Can someone explain why the things people love in Bloodborne are apparently the same things that make Dark Souls 3 "bad"?
Seems pretty good to me.

>>713677034 (OP)
Bloodborne was its own thing.
DS3 had 2 games before it and a ton of lore it had to abide by and it didn't.

You're back to controlling a slug again but with more rolls and iframes than before.

>>713677034 (OP)
Bloodborne was an exclusive.
You could make all kinds of wild claims and nobody would call you on it.
It isn't until the emulation became feasible that a bunch of people learned Bloodborne was kinda shit

>>713678374
I emulated it and still think it's better than DS3 but I have rollslop fatigue after Elden Ring to get excited for it.

>>713677034 (OP)
fromsoft formula is tech demo -> hit release
demon souls (tech demo) -> dark souls (hit)
dark souls 2 (outsourced, not a real game)
bloodborne (tech demo) -> dark souls 3 (hit)
sekiro (tech demo) -> elden ring (hit)
nightreign (tech demo, or outsourced and not a real game?) -> ???

I love Bloodborne only because of the setting. Getting more games about killing werewolves made by alien cum with blades and guns would be nice

>>713677034 (OP)
Eh, I think both are bad when it comes to build viability and massively prioritizing dex builds.

I think where Bloodborne gets a bit of an edge is just how detailed the world is. Im not a lorefag by any means, but every aspect of Bloodbornes world feels carefully crafted and you can just see the story in the level design. I enjoyed both though. DaS 1 is still my favorite of the "souls likes", Sekiro is my favorite From game.

>>713677034 (OP)
It's dark souls 2 fans getting upset that 3 was better in every way.

>>713678608
Elden Ring is a fun experiment if you've got two friends. Its basically From's take on Monster Hunter but it has some heavy flaws. Still, I got it for 35 bucks and feel happy with it.

>>713678608
This kinda works for Kingsfield Shadow tower Eternal Ring if you start KF1 as a hit
KF3 and Shadow tower are back to back masterpieces though and far better than modern Fromsoft

>>713678608
I'm beginning to think rollslop fatigue is finally starting to set in with the normies after SotE but I doubt Duskbloods would fail since they're that stupid and would consoom anything From shits out like mindless FIFA or CoD cattle.

>>713678783
Nightreign*

>>713677034 (OP)
DS3 is rollspam, the gameplay is so braindead that it could have a 1 to 1 conversion for the gameboy color

>>713678796
they were an irrelevant company before miyazaki started cooking.

>>713678870
Depends. From fans aren't interchangeable with nintendo fans. Nintendo fans are a special breed of consoomer, but to convince somebody to buy a 500 dollar console for one 80 dollar game they then have to spend 30 dollars a month to pay is a tough sell. Nintendo fans will no doubt buy it up and suck it off, so we'll see if they fomo wins out.

>>713678970
Popularity doesn't make games good (I know this might be a bombshell for you, sorry )

>>713678796
KF is more of the same but with far less content and more copied assets than 2010s Fromsoft era.

>>713678783
I think you meant nightreign, and it not being a full price game is a strong argument for (not a real game), thus the switch 2 exclusive they're making will be the tech demo for the next mainline souls game.

>>713679075
but good games make you popular.

>>713679075
Nor does niche nor old status, hipster faggot

>>713679076
Blatant Fake news, lying out the ass
KF has completely unique enemy models and Engines each game.
Soulsborne used the basilisk from DS1 in every game and always has an asylum demon clone.
Also movesets

>>713679086
Oh, it's definitely not a real game. Could have been a DLC mode for Elden Ring, but I'm sure it would have ended up being the same price either way. It does have a bit more effort put into it than the initial asset flip I thought it would be. Still, I think it's still about 10 bucks more than it should be.

DS3 just kind of feels like shit all around. Lacks the weight of either DS1 or BB and it's a weird in between in terms of speed. Weapon movesets are downgraded from BB and their tuning is terrible so most weapons are best used by just spamming R1. Dodging is more spammable and less risky than either game because they got rid of instability frames on the recovery. Nothing's allowed to be really strong, better than average is the best you can hope for. Big weapons don't do dramatically more damage to make up for how hard it is to hit things with them, even knowing how poise works there's very little you can trade with in PVE, spells require extreme investment and still come out feeling weak, the majority of weapon arts are shit considering they cost FP. They strived too hard for a "balanced" game and the end result was everything feeling comparably bad instead of everything feeling good.

