Thread 713370594

Why are hack and slash games rare now? These used to be huge back in the 2000s and early 2010s.

Kamiya and Mikami don't make them anymore

>>713370594 (OP)
Because an insane amount of work goes into them to make them "good" and they are met with a flood of complaints by the people who play them and 400k people buy and play it globally.

For example. DMC5 was really good production and gameplay but, the characters are gay Final Fantasy "LOOK AT MY HAIR" characters people hate.

>>713370594 (OP)
Because we don't get shitty movie tie-in games anymore and AA budget games are dead.

>>713370867
>the characters are gay Final Fantasy "LOOK AT MY HAIR" characters people hate

>>713370594 (OP)
Soulslop replaced them. It's easier to make a souls game than an action game like DMC.

>>713370594 (OP)
press X to awesome is boring

>>713371229
This is the answer. And even if Dark Souls didn't kill them, any kind of revival would be a boring as shit particle spam parry simulator (wukong and stellar blade)

>>713370848
Kamiya's making Okami 2 rn so that isn't true anymore.

>>713371765
Calling Okami an action game is like calling Zelda an action game.

>>713370594 (OP)
Good ones with elaborate combos were always extremely rare (DMC, Bayo, NG), sloppy ones where there's just a couple of combos and a bunch of guns/special abilities/gimmicks never went anywhere, they're still around. A lot of them are now gachas, a lot have an open world

>>713371554
what pains me the most is that new "hack n slash" games take everything from sekiro and bloodborne from pace of action to gameplay mechanics and only bother adding a couple "cuhrayzee" moves so they can say 'we were inspired from dmc too!'
fucking maddening. i don't have high hopes, but deep down i wish ng4 shows everyone what a proper action game is like
>>713370867
stupid nigger, dante and vergil are among the most beloved characters in vidya

>>713372097
>new "hack n slash" games take everything from sekiro and bloodborne
Those aren't hack and slash games. ZZZ is a hack and slash game, these are action RPGs you're upset about.

most of them were shit button mashers

>>713370594 (OP)
>Tfw recently got into Metal Gear Rising for the first time
>Tfw just started Vanquish for the first time after buying with Bayonetta which you also haven't played

>DMC5 was really good production and gameplay but, the characters are gay Final Fantasy "LOOK AT MY HAIR" characters people hate.
How the fuck do faggots like you end up on this website of all websites? Can't you please just fuck off back to Twitter or Twitch or wherever the fuck you came from? You don't belong here.

>>713372347
Why are you posting my stupid cumdump crying, it being 2025 and you having not played those is a blessing. You get to enjoy them fresh

>>713370594 (OP)
because hack n slash games are for racist white men and they dont exist anymore

>>713371524
True I hate elden ring

>>713372204
action rpgs are games where you make set builds and grow your character like an rpg, aka souls-likes or nioh-like games, many have started going for the "pseudo hack n slash" formula that was born from nioh and bloodborne but still don't truly count as pure cuhrayzee, where the only building and leveling up there is are what weapons you bring to the mission and buying upgrades to your moveset
now new "hack n slash" games like stellar blade and sekiro don't have the aforementioned features but take much inspiration from sekiro or soulslikes rather than actual games in the genre, they're closer to the average cuhrayzee-adjacent beat em up like god hand or no more heroes. they don't focus on actually giving players vast highly technical movesets to grind and style at
also, never bring that gachashit into the argument ever again. no action game worth the name is played with one fucking button

>>713371554
>>713371229
>>713372097
This and I hate it so much.
>Stellar Blade
I honestly have more respect for Senran Kagura or Oneechanbara

>>713372204
I feel guilty due to my hatred of gacha but i started zzz and it's a lot of fun

play Stellar Kino.

>>713373543
soulslop.

>>713373575
you didn't play it.

>>713370867
>the characters are gay Final Fantasy "LOOK AT MY HAIR" characters people hate.

>>713373628
I did. It's soulshit trash and not an action game.

