What the fuck was his problem? Does he get off to calling (You) gross?

its pretty rude to just kill someone

>>712877721 (OP)
you've gotta go through a lot of effoert to get his attention after all, you're kinda wierd, don't you think?

>entire game is full of things trying to kill you
>you defend yourself and kill them
>WOWWWWWWW YOU'RE FUCKING EVIL

What absurd logic

>>712878717
In all seriousness though. I understand what Toby was going for and I think it works thematically for the game, but I do also recognize the naive outlook on conflict that comes with it. Violence is presented in such an optimistic way where it's simply a game with no strong emotions on either side. None of the monsters express any fear or anger, they're casually shooting you like it's a normal greeting. And the solution to violence is to simply opt-out of it. It sure would be nice if the world worked like that.

>>712878717
you get the normal ending if you play normally
you get the evil ending after you hunt down every moving thing in every area
the logic is fine

>>712878546
have you ever considered just not being a videogame character if you don't want to be killed

>>712878717

>>712879423
TF2 friendlies BTFO

>full of things trying to kill you
99% of them aren't trying to harm you in any way. Them being harmful to be around does not excuse you harming them.

>>712879254
You just don't understand esoteric libtardism chud

>>712879532
>99% of them aren't trying to harm you in any way
To be fair, it's more - Royal Guards, Muffet, Mettaton, Mettaton's mercenaries in the Core, Asgore himself.
>Them being harmful to be around does not excuse you harming them
No, but you being an enemy combatant trespassing on their territory excuses THEM harming you.

>>712879532
>>712879952
Good intentions can only go so far when the end result of aforementioned good intentions is your death.

>>712879809
I don't think Toby was trying to make any deep statements about violence. Like I said, it makes sense in the context of the game. It's not about the violence, it's about the choices the player makes. Toby WANTS you to do a genocide run. Telling you not to is how he eggs you on to do it. It's all in service of creating an atmosphere where the player feels like a genuine evil villain, which is something games rarely explore even when they have an "evil" route. My point is that if you take it out of the context of the game and apply it to real world logic it doesn't make as much sense. It's less of a point really and more of an observation. It's in the same category as pointing out that Link smashing peoples' pottery and taking the money stashed inside isn't a very heroic thing to do. It's video game concept that obviously doesn't make sense outside the game. There's nothing to discuss really, it's just funny to think about.

>>712880714
I'll go even further and say that the true intent of the Genocide Route isn't about the nature of violence in video games and how you're a bad person if you enjoy it, but more so the relationship between a player and their love for a certain video game. If you're just a casual game enjoyer or were satisfied with the game on a regular playthrough, you'll probably stop at Pacifist. If you're someone who loves Undertale and wants to squeeze every drop of content out of it though, there'll almost certainly do Genocide. The real thing being drawn to attention is not how much you enjoy violence, but how much you enjoy the game. You just spent the entire game befriending and saving these characters from a fate of eternal imprisonment, yet now you're murdering them all just to get more of the game.
Of course, there are some people who are uncomfortable doing this and just watch it on Youtube (Flowey even comments on this type of player near the Sans boss fight) but some people legitimately don't care and continue destroying the characters they love, all to squeeze some additional content out of the game. It's just commentary on how weird 100% completion in a video game is, especially those with morality choices and alternate pathways where bad things happens to the characters.
You're also rewarded with the two hardest bosses in the game, which to me signifies that it was made with the intention of it being the last route you take care in the game for people either itching a challenge or the game going "alright, you should know the ins and outs of the gameplay by now, it's time to test your abilities".

Disingenuous piece of shit always forgets to mention that Sans does not judges you on your first playthrough, he asks YOU to judge your own actions. Only if you've shown the capability to re-do things magically and you still insist on killing people, only then he will judge you, and even then you need to really go out of your way on killing for him to actually start shaming you.

>>712881272
Forgot to mention that Chara says "It's time to take the experience you learned from this world and move onto the next" or something similar in the Genocide ending. Basically the equivalent of switching to another game after finishing everything you can in your current game and another huge piece of evidence for genocide being the intended last route of the game.

>>712881308
>If they didn't want me to play it, they wouldn't have coded it.
Why did you create a strawman of the actual intent Toby had when creating the genocide route?
See
>>712881272
>>712881387

>>712879952
>being an enemy combatant trespassing on their territory excuses THEM harming you
Me when a toddler chases his ball over my fence onto my claymore.

