Thread 712376685

How did Kojima do it? And why was it so much better than TPP

It wasn't

>>712376685 (OP)
>$40
Still one of the greatest heists in history

>>712376685 (OP)
I've done a recent replay of both and I don't understand this perspective that Ground Zeroes was somehow superior at ALL.

>30 minutes of gameplay
I think I only played this because it was on Games with Gold but still, this was cheeky. This was one of many early signs pre Death Stranding that he was a functional retard. Either that or Konami were being greedy as par for the course.

>>712376685 (OP)
do i have to play peace walker first?

>>712377469
Peace walker is godawful so, no.

>>712376685 (OP)
Camp Omega is complex and makes for a fun sneaking experience. Definitely a lot better than wide open spaces with basic shacks.

>>712376685 (OP)
>tons of cover and blind spots
>rain, night and coats give a reasonable excuse for your sneaking ability
>progressing and reaching checkpoints triggers new patrols
>all your resources are acquired on the field, suppressors being finite
>heavily narrative driven objectives, no throwaway busywork
>you need to secure a route to the helicopter when extracting prisoners instead of popping magic balloons anywhere

>>712376685 (OP)
Because it didn't waste gameplay mechanics on a shitty open world with mind-numbing busywork tasks and timewasting travell, and had a proper map to build stealth encounters around instead of slapdash camps with 0 focus or direction. It also didn't insist on padding its playtime beyond what the gameplay and level design can deliver.
>>712376743
peak shit taste
>>712377127
Because you don't care about stealth gameplay and are only there for the cinematic kojima experience.

>>712376685 (OP)
>why was it so much better
they worked within their means, the smaller area was much better than the empty "open world" meme that he thought was so important for TPP. much more detailed, much more intense sneaking when you get caught and you're in an enclosed space and can't just fuck off and run into the empty desert where no one tries to pursue you and no consequence occurs for failure. also the fact that it was intentionally made to have the same tone as other Metal Gear games, kind of a greatest hits of Metal Gear tropes, wheras TPP was the anti-Metal Gear game subverting those tropes.

>>712377323
it was pretty much done because Konami was getting antsy about how long it was taking because the 80 year old suits who ran the company back then didn't understand anything about video games or that a lot of that development was spent on creating the engine which was meant to be used for all of Konami's future titles, they just wanted a return on investment now.

>>712377516
Lol so few people are willing to be honest about this. I commend you.

>>712377883
>peak shit taste
Sorry you fell for a 40$ tech demo and feel the need to shill it 11 years later because you still feel guilty about losing all that money for 25 minutes of gameplay. TPP is the second best game in the franchise and only troons think otherwise.

>>712376685 (OP)
It isn’t. You can tell its a work in progress. TTP’s gameplay is was more smooth.

>>712377104
why didn't you pirate it

>>712378087
>Sorry you fell for a 40$ tech demo
I got both as part of a package deal for like 8 bucks half a decade after release. Sorry you fell for the hype machine and spent over a decade coping over the fact that you've convinced yourself into glazing a dogshit excuse for a "stealth" game.

>>712378087
idk why you're so mad
tpp is the best game in the series and ground zeroes was extremely fun
i pirated ground zeroes the first week it was out and played it for 10+ hours

literally the only good game in the series

>>712376685 (OP)
>demo is better than the full album

>>712377801
suppressors are still finite in the main game unless you upgrade them enough, but by then youve likely completed all/most of the missions

>>712378496
*calls in a supply drop/tells quiet to scout an outpost* nothin' personnel kid

>>712378179
I didn't know that was a thing in 2014. Also I didn't wanna make Koji-sama sad.

>>712378875
ok. suppressors are still finite

It's a two hour slice at best and there are enemy outposts of similar size in the full game.

>>712376685 (OP)
Because it was actually an open level, which makes more sense than an open world. Every part of the level influences another, the base has its own routines, guards will abandon posts from different locations to investigate other parts. The vehicles make more sense gameplay wise too.

>>712378087
TPP loses to MGS3, 4 and GZ gameplay wise
It loses to pretty much every MGS as an entire package

>>712376743
FPBP

>>712376685 (OP)
TPP was unfinished due Konami cuckery

>>712378121
I swear the only argument TPPfags have to diminish GZ is that Snake has a funny animation when he dives from above instead of a smooth one. Really, that's all there is.

