why do game developers do this

you'd know if you tried your hand at balancing, anon.

>>712358105 (OP)
protip, you read these as if statememts

>DMG = ATK*0.1 for ATK <= 1/8 * DEF
is equivalent to
>if (ATK <= 1/8*DEF)
>{
>DMG = ATK *0.1;
>}

>>712358256
i think i would probably do better than from software considering defense has only ever been useless at all levels, or only useful when stacked as high as possible and then overpowered

>>712358105 (OP)
For me it's
>A's STR2 ÷ (B's STR+DEF)

>>712358602
yes thanks its a piecewise function something everyone learns in highschool
my problem is that its 5 pieces each with 5 magic numbers
this is a much more reasonable defense calculation (league of legends)

>>712358714
>4chan ate my squared symbol
well fuck you, too

>>712358748
how do you even read that?

>>712358256
desu balancing like the OP's image is a typically japanese approach, where they go out of their way to try to make the calculations as arcane as possible for... some reason. and they add all sorts of fiats and hardcoded special rules for everything. maybe it is to make the game feel deeper but personally i find it amateurish. i think there's some truth to the idea that stupid people admire complexity whereas smart people like simplicity

western approach is as few numbers and variables as possible, probably due to pen & paper influence. the western approach usually makes it easier to predict and simulate what might happen, which can make the game feel more intuitive and tactical.

>>712358882
its another piecewise function
basically it maths out to "you can tank R% extra damage before you die, unless R<0 then you take R% extra damage"

>>712358882


if R >= 0
{
value = 100/(100+R);
}
else
value=2-(100/(100+R));

dm = dr * value

>>712359131
fuck neat me to it

>>712358105 (OP)
what game?

>>712358942
>Japanese do it for no reason and are dumb
What an idiotic statement

how do I get better at maths?
this shit is unintelligible to me

I failed calc 1 twice so I hate seeing this shit. Get ts off my screen

>>712358105 (OP)
It comes from not understanding the concept that simple rules can cause complex emergent phenomena with high depth gameplay. They try and add complexity when they realise their game has shallow gameplay. They want things to be solved with an optimal solution instead of just letting nature do its work.

here's terraria's defense calculation
it highlights a huge issue i have with a lot of defense systems
say you are fighting an enemy with 30 defense (like a mimic) on expert mode
if you attack it with a single 100 damage attack, you will deal 100 - 30 * 0.75 = 78 damage
if you attack it with a 4x25 damage attack, you will deal 4x (25 - 30 * 0.75) = 10 damage
this means slower, heavier hitting weapons are just naturally the strongest in the majority of situations since almost every enemy has a decent amount of armor
this is also true in >>712360067 dark souls 1 of course

>>712360356
uhh yeah, why do you think japanese fighting games didnt have rollback still like 25 years after western devs had figured it out? and even then in a lot of studios they had to bring over western devs to do it for them. they're just not that good at tech stuff in general

why do game developers do this

I hate nikke's formula that makes crit useless

>>712360692
>you do less damage if you attack with a weaker weapon
and?

for me

DMG = Atk - Def

>>712361306
It's not proportional

if +1 attack power doesn't mean 1 point of extra damage then the systems in your game essentially boil down to "number go up" because the player is never going to actually look into the calcuations

>>712361707
sooo, if someone has less attack than the enemy's defense, they take damage?

>>712362008
Proportional to what? The 4x25 weapon is weaker, that's all there is to it.

>>712360692
direct addition/deduction is in a way the most intuitive for armor, because it doesn't matter how many times you poke at plate armor with a knife, you're never getting through. getting power armor in something like fallout 1/2 feels kino because like 80% of the enemies become completely incapable of even damaging you. that's what really good armor should feel like

that said an approach like that is very limiting and doesn't fit into games like terraria much at all

>>712358105 (OP)
Provides enough variance at lower ratios that seemingly marginal changes aren't useless, while limiting variance at higher ratios so that the game doesn't become broken to uselessness.

>>712360903
Japanese developers are often technologically conservative, but Japanese games have much better game design than Western ones. I don't know why some JRPGs have such complex damage formulas, but that doesn't make me think there's no reason. Here's a guess: They're a result of tweaking the numbers until the enemies die roughly at the speed they want (for design reasons), while keeping the numbers steadily rising throughout the game (for aesthetic reasons)

>>712361306
doing 10x less DPS because you are using a higher level rapidfire weapon instead of lower level fuckhuge slow sword is bad design

>>712361306
these games have like 50 different weapons and only 3 of them are useful

>>712358105 (OP)
in this game's case, it's because there's different weapon types that need to be balanced differently. Tiny daggers hit fast and should do "a lot of damage" to unarmored foes, less to armored but not completely nullified (like they would be with Terraria like formulas), so that things remain balanced. Then there's the next weight category of weapons like swords which might get 1-2 less hits in than the daggers, but should still do about as much to unarmored dudes, maybe a little more versus armor. Then bigass weapons when you're likely to get only one hit in so it should almost always count ... it's a bunch of edge cases with discrete jumps in numbers, driven by the game's thematic design rather than an initial goal of having clean math and going from there. The numbers you get are cryptic as a result (weapon AR means nothing because it's nonlinear), but it feels sovlful as hell tbqh

then in Elden Ring they fuck it all up with retarded weapon arts and spells doing gorillions of damage

>>712363218
This seems like the correct answer to me

>>712363662
This. I rather like formulas that have some portion of defenses ignored by attack for this reason. As janky as Dark Souls is, all the number tweaking they can do let them do stuff like keep Daggers damage low but still make it an effective riposte weapon.

>yfw you try to decipher monster hunter's damage mechanics

I swear threads like these are made just to flex on me because I am absolutely atrocious at math and can't even read most of that.

Why don't they use percentages for everything? The attack is 10, but your level increases it by 200%. Your weapon increases by 100%. The enemy's armor reduces total damage by 25%, etc.

>>712364461
The right column determines what formula you use. It chooses which DEF value the ATK value is fighting against depending on the difference between ATK and DEF. The larger the difference in favor of DEF, the more effective the DEF is, and the smaller the difference, the less effective the DEF is.

>>712363218
Additionally, the formulas ensure that damage still goes up when ATK and DEF go up even if the ratio is the same, making HP important. Otherwise, you could just stack DEF and HP would be irrelevant.

>>712364461
Gain some self confidence or learn some basic math, bitch.

The numbers are also tuned towards values of DEF and ATK the players can actually reach, so looking at in a vacuum doesn't tell the whole picture either.

>>712364760
I don't know how to read a formula at all. I don't know what you mean by values fighting against each other and it's hard for me to tell which value is for DEF and which is ATK in that image because it is very poorly shown. I can't comprehend your last sentence at all. Math formulae seem like a really poor way to convey information.

>>712365231
I have self confidence and know basic arithmetic, but anything beyond that is just incomprehensible to me. I still don't know how to do multiplication without a calculator and can never remember which number goes first with division, like if I'm trying to figure out how many times 4 goes into 10 I have no idea if I do 4/10 or 10/4, I just do both and go with which one seems more likely. It's just not intuitive to me at all.

>>712362540
Makes sense

[code]DMG = rand(0, max(0, ATK-DEF) );[/code]

>>712365747
nice /v/ doesn't have a code tags what a dogshit board btw not, posting here again

>>712365747
>satania
let me guess, you're a tranny?

i hate calculus

atk-def works the best.

>>712365848
no but (YOU) are

>>712365958
what if the defense is higher than the attack

>>712358105 (OP)
I want to see what this looks like on a graph

>>712366127
then u hit 0 always >>712365747

>>712366127
Clamp to zero.

>>712361148
hope you bought the game since it's funding my diet soda habits

>>712366127
you inflict negative damage

>>712365469
The formula in OP is basic math. If you don't want to practice math, don't get bothered by threads like this.

>>712366495
>>712366229
then you can only hurt enemies lower level than you

>>712366730
yes.

>>712366730
yes?

>>712366675
you don't choose to get bothered by something, it just happens

>basic math
>parentheses
>whatever that horizontal line between the numbers is
>the little number floating outside

>>712366730
Not really. It does make atk and def more intuitive though and with that the status effects that affect them.

weapons should have one damage number and damage calculation should be weapon damage minus armor, that's it
no stupid 69-123 damage ranges

>>712365469
The ATK or DEF value is wherever it says ATK or DEF. The numbers are whatever your ATK or DEF is. And the last sentence means if you have 1000 ATK vs. 500 DEF, you might do 700 damage, ignoring 200 of their DEF, but if you had 800 ATK vs. 500 DEF, you might do 400 damage, only ignoring 400 of their DEF instead, since the 1000 ATK got to go against a different formula from the right-hand side that made their DEF a bit less effective. Fake numbers, but a simplified way to look at it.

>>712358105 (OP)
would you prefer

>>712362540
it means armor is too thick and your sword bounces back and hurts your wrists

>>712366970
but i like when theres both flat and % based mitigation
means theres value in both maximum dps and maximum burst

>>712358105 (OP)
>>712366225
lol what the fuck
this looks like an accident, like they were using some kind of software to generate equations from curves and didn't realize that these weren't straight lines
what game?