>>713679301
I still think what made DaS 1 so good was a lot of little happy accidents. They haven't really been able to capture that lightning in a bottle again.

>>713679148
Old game good, simple as
Shadow tower doesn't have rollspam or softcaps. Its more creative than the Soulsborne games. Remember the harrowing journey down into Blight town, well in Shadow tower thats the entire game

I still can't believe shit like DS3 or ER sold 10 million plus. You'll think the franchise would naturally stay at a steady pace of 2-3 million for mainline games especially if the quality is more or less the same. What happened in the late 2010s to explain this bloat in numbers?

TikTok clips of the bosses.

>>713679601
Blight Town was awful. Shadow Tower is too clunky and sloppy to play.

>>713679656
>>713679732

>>713679656
DS3 removed all the obtuse shit and level design to make itself into a 3D punchout clone. This appeals to adderall chugging zoomoids because it lets them just win off of reaction instead of having to learn anything

>>713679580
it wsa the right game at the right time. and quite frankly, that "prepare to die" ad campaign was perfect placed

>>713679580
100% agree.
The average piece of content in Dark Souls 1 kinda sucks. The average boss in Dark Souls 1 sucks dick. The average weapon feels pretty bleh.
But, you have some high kickoff points that really carry the experience between those points.
I respect Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne for at least trying to innovate, to a mixture of success and failure, both of them, but I feel like they gave up with Dark Souls 3. Couldn't figure out what went right, so they couldn't figure out how to innovate on it, so they just made more of the same, but with blooborne movement. And, while I think the average gameplay experience of 3 IS better than 1, the average boss IS better than 1, those high points just aren't there the same way.
I do still wonder about the game Dark Souls 2 could have been, though, if they were allowed infinite time, budget, and weed to make the thing they were working on.

>>713679747
Wanna try my keyboard binds? I beast that game on keyboard

>>713678608
Bloodborne and Sekiro were in no way a tech demo for those slop games.

>>713679656
Zoomers saw their older Reddit user Zellennial cousin playing Dark Souls and want in it. Also China causes bloat in Steam game sales.

>>713679869
>>713679921
I'll still always be sad about the cut content in 1 but, again, happy accidents. If we got the game as it was meant to be I wonder if it would have been as good as it is. I kinda wonder if it has so much build variety and viability simply by pure happenchance. Like, it wasn't necessarily balanced, but things just fell into to place and the mechanics they managed to finish just happened to click into place perfectly even though so much is imperfect. Still sucks we'll never have the Priscilla content and the nice looking facial/body animations that were all cut.

>>713677034 (OP)
i like both

>>713679656
They released Dark Souls on PC and it all went downhill from there.

>>713677034 (OP)
Bloodborne is trying to be it's own thing and that doesn't just include the setting but the actual mechanics themselves.

DS3 takes none of the good stuff from DS2, it instead has the same gameplay of DS1 but slightly faster and added weapon arts which mostly all suck, it then proceeds to rape everything that makes DS1 good and that includes gameplay and lore. DS3 is massive member berries and it's just not good.

DS3 truly was the beginning of the end for fromsoft, as this is the exact game where "modern" fromsoft design comes in. No soul, just DUDE WHAT IF IT WAS HARD???? U RIKE HARD? HERE'S AN ENEMY THAT SPAMS COMBOS AT YOU AND PUNISHES YOU FOR TRYING TO OBSERVE!!! Level design? What's that? Here's another shitty ass swamp!

Code Vein>>>DaS3

>>713678783
Trust me, not a single dev at fromsoft that has a say in anything important has ever played a Monster Hunter game in their life.

It mogs hard. Even a piece of shit like wilds outclasses fromsoft's attempt at both character and enemy design

>>713680565
>Even a piece of shit like wilds

Lol, no.
If you would have said World I'd be inclined to agree, Wilds is pure AAA slop with casualized gameplay and tranny actors included.

>>713680417
DS3 is the worst game ever made, ofcourse anything BTFOs it

>>713680716
It's still better than fromshit. That's my point, one of the series lowest still has better design because the bar is just that low for fromsoft.

