with feedback from the thread that you can check for help:

>n00b DM's Guide
https://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B
>n00b Player's Handbook
https://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0

>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:
http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128

>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94994969/#95006768

>Previous thread:
>>96917916

>Thread Question:
Which OSR game was your first OSR experience? Do you still play that game today, or have you moved to something else?

What is the best iteration of the classic halloween Witch for a player class for any old school d&d game

can't stand Necrotic Gnome/Gavin Norman/OSE any more. the whole thing does my tits in.

>>96925707 (OP)
praise to the roman swine for delivering us from the ESL nogames scum

>>96925751
BX magic user

>>96925818
Gayboy answer

>>96925821
I don't need stupid freakshit to satisfy my storyfag urges the same way you do.
However I suspect you don't actually play games at all

So, it turns out that these threads have been infected by BrOSR, which makes a lot of sense in hindsight.

What are BrOSR? It’s something of a joke within the OSR community, about guys with an obsession of a “one true way to play” and often LARPing as dudebros. What that one true way seems to vary considerably, with some self-described BrOSR appealing to tradition and authority as much as they can and claiming that “gygaxian” AD&D1e as RAW as it can be is the ONETRVEWAY, others including a strange version of 1:1 time and other attempts to make the game more “hardcore”, and many giving up the “as traditional as you can make it” illusion entirely and playing, of all games, ACKS.

I’m somewhat shocked about that last point as well. Largely because out of all the b/x clones out there, it is very far away from being traditional. Likely, the main reason that BrOSR have latched onto that game in particular is because its fanbase is distinctly right-leaning and have gotten themselves banned from several websites/subreddits for “brigading”. There is a distinct fondness for trolling among BrOSR, particularly right-wing oriented trolling, and what they’re playing seems to be not as important as their ability to antagonize anyone who plays differently. I had assumed that the trolls here were just expressing their personal preferences for systems, but it being ingrained within the BrOSR community does explain why we’ve seen so much trolling regarding what is an incredibly niche system within an already niche category.

While BrOSR is often just used as a pejorative, there are actually BrOSR who label themselves as such, and they go HARD on the business of trying to tell everyone not just what the “true” OSR is, but fighting it out over what the “true” BrOSR games are. Of course, there’s also plenty of BrOSR who prefer to avoid all the negativity that the other BrOSR have garnered, and will instead claim that they are not BrOSR, BrOSR are something else, please stop saying BrOS.

>>96925869
It’s unsurprising that 4chan, with its anonymity and the ability to call each other “faggot” here, would be quite attractive to BrOSR. And, the /osrg/ would be an ideal place to try and infect with their personal ideologies, having been a rather small general and generally mild mannered. This combines with how the OSR community in general seems like a perfect environment for the BrOSR to have developed, which is unfortunate.

The OSR began as a way to preserve older games and mechanics and celebrate them, and has always been a large, loose, and diverse group with many different interpretations of what “Old school” meant. But, a celebration of the past also opens the door to people who hate the future, and you can’t leave a door open without potentially letting in people who want to close it. Some figures and groups have tried to form more concrete and restrictive definitions of what OSR means, but ultimately those efforts never succeeded beyond small groups because of the general unpopularity of those opinions combined with the endless proliferation of opinions and the de-centralized nature of the OSR.

>>96925883
The /osrg/, with its BrOSR infestation, has become something of a punching bag joke to the rest of this board. Touring around the board in recent days, and the opinions expressed about it are quite unflattering. The efforts involved from the BrOSR in separating out not just NuSR but 2e has given the entire general a reputation as wildly intolerant yet also hypocritical, not unlike the reputation that BrOSR have inflicted on the OSR as a whole, leading many creators intentionally distancing their games from being associated with them. Here, the efforts that the BrOSR have put into trolling, along with a characteristic shameless style involved, have garnered the /osrg/ with a reputation as hostile, desperate to groom newcomers, and generally unpleasant, with what little game discussion feeling incredibly dry and often feeling forced, amidst incredible amounts of trolling.

We’ve seen the trolling manifest in a number of ways. The “n00b” guide, for instance, is less focused on being an aid to new people and more of a propaganda document that’s been routinely called out as containing high levels of misinformation, particularly about what the OSR actually is and what defines an OSR game. The OP itself has been modified considerably with misinformation, complete with a trolling insistence that it reflects a consensus reached by the people of the /osrg/. This actually lead to the general being split, with one thread returning to the original oldest /osrg/ opening that is distinctly more open and broad, and the othre having a new /osrg/ opening with an even more restrictive and more BrOSR OP.

>>96925893
The original /osrg/ was harassed by BrOSR trolls, but continued to exist and hold discussions about OSR games. With the BrOSR’s more modest efforts at trolling being apparently ineffective, we then saw BrOSR trolls spend several days flooding multiple iterations of that general in a misguided effort to try and discourage people from posting in there, while routinely claiming their more restrictive BrOSR general was the “true” /osrg/. And yet, despite their most transparent efforts in hoping to use pure and simple shitposting to get their way, all it resulted in was demonstrating to the board just how much effort they’re willing to put into pushing their ideology and trying to stop people from having the /osrg/ reflect OSR as opposed to BrOSR.

What all this “drama” means to most of this board is not a whole lot. Several threads filled with shitposting mostly, to be largely forgotten with the endless rolling nature of this board. The matter occasionally leaks out into other threads, but as a whole this is just one of many strange little conflicts over something only the most severe dweebs can care about currently taking place on this board. The BrOSR presence on 4chan is really just something that should be expected, like any other sort of trolling, and judging by the “passion” demonstrated by the BrOSR, it would be impossible to dislodge them from here and never worth the effort even if it were possible. Ultimately, it’s good to remember that the world is large, and while a few dedicated people can cause quite a disturbance or disruption in a small general or a board, the essential truths will inevitably reveal themselves, because they exist outside of any attempts to establish echo chambers.

>>96925896
4chan, for all its trolls, continues to function, and I think the disclaimer on /b/ presents the only way it can.
>“The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.”
Even this entire post should not be treated as fact simply because I say it is. If you have any doubts, I can provide sources, ranging from self-described BrOSR blogs that demonstrate their mentality, examples of the aforementioned BrOSR flooding efforts, and other websites (including EnWorld, Dragonsfoot, Reddit, and Twitter) discussing their ongoing annoyance/struggles with BrOSR. But, I also just encourage anyone who’s even mildly interested in this (whatever sad fools they must be) to look for the information themselves, since it’s not hard to find (often with just a quick google/archive search). I have that level of faith in how easily the truth reveals itself with even just the most minimum effort involved.

And, of course, the BrOSR can and likely will try to deny all of this, as is their nature, and will hope to employ more subtle BrOSR ideology blogs in a fashion they imagine is convincing, while also presenting various forms of distractive trolling. The truly unfortunate thing is that there are definitely some people who are just “mildly” BrOSR, or coincidentally aligned with one of their idealogies, and they would really just love if things would settle where the /osrg/ became the /brosrg/ in all but name and they could sit quietly in the echo chamber made by the more fervent trolls. But, considering the escalation that seems inherent within the BrOSR mentality, and the freedom that 4chan allows that makes it basically impossible to maintain an echo chamber for very long, their genuine love for their personal style of gaming will grow increasingly tainted by the BrOSR influence and their efforts to build and maintain their narrowed vision.

>>96925901
Aside from a love of trolling and whatever personal/political/emotional agendas they might have, it may even just be that some BrOSR genuinely believe their style of play is truly the best and all others should be discouraged. But, all the implications of “Everyone thinks what they like best is the best” is something that’s apparently never been revealed to them, so they’ve never been able to accept that if people are going to discuss OSR, they’re going to have to accept that other’s opinions may be wildly different than their own, and that everyone should be free to express them in a respectable manner. These are basic platitudes taught to school children, and it’s kind of ridiculous that they need to be repeated here.

>>96925869
>>96925883
>>96925893
>>96925901
>>96925896
>>96925909
uchomay extotay

>>96925760
>>96925978
oureyay aggotsfay
Why are BrOSR fags (they suppress their homoerotic and homoromantic feelings beneath macho bro personae) such incorrigible shitposters?

>>96925978
tl;dr: People need to relax. OSR's natural diversity means lots of games will inevitably be brought up, including 2e and some NuSR and even some more distant OSR relations, and the only people who'd get mad about this are BrOSR trolls.

>>96925707 (OP)
>Which OSR game was your first OSR experience?
B/E and AD&D (the real one, not the knockoff).

>Do you still play that game today, or have you moved to something else?
I play my own mashup of the first decade editions.

>>96926013
i'm actually homosexual, gb2/b/.

at least i can post on-topic.

the one true way to play is B/X RAW including the parts about adding parts, just as the modules do.

maybe that makes me a 'brOSR dudebro' or whatever the fuck, i'm not on all these blogs and Discords.

>>96925978
Can you please stop shitposting? You're about as bad as fishfag when it comes to disrupting conversation.

anyone on RIzom atm? please let the mods know about this guy.

>>96926169
>pretending to complain about shitposting just in order to perform boogyemanning
>>96926013 is right, you really are incorrigible.

>>96925814
You seem like the kind of retard who praise OP the PP grabber.

>>96926169
He far worse than fishfag as unlike fish boogeyman he exists.

>>96925707 (OP)
>Which OSR game was your first OSR experience? Do you still play that game today, or have you moved to something else?
Rules Cyclopedia; still love it as a single-volume hardback edition of old-school D&D. Nowadays I mostly run LBB OD&D though. Some of the rules are still better than any subsequent edition and the scope for creativity is unbeatable once you feel secure as a referee.

>>96925978
>the incantation summons the janissaries
Thank fuck, at last! Praise be to the mods.

>>96926322
Fucking finally; thank god at least one mod understands what trolling is. Goddamn schizo.

Okay, actual games posting. I'm starting a new campaign and I've decided to pivot from a focus on the wilderness to a focus on the city. Any books you'd personally recommend? Because a lot of what I'm reading is of the bland, overly detailed sort of thing. Bard's Gate is dull.

I've been enjoying the Echoes From Fomalhaut stuff, being very punchy and focused on adventuring rather than giving me the HD of every butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. Anything else like that?

>>96926157
Makes you bad, but at least you admit it.

>>96926398
I think my advice might be useless because I love the CSIO, which sounds like exactly what you don't want. That said, I also really like Melan's Echoes stuff, and if you haven't read his module Trail of the Sea-Demon and his big urban random encounter table The Nocturnal Table you should definitely chack those out. Trail incorporates and expands on his earlier free module House of Rogat Demazien which is a heist against an absent wizard's home, and The Nocturnal Table is something like 300 short, good random encounters, can't get much punchier than that.

>>96926432
>I will simply repost my deleted posts as a shit quality image, that will force my enemies [the entire rest of the thread] to read them!
Genius. Thats a genius plan. Nothing can go wrong, kek

>>96926157
I thinks its all about how "one true way" you are. If you're just tongue-in-cheek about it and are happy that other people have their own "one true way", you're not much different than someone who has his one waifu.
If you fight wars on 4chan how a system is heresy and not true OSR, you need to get yourself fucked.

>>96926021
The thread with the anti-2e text is the fake thread. Jannies should clean it up.