>>712358105 (OP)
What pissess me off is
>can't reduce dmg taken to 0, minimum damage taken will always be 1

>>712366839
You do. It just takes time. Work on your self-esteem.

>>712367018
Then why does it say ATK over DEF in the parentheses next to each ATK value? Why is there 5 of them?
>And that last sentence means (...)
what I mean is that I can't comprehend that degree of abstraction, like
>the larger the difference in favor of DEF
already lost me because I have no idea what you mean by difference in favor of def, but
>the more effective the DEF is
completely and totally lost me because I can't think of the previous point and factor this one in at the same time

like, if someone goes, "if x equals y, then z" nope, too many, can't think of that much at once

like your elaboration on the last sentence, thanks for that, but that is far too many numbers and relations for me to even begin to mentally process, by the time I got to "ignoring 200 of their DEF" I was completely confused

>>712366839
You can ignore everything but
>ATK * (ATK/DEF)^2
The rest are just coefficients to fudge the numbers.

>>712367429
There's no relation, it's like me farting in your face and then telling you you lack self esteem if it upsets you.

>>712367604
So I know to do parentheses first, so ATK divided by DEF, but I have no idea what that ^ is or if I do it before multiplying the final value by ATK

Balancing is really hard and if you don't plan out every single number beforehand you end up with retarded equations like this.
Expressed as an equation it looks insane and retarded but as procedural code it's probably more straightforward.

>>712367318
>game has no limit on damage tickrate
>optimal dps is to just hit them for 1 a billion times per second
>BUT
>the game spawn little individual damage visuals for each instance of damage and will not batch or cull them
>therefore going full retard with this will instantly crash your game
>so you have to optimize your damage to just under the point of completely raping the framerate

>>712367805
Judging by the amount of magic numbers in there I think reaching that solution was anything but straightforward.

>>712366787
>>712366797
>>712366897
>cant hurt the enemy guess ill grind 20 levels

>>712358105 (OP)
It's time to RETVRN to tradition.

>>712368097
magic numbers arent complicated theyre just retarded

I went looking for an existing curve to help explain this concept. I started with Warcraft armor figures and couldn't think of anything better.

Obviously, you start with linear, maybe with clamping at either end of the full range. If that ends up with bad behavior in certain ranges, you try a simple curve - polynomial, exponential, logarithmic, x/(x+C), etc. If that still has issues then you go piecewise and tailor each range to behave properly.

>>712367279
That is amusing but realize that you've shown one plot when the functions given produce a spectrum of plots, a la pic related. It looks like the tool you're using lets you just drag that slider to see the spectrum so I assume its mostly linear for all values for you to have posted that one shot.

>>712365958
i think this is actually not a bad system as long as damage is floored to 1
it worked great in Fallout NV

>>712367279
>>712358105 (OP)
not paying for plus aislop

Math guys who don't put the multiplication sign in formulas are absolute tryhard fucknuggets

>>712368493
did you drop out of school in 5th grade

>>712368291
That's why the game has levels and stats.

>>712368575
I've never used formulas like that in school

>>712368493
The fuck are you talking about?

>>712368493
Anon... It's the dot.

>>712368642
The one in the OP is doing it right, a lot of people omit the dot between variables and numbers

>>712368632
so you never got to pre-algebra? are you like a dravidian peasant or something? either that you are are genuinely 11 years old.

>>712368687
I know, but I'm still saying it is

>>712368734
I graduated, I never did anything like that

Defense is a scam by merchants to sell you more armors.
Just remove the stat and put it all in health, problem, fixed. Take the Guild Wars pill.

>>712368734
NTA but I graduated high school and never once did formulas or algebra at all

what if you are both max leveled

>>712368364
raising the DEF value just increases the scale of the graph, its shape stays the same
thinking about it more, I think they just wanted the damage to follow ATK * 0.1 below an arbitrary range and ATK * 0.9 above that range, the piecewise gymnastics are just to make a curve that bridges those two lines

>>712369062
We take pre-algebra in middle school. I am really curious what country you live in because I don't understand how it can have a worse educational system than America. You cannot pass high-school in my state without at least taking 2 algebra classes.

>>712368717
For a moment I thought you were saying that they should be using the x multiplication symbol, unaware that it has a different meaning as an operator once you move past algebra.

Anyway, putting in a shit ton of dots is just making your writing into slop. There is one and only one issue where your complaint is relevant: variables that are words (instead of a letter with subscript) where the writing would cause them to run together and be indistinguishable.

>>712369245
I'm American. I don't know what the fuck you mean by taking classes, you get assigned them, you don't choose them.

>>712358748
>something everyone learns in highschool
No. I was one of the most gifted kids in my class and we didn't get to calculus.

>>712369193
>raising the DEF value just increases the scale of the graph, its shape stays the same
Because you are allowing ATK to scale with it. Fix the range of ATK for all values of DEF. You should see the parabolic region overtake the linear region.

>>712369401

>>712358748
>something everyone learns in highschool
in what world? We never did functions, piecewise or whatever the fuck you just posted there

>>712369558
Are you sure you attended highschool and not some special school? You take Calculus II before the end of highschool.

>>712368493
They seldom use it because X can mean a cross product or · can mean a dot product.

>>712368824
You're not stupid, some schools don't have that material until university and that is a crime. We are privileged kids who took AP and Pre-AP courses from well funded schools.

>>712367604
Shit formula prone bugs. No wonder they filled it up with all kinds of if checks in the OP's pic.
>stack 100 atk
>debuff enemy to 1 def
>dmg = 100 * 100 * 100
>if you are off by 1 in step 2 you do four times less damage or the game crashes

>>712366519
Game? I'll buy it.

I am making a game and I am struggling to think of a defense system that isn't useless or boring.
I kind of like the idea of damage thresholds, as in, if you are not penetrating armor enough then your attacks are severely weakened.
damage = (penetration * targetDef) > damage ? damage * 0.5 : damage
penetration would be a special value only for magical weapons or something.
I would have a visual cue for if def > dam
is this retarded?

>>712369669
Not him, but mine had Calculus I and Linear Algebra at most. I grew up in a red state like Texas and they would rather fund bible schools and football.

>>712369401
You must live in a black people state or something

>>712358105 (OP)
Its just increasing damage when your attack is higher, I do not think having 5 different formulas is necessary having 3 can cover when your attack is higher, when your attack is equivalent and when your attack is lower

>>712369721
please dont comment on programming if you arent a programmer
thanks dumbass

>>712369692
>We are privileged kids who took AP and Pre-AP courses from well funded schools
That's pre-calculus at the lowest. Course naming schemes are fuckin retarded but it is absolutely normal high school curriculum to cover shit like solving logarithmic and exponential equations prior to pre-calc. It's conic sections and whatnot that are advanced.

>>712369558
>We never did functions

What the fuck were you a literal retard

>>712369669
I went to normal public highschool. I didn't take anything but math. There's no "II" classes in highschool you fucking retard, it's not a college.

>>712370091
>it is absolutely normal high school curriculum to cover shit like solving logarithmic and exponential equations
I graduated in 2010 and I have no idea what these words even mean.

>>712369451
I'm not sure what you mean
I'm not doing anything to ATK, I just changed DEF and zoomed out
play around with it yourself if you want: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/z9jjsazzpp

>>712370456
>and zoomed out
Don't do that. The piecewise functions are defined by the ratio of ATK and DEF, so fucking obviously increasing both of them is going to result in no change. The point of the functions is to have different behavior when one of the two outclasses the other.

>>712365469
sorry anon, you're just dumb.

>>712370437
Normal public highschool in Somalia?

>>712370798
America. The United States.

>>712370091
Not if you went to an underfunded school. Some don't have AP nor Pre-AP classes. The education system in the US isn't universal and needs reform.

It's going to be more fucked with school voucher programs.

>>712369249
AB = AB simple as, not A*B

People who think they're bad at math are in truth just bad at reading.
Math isn't about being good at it. It's about being literate. Math has no nuances. If you do bad math, you're being bad at it in the same way as English/writing. As in you're making spelling/grammar mistakes.
Also, even if you're good at math, you will still not know what to do if you see notation you do not know. Rather, being good at math in the first place may be considered just being familiar with most notation and being able to parse it. A series looks like gibberish to most people when they're all basically just addition. The concept isn't difficult, but writing it out specifically and too many different situations/formulas is which is where the literacy part comes in. It's like saying a sentence in different ways with different nuances. The series of all whole numbers vs the series of all natural numbers. It might mean the exact same thing, but there's a difference in writing it.