TPP is actually the unfinished game. GZ does everything it sets out to do perfectly, Camp Omega is very well crafted.

>>712379272
Size != quality
Camp Omega stands far above anything MGSV has to offer from a level design and craft perspective
Then the game design is also far better in GZ because of >>712377801 and other reasons

TPP is stupid

>>712379272
There's really only the airport

>>712379768
kind of but Kojima also shit the bed and mismanaged the project trying to make a game bigger than what he could actually accomplish with the resources he had. i don't really blame them for forcing the game to be released when it was still showing no signs of being as done as Kojima wanted.

>>712376685 (OP)
The controls definitely aren't as refined as TPP, Snake feels "off" to control compared to TPP where he feels butter smooth and the best 3rd person action movement of all time.

in GZ I guess they were still refining the inputs or something

>>712376685 (OP)
It’s not. Codetalker’s mansion, Skull Face’s compound, the Honey Bee caves, and the African oil refinery were all as well-designed as Camp Omega. Add on to that all the mechanics TPP tossed in (weapon customization, loadouts, camo, dynamic weather, wildlife, recruitment) and it’s objectively better.

>>712376685 (OP)
It felt like shit to play after TPP and doing the same level over and over gets stale

>>712380194
>Codetalker’s mansion
>Skull Face’s compound
>Honey Bee caves
>African oil refinery
>as well-designed as Camp Omega
Holy fucking shit LMAO

I don't care if it's supposed to be some epic bait thread but I agree with OP; I wish TPP was this x5 or some-- open approaches on a more tightly designed stealth mission setting
Le Epic Motherbase MKII construction and the nonsensical and boring weapon research system weren't worth it at all, and the open world was only okay

>>712380116
That's literally all TPP has over GZ. Weird Snake inertia, or something. Meanwhile GZ is just a game with actual design instead of a retarded sandbox with no actual intent where autists will just throw smokes on cars to exploit AI's inability to see through, take down entire camps like this and with other stupid tricks while sprinting around, then post the video on Youtube and call this PEAK GAMEPLAY PEAK OPERATOR

I hate brainlets who think TPP having an option to stun someone by calling supplies on their head means good gameplay. Or all the cardboard box bullshit that's just funny to watch but doesn't translate to anything interesting gameplay wise. 1000 tricks, but no game design at all. Infinite resupplies and suppressors is such an obvious issue.

>>712380116
>in GZ I guess they were still refining the inputs or something
yes, i remember one of the producers was even taking feedback on twitter about stuff like Snake's movement and the controls

>>712380349
yes.mp3

>>712380524
You realize this picture makes you look worse, right? Well, your first post was already retarded enough to dismiss.

Ground Zeros is the worst mainline MGS game.

>>712380585
It shows I played both to completion, and know the games inside and out. Whereas your post was… baseless insults?

Fulton is an objective downgrade.
Camo is retarded and adds nothing except the heavy suit. This one is actually good.
Loadouts are meaningless and resupplies make them pointless. Resupplies in general make the game a LOT worse.
Short mission based structure is also inferior to the big main GZ mission generally speaking. Imagine playing through 10 main missions like that.

>>712380585
How does him showing he's played the games make his opinion look worse, honey?

>>712380524
>snoy is retarded
Many such cases.

>>712379671
MGSV and MGS4 have objectively better gameplay than MGS3.

>>712377883
i have literally just played through the one zeroes mission to prepare for my mgsv replay and you're full of fucking shit
NO ONE gives a shit about the side missions and without those this is just like any other camp

>>712380659
>>712380709
Platinuming TPP, the objectively worst game in the series with the most copy/pasted levels/gameplay, instead of actually finishing Revengeance (which is actually pretty good) is an obvious red flag.

Hell, forget Revengeance. Platinuming TPP alone shows me you don't value your time, or your intelligence.

>>712380524
>didn't platinum revengeance
do you really expect us to take your opinion seriously?

>>712380791
They have better controls, but MGS3 beats both in game design/level/content.

I'd love to replay MGS3 right now. Would be some great 15-20 hours. I'd fucking hate replaying MGSV.

>>712380524
>no trophies on MGR
Peak casual.