>>713373769
ok faggot

>>713373820
Deal with it tranny. SB sucks.

>>713373858
>anti-SB tranny accusing others of being trannies
yeah that's not going to work, faggot.

>>713370594 (OP)
The genre and platinum has one last chance.

ps2 was the time for massive game experimentation. by the time ps3 rolled around it became heavily corpo sterilized.

>>713373943
>anti-SB
Yes I'm anti bad games indeed, what about it tranny?

>>713370594 (OP)
Now look up what "hack and slash" games actually are.

>>713374046
>Yes I'm anti bad games indeed, what about it tranny?

Replaced by rollslop

>>713374152
This you?
SB just sucks dude, sorry you have shit tastes.

>>713370867
>For example. DMC5 was really good production and gameplay but, the characters are gay Final Fantasy "LOOK AT MY HAIR" characters people hate.

Anon, I think it is you who is gay and people hate. Everyone loves DMC5 cast.

>>713373387
i'd argue even some indie games that DO take inspiration from the good games are lacking in some parts, i noticed many chink action games have poor camera work (really underrated part of what made the classics so good to look AND play) and tend to abuse visual effects like they were demon slayer or some shonenshit. it's one of the reasons i didn't like as much assault spy despite the good rep it has here (emphasis on as much: i still think it was a fun, if unpolished, game, but it was lacking in the aforementioned points which took my enjoyment down a notch)

>>713370594 (OP)
they're boring, and the feedback from succeeding in a hack and slash isn't as satisfying.

the question is why beat 'em ups >>>> hack and slash

>>713374310
>the feedback from succeeding in a hack and slash isn't as satisfying.
I have a feeling this is only true for DMC but not others.

>>713374310
old school beat em ups with barely any movesets are crap, fuck you

>>713373769
Filtered

>>713370594 (OP)
too many hacks
not enough slash

People don't want to play hack-and-slash games, they want to play Devil May Cry. Most developers don't have the confidence to have their game compared to that kind of a juggernaut, especially since Devil May Cry doesn't even have a perfect record when it comes to fan reception.

>>713370867
>requires insane amount of work to make them "good"
>they are met with a flood of complaints by the people who play them
This. Slave X was garbage.

>>713370848
Mikami's never made a hack and slash, Closest he's gotten has been God Hand which is exclusively a beat em up

>>713370867
>the characters are gay Final Fantasy "LOOK AT MY HAIR" characters people hate.
based on the replies this comment seemed to have struck a nerve

>>713373304
>aka souls-likes or nioh-like games
You mean KH?

>>713370867
Do you even know what anime hair looks like you stupid nigger? 10/10 bait made me respond

>>713370594 (OP)
>These used to be huge back in the 2000s and early 2010s
No they weren't, otherwise these threads wouldn't be discussing the same 3 games every single damn time. The most common type of combat before Souls was still basically Souls combat but without the stamina bar. Miyazaki just took the most basic combat system that games were using back then and used it in his game since combat wasn't the main focus of DeS nor were Fromsoft capable of making something more advanced. Then with DaS he found out that this basic as hell combat + "Prepare to Die" marketing was the perfect combination to sell his game to retards who thought they were the most hardcore gamers of all time because they beat a mildly difficult action RPG.

>>713370594 (OP)
1. They never made they much profit < This is important
2. They're really fucking hard to make and require mastery of enemy design to feel fleshed out.
3. You have to be able to design a game with little to no long-ital progression with room for expression.

>>713370594 (OP)
Everyone seems to forget the same thing that happened to soulslikes today happened to action games back in the 00s. DMC came out, and while there were still unique action games being made at the time, eventually everyone tried to be DMC. Then God of War came out, and everyone tried to be the next GoW. Any game that didnt try to be GoW or DMC simply didnt sell, and most of them didnt sell anyway which is why this genre is a ghost town, its an inherently niche genre, it just doesnt appeal to normies the way shooty games, rollslop RPGs and gachaslop do, designing a stylish action game is extremely hard, and most people that play them nowadays just do it for social media streamer reaction clout, where they play the first two levels and go OMG OMG THIS GAME IS SO HARD??? and then drop it. Everyone else who tries it wont bother to understand the combat and will complain its too hard. Most of the people who made these games were old school japs who cut their teeth in the arcades of the 80s/90s and thats where their design came from, and that sense of design/difficulty is rapidly becoming a lost art.