>>96926901
Yes, the fake thread is the one with a broad consensus of thread posters and support from the pastebin maintainer.
Retard.

>>96926916
You really need to quit trying to come up with bullshit fallacies why people should listen to you when you're just flat out wrong. You don't have a consensus. Your authorities are dumb and deplete any reason to respect their opinions. You can't gaslight people like you've been trying and you can't troll your way to being seen as right.

>>96925707 (OP)
>Which OSR game was your first OSR experience? Do you still play that game today, or have you moved to something else?
I got into OSR thanks to Labyrinth Lord and mostly that's what I've been running these past 7, 8 years. Will probably move to OSRIC 3 whenever it comes out.

>>96925760
Norman probably has data on OSE Advanced being their best selling/most played product, so can't blame the guy for trying to focus their efforts and resources on that line. Sucks for OSE Basic fans, but the pdfs are still available and nobody is not going to show up at your house to take your books away.

>>96926013
It's because that's all they know. Deprive a man of any genuine love, and he becomes filth.

>>96926901
It's crazy what happens when people are allowed to go unchecked. I understand the anti-2e guys are incredibly obsessed and motivated, but trying to pretend 2e is not OSR takes just so much mental gymnastics.

>>96920683
Where can I find a good iteration of this house rule?

>>96927067
LotFP has a slot-based encumbrance system, it's okay. But fearing the coin-based encumbrance is for weak-kneed NuSR fags afraid of numbers.Literal children can handle it just fine, unless your group contains medically diagnosed retards, you're probably underestimating them.

>>96927082
BROSR advice sounds so dumb.

>>96927102
It among most brosr advice is meant as a half joke but autists here can't seem to grasp it.

>>96927067
>>96927082
LotFP has probably the best Equipment Slot rules, you can also check out the Carcass Crawler #2 rules for OSE, which are pretty similar. It shouldn't be too hard to slap them on top of whatever OSR game you're running and call it a day. I find slots are a clear QoL improvement over most other systems, keep DM encumbrance checks during game to a minimum and doesn't have players doing math at the end of the session when it's time to load the carts with loot and go back to town. And don't get me started on having to convert pounds or stones to kg on the fly because your group uses metric. Misery.

But then again, you can also disregard all of this and do what most DMs have done since 1973: eyeball encumbrance or ignore it altogether.

>>96927264
That's just coward talk, backpedaling when called out.

>>96925289
>No one's asked me to post a character sheet because, get this, I'm not the same person that request has been made to.
In that case; it's incredible how we keep running into a series of subhumanoids who all hold the same opinions and all insist they're no the same person in the exact same way.
You know, by being condescending faggots.

>>96927317
But anon, that's exactly what you're doing.

>>96927082
>>96927265
Thanks. It's not about math, it's about the character sheets being all smudgy by now after so many erase.

Strict weight tracking is too much works for too few rewards. Removing 10 coins for every burned out torches every 6 searched rooms really take away from the game. Maybe I'm doing it wrong and it's not supposed to be adjusted in real time?

I was planning to switch to OSE simplified system or reduce their carrying capacity to 1300 to account for adventuring gears at all time but I'll check into the equipment slot too then.

>>96927751
>Maybe I'm doing it wrong and it's not supposed to be adjusted in real time?
Depends on which game you're running. In Basic you actually are doing it wrong, general adventuring gear is abstracted to weighing 80#/8lbs, specifically to avoid that kind of thing. So when you drop a burnt torch you just don't bother adjusting your weight.

>>96926916
There's no "broad consensus" there's one guy with a VPN.

>>96926169
>>96926255
>>96926266

>Leasepay to say hitsay osringpay!!!
>>Llay ostspay iay epliedray otay otgay eleteday
Ekkay illkay ourselfyay sleay ogamesnay etardray

>>96928505
I think there's more than one brosr.
There's not many though, and definitely not representing a "concensus."

>>96926255
>Using an AI p in a generator to create a full screenshot of 4chan from 18 years ago
Wow, you ESL retards really are pathetic

>>96928544
>It's the ACKS brigade!
>Actually it's the brOSR!
>Well actually it's not that brOSR, it's a different one!
You're a pathetic loser and the beatings will continue until morale improves

>>96926432
>I'm going to upload screenshots of my own posts, that will certainly reinforce my schizophrenic delusions in public!

>>96927034
It doesn't matter whether or not you fucking consider osr or not you absolutely retard.
This has been explained to you countless times, almost every day for fucking weeks now:

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF 2E IS CONSIDERED "OSR", JUST LILE SHADOWDARK.
/osrg/ is a subset of a subset, and it has a much more narrow and focused scope than your retarded esl peabrain is capable of comprehending.

>>96928565
Is this your blog, or just one of your friends?
https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbdubsanddragons.blogspot.com%2F2025%2F07%2Fhow-to-make-d-after-action-reports-as.html

>>96928505
>>96928544
Kek, absolutely pathetic delulu

>>96928609
I don't read blogs I just play the games.
>Also
>Taking an obvious parody troll blog so seriously that you are seething about it
Sounds like you fell for the bait hook line and sinker, fucko

>>96928590
We should change the name so people stop being confused and the whole conflict dies. Leave the /osrg/ to the actual full OSR, and change this subset thread to /sosrg/ or /fosrg/ or /gosrg/ or /brosrg/ or /rosrg/.

>>96928565
>>96928505
Addition:
>Okay it's not that brOSR, it's one guy with a VPN!
(vpns don't work on 4chan btw)

>>96928667
You didn't check that blog.

>>96928680
Sure, feel free to open up a new tab and start a thread with whatever title you'd like, otherwise your impotent screeching really doesn't amount to much.
Btw you do play games, right, you do have a character sheet?

>>96928680
Nope! This is the /osrg/ and will remain the /osrg/, take your impotent seething somewhere else. Maybe you can start a thread being mad about us on Reddit! That will get some updoots, I bet.

>>96928590
ANon my friend, you need to calm down. Shadowdark *is* an OSR game, it's just not a particularly good one. Anons can discuss it here if thye want, they just shouldn't expect very positive reactions.

2e, on the other hand, is not an OSR game. It's off-topic for the OSR General (this general) and should be discussed elsewhere.

>>96928719
It is OSR though. It's TSR-era D&D. It's not just compatible or related either, it's mainline. It's more OSR than 90% of OSR games.

>>96928719
Shadowdark is NuSR and should be discussed in that general.

>>96928843
There really doesn't need to be a seperate NuSR general. These threads are slow enough (when you're not trolling in them). The main reason people even started posting in the NuSR is because it meant they could avoid you and your purity trolling.

>>96928302
Mmh. Interedasting. I'm playing OSE and my two choices are Simplified (add treasure, don't add equipments, speed is impacted by armor type and referee call on treasure load) or Advanced (add treasure, add equipment, speed is impacted by total weight).

I'll go and check Basic but if you have a page number for me it's all the easier. I'm curious how they came up with this 80 coins weight value: comparing OSE simplified versus OSE advanced one can deduce adventuring gear is abstracted to 160 coins.*

*[As in a PC with a Light Armor but no Treasure is the same speed as someone weighting from 400 to 799 in Advanced when a Light Armor weight 200 coins; whereas an Unarmored PC without Treasure is the same speed as someone weighting anywhere between 0 to 399.
So 400 for a Light Armored - 200 for its Light Armor leaves us at 200 for an Unarmored still carrying equipments + weapon.
Now if we want to deduce weapons from that and accept that our average Unarmored PC wouldn't fight with a long sword, polearm or spear then the average weapon weights 40 coins. 200 coins minus 40 coins leaves us at 160 coins of equipments.]

Not going full autismo here, just being curious. I understand this is an abstraction and we don't have to go overboard with this. Any number between 100 to 300 looks fair game at first glance.

Anyway: pretty cool, I was doing it wrong so I can stop bothering them for each torches, iron pikes and bags.

>>96928862
I’m not your bogeyman, bud.

>>96928892
Look up how "you" can be used.

>>96928765
Incorrect. OSR is not defined as "TSR-era D&D" and nobody who's ever been into the OSR believes that. But you already know this, so fuck off.

>>96928906
Yes, it is. That's the most common shorthand definition.
The actual definition is BROADER.

>>96928868
OSE under Detailed Encumbrance

Equipment: The weight of the character’s armour and weapons is also tracked (the weight of these items is listed in the equipment list). Miscellaneous adventuring gear (backpack, spikes, sacks, etc.) may be counted as 80 coins of weight.

>>96928868
>if you have a page number for me it's all the easier
Sure, pal! Encumbrance is page B20; you specifically want the bottom of the Encumbrance Table at the top of the right-hand column.

In fact, hell, here, have a screencap.

>I'm curious how they came up with this 80 coins weight value
Basic being what it is, there is no elaboration on that. I'd imagine it was just off the top of their heads, though, since most weights sre fucked up in every edition of D&D.

>>96928916
Nope! This is literally nothing but a ridiculous lie you've invented to try to topic slide the thread. Better luck in your next life, li'l trollbro!

>>96928942
>and content created for use with them.
You can't even exclude it from your own attempt to deliberately exclude it.

>>96928917
Sheeeeeeit. Thanks anon. Funny to me I could waste ten minutes doing tedious calculus but couldn't bother reading for more than ten seconds.

Curious to know if my math still stands or if I'm an absolute brainlet until the very end?

>>96928934
Cheers to you too anon, can't believe I shat on my players' fun making them track minor items nobody ever gave a shit about. Silly me.

And now on my way to go and check those equipment slots systems and find minor stuff to whine about!

>>96928868
Wow that's a lot of text about nothing from an ignorant newfag retard

>>96929017
Kek, don't worry about it too much, learning the system is necessarily a learning experience. And that's what your friendly local grognards are here for! Well, that and shitting on the local 2etard troll.

>>96929036
Did the human genetic pool a favour and kill yourself you fucking subhuman ichtyoid scumbag.

>>96929042
I can't even tell if you're falseflagging and deliberately trying to look dumb, or if you're actually being you.

>>96929036
>having been utterly defeated in his latest attempt to slide the thread, the troll returns to his last-ditch tactic of just increasing the negativity in the thread so he can then accuse it of being full of assholes
Like all your attempts, this would work a lot better if your writing style weren't so extremely identifiable. The tranny discords really aren't sending their best.

>>96929055
He's over in the 2e general shitting the place up as we speak.

>>96929065
I saw it. He even declared that he's attacking /2eg/ because somebody said something he didn't like on his own thread. He's vile.

>>96929090
>>96929065
You going to cry about it?
Don't forget to check your spam folder by the way LMAO pathetic faggot

Jesus christ brosr really are shameless.

>>96929097
>Don't forget to check your spam folder
He's even admitting that he's here to spam, now. Good.

Kindly requesting Echoes From Fomalhaut #13: Isle of the Ascended Ones

>>96929036
Avehay away ouyay iway uessgay. Ownay ostpay ouryay harcaetrcay heetsay.

>>96929107
That's like their primary characteristic. The whole "yo bro, look how hard i can troll, can't ban me, i just evade" attitude.

>>96928539
>t. retard who loves penises.

>>96929107
Its a consistent effort to coopt the osr threads. First 2e is offtopic, then retroclones, and finally it will be only bx and 1e. Dont forget the
>we all collectively decided
(Aka i personally decided) language being employed. Classic gaslighting, somebkdy should burn the troll so it doesnt regrow.