>>712380706
TRVKE

FACT: TPP would have been well received if it was more like GZ.

>>712380706
>Camo is retarded and adds nothing

>kojima as vp of konami charges 30 bucks for a glorified demo
If EA or Ubisoft did this, /v/ and the gaming community at large would be pissing blood, but it's Kojima so he gets away with everything.

>>712380905
MGS3 levels are way more linear than the ones in MGS4 and MGSV, and having to open the menu to change camo and heal wounds is annoying as fuck. Enemy AI is also way better in the later games.
>content
Kill you're self.

>>712380990
you mean having a plot?

The Chico Paz tapes made me so fucking hard bros.

>>712381008
Yes. You have 3 choices:
>Sneaking Suit, objectively the best one, trivializes the game in a lot of ways
>Heavy Suit, for combat, actually good addition
>Regular suit: just pick "sand" themed ones for Afghanistan and "grass" themed ones for Africa. If you pick any other it'll SLIGHTLY make you easier to find but not significantly. You will not alter your gameplay in any way to fit these. In fact you'll probably just play the Sneaking Suit

By the way, GZ was actually hard. Guards could actually see you from decent distance, they were almost too strong. And GZ had an actual hard mode, not that fake [EXTREME] shit TPP had.

>>712380826
>>712380857
I, like 99% of the world, played multiplats on the 360. I tried Revengeance on PS3 and returned it for the 360 copy. Cope.

>>712381108
>kills Castlevania by trying to make it a God of War clone
>mismanages and abandons Zone of the Enders
>tries to turn Silent Hill into his own vanity project
He makes cool games but he clearly is not good at management.

>>712381197
Plot, gameplay, game design, characters. Artistic intent. GZ is dark and touches some hard themes.

>>712381164
If I replay MGS3, it'll be a blast, there are tons of different levels and different situations I'll find myself in. Yes, they're somewhat linear (zone 1 followed by zone 2 then 3...) compared to more open ended areas, but that doesn't make them worse, at all in fact. Fuck that open world noise.

>>712381245
Refer to

>Hell, forget Revengeance. Platinuming TPP alone shows me you don't value your time, or your intelligence.

>>712381210
>didn't even unlocked the Parasite Suit
Rumao.

>>712379671
lol what a fucking cope. MGSV is lvdo kino. I know this all is a contrarian troon campaign but still

>>712381464
TPP is a better game than Revengeance, so that’s not an own.

TPP also ruined MGO.
Fucking soulless game.

>>712381379
>a blast

why did they drop her?

>>712381379
so yes, plot
don't bullshit with the gameplay, it's basically the same

>>712381164
>unironically using linear as a flaw
way to out yourself retard

>>712381530
Not really. Even if it was, platinuming it means subjecting yourself to dozens of hours of meaningless crap. TPP is good (not great, good) for 10 hours, and then not so much.

>>712381523
Enjoy your copy pasted outposts, faggot. Enjoy Fulton trivializing everything. Enjoy running around outposts and knocking out all the guards like it's a fucking CoD game, but since you're doing it using some stupid gimmicks it's fine.

>>712380484
I knew this was some contrarian troon campaign against niggas having fun with TPP on youtube.

Camp Omega is the best single location of the duology but the variety of mission, number of added features, and number of similar locations to visit was better in TPP. The oil refinery and afghani village where you rescue Kaz put together are almost as good as Camp Omega and they are only two locations in the game.

>>712381523
TPP had some issues but the people overselling GZ are just dumb as bricks. Just a 30 minute tech demo with a very edgy plot, which doesn't work since even torture porn needs more time to actually make a meaningful impact.

>>712381671
Nope. The controls are more or less the same (actually TPP has slightly better controls), the GAMEPLAY (level, design, limitations, rules) is far better in GZ. TPP would have been 10 times better if it was just a lot of Camp Omegas, even without plot.

>>712381523
actually preferring mgs v is the contrarian take

>>712381585
Wasn't good enough at blowjob.

>>712381789
you play camp omega the same way you would anything in tpp unless you're going for something turboautistic like no traces

>>712381757
You either haven't played GZ long enough or you're just not astute enough to get the difference.

