you mean baits
and you just fell for it

>>712619613
I hate a mate bring this up to me and apparently it's a genuine belief in that community in some distinct retards

he is right and people don't like this statement only because of public opinion. being more complex is not necessarily better either

He's not wrong though.

>>712619542 (OP)
I wouldn't know.

>>712619823
I don't think people that claim so have any idea how chess plays besides how the pieces move

>>712620026
what
chess is not that complex though
you have computers who can solve chess better than humans can
and human moves are calculated against stockfish accuracy of all things lmao

>>712619542 (OP)
I would say that VGC is more complicated than chess. However, my reasoning is that chess has been effectively solved via programs and Pokemon has not.
HOWEVER: Pokemon also has a big luck component that kind of renders it less of a truly competitive game. You can make the right decision and still miss a 95% accurate move or the enemy can crit with a 6% chance. It is like if you went to go capture a knight but then there was a 5% chance your piece just doesn't move and you lose your turn. Kinda bullshit.

Pokemon is indeed more complex than chess
I suck at both btw

>>712619542 (OP)
it's actually kind of funny. a lot of games actually become simpler the more complex mechanics are thrown on top of it. players get hit with decision paralysis/information overload and just start using the fastest, simplest ways of breaking the game. having a lower complexity on the face can lead to much more complex game decisions within gameplay, but decisions that are actually able to be understood and analyzed.
i've seen this happen in real time with magic the gathering over the course of the last decade. much more complex cards that do several things all at once, but the game is actually simpler now than it was when i started playing because the available lines are so few.

>>712620072
>>you have computers who can solve chess better than humans can
And you can easily program AI that is really good at Pokémon too. By that logic, Go is the most complex game there is because computers are bad at it.

>Chess Pro tries hardcore Run & Bun
actually would be kino

>>712620219
>And you can easily program AI that is really good at Pokémon too
Proof? Even things like Gemini really struggled with the game.

most retards who jerk off chess barely know the rules of it

>>712620219
no? because pokemon has rng involved
you could program a bot to play showdown using only the most optimal moves
but it would not reach 3800ELO like chess engines do

>>712620219
I mean, then do it? It would be really interesting to see an AI that can construct a VGC team and do well on the ladder or in a tournament. I think the luck factor completely fucks it over though.

>>712620026
bobby even said regular chess is opening theory flowchart slop

>>712620026
Pokemon is the more complex of the two. But just because something is simpler doesn't mean its easier.

>>712620273
I was thinking more about the battle system. That's what I'm thinking of when people talk about the depth in Pokémon.

Chess has hundreds of years of metagame knowledge built up but it’s not more complex

>>712620219
>By that logic, Go is the most complex game there is because computers are bad at it.
You know there hasn't been a single AI that has beaten a pokemon game without assistance, right?

>>712620151
I think you bring up a good point, but I gotta ask, does that make it harder or comparable? I think learning it and getting good at it is far easier than chess, even though it might be more complex on paper.

>>712619542 (OP)
He is right. Even Magnus would play sub-optimal just to get a "new" game. GMs already memorized thousands of games with optimal moves.

>>712620219
You are conflating complexity with challenge and difficulty.

>>712620406
>>712620293
>>712620290
>>712620273
Isn't that what those Claude threads are? An AI beating Pokemon

>>712619542 (OP)
Chess isn’t complex though
It’s extremely simple, that was the purpose of it, it just has an extremely high ceiling to master

>>712619542 (OP)
>game with critical hits and random chance shit when it comes to paralysis and shit
>complex
Kill all Pokefags

>>712619542 (OP)
chess is a solved game thoughbeit

>>712620273
>>712620519
chat bots are not suited for it. they do not interace with the game optimally.
if you were to write a combat AI bot it would not be a chatbot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcYLT37ImBY
technically it would be easier to handle just combat with it because thats just many risk/reward simulations.

>>712620610
low IQ: rng is fun!
midwit: rng is just luck and completely devalues all skill and strategy from a game
high IQ: rng is fun

>>712620519
Oh you sweet summer child.

>>712620290
pokemon even with its rng aspects still has very consistent top players.

>>712619542 (OP)
Pokemon has high horizontal complexity and low vertical complexity in the sense it has many different systems but these systems are all quite shallow in how they interact with each other and on their own, so they're easily optimizable.
Chess has low horizontal complexity and high vertical complexity in the sense it has only a few mechanics but they have much more depth to them and they influence each other more so it's harder to identify winning optimal strats.

>>712619542 (OP)
Why are you 4cucks so obsessed with us superior redditGODs? Do our cocks taste THAT good?