>>96929438
>TOUT TOUT
He's doing it again XD

>>96929438
I don't think he has any idea how 4chan works or how dumb he looks for trying to lie like that here.

>>96928555
That image is probably older than you, retard

>>96929431
>etardray iggernay ILLSTAY antcay eadray
ekkay, ejjay veneay, ogaemesnay aggotfay

>>96929459
Lol! Youre the one purity spiralling here buddy, not me. You made the /2eg/ thread as a tantrum, youre the one doing the gaslighting. Please, stop trolling the threads and just let people talk about athas if they want to. This is the thread for 2e stuff, after all.

It's kinda amazing that he's been reduced to a pig by his own trolling. Poetic, even.

>>96929486
I forgot to update it with your latest idiocy! Here is version 9, enjoy.

>>96929483
>watch me hit my face with my keyboard while making retarded sounds.

>>96929543
Good grief man, you could be doing anything else with your life instead of having a tantrun over people talking about a game in a thread on /tg/. I get it, you only want 1e RAW and everything else is fake NOT REAL TRUE SCOTSMAN osr, but people with other viewpoints exist. Youre hitting lolcow status, take a good long look at yourself, and just accelt people want to play dark sun or birthright and no amout of pissing & whinging will ever change that.

>>96929585
I don't think I've ever heard of a lolcow desperate to try and make a boogeyman lolcow before.
He must have been bullied HARD as a kid.

>>96929543
lol good one

You should add the ACKShill one too

>>96929606
I dont know or really care. I just wan tto talk about dungeon crawling on athas man

>>96929620
While you're here, can you honestly tell us how hard you were bullied? I'm curious what kind of case we're dealing with.

>>96929620
Dude, youre samefagging, NOBODY is falling for it. Just stop man, youre derailing the the thread. People are gonna talk about 2e regardless of your antics, so ubless youre asking for a 2 week vacation get back on topic.

>>96929438
>Its a consistent effort to coopt the osr threads. First 2e is offtopic, then retroclones, and finally it will be only bx and 1e.
No, it's literally always just been 2e since 2012 or 2014 or whenever the general started. The slippery slope only exists in your imagination.

>>96929620
Not sure how, I'm running out of space and just "ACKS shill" doesn't quite make it justice.

>>96929654
>>96929666
Why are you so upset? Which of those idiot lines are yours?

>>96929682
You are demonstrably lying.
You are also entirely conceptually wrong, since 2e is OSR.

>>96929643
>I just wan tto talk about dungeon crawling on athas man
So go to /2eg/? There's literally a dedicated general for that, what are you complaining about?

>>96929694
>Which of those idiot lines are yours?
All of them are his, of course.

>>96929702
>instead of one comfy general, my trolling has created 4 generals, I have to actively troll constantly in order to push my worldview

You are a menace.

>>96929694
>Why are you so upset? Which of those idiot lines are yours?
Not me! I don't exist! I'm not your boogeyman and the fact that you collect my quotes... I mean fishfag's quotes... I mean, nobody said them... I mean...

Y-you were bullied!!!

>>96929698
No, 2e is not an OSR game and is off-topic in this thread for that reason. Hope this helps!

>>96929682
Lol, nice try lolcow.
Desuarchive cites the 1st osrg at 2015, and looking at said threads shows anons talking about 2e normally. Please, cease your brigading and get ontopic, or dont, id enjoy your absence.

>>96929727
Yes, it is OSR, and more intrinsically OSR than a lot of games you don't flip out over.

>>96929721
The ... tells me youre a 50-60 something. My granddad does that. What group kocked you out in the 90s for you to harbor this grudge? Its derailing the thread constantly.

>>96929438
Nobody is changing shit you retard, 2e has been off topic for years and nobody is moving the line on you, you're just a salty idiot retard who cannot accept that he is unwelcome somewhere.

>>96929771
>once again, demonstrably lying
Who? Who is supposed to believe you?

>>96929771
Lol no. Please stop derailing the thread & lying. No amount of pushing a narrative will convince people, and only you in this bubble has this incredibly narrow definition, and no amount of
>b-but muh screenshot from le 2005!
Sources backs you up.
So, please, get back on topic.

>>96929756
>Y- you're 60!
Not bad, but it doesn't quite make the cut. You can do better, fishfag. Meanwhile, I've added your ACKS shill bullshit, because frankly it's one of my favourite ones. We're at version 10, keep it coming.

>>96929844
Lmao. Youre at lolcow status now.
Not only did i never say anything about ACKS (which looks like a decent system btw, judges journals great) you think im someone else entirely. Youre in malicious derailing territory.

These are some pretty fantastic looking books.

>>96929897
Revised edition doesnt have "dragonslayers & proud of it" in it so its bot as good as OGs. What was your last canpaign in it like?

>>96929895
ACKS is pretty terrible. At first glance it looks like a lot of content, but the content is really poorly made and isn't designed for people, but robots.
There was a cross-system comparison, and ACKS was one of the worst, with the reviewer openly mocking how long and over-complicated every process was, and how poorly organized the material was.

>>96929919
Cool, disagree with that entirely.

>>96929897
>>96929913
Per the OP, 2nd edition is off-topic here. Please take this to the 2nd ed general.

>>96929913
Can't call the last one a "campaign" because it was just a brief one-shot adventure. Really generic, the players found a ruined village, tracked the footprints of the raiders to a cave system connected to the Underdark, and fought a whole lot of drow.

>>96929951
Thats your subjective loaded definition of OSR though, lolcow. Also youre derailing again. Plase remain ontopic

>>96929961
Sounds comfy. You eber run any drow cities? I wanted to try my hand at it with for Gold & glory.

>>96929895
>>96929919
It was a comparison of travel mechanics.

ACKS2 came out looking like a deliberate joke compared to the other games.

>>96930037
ACKS always looks and feels scammy.

>>96930071
It's mostly its fans that feel scammy.

>>96929727
Your retarded posts help no one.

>>96930418
Please refraim from posting off-topic nonsense and spamming the general with shitposts, thanks. >>>/b/

>>96930444
Then get going, retard

>>96930197
>Fishfag the movie
I assumed it'd just be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72D1Rnxdsg4

>>96929987
Aren't drow cities hyper-hostile? I think most non-drow would have an easier time surviving in Hell.

>>96929895
Someone not liking the fish story broke his brain so hard it ruined his butthole

Is this thread about OSR games or is it about fishfag? The content of posts suggests it should be renamed /ffg/ - fishfag general.

>>96930496
There are human slaves and evil non-drow allies within Erelhei-cinlu, so an adventuring party could skulk around in theory.

>>96929897
Sorry, but this edition is not part of the topic of this general. The current /2eg/ is here: >>96893030

>>96930533
It was several people making fun of his story, and that's increased over the years now. It's a self-escalating reaction, where the more upset he gets, the more reason people give him a reason to be upset.

>>96929951
I think you're going to discover that since you don't respect this board, this board is not going to respect you or anything you say.

>>96929919
>>96930037
>There was a cross-system comparison, and ACKS was one of the worst, with the reviewer openly mocking how long and over-complicated every process was, and how poorly organized the material was.
You mean this?

Your grasping at straws is really comically inept.

>>96930698
>seems like it would be good
>but isn't
That's why it feels scammy.

>>96930698
No one denies that a lot of effort was put into bloating out the system as much as it could be bloated out, but you can already see in that review that he's encountering some pretty immediate and obvious problems, like the system was never actually playtested.

When he sits down and actually tries to use the procedures, it's apparent how unwieldy and awful the whole thing is.

>>96929975
this is /osrg/ not r/OSR, reddit tourist nogames

>>96930733
>No one denies that a lot of effort was put into bloating out the system as much as it could be bloated out,
It wasn't. He ran out of stuff so he had to fill out the empty space with AI art.

>>96930733
Really hoping that people won't actually read the blog post, huh? That summary is his comment on the travel rules *after* trying them. He concludes that he doesn't like them because he doesn't want that type of gameplay – he just wants to use an OSR ruleset to play through modules he bought. Before the travel log he praises other aspects of the ACKS 2e rules, saying that everyone playing any OSR game should port one of the tables into his own game.
Anyone can see for himself here:
>https://rancourt.substack.com/p/a-survey-of-overland-travel

>>96930071
>funds raised for product
>product releases
>funds raised for new project
>product releases
yeah, thats a real, uh, "scam"
kinda like your tenuous grasp on what the word "shill" means

t. acksshill

>>96930778
He said nice things about every system. Clearly aiming not to shit on any system more than he had to, and hoping to sound unbiased.
But he also laid out just how bad ACKS is, and even concludes with explaining how the system doesn't really feel OSR because it wastes so much time generating random shit to sift through.

>>96930782
>game is shilled heavily to the point of getting banned on various websites
>despite reaching more than 6x its kickstarter goal, the money was insufficient and they had to cheap out on stuff like the art
>the game is a big bloated mess that was even confirmed to be deliberately bloated
Yeah, it does actually raise a lot of red flags.

>>96930894
Don't forget
>brosr try to advertise it
It's scammy

>>96930708
>He's now hallucinating words into existence

>>96930931
That's already rolled up into the first point.

>>96931045
Scammy's a word.Similar to "rapey," it usually means "okay, so it's not a scam, but I'm gonna act like it is anyway"

>>96931106
I'm getting the feeling you've been described as rapey before.

>>96931138
There are legit uses of both words, but on the internet, that's how it's usually done. Case in point: ACKS is """"scammy""""

>>96931153
It is scammy.
It's been banned for people trying to scam people into buying a bad bx clone.

>>96931179
See, you're using it correctly. "It's not a scam, but I'm going to pretend like it is anyway" presumably because you are mad.

>>96931153
Would you prefer outright for people to just say ACKS is a scam? Overpaying for a sub-quality product that's been sold on empty promises qualifies as a scam.
People have tried to sell it on sfuff like its domain/economy or mass combat rules, and they may be some of the worst examples of those category of rules I've ever encountered.
Even something like not making it clear that the books will contain AI art on the kickstarter helps qualify it as a scam. That's the sort of thing that deserves a prominent disclaimer.

>>96931232
I saw a post of someone MAD that they got tricked into looking into ACKS.
Not even buying it. Just wasting their time.

>>96931232
>Would you prefer outright for people to just say ACKS is a scam?
It would make it clearer that you're full of shit without the use of evasive language like that, yes

>>96931269
I've seen people feel scammed by it.
They were cheated and lied to.

>>96931269
ACKS is a scam, and the only thing full of shit is the idea that people have any reason to buy it.
Even in that travel review, the final point raises a pretty good question. If you're not going to just make things yourself, why would anyone skip over the thousands of pages of famous adventures available, and instead desire some incredibly generic generated material of questionable quality that's largely just an enormous time sink? It's almost like it was intentionally designed to produce lower quality material, and not even cheaply, quickly, or effectively. It's like they took the triangle of a good product, and asked "what if we just made it bad in all the categories?"

>>96931297
>I've seen people feel scammed by it.
The voices in your head aren't other people, we've been over this.

>>96931416
I swear it wasn't even that long ago. Like the last week.

