Thread 713459468

Now that the dust has settled, why was this game so hated? They decided to try something new since everyone got mad at them for making BotW 2, but you dudes hated it.

It's like how they got so much shit for making Wind Waker even though it was one of their most unique games.

I didn't hate it.
It was fun.
I'm allowed to have fun.
I don't care what shitposters think.

why lie? it's very liked game both by critics and users

>>713459789


A lot of people disliked that there was no combat in the trad sense and they felt cheated out of having Link as a protagonist

>>713459893
>felt cheated out of having Link as a protagonist
why are gamers such faggots?

>>713459468 (OP)
I only skimmed discussion, but it seemed like people here thought it was alright, just needed more reason to use other types of objects or something. I watched a little gameplay and they just used water blocks and beds for everything so I see the point

>>713459468 (OP)
Because /v/ wants a new Zelda game that's just like traditional 2D Zelda or traditional 3D Zelda, and this isn't either of those.

>>713459468 (OP)
it was okay but a sequel would be amazing

Because just like BOTW/TOTK the solution to literally every problem was to stack shit and move on. When you have multiple ways to solve puzzles, one way becomes the best way which literally everybody uses. Why bother giving me 50+ items to spawn when I can just spawn a bed and pass over the whole thing? Why bother giving me dozens of usable machine parts in TOTK when the airbike solves every puzzle?

>>713461049


People were literally seething when you played for Raiden for most of MGS2. People get mad when they keep the same formula and then get mad when they change it

>>713461929
>more than one person exists
thanks for your insight

The mini dungeons with the boss rematches were kino, and the exploration and music were right up my alley. I do wish that the final dungeon was a bit more involved though, the last puzzle room is pretty much what I wish the entire dungeon was.

The 6* Echo hunts were cool, loved finding the Lynel

>>713461614
Explain to me how to complete Hebra Temple with only beds or water blocks

>>713459468 (OP)
Despite all the new stuff that Zelda as a franchise has either never done before or never done in the 2D-style. The game genuinely felt derivative to a fault.
I still love the game but I think this is why it failed to resonate with so many. It's extremely traditional.

>>713461614


It's a sandbox. The whole point is to try things. This is the issue with gamers you give them one solution and they get pissed at you. You give them a million solutions and they stick to one and say the other solutions were useless

>>713459468 (OP)
people with no imagination always hate open ended games

>>713462589
A lock that can be opened by 20 different keys of various sizes and shapes is a shitty lock. I never wanted multiple solutions to the puzzle, and I didn't want a bunch of physics playground hogshit in my Zelda game.

>>713463069
there's no winning with this kind of argument
either you're a retard for buying a game you knew you wouldn't like, or you're a retard for bitching about a game you haven't played

>>713463069
You say that as if you can't just go play one of the older things.
Go back to the Oracles or MC or the DS ones. They'll scratch that itch like nothing else

>>713459468 (OP)
it ran worse on switch than it did on emulators. and the games combat felt rough since you could only use link's weapons on an energy bar

it should have been ALBW graphics, or better, toon zelda.

>>713463147
I didn't buy it, I played it on Yuzu after TOTK was BOTW but worse.

>>713459468 (OP)
I gave it a play, didn't finish it but I enjoyed what I did play

Wasn't too bad. But I still think they should make the oracle games in that engine. Can't be too hard

>>713459468 (OP)
>why was this game so hated?

/v/ hates every Nintendo Switch game. They're losing their shit over Mario Kart right now. Next month they'll be losing their shit over Donkey Kong.

And then after that they'll be losing their shit over Metroid Prime 4.

It's the best new Zelda since A Link Between Worlds.

>>713459468 (OP)
For me it's Platbooms and Mothulas.

>>713459893
>they felt cheated out of having Link as a protagonist
why did they feel cheated when that's the fucking premise of the game

>>713461614
>Because just like BOTW/TOTK the solution to literally every problem was to stack shit
Did you download botw.exe via limewire or something? How the fuck is that totk/botw

>>713461614
Ah yes, the obligatory "I've played BOTW/TOTK for 1 hour, which is enough to larp like I've gotten to the endgame."
Despite being great on emulator, BOTW attracts so many secondaries who get triggered that early shrines have middling puzzle complexity.
BOTW isn't a real puzzle game like Baba is You or Myst, but it has some legitimately fun exploration puzzles. Hint: they aren't the shrines. They will show up unannounced.

