Thread 713560035

Rogues bring no utility to an adventuring party not covered by other classes. Prove me wrong.

>>713560035 (OP)
Lockpicking and trap finding/disarming is important.

>>713560148
>lockpicking
grug smash
>disarming
grug strong

>>713560035 (OP)
play the game

Only true in low magic settings.

>>713560290
>grug strong
Not after Grug eats every permanent affliction imaginable and his strength becomes a tenth of what it is until cured. Repeat until gold runs out.
And that's the best possible scenario.

>>713560148
I cast Find Trap and then either avoid them or send the meat shields into them.

>>713561040
Only true in above low magic settings, I meant to type.

>>713560035 (OP)
I could find an use for THAT rogue

>>713560148
>Mage casts open lock
>Mage casts detect traps

>>713560148
It should be, but it rarely is. Either it is determined solely by stats you can raise to avoid the class altogether, or you can use magic to avoid it altogether. I can't think of any RPG that doesn't suck at class balance though.

>>713560906
I don't have friends

>>713560035 (OP)
Game?

>>713561268
This is only true because many players abuse guides today and abused reloading back in the day. If you play it as if you had permadeath the "always on, always free" features of various classes suddenly become very appealing.

Thief girls are always best girl in whatever game they're in

>>713560035 (OP)
you just wanted to post this stupid ass picture, dumb ass

>>713560035 (OP)
Pre-emptive strikes / preventing ambushes
Thief skills like stealing, locking picking etc.

>Caster uses...
What if there's more than 2 traps or chests in a dungeon, gonna wait while the caster regains those spells?

>>713561831
>Pre-emptive strikes / preventing ambushes
Any class can strike pre-emptively and how does a Rogue prevent an ambush any better than any other class?
>stealing
kill them for it pussy
>lock picking
bash or knock

>>713560035 (OP)
Rogues can blind/poison/stun. They can detect traps and hidden doors. They can pickpocket and pick locks. They are great at sneaking around and avoiding detection and do massive damage with backstabs. In a pinch a rogues can even tank, due to their high agility. They also make decent sharp shooters.

>>713560035 (OP)
that's what makes them roguish
they're chancers, blaggers
they're the used car salesmen of the generic fantasy archetypes
they may not even necessarily have skills in anything but they can definitely show up, spend your money, drink and fuck and act like he did

that's the point

>>713560035 (OP)
It always depends on the setting and how the mechanics work in said setting. In Wizardry and other DRPGs they're pretty important becuase they're about resource managment and getting hit by traps drains tons of resources.

>>713560906
I have original's of all these books. The paper is starting to turn yellow.

my group of pathfinder/5e players would never ever let me run a game

>>713560148
I genuinely can't think of a game where traps are actually deadly and you need a specific class to actually see them too.

RPG games always seem to either:
1. Have stupidly bullshit punishing traps but either you can't detect them so you just have to deal with it, or you can detect them/figure out where they are without the need for a specific class
2. The traps need some sort of check to detect them, but either anyone can easily meet this check or the traps are so pathetically weak/easy to avoid that you don't need to worry about them

In either case picking a rogue just because of traps never seems good in any game I've ever played. Lockpicking also has the same problem and usually any value it has is just people thinking a locked chest could actually have something super rare in it but really it's like 3 gold and another lock pick

>>713562281
bg1/2

>>713562281
>RPG games

i feel like it should be a common trait for rogues to have history with other rogues (no honor among thieves, but favors are favors)

>be full plate warrior, max possible damage reduction against physical attacks
>detect rogue and force engagement
>block their opener and half their attacks
>still lose dps race
broken ass design

I'm surprised no one's made an RPG that plays up the whole 'class identity' memes into reality like the OP picture.

>Gotta make a party and reach the deepest floor of the dungeon
>rogue who is a dickhead, randomly disappears and steals loot/chests before you can get to them
>warrior who is an unga bunga retard and pulls half the floor every battle
>mage who is an autist who insists on stopping every 5 minutes so they can ponder their orb and refresh spells
>cleric who has to constantly be tard wrangled away from booze, women and gambling or he loses his divine powers
>ranger who is lazy and is sitting at the back of the party barely doing anything and gets bitchy when you tell her to pull her weight, ends up shooting own party members accidentally
>druid who simply refuses to wear clothes, creeps everyone out and gets arrested everytime they go back to town
>warlock who is extremely powerful and efficient but WILL inevitably betray you at the most inconvenient time

A game with dark comedy/tone with stuff like this would be a lot of fun.

>>713562772
You've clearly never played DnD.

>>713562235
I found a copy of that player's handbook at a library sale for $2 recently. I don't play, but it was too cool to pass up. It was clearly through quite a few games over the years.

>>713562281
Play the original Tomb of Horrors. Blind.

>>713562743
Your fault for picking the class who's only advantage is bigger HP and a better normal attack.

>>713562841
I have and nobody actually plays fun D&D characters. Everyone's a minmax autist who only cares about efficiency, which always bewildered me, imagine thinking the point of a game where everything is imaginary and the DM has full control is meant to be 'beat'.

>>713560035 (OP)
They're easy.

>>713563043
You've only played with one group of autists who don't know how to roleplay and probably don't even like each others company. Play with people who aren't social reject faggots. Also pretty much every DnD video game has the sort of writing dynamic you were describing, so you could just play one of those if you don't like people.

>>713563024
Older systems run fighters on a faster leveling track, ensuring they outlevel anyone of equal experience.
Newer systems run fighters on advanced defense, mobility, and attack growth, the latter often breaking into crit superiority or the newer trend of flexible ability/feat slots with fighters "preparing" their abilities.
At both ends, your statement is false.

>>713563043
Except everyone nowadays tries to turn their tabletop games into le epic meme wacky bullshit exactly like you described.

>>713563232
Kill yourself you critical role secondary nigger.

>>713560290
Your DM is a faggot if he let's you get away with that every time.

>>713562772
Hace you read The Devil's by Joe Abercrombie?

>>713563395
Ok, fine. Positive TRPG experiences don't exist and you shouldn't even try playing because everyone except for you will be playing wrong. Is that what you want me to say?

>>713563563
No I want you to say that you're going to stop being a fucking comedian because you were introduced to D&D through Matt Mercer and you want to be the funniest guy in the room like you think our game is a fucking podcast.

why are male Rogues just dickass thieves and burglars, while female Rogues are more like adventurers and misunderstood thieves?

>>713560035 (OP)
I hate rogues as much as anybody else but rogues are supposed to be more methodic than what your average gaymer wants. I guess they work well in real D&D but mainstream games go too fast for a "real" rogue's approach,

>>713560035 (OP)
those tits are not level 1

>>713563232
>every DnD video game has that sort of writing dynamic you're describing
One, no they don't.
And two, even if they did, I'm not talking about writing, I'm talking about literal mechanics.
I don't want the party member rogue to talk about how they're a dickhead, I want them to ACTUALLY do dickhead things. I want them to be whoring deep into the night and have to be forced out of the brothel in the morning by the rest of the party and go into the dungeon with a massive hangover that debuffs them hugely for a few hours.

RPGs never show, they always tell. Name one that does anything even remotely similar to what I described.