>>96931501
Cool argument bro

>>96931259
>>96931297
>>96931501
>I said bad stuff about ACKS last week!
>this is proof that people hate ACKS
Next week: he points to his own horseshit in this thread as proof

>>96930855
Otnay hatway ehay aidsay ouyay isingeniuosday aggotfay.

Tell me how you run stealth procedures for non-thieves. I know it’s a often misunderstood mechanic, so I’d like to hear everyone’s opinion on the matter.

>>96932555
If you're not wearing heavy armor or badly encumbered or running, you are moving quietly and enemies get a normal 1-in-6 roll to hear you coming. If you're carrying big stacks of clanking metal or something that disqualifies you from moving quietly, they just hear you, and you can't get surprise.

Anyone can hide inside or behind or under something and remain unseen by a passing enemy, no roll is involved. If the enemy stops to search, they will find the players in one turn.

A thief's skills eliminate the roll to hear, and allow him to hide without any cover but the shadows.

>>96932555
Same as >>96932629 for me. Surprise is the basic stealth mechanic.

>>96932555
>Tell me how you run stealth procedures for non-thieves.
The surprise roll is the stealth procedure for non-Thieves and Thieves alike.

>>96932555
Carrying a torch or a lantern? 0 in 6 chance.

>>96933072
Only if lit and the encounter group have line of sight (no closed doors)

How is FMC for getting into OSR? Don't care too much about the politics, but I've stumbled upon it since it's free and has decent enough formatting. Anything I should look out for?

>>96933547
Everything is free on 4chan, Anon. FMC is what you would get if you took the original text, fed it to an LLM, and and asked it to paraphrase it. It keeps all the ambiguities, introduces some additional ones, and makes no effort to clarify what needs to be clarified.

If you want to get into the real OD&D, the best approach is OD&D itself + Greyharp + Compleat Chainmail.

Any tips for running this?

>>96933793
Off-topic here, read the OP. Assuming this is genuine and not trolling (big stretch, I know), try asking on /2eg/ >>96893030

>>96933793
I suggest you go to 2eg, which is full of knowledgeable 2nd ed fans, rather than here, since 2e is off-topic per our OP. Good luck.

>>96933832
>>96933840
Nice samefagging. Please remain ontopic and answwr my question

>>96933853
>Nice samefagging

>>96933832
>>96933840
That looks like it was made by a troll. Did you make it?
2e isn't popular enough by itself to have a persistent general. It's good for a one-of thread or being in the /osrg/, but not every single game needs its own general. Unless you want to also make a b/x general and a seperate 1e general?

>>96933853
Sorry, 2e is off-topic here.

>>96933871
This is the /osrg/. Are you saying OSR don't belong here?

>>96933868
>2e isn't popular enough by itself to have a persistent general
Yeah, because it's unadulterated dogshit for nogames.

Which is also why we don't want it here.

>>96933881
No, all OSR games belong here, it's just that 2e isn't OSR. Here are some basic readers on this topic:
>https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2022/10/blog-osr-module-o5-2e-is-still-not-old.html
>https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/03/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-iv.html

>>96933881
Oh no: OSR material is very welcome here. That's why 2e is off-topic, as it's always been.

>>96933793
Off-topic, go away

>>96933868
>get linked to a general for his supposedly favored game
>That looks like it was made by a troll
jej, the jokes write themselves

>>96933868
Been consistent attempts by a lolcow to redefine the definition of osr into ONLY games from 1974-1984. Its a contested definition dwsigned to oush an agenda that fits his narrative, ad well as excluding all retroclones. Just ignore the troll, lets talk about dark sun. Any tips for running it?

>>96933903
>brosr blogs
lol, keep that dumb shit to yourself, queer.

>>96933871
>>96933895
>>96933832
>>96933840
Why aren't you telling the guy making fishfag images to stop posting off-topic?

>>96933881
Yes they are. They only want thw thread to ne about 0e, 1e and BX. Just ignore them and keep talking.

>>96933832
>>96933911
>>96933840
Your retarded posts are off topic. 2e is OSR. Deal with it, faggot.

>>96933933
Because his images are relevant to the persistent troll infesting this general (you, to be precise) and mocking him is a pleasant and moral endeavor.

>>96934008
Dont feed the troll. Talk about dark sun. You ever run it?

>>96934008
No, sorry, that's incorrect. 2e is not OSR and does not belong in this general. Please take it elsewhere.

>>96933926
Read Conan.
If you haven't, that is, and you should have by now. Soak yourself in Howard's words, carry that spirit with you.
Even if you've read them, read some again.

Dark Sun isn't 1:1 Conan, but it's always good to go into a game with some fresh novels in you.
My favorite thing about Dark Sun is really just hating on Defilers. Everyone should hate them. Every person in your group should hate defilers, even if one of them is playing one.

Stonehell on the Borderlands Anon here - Wondering if anyone had any experience running KotB, specifically PCs wanting to do burglary within the keep?
I think if they remain quiet, seeing as it will be in the middle of the night there should be a pretty low chance of a Watch Patrol noiticing anything feels like I should just use a wandering monster 1/6 sort of mechanic?

>>96934021
No, fishfag, you've never run it, or any other game for that matter. I suppose if you keep asking yourself you might get an answer you don't expect, just by losing track of your own sockpuppets.

>>96933926
Dark Sun practically plays itself. You grab the box set, you read it, and you're good.

>>96934071
That seems reasonable. The emphasis in the text is on watching the walls, and then the keep entrance, rather than within. The real problem will be avoiding a sounding of the alarm once they start digging around in rooms inside.

>>96933713
Thanks for the recommendations. Did a quick search on those. Doesn't the Greyharp single Volume edition include everything?

>>96933923
Have you looked inside that thread?
Good thing is that it looks like at least one troll got all his posts deleted.

>>96934021
No, I would like to but I would have to learn how psionics work. It looks like a cool setting.
>>96934032
You and your stupid face is incorrect.
>>96934083
Nice projection, retard.

>>96934122
Well id lime to learn more, seems too dismissive. What sort of house rules do anons reccommend? Any good dungeons for the setting that exist?

You guys looked at Birthright?

>>96934071
Within the Keep Itself, the townspeople are generally law-abiding and honest. Boorishness and Ill manners will be frowned upon. If any member of a party should be caught In a criminal act, the alarm will be sounded Instantly. Citizens will try to prevent the escape of any lawbreakers (without sacrificing their lives) until the guard arrives In 1-2 turns. If met with resistance, the guard will not hesitate to use force, even killing If they must. Those offenders taken prisoner will be locked In the dungeons under the Keep and punished for their crimes.

>>96934213
Probably a better domain game than ACKS.

>>96934213
Its good. I like its low magic premise. You could make a thing about having less access to MUs and requiring workarounds to problems usually reserved for spells.

>>96934209
Freedom is good. Most groups start with Freedom.

>>96934263
It's a lot more fun. You can really do big things and the game is built around them.

>>96934306
Im honestly thinking of adapting the slavelords series to dark sun. Could be a blast.

>>96934213
Yeah, but I found it very poor and put it away almost immediately.

>>96934367
It fits. Might need to retool A2 a lot, but it's also the one that really needs to be retooled.

>>96934488
Did the same to your mom.

>>96934367
I've always wanted to play those.

Maybe I'll settle for running them.

>>96934247
Gee thanks, I have read the module a few dozen times...
Nothing there describes who would be up in the middle of the night (I'm thinking basically no-one), or if the Cpt. or Cpl. of the watch do any patrolling after hours.
>>96934151
I'm thinking rolling for encounters every turn, a 1/6 will net a roll on my Keep encounter table for someone to pass by along the street (drunk, patrolman, gang of youths etc).
The apartment will probably be empty, as the Priest is often away on "Church Business".
Hoping to run this as a play by post in between sessions for the Thief PC who couldn't make it to last session.

>>96928906
Fuck off with that tired lie. It was OSR before they even made up the name OSR.

>>96933793
Ignore the metaplot, which is kill the Dragon of Athas, kill the sorcerer-king of Tyr, if you want. The idea behind that was supposedly to give the PCs a refuge free from the influence of the sorcerer-kings but you don't need that and in a lot of ways it makes the game worse. My player's PC's were happily running around Tyr or the deserts around Tyr and Kalak was alive and well because the influence of the kings doesn't extend all that far past their city walls.

The stable system, have one active PC and three more who level up slowly in the background that you can swap between between adventures, doesn't work well. It's a nice idea but implemented poorly. You can end up with PCs at all sort of different levels and you know how annoying it is having PCs at different levels.

Don't be astounded by the "it goes up to 20" gimmick of ability scores. A DS fighter or gladiator character should mog a non-DS fighter in a stand up toe to toe fight but that just means that all the DS monsters just have to be that much harder to begin with. You don't actually have a more powerful character relative to the setting, just more powerful compared to a different setting. The effect is less for wizards where power comes from spells and you don't get a lot of bonuses for higher Int. The effect is greater for psionicists where chance to succeed and number of power points both increase with higher ability scores.

2e psionics is basically another type of magic but it's better than 1e psionics. It's a pre-cursor to sorcerer in DND 3 with in that you're casting any known spell than having to memorise, only without the edginess inherent in with patrons so fewer edgelords. Every PC getting a psionic power can be really swingy because some of the wild talent rolls are good, and others not so good, but that's not all that different to rolling ability scores.

>>96933910
>2e is off-topic, as it's always been
My screen caps are all older than yours so cut the crap.
As a bonus, one of the OP is ACK edition.
Another OP specifically asks which AD&D is best.
It's not like you're just expressing your bad taste and trying to justify by claiming "it's my opinion and opinion's are never wrong", you're plain and simply totally objectively wrong.

>>96935977
Bullshit. Total bullshit. You clearly photoshopped those lies. You also hacked the archive. And messed with people's memories. And are just wrong wrong wrong WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Im thinking about a semi-gonzo setting where God is an alien and His followers are sci-fi Judge Dredd types, but with a twist: They are almost all good people and genuinely care about humanity

>>96936304
Pictured is a knife given to human refugees when traveling through Hell dimensions to reach the promised lands.
One knife is given for every four persons in a group. Unfortunately, the weapons are mass-produced and flimsy. While it IS possible to kill a devil with such a blade, its best used as a means of intimidation or to buy time until Cleric Patrolmen arrive.

>>96936304
>>96936380
Is this the Sovlfvl K1N0 that is Darkbad?

>>96936423
I like Tyranitar but not THAT much... Pssh...

OK one more then Ill stop
>Gashanoko Devil: Incorrigible lesser hellspawn
>Resembles a squat (5' tall), muscular lizardman with two sets of jaws. One hand is replaced with a proboscis stinger, which they make good use of when tormenting mortals.
>AC = 3 [17]
>HD = 4 (18HP)
>Attacks = 1x bite (1d4), 1 x stinger (1d10)
>THAC0 = 16 [+3]
>Movement = 60' (20')
>Saving Throws: D12 W13 P14 B15 S16 (2)
>Morale = 10
>Alignment = Chaotic
>XP = 75
>Number Appearing = 2d4 (4d4) -> For every 4 Devils, one is a Jaguar-headed Devil Lord with maximum Hit Points and ability to GATE.
>INFERNAL: Ignores 1d4 damage from mundane weapons
>STINGER: Reanimates any humanoid killed by this weapon as a zombie minion in 3 days
>GATE: 1-in-3 Devils can summon another Gashanoko Devil once per day

>>96936380
>16% chance it breaks
They got Temu in your setting?