One of the reasons math rates are plummeting is people don't realize kids are faltering at being able to parse math in the first place. Nothing you teach about math makes sense if they can't even read/understand it in the first place. There has to be a literacy step to every new part of mathematics you teach somebody and if they've not been properly taught at any prior step, they're going to be shit at math going forward. This is also what makes it near impossible for most random people who were never taught math properly as kids to learn math in adulthood. It's like learning another language. It's extremely difficult to jump into advanced math topics without knowing the basics and the vast majority of people won't ever start at the bottom with the basics even if they need to like with learning a language.

However, then there's the problem people aren't even learning their first language well anymore either.

>>712370937
I don't even know what the fuck AP means in this context. What schools are you fags going to?

>>712370937
I explicitly said that the topic was NOT AP or Pre-AP, you illiterate fuck.

>>712371095
That's what I am telling you, they don't have those courses. Some teachers would skip over those subjects if they don't have time to cover it.

>>712371003
AB is only a singular entity if referring to a singular entity with notation that declares it as such. If it's a line segment, there is a bar over the letters. A vector has a vector bar. An angle between line segments has an angle symbol in front. With no additional notation, AB is A times B.

>>712358105 (OP)
These probably started simple and then had values tweaked again and again as playtesting was done with little care for how neat it looked.
And a lot of games reuse code from older ones, so the equations can become stranger over time as people modify them to fit new contexts.
It doesn't really make it any harder to maintain, in the end.

>>712371325
>That's what I am telling you
What I said is the opposite of what you said. Reread my posts, you illiterate fuck.

>>712371071
Math has jack fucking shit to do with language and reading. I can speedread and spell things perfectly in my head 10/10 times without any effort at all and I am completely retarded at math. Math is completely unintuitive random incomprehensible babble with no structure or reason to it whatsoever that requires you memorized a hundred trillion confusing bizarro rules, symbols and concepts.

I have complete faith in myself that, if I overcame the laziness part, I could easily learn Japanese within a reasonable amount of time. I have ZERO faith I could ever learn any substantial amount of math at all. It's a flat out mental block that cannot be surpassed.

>>712371483
>memorized a hundred trillion confusing bizarro rules, symbols and concepts
That's language, Anon.

>>712371483
theres a lot of getting used to it in math

The fuck is that maths bullshit

>>712371590
No it isn't, language is extremely intuitive and easy to understand.
>see this thing I am holding?
>make this noise for it
>you can write it that way
It's just that, not whatever the fuck this y+z(x)^ã=4/4[57]<96 insane shit is. Again, I can wipe my ass with language, math is beyond impossible for me.

>>712360692
Souls games are weird with how their multi-hit damage works.
Early on any type of spell that does multiple hits is probably useless, compared to just one stronger attack.
At higher levels of enemy defense and Intelligence/Arcane, multihit spells start doing more damage than they did early game.

>>712362089
This.
If you have loot that both goes "+1.0 ATT" and "+10% Attack Damage", I am going to lose all respect for your game because very clearly you think you're too fucking clever for your own good.

>>712371794
>you can write it that way
This part, Anon.

Why did I use a comma there? Why am I using punctuation? What is the question mark for? Why are the words in the order that they are in? Why are they spelled the way that they are? What are the letters what they are?

With the way you are limiting the definition of language, I could only ask:
noʊ tɔk ðJs waJ (no talk this way)

>>712371794
For what you wrote to intend as nonsense.
y+z(x)^ã=4/4[57]<96

y+z(x)^ã
y, x, z, and ã are variables.
x is being taken to the power of ã
Afterwhich it is multiplied by z
Then you add Y

y+z(x)^ã=4/4[57]
This total is equal to 4/4[57] which is just 1 times 57 or just 57. Square brackets are usually used to encase formulas which are already specifying order with parenthesis. So here it can potentially be a matrix. But a matrix that contains a single value just equals that value.

57<96
57 is indeed less than 96.

Is this entire explanation magically impossible for you to understand?
Like I get you probably find variables hard to read, but the 57 is less than 96 should be pretty easy.

>>712369902
Not sure how it's supposed to work but the way you wrote it states that
>1. everyone always does half damage unless a magical weapon is equipped
>2. intentionally doing less damage may end up doing more damage in the end with a magical weapon equipped
Don't like it.

>>712371073
AP means you can do a slightly harder class that counts for a college credit.
Usually its just to let you skip a lot of Freshmen year filler classes most schools make you take.

>>712369902
When designing a combat system, before trying to do numbers, think about how many hits you expect enemies to be taking in the first place. Bosses, mooks, stronger mooks, etc. Then design your damage system and determine what scenarios you believe should make that amount of hits go up or down and by how much.

Then try to make as simple a formula as possible to fit your intent.

>>712372379
>limiting the definition
Shut the fuck up nigger. Not a single question you just posed is even to as difficult to learn as 5x5.

>>712372452
I'm hoping this is an AI generated response.

{
0.1 for R ≤ 1/8
( (19.2 / 49) ⋅ (R - 0.125)2 + 0.1 ) for R ≤ 1
( (-0.4 / 3) ⋅ (R - 2.5)2 + 0.7 ) for R ≤ 2.5
( (-0.8 / 121) ⋅ (R - 8)2 + 0.9 ) for R ≤ 8
0.9 for R ≥ 8
}

>>712371387
I have no idea what any of this means

>>712372638
sorry i worded it weird
penetration would be between 0 and 1 and default to 1. penetration of 0 would mean it ignores all armor, penetration of 0.5 would halve defenses.

in other words
if the damage is less than def times the penetration multiplier, damage is halved. the penetration multiplier is almost always one.

>>712358105 (OP)
Where are they deriving numbers like 19.2/49 from?

>>712371483
Same. I have given up. Doing rough math within the dollar at the store is the most advanced stuff i can do

Why is this guy pretending to be retarded about five different things all at once? About anything that anyone says in this thread?

What in the utter fuck.

>>712372948
It is not, you do not even know how to make nonsense math to the point you made perfectly readable math. Nothing about
y+z(x)^ã=4/4[57]<96
is hard to read. You just typed up a bunch of things you think math looks like and came out with functioning math because you used plainly simple math. Math isn't that hard.

>>712373026
AB in math would usually mean the variable A multiplied by the variable B. The variable A could be any number like 1 or 5.2, same with variable B.

However there is potential confusion in this case as AB could possibly be a single variable with the name AB. However this would generally be specified before hand. In that case, then the variable AB would involve no multiplication and be a single number like 1 or -3.7 or something.

In geometry, there are additional types of notation regarding connections between 2 points like point A and point B. These have additional markings so they would not be confused with the prior 2 scenarios.

>>712358105 (OP)
They probably started with some numbers pulled off their ass and did some maths like "with X weapon you should be able to kill Y boss in Z seconds" and they calculated the magic numbers to that. Problem is, it's extremely hard to keep that kind of mathematical approach consistent when you start to add new weapons, new effects, new gimmicks, and so on, so the numbers just stay there and they instead change the ATK and DEF values, and never touch the damage formula, leaving behind an awful, unintuitive mess.

>>712373613
It should be way more intuitive

>looking for new damage skill
>ask the skill tree if the damage skill is additive or multiplicative
>it doesn't understand
>pull out illustrated diagram of the damage calculation formula explaining what is additive and what is multiplicative
>skill tree laughs and says "it's a good damage skill, sir"
>take damage skill
>it's additive

>>712373732
If you had participated in the process of learning it, it is.

You might as well be obvious to the concept of a contraction and ask "What the FUCK is 'should've?'"

>>712358105 (OP)
gamedevs cant into math

>>712360587
the damage formula is equal to that line if the conditional is satisfied, for example:

dmg = ATK * 0.1 if ATK <= 1/8 DEF

for ATK = 1 and DEF = 8

ATK <= 1/8 * DEF ->
1 <= 1/8 * 8 ->
1 <= 1

which satisfies the conditional, then DMG = 1 * 0.1 = 0.1. It's pretty simple.

>>712358256
balancing is easy as fuck
give me an afternoon with the numbers of any game and I will make it perfect

>>712360692
This stopped being a problem once they added some armor penetration accessories. You can ignore almost all armor on a vast majority of enemies because most enemies have little to no armor.

Just because you remember cheesing through most of the game with the Minishark back in 2010 does not mean it's suddenly bad design that you're encouraged to use a different weapon to take down Expert Skeletron.

>>712373804
I think it’s funny when you play a game where additive damage boosts are better but the community just will not accept it

>>712373221
There's no math there you fucking retard. I literally mashed random keys and symbols. y+z(x)^ã=4/4[57]<96 is not math. Not a single bit of that is math. Go ahead and tell me the a with a squiggly line above it is somehow mathematical.

>>712358105 (OP)
What happens if ATK = 8.DEF?

Okay boys, now explain how sub-cubic matrix multiplication works (and don't just hand-wave it away as divide-and-conquer).

>>712374076
what the fuck is a conditional
what the fuck is <=
how do you factor in an "if" in that
what the fuck is ->

>>712360692
weaker attacks are less good against armor
and the problem here is what exactly, other than armored enemies being too common I guess.

>>712374210
The best is generally using a good combination of additive and multiplicative skills/sources. But in games where damage scaling ramps up pretty quickly then additive usually drops off hard compared to multiplicative at the end.