>>713563647
My male rogue is a con artist pretending to be a knight so he can get access to rare artifacts to sell in order to fund the restoration of his homeland's army.

>>713560906
they could have avoided the "satanic" headlines if they stopped being so edgy and put the angels on the cover instead of demons every time
variety people its important

>>713563395
>nowadays
Maybe so, I haven't played D&D in at least 5 years but I'm pretty sure Critical Role was already a thing back then so I doubt it's all that different now.

>>713563647
Because you forgive women.

>>713563627
I have no idea what you're even talking about. I played DnD with my friends. I don't think it's at all a stretch to assume that if you think the people you're playing with are ruining the game for you then maybe those people aren't your friends.

>>713562281
>I genuinely can't think of a game where traps are actually deadly and you need a specific class to actually see them too.
Because nobody wants an instant gameover because they stepped on a wrong tile

>>713562040
By scouting ahead without being detected.

>>713564056
Traps in D&D games are almost never instakills.
Traps in videogames are just too light/injuries too easy to heal.
>nobody wants an instant gameover
Souls games have traps like that, SPECIFICIALLY designed to kill you in stupid ways and people love those shitty games.

>>713561081
For every room? How many spell slots do you expect to burn before you get to the end of the dungeon?

>>713560035 (OP)
Other classes bring no utility to my solo adventure not covered by me being a battlemage. Prove me wrong.

>>713563471
you mean The Avengers But Universal Monsters What Do Grisly Murders by Joe Abercrombie

>>713562772
>image
Stark befriended everybody wherever he went, he's not that awkward

>>713564201
Same. If I can't be the best at everything like an elder scrolls character it's bad game design. Shrimple.

>>713561081
>give up actual magic utility to do something a trained guy can do by mundane means
>have nothing left in the tank when it comes to the stuff you're meant to do as a wizard so you are just a geriatric man holding the party back

>>713564346
Fern is an unreliable narrator in this case.
The only socially awkward person in their party is Frieren.
Stark is just mildly shy/lacking confidence and Sein just likes milfs and gambling.

>>713563932
It's a nu/tg/ kneejerk reaction to something they see in every shadow now. One of at least several such reactions. I doubt it has many good posters left.

>>713561081
>instantly dies to a single goblin arrow crit

>>713564860
I haven't used /tg/ in over a decade because it's another /lgbt/ hive like /co/.

>>713561695
use saucenao on that pic to find out

>>713564939
>because it's another /lgbt/ hive like /co/
I don't remember it being this bad in 2015 but that was a long time ago and my memory isn't quite as good now.

>>713564178
>>713564490
>he doesn't know about craft wand
>>713564934
Goblin deez nuts

>>713560035 (OP)
She's made for my cock and maybe some support carrying my stuff while I do the real job

>>713560035 (OP)
Don't slander my wife Cherry like this.

whats more important to have, a good rogue or cleric?

>>713564484
I'm not the best at everyhing. I'm viable at everything and better than everyone else by virtue of my superior resourcefulness.

>>713566007
rogue for sure, cleric is just a discount fighter/wizard

>>713562281
because game designers want everyone to have fun so they account for people not bringing a rogue

>>713564178
i was never exposed to DnD stuff until BG3 and i have to say the spell slot thing is so fucking gay and retarded
>dude your guy can only cast like 3 spells before he needs to sleep
fucking retarded. glad i never got into tabletop

>>713562772
That doesn't sound fun to play at all. Do you even play games, or do you only watch Youtubers playing them?

>>713566007
>Cleric
Whole team is stronger (Bless).
Nobody can die if you have spell slots.
>Rogue
It can pick locks i.e. replaced by any Dex character.

>>713566272
yet the refuse to account for those who dont bring party members along
satan forbid I want to skip the inane gay banter

>>713566491
they can make convenient spells a really high level wizard thing
they can even make high level spells working on hihg level objects an even higher level wizard thing
but no, past level 12 has to be god shenanigan bullshit domain so they forced themselves to give low level wizards abilities that made every other class redundant and then neutered the wizards by not letting them use their abilities unlike the other classes and never went back to fix it. the fans actually think it makes them hardcore

>>713560035 (OP)
Anal

>>713564934
>crits in 1E

>>713560035 (OP)
SEX

>>713566491
pure casters are living gods by the time you are level 5 plus, being mildly inconvenienced by spell slots at low level is literally nothing

>>713562281
Jagged Alliance 3. Woe betide you if you forego having a mech/explosives merc with you.

>>713567170
How is JA3? Been on the fence about it, loved JA2 1.13

>>713560035 (OP)
It's the other way around, a party of only rogues is all you really need.

>>713560035 (OP)
how many of you actually know what it feels like to cum raw in a pussy like this? the feeling of your dick head being engulfed in pure heat as you feel your jism fill her? haha kill yourselves

>>713560035 (OP)
So will getting groped level her up?

>>713566491
The lore explanation is actually kind cool, the mage starts the ritual required for the spell and just leaves out the last action to actually release the spell, this is why the spell slots are limited, you only have so much time to prepare these rituals and ability to "hold" them.
From a mechanics point of view, the game has it origins on tabletop wargames, so it provides an excuse to limit the use of spells and force resource management.

>>713566491
Its a piece of piss in BG3 because you can just long rest and replenish everything practically between any two encounters. Not to mention you get elixers to replenish spell slots or items that give you free casts.
In tabletop its really just to give some kind of balance. Wizards get batshit powerful really fast, and the counter to that is spell slots and being squishy as shit.
And depending on your group outside of combat the GM might look the other way and let you use a spell for free.
But its also why they're good in a party, you don't need to be throwing fireballs every turn every encounter because its five goblins which is two turns for the martial to chew up and spit out, while the other characters pretend to be useful until its their time to shine.

>>713561232
Ok, and what other spells did you decide to bring? You're down 2.

female rogues are BUILT for male paladin dick

>>713561040
>D&D

>>713569381
Nothing in OP suggests the thread should be limited to D&D.

Tabletop dnd has this terrible system where max level martials are limited by real life physics and need to dedicate class features or feats to do things like run faster and swing a sword slightly more often than the average unleveled NPC, while first level casters can touch an object and turn it into a light bulb that emits roughly 100W for a full hour, as a cantrip, without any continued concentration by the caster - let alone spells that actually generate mass.

>>713560035 (OP)
>can backstab to hit fighter damage
>can find traps
>can lockpick
>can stealth ahead
>can use wands
?

>>713568482
It feels incredible every time, it doesn't get old, even if the sex is meh the sensation of actually filling another human body with your seed satisfies deep-seated primal urges laying dormant within the deepest reaches of your brain. The funny part is, it happens with both genders- I am a certified bifaggot who exclusively tops, and have fucked both women who can't have babies, and men. It doesn't matter which hole, it doesn't matter what happened before it, every single time I actually cum inside someone, I am met with a unique and immense satisfaction.