Do you make your players draw maps, and if so, do you use battle maps for combat, or theater of the mind? I like the idea of player mapping but don't know how that would work in combat unless you either have your own battle map prepared (which I feel defeats the point of player mapping) or just do away with battle maps altogether.

>>96933713
>If you want to get into the real OD&D, the best approach is OD&D itself + Greyharp + Compleat Chainmail.
This doesn't make much sense. Greyharp is a reformat of OD&D (with some missing saving throw tables), if you have OD&D itself you don't need it.

>>96936986
Of course the players have to map if they want a map, yes. In a large or otherwise complicated battle I draw out the battle map on a dry-erase board. I don't see how this defeats the point of player mapping?

>>96936986
>Do you make your players draw maps,
If they want to survive, that's pretty much compulsory.

>do you use battle maps for combat, or theater of the mind?
I sketch the area on a dry erase mat and use beer corks for minis.

>I like the idea of player mapping but don't know how that would work in combat
Huh? You're mixing up two different activities.

>unless you either have your own battle map prepared
Not sure what you mean by "battle map" and why you have to prepare it in advance, honestly.

Sounds like you might be overthinking something about this.

>>96936304
>>96936380
>>96936488
>>96936679
Wowzer! Do you have a Kickstarter?

>>96937040
>Greyharp is a reformat of OD&D
That's pretty much what FMC is as well. Modulo the paraphrasing that is just for copyright purposes and not to improve comprehensibility.

>>96938389
Yeah, it's under "autarch" ;)

I'm generally not a fan of proficiencies, but it looks my AD&D / Gamma World campaign might go Traveller and I'm looking for ways to "D&Dify" Traveller, and one needs proficiencies for that. At least I don't know how I would handle stuff like Piloting, Navigating, Engineering, and so on.

I've looked at how non-weapon proficiencies are done in late stage AD&D and BECMI, and found them to be really rather poorly designed.

The ACKS ones are not great (there's too many doing too many things), but I feel they're a better reference point for what I want to do.

My question is: Does ACKS have guidelines for new custom proficiencies? I see there's a section on custom powers for custom classes, but I'm looking for something more generic that can apply to general proficiencies instead. Stuff that all (or most) classes would be able to take.

>>96938491
A power is basically equivalent to a proficiency when you look into it.
At the end of the day you have to just eyeball it a bit really

>>96938491
>>96938495
Sorry, deleted because I wanted to repost (early morning here and a few typos). I hoped I wouldn't get ninja'd.

Here's the fixed question:

>I'm generally not a fan of proficiencies, but it looks my AD&D / Gamma World campaign might go Traveller and I'm looking for ways to "D&Dify" Traveller, and one needs proficiencies for that. At least I don't know how I would handle stuff like Piloting, Navigating, or Engineering, otherwise.

>I've looked at how non-weapon proficiencies are done in late stage AD&D and BECMI (Rules Cyclopedia), and found them to be really rather poorly designed.

>The ACKS ones are not great (there's too many doing too many things), but I feel they're a better reference point for what I want to do.

>My question is: Does ACKS have guidelines for new custom proficiencies? I see there's a section on custom powers for custom classes, but I'm looking for something more generic that can apply to general proficiencies instead. Stuff that all (or most) classes would be able to take.

>>96938495
>A power is basically equivalent to a proficiency when you look into it.
>At the end of the day you have to just eyeball it a bit really
I see there's guidelines for custom class powers, but it's all about bonuses to saving throws, initiative, surprise, hit rolls, damage. And then spell-like abilities.

I was looking for something more along the lines of, what's a the right + on 1d6 to give for more skill-like activities like finding room traps or secret doors, or foraging, or hunting? I think that would give the right ballpark for how to implement Piloting, Engineering, Navigation, and so on.

>>96938511
>>96938525
For instance, I see that the proficiencies in picrel give a total bonus of about +2 in 6 or +3 in 6 spread over three different activities.

That's a bit too complex for me, so I won't be using those out of the box. I find it annoying to have to remember lists of proficiencies with ambiguous names, each of which gives three different bonuses to different activities, so I'm not going to use the ACKS system out of the box. However, I do find the fact that ACKS is systematic about it to provide a decent reference point.

So it looks like, if I put all the bonus in one activity only, a decent ballpark might be +2 in 6 for one activity for one proficiency.

If that's the case, that would be the equivalent of two or three ranks in Traveller, since Traveller uses 2d6 rolls for skills.

So a Traveller character with a total of 6 ranks spread around various skills would have the equivalent of what, about 2 or 3 ACKS proficiencies?

That's not much. It's less than what 0th level porters get in ACKS!

(The goal is to either come up with a rule for the cost for a D&D PC to learn e.g. Piloting, or coming up with D&D-like classes to use in place of Traveller careers.)

>>96938450
Right, but anon didn't suggest FMC so I'm not sure how that's relevant in this case. Personally I'd also never recommend FMC due to the retarded anti-Gygax/Arneson screed in it.

>>96938511
>I'm generally not a fan of proficiencies, but it looks my AD&D / Gamma World campaign might go Traveller and I'm looking for ways to "D&Dify" Traveller
I'm not sure I understand this. Are you effectively going to be running D&D but on a 2d6 basis? Or Traveller but with a D&D gameplay loop? Here: >>96938631 you suggest D&D-like classes, and at that point, why even use Traveller at all? If it'll just be switching 1d6 and 1d20 rolls for 2d6 as above, what's the point of that?

>>96938631
>So a Traveller character with a total of 6 ranks spread around various skills would have the equivalent of what, about 2 or 3 ACKS proficiencies?
>That's not much. It's less than what 0th level porters get in ACKS!
This is a known problem in classic Traveller. This is hardly the thread to discuss it in detail, but even a skill level that's very hard to obtain via the lifepaths makes you barely better than a rando in many cases. (In other cases you need one rank to even be allowed to try, like most Thief skills in D&D.) Add to this that character advancement during play is largely a pipe dream in Traveller, and, well, there's a reason the game never got close to rivalling D&D in popularity even though most early D&D players were trekkies.

>>96939269
NTA
>Are you effectively going to be running D&D but on a 2d6 basis?
Sounds like it's the other way around. He wants to add Traveller stuff to a D&D campaign, like he's already done for Gamma World. So he's having his campaign expanding into space, and he needs rules for how D&D characters can learn to pilot spaceships, for example. Or if they are on another planet and a player wants to create a new PC, what D&D stats that character needs to have.

It's trivial to do if you use ACKS. You just expand the list of proficiencies to include the ones needed to do sci-fi stuff, and let PCs learn them per the normal rules and NPC Hirelings can get those proficiencies. So they could hire a Pilot hireling, which is just a 0th level character with the Piloting skill to a reasonable rank.

The problem is that D&D does not have proficiencies. It does have skills, although it doesn't call them that, e.g. listening at doors, finding secret doors, avoiding surprise can all he understood as skill checks on a d6.

He just needs to add something like the ACKS proficiencies to D&D, doesn't have to be exactly the ACKS ones, and he's done. So a PC would get the option to either have +1 or +2 on finding secret doors (up from 1 in 6), or a similar bonus on piloting starships (up from zero).

>>96939690
Exactly. You explained it better than I did, thanks.

For Gamma World I'm using Mutant Future / Mutants and Mazes. I need to make the Mutants and Mazes of Traveller.

>>96939327
>even a skill level that's very hard to obtain via the lifepaths makes you barely better than a rando in many cases
I've never actually played Traveller, but that's the conclusion I've come to through my little calculation above. Glad this matches the experience of those who actually play it.

The nice thing is that personal combat is trivial to port over to D&D: The core rules are basically copied from Chainmail, so you can add the Traveller weapons to D&D, and read the modifiers for range and armour as modifiers on a d20 roll. The even simpler thing to do in my case is to use the stats from Gamma World.

>>96939690
Oh, I get it! I should probably have figured that out on my own, kek.

I think your solution makes a lot of sense for ACKS, but for AD&D I might prefer something less proficiency-based at all. IIRC Stars Without Number just decides that each charcter class corresponds to some shipboard role and that seems to be the easiest way to handle it, possibly requiring the characters to train to become "space-certified" in their roles or whatnot before being able to do them.

>>96939754
Yeah, for weapon combat I think you're right to just use Gamma World, it's not like you'll need even more rules for lasers and *need* to hit the books with Traveller.

>>96939819
>for AD&D I might prefer something less proficiency-based at all.
Yeah, I'm not using proficiencies right now, I'm extremely reluctant to introduce them, and I will only do it if
>(a) my players decide to take that spaceship they might find in a few sessions at the bottom of a dungeon
and
>(b) I don't find a better alternative.
I would never use them in a vanilla D&D game, but if it's the price to expand the campaign into space, I'll pay it.

>Stars Without Number just decides that each charcter class corresponds to some shipboard role
I really don't like SWN, and as far as I'm concerned that solution is even worse than my current one of adding a slimmed down version of ACKS proficiencies.

But if anybody has any idea that doesn't come from Kevin Crawford I'm all ears.

>>96939857
I mean, I can't blame you for not liking SWN, that particular rule just seems really simple.

Another way to think about this might be, how are they going to learn the proficiencies if they just find a spaceship at the bottom of the dungeon? It seems like they wouldn't be able to find local trainers for e.g. spaceship piloting, right? So realistically, either you'd have to let them fly the spaceship as amateurs, or there'd need to be like a speedlearning device onboard the ship that can inject the appropriate knowledge into their brains or something. And functionally both of those options work out to the same thing in terms of rules as far as I can see: the PCs can just fly the ship and you don't really need to add a skill system. I'm not sure that e.g. rolling to navigate successfully will actually add anything to gameplay compared to just going where you want and maybe having some procedure for getting lost analogous to the wilderness hexcrawling one.

Or is it that you want to differentiate the PCs so that they get defined roles onboard? In that case you could have the players each choose what skill to get out of the autolearner, or you could just key the ship functions to different abilities (although admittedly they'd probably all be Dex- or Int-based so this isn't the best option).

>>96939922
Another way to think about this might be, how are they going to learn the proficiencies if they just find a spaceship at the bottom of the dungeon? It seems like they wouldn't be able to find local trainers for e.g. spaceship piloting, right?
Good question. I'd rather avoid dei ex machina like autolearner because they're one-time fixes and because it would feel like shaking the campaign at its roots. I prefer things to feel more gradual and organic.

If they show a great interest in the starship and getting it to work, and invest the appropriate amount of time and Comprehend Languages into reading the on-board computer, I'd allow them to fly the spaceship into space with zero skill in Piloting and Navigator. Greatly increased chance of misjumps, which is not a huge deal since they don't have a starmap and have no idea where to travel to anyway, so the first jump might as well be random.

Then, IF that happens, once they reach a starport, I will let them hire specialists, and give them a few proficiency points each, that they can use to get +1 bonuses on either traditional D&D stuff like finding secret doors or Traveller skills. The first would be automatic, the others they'll need a trainer for.