>>713463197


Such a dumb reason to hate

>>713459468 (OP)
ugly artstyle carried over from the LA remake, summon combat instead of the normal sword and shield(to be fair tho, the AI is retarded) and shitposters wanting a zelda game to fail

its a good game

>>713459468 (OP)
>put ganon on the cover
>ganon isn't really in the game
I have the feeling Nintendo doesn't like Ganon(dorf) anymore. He hasn't shown up as himself for over 10 years now, only as a Demise-adjacent demon guy.

>>713459468 (OP)
It was okay. That's it. The fact that you started the thread with the box art titled "underwhelming.jpg" indicates that you're already aware of this.

>>713468027
>ganon isn't really in the game
Except he is and it's one of the best Ganon boss fights in the series

>>713459468 (OP)
>why was this game so hated?
Most people shitposting about it haven't played it, and that includes "Zelda fans" in threads that are mad that Nintendo isn't pretending the OoT formula is good anymore. I loved it. It combined open physics based gameplay with beefier and more puzzle heavy dungeons and a cool world map.

>>713468204
Echoes are not the original.
Echo Ganon is not Ganon, just like Echo Zelda is not Zelda.

>>713468408
Aonuma's application of the OOT formula was never good. That's an Aonuma problem.

>>713459468 (OP)
I really liked it. huge enemy variety, cool dungeons and puzzles, unique combat approach, cute designs and great music. Glad 2D Zelda games (which have always been better than the 3D games) is still alive and kicking.

>>713462232
The retards making posts about the gsme just being "stack muh beds" never played it. They're just shitposters.

>>713468484
No, the OoT formula was just never good. WW and MM were good because of the parts that weren't like it, but OoT, TP and SS sucked.

>>713468027
>>ganon isn't really in the game
He certainly fucking is, what the holy fuck are you lying for?

>>713468775
Nope, Aonuma is just a fag. The fact that you call it the OOT formula instead of the ALTTP formula indicates that you are a similar breed of homosexual.

>>713459468 (OP)
It's just boring easy Nintendo slop for dumb iPhone children. Literally all Nintendo has ever put out since the restructured their software team.

>>713468913
>The fact that you call it the OOT formula instead of the ALTTP formula
Means I've actually played both games and aren't so impossibly fucking stupid that all I think matters for the "formula" is how many dungeons you do.

>>713468646
Nah, both anons are right. 97% of the game can be solved with your choice of flying tile, water block, bed stack, spiders, the thwomp-like platform, and probably some other things I'm forgetting that cover the majority of puzzles the game employs. Hebra has a few nonstandard ones that still have multiple solutions, but they aren't the usual one-size-fits-all answers. Game would likely be my favorite "2D" Zelda if all dungeons were like it.

>OoT snoys ask to "bring old Zelda back" while praising ALBW
>Nintendo does this
>they proceed to keep seething at Nintendo
It's almost as if seething is all they know.

>>713468960
>non sequitur
Well you have a good one then.

>>713469161
*cums on your face*

It's a fine game just nothing amazing. They really could've done worse- that being said, should've done better.

>>713469161
But i really liked Echoes of Wisdom....

The Volcano dungeon was weirdly insubstantial. I thought it was a prologue to the actual dungeon like the Ice Cavern in OoT.

Thoughts on Null?

>>713469596
It's weird how the second batch of dungeons contains the game's two best temples and its worst one.

>>713459468 (OP)
ehh, 6/10 game at best, and after getting the classic zelda games back on track with ALBW and LAremake, shame to see the classic formula get down in quality to PH/ST quality levels again.

>>713459468 (OP)
>hated
It was fun i liked it

>>713459893
does "a lot of people" include the BotW/TotK-exclusive audience?

>>713468824
>>713468419

>>713461929
People were annoyed with Raiden because of all the retarded bullshit with Rose.
Had it not been for that people wouldn't be so negative about it.

>>713459893
How can you feel cheated that link isnt the protagonist when the entire marketing campaign around the game is that it's Zelda's game and you dont play as link. This was not a mgs2 situation in the slightest

>>713459468 (OP)
>Something "new"
>Makes BotW 3
I hope the Nintendo headquarters collapse from an earthquake all while that fuck Aonuma is inside.