I don't blame you. Infiltration is a pretty subtle genre, it's easy for people to completely miss what makes it good or bad, or to even ditch it altogether and start stunning everyone with MK2 and call it a day. Or shooting everyone with a suppressed sniper, too. Similarly it's easy to miss how tightly and smartly designed Camp Omega is and how much interesting situations it allows for.

>>712381789
TPP had more options and mechanics to play around with, and the open world makes it so you can approach each mission from a lot of possible angles, both literally and figuratively.

>>712381976
I just played the main mission since I didn't paid 40 dollars for a fucking tech demo.

>>712376685 (OP)
because Konami didn't let Kojima finish the fucking game.

>>712381691
My biggest gripe with TPP is the fact that light sources and camo don't seem to matter. In GZ you could hide in the shadows and tumbleweeds. In TPP it just isn't part of the gameplay.

>>712382001
You're exactly the kind of person I take issue with when discussing MGSV

>more options and mechanics to play around with
But what do they fucking mean? What does it add? What does it remove? Fulton was an addition, but it made the game WORSE! Think for a moment anon, what are the actual good additions/options you enjoyed in TPP?

Being able to start every mission with the loadout you want? Is this good? Fuck no it's not, because now you can start with optimal loadout and incredibly busted MK2 and stun weapons that trivialize the game. THE DEVS CAN'T BALANCE OR DESIGN AROUND YOUR LOADOUTS OR OSP. THERE IS BASICALLY NO OSP IN THAT GAME.

>>712382093
Poor little Hideous just needed 15 more million dollars and a dozen more dinners with unrelated celebrities before the feet scans could be translated into missions please understand

>>712382237
And I just realized that even the barricades in GZ are slightly taller than in TPP. The barricades suck in TPP.

>>712382237
Pretty sure it's the other way around. Ground Zeroes doesn't have light or camo mechanics at all.

The game totally should have just been a Hitman-like, with every stage being an open but contained area.
You can even still have the Afganistan map. Just make it a fraction of the size, and don't dot the map with copy pasted guard towers. it'd be better for it.

>>712382091
It's a proof of concept, or a demo, or a tech demo, or call it whatever you want. It's also an incredibly well designed open level with lots of interacting moving parts and DELIBERATE. GAMEPLAY. CHALLENGES.

In GZ, hard mode, when I find the suppressed SMG, I have a choice to make. It means multiple things for me. I can take out cameras with it. It replaces my MK2 so if I try to stun guards with it it'll raise an alert, so that's a drawback. But it's a good weapon.
In GZ, if I find a rocket launcher, it's a good addition to deal with tanks and shit but it has low ammo. It matters that I go out of my way to fetch that rocket launcher, though.
In GZ, if I use C4 to bomb anti aerial defenses, it matters for my chopper escape AND it will shift base defense towards that location. And that also matters a lot. Not in TPP.

>>712382337
Money wasn't the reason for the fallout, zoomtard. Stop talking about shit you have no idea about.

>>712382286
>Fulton was an addition, but it made the game WORSE!
No it didn't. It added an extra layer to the game by making you examine each soldier before taking them down. It's fun.

>>712382534
Don't lie, faggot. GZ literally has a dedicated switch location that can turn off all the base lights which helps you get around more easily. It absolutely has light mechanics, and similarly you are more incentivized to hide in tumbleweeds and grass instead of crawling around since guards can fucking see in GZ

>>712382286
>Being able to start every mission with the loadout you want? Is this good?
Yes. It was a good mechanic in Rainbow Six and Armored Core, since it allows you to make interesting choices and come up with an unique playstyle.

>>712382650
>player is incentivized to stun every guards he finds (or at least all the strong ones, but really you can't lose anything by stunning everyone)
>unconscious bodies are instantly disposed of

Both huge downgrades. You know how you can make Fulton good? Force the player to evacuate guards using chopper. Make that something they have to go out of their way to do, and make the reward actually meaningful when you get a strong soldier like that. Not Fultoning 15 guys on your way to the end.

>>712382591
>different weapons have different advantages
So deep.

>>712382792
It's fine when you have actual choices to make and the developers designed the game around these choices. There are no real choices to make in TPP regarding loadouts, it just means you're going there with suppressed M4, MK2, possibly a stun sniper, and that's it. You're winning. Easily.