We're talking weeks before they can actually get into space with zero skill and months before any existing PC can actually get any points in piloting spaceships. And I'm using 1:1 time for the most part, so the campaign will morph slowly into its new shape. (Unless I decide to do a time skip, which is always an option. But no need to decide on that now.)

>>96940051
>I prefer things to feel more gradual and organic.
That's fair. I guess my root concern is, what does adding skills actually contribute to gameplay, besides verisimilitude? This:

>I'd allow them to fly the spaceship into space with zero skill in Piloting and Navigator. Greatly increased chance of misjumps, which is not a huge deal since they don't have a starmap and have no idea where to travel to anyway, so the first jump might as well be random.
>Then, IF that happens, once they reach a starport, I will let them hire specialists
sounds like it might just lead to them fucking around and wasting time jumping into empty space until the ship runs out of fuel? Or are you envisioning a situation where any jump will end at *some* kind of meaningful destination and it just might not be the one you wanted?

Obviously this is ultimately a case of personal taste, so maybe I'm just talking at cross purposes to you here, but for my part I'd want to avoid this kind of fumbly situation by default, and would only put it in if I had some idea in advance for how to make it interesting and fun at the table. But then, I tend to prioritize tight gameplay over a fully verisimilitudinous milieu.

Hey anons
Do you recommend getting into Shadowdark?
our group is a bit tired of current 5e direction and are interested also we think it looks cool AF
PS
crosspost
what's up with two generals?

>>96940133
>what does adding skills actually contribute to gameplay, besides verisimilitude
I don't care about verisimilitude. I just need rules for running spaceship operations and I think the traveller ones work very well because they give a system that's 90% procedural, only the Patron shit requires you to make things up.

>it might just lead to them fucking around and wasting time jumping into empty space until the ship runs out of fuel?
It's a risk I'm willing to take. The players will be informed and the dice will decide.

>it might just lead to them fucking around and wasting time jumping into empty space until the ship runs out of fuel?
Never! They do have ways to deal with it if it comes up: Astral travel (spells or psionics), reach a starport, say "if you save my buddies you can have the spaceship for free". Done.

>would only put it in if I had some idea in advance for how to make it interesting and fun at the table
I think it would be fun for the players to know the risks involve and plan for contingencies. They might even come up with better ideas than mine for how to deal with a misjump. Mid to high level D&D characters can be very resourceful.

>>96940178
Hi :)
No.
Try >>96829321 if you want to earnestly discuss it. Low traction here.

>>96940178
Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming this is good faith.

>Do you recommend getting into Shadowdark?
No. Most people here loath it and it's off-topic here. If you're dead set on Shadowdark, the /nsrg/ thread has people who will help you with it: >>96829321

If you want to know what we actually recommend here, the n00b guides in the OP give instructions on how to get started with B/X:
>n00b DM's Guide
https://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B
>n00b Player's Handbook
https://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0

>what's up with two generals?
A troll who has been trying to topic slide /osrg/ for a few years. It's a long story. If you want to recognise which of the two is the real one, follow the pastebin
http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128
and the "first decade" specification, that we've had in place since 2019 for 750 threads and counting.

>>96940234
>assuming this is good faith
It's obviously not.

>Giving you the benefit of the doubt
Stop chomping bait.

>>96940239
In this case, it was an excellent opportunity to underline how we've had the "first decade" specification non-stop for 750 threads since 2019, using always the same pastebin. So why not. Better make this things clear and transparent periodically for the archives and the janitors.

>>96940234
what the fuck are talking about?
this post reads like legit schizoposting
>>96940212
well it seems like you boys don't know what osr is

>>96940294
>no counterargument, just "schizoposting"
Proof that the facts in that post are all true and you're unable to deny them:

/osrg/ has had "first decade" in the OP non-stop for over 750 threads since 2019.

>>96940317
do you know not what schizophrenia is?
how the fuck is anyone supposed to "counterargument" it?
like you straight up started going about some 750 threads for 6000 years of hebrew sins or something like the hobo who is bothering normies downtown would say

>>96940364
>you straight up started going about some 750 threads for 6000 years
750 threads for 6 years, non-stop. Here's the proof, you can check for yourself.
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/subject/osrg/text/first%20decade/

>>96940250
>>96940317
How the fuck are you stupid enough not to realize that Fishfag posted that solely so he could post this >>96940343 in the troll thread?
DON'T. SWALLOW. BAIT.
Don't engage with it. Don't "assume good faith". Knock it the fuck off.

>>96940380
>John 3:29 amen brothers for the aliens are the fathers of our sins and gojira is their rightful daughter as preached in the 750 magic number threads for 6 years as 6 is the number of our lord Nicholas Cage blessed be his name

fuck off schizo what the fuck are you even talking about

>>96940203
Yeah, fair enough. I kind of suspected we were on slightly different planes with this stuff.

Hope your game works out well, Anon!

>>96939327
>t even a skill level that's very hard to obtain via the lifepaths makes you barely better than a rando in many cases.
That sounds like a referee issue based on my experience with CT

>>96942065
>Hope your game works out well, Anon!
Thanks!

>>96940317
Evidence doesn't work on trolls. They're just going to spam bullshit until the reasonable people get frustrated and leave, allowing them to declare some sort of hollow victory.

Exciting update on Melan's blog,
https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2025/11/blog-year-nine-off-year.html
some interesting stuff. Here's my summary to start discussion if you're interested.

>City of the Ape-Men
A new adventure/setting by Melan. Looks like it might be his take on X1?

>He reports progress on Echoes From Fomalhaut issue #14.

>Gamemaster’s Guidelines Beyond Fomalhaut.
For OSRIC, a primer for running campaigns in the CAG style. Will include not only a primer and DM advice, but also optional rules, how to run city adventures, rules for mass combat, domain play, new monsters, new treasures.

>The Four Dooms of Thisium
"a low-level sandbox campaign"

>The top three winners of the Adventure Site Contest
will have their adventures translated into English. The contest was in Hungarian, and those adventures have already been published in the original language.

>Erillion, Land of Adventure and the Fomalhaut Boxed Set are lagging a bit behind given all the other projects.

>There will be some more new modules published by EMDT.

>Fight On! will be "renewed".

>>96943282
>Fight On! will be "renewed".

So fishfag's incessant pointing to this thread (https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96569835/#q96584636) as proof of ACKS' mercantile system being broken made me curious, so I went through the rules and tried to see if caravans are really not feasible as written.
Anyone more knowledgeable about the rules, feel free to point out any errors on my part.

For my simple example I calculated the profit for one wagon load of grain and vegetables, as profit looks like it scales linearly with the number of wagons, and grain has the smallest profit margin, so we receive something like a lower limit for profit. I did not bother with proficiencies or anything else. I also didn't bother with random rolls, as all of the involved rolls have the same chance to be in or against our favor.
The first error in the linked post seems to be the way OP modified demand because of trade routes between markets, as he missed that markets need to be within each other's range of trade.
For a small farming community (Market Class VI) that's only 24 miles over land, just a day's travel on foot. Of course it ultimately depends on the actual set up of locations on the map, but I'd argue there can easily be a bunch of farming communities out of range of a larger market. By the rules, the most profit can be made by trading from a Class VI or V market, to a Class II or I market,
so that's what we'll be doing (Purchase in a Class VI and sell in a Class II market, let's say 36 miles away).

>>96943491
We only need the difference in demand modifier, so for simplicity's sake we'll assume environmental modifiers other than the communities' ages are the same (rivers, terrain), as they're quite close to each other.
The farming community of 500 people is younger than a 100 years, the large city of 75000 older than a 1000, so the difference in demand is 3 points in our favor.
The difference could be more if the city was older, or the farming community was in especially fertile land, the latter gets determined by a random roll when establishing the setting.
I think this is what OP alludes to with the 33d6 rolls per month per location, although it needs to be done only once when creating the setting. As it's a random roll, we'll assume it's a non-factor, although scouting for a better deal would of course be prudent.
For our gross income we also need the difference in market prices of grain. Buying in a Class VI is one step cheaper, selling in a Class II earns one step more. We can also buy during harvest or sell in the sowing season to increase our profit, one of which I'll assume we'll be doing. The demand modifier factors into the price the same way, so another 3 points. Random fluctuations in the market get determined with a roll of 4d4-10, result are steps up or down, but we won't bother. (This is done roughly monthly for a market, but only when buying or selling a specific good, so I think this is what OP conflates rolling the demand modifiers with.)
In total, we trade 6 steps in our favor, each step is 0.01 GP for grain, so 0.06 GP per stone of grain. 640 stone in a wagon means 38.4 GP of income from selling.

>>96943502
Additional costs are: toll cost: 1.28 GP, supplies for 4 horses on the road: around 2.28 per day, stabling/pasture for the horses during purchasing/selling: 0.5 GP per day, paying workers for cargo handling: 0.64 GP.

Purchasing takes 13 days, selling takes 11 days, travel time is 6 days. In total, the trip takes 30 days, and final profit is 10.77 GP, on the higher end of a meager income according to ACKS.

Mind you, this is without scouting for especially good deals, without trying to negotiate prices, without any proficiencies that might help, trading the good with the lowest profit margin. As this is basically all of the costs accounted for, but with a way higher earning potential trading more profitable goods, I could easily see someone make a lucrative income trading stuff (not on dungeoneering level, though).
So I'd say the rules accomplish what they set out to do (certainly not "utterly broken"), and in terms of complexity at the table, it's around two throws per transaction (market fluctuation, optional price negotiations), not too much. I don't think they're broken, and I can see how someone might call them boring, but there are suggestions for shenanigans during the process, like smuggling and stealing back sold goods, to make it more exciting if you want.
Thanks for reading my blog post, you can now call me a shill.

>>96943510
Neat, thanks anon

>>96943491
>>96943502
>>96943510
Great work, unfortunately you're using logic to try and deal with someone who is starting from a fundamentally illogical position.
His thesis isn't "I've noticed that there's these flaws, X, Y, Z, from this I can conclude that ACKS isn't particularly well designed.", it's "ACKS AM MADE OF POOPY STINKY YUCK YUCK, TIME TO FIND EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP."
And before anyone says Capitalizing the latter is strawmanning, no, he does come into these threads and basically scream at people like a homeless person hollering about the end times, so it's an accurate depiction.

>>96943282
Hell yeah. Thanks for the update, anon. I'm starting up a campaign that's about 75% his stuff, so I'm pretty excited to get more of it.

>>96943282
I'm stoked for Ape-Men, but I think the Guidelines are what have the chance to make a real, lasting impact. Melan is one of the greats of OSR design, arguably THE greatest, and a refereeing guide written by him has the potential to stand next to the DMG as a peer, which I don't think is true of anyone else writing RPG material today.

Also, Fight On! has already been renewed; they released issue 16 in February this year.

>>96943491
>>96943502
>>96943510
You mean Fishfag is a retard who didn't bother to understand the rules of the game he's brigading against for political reasons?! I'm fucking shocked.

Nice work though, Anon. I'm afraid I agree with >>96943593 that it will do nothing to stem the flood of fishfaggotry, but this is useful to be able to point to if anyone else shows signs of actually believing his deranged mewling.

>>96943282
Re: Melan's political notes:

The state of Qin conquered the state of Chu, and the king of Qin, having thus unified all the lands, declared himself first Emperor under Heaven.