>>713470132
EoW sold barely over 2.5m copies.
The TOTK/BOTW audience doesnt care for the 2D zelda games.

>>713469792
>Null (Zelda)
>Void (Xenoblade)
>The End (Sonic)
I'm noticing a trend

>>713459468 (OP)
I hate how nintendo outsource their games to third parties and we end up with cheap throwaway crap like this game.
It doesn't even run properly, the frame rate jumps all over the place. Fucking inexusable for an exclusive title.

The main problem is the unfocused design, where you have 4000 items to use but you only need 2. "Bro just have fun trying shit out" - no i can't stand that. It's wasteful design. I prefer a small set of items in a game where every single one has a very specific purpose, and levels designed specifically so you have to use all of them equally.

>>713469240
>non sequitur
Learn what words mean. What I said was directly related to the topic of comparing the formula of both games, specifically how there's more to the formula than just the number of dungeons which is why LttP and OoT aren't the same formula. If you disagree, feel free to list their other similarities. If you can't, then don't try to damage control by using words you don't understand. Just accept that you don't know anything about Zelda and stop trying to lump LttP in with OoT's terrible formula.

>>713459468 (OP)
Imo, too expensive for what it is.

>>713471089
>seethes for 20 minutes straight
>returns just to babble about nothing some more

>>713470843
It all goes back to the Greek Chaos.

>>713471089
No, you post the differences. You're the one making the claim that they're different, after all.

>>713471192
>no answer
Didn't think so.

>>713471251
Sorry, that's not how this works. The claim regarding LttP and OoT was made here first
>>713468913
And everyone (who isn't a retarded shitposter) knows that you don't try to prove a negative. If they're the same, then list the similarities. If you can't, then they aren't the same.

>>713459468 (OP)
I'm looking forward to playing it after I'm done with Wind Waker on NSO Gamecube. I also wanna replay BotW and TotK with Zelda Notes though, And Breath of the Donkey Kong comes out in less than a month.

>>713471385
>seethes even when he 'wins'
lmao ur gay

>>713471560
>seethes
You're an underage thirdworlder.

>>713471624
you're seething and brown :/

>>713471650
>and brown
No, I'm not one of your kind.

>>713459468 (OP)
>Female Protagonists
LOL! You're gay, retard

>>713471739
>didn't deny that he's seething
u mad LMAO

>>713471776
Keep on shitposting, little brownie.

>>713471886
keep seething gayboi :)

>>713459468 (OP)
It was made by a remaster studio (Grezzo) and it shows. Even at its absolute peak it's mediocre at best. Usually it's bad.
>relies on a single gimmick for the entire game
>dungeons are crap
>puzzles are mostly shit and easily cheesed
>Zelda's ability comes from Tri and her big "power-up" is just turning into Link, doesn't actually feel like a Princess Zelda game
>story, characters, and setting are dogshit
>most boring companion in Zelda history
>rifts are tedious garbage
>artstyle is horrible
>music is forgettable
Summoning a small army to kill everything is kinda fun. Kinda. It devolves into mindless spam since there's not much consequence for your summons dying.
Superficially it seems like a return to form but it still suffers from a lot of the same problems of BotW/TotK and the "classic Zelda elements" are done very poorly. Why they thought bringing back the tears of light segments but on steroids I have no fucking clue.

>>713469792
Makes Bellum look like he has a personality.

>why was this game so hated?
hated by who? the complete biological detritus posting on /v/? there's only third worlders and 45 year old spergs left, the game was generally well received

>>713472359
All wrong. Using environmental objects isn't a gimmick, it's a mechanic. Gimmick doesn't mean "Anything that isn't a scripted lock and key interaction".

>>713473091
"well received" is being generous, it was basically just forgotten instantly

>>713473149
no, people enjoyed it and then moved on because contrary to that pants on head retarded narrative you're trying to push it's not necessary for a single player game to get constant discussion a year after release for the game to be well liked

>>713473110
>Using environmental objects
That's not what echoes are. They are summons. You aren't manipulating the environment, you are spawning objects.
You can solve the vast majority of non-combat challenges with the same 2-3 echoes. That's absolutely gimmicky.

>>713473253
>a year after release
it was genuinely forgotten after a couple days lol

>>713473365
obviously not since niggers like (You) are still seething about it to this day

>>713473294
>That's not what echoes are. They are summons
Summons of what?