>>712374245
>>712374359
PLEASE finish highschool

>>712374427
I finished it over a decade ago. There is no math here. Fuck off you disgusting freak of nature.

>durr balancing hurr
Enemy has 100 health. Sword deals 10 damage per swing. That's all you need.

>>712373804
>various skills and equipment are randomly multiplicative or additive
>some bonuses stack, some have a stacking limit, and some don't stack at all
>None of this is documented or explained anywhere
T-thanks

>>712374359
conditional means "if something happens, this also happens".
<= means less than or equal to, to 1 <= 1 means that one is less than or equal to one.
in the case of the conditional statement there, it's evaluated from bottom up, so it first checks if ATK is less than or equal to 1/8 * DEF, if not, then it checks the other conditional and so forth.
-> is just an arrow to signify that the equation continues on the next line.

>>712373908
Math just doesn't make sense to me

>>712358105 (OP)
what a retarded fucking formula......
is this actually real?? what the absolute fucking jeetcraft is this

all damage and attack formulas should be based on functions that peter out as you get high stats
most iconic example is of course the logarithm

>>712374245
>Go ahead and tell me the a with a squiggly line above it is somehow mathematical
That is a notation that has a meaning, yes.

Understand that "notation" is just shorthand for a mathematical object or operation that is arbitrarily assigned and explained by the person assigning it (the one who is developing the new mathematical approach), and agreed upon by everyone who sees their approach and uses it.

Ü is the second time derivative of the quantity U. This notation was invented by Isaac Newton.

>>712374692
>1 <= 1 means that one is less than or equal to one
math is incomprehensible

>>712373908
>be obvious to the concept of a contraction and ask "What the FUCK is 'should've?'"
this is a good simulation of what language would be like if it was like math, just poorly worded incomprehensible retardation

>>712374874
>Understand that "notation" is just shorthand for a mathematical object or operation
>Ü is the second time derivative of the quantity U
You literally might as well be making farting noises with your mouth because everything you are saying is complete nonsense that means nothing at all. Vixfloobgarbnarben.

This is what elegant solutions look like.

>>712375278
>CSharp
>Unity
gud marning saar

>>712375278
>float
hp and damage should never be expressed in fractions, I've seen too many people survive 0% health in games due to rounding errors

>>712375505
If that's what jumps out to you in that pic I have bad news for you.

>>712375278
>thinking that ending up with situations where it is impossible for any damage to be done is an elegant solution
(I am no-selling the fact that the code in question would convert that situation into healing the attacked target)

>>712358105 (OP)
>...atk <= 8*def
>...atk >= 8*def
At exactly atk being equal to 8*def both of these statements are true. Shit code.

>>712375278
If this meme language works anything like c/c++ the code does nothing but waste electricity.

>>712375783
if checks conditionals one by one anon, the first one to be satisfied is used.

>>712374894
lets put this into a word problem
>elevator has a weight limit of 400 lbs
>if your weight is less than or equal to 400 lbs, you can ride the elevator
>if your weight is greater than 400 lbs you should lose weight you fat fuck

what exactly is confusing about that

>>712375614
yes he forgot the equals and the values don't come from anywhere, it's just pseudocode, deal with it

>>712376063
Nothing, because that's comprehensible. Whatever shit you wrote out before is basically hieroglyphs. This is what I said before, math formula are an atrocious way to convey information.

>>712363096
Use your brain.
If big sword does 80 damage in one hit, and small sword does 10 damage in 4, it means that big sword is 32x more powerful per swing or 8x more powerful per second. If it's the same tier of weapon then there is literally no reason to ever use the small weapon. So any build you make for it is useless and it may as well not be in the game

>>712358105 (OP)
This is why Ragnarok Online is the superior MMORPG. It's extremely simple.

>put points into your damage stats(STR, DEX or INT depending on class)
>bonus for round numbers, like 10/20/30 etc
>the atk or matk number displayed on the status screen is the real deal
>every skill is described as doing damage equal to a % of your atk
>a skill with 400% ATK damage simply does damage equal to 4*ATK
>every 1 DEF of the enemy is -1% damage, so 20 DEF means subtracting 20% off the number
>then you subtract 1 flat damage for every point of VIT the enemy has
>that's it
You don't need shit like OP's table. If your game doesn't scale well, your system is shit and that's that.

>>712374894
it's not less than but it is equal to
instead of saying "if x is less than 1 or if x is equal to 1", you just take the less than symbol < and equals symbol = and put them together <=

>25% increase in critical chance
>have no idea if that means my 10% crit chance gets boosted to 35% or 12.5%

>>712376383
Dude, reread your fucking post right here and tell me that it's legible. What the fuck is with math and using arcane symbols for everything?

>>712376462
...why would it ever be 12.5%? 2.5% is not equivalent to 25% of 10%

>>712376595
the small end of the arrow points to the number that should be lower, and the large end points to the number that should be higher

if you put it next to the equals symbol then it means that it's also okay for the numbers to be equal

it's really not difficult to understand

>>712376214
im not the guy who was originally replying to you btw

but thats exactly what the math is saying

>dmg = ATK * 0.1 if ATK <= 1/8 DEF
your damage dealt is one tenth of your attack stat if your attack stat is less than or equal to one eighth of the enemy's defense stat

(for what its worth it would be easier to read if the if statement was first)

>>712376785
What the fuck is the small end of an arrow? The pointed end or what?

>>712376796
>your damage dealt is one tenth of your attack stat if your attack stat is less than or equal to one eighth of the enemy's defense stat
I cannot comprehend this, and expressed with the retarded mathspeak above makes it even more confusing.

>>712376595
i think youre just retarded bro. youre complaining 2+2=4 is incomprehensible because you dont know what "+" or "=" means

>>712375278
>>712375416
>>712375505
>>712375769
>>712376021
The code has been refactored, it should work properly now.

>>712376720
Please show your work

>anon continues to pretend to be more and more retarded as other anons try to explain increasingly more basic math
While it's effective, I don't understand the motive.

>>712377010
This is infinitely more complex and difficult to parse than 2+2=4, don't be condescending.

>>712376318
Hmmm interesting interesting
Now let’s talk about how retarded attack speed is

>>712376720
what is 0.1*0.25?

>>712376462
xcom logic has been a disaster for gaming

>>712377148
Significantly you mean

>>712377021
>calculating damage every frame

>>712377146
There's no motive, I can't do math the same way I can't do those IQ test thingies where they want you to rotate an object in your head or figure out what a cube would look like folded up with numbers on the sides or something. It's a flat mental block. 1 => 5.6 or whatever is not something my brain can parse, it's like asking me to imagine a new color.

>>712377021
did an AI write this? why the fuck would damage be clamped by delta time?

>>712377342
I made sure it works at 60fps though :)

>>712376318
what is def derived from if its a percentage

>>712377413
Calculated and discarded.

>>712358602
thats obviously not what hes complaining about
the issue is that the formula itself is a little crazy for everything in between 0.1 and 0.9

>Immediately realize this is a very cheap 25% DPS gain
>Still don't use it because it feels terrible to have what should be a massive damage skill completely whiff

>>712376978
what can you not comprehend? lets go back to the elevator example because you understood that

if yourWeight <= elevatorLimit, you are too fat to go on the elevator

if yourAttack <= enemyDefense/8, you do yourAttack*0.1 damage

>>712377536
ok so
>either hits for half damage or double
>meaning you either hit for -50% or +100%
am I retarded or would you, on average, be dealing 50% more, since the potential gain is double the loss?

where are you getting 25% dps increase from?

>>712369669
I went to an American public school. In the 8th grade, the smartest half of the class took Algebra while the dumbest half took another year of normal math (arithmetic or whatever). So in freshman year of high school, we then took Geometry while the dumber kids took Algebra, and then sophomore year we took Algebra II, and then junior year we took Pre-Calculus. I asked my teacher what "Pre-Calculus" was and he said it was mostly Trigonometry, which wasn't its own class anymore, and brushing up on Geometry to prepare you for Calculus. I told him I was excited to take Calculus senior year and he told me I couldn't because they were mandating an Algebra III before Calculus because they found two years of algebra wasn't enough. I dropped out, but I talked to people younger than me years later and they told me that's exactly what happened: they took Algebra III senior year.

If you took Calculus at all in high school you're either in your 40s or you skipped classes because you're a bigger nerd than me (and that's impressive).

And before you ask, this is Massachusetts, the smartest state in the country (and the worst drivers).

>>712360692
thats really not true for terrarias' case, fast firing weapons are often extremely great and theres several sources for reducing enemy defense
If you want an actual example of flat defense being absolute dogshit, look no further than dragons dogma. god that game is so bogged down by it

>>712377536
>big DPS boost
>but it feels like you're playing morrowind
Actual trolling.