>>712620219
You're a decade out of date there, fren. AI have long since surpassed humans at Go

>>712619542 (OP)
But he's right. Have you seen how fucking autistic and specific double battles are and how much fucking knowledge of the game you have to have? There are so many variations of what can happen AND you're not given a lot of time for each move. You have to think ahead with a wide variety of pokemon on the opponent's side and you have to be aware of what bullshit they're up to because the game has so many BULLSHIT combinations to make use of.

You never know when some fucking FREAK with his fuck-ass strategy is about to come in with his clown team and start sweeping because you weren't prepared for their special recipe of black magic horse shit they brought to the table today.

>>712620219
>Go is the most complex game there is because computers are bad at it.
do you live under a rock?

>>712619542 (OP)
permutationally, pokemon can get pretty complex, even compared to chess. You can do the combinatorics and actually quantify it, this isn't necessarily a subjective thing

>>712619542 (OP)

>>712620864
More bullshit means more ways to get out of mistakes. The less options you have, the more fatal your mistakes become.

>>712619542 (OP)
>be a redditor who uses reddit
>seethe at a reddit post
>instead of responding directly take a screenshot like a scared little faggot
>run to 4chan because they're le edgy and based and will definitely agree with you!
go back and stay there.

>>712620219
The claude threads ays otherwise

>>712621071
See this is what I actually intended to see here lol

>>712620519
I had to be restarted multiple times because the AI got caught in a loop

>>712619542 (OP)
>pokemon is complex
Chess would be ifinitely more complex with RNG.
>I take your queen
>no roll the 1024 sides die
>I rolled 1024
>YOU mISS AHAHAHAHA FAGGOT
heh

WOW, there are a LOT of phone posters....

>>712620519
>claude
If they train it on the pokemon games yes. Using the generic model and having it try to beat pokemon no.

>>712619542 (OP)
Doesn't Pokemon have much more options and possibilities? I'm sure if Pokemon had centuries of metagame and theory crafting with fixed rules and mechanics you would see some high level play develop

>>712620273
>the game.
the game in the context of chess and complexity is battling not the campaign you dumb motherfucker.

>>712621168
Battlefield subreddit is a gift that keeps on giving

>>712620026
chess is semi-solvable
pokemon is evolving and has exponentially more moves and combinations (IVs, EVs, items, damage rolls, status rolls)
they said more complex, not strictly better (even though for many it definitely is)

>>712619542 (OP)
>nobody got it
He was too good for this accursed time.

>>712621367
I think I made the mistake of not differentiating complexity and difficulty.

>>712620689
>rng is just luck and completely devalues all skill and strategy from a game
I don't share this opinion, niggre. I just don't think a game is "complex" when you can hail mary irl luck max and eek out a win in a game. That's why faggot madeup rules have to ban moves like minimize and smokescreen

>>712620026
>>712620219
>>712620338
>>712620519
>>712621261
>>712619542 (OP)

These cucks never played competitive Pokemon lmao

>>712621742
Don't have to be a janitor to know that building rockets is harder than cleaning floors

>>712621261
>each player brings their own pieces to the game
>they keep adding new pieces every couple of seasons and changing how the old ones work
>each piece has 4 variations to pick from
>some pieces are allowed to move twice under certain conditions

>>712621935
You thought he was referring to the single player campaigns in mainline Pokemon games. You literally don't know what's being discussed here.

>>712620219
You don't even need AI for a computer to be good at chess

>>712619542 (OP)
>you can only find them on reddit
by posting them here they can then be found on 4chan though

Chess is more complex than Pokemon because we have Chess960.

>>712620219
>>712620293
It appears like the best any bot has ever done is getting to 33rd on the Random Battle ladder (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.13338).
I would assume that you could get to the top of that ladder with a larger research effort.
Non-random formats seem like they would be harder.

>>712619542 (OP)
In the sense that Pokemon has a greater number of mechanics and inputs this is true. That's why AI can easily play chess but struggles with playing Pokemon.

>>712620219
Computers have been beating humans at go for years.
Like chess it is considered a "solved" game for AI.

Complexity isn't some ineffable subjective concept like fun, it's a descriptor of the scope of possible game states.

>>712621742
>competitive Pokemon
No but I've won some competitive hop scotch tournaments so I'm a pretty big deal on the playground.

Chess is only game. Why you heff to be mad?

>>712620293
I watched this a while ago, idk if there has been any meaningful progress since then https://youtu.be/rhvj7CmTRkg?si=vq7Pe9i1NIZWcg4p

>>712619542 (OP)
Pokemon has RNG, chess doesnt. Chess always has a correct move, if you could compute EVERY possible move in chess, you will win.
Meanwhile rng might fuck you over in pokemon.
>attack might miss
>attack damage has a 5%~ variance so attacking twice with the same attack and no changes will lead to 2 diferent damage values

chess, by definition, is more complex.