I liked it. Thought it was fun and had it's charm.
I don't care for the art style, though. I really want a top-down Zelda that looks actually decent.

>>713473294
>You can solve the vast majority of non-combat challenges with the same 2-3 echoes.
never played the game award

what is it with zelda that prompts these faggots to lie endlessly about it?

>>713459468 (OP)
The artstyle was ugly.

During the first few hours of Echoes of Wisdom, I was enchanted as fuck by it. There were endless creative possibilities. But then they, very quickly, run out of ideas and it's just the same sorta shit over and over.

Most used echoes were Bed and Water Cube. Bed for crossing gaps, water cubes stacked so I could swim up anywhere. A few things had niche uses, but almost the entire game is dominated by bed and water.

I has the same issues has TotK, you get a bajillion options but only a few matter and everything was made for babies to be able to clear.

>>713459468 (OP)
2024 was the year of discriminating against 3rd parties touching 1st party Nintendo IP.
It was made by Grezzo hence it was a bad game, the irony of this is that people glaze Smash Brothers despite being a series that has never once been developed internally at Nintendo. Even Sakurai who people worship has never been at any point an employee at Nintendo.

>>713469989
>ALBW
>Classic Zelda
I know it LOOKS like ALttP and it has the same dungeon archetypes.
But ALBW is where everything went off the rails with Zelda and then the next game was BotW.
The last "classic" Zelda was still Skyward Sword after all, but considering how it messed with the Open World vs Dungeon structure you can also say the last true Zelda was Twilight Princess.

>>713470765
They only care for BotW/TotK because marketing successfully made them look like "Skyrim" and "Genshin Impact" sort of games. They're Zelda games for people that don't give a shit about "Zelda".

>>713474650
I've been a zelda fan since the 90s and I love both botw and eow, dilate until death you insufferable kike

"Sano: Hi there, I’m Tomomi Sano, also from SPD. Like Yamamura-san, I worked as the Nintendo liaison for this title. Although for me, I joined during the latter half of development so most of the components were already finished. So my role was to review the existing issues with the game that were found by Mario Club14, and if there were moments where it seemed like the game was putting on too much of a challenge like what they were saying just a while ago, I went over those areas from a player’s perspective and made recommendations on whether we should fix certain issues or leave them as is since they add as a part of the challenging flavor to the game.

Aonuma: You say “from a player’s perspective” Sano-san, but that’s exactly the case since you actually played the Nintendo 64 version yourself when it was out, as one of our customers. So whenever I wondered what it would feel like from a fan, I always asked Sano-san.

Sano: I was originally a fan of the Nintendo 64 version so I played it when it was out, but…I was one of those that lost the challenge! (laughs)

Iwata: You couldn’t clear the game?

Sano: Unfortunately, no.”

tl;dr, Echoes of Wisdom was made as baby/journalist mode as possible so even a woman could beat it.

>>713474742
>dilate until death you insufferable kike
says the one foaming at the mouth over the game that made link into a sissy faggot :/

>>713474547
Classic Zelda doesn't mean OoT clone.

>>713475958
absolutely wild to complain about link of all characters being a faggot
dude is the literal definition of he/him lesbian

>>713476365
OoT defined Zelda though.

>>713477356
For N64babies, sure. Real Zelda fans know that LoZ and LttP were the real defining games.

>>713459468 (OP)
It's an okay game. Could've done without all the menus, not like there's more than a few truly useful echoes that can carry the whole game. I'd like an even more traditional Zelda for the next 2D iteration. 3D is going to follow the BOTW formula for the foreseeable future anyway; 2D can do its own thing. It's never going to sell 30m regardless.

Summoning Echoes of enemies and having them fight other enemies honestly made me think of stuff like Digimon World's real time combat.

>>713459468 (OP)
Because FUCK GREZZO. Can't program for shit, uses fucking Depth of Field and the game runs like fucking ass. Puzzles are even more baby tier then usual for Zelda, especially top down. Remember fucking Oracle of Ages and how crazy confusing some of those dungeons were? Better make the solution to every puzzle beds or water blocks. I'm sorry man, game is a snooze, music sucks, game runs like shit and they can't even make an interesting story (oh, the void, the universe was made to contain this thing). Not even fucking original, stolen straight from Phantasy Star (good series btw). Can we have a company that actually tries and isn't given a free pass from the IP used?