Don't get me wrong, it's nothing that's going to change your life- if anything, what it takes to get to that point (meeting people, improving social skills, finding social circles you can actually mingle with, potentially getting an actual girflriend/boyfriend etc etc) is the part that changes your life. But it still does feel really good to nut inside someone. I feel bad for the dickless. Having a cock is awesome

>>713565296
>get to level 5
>spend a week and a bunch of money crafting a stick with limited uses
>still cucked by a thin sheet of lead

all tabletop sucks, the rules are garbage, the only reason to play is to make sexual innuendos to the nerd girls you are playing with. the only reason to play with dudes is to learn how to play so you can flirt with nerd girls. that's it. otherwise you're fucking gay.

>>713562281
Icewind Dale, NWN, and BG all had traps that would giga rape you on occasion.

>>713566502
Sounds plenty fun to me. I play more videogames in a month than you have in your life, trust me.

>>713562743
this doesn't happen in D&D and non-MMOs

>>713562281
>>713562501
BG1 traps were insanely deadly, and BG2 ones were pretty bad.

But you'd have to be a moron to bring a Rogue in either game. A cleric or wizard can just cast Detect Traps which lasts more than long enough to find any traps you need to find.

>>713560035 (OP)
Only people who play shitty games say that. A balanced game comes with costs for what you choose to do. Go ahead, be a wizard with Open and Disarm.
>have to find the spell tome, or pay to learn the spell, learn all tiers so you can open all tiers of locks and traps, have to have a special school, have to use your limited resources like spell slots and non-regenerated MP to cast it and god help you if you're in a place with more than one trap and one chest
The warrior wants to try?
>Spends time bashing the door so many times it alerts everything in the dungeon, the force required to bash the lock has rattled and broken a lot of the valuables inside, some shit you just can't break and if you can it means you have a weapon so powerful you don't need what's in most locks because you're at endgame

>>713564167
Souls games let you die over and over and respawn 10 meters away from the trap and also the fights aren't very long, so dying means way less time lost then in an RPG.

>>713561793
>looks like a thief
>most busted mage in the game

>>713565241
because it wasn't, wotc and gw made a major woke push during the pandemic and the dregs of humanity that they drew with it are ruining the hobby like the anti-gg types tried to do with video games

>>713560035 (OP)
Thief was added to the original D&D classes because Gygax ran his games as dungeon delving expeditions and you got experience points by finding treasure, so one of his players asked if he could just make a character that avoided combat and went straight for the prize. For that reason, Thief is the class most tailor-made for D&D.

RPGs evolved pretty quickly away from everything removing around treasure but everyone still liked the class (and aping D&D) so it was retrofit into being "the DEX class." Some games turn the original four D&D classes into four party roles (or something like that) in which case the Thief (or Rogue or whatever) is supposed to be the damage dealer, but this almost never pans out correctly.

At the end of the day, Rogues do bring something to the party by being exceptionally mobile and sneaky. To name a class that does a Rogue's job better, you'd either have to (a) name a class which was created as a specialized off-shoot of the Rogue, or (b) name a broken spellcaster who not only does the Rogue's job better, but does everyone's job better.

>Stealing items on enemies, some are rare
>Usually have a cool aesthetic
>are usually good with poisons and status ailments
>Are usually the fastest class and can double attack

They're more useful than a knight in a lot of cases

>>713570551
>stealing items from enemies that you're about to kill anyway
>usually fitted with leather bondage gear
>poisons ignored by most bosses and every undead enemy
>depends on game

>>713570484
>name a broken spellcaster who not only does the Rogue's job better, but does everyone's job better.
This is the crazy thing people never realize. One of the first examples will always be "a mage can do it". But with that logic a mage can make all classes obsolete. But they won't question the shitty game mechanics that allow this. Or that their favorite class is now shadowed by the hypothetical wizard.

>>713563428
rules exist for a reason and grug will die to a touch attack gimmick more than likely

>>713570656
Grugs don't have ref saves that abysmal usually. Wil, on the other hand...

>thread is just people picking a thousand different rules from a thousand different games
>then mashing them together and pretending that's every other game

>>713571065
a lot of people are assuming D&D/BG3 where a bard does cover literally everything a rogue does and then some
the only thing they have over bards is sneak attack, which bards still wouldn't use if they had access to it because there are better things to use an entire action on, and an actual martial damage dealer has multiattack and better weapons

>>713560035 (OP)
>Rogue

>>713560148
>trap finding
Indeed

>>713561081
Cast Find Trap in the tavern to find out which attractive wenches are traps

>>713568294
It's more like vanilla JA2 than 1.13, with some modern X-Com in it. Less of a realism focus, bit more SRPG, though it's easy to mess up, can get really hard, and snowballs when things go wrong, but rarely comes down to RNG bullshit if you think things through.
I think it's excellent, honestly about as good as you could hope for with that sort of thing. The merc personalities are great, there's a FUCKLOAD of optional things to do around the world (or you can just ignore all of them and beeline the objective), there's been a ton of improvements since release. A lot of the mechanics aren't immediately apparent in exactly how they're best used but that's a positive if that appeals to your autism.
I 100% recommend it, I bought it at release and haven't regretted it for a second.

Random tips:
- turn reflections and shadows down to medium. Looks noticeably worse in the main menu, but ingame you quickly won't notice the difference. They're inexplicably enormous performance hogs.
- you can use DLSS swapper
- hire Blood if he's not unavailable at the start. He can solo carry, absolute beast. Mouse is also very effective for the price. Fox has GREAT quotes, she's an innuendo machine
- there are items you can cash in from your inventory immediately - keep 10 tiny diamonds to trade to a guy you can find, don't sell the statues you dig up since you can again give them to someone, other than that you can sell the rest.

But yeah you've gotta try it if you're at all interested

>>713562281
Zoomer

>>713571689
Rogues scale so badly it must be some kind of on purpose joke/trap class, the sneak attack seems amazing at first, but it becomes exponentially less effective with each level, insane game design, D&D is pure garbage and its hold on CRPG is a plague, I wish we could be free from it.

>>713560035 (OP)
Anon, Martials in general have no actual utility or use when Magic-users exist.
>Barbarian uses big axe!
Cool, a cantrip hits just as hard as the axe.
>Bard uses persuasion!
Wow, a shittier Charm Person, moving on.
>Ranger uses tracking! Rogue looks for traps!
Detect X, no further explanation needed.
>The Paladin is there to tank and heal!
Clerics do it far, far better.
The only thing martials are good for is being early-campaign meat shields for the Casters.

>>713560035 (OP)
This is me, but as a wizard boy in my hypothetical fantasy adventure

>>713572314
Shut the fuck up and get back to dying, Kuja.

>>713571689
Even D&D has different rules and mechanics across its editions. BG3 is a bastardized version where you couldn't replicate the same builds or the same utility in D&D. Just picking some examples of things that don't make sense from this thread.
>poisons ignored by most bosses and every undead
Not true. And Forgotten Realms has a poison specifically for the undead.
>>stealing items from enemies that you're about to kill anyway
This is more a Bethesda problem. In DnD and BG3 there's major benefits to weakening an enemy before you fight them by stealing.
>Are usually the fastest class and can double attack
Fast, yes. Double attack? Fighters in modern DnD are famous for multi attack. This seems more of an FF thing.
>mages can do everyone else's job
Definitely not a DnD or BG3 thing due to resource management.
>fighters can just smash shit open
This ignores all the downsides from bashing at locks present in DnD.
Maybe you're right and people "think" they're talking from a DnD/BG3 perspective. That's ignoring all the variations they're combining from the different iterations of DnD. But it still ends up a jumble mess of in-cohesive reasons from different systems.