>>713381128
I can't think of one actual DMC clone and even the GoW clones were few and mostly low budget garbage. The only somewhat notable one is Dante's Inferno.

>>713370594 (OP)
I'd happily take another honest Diablo, Gauntlet or Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance kind of game.

Because hack and slash/character action games are extremely niche even back in the day.
Think about it. The most marketed and arguably most popular DMC, 5, made like 5 million copies in a year. It debuted on steam with around 80k ccu. Meanwhile stellar blade, a hack and slash/sekiro hybrid from an unknown dev made 2 million copies from a single platform then 1 million from pc in a week and launched to 150k+ ccu.
Even games like Lies of P made 3m.
Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta would KILL for sales like these but nobody plays them. Look at how few gave a fuck about NG2 Black. You cant even just excuse that gooners only player SB because nobody gives a shit about TN's fanservice girls either and NG2 boasted playable Ayane, Momoji and Kasumi.
This genre has a big issue where people only really want DMC and nothing else.
As mentioned before it takes a decade of dev experience and animation expertise to make the games feel good but it has all the returns of a 2d sprite game in current year which is to say not worth it.
With Kamiya gone from Capcom, I wonder what the future holds for this genre.

>>713382017
I meant Itsuno but eh, Bayonetta is dead for the forseeable future as well.

There's a very large rift between people who want God of War games and people who want Devil May Cry games. Beyonetta is one of my favorite games, I will never touch either the PS2 god of wars, or god forbid the PS4 god of wars. The market generally favors the former.
Plus, even if you make a successful entry, your next game could fuck literally everything up. Again, Bayonetta is one of my favorite games, I fucking hate Bayo 2 and 3.

There is Tides of Annihilation but that is marketed more as a Jennifer English game than it is a hack and slash game.

>>713382429
>meter
You've already lost me.

>>713382418
Well funnily enough GoW had to reinvent itself because the original GoW games werent selling enough.
Hack and Slash games are honestly just a LITTLE bit above musou games in terms of being marketable. Look at FF16. No amount of flashy moves and effects can save that game.

>>713382429
When do they fight back?

>>713375324
You’re a moron

>>713383090
Same time they get to fight back in Devil May Cry or Dark Souls whenever you're hitting a single shitter enemy.

>>713382017
>Hard
Aside from maybe NG, the genre was absolutely NOT known for difficulty. In fact it was known as being THE braindead genre for people who didnt bother to learn the combat system because it was extremely easy for the combat to be insane repetetive against enemies that barely fought back. Even in 5, there were no difficult bosses at all and most just complained about the forced V sections which were a complete chore. DMC really just lucked out because of the charismatic cast and good music and being the most well known brand.

>>713383228
Meant for >>713381128

>>713383184
You just explained why this genre doesn't sell.

>>713383228
What the fuck in that post are you quoting?

>>713383184
Nah, hollows in souls can absolutely fuck you up if you get careless which is why the game had a stamina meter to begin with.

>>713382429
>another chinese ue5 asset flip with generic character designs
pass
the only chink action game that caught my interest so far was showa american story

>>713383341
I also mentioned Dark Souls, dumbass. It's crazy to me how Fromfags constantly use punching bag enemies as an insult, meanwhile 90% of the enemies you fight in those games get stunlocked by R1 mashing or they're so slow it takes them 5 seconds to wind up one attack. And passive as fuck enemies are exclusively a DMC issue, which is the only CAG that sells well.

>>713383661
Wow that looks really boring.