>>712382934
It's about OSP and its consequences on the gameplay. In TPP, if I want a rocket launcher, I'll call MB and wait 10s. If I want more MK2 bullets, same. Hell, they'll resupply me automatically. If I use C4 to lure guards in TPP, it wont really matter much because there's no big open level structure designed like Camp Omega where I can make use of that in a meaningful way.

>>712382719
GZ doesn't have light and shadow mechanics you got bamboozled.

>>712383267
Prove it

>>712382848
>>player is incentivized to stun every guards he finds
You can examine the soldiers before taking them down. So you can preventively decide if it's worth taking them alive, and also choose which method is best for that.

>>712383142
>it just means you're going there with suppressed M4, MK2, possibly a stun sniper, and that's it.
You are an extremely boring person.

>>712376685 (OP)
Tighter world. Good blend of interior and open spaces. Optional encounters that were time sensitive. No MB micromanagement. Controls felt heavier and deliberate. Better music

>>712382848
>You know how you can make Fulton good? by removing it and spending years on extracting people
fucking lmao
glad you're not in charge of this shit
there's no practical fucking difference in gameplay between killing enemies and fultoning them

>>712376685 (OP)
Literally only contrarians have this opinion.

>>712383349
The average guard is decent enough that it's good to stun and retrieve him. The incentive exists. Why bother examining soldiers before retrieving them when you can just stun whatever you see and call it a day?

>>712383456
So what else are you going to grab? Some smokes for the car trick I mentioned above? The stupid decoys for more meme shit? Other variations of "stun weapon but not MK2 so that's completely different I swear!"?

Why do you think that's an actual replacement for actual OSP where you have to make do with what you have instead of infinite ammo and most efficient weapons available at all times?

>>712377104
>$40 for a 30 minute demo
Actually criminal.

>>712383557
Fulton means you don't have to bother about hiding corpses. Well, you kind of didn't have to do that because of open world cancer so now you can just move to the next outpost.

If kidnapping a guard was actually something involving that made you take decisive choices and actions, it would be infinitely better. You would only do it in some circumstances, you'd have to think about when and how you could do that based on your chopper escape route and so on.

>>712381561
MGO3 was cancer.

>>712383735
post your 30 minute clear of GZ

TPP > GZ

>>712383824
hiding corpses has always been pointless
you use them as a giant magnet
in fact making fultoning so relevant is how you're not just bulldozing the whole fucking game since going lethal and killing everything is just easier
riot suits are never a real threat and getting clean kills doesn't matter because they can't get up
i've just replayed the ground zeroes mission and you have to huff farts if you think it's some le masterpiece, you play it like you would anything else, you scout enemies and you shoot them

>>712384159
Nice pic man, too bad 90% of the game will be spent running around lame copy pasted outposts

>>712383681
Guards have very different skills and ratings. Most of them are not worth fultoning them.

>>712384382
early-mid game you're fultoning most guards faggot

>>712381203
Based

>>712384208
>in fact making fultoning so relevant is how you're not just bulldozing the whole fucking game since going lethal and killing everything is just easier
Yes so you just use your OP stun weapons and stun everyone instead, which is just as easy, turning this into a shooter with a different skin instead of sneaking

>i've just replayed the ground zeroes mission and you have to huff farts if you think it's some le masterpiece, you play it like you would anything else, you scout enemies and you shoot them
Maybe if you're stupid. GZ literally has Kaz telling you to check the weapon room so you can grab stuff and there are tons of different possibilities to prepare your infiltration and how you'll escape with the targets. You can run with Paz on a truck, you can try sneaking around with her using the SMG as a secondary weapon since you can't use the rifle while carrying her. You can destroy the anti air defenses and try to make a bold escape in the middle of the base. None of that would matter in TPP because you'd have 500 other better options at your fingertips, one MB call away.

Even if you just play the boring way and don't plan anything around, and follow the "correct" route, this route is better designed than anything in TPP. The guards locations, the hiding spots, the level, it's absolutely great and made for you to barely be able to sneak in instead of stunning everyone on sight.

>>712384353
Most outposts have a few guards and are not worth interacting with.

>>712384732
Too bad they're most of the map

>>712384446
I think you don't need a full base early on.