>>713572359
She got into Sovngarde for that one right there

>>713572241
(You)

>>713560290
>grug smash
gandalf explodo

warriors are redundant

>>713560035 (OP)
Rogues are the only legitimate class that makes any sense. None of the other classes have realistic motivations. Your entire gameplay loop is
>sneak around dungeons
>ambush and kill people
>steal their shit and pawn it
Why the fuck would a knight or a wizard be doing this? The only conclusion is that either the rogue is the party leader and has hired a team to assist them in stealing shit, or ALL the characters are rogues and the party role they play is just a specialization!
>magic rogue
>combat rogue
>healing rogue

>>713572481
>Casts Mage Hand to jerk himself off with it
What now, Barbarian boy?

>>713572091
>the sneak attack seems amazing at first, but it becomes exponentially less effective with each level
I'm pretty sure most players don't get to double-digit levels, so no one cares about how awful the scaling is.

>>713562281
>>713560148
>zoomers are so brain dead they can't think of a situation where having a DEDICATED class to puzzle solving/trap management would be important

jesus christ
I had a Stone Dragon breathe acid onto a character until it was dead specifically because engaging the trap was a literal requirement to continue the quest.
having a rogue would of made it easy, meanwhile mage spells didn't work on it.

>>713572531
a fighter isn't necessarily a knight or even honorable and a wizard profits explicitly by taking the spellbooks from other wizards killed in the dungeon

>>713572241
>this is the end result of the hyper casualization of tabletop
Grim

>>713572531
>Rogues are the only legitimate class that makes any sense. None of the other classes have realistic motivations. Your entire gameplay loop is
>>sneak around dungeons
>>ambush and kill people
>>steal their shit and pawn it

>>713572670
We must return to primeval low fantasy.
>Barbarians and warriors are commonplace, wielding mundane weapons. A magical weapon is a true rarity, and is both awful and awesome to behold in action.
>Archers and Rogues are fragile, but powerful in their own right, dealing lethal blows either from afar or from the shadows. Poisons, toxins, and survival instincts are their tools.
>Wizards and spellcasters are occult beings, their powers bizarre, frightening, and mystical. To cross one is to gamble with ones very fate, as they can range from a dabblign alchemist with deadly reagents to mix, to malign warlocks wielding accursed blood rituals

>>713573074
>Barbarians and warriors are commonplace
They are common place in most of those settings. But most of them are never going to be more than level 1 scrubs.
The hero party are the people who are the cream of the crop (or some assholes who fail upward).

>>713572002
would you suggest using the mod that allows for multiple IMP mercs?

>>713572726
>Napes a whole tinderbox of posers
based

>>713560035 (OP)
I don't NEED a rogue, just like how I don't NEED a fighter. It is just really convenient to have one in my party so that everyone else can focus on other stuff. I would rather not waste a spell slot if I don't have to.

>>713573336
No, IMP mercs are powerful for obvious reasons (given you can tailor their stats exactly and don't have to pay them a salary) but have 0 personality and can be a crutch. Multiple of them would be uber OP. If that's not a problem for you then do whatever, but I would recommend making one with max leadership and wisdom (and whatever other support stats) and the training perk to act as a militia trainer you can leave behind your main force, training militia can be an obnoxious amount of upkeep otherwise.

>>713560290
grug get everybody killed

>>713573336
Oh but one mod you MIGHT like is 'descriptive chance to hit' if you don't like the default undisplayed chance to hit. By default it just won't tell you (which I don't mind, makes the game feel less prescriptive, you just do what seems right), there's a mod to make it the usual percentage which I think is too robotic, descriptive CTH is a nice middle ground if you want it.

>>713572670
>>713573074
HOT TAKE
Magic users shouldn't be player classes.

>>713573420
Funny enough I don't NEED a wizard in my party either, like I don't NEED a cleric, but likewise it'd be rather convenient to have one along. I feel we both stand to gain something here, though if you don't look something like pic related we may have some issues.

>>713563471
I'm about halfway through and just have been enjoying it but it really does feel like it's just action set piece after action set piece. If it wasn't him writing this, with his general tone and character style I'd probably have put it down.
It's odd too because all of his other books are great when nothing much is happening and the battles, while gruesome, or relatively infrequent. They're like Tarantino films where you'll have a long build-up into a moment of explosive but brief violence, then calm again. The Devils feels more like a Michael Bay movie by comparison.

>>713566491
Dungeons make no sense in the context of the world. They only make sense in a gameplay perspective, them being a challenge to drain your resources before you meet the boss of the dungeon.
Sure mages can "skip" every single puzzle or challenge in the dungeon, but this would in balance leave them with no resources to fight the boss.
If you have a well prepared party, you can spend an entire dungeon without spending more than a few spells slots and you can fight the boss with 3/4 of all your slots and absolutely blast the shit out of it in less than 3 rounds.
Other clases have a different approach to the puzzles and challenges, mostly consisting in skills designed to tackle the challenges or the raw power or health to tank them head on in some cases.
In this, the rogue is very special because it's the most skill oriented class in dnd.

>>713572531
>why would a knight or a wizard be doing this
because wizards in DnD are just smart people who know how to use magic that is based on skill, that's it. There is nothing about wizards that prevents them from casting invisibility to sneak around, ambush and kill people and selling their spoils. Paladins and Fighters are the same way except maybe not the sneaking part mechanically speaking.

>>713560290
Grug high chance to alert enemies and/or destroy loot

>>713572531
you've incidentally run into one of the arguments people have for running OSR games without having thieves as an option at all, since everyone should logically be able to use the skills associated with them

This is /v/ not /tg/ and every single post defending rogues only matter in a D&D /tg/ setting.

Rogues in videogames are dodge tanks, stealthy and deal sustained damage with light weapons and fuck around with status effects.
Sustained damage can be filled by most other melee classes, status effects can be done via magic.
Most games Rogues either fall into one of the worst/niche classes, or they have some absolute broken deaggro ability that makes them outright unkillable if played well. But they all seem to be better for solo play than group party efforts.

>>713565738
based AI rpger. what did you use cherry for in your story?

>>713560906
>tfw my group is ghosting me mid campaign

>>713562772
>>713569978
Sounds cringe

What the fuck is wrong with you

>>713574581
NTA, but consensual sex with a high-level human Fighter.

>>713574549
ironically baldurs gate kind of goes against this as they are mosty used for scouting ahead, picking locks, disarming traps and backstabbing. Real shame that baldurs gate 3 removed even more utility from them by giving everyone the ability to pick locks, detect and disarm traps.

>>713566491
If you can just infinitely cast anything you want at any time, what's the downside to being a caster? Fucking retard, thank god you don't have any say on any level of game design.

>>713574268
So wizards are the protagonists that kill the bad guy and the rest are his glorified babysitters and cheerleaders?

>>713574779
They are still usually better than others at it thanks to expertise, and they make up for it by still having a lot of combat options with Sneak Attack, bonus action Diengage, Dash, and Hide, and a potential second bonus action per turn depending on subclass.