>>712377767
The average of 200 and 50 is 125
200+50 = 250
250/2 = 125

>>712377021
>>712375278
the correct way to write this btw is
int damage(int attack, int defense) {return attack - defense;}

>>712377761
>yourAttack <= enemyDefense/8
this part, the horrible, atrocious way math conveys things

"If you weight more than the elevator limit" is completely comprehensible, using bizarre symbols and weird ways of writing shit is not.

>>712367279
>what game?
Its dark souls 1

Making your systemic modifier methods moduli instead of differential functions is peak pajeet coder brain

>>712377778
>I was excited to take Calculus
sociopath

>>712377174
Okay you got me there, but from a gameplay perspective it's not so bad. You just need to know that AGI and DEX make it go higher, with AGI being 4x as influent.

>>712377471
For monsters, it's simply a number on their stat sheet, not derived from anything.
For players, it's granted by equipment. For example, the simple Helm you buy from the NPC store has 6 DEF, so it reduces all incoming physical damage by 6%. You add up the DEF of every gear slot you have linearly.
For every refine(+ sign on gear) you add another 0.66 DEF, rounded down.
And that's your DEF. Even simpler than ATK. The more you have, the more significant the next point becomes. And it caps at 99.

>>712370727
attack is fixed to the x axis, nothing is being scaled

>>712377536
For peak trolling it should have been 50% chance to do no damage or double damage.

>>712377894
Don't know what average means in that context, don't know why you added 200 and 50 and then divided it in half.

Say you hit for 10. With that equipped, you are hitting for either 5 or 20, with the exact same chance for either. Your average damage would be 15, a 50% increase, because for every hit you do half damage, you'd be doing 3 times as much = effectively +150%

...and I just wrote it out, doing 10 swings, assuming 50/50 5 and 20 and got 125, so I'm not sure where the fuck that 25% missing is going

>>712377536
why do devs do this shit? Just write out the final damage numbers themselves, why the fuck are you leaving the math for me to do?

>>712378139
retard

>>712378345
>Don't know what average means in that context, don't know why you added 200 and 50 and then divided it in half.
Go back to school and don't fail 5th grade this time.

>>712378345
You actually don't do any more damage on average. Half the time, you do half the damage, and the other half of the time, you do two times the damage, and 2 * 0.5 is 1.

>>712378456
no u
= x or = y in desmos means it is equal to the axis value

>>712368364
Been a good while since I've seen this chart damn

wtf why are all the retards collecting here at once

>>712378512
But I didn't fail it
>>712378620
How do you figure? The gain from a good roll is double the loss from a bad roll. A single good roll makes up for two bad rolls, and since you are just as likely to get either, you are getting +50% more damage.

>>712378717
you are talking about a different thing than was posted

retard

>1+3=X+2
THIS IS TOO FUCKING HARDDDD

>>712378345
a lot of people make that mistake sometimes
>hm, it deals anywhere between 80-140% damage, that means the average is 120%!

no you silly, the numbers do not magically revolve around 100%. Theres 20 numbers below 100 and 40 numbers above it, the average is at the 30 which is 110%
in the case previously brought up itt :
>50 the possible numbers are below 100
>100 the possible numbers are below 100
>the average is the 75th number, which is 125

your line of thinking would be correct if it said "theres a 50% chance to deal 50% damage and a 50% chance to deal 200% damage"

>>712378921
no, the tool is desmos, A is assigned to x, which is the axis value
nothing is being scaled

>>712379036
>theres a 50% chance to deal 50% damage and a 50% chance to deal 200% damage
but that's what it says

>>712378831
Nah, more seriously, it's:
>0.5 + 2 = 2.5
instead of:
>1 + 1 = 2
You're dealing 20% more damage than if you had all 100% hits.

>>712379036
I can't read any of that shit in the middle, but what does it revolve around if not 100%?

>"theres a 50% chance to deal 50% damage and a 50% chance to deal 200% damage"

are you saying that is different from

>every hit has a 50% chance to deal either 50% or 200% of its damage

because those look completely fucking identical to me

>>712377536
Every time I see stuff like this the extra damage would only be helpful in a handful of situations while the penalty fucks you over every single time.

>>712379187
Where the fuck are you getting 2.5 from? Why are you adding the low roll and the high roll together at all?

>You're dealing 20% more damage than if you had all 100% hits.
Fuck what? 100% hits? What does that mean? How is it 20%?

Looking at this >>712367279 are you sure the formulas are the real ones used by the game and they weren't inferred from fitting curves to manually collected data?

>>712379048
learn to read

retard

>>712377536
>>712379235
It's actually bad for Act 2 as attacks start to approach the damage cap because attacks that would have gone over the damage cap and done 9999 anyway end up doing significantly less
A four-hit attack that does 8k for each attack will deal 32k without roulette (8k+8k+8k+8k)
With roulette, it will deal 4k+4k+10k+10k for only 28k damage

>>712379284
Because half of your rolls will be 0.5x damage and the other half of your rolls will be 2x damage. You can keep going for however many numbers of hits it is. You compare this to what you would be doing if they were all 1x hits instead, since that's what they would normally be. Then you divide 2 by 2.5 to determine the % difference in your damage between the two results.

>>712358604
>has only ever been useless at all levels, or only useful when stacked as high as possible and then overpowered
realistically this is all games.

>>712379616
>Then you divide 2 by 2.5 to determine the % difference in your damage between the two results
Why would you do that at all?

>>712374210
>>712374416
Generally you should have separate multiplier tiers (same time of modifiers would have additive stacking) be invested in equally for the optimal damage
Basically the Maximum Volume problem.

Of course, this can also change a lot if you can't quantify factors like rotation and cooldown.

>>712378093
i want to play RO again fuck you

>>712379831
rentry.org/ragnav

>hmm I just can't figure out why rpgs are so unpopular, maybe if we added more calculus it would help

>God's damage formula

>>712379205
no anon youre getting it wrong
>it picks a random number between 50 and 200
this is one thing
there are 50 numbers to pick from that are below 100
there are 100 numbers to pick from that are above 100
Just like if you were picking from 0 to 150, the average will be the 75th number. the 75th number from 50 to 200 is 125, so you get 125% damage on average

>>712379706
I just proved that this 0.5x/2x shit is a 20% DPS increase over having 1x hits instead.

>>712380070

>>712379931
i prefer low rate servers.
though it would be nice to see what all the newer content was like

>>712380221
It's not picking a random number, it's either cutting damage in half or doubling it.

>>712380345
You didn't prove anything, you wrote out some random shit that had nothing to do with anything at all, then did not explain why you wrote it out when asked.

>>712380491
Good lord. Normally, you would be dealing 2x damage over 2 hits. Instead, you dealt 0.5x on one and 2x on another. Add these together, and what do you get? 2 against 2.5. That's the difference in your damage, then you divide it to figure out the exact % difference.

>>712380436
7x is not low rate enough for you?
Every server I've seen that's lower than that is artificially much higher, either by giving massive party bonuses, boosted tap bonus, exp manuals, floating rates, Monster-of-the-Day, etc. The 7x on Ragna/v/ is a legit 7x.
>though it would be nice to see what all the newer content was like
Yeah there's a lot of new content to check out, it's gone quite a bit beyond the usual pre-re content.

>>712379953
Who are you quoting?

>>712380646
WHERE IS THE 2 COMING FROM

WHERE IS THE 2.5 COMING FROM

YOU STUPID DENSE FUCK, EXPLAIN. >>ELABORATE<<<, DONT JUST CLAIM SHIT, EXPLAIN, WHAT THE FUCK IS IT WITH MATHFAGS AND A TOTAL INABILITY TO SPECIFY OR EXPLAIN ANYTHING AT ALL

>Instead, you dealt 0.5x on one and 2x on another.
What is 2x - 0.5x? 1.5x, if the gain over regular damage was equivalent to the loss (deal 50% or 150% damage) it would cancel itself out and be pointless, assuming rng doesn't fuck you over you should be getting a 50% increase to damage across many hits

>>712380928
Alright, let's simplify things a bit. You need to think of your damage as x. The 2 and 2.5x are the multipliers to x from using your skill, they could be y. x * y would be your damage.

>>712377767
100 * 2 = 200
100 / 2 = 50

Lets say you do 4 hits, that would equal 200*2 + 50*2.
You would be doing 500 damage when you would otherwise be doing 400 damage that is a 25% increase. Its still going to feel bad when you roll low, I would take a consistent damage upgrade instead.

>>712380849
I haven't played in years so I don't know how servers do things now.
I just like getting it as close to the original experience where I end up getting bored once I hit lvl 70-80.

Watching two people who can't do middle school math argue with each other is honestly pretty captivating.

>>712378345
If you are hitting for either 5 or 20 the average damage would be 12.5 not 15 I don't know where you got that from

>>712381403
Worst that can happen is that you hate it and go play your comfort game instead. Could try asking the dev if he can make it more miserable for you, I'm sure he'd be okay with that.

>>712381249
Notation doesn't simply things. I never understood this, why the fuck does math use symbols for values instead of just using the values themselves? Why this x+y shit? It's adding a massive layer of complexity to it for no reason. Imagine you want to bake a cake but the fucking cookbook keeps calling teaspoons K and eggs P, it's retarded.