>>713459468 (OP)
Absolute best part of the game were the dojo challenges with a limited set of echoes.

>>713459468 (OP)
It’s a lot better playing on switch 2

>>713459468 (OP)
Would have been a god tier game if they actually made you think or come back to an area later on, instead of the solution to every puzzle being conveniently located in the adjoining room.

>>713463069


that's crazy

>>713463386

>playing the emulated version

that's why you didn't like it

>>713459468 (OP)
It was a fun little side game and I enjoyed it more than Botw/Totlk

>>713463069
Lock and key puzzles are inherently worse than mechanics based puzzles. Lock and key puzzles in old 3D Zelda games are some of the worst puzzles in all of gaming.

>>713468027


I was hoping we would get a game were we play as gannon at some point but I think it's because they went from making him semi sympathetic to just a straight evil dude

>>713480998
>making him semi sympathetic
WWfags are illiterate and subhuman.

>>713470406

Most men are simps

>>713478087
Absolutely. If only there were more parts like those in the actual game.

>>713459468 (OP)
Its made for women. My wife loved it and some cat walking through japan game

>>713459468 (OP)
Did enjoy it, but I stopped towards the end game portion like I always do.

>>713459468 (OP)
>Now that the dust has settled, why was this game so hated?

Well...

>They decided to try something new since everyone got mad at them for making BotW 2

This really

>>713473149


Most people play, beat it, and move on. It was fun, don't think I'll play it again anytime soon but it was a good game

>>713463069
No it isn't. That kind of lock is really useful for tagout purposes.

>>713474650


You do realize Genshin Impact stole everything from BotW right?

>>713463069
Shitty analogy made by a dumb person. Deus Ex has the best locks in games. Do you know why? Because you can open them normally with a key or a code, hack them or lock pick them, or blow them up.

>>713482832
And Nintendo reacted to it by taking it in the ass by copying it back.

>>713459468 (OP)
my favorite modern zelda, good puzzles, ok fightan, nice map, good dungeons. Botw and TotK are soigargabe for retards

>>713477862


Even Oracle of Seasons had some tough puzzles

It was good, actually. Loved the robot moblin toy samurai summon. He helped me beat the final boss by 1 shotting all the tentacles with his sword attack, right when he was smoking and on the brink of destruction.

>>713471089
>feel free to list their other similarities.
Well
>frequent occasions where you need outside items found in overworld to progress into a dungeon
>frequent occasions where items found in dungeon are used either in said dungeon or needed for later use areas
And thats just being generalized. If we go into specifics, a lot of those have direct comparisons like needing a magical flute to teleport you, or needing an AOE magic spell to open a dungeon.

The entire time I was just thinking how much better it would have been if I was just Lunk swinging my sword or even Zelda with a sword.

Cat suit was the best.

I am one of the few who likes the graphics/style.

>>713459468 (OP)
The game had a serious problem with bloated inventory selection and no way to manage it until very recently. They give you the basic bed very early and it solves a lot more problems than it should.

>>713483657
>frequent occasions where you need outside items found in overworld to progress into a dungeon
Nice attempt at a qualifier, but in LttP you find random items all over the place and almost never really have a "dungeon gating item" like in OoT.
>>frequent occasions where items found in dungeon are used either in said dungeon or needed for later use areas
Wrong. This is what people who grew up on OoT and maybe watched a playthrough of LttP or something think, but that's not how LttP is structured at all.
>If we go into specifics, a lot of those have direct comparisons like needing a magical flute to teleport you
When do you need a magical flute to teleport you in LttP?
>or needing an AOE magic spell to open a dungeon.
You don't actually need the AoE spell. You're also grasping at straws with one off mechanics that are in plenty of games and not specific to a formula at all.

where were you when zelda was kill

>>713484184
> almost never really have a "dungeon gating item" like in OoT.
The flippers, Bible, Medallions, Pegasus Boots, Flute and Mirror all gate dungeons off. That isn't even mentioning areas being gated off in the overworld without dungeons items like the Mitts, the Moon Pearl, Hookshot, and Hammer
>When do you need a magical flute to teleport you in LttP?
You need it to get into Misery Mire
>You don't actually need the AoE spell
Explain how to get into Misery Mire's dungeon or Turtle Rock without the Medallions and without glitches

>>713484627
>Bible
The Book of Mudora...please.