The men of Chu were recalcitrant. They refused to pay their taxes; they ignored the harsh laws of Qin and held to their own native laws.

After thirteen years, Chu rebelled. The Qin Dynasty was overthrown, and the emperor cast down.

When these two great states had destroyed each other, the king of the small state of Han stepped into the gap.

Since no one had the strength to resist any longer, he unified the kingdoms once more, and was declared emperor.

Because he was tolerant, the peasants thrived. Because the peasants thrived, the empire became strong. Because the empire became strong, there were three hundred years of peace.

>>96938631
>I see that the proficiencies in picrel give a total bonus of about +2 in 6 or +3 in 6 spread over three different activities.
The reason for this is that one proficiency is considered equivalent to one Thief skill for the purpose of custom classes. If you only made a proficiency equal to a +1 in 6 to one activity, it would be too weak.

>>96943593
>>96943866
Thanks, I still hope it helps to refute some of the idiot's talking points, he made me waste time looking up rules for a game I don't even play just to prove him wrong.

>>96943491
>The first error in the linked post seems to be the way OP modified demand because of trade routes between markets, as he missed that markets need to be within each other's range of trade.
This is mentioned in that post though. Why'd you lie?

>>96943593
>And before anyone says Capitalizing the latter is strawmanning, no, let me strawman that too
Wew lad.
I don't care about the autistic shitflinging but this is some painfully bad gayopping. At least try varying your typing styles between posts.

>>96940416
>I'll pretend to be retarded!
Kay

>>96945320
No it's not. You're just retarded. >>96945379
Fishfag absolutely is stuck with "peepeepoopoo" replies, thodesu

Someone give me some pointers on describing hexcrawling. I'm unsure on how to best convey the environment to the players. I'm also not sure on how to give the players choices when traversing 6 mile hexes, how do I make sure that they know what terrain the nearby hexes are so they are not just aimlessly walking around?

>>96946312
GFCs DND hewcrawlchad

>>96946312
>I'm unsure on how to best convey the environment to the players.
"You're in a forest hex".

>I'm also not sure on how to give the players choices when traversing 6 mile hexes
"Where do you want to go?"

>how do I make sure that they know what terrain the nearby hexes are
You don't. The horizon distance from a six feet elevation is three miles, so they normally can't see nearby hexes.

That of course depends on relative elevations: You can see mountain ranges from the ground, and vice versa. So they could see a mountain range even from a few hexes away, if the weather is good.

Horizon distance calculator (ballparking is fine, no need to get anal).
https://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm


>so they are not just aimlessly walking around?
Not your problem as the DM to solve. That's your players' problem.
E.g. if they climb a tree or a tower or cast levitation, they could have a look at the terrain around them.

>>96946312
1. Google check some pictures for every type of terrain included in your game. Take a good look to some of them and start describing them to yourself aloud before your next game.
2. If it's open ground feel free to let them know which kind of hexes are surrounding them, like "there a mountain right behind you, plains all around except for a forest on your distant left".
2. Something with a vantage point like hills or mountains give them a better picture.
3. Crossing something dense like a forest or swamp break the view and isolate them to the hex itself.
4. Can't get lost on road or "okay" trails.
5. As long as there's a road there's a sign at crossroads. It's not true for trails, even trails departing from a road.
6. Populate them all: hexes and roads. This is the hardest part and I was loking for a nice ressource myself, be it book or article. Ideally I'm looking for a solid number of random tables so at least one per terrain type.

>>96946429
>Not your problem as the DM to solve. That's your players' problem.

But giving players the option to make a choice based on information is good, non?

In a dungeon you don't just go "there are two paths, do you choose one or the other?" You would describe which way the corridors turn and eventual sounds and smells to let the players make an informed decision?

>>96946479
I'm >>96946475 and oui mon ami, more informations is more informed gameplay. I did read anon's post regarding 3 miles horizon and at first I was like "oh I did it all wrong!". But then I realized if I was to play like that, more stressfull hexes like dark forest and swamps would be nothing special. I don't want a comfy grassfield or rolling hills to turn into a maze. Then I realize the best part of the game is looking at your players making informed decisions. Then I realized most of my gameplay is abstracted bullshit anyway. I'm not judging, more power to anon, but we have different playstyle.

>>96946479
NTA, but I let players know of adjacent mountain hexes (since they would be visible), and that's all. Otherwise, well, you're exploring an unknown wilderness: why would you just "know" everything in the many miles surrounding you in all directions? If you're headed somewhere, you have a sense of a goal. Otherwise, you're just exploring (which is fine), and one direction is as good as another.

>In a dungeon you don't just go "there are two paths, do you choose one or the other?"

If both appear the same and both run off into the darkness, that's exactly what I say. How would they know otherwise? If there's a tell or differentiation, sure, the players receive that, but there's not always a tell considering the short range of available light.

>>96945320
No, the anon in the archive posts explicitly gets it wrong, as he describes when asked for further explanation (https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96569835/#q96584858).
It seems like you need assistance to understand this, so I'm gonna spoon-feed you. Have the relevant rules paragraph in ACKS as well.

>>96946312
For my part (LBBfag) I play it mostly like a board game: the players have a blank hexmap they move on, they enter a hex, if it's not forest or some other obfuscated environment I tell them what the adjacent hexes are (or more if they're in mountains; I don't care to be extremely detailed so I just go with a two-hex radius for mountains and three for snow-capped mountains which is easy for me to put into my maps) and whether they find anything in the hex at the end of the day I roll encounters. I keep the descriptive prose pretty minimal, a sentence or two.

>>96946624
See, this is why I stopped doing effort posts to disprove Fishfags bullshit personally.
You can takee anything he says and calmly write at the top opf it "The most bad faith interpretation of the RAW as read by a fucking moron." and knock off early.
Him claiming that you, as DM, are going to sit there and roll 6 gorillion trade % dice while the players calmly wait for you to generate the city, rather than it being one roll when they ask "So we've got a bunch of furs, does this city need furs" was proof enough of that.

>>96946838
Cool take. After reading Rancourt's substack I went with hexcrawl as boardgame (0D&D approach) too. Around two sentences makes for a fine description too as "it's a forest" is a bit bland to me but you can't keep reinventing every single forest hex either.

However after few games I found the experience contrastingly lacking when compared to dungeon crawling and town socialization. At this point I'm looking at a good collection of random tables to generates some events, landmarks and adventure seeds OR tracking a curated collection of one page dungeons to place on the map myself.

>>96946624
NTA, and I have no dog in your fight so please don't get weird, but I have no idea what you're trying to say, especially if that is you spoonfeeding.

>>96946479
>But giving players the option to make a choice based on information is good, non?
You don't need to GIVE them the option. They already have it, they just have to use it.
"You're in a thick forest, you can't see the terrain around."
"The Thief will climb the tallest tree" or "The MU will cast Levitate".
At that point, you describe the hexes around them.

And then it can become a habit if they tell you they always do that, no need to do it every single time.

But knowing HOW they do things is important for stuff like random encounters: A levitating MU above the canopy is much more conspicuous than a Thief perched on a tree top.

>>96946479
Also, 95% of the times characters have a general idea of where they want to go and how to get there, even if they've never been there before.

E.g. They know that the place is along a river, or at the feet of a mountain they know the description of and so they should be able to recognise from a distance, they're following a road, and so on. Often they even have a rough map. So knowing the terrain around, while useful, isn't always THAT necessary. If they know they have to get through a forest travelling straight north, they'll just keep going north until they're out of the forest.

In the remaining 5% of the cases in which they're exploring completely unknown territory, making things a bit harder is not a bad thing IMHO.

>>96943331
Such a fantastic magazine. Will definitely buy more.

>>96947112
>>96947128
I've mapped out the hexes surrounding Stonehell for my game, but haven't populated them with features yet beyond a smaller dungeon and a few settlements. GFC uses an 1-in-X chance for discovering features, even for hexes that have been previously traveled through without finding anything (which makes sense, hexes are big and you're not combing through them when traveling). I need to put together a regionally appropriate table of features and assign probabilities.

>>96947128
Looks to me you're talking about hexcrawl as a travelling system wheras anon is speaking of hexcrawl as an exploration tool. It's not the same approach so you two should use a different system.

>>96947112
Information can be obvious or obfuscated or hidden.
You need the obvious for players to make any decision, plain and simple. Then you can reward players that engage with the universe or overcame a challenge with obfuscated informations. Then you can reward players with secret informations for time or odd rolls.

In your example the information is rightfully obfuscated because you're in a forest, so you overcome that challenge by going above the treeline. But anon was confused because he was replying to a post where information was obfuscated even in a grassland hex. At this point I think choosing for information to be obvious because it's open ground or obfuscated because real world horizon is three miles away is a DM choice.

>>96947128
>>96947112
>>96946838
>>96946564
>>96946475
Thank you all for the tips.

I've decided to supply my players with a crude map of the starting area with some things to go off.
It includes a landmark (the broken rock) and they'll get some additional verbal guidance from an NPC to better understand the map.

>>96947393
Oops forgot the map

>>96947400
I'll be cockier and make a NPC describes this very map to them while letting them draw the map themselves IRL. It's really achievable, it will give you some rest from the control panel and will give you a funny result to look at. Bonus point if the other players start to bant the mapper.

Just so you know, the troll who keeps shilling 2e and derailing conversations has started on the 3.5 general. He's trying to merge the pathfinder general and the 3e general.
Doesn't this guy ever get bored?

>>96947953
Mind linking the offending posts for all to see?

>>96948008
Sure. He started raiding the 3.5 general:
>>96900925
>>96942904
>>96944437
>>96944721
>>96944805
And then he just made a merged thread:
>>96947623

>>96947953
Mind linking the offending posts for all to see?

>>96948008
>>96948106
what?

>>96948106
>>96948008
>>96948035
Sorry I didn't mean to double post that, my browser didn't update correctly and I thought I didn't post it the first time. Thanks again

>>96948112
What do you mean what?
Are you asking why I posted twice?
Are you asking for an explanation on the content of what we are discussing?

>>96946312
I made a cheat sheet of various types of terrain based on the D30 Sandbox book. Its got lists for biomes so I have a decent vocabulary on hand.
Rolled about 10 descriptors per general area from a mix of DM's Miscellany Wilderness and other bits depending on the hex map to pull from as needed.
Keep it short, its just a descriptor for most hexes.
Some people do mood-board or picture collections for areas based on rummaging around on places like art station or whatever for landscape pictures to brows and have as background ideas.
Having a simple weather table helps too, gives players and you more to contextualize. Motherfuckers always talk about the weather. Its a social default to shared common experience. I based mine on the old Wormskin zine weather table.
Depends on how you're doing features and encounter rolls as you hex crawl too. What procedures are you using?

https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2021/11/blog-hex-crawls-simple-guide.html
had simple good advice. The GFC video posted is solid too.

>viewing distance
I do 5 mile hexes and don't worry too much about the horizon line being that different than earth so you can describe the adjacent areas roughly and ask them where to go.

>>96947953
>>96948035
Can't say it's him based on that. We'd know if/when he takes off his "reasonable suggestion guy" mask.
It's a weird angle, he's never shown any autistic fixation on those systems.

>>96947393
>>96947400
>crude map
Good call. Have done this and its fun, gives players just enough to run with and add things to.

