Thread 713408000

How the fuck did they do this? Modern games need 90-series graphics cards to pull off real-time reflections and this fucker was running on voodoo cards and pentium CPU's!?
What happened!?

It wasn't real time

its an entire copy of the level mirrored.

>>713408126
It shows the reflection even as you play.
Try again, nvidiajew.

>>713408462
No I mean the 90s weren't a real time. Like at all.

>>713408462
What happened to the guy behind the desk?

I understand this thread is trolling but it's actually funny how often people echo this retarded assertion that if only developers knew what they were doing they could just use planar reflections instead of ray tracing and everything would be great.

One of those textbook Dunning Kruger-pilled arguments.

>>713408126
why does it need to be real time you faggot

>>713409080
You think RT stood for Ray Traced? They have played you for a fool. I bet you think the 90s were real too.

You can't do this in 2025 because it would allow you to see up skirts.

>>713409071
surely you could use planar reflections but have the reflection with much less detail to get the same effect, with less of a performance hit

ray tracings funny because its better than ssr but it doesnt seem to reflect the actual player. Its like that movie sphere.

>>713409071
Explain why they can't then, smartypants

>>713408846
Vampire.

>>713409353
are you retarded, rt can reflect any object, devs just blacklist certain things that will need too many bounces to look good/update too often
if you let the player reflect with your gi, but your update interval is every 500ms, the player's going to obviously notice their reflection is half a second latent, and many rt games use a lower update freq than that
i swear you niggas don't think critically about something for even a second before you ingrain it in your brain as fact

>>713409671
Show me an example of RT reflecting the player
>rest of your post probes my point
You actual retard

>>713408126
I guess it's turn-based, huh?

>>713409386
For a reflection you need to render the scene again. In old games the scene complexity was low so you could easily so that. In modern games the scene complexity is high and it's not the extra polys that cost you the performance but all the effects that make the scene look good. If you do reflections naively it will cut your framerate in half, maybe more if parts of the graphics pipeline are bottlenecked from doing that.
This is why before real time path tracing we had screen space reflections. SSR even used to be called ray tracing back in the day. Now we have hardware that's capable of limited real time path tracing so none of those tricks are necessary.
On a modern nvidia GPU (and AMD starting with RDNA4) you can have a path traced scene that runs well. The reason why modern games run like shit isn't the technology or the move to path traced scenes but shitty devs and unreal engine 5 being a terrible fucking engine. If you limit the rays and bounces to 1, path traced Cyberpunk runs better than modern UE5 slop because nvidia closely worked with CDPR to optimise it. The nvRTX fork of UE5 also runs well.
If you had AMD or nvidia guys developing vidya instead of shitty game devs they'd all run like a dream. The problem is that a guy at nvidia or AMD makes four times what a game dev does and there is no incentive for talent to ever go into game dev. Game devs are the McDonald's wagies of the tech world, even below web devs.

>>713408846
He's a >kaplan so naturally lacks soul

>>713409386
It's not so much that they can't, it's that the juice is not usually worth the squeeze. There are examples of games that do have limited planar reflections as an alternative to ray tracing. Control, Doom, a lot of modern racing games do this.

But it's a tremendous amount of work to get every planar probe optimized such that you're not doubling the rendering cost, and the nature of reflections is such that you usually have to do it individually for each environment where they appear. There can also be weirdness with lighting, transparency, etc. that are all handled in a singular solution with ray tracing.

>>713410025
chuddie, you couldn't even write a simple hello world stop larping and put the damn fries in the bag before they get cold

Can Deus Ex do this??

>>713410148
On a 4080 and faster MegaLights shadows are actually faster if you use ray tracing instead of virtual shadows maps, in addition to looking better.