>>713383512
Yeah, if you're severely brain damaged I guess they can

>>713383661
Thats obviously a collision issue.
>Also modded character
Might also be playing with cheats too

>>713383808
there are some enemies that are actually challenging, namely the shrouded monks in sempou, but they are scarce. the invader samurais and the enemy shinobis are also tough

>>713383872
>Thats obviously a collision issue.
With your brain colliding with ground when you were child.
>Might also be playing with cheats too
Yeah dude, changing how the model looks is totally the same as playing with cheats.

>>713370594 (OP)
The last one was Wanted: Dead and that was to complex for the general audience.

>>713384190
It was also low budget shit that never got marketed anywhere because I only knew of that game from Angry Joe's 10 top worst games of 2023 and mostly just skimmed it because apparently Joosten is in it and I just cringed from second hand embarrassment.

>>713384190
Shut up Mork.

>>713383228
imo it's a problem of devtime priority on whether to focus on enemies or bosses
games with good enemies tend to have bad bosses, and viceversa games with good bosses tend to have lame enemies
the priority should be on designing the game so the weaker side doesn't have much impact on the enjoyment, either by making semi-boss rush games or longer levels with fewer bosses

>>713374282
>reddit filename
of course you're a dmc5 nigger

>>713384424
Well V in this case was just all around disappointing in terms of normal mobs and bosses.
3 imo still has the most memorable enemy roster for me.

>>713384590
DMC5 has basically the best enemy roster in the genre whereas DMC3 has one of the worst. You don't know what you're talking about.

>>713384729
In what way? None of the bosses were memorable or difficult and the only enemy mob that stood out was the teleporting red lizard.

>>713384729
>good enemy is when it doesnt fight back

>>713384729
>the best enemy roster in the genre
Oh please shut the fuck up

>>713370594 (OP)
It's a paradigm shift.
God of War and Devil May Cry's overtook everything in the 00s
Batman Arkham freeflow combat overtook everything with its flashy moves that magnetize to all enemies in the 2010s.
From soft's basic bitch 1 light attack swing and heavy attack + parry/roll overtook everything in present 2020s.

>>713370594 (OP)
They're harder to make than most other genres and harder to monetize, simple as.
Like there's a reason most action games copy Soulsborne combat nowadays, and it's not because Dark Souls has some super-deep combat system. It's because it's really simple; most weapons only need a 2-swing combo and like 90% of the groundwork has already been laid out.
Whereas if you wanted to make a proper DMC rival, you'd need unique animations for all the weapons, unique movement mechanics, probably special gameplay mechanics/gimmicks, etc. This isn't even getting into bosses and enemies to take advantage of all that. There were a number of DMC clones on PS2, but games like NG and Bayo show you don't need a unified control scheme.

>>713384424
It's a problem of devs not knowing what they want to do with their games. You can very easily make a balanced enemy/boss roster but you have to actually stick with the game's mechanics. Onimusha 1 had no bad enemies and it's a game from 2001 that started development on the PS1, and yet somehow Ninja Gaiden still gave us the phantom fish and DMC still gave us Soul Eaters and Chimeras.

*The* problem with the genre is that outside a few exceptions devs are rarely confident in their own games so they add stupid gimmicks of any kind imaginable. QTEs, pointless exploration, puzzles, stealth sections, swimming sections, shmup sections, you name it, there's a hack and slash that's had it. This is the only genre where it took two decades for devs to realize consumers actually do like playing their game as they are.

>>713385325
Onimusha is almost the same basic bitch combat as Dark Souls, it's incredibly easy to design enemies for a character that's that incredibly limited.

>>713385325
>QTEs, pointless exploration, puzzles, stealth sections, swimming sections, shmup sections, you name it, there's a hack and slash that's had it. This is the only genre where it took two decades for devs to realize consumers actually do like playing their game as they are.

I hope you jest because people actually appreciate those sections provided they dont take too long (Bayo 1's 10 min long space harrier ugh) because it serves to break up the combat segments. Hell people praised automata for constantly changing genres every hour and that game is unironically the second highest selling hack and slash game after dmc5.