>>712619542 (OP)
Fischer's Chess.
>>712623236
Actual retard alert.

>>712625034
That was my reasoning for calling chess more complex, but people seem to think that's exactly what makes pokemon more complex. I just don't think that randomness contributes to complexity, in fact I think it dumbs down the game instead.

>>712625034
>by definition
>definition has literally nothing to do with the definition of complexity

>>712624036
>the same anon who thought pokemon meant the single player games
lol

>>712624536
Does this video cover AI creating teams?

>pokemon is le eas-

>>712625707
>I just don't think that randomness contributes to complexity
It in fact does, it's quite literally another mechanic to take into account therefore making the game more complex. Chess is quite literally just an algorithm of possible moves with the only factor being current piece placement.

fighting games are more complex than chess

>>712620219
Chessissies, why do AIGODs rape our best players with ease but 1000 elo PokeCHADs cannot be beaten by a machine?

It true. Pokemon has To RNG and imperfect information. In the same vain MtG or Yu-Gi-Oh are also more complex than chess.

How relevant is Reddit nowadays? How many zoomers use it compared to millennials?

>retards confounding complexity with level of play
Chess being easier is what takes the competition to insane levels that Pokemon will never reach due to being too complex. Pokemon has too many options to find the objectively correct play most of the time, because counterplay is always available. On the other hand chess has limited options, which allow for almost "perfect plays" that human can find.

>>712627079
It’s a fake and gay glowie site I don’t think it’s really alive

>>712619542 (OP)
This one can only be found on reddit

>>712627337
>capping your own post

>>712623236
>That's why AI can easily play chess but struggles with playing Pokemon.
???
pokemon has had perfectly functional AI for 3 decades

>>712621687
If there's no randomness, games would come down to memorization. Randomness creates novel situations, novel situations create complexity

>>712620273
>Even things like Gemini really struggled with the game.
Gemini is a generative model, you fucking retard

>>712627706
Craps is more complex than chess then

>>712626372
If you look at it purely from a mathematical perspective, yes, but practically the randomness only serves to flatten out skill expression to some degree and breaks logical structure.

Besides that, if you account for meta play and assume a subset of playable pokemon and moves instead, the amount of elements to factor in decreases significantly.

>>712628143
>breaks logical structure.
So making it more complex?
>Besides that, if you account for meta play and assume a subset of playable pokemon and moves instead, the amount of elements to factor in decreases significantly.
While still being magnitudes more complex than Chess, which was the whole point of discussion.

>>712621367
Yes, mathematically speaking pokemon is infinitely more complex than chess, which doesn't mean it's harder to learn or that it takes more skill to master, because we're human beings. Modern computers aren't powerful enough to calculate every single possible future board state, but they can still look far enough ahead to consistently defeat grandmaster players. You can't do that in pokemon, or in yu-gi-oh, or in civilization, or in basically any game that's more than pieces in a small grid, because the number of possible interactions and game states is several orders of magnitude greater.

>>712619542 (OP)
Hes right
Chess is a very simple game
Obviously a board game is going to be less complex than a computer game

I don't think he's wrong. The rules of chess are very simple and everything regarding competitive pokemon is complicated as fuck with variables and edge-cases out the ass. There's just more moving parts there. I think people are just getting butthurt because they're conflating complexity (amount of rules and shit) with strategic depth (amount of freedom you have to work with those rules and shit).

I think it's a shit comparison anyway. I've only fucked around a bit on showdown but I'm not exactly a ranked master at chess either, and pokemon for me feels closer to poker than chess. A lot more about bluffing, playing the odds, and knowing when to hide/show your hand. It's a fun time, but doesn't really compare directly I don't think.

Chess can be played by an AI that runs on your phone. Pokemon doesnt even have competitive AI

this thread I just saw

>>712625034
Yeah and Tic-tac-toe is more complex than Axis and Allies because you don't have to roll dice in Tic-tac-toe.

>>712619542 (OP)
Just dropping in to say Pokemon is an obscenely dogshit competitive game.
Luck is regularly the sole decider at the top of the ladder.
t. randbats 2.3k elo

>>712624152
no, that's accurate

>>712619542 (OP)
SO WHY AM I FINDING THEM ON 4CHAN

>>712629281
Kek people really think this too

>>712629281
>randbats player thinks Pokemon is all luck
makes sense

Pokemon is one of the shittiest video games in existence, you were just bombarded with consumerist brand propaganda as a kid and built your entire life and identity around a product.