>>713484627
>The flippers, Bible, Medallions, Pegasus Boots, Flute and Mirror all gate dungeons off.
Those aren't dungeon items like OoT has. Those are just items you get that let you get access to dungeons, like LoZ has. There is a very clear difference in the way they work.
>You need it to get into Misery Mire
You're talking about jumping between worlds, not teleporting around the world. That's another area LttP and OoT are completely different in.
>Explain how to get into Misery Mire's dungeon or Turtle Rock without the Medallions and without glitches
I was talking about OoT actually, but all of the methods I know require glitches so it's fair not to count them.

Again, you keep listing one off mechanics that aren't remotely specific to either game and trying to call it a formula. You're doing your best to avoid talking about the core mechanics and actual formulaic gameplay in OoT because you know it's completely different. OoT is built around finding a dungeon item to get into a dungeon or finding it near the start, and then using it to solve the puzzles and beat the boss. LttP is far more open and mix and match with items and dungeons, and a far bigger emphasis is placed on navigating the world and actually finding dungeon entrances (as opposed to knowing where they are and then just needing to run an errand to get in like in OoT). Saying they're the same because you use a spell to open is stupid because that's a one off mechanic that applies to a ridiculous number of games. If you're going to stretch formula to mean anything that borrows a couple of mechanics, you could lump LoZ, AoL, ABLW, BotW, EoW and just about any other fantasy action adventure game together.

>>713485357
>Those aren't dungeon items like OoT has. Those are just items you get that let you get access to dungeons, like LoZ has
Except OoT ALSO has equivalent-usage items in the overworld. Like the Tunics, Hookshot, Din's Fire, and Ocarina Songs (Saria's Song/Song of Storms/Epona's/ Song for earlier access into Gerudo's Fortress)

You are also ignoring that dungeon items in AlttP still gate things off in the overworld and some other dungeons, just like OoT.

>You're talking about jumping between worlds, not teleporting around the world. That's another area LttP and OoT are completely different in.
Misery Mire is isolated from the entire Dark World map by walls you can't get by. The only way in is a warp point inside the desert on an inaccessible cliff that you need the Flute to get on top of.

>>713485357
>>713485857
Also
>actually finding dungeon entrances (as opposed to knowing where they are and then just needing to run an errand to get in like in OoT
AlttP has all of its dungeon locations marked on the map

>>713485857
>The only way in is a warp point inside the desert on an inaccessible cliff that you need the Flute to get on top of.
You don't need the flute to get to the warp point though...Did you follow a guide that told you to do that because it's quicker?

>>713485857
>Except OoT ALSO has equivalent-usage items in the overworld.
Getting items to get places in a game isn't formulaic or endemic to LoZ, LttP, OoT or anything else. Bringing up something so general doesn't mean anything. You're just trying to sidestep around OoT's very apparent dungeon item structure. OoT started the dungeon item trend and all of the 3D Zelda games up through SS copied it.

>You are also ignoring that dungeon items in AlttP still gate things off in the overworld and some other dungeons, just like OoT.
>just like OoT
LttP has 1 dungeon where you find an item in a dungeon and need it to clear the dungeon and the boss. 1. OoT builds the entire game around that concept. That's the OoT formula.

>Misery Mire is isolated from the entire Dark World map by walls you can't get by. The only way in is a warp point inside the desert on an inaccessible cliff that you need the Flute to get on top of.
You don't warp to the dungeon. You warp to the part of the world it's in and then still need to get to the dungeon. Again, something OoT pretty much did away with.

>AlttP has all of its dungeon locations marked on the map
And yet figuring out the way in is still actually part of the game, because unlike OoT, overworld exploration is still a huge part of the game. There's a reason that in LttP you have points all over the map where you can warp into the dark world and can warp back to the light world anywhere and in OoT those kinds of mechanics don't exist. It's because they only share surface level mechanics. LttP's world warping is like ALBW or even TotK with finding points you can dive underground. OoT is built around going back to the same spot and then watching a cutscene to switch worlds instead of actually building it into the gameplay.