>>713384901
>In what way?
In the being fun to fight way? None of the enemies in DMC5 is a literal rock or will play peekaboo with you, which can't be said for DMC3. Instead there's dozens of ways to play around them and with them.

>>713385007
>combo game bad because combo

>>713385032
Go cry about it.

>>713385650
Th people who bought Automata did so because 2B has a huge ass and le epick Yoko Taro story, of course they don't care about gameplay.

>>713385690
>there's dozens of ways to play around them
So there's no distinct strategy? Got it. Enjoy your button masher.

>>713385690
>Fighting punching bags is fun
And this is why the genre is dead. The average action gacha mob are more aggressive than DMC5 enemies.

>>713385690
>dude combos!!! SSS XDD!! GIVE ME SANDBAGS right fucking now!!!
holy fucking redditor

>>713370594 (OP)
Soulslike games killed the genre.

>>713385979
>Low effort shit like nightreign likely sold more copies by now on steam alone than the entire bayo franchise
Grim

>>713385840
>this is why the genre is dead
>saying this in regards to DMC5, the best selling title in the genre
You people are insanely retarded and clearly haven't played or even seen gameplay of anything besides DMC anyway.

>>713385523
You say that but games with the same level of complexity still fail to design enemies. And more complex games fail even harder. Nothing forced the DMC4 team to make a bunch of enemies centered wholly are the Devil Bringer. Come DMC5 you still get the DB but none of the enemies are designed like that and, would you believe it, it still works perfectly fine as another part of Nero's kit. Same thing with the DmC color coded enemies being centered around weapon types that were already designed differently.

It's entirely a dev philosophy problem.

>>713386175
Dmc5 came out 7 years ago anon. Also the man who made it is no longer with Capcom.

>>713386175
>bargain bin sales
RE6 must be one of the the best game in the series then.

>>713385839
>i want enemies that force me to fight in one way and one way only
Kill yourself, cancer.

>>713385840
>>713385858
You're the same type of Down's syndrome that will jerk yourselves about being elitist and muh arcades while chiding a game for rewarding you for aggression and being proactive.

Kill yourselves too.

>>713370594 (OP)
Souls clones took over.

>>713386307
>Dmc5 came out 7 years ago
>Also the man who made it is no longer with Capcom
What do either of those have to do with anything I said in my post?
>>713386351
>bargain bin sales
All the other games in the genre have also gotten those. How much did NG2 with it's super aggressive enemies sell? Because clearly enemy aggression isn't the key to the sales. And I've already pointed out the average Souls enemy is passive and pathetic as shit too so you can fuck off with that argument.

>>713386572
>comparing console exclusives from a different era
nu-gow raped shitsunos slop in sales btw

>>713386403
Enjoy your musous.

>>713386403
>rewarding you for aggression and being proactive
the enemies are passive sandbags in dmc 5, being aggressive only feels rewarding if you're a casual redditor

>>713370594 (OP)
They're a genre made by Hacks so companied had to Slash their development.

>>713386863
It really is funny. All these hotshot devs who made big name action games in the 2000s are now washed up has beens.

>>713386765
DMC5 has the largest amount of high end enemies in the series, nigga. Go mash on a Proto Angelo or Hell Judecca and they'll just parry you or teleport out of your attacks.

If you believe the sandbag meme you literally never got past Mission 2 where an enemy specifically designed around punishing knockback is introduced.

>>713382429
>energy meter for special attacks
this shit already looks like ass. The only acceptable limit to your moveset that a character in an action game should have is their devil trigger equivalent.
if they are so worried about enemy balance reasons that they feel the need to limit your special moves then the enemies should just be made harder instead

>>713386745
Enjoy your... uh... nothing?

