>"it's edgy"
So was everything else in 2005.
>"it's inappropriate for a children's IP to become edgy"
Half of them were doing it at the time to survive with an aging audience.
>"why would Shadow need a gun?"
It's a spin-off and Sonic Team wanted to experiment with the gameplay.
>"you run past objectives"
You control Shadow.
>"Shadow's movement is slippery"
He has multiple movement speeds for a reason.
>"the Homing Attack is broken"
Hold the left stick in the direction you want Shadow to go and it works perfectly.
>"there was a hazard in the middle of the room and I ran into it"
The levels are designed to encourage you to explore in search of objectives, as opposed to holding the stick forward the whole game.
>"the last ending negates your choices"
Fair, but you could also just enjoy the story you chose for what it is.
>"companion characters are annoying"
You can complete their missions even when you select the neutral path, preventing them from following you.
>"it reuses assets from Sonic Heroes"
Your favorite games probably reuse assets too, just in a way that meshes better with the new stuff.
>"there's a glitch preventing a soldier from spawning in that one level, making 100% completion impossible"
Only happens on the Dolphin emulator and not on real hardware.
>"everyone but you agrees it's bad"
Doesn't refute my points.
>"you bought the game at launch and have nostalgia for it"
Correct, but also doesn't refute my points.

The "kill every single enemy" mission ruin the game.

It's chuuni.

>>712780018 (OP)
The game still sucks tho

The levels simply aren't interesting, that's all it fundamentally boils down to for me. Any other issue is secondary to this.
Like just compare any random SA1 or 2 level to the ones in here, it's night and day. The levels here are so flat and linear. When you need to find an objective it's not fun because the levels aren't fun to explore and when you just go to the goal it's not fun because the levels aren't fun to simply move through either.
If this game had better levels I could agree with you on everything you've said here but none of it matters because the levels aren't good.

>>712780018 (OP)
>He has multiple movement speeds for a reason.
Not an argument
You have GOT to go FAST, and being slippery at high speeds is a crime against physics

>>712781492
And that's fair. I wish more people were honest like you instead of artificially making it out to have more problems than it really does.

>>712781492
Spot on, I like everything else about it but it doesn't really matter because of that.

>>712780018 (OP)
jak 2 is an infinitely superior edgy mascot platformer with guns game from the most basic things like the actual handling of the jumping and shooting to more abstract things like mission design, plot, and not being a glitchy piece of shit, didn't read

why is it that for the past 20 years everyone agreed heroes, shadow, and 06 were the shitty pre-boost games and now so many people say they're hidden gems?

>>712780018 (OP)
It's just an average game

>>712781923
The only glitch in Shadow is a single-frame exploit with Chaos Control you have to intentionally trigger. If you have other examples then by all means list them.

>>712781953
I can only speak for myself when I say I've always defended this one game. The shift could be because of greater access to emulators, or it could very well be nostalgia.

Reminder that 06 is a completely different group of people than the one behind the Adventure games, Heroes and Shadow

>>712782286
Actually surprising because it's the closest to adventure 3 in design of any other sonic game

>>712781492
>Levels aren't fun
>Shadow isn't fun to control
Any other point in defense of this game is negated by these two fundamental truths

>>712781953
>Heroes
First big multiplatform Sonic game, so a lot of children grew up on it. Now a lot of those children have grown up and have immense nostalgia for it
>Shadow
Same as the above plus people liking it because it's "2000s edge and soulful and less gay than normal Sonic games"
>06
Contrarianism with a bit of Project 06 going in for some history revisionism

>>712781645
It has plenty of problems besides that. Most of the ones you listed are nitpicks that don't really affect the game. Let's go over some of the main ones you neglected to mention. Story is a mixed bag for Sonic games but this game clearly wanted that to be a big part of it given all the routes and pointless ending combinations. To that end, the writing is unfocused and not very good. None of the endings are very conclusive and many of them are barely different. If you want anything resembling an actual finale you have to get 10 endings and play through a bunch of awful levels. Despite the CYOA nature of the game, the "true ending" seemingly disregards most of the events of the game and the actual story leading up to that is left to your imagination. Shadow accelerates very quickly but for some reason the game does everything in its power to kneecap your speed whether it's through the jump halting most of your momentum, automation like ziplines, sluggish vehicles, and so on. What is even the point of the spin dash when Shadow takes off so quickly? It brings you to a full stop and you can't even preserve any of its speed after the initial boost. The only use it has is for clearly unintentional abuse of slope jumps. More on the mechanics side, the chaos powers are terribly designed. The game is mostly objective based yet one of the powers skips whole chunks of level as well as objectives that you then have to pointlessly backtrack for. The score is based around hero points and dark points depending on which ones you kill and yet one of the powers is wide blast that will often kill both types of enemy. Which is outclassed by the infinite ammo the hero/dark mode gives you anyway. On top of that, you get invincibility for the duration, so why would you ever use these powers? The guns themselves also aren't very fun to use. Most of them behave in the exact same way with the only real differences being how fast they shoot and if they auto fire.