>>713563790
>if they stopped being so edgy and put the angels on the cover instead of demons
that is not how you move copies in the 70s-80s

>>713574883
>expertise
bard
>sneak attack
any martial does more damage, swords bard
>bonus action disengage/dash/hide
misty step, invisibility potion
>thief bonus action
this is why rogues are a three level dip and not an actual class

>>713563043
this is why multiclassing is a mistake
people who think its good in any way are just retarded. i used to grant that their arguments might apply to them or something, but now that ive had even more life experience i realize they are delusional retards clinging to some fantastical idea of what it 'could' be while forcing all of us to play shitty ruined games.
they are possessed by evil which has made them stupid

>>713560035 (OP)
Rogue sexxxo
>>713562772
Druid sexxxo
unless it's a mystery, no homo

>>713560906
Rogues weren't in the original game. It was literally homebrew by some college kids that Gygax picked up.

Original classes were Fighting Man, Magic User, amd Cleric.

It was implied they were all looters because D&D was a treasure hunting game. The kinda of things a thief would do (doors, traps, etc) were expected of every class. It was baseline.

>>713574836
In some cases, yes
In others? They are the bitch that died to a minion because they have very low health.
Spell casters do get a lot better than other classes as they level up but just in the first 5-10 levels. After that every other class ends up somewhat balanced in damage potential and are way more survivable. Still wizards tend to do more damage because of the aoe spells and other wizardly bullshit.
At the level you get fireball as a caster, enemies are still so weak you can destroy entire groups of enemies with a single cast. At the same time fighters, paladins, rogues and rangers can only kill an enemy at a time.
Still, as i said, they are extremely weak when it comes to health and defenses, plus they tend to spend their resources faster. While a fighter can just jump a big ditch trap and dex classes like rogue or ranger could wall run to cross the ditch, casters will either have to risk a very likely fall or use one of their spell resources.
A peculiar caster class that avoids this is the tool class, the artificer. It's effectively a caster but it's focused on tools. To balance shit, they don't have as many spell resources and are tailored for support, be it for its own or for the entire party.

>>713560035 (OP)
Rogues are meant to be high execution precision instruments. They scout ahead, they find and retrieve hidden things, they inflict crippling debuffs on the enemy, and then they take out a critical opponent in the backline before they even know what's happening. All the while they're sneaky and impossible to pin down. They're not supposed to compliment the frontline brawlers like the warrior and the paladin, if anything they're a foil to the cleric. A rogue is meant to be a support unit, but rather than supporting the team by aiding them, they support the team by prying open every crack in the enemy's armor.

But both designers and players are too stupid to do the archetype justice. Designers don't want to constantly build around the high finesse a rogue craves, and players prefer the path of least of resistance in the form of an immortal meatshield running down a hallway, or an instant death spell fired from a safe distance.

No class is more neglected than the rogue.

>>713575741
Counter argument
Ranger is the most neglected class because it does everything while doing nothing as good as the others

>>713575535
>they are extremely weak when it comes to health and defenses, plus they tend to spend their resources faster
That doesn't matter, because no one is going to kill a player character unless he fucks up badly and the encounters are balanced to the party's resources, the basic premise of the game is flawed, when you pair normal humans with reality bending magical beings, normal humans are going to be weaker and less special.

>>713560035 (OP)
Only in dofus a rouge feels like a rouge and not like a skinny hobo with a knife

>>713574710
i was mentor relationship consensual sex cuckolding other female party members

>>713576024
Other female party members?

name a single game that has level 1 rogues/thieves with thong/lingerie underwear as starting gear

you can't

>>713575741
I see rogue as just being a low cost/online at low levels trap disarmer/lock opener who can also deal damage.
Just like fighter is also low cost/online at lower levels.

Neither of them are the absolute peak, but they can do their jobs sooner than later and don't expend much in limited resources.

>>713563043
thats so sad...

my party was exactly as you described. a bit tone down but fun regardless (except for that one time we all had to fuck a lioness because of someone’s brilliant idea… and another guy got his dick stitched back on after zombification. Normal campaign stuff)

maybe bc they were new to this "type" of game idk

>>713566491
It's literally no different from just a mana system in any normal RPG conseptially.
Like mages just being able to spam an infinite amount of spells non stop is kinda dumb unless you also make every other class borderline gods it only makes sense to put a forum of limitation.

>>713576080
dragon's dogma

a good rogue will be finding secrets, items, and useful intel in games that allow for more kinds of soft power. They can help get your team better/more loot, and they can have means of crowd control by misdirecting and distracting enemies.
Overall I love rogues, thief types especially, but I recognize that in most game types they don't really excel. In games that are just about killing lots of monsters, rogues end up being assassins/ninjas and are usually faster but softer fighters.

>>713576080
Baldur's gate 3

>>713561081
You have 4 max hp and 2 spell slots.

>>713562772
Villains by Necessity is kind of like that
The bad guys have to save the world because the good guys won too hard

>>713575741
I feel like you either have a rogue game or you don't, a rogue game will be based around ambush combat tactics and indirectly approaching objectives, if the party isn't in tune with it, you can't have it at all.

>>713577110
what are the anal beads for?

are all Scouts Rogues but not all Rogues are Scouts?

>>713575741
>No class is more neglected than the rogue.
Monks, and Rangers...

>>713577110
Those are for the sling
A bullet that's been up your ass for 2+ hours has a 25% chance to infect the target with disease

>>713576672
There's an obvious midpoint between "i can cast my four spells like 3 times" and "i can literally spam my spells every single turn"

>>713574268
I mean conceptionally dungeons aren't that weird. They're usually either ruins of a ancient civilization or some bad guys base. It'd basically be like sneaking into a now abandoned mall or raider's base in a post apocalyptic setting.

>>713577206
there's a sling next to it, so those are metal bullets, stronger than rocks you'd find anywhere on the ground

so female Rogues will steal semen, then sell it to a sperm bank? How dishonorable.

i just like class cuz its edgy and i like edginess
also they usually get hood+mask combo

>>713562281
D&D Online? I wouldn't know I didn't stick with it long enough, but thieves can detect/disarm traps and find extra loot

>>713560035 (OP)
rogues are usually top DPS

>>713579879
this is true. but depending on the game they are ether too hard or do lower damage on groups

>>713568903
none, I just filled the slot that would have been the rogue with another wizard.

>>713560035 (OP)
Lockpicking
>but mages
magical lockpicking should exclusively be for allowing higher level mages to pick lower level locks, a level appropriate lock should need physical picking, and maybe a mage enchanting a rogues tools could allow for the rogue to punch above his level a bit

>>713562772
mmorpg trifecta minus the mmo.

>>713566007
>Make a fujo bait porn simulator
>add 'tough' combat
>Now both men and women will defend it
Persona or BG3?

>>713560035 (OP)
She looks like someone stole her clothes. I don't think she's a very good rogue.

>can detect and disarm traps without wasting spell slots
>can hide and backstab enemies for massive damage, at least when you're still low leveled
>can pickpocket massively overpowered gear from NPCs that would otherwise wipe the floor with you like Drizzt
They're really important in BG1/2, people didn't keep Imoen around just because they wanted to fuck their sister.