>>712381260
I don't get how it's 25% when the difference between a low roll and a high roll is 50% over 100%. You low roll, you are 50% in debt, you roll high, you are +150%.

>>712381684
Legit smooth brained take.
I'm curious, Anon. What do you do for a living?

>>712381684
Notation is a physical representation of the steps you need to take to do the math. You're doing algebra when you're adding the cost together of several items at the grocery store. You can apply a notation to the price of every item that would determine the quantity of each item. The notation is just you showing that long-form rather than skipping around mentally.

>>712381684
If you roll low, you lose half of your attack power (-50%)
If you roll high, you gain +100% of attack power
100 > 50, you win bigger than you lose
attack 100 low roll => 50
attack 100 high roll => 200
2 normal attack should be 200, here it's 250, so 25% increase

>>712381969
>You can apply a notation to the price of every item that would determine the quantity of each item
Or I could just use the names of the items themselves like a sane person.

>>712367279
>when mathlets think posting a graph will save them
why did you post a 2D graph for a 3 variable problem? you turned one variable into a constant and then wonder why the flattened output is basically a line. you're missing the 3rd dimension.

but you don't need a graph to understand what the purpose of the formulas are. the conditionals give away the intent and knowing that these are game formulas you can guess at how they modify the output.

>>712382179
>100 > 50, you win bigger than you lose
It's 150

>>712381684
it's so that it can represent any number you put in there, for example any amount of health and any amount of damage, rather than a specific amount

>>712382284
The 25% increase is compared to the attack if it was normal without the gimmik, not difference between low and high roll

>>712381684
20 / 5 = 4
This means its 400% more damage overall not 150%

>>712367089
I don’t really understand whats wrong with this. Is the midwit flex here that you can just use a case or a switch? Cause it really doesn’t matter

>>712382193
I don't mean for each item, but it'd be like HamA and CheeseB with A being 2 and B being 3 for the amount of each you bought, with their prices being replacements for their names. The point is that's the math you do in your head and it's algebra, and that's all notation expresses.

Good rpg’s have stats affect things they need to in variation, like speed minimally increasing strength and strength barely increasing def.

>>712382565
I know, that's what I mean.

100 x 4 = 400

50 x 2 + 200 x 2 = 500

I don't get it, where the fuck is the phantom 25% difference going? The loss on a bad roll is 50%, the gain on a good roll is 100%, there's a 50% difference between them so logically your overall net gain should be 50%.

>>712382765
How about inertia?

100 integers from random.org
47 * 50 = 2350
53 * 200 = 10600
2350 + 10600 = 12950
12950 / 100 = 129,5

it trends towards 125

>>712381684
>Why this x+y shit?
Because it's universal. If Gaben told you he'd give you a AAA game 20% off if you buy an indie game first, then how much you have to spend to get these two games is the price of the indie game plus 0.8 times the price of the AAA game. We can represent this with something like (indie) + 0.8(AAA), or we can shorten it so it doesn't look so weird to just something like n+0.8(a), or x+0.8y, it doesn't matter what representatives we use so long as we know what the representatives stand for. This is superior to just saying what the prices for the games are because not every game has the same price, right? Indie games can vary from $10 to $40. AAA games can vary from $50 to $80. But that's fine because our formula doesn't change since it's agnostic to whichever values you plug into it. So x+0.8(y) could be $10+0.8($50) = $50 or it could be $40+0.8($80) = $104. Do you understand?
>I don't get how it's 25%
Let's say Normal Dude swings twice, each for 100% damage. Then Wild Dude swings twice, once for 50% damage and once for 100% damage. That's
Normal: 100 + 100 = 200
Wild: 50 + 200 = 250

What is that increase? A 50 increase to 200 is what? Well, 50 is 25% of 200, right? That means he's doing a +25% increase to damage on average (or over time).

>>712383032
But overall you're only doing 20% more damage. 25% more from the starting point, sure, but the number's only 20% higher.

>>712382661
switch isn't just a shorthand for the same thing, it's a special instruction in the CPU which is orders of magnitudes faster

>>712383190
and also string comparisons are slow as fuck, you should make it an enum so you're just doing a single integer compare, it's lightspeed compared to an endless if/else tree of strings

even then if you have too many cases, you should split everything out into a state machine or proper tree structure which is even faster since it doesn't evaluate everything at once

>>712369902
So am I, and this >>712372918 is the right direction. Consider how you want it to play, then build around that. How long will the fights take? How many enemies will be in a fight?

Additionally, avoid using small numbers, and you can implement both percentage resistance and flat damage resistance. I try to code my stats so they're easy for the player to decipher, such as 10 vitality = 10 health or something similar.

>>712382892
>100 x 4 = 400
>50 x 2 + 200 x 2 = 500
>I don't get it, where the fuck is the phantom 25% difference going?
>400
>500
>where the fuck is the phantom 25% difference
Anon...500 is how much larger than 400?
>The loss on a bad roll is 50%, the gain on a good roll is 100%, there's a 50% difference between them
No there isn't. That's -50 and +100. The difference clearly isn't 50, it's 150. Add -50 to 100, or in other words, subtract 50 from 100. You get 50. And since it was two swings to get these results, divide them in half. What is half of 50?

>>712383167
Why is that, anon?

>>712358256
if your balance is so off you're integrating discontinuous functions to try to make it work, just scrap the whole system

>>712383563
The difference between -50 and +100 is 50%. Good roll, +100%, bad roll, -50%, you are at +50%
>And since it was two swings to get these results, divide them in half.
Why the fuck would you divide it in half every two swings?

>>712358105 (OP)
Cause they don't know maths

>>712382661
You don't need that many if statements its inefficient, also with string comparison you need to check every single symbol

>>712382892
>Does the math
>Still confused
I am really sorry to tell you this anon but you are terminally retarded

>>712367089
I don't really understand coding, but this seems like something a 17yo would do for a highschool project

>>712383658
Because, using your example, 200 is 80% of 250. Enemies have static HP values. They only care about what % of damage you're doing to their HP bar, not how much more damage you're doing relatively. If you really want to factor in everything, then if the enemy has 300 HP, you deal 66% of their HP with 200, and 83% of their HP with 250, so the difference in damage is about 17%.

>/v/ learning about game theory
You guys have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes.

>>712384376
game theory and game balance have quite literally nothing to do with each other at all

>>712371071
The main problem is math never got updated
Every language evolved over the centuries. Math is still thousands of years old

>>712383894
>Why the fuck would you divide it in half every two swings?
To get the average for a single swing? If you're going to compare it to normal damage, then you also need to include what normal damage does in two swings.
100% + 100% = 200%
50% + 200% = 250%
That's a "50%" increase but that's because it's tacked onto 200%, anon. It's not actually a 50% increase, it's half that, because it's spread across two swings (that's why it's 200%, remember? 100+100?)

>>712384374
Sure, that's true, but that's relative. Like if you gave your queen in chess double damage, obviously it does nothing because everyone dies in one hit, but it's still true that as a matter of fact your queen does double damage...it just doesn't matter. Obviously, in most games, every damage increase matters 99% of the time. In most video games, you don't kill enemies in a couple hits.

>>712371071
I hate to break it to you anon, but it's mostly a matter of intelligence and intelligence has been declining for over a century.

>>712371071
/lit/ is all you need.

>>712385140
You do kill most random encounters in a couple of hits, even in harder games, since they tend to be more about killing the enemy before they can kill you. It's true that in bosses it hardly matters; if your character is dealing 25% more damage you're still killing the boss 25% faster with their actions. Nonetheless in games with heavy resource management, you are generally thinking about your character's attacks in proportion to how much of the enemy's HP bar they can deal; you won't use the expensive nuke that does 5x the enemies HP in damage for 100 MP when something 1/5th the price will do the job.

>>712358105 (OP)

Reading this thread with the anon struggling with the math made me realise how fucked my schooling was too.
And how much I have forgotten since graduating.

Feels pretty shitty the difference in quality between rural and city schools. Never had a chance basically

>>712386056
Yeah when I saw that formula I didn't even bother trying to understand that fucking nonsense. Went straight for the conversion chart.

>>712358105 (OP)
i don't know what any of this means

>>712386348
All you need to know is that more armour means less damage taken. The math does not really matter.

>>712365469
its never to late to learn something,just download some middle schol math books and start there or remain ignorant and happy

I think we are cooked as a species
Younger gen is struggling with basic math and reading skills. How the fuck We are We meant to keep society going with everyone being retarded

>>712386614
>its never to late to learn something
Factually wrong

Imagine you have a currency, lets call it "Divine". and another currency, called "Chaos". 1 divine is equal to 100 chaos. If someone is trying to sell an item for 1.8 divines, can you calculate how much you will pay in divines and Chaos?
A lot of people in Path of Exile cant, and ask every single day in chat how to do so.