>>713410025
bro you're actually retarded, i just gave a usecase for why games that aren't targeting absolutely top of the line hardware don't, but there are games that do, cyberpunk on maxed settings for example, it's just not playable on anything but a $5000 pc, sh2r also does on max settings but honestly i think that was jsut an accident because it's only incidental objects that take bounces from the player so it seems more like an oversight, but you could have those bounces run on glass and mirrors they just need to be whitelisted and have the right materials, and that's just the first 2 that immediately come to mind
then you get in to the fact that many fps games don't have an actual playermodel, so they don't reflect the player since there isn't one, but they do reflect other npcs in the world, which is no different from reflecting the player it's just a dev choice to not have made a playermodel or to have it blacklisted so it doesn't look weird, like quake 2 rtx reflects actors, but i don't recall it reflecting the player, that doesn't mean you couldn't whitelist the player (desu it might reflect the player but idk it was years ago)

>>713408000 (OP)
If you draw half of a stickman (vertically), it's easy to just reflect him about a vertical line in the middle and have a complete stickman. It takes little effort and looks the same.
You can't do that with a detailed drawing of a person because it will look off and be more effort than just drawing a full detailed person from the get go.
You can use planar reflections in new games but it will perform and look like shit. The technique isn't some lost knowledge it just doesn't work well with modern games.

>>713410074
>If you limit the rays and bounces to 1
1 bounce is really not enough. You would need at least 3 for it to look anything better than traditional raster.

>>713410519
faggot you are retarded. You are arguing against a made up person in your head.
You just proved yourself wrong in your own post. You don't know as much about this topic as i do

>Fake frames
:)
>Fake reflections
>:(

Planar reflections are extremely efficient if you optimize them. They're far from halving your frame rate because while it does render applicable geometry and lighting twice, it's not an entire second pipeline.
Problem is that you can't really do planar reflections with a deferred renderer in a reasonable fashion because it requires you to run all kinds of extra calculation. The renderer needs to know what's being reflected and what to draw in the reflection at each step from the camera's position or it simply won't work, and that's extremely performance hungry. Especially with lots of lighting, effects and transparencies it can nuke your frame rate into oblivion.

Games are regressing

>>713410074
>If you do reflections naively it will cut your framerate in half,
damn, so glad rt solved this.

unreal engine also had highly detailed textures back then
If you moved up close the texture detail was really high res.

>>713410074
>YOU CAN'T DO SIMPLE OLD SCHOOL REFLECTIONS BECAUSE IT HAS TO DOUBLE THE RENDERING
>UNLIKE RAYTRACING WHICH HAS TO DO THREE TIMES THE WORK, WAY MORE EFFICIENT
Lol

>>713408000 (OP)
>AMDjeet makes this thread AGAIN

>>713410074
Bullshit. GTA5 has a second pass bounce and the dip in FPS might as well be a rounding error.

>>713410238
Yes thats how i passed a dark corridor with 10 LAMs

>>713409386
Planar reflections are just the most obvious thing raytracing does
Ambient occlusion, shadows, bounce lighting and specular reflections (on non-smooth surfaces) look way better than SSAO, atlas shadows, baked lighting and cubemap reflections
Highly reflective surfaces actually look like ass with raytracing since you have to keep bounces low and frustum cull so you can’t even see shit behind you when looking into a mirror

>>713408000 (OP)
LOL. Forgotten tech running on super computers with quantum processing. Unfortunately not possible anymore.

>>713410238
The grenade is just bad programming. No one is gonna notice the absence of bounce lighting of a brief flash that lasts like a frame.

>>713408846
He's a vampire.

>>713411747
Love how shills are now shilling for absolute kike moves like needing to be connected 24/7 with servers scrutinizing the shit of your process to render gay frames. And everyone's gobbling it up.
Even for increasing the frame rate of videos stored on your pc. I remember a ridiculously small program doing that, building fake frames for animes to turn them into 60fps animes, it was around 2014, it worked offline. Now that kind of tech is ai slop and online use only.

>>713414284
Left is way better.

>>713408000 (OP)
It's a cheap trick, not an actual real-world simulation of how physics of lightning works.

>>713414284
Exactly. People act like reflections are the new budget killer when games like GTA5 were doing extra passes and particle lighting over a decade ago without melting your rig. It's all about optimization and intent. Devs now just slap RT on everything for marketing instead of understanding when and where it actually matters. They forgot how to squeeze performance out of traditional rendering techniques because "lol just let DLSS fix it."

