Love them? Hate them? Favorites? Least favorites? Let's talk about it, you idiots

Starting with the name itself, I can't stand the term "metroidvania". I don't think any genre or even sub-genre should be that beholden to one or two games, no matter how much praise they might get. I think a much more appropriate term would simply be "adventure games". The character goes on an adventure, usually in a place they've never been. That's what makes it an adventure. Simple as that.

I also think that leveling, experience points, and skill trees of any kind have got to go. Grinding for power is never as fun as finding items. It also helps to encourage the player to go wherever they want, not held back by thinking themselves too weak, but to take on each room as a puzzle in itself, with enemies being part of that puzzle. How to get through and survive? And then once the puzzle's been solved, only then may it be trivialized or made simpler with items that give substantial and noticeable upgrades to the player's power or movement, or to give a new ability entirely. Also, I think maps should be entirely open - no roadblocks based on abilities. Let the player explore where they want. That doesn't mean the difficulty should be even, some areas can and should have brutal enemies. If the player decides it's too hard, they can come back later. Or the stubborn players can keep trying and get rewarded, especially speedrunners if the item helps them to move around more easily.

What are your takes, /v/?

/v/oomers don't play video gaymes.
This thread will fail and die.

Hollow knight and the ori series are good

>no roadblocks based on abilities
you don't like Metroidvanias, faggot

I know /v/ at this time's going pretty quick, so I'll just give a shout out to one of my favorites - You Are Peter Shorts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6iWnlEwavg

This game technically has 25 (yes, really) playable characters since you can collect diskettes to eventually transform into any one of the enemies you encountered previously. There's multiplayer and a randomizer for the main adventure, and just recently, online co-op was added to all the game modes.

You can also go to any one of the four major areas from the start, with only the final area being walled off. It's an adventure game that doesn't forget that level design and platforming are just as important to these games as the combat is, which has depth but is also immediately accessible for the player. It's a great experience all around.

>>713570967
Go on, make your case. Why do these games have to railroad the player save for giving them a choice between two areas to explore once or twice throughout the game? How does that make the game more fun?

It's not necessary for each area to seem to be accessible, either. Maybe it's only later the player learns of short cuts revealed by exploring those areas having come from another direction, and then on a second run the player knows they can get there from the start. More resilient and observant players will of course find these on their first run and I think there's a sense of joy from feeling like you're breaking the games rules or structure by doing so. Not really, but there's that feeling of "I got there because I wanted to", not because the game has some obstacle that's a glorified keycard that only opens up once you get some item or ability. That's not a puzzle. I would actually welcome a few puzzles that seem cryptic at first but then become clear later as you explore other areas and get more explicit clues as to how the puzzle might be solved.

Another game I'll bang on pots and pans for - Astalon: Tears of the Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlRtvMZkArQ

Three playable characters right at the start, plus two more secret characters you can get later on. So many secrets to find, and false walls out the ass. The only hiccups are the trouble of finding enough orbs to get upgrades when you inevitably die, there's three hidden rooms with idols you can destroy to add a multiplier to your currency, and it harms the player with each strike to destroy them. The map design is outstanding, I'd say pretty much any room is able to be reached within five minutes of restarting at the tower's entrance. Two other caveats - unfortunately, you can't switch characters on the fly until you find an item halfway through the game, and there's only like six bosses total, but the enemies themselves can wear you down easily. But this game's in my top three for sure for adventure games.

Anyone picking leveling and stats is a tranny that should go back on /tv/

This game is often considered the best of its genre. I disagree.
The exploration is useless. Why do you need 200+ rockets? Why do you need more than 3 life bars? The rewards this game gives you for exploring are not a good incentive.

>>713570206 (OP)
Breakable wall for hidden rooms, my incentive for a secret area is mainly weapons, it doesn't matter if they suck, better if they are gimmicky.

Randomizers make metroidvanais infinitely replayable, even better if it can increase the difficulty too so it reaches kaizo levels of retardation and requires the player to use unintended ways of movement or glitches to progress.

Regular leveling or skill points are both fine for me, but ultimately the weapons you find should be the defining trait of how strong you are, and they should be of increasing quality, so you have iron sword then gladius then Excalibur or whatever is the strongest in the one hand sword category with some oddballs like a poison sword, a sword that shoots a projectile or a sword which attacks twice as fast.

>>713572796
>best of its genre
That's Symphony of the Night.

>>713570206 (OP)
>what makes you most likely to replay a game
fucking nothing, only games I replay are ones without a definite ending like binding of Isaac or something
After finishing a game with a definite ending the only thing that makes me replay it is a break of 1-3 years

After finishing Dark souls Im like phew its over, Im not a freak that starts up another character immediately

>>713570206 (OP)
reddit tier genre

Play Vigil The Longest Night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW-rPRH9s48

>>713574360
What's wrong with those graphics? Looks like Bloodstained but they made it real dark to hide some of the ugliness.

>>713574471
The graphics grow on you, is like salt and sanctuary, which is ugly as fuck, but then you realize that it isn't so bad and that it is simply the style of the game then tolerate your character looking like a fucking inbreed goblin.

In Vigil you play as a WEG looking girl.

While on the topic of ugly but good, also try HunterX, now this one actually looks as ugly as bloodstained.

>>713574850
I've played a lot of disgusting looking shit, but Bloodstained is where I draw the line. I don't mind old commodore games, I don't mind GBC games with shitty frame rates and awful tiny images but bloodstained just looks like a mobile game in the most disgusting way possible.
Those you mentioned look more palatable but still... They're rough...

i like dem

>>713572796
With hindsight, yeah, the upgrades for health and missiles don't mean much, but for 1994 I'd say it was a stellar example. Symphony of the Night was fun, too, but being nearly thirty years old, it's easy now to see some of its shortcomings, such as how it has virtually none of the danger that came with the platforming of the classic Castlevania titles that gave those games a unique identity. So many long hallways and vertical shafts where you just jump left and right on platforms. The handheld titles are actually stronger in how they refine the formula, I feel.