>>712386885
1 divine 180 chaos

I took calculus in high school and it was honestly pretty easy. Genetics was the hardest course I ever took.

>>712387314
>he had genetics in high school
Wtf

rate my damage mitigation curve

In the us, you guys dont take calculus? reading this thread is kind of crazy because like the math discussed here is quite simple

>>712363273
>Japanese games have much better game design than Western ones.
There's no reason to think this
JRPGs are full of archaic and vestigal game mechanics that serve no purpose to the game itself but are only there because they've been in JRPGs since the 80s

>>712369417
Your individual abilities do no affect the curriculum

>>712387562
Nope, that's for undergrads. You finish high school with algebra lol

>>712387372
Was part of an extracurricular I did.
My SAT was pretty shit btw. Only got a 1210. I barely paid attention in classes, only the ones I heard were hard because I liked doing stupid courses. My English score was somehow perfect so you could tell how bad the math one was. The highest at my school was only a 1380 though and that guy was valedictorian.

>>712358105 (OP)
>do 90% of your attack if your attack is more than 8 times their defense
nigga they should be shredded at that point
just call enemy.sunder()

>>712387562
I didn’t even do chemistry. I did well in biology but I did environmental science because
>I didn’t care about high school
>it was easy
>we could fuck around more in that class
I got into UGA anyway which was THE party school and I had a blast there so I don’t really regret it.

>>712387562
>>712387703
My school only had algebra in the last year.

>>712387703
interesting, because in Canada while its not mandatory to take calculus most people who go into stem have to take it. But I hear that in the US the grading scheme is maybe more difficult because for us a 80% is an A- but in the US it would be like a B or B- not sure. So you guys might still have it harder based on that.

>>712387562
>>712387703
I learned calculus in high school 20 years ago.

>funnels players towards other forms of physical damage mitigation

>>712385450
>You do kill most random encounters in a couple of hits
I was under the impression most anons here were talking about MMOs. In MMOs, you grind sacks of HP. You most certainly do not kill them in a couple hits. But this is honestly irrelevant since I'm not the one who made that argument. You should be arguing with the idiot who's trying to say 250 is 20% larger than 200, not me.
>you won't use the expensive nuke that does 5x the enemies HP in damage for 100 MP when something 1/5th the price will do the job
No shit.

>>712387701
Your individual abilities do affect whether you skip grades or stay back. Also, I literally pointed out in another post how the smarter half of the class took Algebra in 8th grade while the dumber half didn't. And I'm pretty sure that's how it works across the country.

>>712387562
>>712388170
I should mention that it was an advanced placement class, so most people don't learn it.

>>712387562
My school, you had to take Geometry, Algebra 1 and Algebra 2, there was Calculus available and Algebra 2 covered a lot of what was considered Pre-Calc.

>>712388170
>20 years ago.
Yeah that's why
Kids are morons compared to you now

>>712388185
>makes other forms of defenses better against the only thing it works against while they guard against everything in the case of ES

If you want a blackpill go read /r/teachers
Something is seriously wrong with anyone under 25

I don’t understand anything in this thread. I dropped out of highschool and don’t know my times tables.

>>712388786
Get a printed out times table fridge magnet or painting
Helps a lot

>>712388185
>BLOCK
>BLOCK
>BLOCK
>CRIT HEADSHOT

>>712389019
Classic DLC2.

>>712386885
Why is there calculation in the game at all? Why do devs think people engaging in a leisure activity want to do math, something most people despise and avoid as much as possible? Imagine you are eating a delicious piece of chocolate cake and railing a hot milf and some retard suddenly jams a math formula in your face and refuses to let you continue until you figure it out. It's fucking stupid and antithetical to an activity you do FOR FUN.

>>712386885
Wait, that's why these people are asking all the time? Holy shit.

>>712387562
mathtard here still trying to find the phantom 25%, grew up in rural Washington, never took any of these classes or even had classes to choose from, we just had "math" period

>>712358105 (OP)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dragon Quest < Wizardry

>>712388185
what the fuck is mitigation

>>712377908
Jesus Christ, is this the state of modern education?

>>712387563
>JRPGs are full of archaic and vestigal game mechanics that serve no purpose to the game itself but are only there because they've been in JRPGs since the 80s

You're right but I wouldn't call JRPGs "archaic". JRPGs are by definition that way. It's done on purpose because that's EXACTLY what JRPG players want. If the devs start changing too much the game won't be a JRPG anymore and instead will become an action RPG or cRPG or something else.

JRPG players have no idea what RPGs stand for and are autistic retards that play visual novels with combat minigames with the purpose of seeing the numbers rise. That's why the core stat griding gameplay hasn't changed for the past 40 years and became the feature that makes a game a JRPG, just like jumping makes Mario and Sonic platformers.

>>712386885
>1 divine is equal to 100 chaos. If someone is trying to sell an item for 1.8 divines, can you calculate how much you will pay in divines and Chaos?
no, not really, because decimals are fucking stupid and a horrible way to convey information, just increase the amount of 0's to make it more sensible and then reduce them at the end

instead of 1-100, do 100-10,000; 180 divines = 18,000 chaos, now reduce it and you get 180 chaos

>>712389575
I'm 37, blow it out your ass

>>712358105 (OP)
I'm a game developer and i HAVE no idea what the fuck is this. I make games I'm not a mathematician big retard.

>>712389413
>never took any of these classes or even had classes to choose from, we just had "math" period
Same for me in australia. I didn't even know calculus or algebra was a thing till I was our of high school for 5 or so years

>>712384376
That book is not about "Game Theory" as formely defined in Mathematics (it touches the subject but it's mainly a talking about different things).

>>712384376
The people who write this stuff never actually make anything successful themselves, and when you ask actually successful artists about their endeavors, they don't understand any of this shit. Which makes you wonder: do these guys know what they're talking about?

>>712390253
in Canada its different. in the last year of school we have advanced functions and calculus and vectors.

>>712374798
>>712368364
Since nobody bothered to explain the origins and the effect of the original damage formula, let me fill you guys in:

This is the damage formula for all souls games plus Elden Ring. All enemies including bosses have a % absorption/reduction for each attack's category (slash, pierce, etc), and element (magic, lightning, etc). They also have what the souls nerds like to call as "Flat Defense" for everything mentioned above, and the Flat Defense is what goes into this formula to determine the final damage number.

Basically, it makes slower, harder hitting spells and weapons good while making fast hitting spells and weapons, AND weapons with split damage bad, especially at high NG+ cycles (since Flat Defense increases as you accumulate NG+ cycles).

We call it Flat Defense because a good way to approximate the curve of this damage formula is just to subtract the FD from your weapon attack. So there's a (in)famous weapon in dark souls 3 called Dancer's Enchanted Swords, it does both slash, magic, and fire damage. It is thus the biggest noob trap because the weapon has a very high Attack Rating while doing very piss-poor damage in reality due to this formula. There's another example in Elden Ring which is Sword of Night and Flame which does mixed damage in the same way. There're also spell examples, Collapsing Stars is a spell that does 10*49 magic damage to enemies, and while it has one of the highest motion values per cast, its damage is shit in reality, often losing to Comet, which is a single hit 267 magic MV spell.

>>712361148
Because they have to account for the fact you can stack this 10x and trivialize that one boss that does only cold damage or something

>all these dumb reply
this is why india are beating you

>>712389784
You can't defend bad game design by saying the players are also retarded

>>712377148
How tf is it complex? Do you know what it means for a number to be less than another number? Do you know what it means for a number to be equal to another number? Do you know what 'or' means? Congratulations, you understand <=.

>>712390908
I don’t touch power lines while standing on top of trains.

Here's my damage formula:

if (nigger)
{
damage = damage *2;
} else { damage = damage;
}

>>712373804
Increased or More Spell Damage
Nearby, Nearby, Nearby or Nearby

Guess the game.

>>712391298
based java enjoyer

>>712358105 (OP)
Because they suck
Attack should just be ATTACK DAMAGE = playerATTACK - enemyDEFENSE with some extra fluff for modifiers

>>712358105 (OP)
because that's damage calculation for a dogshit gacha game that needs to be balanced like that to sustain their garbage monetization model where they need to release a trillion characters

>/v/ exposing themselves as bumfuck retards ITT

>>712383798
The function is continuous and he's not integrating anything.

This shit is why I have no idea how anything in Warframe works. I just copy people’s builds or just throw some number go up mods on and call it a day.

>>712391298
float damage = weaponAttack * enemyMelanin;

>>712368493
retard

My hot take is that defense values are bad game design. I've never seen a single rpg where attack, defense, and hp values correlate in an intuitive way beyond higher attack vs lower defense mean more damage. They each handle it slightly differently anyway, so you'd never know how much damage you're actually going to do without looking up the formula online.

Attack should just tell you how much damage your basic attack will subtract from the enemies HP. Instead of higher defense, enemies could just have higher HP since effectively the same thing, and it's much more intuitive.

>>712391653
i dont even know how to multiply basic numbers. is this really that bad?