>>713410074
>In old games the scene complexity was low so you could easily so that.
Old computers barely had the power to render the scene once, yet somehow they archieved rendering it twice. Polygons were MUCH more of a problem back then.
Go look for a better argument, nodev.
t. graphics programmer

Didn't deus ex run like garbage with hardware from 2000?

>>713408000 (OP)
Why are the objects brighter in the reflection? That's not how light behaves.

>>713408000 (OP)
Why don't you take a look at the map file, anon?

>>713417317
yes. at least it ran shit on my mac. Funny thing about Deus Ex was it was considered for a very short time to have good graphics. But in the space of a year a new gen of graphics came out and it was thought of pretty poorly in graphics.

>>713416907
No hope to deal with these retards. Some are genuine others simply malicious, both are free marketer grunts.

Although a different topic I had some of them claim modern games cannot have dedicated servers because consumer hardware and in particular internet connections can't cut it.

>>713410238
Why does the room turn orange for a bit?

>>713410074
>For a reflection you need to render the scene again
which also happens if you use raytracing to do it, no?

>>713419020
No, you're actually rendering once and mimicking the light bouncing off your character, and then the mirror.

>>713419137
but you also need to render the scene traditionally with rasterization, so you're rendering once with rasterization and once with raytracing (for the reflection)
only scenario where this doesn't apply is fully path-traced tech demos like quake and portal RTX

>>713408846
He was replaced with DEI hire

>>713419449
You're literally only rendering it once, though. The reflection isn't a second render, but the original render being reflected. That's what makes it magic.

>>713408000 (OP)
Our vision was augmented.

>>713417726
why this security guy top helmet its a crystal ball?

>>713408000 (OP)
That's a clever trick where there is an identical mirrored room below the transparent "floor"

>>713420867
well if you noclip you can't see an extra room

>>713420867
Okay so if you could do that in the 90's, just fucking do it today. Retard.

>>713421080
Like that one guy said the scene complexity is too much in modern games.

>>713421192
>complexity increased
And so did modern hardware. You are making excuses for incompetence and greed.

>>713421256
It's all in the numbers, you have to trust me.

>>713408846
MJ12 genetically engineered vampire

>>713419942
>The reflection isn't a second render, but the original render being reflected
no, that's screen space reflections
RT reflection means you're rendering the scene again by casting rays, it's just as costly as traditional planar reflections

>>713416661
>when games like GTA5 were doing extra passes and particle lighting over a decade ago without melting your rig
the image you replied to is from a recent GTA5 RT remaster, not original GTA5

>>713410885
>1 bounce is really not enough. You would need at least 3 for it to look anything better than traditional raster.
False. One bounce gives you perfect direct lighting, shadowing, and ambient occlusion on every object dynamically across the whole scene. What it does not give you is bounce lighting.

>>713408846
From the angle you wouldn't be able to see him, retard

Uhhh that doesn't count.

>>713410074
>meanwhile
>games are designed to run <30fps
>graphics have devolved from having working mirrors to grey smudges
>2 trillion tris to display a cube
Yeah, it's so fucking hard to render because the base is giga FUCKED.
Almost like nearly every drip of skill has been thoroughly squeezed out and stomped on until braindead.

>>713409071
I am sure there are retards who think that devs are genuinely unaware of old techniques. But the people who aren't retarded (and we all know you have seen them and just lumped them in with the aforementioned retards) assert that devs should be working with the legacy of those techniques instead of lazily adopting the Current Comprehensive Package which runs like shit and spoils whatever gain they might have toward photographic accuracy over the older techniques' efficient approximations.

The games simply don't look better by enough to justify the performance hit and the reason this is happening is not because what is now being used is *better* but because it is *cheaper.* But the real problem is that adoption of this is so great that there's hardly anyone actually working on pushing the boundaries of what can be done the "old way." And that it also makes them so lazy as to not bother with certain key things that should still be done - like offering more anti-aliasing methods than dogshit TAA and dogshit FXAA (other methods now also being "old way" as a result). And that they use a bunch of rendering cheats that are completely reliant on the more disgusting aspects of the modern packages so, if you turn off any of those aspects, you pull back the veil and find something horrifying.

>>713408000 (OP)
Woah the PS1 had RTX?

>>713425006
>Woah
>not whoa
NIGGA YOU GAY