>>713565241
I mean you can just go check it now. It's gotten slightly more based after the hacker KINGS put the tranny jannies and the modniggers in their place, because the leftoid jannie who ruled /tg/ with an iron fist got spooked from the dox, but the damage has mostly been done.

>>713579879
certainly not in tabletop-derived rpgs

Lore bard is the best 4th slot class in the game nothing even cones close to how broken having a lore bard is in a dnd party they can literally do everything and do it great

>>713561081
Find Trap isn't a wizard spell, is a third level spell, and only detects the presence of traps without revealing their location.

>they don't expel their yang energy as a fireball in between performing such masterful sword strokes that it leaves all jade maidens within a 100 li radius blushing like lotus blossoms
Why be master swordsman OR master wizard when both are needed for proper cultivation silly gwailo

>>713560148
grug fail perception check and trigger entire room of traps

She got a job :D

>>713581687
Shes dropping everything
I don't think she's going to have a job for long

>>713574539
I like the interpretation that the thief skills are supernatural.
Note the names
>hide in shadows
>scale sheer walls
I take it to mean anyone can hide or climb things, but the thief can go full Garett or Spiderman if he rolls well enough.
Same with the other skills, "open lock" isn't lowly picking a lock, it's instantly and silently defeating it, "move silently" is SILENT full speed running while covered in bells and carrying 100 lbs of coins in a sack, "find traps" is more like the dwarf/elf sense for hidden passages where the thief just has a sixth sense about traps, "hear noise" is less "there's a guard talking in the next room" and more "there's five heartbeats around the corner 50 feet away, two of them are slow and steady indicating sleep"

>>713560035 (OP)
>>713574549
rogues in videogames almost always have the best movement. Faster running, dodge roll, higher jumps, climbing, etc...

>>713580274
cool.
so uh, your main wizard is tied up and you need to sneak over past one large group of enemies and open his unguarded cell door, where he is being interrogated by a fairly weak guy who has him at knifepoint.
what other spells do you have, retard?

>>713569807
dont forget the wonderful starter adventure death house

>>713564178
Sleep after every room.
Spend level 9 spells on gobbos.
Limitations are for martials.

>>713574973
bg2 treats thief just as much as a dip.
every thief companion in that game is either dual classed or multi classed into a mage

>>713566007
rogue in a lot of cases.
the rogue can take a feat to make it a discount healer using medpacks or whatever it is, and everyone can carry potions with the extra gold made from stealing.

>>713574836
A wizard is basically a piece of equipment
>need this magical artifact to kill the ancient dragon
>it's incredibly fragile, heavy, and only has a couple uses before it has to recharge for an entire day
>you have to transport this thing through an entire dungeon without breaking it or using up all the charges
You could replace a wizard with a javelin missile, or perhaps a crew served machinegun. Incredibly useful and vital, but there's no way you're going to get much done without a lot of support.

>>713565738
I'm sorry anon. I fed her aphrodisiac and got her to work in my brothel as a way to pay off her debt and gaslit her to give up on her dreams of adventuring.

D&D is a shit system that should've stayed in the only place it's viable - tabletops.
I realize you can't escape RNG in video games, but there's "in 10% of situations RNG can fuck you over" and then there's "in 90% situations RNG can assrape you".
It's not fun. BG3 would've sell twice as much if it had D:OS2 system.

>>713583542
All I remember from Divinity OS 2 was the entire floor being on fire literally all the time within 1 turn of combat starting

>D&D
No, thanks.

>>713583268
incidentally wizards are pretty much all the same few character archetypes and call on pre-made spells in place of actually thinking about how to work around a puzzle or do something so maybe they actually are just farm tools

>>713583542
>It's not fun. BG3 would've sell twice as much if it had D:OS2 system.
fucking what? D:OS2's system was dogshit. And you have to be ~bad~ to be worse than 5E

rogues are cute and funny simple as

>MUH WIZARD CAN DO EVERYTHING AND IS OMNIPOTENT
>after 4 uses of a tier they can no longer use any spells of that tier till they rest 8 hours
A wizard is literally worse than any other class on AVERAGE because they will save the spells. Yes, you can use enchantment now to fix a social problem but what if it backfires?
Also, specifically with D&D, it's really funny how people completely ignore that spells can entirely fail. That's one use for the entire day gone. For example, if you try to turn someone to stone, or if you try to hit somebody, then there are some spells that will do half damage even on a fail. But the problem is, if you, for example, miss a spell, or if you, for example, have an enemy that resists a spell, then that spell is gone, and you won't have the use back. Meaning you did 0 for a limited use action. The point is that you have a dude with a few cantrips with you that can do some large things a FEW times, instead doing something consistently. Non of you retards every played dnd. A session can go hours and you think with like 5 usages of a tired spell you can use it consistently?lol

>>713563627
NtA, but I have been playing TTRPGs since the early 00's, and the problem you describe was already ancient when I started. Mercer barely moved the needle.

>>713569759
The cost of a wand is immensely less than the cost of a rogue.

>>713560148
Modern DMs don't use traps.
>>713561316
You don't need them to play. The solo gaming problem has been solved. Just use AI. Go to /aicg/.
>>713574268
There really are dungeons IRL and they make sense.. My part of the world has Roman ruins, medieval forts, every city has tunnels beneath it and there are communist monuments and underground bunkers scattered innawoods.

>>713577002
Thief is an example why Rogues don't work in a party based game. To function you need them to separate from the group to reduce the odds they get spotted but that just makes it a pain to bring them back to the group every time their job is done.
Rogues in single character games are great, in groups they just become worse fighters who get occasional crits.

>>713580951
Good rogues don't need clothes when they'll never be seen.

>>713566491
That's just a D&Dism, it's not a thing in good systems.

>>713560290
>Giving the DM an excuse to murder the entire party

>>713560035 (OP)
Rogues are always the most SEXO party members, no other class can compete. This goes against their carefree nature because they are stuck with my child in their tummy and lose most of their dexterity

>>713587153
>stole your genes

>>713560035 (OP)
They can provide contacts in the local underworld.

>>713585348
I played a storm sorcerer in my last group. Combat was a constant game of monitoring combat (mainly in how the DM moved enemies) to maximize the use of spells without getting party members caught in the blast, learning to use metamagic to get more out of weaker but more available low-level spells and cantrips, and knowing when it was just best to shoot a motherfucker with a crossbow dart. Sometimes I took risks on positioning that did major damage to multiple targets but paid for it in blood, nearly dying a few times for my troubles. I honestly really enjoyed it

>>713560035 (OP)
It's always good to have a cocksleeve in the party.

>>713560035 (OP)
why can't mmo vidya be this way? you want to lvl up to go adventuring? join a guild and have in-game sex with high leveled veterans. bonus exp if you have erp skill. better get to it if you want to climb the ranks.

>>713590737
They used to be. That's what these scenarios are based on.

>>713585614
Same with a wizard, so grandpa's out of the party too.

>>713591315
example

>>713560035 (OP)
>usually busty sexy clumsy tomboy girls that after some adventures shows you their really cute side only to you

What do you mean no utility? (you) tard?