>>96947102
No problem; I assumed that prospective readers were already kind of familiar with the point I was trying to refute.
Basically, the archived posts I link to are getting pointed to as proof that the mercantile system in ACKS has oversights that lead to prices being too similar between markets to have a positive profit margin when trading many kinds of goods.
However, the anon who made the archived posts originally made an error when determining trade routes, which I pointed out; The anon I responded to just flat out denied that, however the anon in the archived thread expatiated on his process in the screenshotted post in >>96946624. The underlined part in the post is where he missed the underlined criteria in the rules, resulting in the broken mess he complained about.

>>96946389
>>96947165
>>96948199
What's GFC?

>>96948391
>The underlined part in the post is where he missed the underlined criteria in the rules,
What I don't understand is what is being corrected. He doesn't even mention how far away the city and village are.

>>96948208
I thought as much. I'm used to slapping a full map in front of my players in 5e, but those maps aren't as crude since they're supposed to be widely available and serve a purpose in guiding the players through a story. Like this one.
In comparison the other map is very crude.

Since I already posted some maps I might as well post this hexmap that I never got around to using. Hope someone can get some use out of it.

>>96948538
Yon noob guide beckons

>>96946624
>picrel
if there is a contradiction I don't see it
and the text doesn't really clarify it at all
>>96948559
seconding this

>>96948538
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-h1haFSIA
Here friend.
Checking out the noob guide in the OP is a good call too. Lots of interesting stuff there.

>>96948200
No, it's definitely him, holy shit. Look at the sudden mention of the 2nd ed general, then he does a giant two-post fishfag greatest hits post with his full alternate osr history, complete with Brosr reference. Also, >>>>96948040 in his latest hijack thread. He's trying to hijack 3.5 now, lol.

>>96948035
>>96949222
Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

That guy's severely fucked up in the head.

>>96949502
I am now absolutely certain by this point that https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96434718/#q96583816 was a Fishfag Falseflag.
The way he keeps bringing it up time and again any chance he gets smacks of how he reposts his own content any chance he gets to go "See, I win, ignore the other posts pointing out I'm a retard, they don't count"

>>96947953
So instead of being glad this thread is free from the faggot for the moment, you have to bring that shit here again? Congratulations, you're just as bad.

>>96949686
You don't wish a curse on someone else just because it's been placed on you anon. He's not going to leave us alone either just because he's off elsewhere fucking with other people, as proven by the fact he's in about 6 confirmed different generals by this point.

>>96949659
>in this post mod-doxxed 4chan with its looser moderation
Good to hear actual confirmation that he's still baby raging to the mods about people telling him to fuck off and they're just ignoring him by this point though.

>>96949222
Ok, I take it back, lol. What a lunatic

>>96949686
>>96949760
Can you trolls stop each other?
Not a request, genuinely asking if you think it's possible. Do you think you guys can stop each other from trolling this board like you've been, or are you just stuck performing damage control like you're doing now?
You've really gone a bit too far now. Most of your trolling is pretty bad. Flooding the other thread was dumb. Making the 2e general just to lie about what the general "collectively decided" was also a stupid move. But, none of that is as bad as trying to drag the 3.5/PF guys into this. The whole "blame it on my boogeyman" business, if that's actually your strategy, is not going to work and it's just opening more people to hate you guys, all while you hope they hate an imaginary character equally.
If it's just one of you going rogue, you need to stop encouraging each other like this and realize how bad the move was, and stop pretending that you can just gaslight this board.

>>96949644
Before you begin, I'd like you to know, with complete sincerity, that I'm not the guy who made the recent post with the screencap of your link. I also didn't write what you are trying to say was a falseflag. Don't know if it actually was a falseflag or not, but considering that it's not the only post made in that style, I really don't doubt it's just as genuine as it is embarrassing.
You being embarrassed by that post is where you need to consider how much control you actually have. You've gotten into your heads that gaslighting can be done, that trolling will be effective, and no matter what one of you does, as long as you perform as much damage control as you can, it should work out.
It's not working out. Gaslighting each other into thinking it's one person is dumb, but you're at the point where you're hoping to gaslight each other about each other's posts. Right now, you're encouraging each other to hurt the board, and then try to blame it on your boogeyman. Even if it could work, you'd still be hurting this board.

>>96950032
>All that text just to get a "Fuck off retard"
Lot of effort for this but I suppose you earned it; fuck off retard

>>96950032
Fuck off, fishfag.

>>96949760
While true, and I feel sorry for the 3.5 anons, I lurk in this thread to read about OSR, maybe steal some ideas for my own game (when I finally get my group to play something again instead of being hopefully temporary nogames).
There's 20 posts between >>96947953 and my >>96949686, and full half of them is about some retarded drama. I don't care about that shit, I don't want to see that shit, and I don't care if it's the 2e troll, the fishfag or whoever else who started it and on what side of the fense they sit, it's still shit.

>>96950151
>when I finally get my group to play something again instead of being hopefully temporary nogames
ForeverDM?

>>96948559
>>96948922
OK, now I get you. It's not an error by contradiction, he has done it wrong by failing to follow/missing the condition that the city also must be in the range of trade of the village. I'm pretty sure that's the case, because he only describes checking whether the village is in the city's range of trade (and not also the other way around), and he is right in saying that this will likely lead to every market having basically the same demands.
However, rules as written, any market class VI village further than 24 miles on foot away from a city will not have its demands shifted, and will probably sell cheap grain, for example.

>>96949644
>I am now absolutely certain by this point that https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96434718/#q96583816 was a Fishfag Falseflag.
I wouldn't be surprised.

>>96950066
I'm guessing you are the troll who made the troll thread. Your opinion doesn't really matter then.
It's now a question, if there is actually other real people and you're not just samefagging like you usually do, whether those people think they could stop you if you continued to escalate the problem. I understand the feeling of having an idiot on my "team" (or several idiots) that I wish would just stop making things worse, and being quiet because not showing a unified front seems like the worse move, so I'm curious just how bad you trolls are at this stage.
If you've actually completely lost control over each other, and we're going to more widespread trolling and even more people dragged into this, this might be the last moment before things get completely out of hand.
I've seen this thing move like an ouiji board. Multiple hands on the puck, and just slight motions moving it forward. But, one guy has now moved the puck hard, and I don't know if you guys are going to slow things down or make things worse. I know I don't have the power to solve this situation, and the people on my "team" seem pretty gung-ho to just respond to your continued escalations in kind, and I doubt I could convince either side at this point to stop.
I just want to know if there is a chance things won't go straight to hell.

>>96950165
More or less. When anyone else in my group tried to run a game, it didn't last long, and they never just try an one-shot or something that could be finished in the ~5 sessions before they lose interest.
And I'm fucking tired of 5e.

>>96950032
You severely need to get a life, fishfag.

>>96950192
Fuck off, schizo.

>>96950202
My advice? Solo General is right there my dude.
I know what you're going to say, but it's a simple, easy way for a DM to get his fix without having to wangle a player into taking his place.
Plus you can not-play 5e.

>>96950192
You severely need to get a life, fishfag.

>>96950219
Hm, maybe. I play CYOAs sometimes, it wouldn't be that different.

>>96950214
I just told you your opinion doesn't matter right now, no matter how hard you samefag.
I'm wondering, out of any of the people expressing such distaste for the troll that decided to drag the 3.5/pf people into this, if any of them are actual real people and should be concerned that their attempts to perform damage control right now are only going to encourage you to do worse things to this board than you already have.
>>96950151
If you want to pretend to hate the drama, you probably should give up using posts just to further try and reinforce the boogeyman business. These sort of troll behaviors and fallacies are what's lead to this drama, and has continued to escalate this drama.
Looking up at this thread, even when you guys are largely left alone, you still spend most of it obsessing about your boogeyman. I think you really need to stop and question who you really need to be blaming, instead of gaslighting each other as hard as you're trying to gaslight this board.
People just want to talk about OSR in the OSR general. True in the past, and it will be true in the future, and that means learning to live with other people's opinions. If you really need to troll, the "2e suxors, lick my dick" level should be sufficient, instead of this ever-escalating nonsense involving boogeymen, multiple generals, flooding, gaslighting, and whatever new nonsense comes to mind when all the previous efforts inevitably fail.

>>96950433
Fuck off, schizo.

>>96945486
>No it's not.
Bad trolling attempt.

>>96946624
>No, the anon in the archive posts explicitly gets it wrong, as he describes when asked for further explanation
No he doesn't? He literally says it extends its influence around, that's how the trade routes work to influence other markets.

And, you are aware that most villages were MUCH closer than 24 miles to the place they traded their grain with, right? Like, it was closer for them to be within less than a mile. Also that there are potential penalties for being farther away or going through specific areas to trade and many other things you glossed over.
Why defend rules you don't understand with lies? I don't get it. Are you just retarded?

>>96950565
Think about the context for a moment.
He's upset about something someone said months ago. Completely unprompted, he spends considerably effort to try to argue with what is effectively a ghost in his head, with a determined effort to figure out how to prove that voice wrong.
There's really only one outcome he could have arrived at.

>>96950169
>OK, now I get you. It's not an error by contradiction
Mmk, so you admit your first post was wrong.

>But he didn't specify the village has to be within 24 miles so he's uh, wrong somehow
This is where your post makes no sense, because most villages supplying a city would not be further than 24 miles from it, so it's a baseless assumption or at best a "Well here's where the rules COULD work". The Anon in question was not wrong whatsoever, and apparently understood the rules better than you.

Hell, there is LITERALLY a map included in that section, and I don't think there's even a spot on the map where a village would be outside of another market's influence range. And that narrows even further since being near a river would double the trade range.

>>96950651
True enough, but it's valuable to point out that he's lying and deliberately misrepresenting an argument.
Which is even dumber when you consider that the entire thread primarily focused on the terrible mass combat rules. But it's pretty hard to argue with those since they were posted in full, whereas the broken trading rules are scattered across three sections and two books.

Funny enough, there's a point where the trading rules are actually more serviceable the less of them you read.

>>96948612
I've considered having the quality of the map related to how much players are willing to pay for one, which has a more accurate feel to it but in a way I think will become not very fun gameplay wise given how quickly treasure accumulates. Having the map be vague adds more to the exploration side.
>Dingle
heh

>>96950828
Clearly treasure should decrease through training costs, upkeep, taxes duties and tithes, vestments and largess, money changers, rival parties, marking up of prices, thieves guild activities, more legitimate guilds temples and public officials pilfering their coffers by more legal means, other ill-willed ne'er-do-wells looking to make an easy buck off the obviously well to do members of the adventuring class. Not to mention damages, spillage, skimming and cheating in any operations and businesses they're involved in, loss of treasure carts and personnel to what goes bump in the dark as well as the perils of the wild.

>>96952507
Sounds like you don't want your players to build castles and field armies. That's okay, but are your players cool with not having the option?

>>96950565
>>96950651
>>96950678
>there was an attempt
It's fine Fishfagoto, you've just been comprehensively found out, that's all.

>>96952556
This. I just jiggle the keys in front of them and they're happy to establish themselves as someone important in the setting.

"Oh wow adventurer, you're doing well for yourself! The Guild was thinking about opening a new trade road but is lacking the capital for a new ship. Surely someone as wealthy and daring as you..."