>>712878717
Undertale sure filtered a bunch of brainlets

>>712881573
His intent was to create a really cool real life creepypasta game. It's drama, it's entertainment. If you think Toby was insulting you by creating a scenario where you can play the villain and be treated like one, then you're just stupid.

>>712881603
That toddler is Muslim and wears a suicide vest. How about now?

>>712879952
>No, but you being an enemy combatant trespassing on their territory excuses THEM harming you.
So what do you want Frisk to do then? Stay in the Ruins for the rest of his life? Or give up his soul in Snowdin when they inevitably realize he's human and then they shatter the barrier to genocide humans?
>Inb4 they deserve it

>>712881603
And that toddler is more than capable of killing you dead with a stick he just happened to have

>>712881573
Jeez, calm down, it's a joke on the actual characters.

>>712881826
I already said it was cool man, you don't have to convince me any more that my defensive-only claymore rows are justified.

>>712881825
Did you actually read my post you fucking retard. Even the LITERAL FIRST STATEMENT is about how the genocide route isn't actually about violence in video games

The problem with people overinflating Undertale's morality is that most monsters by design are pure. Completely unable to process purely personal and/or tenacious decisions beyond comedic ticks.
Hence why Toby just downright kills that rule in Deltarune, where nothing about Susie would work if she was simply turned by compassion like UT.

Why is everyone in this thread incapable of reading? It's kind of depressing and demoralizing

>>712881834
>So what do you want Frisk to do then?
The whole point is for Frisk to leave Underground. It's up to you how to achieve that. Frisk will leave no matter what, but if you cared about people you met, you can go out of your way to help them out too. If you didn't care about, then their fate shouldn't concern you either.

>>712881834
He should run through, kill or spare monsters as he sees fit, and get the normal ending. Fighting his way out is reasonable and you don't even get called out unless you do another playthrough. To get the genocide ending you REALLY have to go out of your way to kill the fuck out of everything.

>>712878717
>godlike time travel powers
>too unambitious to kill everyone
>too unprincipled to spare everyone
>use powers for... self defense, but only sometimes

>>712882094
>>712882130
As long as you agree that Frisk killing Undyne and any other members of the Royal Guard is morally fine, then I don't really care.

>>712878717
>You break into someone's house
>They try to defend their property
>You kill them
Brownoid Behavior

>>712882148
Yeah cause the game is boring. "erm you're morally wrong if you don't autistically 100% this game because of the conceit it holds that says you have to" Sorry little digital nigga if it takes too long I'm hitting the murder button.

>>712882316
Counterpoint - Undyne's hot.

>>712882148
good way to put it. Thread filled with a nice ratio of retards and good posts

>>712882408
Isn't it more like
>You break into someone's house
>They try to kill you and take your soul, in which they then wage a war on humanity
>You kill them as even though you're not morally sound in this situation, you're still morally better than someone who wishes to genocide an entire species
Neutral route is the most morally sound route of the game, I'd say.

>>712878717
keeping in mind the fact that the protagonist canonically has the magical power to time travel at will and is completely immortal recontextualizes your choices. The protagonist is never in danger at any point in the entire game so mentioning "self defense" is complete nonsense. Chara Undertale should be feeling equally as much fear and risk as (you) do in real life sitting on your computer chair

>>712882316
Killing pretty much every monster in the game is morally justifiable, even Toriel. They fucked around and found out. Going around depleting the area of monsters entirely until everyone is dead, not so much.

>>712882626
Fair enough. I was singling out Undyne/The Royal Guard in particular though since, you know.
Planning to genocide an entire species isn't particularly heroic or self defense I'd imagine.

>>712882439
Countercounterpoint - she's fucking Alphys

>>712882734
Countercountercounterpoint - Alphys was intended as universal self-insert characters, so it is metaphorically YOU who is fucking Undyne.

>>712882802
Fun fact: There would not be a single human being on this planet who would've liked Alphys if Toby stuck to his original plan of making her male.

>>712882626
What about the monsters that aren't even actively trying to harm you and are just ambiently dangerous to be near because of their biology? Or the ones that don't understand that what they're doing is dangerous for humans? There are several monsters in that category.
Punishing someone with death for being ignorant seems excessive. It might be fair to punish them if they put Frisk in danger, but due to the fact that Frisk is immortal and can time travel there is never a case in all of Undertale where a monster puts Frisk in danger.