>>712782974
not gonna read all that

>side with Eggman in Cryptic Castle
>boss has me fighting Eggman at Amy's side as if I chose the Hero mission
>side with Doom in Lethal Highway
>cutscene shows him pissed at Shadow as if I didn't just do what he asked and he sends a boss after me alongside Sonic as if I chose the Hero mission
>do the Dark mission in Air Fleet, visibly blowing up the president's plane into a fiery shitwreck
>the cutscene shows him alive and the plane perfectly fine, the exact same outcome as if I did Neutral or Hero instead
Possibly the worst execution of a "you make choices and they '''matter'''" system possible.

And that's not even getting to how they "connect" story routes together.
>do the Hero mission in Air Fleet, Shadow helps Tails kill a bunch of aliens at an airport, putting you into the Neutral path
>after this, for no fucking reason whatsoever, Shadow suddenly "realizes" he's a robot clone and randomly runs off to go kill Eggman, leaving the entire build-up of the humans vs aliens war, Black Doom trying to convince Shadow to join him, and the GUN commander wanting him dead up until that point to vanish without resolution.

>>712782974
I won't disagree with you on most of that. But Chaos Control exists for the neutral route and time bonuses for ranking, which it's very efficient for. If you're playing an objective mission, you get invincibility and infinite ammo. It has these two functions so it's always useful.

>>712780018 (OP)
It's a horrid game that turned Shadow into a laughing stock for years

>>712780018 (OP)
>Half of them were doing it at the time to survive with an aging audience.

Pro-tip: You never do this. You keep aiming for the same target audience even as your original audience ages. Older people can still like stuff for kids, and changing it too much will just alienate them

Look at One Piece. It's been going on since 1997, but Oda still writes it under the assumption that the person reading it is a young boy

>>712783190
it was a very ambitious and innovative idea but they definitely did not QA the story combinations for more than a few hours. A game like this probably would've needed way less story focus

>>712783719
True, it was a phase that passed for a reason. I just wanted to explain why it happened. At the time, it was assumed to be a "do or die" scenario.

>>712783324
>But Chaos Control exists for the neutral route and time bonuses for ranking, which it's very efficient for.
That's obvious enough but it's boring as fuck to just press a button and skip most of the level. Why even design a level at all at that point? Granted, they barely did, so it's arguable as to whether actually playing the level would be more fun. Anyway, the invincibility and ammo isn't a function of Chaos Control, that's just the hero mode or dark mode activating. I'm not arguing about that part being useful. I'm contesting what the point of the main ability is for 2/3 of the game. It's a fundamentally flawed ability. They could have at least given Shadow one or two more abilities per alignment, or hell, even a neutral chaos ability like Chaos Spear. Gunning down enemies is fun for a bit but it wears off quickly. The shooting mechanics aren't nearly deep enough for that to be engaging the whole time. It's a game with a combat focus like Heroes but all you can really do is shoot. The homing attack is neutered so there's rarely much reason to use it to fight enemies outside of the obligatory homing attack chains. It seems like it's supposed to be a balancing measure, ammo is limited so guns should be strong and unarmed attacks should be weak. However, guns are littered all over stages through boxes and enemy drops. Add the hero/dark mode and ammo is trivial. I almost forgot about the melee weapons because of how terrible they are. I don't think I need to say more about them than that.

>>712784219
I unfortunately have to give the lame "agree to disagree" reply. I wish I could give more since you've been leaving lengthy responses with a lot of consideration behind them, but our approaches to judging games are fundamentally different.