>>713387005
>DMC5 has the largest amount of high end enemies in the series, nigga
fodder in the older games was more threatening
>If you believe the sandbag meme you literally never got past Mission 2 where an enemy specifically designed around punishing knockback is introduced.
oh yeah the enemy that you juggle just like 90% of the roster. with the punish in question being a braindead clash gimmick that turns sends it back into sandbag mode

>>713387005
>DMC5 has the largest amount of high end enemies in the series, nigga
fodder in the older games was more threatening
>If you believe the sandbag meme you literally never got past Mission 2 where an enemy specifically designed around punishing knockback is introduced.
oh yeah the enemy that you juggle just like 90% of the roster. with the punish in question being a braindead clash gimmick that sends it back into sandbag mode

>>713373965
Im not even bothered by Yakumo but I think the magnetism will ruin the game. Positioning isn’t gonna matter at all.

>>713387325
>fodder in the older games was more threatening
Oh yeah, Damned Pawns were so threatening. Just like Scarecrowds. Hiw about Frost melting to a couple Infernos, unable to even start attacking you? Or Nobody dying to stinger spam to the face? Let's not forget marvels of game design like Shadow and Blitz, enemies who only get to waste your time because they make 80% of your offense worthless. Or how about Sargasso, Fault, Hell Wrath... The list of "threatening" enemies that are just NES-tier gimmicks is very long, y'know?

>>713387743
Okay so post yourself no damaging the secret mission with shadows.

>>713387407
>no you SHOULDN'T be allowed to have the upper hand on a normal enemy!
>you HAVE to WAIT for their attack to be done, you CAN'T stop it it's THEIR turn!!!
Buddy Elden Ring is right there for you if you don't want to have any control over the enemy, nobody is forcing you to play good videogames.

>>713387943
Which one? There's three of those bitches. Besides what would that prove? Of course Shadow is hard to no damage, you literally can't hit with your sword until it's turned off.

>>713388183
>bro the enemies are so farking easy!!! just a one note nes gimmick!

>>713370594 (OP)
You got FFXVI 2 years ago or last year, which was fun when you actually get to fight. Combat was basic, but not a deal breaker.

>>713388507
And it slopped and flopped

>>713388484
NES games were often pretty hard, y'know? It's how something is challenging that matters. Making an enemy insta-damage you if you try most of your attacks on you is not hard to implement and takes no creativity from a dev. Simply making things hard isn't impressive. If it were people would play H&H over DMD. But one is correctly considered a gimmick while the other one is the true game.

>>713370594 (OP)
hard to make. its like making a fighting game. easier to make fps games. also zoomies dont play fighting games.

>>713385325
the puzzles and exploration are much needed breaks between the action. if its just an endless succession of monster closets it becomes just as mindless and boring as not having enough of them.

>>713385147
>it's not because Dark Souls has some super-deep combat
even shallower now with all the parry and stagger slop. players dont have to think too much because there arent much in the way of combinations to use.

>>713370594 (OP)
>Why are hack and slash games rare now?
Diablo 2 has perfected the genre
your pic not rel brudda

They're too much effort for too little return. DMC5 selling so well is an outlier for the action genre. It doesn't help when cinematic nuGOW, Tsushimsa, capeshit like BamHam and Spider-Man or Soulslikes eclipse action either. Stealth basically died because every game had stealth in it, killing the unique value the stealth genre had. So only enthusiasts of the genre remain to truly support it but they are too few in number.

>>713371229
>hack'n'slash, a sub-genre of RPGs where story takes the backseat and main focus is going around killing shit
Souls is much more hack'n'slash than DMC (a narrative driven beat'em-up) could ever be.

>>713390474
DMC5 also had a ton of hype and push. Meanwhile notice how nobody is talking about NG4. Trying to market these games requires an extraordinary amount of factors that need to line up for it to actually be successful. Having deep combat systems alone isn't enough to draw in a crowd because for the most part, people don't really care about that.

>>713370867
Go to bed Tameem.
You had your shot and Capcom went right back to what they had.>>713370867

>>713370594 (OP)
Yeah the last .Hack game was, what, more that a decade ago?
I've never heard a game series titled Slash, is it good?

Hello chat. Just got done with my base health bar playthrough on UN and I am cooked.