>>712882802
>make a self-insert proxy
>give them a really obnoxious personality and everyone hates them
This happens too often to be a coincidence.

>>712882802
Countercountercountercounterpoint - I will fucking end you if you ever compare me to Alphys again.

>>712882802
If you can self-insert into fucking ALPHYS I feel real sorry you. She's the biggest, whiniest loser on the planet.

>>712879468
lol

>>712882316
Is it though? They only attack you because they have been brainwashed by centuries of propaganda telling them that humans are completly evil and if one of them falls in they will wipe out their race if not dealt with. The fact that you can spare them and change their views makes it morally wrong to kill them.
Just look at Undyne, just giving her a cup of water is enough to make her doubt herself about killing you.

>>712878717
Toby just copy OFF without understanding anything

>despite everything (2.3 hours of walking right), it's still you
unearned
dare I say dogshit

>>712882880
>It might be fair
Fair-schmair, if joe the living nuclear reactor meltdown walks up to me expecting a handshake I'd still put a few bullets in him from as far away as possible.

>>712882904
I know

>>712882970
You mean 2.3 hours of fighting to stay alive, and actually straight up getting killed and coming back to live through time travel fuckery. That would change a lot of people.

>>712882979
That's because you're a mortal human.
If you were a time traveling immortal that could definitely just get past him without harm very easily then slaughtering him would be psychotic and cruel

Monster genocide never happened, but damn do they deserve one.

>>712883079
>actually you have to let joe melt your face off a few times because you can experience it over and over and eventually come to a peaceful solution
Not my problem.

I think that genociding them is wrong but my current save file is the post genocide black screen because i wanted to see all endings.

>>712883097

The time travelling save thing is horrible explain.
What happends to those humas Who are serial Killers?
They can became gods if they kill enough of their kind?

>>712883197
Based

>>712882415
thats not what you were complaining about last post

>>712883209
Frisk can only overpower Flowey's control of SAVE in the Underground because Frisk and Chara's souls together have more Determination

The other kids were one and done chumps who just happened to survive long enough to reach the final boss

>>712883547
They did not even reach the final boss, i think that they all died where you find their items.

>>712878717
The game teaches you how to win without fighting.

>>712883537
Because I wasn't him.
Also I wouldn't care either way you can't use ethics to twist my arm into playing a videogame more boringly.
Making the worlds slowest escort mission to cure a blind girl but if you don't do it you're evil! so you better play the boring shitty mission now every time you play through the game!

>>712883596

>>712883601
That sounds like If you kill your enemies they win logic.

>>712883686
Damn, those kids where no joke then. It is a long way from the ruins to the throne, they had to be very good at getting past the monsters to get there.

>>712883671
sure, the gameplay is boring

>>712878717
it's called the genocide route for a reason anon - it has very specific requirements on how to obtain. at least learn about what you are commenting on?

>>712878717
Its always bugged me how the monsters are hell bent on exterminating humanity right up until the very end where the game just kinda forgets about that so it can have a happy ending.
The rest of the game isn't great compared to UT but Undertale Yellow is what UT genocide should've been, the demon baby stuff is so cringe.

>>712882802
Ew. I feel like I need to scrub myself with a wire brush.
>>712882861
I don't like her to begin with.

>>712883828
Humans are an order of magnitude more powerful than monsters.

>>712884351
The monsters don't want to exterminate humanity, they want to be free and the man who promised them freedom also promised he'd keep them safe by exterminating humanity after getting them out. They don't know anything about humans. Generations have passed for them since the War and the Barrier, the only thing they know about humans is what you do to them and what the people in charge tell them.

In Neutral endings you can have Toriel take over as Queen and start preaching for amnesty for humans, if you didn't kill many monsters they'll accept it, if you killed a bunch then they kick her off the throne.

>>712884695
Fair enough

>tfw spend 16 hours a day crying over a game you haven't played and only know about through posting on 4chan 16 hours a day

>>712884771
Show some respect, this man spent more money on this game than all of /v/ combined.

>>712884695
>The monsters don't want to exterminate humanity
>Every interaction with monsters is them immediately trying to kill you
What did Toby mean by this?