Combat has never been good in a Sonic game, enemies with health bars were a mistake

>>712784868
Ultimately I should make clear that I don't think the game is iredeemable garbage. It's thoroughly mediocre. There are things that I enjoyed when I played it to completion, getting all the keys and A ranks, and beating hard mode, I'll give it that. But for every one thing I liked there were two that brought down the experience. It disappoints me more than anything. I can imagine a version of the game that's good, but it does kind of require a huge overhaul of most of the game, at which point it would hardly be the same game. I don't think it's worth comparing to the likes of 06 or other barely functional games like Boom, nor do I really see why someone would want to defend the game. It's a proof of concept at best. Par for the course with Sonic games but it feels rushed and unfinished. You can see this most with the visuals and the reused stage assets. Nearly every Heroes level is a visual spectacle while most Shadow levels are dull and lifeless. Whole sections of level geometry get reused from one to another but with different textures.

>>712780018 (OP)
>>"everyone but you agrees it's bad"
>Doesn't refute my points.
And these statements don't refute that the game is bad

>>712785457
>nor do I really see why someone would want to defend the game
I always appreciate alternative viewpoints when there's a dominant view in the discourse. As you said, the game isn't irredeemable. And it's for that reason I find it compelling to put forward my own competing perspective. I don't expect to salvage the game's reputation or anything. At most, I'd like to make people think, "huh, interesting".

>>712780018 (OP)
this game solved shadow yet people act like shadow generations was a deep character exploration that wasn't done before. fuck fakers, this game was always good

>>712780018 (OP)
I liked, probably my second favorite sonic game behind only adventure 2. Also has some really cool levels.

>Lost Impact, Hero mission
>Mad Matrix, Dark mission
>Central City, Hero mission
>The Doom, anything

Honestly my real issue with shadow in particular is that it looks like ass. SA2 looked amazing, Heroes looked amazing, Shadow literally just has flying untextured pieces of soap like it's fucking runescape mixed with SA2 downgraded assets and with Heroes characters that for no reason have INSANE amounts of squash and stretch, Also shadow is for some reason red isntead of black and bloom is awful. Idk how did this game managed to be so ugly, but it is.

>>712787902
>Also shadow is for some reason red isntead of black
Excuse me? This is his in-game model. There might be a very slight tint to how light hits him, but he most certainly isn't red.

>>712788350
he's red in every single level besides the level in jungle. Definitely red in almost every ending

>>712788942
Could this be a regional change I'm unaware of? I'm in North America.

>>712789083
nah you probably just aren't bothered by that tint cause you aren't autistic artist. I've defo played NA version too

>>712786414
If that's your goal I feel like your effort would be better served highlighting things the game does well. Dispelling nitpicks isn't really going to change anyone's mind. I can see why that's not the simplest thing to do on a message board, so I get it. It's easier to just refute the most surface level complaints.

Shadow is based

>>712790497
For years now I've been toying with the idea of a full-blown video essay. It would be the most complex thing I'd ever assembled, but each individual element (writing, game capture, video editing) I have past experience with. This thread is a super condensed version of that idea. If the video ever materializes I'll try to also incorporate the approach you recommended. You're right that it shouldn't just be a refutation of common talking points.

>>712783190
>And that's not even getting to how they "connect" story routes together.
This.
Sometimes it works out and the levels connect together fine regardless of what path you choose, like the final 2 Hero and Neutral-Hero cutscenes taking place on the Arc so you can cleanly go between any of them. But most of the time it doesn't work out like this and it feels like Shadow is just randomly teleporting around everywhere.

>>712780018 (OP)
I got the PS2 version and it has to be reset every third load screen.

>>712780018 (OP)
AIGHT YOU FORGOT ONE BIG PART, OP.
Game's a bit shit, in'it?

>>712783741
>interesting concepts but with poor execution due to rushed deadlines and Sonic Team incompetence
Shame this is 95% of the series.

>>712780018 (OP)
>Wants to be serious and edgy
>Has to walk back anything too extreme to keep the E10 rating
The president and entire surrounding city get nuked and in the very next cutscene they tell us the president somehow escaped and there was 0 causalities.

>>712780018 (OP)
Maybe I don't want to play Westopolis 10 fucking times to gwt the true ending
God a refutation to that, revisionist contrarian faggot?

>>712782596
Heroes and Shadow I get but I see more people bitching about the possibility of people liking 06 than actual praise claiming it's good or whatever. Even the people who like 06 say it's shit.

Until I actually see people saying "Sonic 06 is a good game" who aren't just fucking with other fans, I'm calling bullshit