>>712384208
>you have to huff farts if you think it's some le masterpiece
This. Just fulton, fulton, fulton. Game's easy as shit.

>>712384732
you know your game is shit when the fans resort to the "just ignore the content" excuse

>>712384804
There is no reason to explore the map.

>>712384732
Even the bigger bases, save for a few exceptions, are just outposts on steroids. Have little to them.

>>712384692
>Yes so you just use your OP stun weapons and stun everyone instead, which is just as easy, turning this into a shooter with a different skin instead of sneaking
tomato tomato, neither are that hard
you want a challenge you self impose it
>GZ literally has Kaz telling you to check the weapon room so you can grab stuff and there are tons of different possibilities to prepare your infiltration and how you'll escape with the targets. You can run with Paz on a truck, you can try sneaking around with her using the SMG as a secondary weapon since you can't use the rifle while carrying her. You can destroy the anti air defenses and try to make a bold escape in the middle of the base. None of that would matter in TPP because you'd have 500 other better options at your fingertips, one MB call away.
>you can do retarded shit
or you could just carefully sneak through and headshot everyone
weren't you upset about uprooting stealth and you come up with retarded loud shit no one will want to do?

>>712384912
>>712384858 lol

I didn't go out of my way to explore the map and still got bored with these stupid samey locations

>>712384858
The content is the actual missions. It's not an Ubisoft/CDPR sandslop game with a bunch of random activities and towers.

>>712384827
as opposed to just click heads with the starting suppressed rifle and don't let them spot you?

>>712385024
>tomato tomato, neither are that hard
It's not about being hard. Shooting/Stunning everyone isn't interesting. It's also easy, but it's boring as fuck too.
>you want a challenge you self impose it
This is the only argument I see from TPPfags.
>bro, it's actually fun if you start playing with decoys to meme the guards! We have fun gimmicks, just self impose the challenge!

Guess what, I didn't need to self impose challenge in GZ. I had 1 starting loadout designed by the devs, that was even more limited in hard mode, and if I wanted to get a weapon I had to retrieve it, which involved risks and rewards.

>or you could just carefully sneak through and headshot everyone
It's way harder and less rewarding to do in GZ. If you're not a retard you'll find yourself in much more interesting interactions since the game is a lot more involving with its "1 big mission" structure rather than "just finish this one camp and move on to the other" like TPP.

>>712381530
>TPP is a better game than Revengeance
End your life.

>>712385360
Are we pretending that Revengeance has anything to praise other than its soundtrack and 4chan memes now?

>>712385662
go back

>>712385252
>Guess what, I didn't need to self impose challenge in GZ. I had 1 starting loadout designed by the devs, that was even more limited in hard mode, and if I wanted to get a weapon I had to retrieve it, which involved risks and rewards.
install infinite heaven and turn on osp then?

>It's way harder and less rewarding to do in GZ. If you're not a retard you'll find yourself in much more interesting interactions since the game is a lot more involving with its "1 big mission" structure rather than "just finish this one camp and move on to the other" like TPP.
only turboautists find the idea of playing on the same fucking map back to back with some minor shit reshuffled interesting
there's a reason only half the people who cleared the one mission everyone comes for cleared any of the shovelware ops

>>712385715
You first PlatinumFag

>>712385360
Revengeance isn't that good.

Hitman WoA made MGSV obsolete

KEK

>>712386452
Maybe but if it was coming out today we’d all still eat it up being this starved for some good games

>>712376743
fpwp

>>712387810
Expedition 33 is RIGHT THERE

>>712379824
Don't TPP has an entire arc that get scrapped?
Also something about fighting Metal Gear in jungle

>>712385875
>install infinite heaven and turn on osp then?
It's fucking insane that you don't see the issue with what you just said.

>coolest stuff in the game is only usable in coop
why

>>712388829
the issue being you complaining the game is too easy?

>>712379272
There's not a single location in all of GZ that comes as close to how tightly designed Camp Omega is.

>>712389379
The issue is that the game isn't designed for a challenge with limitations and risk/rewards in mind. You have to get some mod made by fans later down the line and activate it in random areas and hope it makes for a more interesting experience without knowing if it even does, because THE GAME WASN'T DESIGNED WITH THIS MOD IN MIND