>>712883724
So?

>WTF I WENT WELL OUT OF MY WAY TO KILL EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER IN THE UNDERGROUND AND NOW THE LAST MAN ALIVE IS CALLING ME THE BAD GUY
>HE SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT AAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEE WHAT THE FUCK CANCEL THIS SJW FAGGOT DEV
I see, I think...

Originally I thought I found Undertale's message of pacifism cliche and boring. But the more I took time to think about what its message REALLY was, and take the time to absorb it, I realized that holy shit so many /v/irgins get filtered hard by it, by obvious posts like >>712878717 >>712882543

>>712882148
>you should either kill everyone or save everyone
Subhuman type thinking

>>712885996
If you think that's the ideal ending when you know there are better, you're the subhuman here.

>>712886441
>Subhuman
>Over pixels on a screen dying
You have some twisted morality, I'd say.

Undertale really uncovered a lot of mentally unwell people. People who are genuinely angry over pixels on a screen dying. The fact they can't separate fiction from reality is kind of disturbing to me.

>>712877721 (OP)
Ten years later and /v/ still doesn't understand Undertale
Maybe even less than on release, with all the zoomers who have never played it
Never change, /v/

>>712887425
Toby wants to do Genocide btw.
>>712881272
>>712881387

>>712879254
Well you're immortal here. No fight needs to end with violence now, you can just try again until you talk it out. You aren't beholden to the risks of this world in this game, so killing is really unjustified.

someone linked me the Undertale track and said it was a masterpiece but it kinda sounded like a shitty knock-off of Because I Love You from EarthBound and was nothing special

>>712886996
The inability to emphathize or understand concepts is a sign of lower thinking.

tranny leftist "game"
you get what you paid for

>>712882626
toriel's very obviously holding back and with every turn she loses precision. people who say frisk was never in real danger assume that people would know about the retarded meta shit on their first playthroughs though.

>>712887584
>so killing is really unjustified.

Everything I do is justified because it's me doing it.

>>712887849
you're a pretty gross person, aren't you?

>Stops your “morally justifiable” killing spree
>Spares you even if you attack him each turn as you don’t do enough damage to kill him by the time he spares you
>Can’t actually kill you, will let you past if you lose enough times
>Auto spares you on genocide

>>712887935
Papyrus is easily one of the most likable video game characters out there.

>>712887994
really because the game seemed like it had potential until you ran into him and sans

>spares you even if you're a mass murdering psychopath steadily depopulating the Underground because it's physically impossible to kill any spiders

hotline miami did it better

>>712888084
marathon did it too

>>712888043
We LOVE spiders, don't we folks?

>>712877721 (OP)
after chapter 4, I genuinely think he hates our guts

>>712887864
If not-mes don't want me to kill them, they shouldn't exist in my world.

>>712881272
>>712881387
Insane how many people got filtered and didn't understand this at all

>>712887935
>>712887994
>Toby puts a "lol so randumb XD" wacky character in his game
>The character is genuinely fun, funny, and likable
HOW did he do it?

>>712880714
>>712881272
In a practical lense, there's no reason for Toby to include these battles and content if he didn't believe in the value of it. It's not something like Spec Ops The Line that forces you through a narrative, it's a narrative made particulary for people that want the most out of the game.

>>712878717
What is he gonna do about it? Kill me?

>>712879468
Somebody went through the effort to make one of my shitposts a reality.
Cheers to whoever made this, your existence is a wonderful refutation of dead internet theory.

>>712884608
Yet 6 of them died anyway

>>712882148
This. Imagine trying to play a game. This is why everyone has to watch 6 hours of video essays before playing, so they can start it knowing all of the spoilers and secrets in advance.

Did that doodle anon ever deliver yesterday?

>>712888043
Her genocide dialogue is pretty funny, there should be an ending for doing genocide but still sparing her

>>712879468
>>712878717
Ironically, Susie's "evil run" in Dragon Chasers 2 claims she did the evil route by mistake.
So that is something she would say.

>>712882802
She shouldn't be a teacher, that's just begging for troubles

>>712892214
Alphys NEEDS to be bullied. Imagine being a teacher while being afraid of a student.

hey guys, here is the ending you guys wanted.

Is Kris Chara

>>712892528
Toriel would NEVER approve