>>713459468 (OP)
Was it hated?
It honestly feels more forgotten that anything
It came out, it had some attention online and then nothing,

>>713483657
>>713484627
>OoT is the LttP formula because there are items and you use them to reach things
Okay so all Zelda games are just using the Tower of Druaga formula.

>>713486512
>Getting items to get places in a game isn't formulaic or endemic to LttP, OoT or anything else
Yes it is. The loop between exploring the overworld exploration and dungeon exploration is EXACTLY about finding items to continue on your quest.
>You don't warp to the dungeon
Don't engage in disingenuous pedantry. You are gatekept from a location without the usage of a magical instrument, which happens in both games.

I won't disagree that OoT streamlines a lot of what AlttP did, but it's still doing what AlttP set forth.

>>713486870
>OoT is the LttP formula because there are items and you use them to reach things
>Okay so all Zelda games are just using the Tower of Druaga formula.
If Tower of Druaga separates between Overworld and Dungeon exploration with items that progress in each then yes I'd say they probably do.

>>713487186
>Yes it is. The loop between exploring the overworld exploration and dungeon exploration is EXACTLY about finding items to continue on your quest.
Again, that's not specific or formulaic to any Zelda game. You're describing general video game mechanics or one offs while ignore the very formulaic stuff OoT does that later 3D Zeldas copied.
>Don't engage in disingenuous pedantry.
I'm not. You're just ignoring how the actual gameplay works. LttP is still about exploring the overworld, like LoZ. OoT isn't. The overworld is just a formality and all the focus is on the dungeons.
>but it's still doing what AlttP set forth.
It's really not. It took what LoZ and LttP did and turned it into something formulaic in a very boring way.

>>713487343
> LttP is still about exploring the overworld, like LoZ. OoT isn't. The overworld is just a formality and all the focus is on the dungeons.
And this is the actual cruz of the issue. OoT IS also about exploring the overworld, you just don't agree because it isn't as open or intricate. It's an issue of degree, not of general design.

>>713487186
>If Tower of Druaga separates between Overworld and Dungeon exploration with items that progress in each then yes I'd say they probably do.
Oh okay, you're referring to the Xanadu formula. If you're generalizing this much then there is no Zelda formula and all Zelda games are just copying the Xanadu formula.

>>713487790
>OoT IS also about exploring the overworld,
No it's not. The single largest area of the overworld has nothing in it and is just there to connect things. As I've already said, warping between worlds in both games is completely different because one is focused on overworld exploration and one isn't. OoT doesn't give a shit about its overworld. The focus is on dungeons, and all dungeons are formulaic and built around a dungeon item that you use to solve puzzles and then stun the boss to hit them. That's the OoT formula, and it's a very specific formula that other Zelda games after it copied. Every other similarity you're trying to draw between them isn't specific to Zelda games at all and are just one off mechanics that apply to almost any action adventure game.
>It's an issue of degree, not of general design.
Wrong.

>>713487797
I will repeat what I said. If Xanadu separates between Overworld and Dungeon exploration with items that progress in each then yes I'd say they probably do.

>>713487965
Then that makes your entire argument pointless because the generalized things you're trying to attribute as being "The LttP formula that OoT copied" are really just general genre things that have existed since before LoZ as a series. Why not focus on the stuff specific to LttP and specific to OoT? Is it because then you know you can't pretend they're the same?

>>713483932
>muh bed
is there a bigger sign of someone who didn't actually play the game?

>>713459468 (OP)
It was worth it for best Zelda

>>713488569
>best Zelda
...is still Tetra.

>>713459468 (OP)
I loved this game I was the fag who kept saying it was arguably the best. Any Nintendo exclusive especially from the big IPs are gonna get shit posted to death and impossible to discuss

>>713488042
>"The LttP formula that OoT copied" are really just general genre things that have existed since before LoZ as a series. Why not focus on the stuff specific to LttP and specific to OoT?
It's already been put forth that the pacing of number of dungeons doesn't count as being a part of the design of the game and the nitty details of how they share the same gameplay style in terms of real-time combat/health and upgrades/item usage is self-evident since every single Zelda game uses it so thats a moot point. The only thing to hone in on is the separation of overworld and dungeon exploration, with dungeon exploration always acting as a climatic end point with an important item inside/boss at the end and the means at which items within the two states gatekeep progress.