>>713560290
not every lock is a box, and not every trap is smashable. As an example, a vault door, that requires an experienced lockpicker, or a locked wall-door in an ancient ruin that needs an experience lockpicker, or shit, even just a plain old steel door. as for traps, a full room that fills with gas unless you can disable the pumping mechanism thats behind a wall, and your only access point is a panel. You don't want grub, you want a rogue.

>>713592312
holy fucking cope.

>>713592312
>vault door
smash
>wall-
smash
>steel door
bash
>mechanism thats behind a wall
smash

>>713560035 (OP)
Wow, she is literally me!

>>713572531
>>magic rogue
>>combat rogue
>>healing rogue
CHOOSE YOUR CHARACTER

Burglar
Crook
Footpad
Highwayman
Marauder
Ninja
Outlaw
Pirate
Robber
Thug

>>713574581
Long story about her teaming up with a technically immortal fighter with troll blood who grew up being used as a living meat shield since the age of nine. He was more scar than man at that point but he was kind and helped her become more confident as a rogue, while also traumatizing her as she saw just how much damage he could really take. Ultimately led to him catching feelings for her (in a pretty tense scene where they're trapped in a cave during a blizzard) which mindbreaks him because he was conditioned to think he's not really human. Climax of the story is him solo-ing an orc camp and then canabalizing the warlord. She stops him but the damage is done, and he ends up sacrificing himself shortly after when she steals a dragon egg on a job and the dragon catches her.

In the epilogue she returns to the cave he died in five years later and finds his heart in a pile of rats, with the scraps of his corpse being permanently devoured as he continually tries to regenerate. She spends the next five years working with an alchemist to help him regenerate, and when he finally does his troll blood is completely burnt out and he gets to live as a normal human with cherry. He retires as a fighter after that and decides to settle down as an apothecary.

>>713595635
Oh and the fighter's name is Meat.

>>713586242
Or make a group of rogues and run a heist story.

Playing Pathfinder and rogues are pretty much the most useless class so far.
>Summoners rape
>Arcanists and wizards drop fucking nukes while having a lot of qol spells
>Fighters tank and deal a lot of damage in melee
>Cleric or Oracle heal and provide a lot of support
>Rogue... Hides in stealth, and sometimes opens doors.

>>713595542
So? Tropes exist because they are fun and work, she would be one of the most memorable characters

>>713560290
/thread

>>713561316
You don't need friends to play NWN modules

>>713561121
In above low magic, Grug is just as useless as a Rogue. What can stronk Warrior do what powerful wizard can't?
>lockpicking
Cast "open locks"
>disarming
disintegrate enemies with magic
>afflictions
cure with magic

And here's the thing. If grug is strong enough so just smash his way through anything, he is either a demon, a god or a magically enhanced human. That implies high magic setting. So just replace him with wizard. If no/low magic setting, then he needs a rogue by his side. And if grug is just that strong without any magic, the the setting is stupid and whoever created it lacks the imagination to make warrior types viable without giving them super-powers. At which point, what is the difference between them and magical creatures/wizards? "I trained so hard that I can lift a tank!" no you didn't. It is for that exact reason why animes like MHA and Black Clover are stupid. They have this premise of a Charakter without special abilities in a world where everyone has superpowers, and throw it out of the window the first two episodes. Asta has superhuman strength that rivals magic power just by training really hard.

That is exactly what Mash Burndead makes fun of. The Pseudo-underdog trope.

>>713584406
this isn't cute and funny
THIS is

>>713598193
what makes you think that saying "i cast open lock" or "i cast cure disease" isn't on the same level of cringe as saying "i trained so hard i can lift tanks"? it's the same thing, only one involves waving a staff of some sort and making light come out

>>713560035 (OP)
She looks like she just wants to be gangbang'd by goblins

>>713598737
*by a brave heroic adventurer
goblins get the axe

>>713598737
Judging by her current state it is obvious she had a change of heart after going full yolo solo on the gobbo quest.

>>713560035 (OP)
Fighter is all you need

>>713599043
BALS
TO
THE
WALL

>>713598521
That is exactly my point. It is on the same lavel of cringe, even though a non-magical fighter should aim for non-cringe solutions. Which in this case would be a rogue who is trained in lockpicking. Reminder, the argument was about what rogues are good for. But you only make them useless by giving your Warrior/Babarian feats that should be off limits for them if they are not godlike creatures. And if they are, you don't need anyone else at all, making the entire discussion pointless. Also, when someone brought in wizards the counter point was

>that only applies in high-magic!!!!

implying that you prefer this discussion to be held for a low/non-magic setting, where a super-power-warrior shouldn't be a thing. So no smashing doors open that are secured by steel-locks and beams with just brute force and muscle alone.

>>713599043
Pretty fun manga, imo.

>>713560035 (OP)
She looks like she could provide a lot of utility to the party sexually servicing the group. She looks like prime gangbang meat.

>>713560290
grug turn to paste when he smashes the exploding trap

>>713561081
>I cast Dingledorf's Trap Hogus!
>gay little ball of light shoots out of staff and vibrates or something
>"mmmmhmmm ayup there's definitely a trap in this room"
And there's probably another spell for more precisely locating the trap once you know it's in the room, and another one for disarming it, and oops you're out of spell slots lmao

>>713560035 (OP)
I'd let her join

>>713574520
>alerted enemies
Grug smash
>merchant won't purchase damaged goods
Grug smash

>>713569736
based bifag

>>713600745
>merchant won't purchase damaged goods
>Grug smash
grug yell*

>>713599043
I did an all fighter party with crossbows, literally gunning down everything to death with a hundred attacks per turn.

>>713562772
>frieren at the reddit

>>713572726
>>713599043
I swear "you can be anything yet you choose to be a human fighter"-people are the lowest IQ individuals in the world
Had my friends make fun of me for going HUMAN GREATSWORD PALADIN when they asked me what I played in bg3

>>713560148
meanwhile mages carry the team like a packmule

>enemies
Just sneak past them. Warriors unnecessary
>magic contraptions
Just sneak away. Mages unecessary.
>social situations
Just sneak in and steal all valueables. Social characters unnecessary.

You don't need anything other than a group of rogues.

>>713570295
>Thievery skill so good that she stole the role of a completely different class

I find rogues tend to be too important and it means my choice is
A: Take the rogue (and there is often literally just 1 fucking rogue, who is also often a sarcastic, unlikeable edgelord)
B: Miss out on tons of items and maybe exp if the game gives that for lockpicking

>>713598193
Sort of. Casters can summon grugs instead of having them as proper party members. Those also have the benefit of being disposable.
Mid to high magic settings need actual thought put into them unlike low magic which are "real world at some point in history plus a sprinkle of supernatural".

>>713600745
>>merchant won't purchase damaged goods
>Grug smash
Less dumb Grugs from merchant's tribe come to defend him, Grug dies.

>>713576080
Dungeon stalkers

>>713560035 (OP)
Sneaking and stealing some shit that you could not possibly get otherwise.

>>713560035 (OP)
Does anyone else find prostitution really hot?

>>713561081
>>713581360
>Retard play
Casting detect traps
>Real Wizard Play
Send a summoned creature ahead of the party.

>>713561268
Rogues were amazing in Dungeons and Dragons Online.

>>713583542
It's only 5% chance of critical success or failure. It isn't really that bad.