>>712391950
Games just need to go the TTRPG route
Baldur's Gate 3 is just AC and raw damage and people understood it immediatelly

>>712392003
I would consider needing a calculator to play video games bad.

>>712392003
Same bro. I actually struggle adding and subtracting a little bit too. I have number dyslexia. Have always felt like a retard because of it and was always super embarrassed in math class.

>>712389946
I'm 38 and went to a public school in Mississippi. My point stands, you were the child that was supposed to be left behind.

>>712392131
I would consider a videogame bad if it needs a calculator.

>>712391950
Rts games like age of empires 2 often just have a simple damage_done = damage - armour. Though they also have a ton of armour types in that game that add or subtract flat bonus damage still it's only basic addition and subtraction

>>712392003
Do you not know how to multiply at all, or simply did not memorize the multiplication table? There is a huge difference between those in my opinion.

>>712392551
i know how to do the basic multiplications like 8x7 for example but if its complicated i struggle, i also dont memorize it and try to do it in my head each time because my brain is not good for memorization

import Math;
import Entity;
Import Item;

int attack;
int defense;

if (defense > attack) {
Entity.takeDamage(0);
}
else if (defense < attack) {
Entity.takeDamage(attack - defense);
}
else if (Entity.itemInHand = !Item.Mundane) {
Entity.takeDamage((attack * 1.25) - defense);
}
else if (Entity.itemInHand = Item.Properites.isPiercing) {
Entity.takeDamage((attack * 2) - defense);
}

>>712391950
The reason you have a "45 DEF" stat instead of "+32 HP" is because it's cooler.

>>712392721
You might wanna take the 2 and 1.25 into preprocessor directives. Other than that looking good codebro

Why the fuck do games have shit like:
>50% Fire Resistance
Then also have stupid generic defense (which is literally 90% of the time could just be called physical resistance) But feel the need to make it flat number stat that has some spaghetti equation when they already have a system that works for elemental damage?
Why the fuck is:
>Defense 17312 = 65.78% damage reduction
Also exist when you are clearly able to balance flat % based elemental shit that simply has stronger enemies have % damage pen.

>>712358105 (OP)
It's 10%, 10% plus some, 70% minus some, 90% minus some, 90%.
I feel like the last one is the most retarded. Why not just make it 100%.

>>712392925
because of muh tradition of not wanting to have players knowing their stats

>>712392917
NTA but is preprocessor directive like the #define in C for example? what advantage does it offer? I havent programmed in a while

>>712392925
Because they're essentially trying to make defense linear, and expressing that linearization as a % becomes incomprehensible
So if 1 defense adds 5% effective hit points, expressing that extra effective hit points as damage reduction gives you a very unintuitive formula
Really they should be just giving you extra hit points

>>712382661
something i noticed is that if insanity is true, then no matter what the results are, the action the code does is this. weapon, blood, yadda yadda yadda, doesn't matter.

>>712358105 (OP)
The only numbers I can't figure out a reason for are the fractions being multiplied with the squares. Where did they get numbers like 19.2/49 from? The numbers inside the squares correspond to the ranges to ensure the function is continuous. The .1, .7, .9 are arbitrary but reasonable (i.e. 10%, 70%, 90% of atk).

>>712377505
It's not that crazy aside from the seemingly arbitrary fraction.

>>712393151
Yeah, #define in C is exactly it. It makes later modifying the code much easier for others. Say if you don't want piercing to do double damage anymore, you can just change the numbers at the top of the file just like changing values in a class. Rather than ctrl+Fing pierce all over the place

>+stat% modifier, like +20% damage
>no indication of whether it's additive or multiplicative
This feels like it happens way more often than it should.

>>712389413
>the phantom 25%
Normal Guy and Wild Guy each take two swings at the enemy.
Normal Guy does 10 and 10 again, for a total of 20.
Wild Guy does 5 (because 10 - 50%) and 20 (because 10 x 2) for a total of 25.
25 is how much bigger than 20? It's 5 bigger, what's 5 out of 20? What's 25 divided by 20? Or in other words, 5 divided by 4?
This is like 7th grade math.

>>712361148
why are zoomoids unaware of '?'

>>712393653
The formulas are designed so that they each represent one of five thresholds and intersect with the neighbouring formulas at the specific thresholds.

>>712391653
/v/ will have threads like this but then they'll have threads where everyone's 6' tall, makes 100k a year from home doing nothing, has slept with half a dozen girls, and is Immortal in Dota, and they CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE that anyone else here isn't.

But they can't do middle school math.

>>712394154
>middle school
This is more like first 3 months of STEM

The worst game mechanics of all time award?

>>712394145
I understand that part. That's straight forward from the values being subtracted from the atk/def ratio. I'm curious about the specific constants that are used inside, the 19.2/49, the -0.4/3, and the -0.8/121.

>>712358105 (OP)
That's why I like games like Fire Emblem. It's just Attack - Defense. There's plenty of subtle depth and the ceiling for strategy is high but the shit that needs to be basic is basic instead of mega autism simulator for fags.

>>712394274
OP's post, yes. I'm talking about the other conversation.

>>712390748
>rollslop has retarded armour mechanics that only serve to make some things noob bait
Why did this shit get hyped?

>>712394643
Ah, yeah.
That faggot's got to be some kind of retarded dropout or something.

JRPGs are a joke, they just do it because they don't know of anything better. Someone did it once they keep repeating the pattern

>>712367089
because it's midwits flexing the same way retards like to correct you and say tomatoes are actually berries. It doesn't matter at all and it's a great way to weed out the actual retards.
I worked on game dev and heard billions of "advice" and "professionals" saying that something is faster than something else... yea by less than a millisecond, so who the fuck cares?!

>>712394417
They're just calculated to make the formulas match up. It's nothing complicated, someone just did the math to say "if we want the formulas to intersect here, and we want them to have a polynomial curve, then the constants need to be these."

>>712373804

>>712395939
>yea by less than a millisecond, so who the fuck cares?!
All those milliseconds add up
Your the reason everything is a slow piece shit even though we have pocket supercomputers

>>712369417
you learn about piecewise functions before calc 1 usually

>>712397538
Well we didn't
I think you must have went to a good private school

>>712397596
no I actually dropped out of high school and I did grade 11 and 12 math in college and im doing calc 1 as part of my first term of my program this year lol

if you have to balance your game, the premise is broken. the moment you start balancing, you're contributing to sunk costs.

>>712363183
Armor in Fallout 1/2 is interesting because you can see how it originated with GURPS, since DR is identical between systems and the % reduction is roughly equivalent to the number of hits you'd deflect with PD.

>>712387562
Calc isn't part of the default curriculum. I was 2 years ahead in math so I took calc. Not AP though (college calc) because I was kicked out of honors.

This thread truly explains the absolute state of /v/.

>>712393746
its not crazy but its nonsensically pointless. why go for all of that when the end result is basically a straight line? you could unironically have a linear function doing just about the same purpose

>>712397538
>>712397596
what does it even mean to "learn about piecewise functions"? assuming you know what a function is, just looking at >>712358748
should tell you what it does. there's a lot of complex shit in math but that isn't one of them

easy

>>712391148
No, but you can explain why bad game design exists and a lot of the time it's because the consumers are retarded.

>>712369669
Anything higher than Algebra 2 is optional or simply not taught, what fucking country teaches calc 2 in high school as a mandatory class

>>712397963
Not really, if you have a ton of shit some things are going to pass through and might need a bit of a balance pass. The actual problems come when you do dumb shit like only buffing things when the simpler solution would be to do like a few targeted nerfs. Doing only buffs causes basically an internal arms race of buffs between enemies and the player to try and keep things remotely sane.

>>712391365
I got no clue, what is it?

For me, it's Mochizuki-Sensei's Inter-Universal Teichmuller Theory.
https://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~motizuki/Inter-universal%20Teichmuller%20Theory%20I.pdf

>>712358105 (OP)
Part of the reason I like fire emblem to be honest. The stats and damage calculation just fucking make sense.
Damage is unit's attack minus the defender's defense. Occasionally with some x2 or x3 multipliers for effective damage or whatever.
Its great, you know the exact value of what every stat point is worth, you know exactly how much of an improvement that cool special sword is over another one.

>>712404062
It works for simple games like that.

But it doesn't work for MOBAS, Exile-likes, etc.

>>712373804
>>712374670
>don't know if bonuses are additive or multiplicative
>take all the bonuses anyway
>deal more damage

>>712404627
what if you don't have enough points in total to get all the damage skills?

>game with 100+ heroes
>every hero has custom damage vs every other hero
>heroes only counter each other if they're designed to
>create most balanced game in the world
Why wouldn't this work and why hasn't it been done?

>>712404872
just feel it out. If it's single player, I'll beat it anyway. If it's multiplayer then ranking will put me against people operating on my level no matter how optimized I am.

>>712405056
That's Dota

>>712405056
The problem is with that many heroes you have too many variables. Inevitably someone's going to be the king of their niche. Helps a lot better to trim the total cast to like 30 or so.