>>713488980
>that the pacing of number of dungeons doesn't count as being a part of the design of the game
The number of dungeons does not make something a formula, no.
>The only thing to hone in on is the separation of overworld and dungeon exploration
And the overworld and dungeon exploration between the 2 is structured completely differently. Even talking about the items and bosses you bring up, dungeon items in OoT "solve" the dungeons including the bosses. LttP doesn't work like that. That's to say nothing of your outlandish claim that OoT emphasizes overworld exploration at all like LttP does.

>>713459468 (OP)
I didn't dislike it but I thought it was just alright. It had way too many cutscenes/talking for my liking and all the chests just being fruit was lame and made me not even want to look for them. This is a nitpick but I really don't like how they just use the BOTW/TOTK UI design. Anyway, I didn't dislike my time with it but it's probably pretty down there in my list of 2D Zeldas. I just hope they don't relegate 2D Zelda games to this gameplay style with Zelda and we get a classic Link game next.

>>713470406
No.

>>713483819
>The entire time I was just thinking how much better it would have been if I was just Lunk swinging my sword or even Zelda with a sword.
It requires a change of mindset, you have to enjoy the idea of solving challenges and encounters indirecly instead of being the action hero, it's pretty daring to build a game around this concept that is not going to fit the natural inclination most players will have, but it fits the theme of playing as Zelda, if she were just another sword wiedling hero this game would've been meaningless.

>>713470975
>I hate how nintendo outsource their games to third parties
The Oracle games were outsourced to Capcom and they're the best 2D Zeldas

>>713489191
>The number of dungeons does not make something a formula, no.
The pacing of how dungeons are set forth can and I believe do make a formula.
>And the overworld and dungeon exploration between the 2 is structured completely differently.
They aren't. Again its a matter of degree, the only difference between the two is OoT being areas being more streamlined. That might make all the difference to you for considering a "formula" but it doesn't for me.
> Even talking about the items and bosses you bring up, dungeon items in OoT "solve" the dungeons including the bosses. LttP doesn't work like that.
LttP doesn't OFTEN work like that.

It was just kind of bland and boring. I know it was aimed at a younger audience than most Zelda games, but most of the puzzles were so simplistic and easy to cheese that there was basically zero challenge. Once you get the water block echo, the whole game breaks.

>>713489542
>The pacing of how dungeons are set forth can and I believe do make a formula.
What does pacing mean? It sounds like you're just trying to add a qualifying word to dress up the concept of number of dungeons, which is stupid.
>They aren't. Again its a matter of degree
You're just plain wrong. There's no 2 ways about it.
>LttP doesn't OFTEN work like that.
LttP is only really close to that once. One time in the entire game. That makes it a novelty, not formulaic. OoT is built around that structure. That's what a formula is.

>>713489362
The echo mechanic was made before Zelda was decided as the lead. The devs couldn't find a way to make echoes appealing when the sword was faster and easier to use. Aonuma's response to this was to have Link removed as the player character and give the game/entire echo concept to Zelda just to take the sword away from players.
https://www.nintendo.com/us/whatsnew/ask-the-developer-vol-13-the-legend-of-zelda-echoes-of-wisdom-part-3/

>>713490738
Some of the echoes attack fast enough that you can spawn them repeatedly to simulate attacking with the sword anyway.

>>713488784
I'm with you in that it's probably my favorite 2D(-ish) Zelda game. I loved the style and loved the gameplay. It felt the most creative Zelda has been in a long while. Especially considering how long it takes between Zelda games now. It was nice to see Nintendo do something different again. I miss how rapid and experimental the 2D Zelda games were compared to the 3D ones. Games have become so inflated that it takes forever for a new one to come out, so it was nice to see them scale back a bit and do something fresh.

>>713459468 (OP)
Objective-oriented design has been a major facet of Zelda since its founding, trying to reverse the formula and have the game's objectives serve its collection mechanics was clever, but not exactly well advertised. Changes like these need a masterpiece presentation to work, and Echoes' rip of Awakening DX didn't have that.

>>713459468 (OP)
I think the only thing real bad about it is no favorites for the things you summon but they now finally added lol.

>>713493654
The UI was by far the worst part of the game, and I hate Nintendo's obsession with BotW's UI and putting it everywhere.

>>713493654

Yeah they could have at least had a hot button for your favorite 2-3 summons but maybe they wanted you to have the whole roladex.