>>713575870
Magic bowman is kind gay desu.

>>713605850
This, everytime we have this debate over martial vs magic users, people forget how versatile spells can be, just a mage hand can scout, trigger traps, grab stuff from hardadeous areas etc. it's infinitely useful by itself.
If we talk tabletop, then it's even worse because you are only bound by your imagination and the DM's goodwill.

>>713560035 (OP)
I find amazing the lack of games copying Dragon Quest III's thief.
The class found more items in combat, and had spells that highlighted treasures and hidden treasures, told you the closest village, told you how many treasure you had left in the level, and in what level on the dungeon you were.

>>713607716
Problem with this kind of unique on-off utility is that it's impossible to balance. Either the utility is too good and critical, and there is no game choices: you must include . Or it's neat yet irrelevant and you can never include .

When you balance things around something like dps instead, you can have interesting alternative party builds. You make game decisions, which is the fun in games.

>>713560035 (OP)
What utility do the other classes bring then that's not covered by rogues?
All rogue party here we go taffers

>>713605957
They were basically required for every bit of content past 4th level. Hell entire instances just wouldn't be doable without enough trap disarming.

>>713564346
That was actually what ended up making Stark into my favorite character. That moment when they finally leave the exam town and suddenly there's a whole ass montage of every citizien saying goodbye to Stark like he's a dear friend was awesome. Made you realize the entire time Frieren and Fern were dealing with the exam, he had been running sidequests and winning everyone over by just being nice and earnest. I love his spin on the tough party warrior trope actually both abhorring getting put in danger and also being extremely personable.

Why do you need a rogue for stealth when a mage has invisibility?
I summon a demon, force it to open all the doors and activate all the traps, if shit hits the fan I just disappear.

>>713610254
Rogues barely even deal damage compared to fighters and mages.
Everything they can do a mage can do better.

>>713610695
By MP mattering, but that's super rare since the 16 bits.
I can only think of Dragon's Crown having a limit that matters on prepared spells after MP healing items started to appear in shops.

>Enter dungeon
>Cast detect traps
>Cast disarm traps
>Cast detect traps
>Cast disarm traps
>Cast detect traps
>Cast disarm traps
>Encounter monster
>No more spells

>>713611615
If we're not in immediate danger I can just use rest afterwards.

>>713560035 (OP)
>Rogues bring no utility to an adventuring party not covered by other classes
That's 100% a matter of individual game balance.
What you should actually argue us that rogues are almost invariably hm slaves, and that's shit design.

>>713560035 (OP)
Videogame???

>>713611741
Camping is why wizards can do everything.
Make spells only recoverable in towns or put some time limit so sleeping too much brings failure. Otherwise magic is everything.
In old JRPGs you returned town because the casters were dry more than because HP was low. First they started to allow 99 potions then 99 magic potions. Then balance went through the window too.

>>713563043
People gave you shit for saying this but this is a thing that happens often, and many GMs encourage it.
Don't cover every role and make a party that has a weakness? Time for a unbalanced encounter that requires [wizard spells/cleric spells/a tank/rogue skills] to beat, then act like it's your fault for getting raped by it even though the encounter was blatantly created to "punish" you.
Give your character a backstory and people he cares about? Time to kidnap and kill them offscreen, then next game complain that everyone always makes the same orphan characters with no backstory.
Someone makes a suboptimal build choice for flavour or fun? Time for being made fun of by npcs about how weak or weird you are, and to play up every flavour-related complication and limitation you have! (What about the multiclass optimized abomination with feats tied to the lore of 5 different enemy factions? He clearly doesn't care about the lore so we'll just handwave that he learned everything on his own and has no flavour-related conflicts)

>>713561081
It's mages that are useless in vidya
>Random encounter pops up
>Mage has to use up 8% of his max mp just to compete with the fighter's dps, 15-20% to surpass it
>MP refilling consumables are too expensive to waste against random encounters
>Random encounter happen every 5 seconds
>Mage has to resort to beating up mobs with his staff for chip damage

>>713583542
An attack at cap with advantage is a 1/400 chance of failure. Many classes will easily let you brute force success. In my honor run the only time I failed my dialogue checks were when they didn’t matter and the one time near the end of the game where you have to roll 20 or fail. Still wasn’t able to use what that gave you though.

>>713561081
and then you have no mana/scrolls for actual fights

>>713613001
Ah Dark Souls

>>713611725
>>713607220
I hope you get PvP'd the next time you leave the house

>>713609727
On DQIII's defense it was a 8bits game ported to SNES/GBC, so you could check your feet on every tile of a city faster than it takes to walk some open world games cities. And most hidden treasures were on special tiles like torches, one of special colored tiles, country emblems and things like that.
And you could check the shitty in game map for cities.
They were more a commodity than necessary.

Something this thread and others made me realize is that almost no one here acrually plays D&D, or tabletop rpgs for a that matter. For almost every single complain I see about how spellslots make no narrative sense, of how thieves are useless, or the inevitable debate about how alignment works, all made me realize that people haven't actually played D&D and are getting their information from vaguely inspired vidya and memes.

Spellslots not making sense? That's explained in the AD&D DMG: Spells are hypercomplex, living formulas ala Jack Vance held as if they were physical objects within a wizard's brain; there's no mana involved, but impossibly long lines of arcane code that often don't fit within the wizard's mind, and must be re-memorized each day.

Thieves being useless? That's the result of bad, storyshit DMs that ignore Gary's advise and don't keep strict time records: A dungeon is throwing monsters at a party regularly, and experience is adquired through gold, more than combat. A thief role is to scout ahead and unheard by monsters so no one gets caught in ambushes.

Alignment? Actually read the Appendix N material: Elric and Three Hearts Three Lions both explain how alignment isn't a personality descriptor, but living cosmic forces that struggle for dominion over creation. Lawful Good is a god, much like Chaotic Evil, and alignment is where you stand in their cosmic battle.

And I could go on and on. That said, it isn't all their fault: D&D derivative media doesn't understand Gygax and Arneson's game either.

>>713560035 (OP)
That is true but my friends and I like to play an all-rogue party sometimes. The adventure would be focused more on intrigues, heists, assassinations etc. It's really fun if you have a good DM.

Adding some more thoughts about the topic: Even the image that D&D is ultimately meant to be a game about dungeon delving, or one about a party of wandering heroes defeating the demon lord often seen in anime and vidya, is not what Gygax and Arneson initially intended even if eventually that's how they designed modules.

The campaign as presented in the AD&D DMG, and as seen in the documents of Blackmoor, is a multi-faceted affair more akin to a full wargame: There's dungeon delving, yes, but the point of it is to get treasure so you can buy mercenaries, clean the land from monsters, build a stronghold and then wage war against your neighbours. Most classes sooner or later get lordly rights and followers because of that. Wilderness encounters of like 200 orcs exist in the Monster Manual because the idea was that at such a point you are wandering in a hexmap as conquering adventurer with an entourage as knights and footmen, not as a random superhero nobody.

D&D is a game about fantasy campaigns, meaning, all aspects of it from man-to-man rules to armies and castles.

I liked how the balance felt initially with Dark and Darker.
Before it got more cluttered.

>>713560148
>trap finding

>>713564346
fern is a bitch