>>713574360
I thought that was removed from Steam for whatever reason.

On the subject of enemy design, I've been trying to come up with a categorical system that can account for just about any conceivable enemy that can be found in 2D action games. It's not perfect by any stretch, so I wouldn't mind collaborating to hammer out something better.

There are eight basic types of general enemy behavior that I can think of…

(A) Aggressive – pursues the player or attacks independent of player’s actions
(P) Provoked – can be triggered by player actions
(T) Patrol – only moves within a certain range
(S) Stationary – does not move
(D) Defensive – guards against player attacks
(V) Avoidant – runs from player
(M) Mime – imitates player actions
(Z) Saboteur – affects objects and environment

Enemies that do move could move by…

(1) Popper – emerges from a surface or scenery
(2) Bounder – jumps/bounces around
(3) Charger – moves in bursts
(4) Warper – teleports around the screen
(5) Dropper – drops down from above
(6) Floater – floats around the screen
(7) Walker – simply walking around
(8) Trigger – specific movement or attack triggered by player actions
(9) Orbiter – remains nearby the player at all times

Finally, enemies can attack directly or indirectly by…

(C) Colliding – touching the player, either directly or by swinging a weapon at them
(S) Shooting – projectile shots
(T) Throwing – objects with a set or varying arc
(H) Hexing – attack affecting player’s movement, a negative status effect
(U) Summoning – summons other enemies
(X) Countering – punishes a player’s specific attack or movement
(D) Draining – latch onto player to drain HP, magic, etc.
(E) Setting – sets down objects harmful to player
(Z) Zoning – controls space with lingering effects
(B) Combining – fusing with other enemies
(V) Dividing – breaks down into more enemies
(K) Destructing – unleashes attack upon being killed by player
(F) Buffing – strengthening/protecting enemies

>>713570206 (OP)
>>713570206 (OP)
>24315
>3215>>>>>>>>>>4. FUCK needing secrets for main story completion. I mean I was going to do it anyways but still
>162345
>42135
Discuss

>>713570206 (OP)
Metroidvanias are probably my favorite genre so I picked up ender lilies when I was in the hospital for 2 weeks earlier this year. Was my favorite Metroidvania of the past decade at least. Played magnolia right after and it was still extremely good but not quite the full package lilies was.
As for least favorite really hard to say. I have dropped so much low effort trash I can't remember them all

>>713575106
Here is another one, GRIME, is intentionally ugly in a good way.
>>713575419
The page still shows it for me.

>>713575486
According to ChatGPT, not counting movement types for stationary enemies, there’s potentially 832 unique combinations. The number is even higher considering some enemies could be the exact same combination but executed differently, or be a hybrid of two or more types. The letters and numbers represent shorthand to identify what enemies do when they aren’t yet named.

For example, instead of writing “Saboteur-Bounder-Zoning”, you would write “Z2Z”, instead. An enemy that’s both “Stationary” and “Setting” would be written as “SE”. And so on.

I go through the trouble of doing this because in platformers, action games, and adventure games alike, enemies shouldn't be distinguished only by their appearance and how much damage they give and take. I feel like each enemy in its design should be approached as a puzzle. The first thing the player needs to learn is how the enemy moves, then how to avoid its movement and attacks, and then learning how to counter that enemy. Finally, learning how that enemy moves and attacks that could help to solve larger puzzle and uncover secrets, if necessary. Let me provide a few examples...

A4C – Warps directly in front of the player if the player tries to run from it and passes a certain distance threshold. Will swipe at the player.

A7C – Pursues the player at a low speed. It attacks with a lunging horizontal slice that shifts it forward. The enemy itself is invincible to any attacks from the player. The only way to defeat it is to have it walk into the attack range of an identical enemy and then duck before the both of them swing and destroy each other.

A6K – Slowly drifts toward the player in an oscillating pattern, slowly turns around to pursue the player. If the enemy is too close to the player for too long, it will flash before self-destructing. Try and slip past the enemy when it’s at its highest or lowest point and keep your distance from it before it explodes.

>>713575949
>The first thing the player needs to learn is how the enemy mov-ACK
SOUL STEAL

>>713570827
I hate how right you are. 3 posts trying to discuss things and 0 replies. Why make the damn thread if you aren't going to reply

>>713577960
Because this thread is way too loaded. Make the topic simpler next time on a fast board.

>>713570206 (OP)
>one of the first 3D games has 3/4 of those and its re realeases have almost all

>>713570206 (OP)
"Adventure game" has always been the genre name. Metroidvania was something that journos squirted out post-SotN and was really initially just intended to describe SotN specifically as a contrast to the previous Castlevania games.

>>713570206 (OP)
After the interview with Iga, I am much more interested in what Bloodstained 2 has to offer. There are very real, obvious problems that could come with the concept of "let's put a job system in our sidescrolling platformer" but if they do it well, it'll probably be my favorite of the genre. Big "if" there, but Iga's made more good games than bad so I'm hopeful.

>>713570982
Speaking of, it got an update a few days ago. Bunch of QoL and bugfix stuff, but now it also has online multiplayer co-op mode

I think the biggest problem with a lot of modern games like Nine Sols and Prince of Persia is the map design of "here's an obvious linear path forward, and here's an obvious side bonus room". They're basically a donkey kong country levels but stacked on top of each other instead of a straight line from left to right. Really boring design.