Fromsoft's strength was NEVER the combat, at least when it comes to the moment to moment combat. AND THAT'S OKAY back then, when level design was better, bosses were more puzzle like and more about trying to give you an interesting experience rather than "what if you fought a big humanoid and he flipped around and did a bunch of combos". They have NO clue what they're doing. Also more importantly Monster Hunter is about fighting big monsters and it works and is fun while big monsters are consistently the worst fucking bosses in EVERY souls game and they still haven't improved upon them, they're still as dogshit as they've always been. There is no attempt at improvement.

>>713680358
>DS1
>2 hit enemy combos that you can walk around
>DS3
>kilometer dashes into an 8 hit combo with delayed attacks. You must roll it all due to the tracking and gap closing
DS3 is astronomically more fast than DS1, not slightly

>>713680949
Nah, Wilds is lower than most of Froms library. I still disagree. New monster designs range from mid to terrible, a terrible forced story with walking segments, dei, casualized gameplay, barely any monsters in the base game, timed events, sometimes looked worse than Switch Rise. You wanna go for one to compare them, go for World. Wilds is horrendous.

>>713681050
Now do Elden Ring

>>713680294
I think cut content is a coping statement when From proved to not use its assets well and run things into the ground while getting away with it. The new audience is too dumb to notice but will soon find out.

>>713681050
when I talked about speed it was in relation to the player character, not the enemies themselves. The speed of the enemies is obviously faster but that's a problem because the player is only a bit faster while enemies are way faster and more mobile and harder hitting and have better range.

Compared to BB where the speed of the enemies is fairly matched with the players speed.

>>713681181
In DaS 1's case, I think they legit just ran out of time, budget, or couldn't get it working on the hardware. They have some leaked footage of the facial and body rigs that looked really great and have never made a reappearance in their later games. Beyond that there was the cut story content which makes Priscilla's inclusion kinda sad but good that she wasn't all together removed like some cut things in later From games.

>>713680902
Anything BTFOs any Fromslop game.

>>713681395
This literally always happens dude. Every single one of their games has a lot of cut content. DeS is the most obvious with the broken archstone.

>>713681494
Oh yeah, I just meant that in DaS 1's case I think it was a lot more understandable. They were trying to innovate in some areas that would be completely abandoned in the future. In later From games the cut content seems a lot more, I'm not sure of the word... haphazard? Like you aren't quite sure why they removed it when it was mostly done and wouldn't cause any issues to include. Several bosses in both Sekiro and Elden come to mind, as well as a couple fully voiced quests.

>>713681395
They should have removed Priscilla alltogether since her fight was underwhelming and level up shit is tiresome and retarded and an excuse to bloat content without tying a narrative with that npc.

>>713681395
DS1, they ran out of time, had to cut down the end of the game and side content.
DS2, they ran out of time, and had to take the various unconnected blobs of gameplay they had done, and spot weld them together, while also redoing a bunch of shit.

We are not the same

>>713681395
Priscilla would only work in a story game. Fromsoft is allergic to that and just throws shit at the wall and see what sticks type of devs with no creative nor logical sound design found.

>>713677034 (OP)
DS isnt bad. its just contrarian bullshit. Bloodborne is an exclusive and has yet to see a pc port. and the reason why people hold it in higher regard.

>>713681942
I guess that's the part that always makes me feel sort of melancholy about 1. Mind you, I don't really care about stories in my games, but in 1 they initially looked to be putting effort into both the story and presentation as well as the gameplay. They had some neat facial animation tech for the time and were going to be just a bit more cinematic with the conversations. This was, of course, all cut. Not the biggest deal in the world to me, but it really would have made a special game even more special but, of course, could have changed the trajectory of everything for the worse. We see how cinematic and story games have evolved and its not pretty. I think everything just gets more stagnant over time though so either way it would have ended up at the same bland ending.

>>713681196
>The speed of the enemies is obviously faster but that's a problem
No it's not
Enemies stagger a lot more in Dark Souls 3
It's clearly a more reactive enemy design that interacts much more than simply attacking, so the speed buff is warranted

>>713680949
>Fromsoft's strength was NEVER the combat
They became top of the industry with a bunch of action RPGs where you go around killing stuff, take the head off your ass Matthewshitosis drone

>>713680358
>DS3 truly was the beginning of the end for fromsoft, as this is the exact game where "modern" fromsoft design comes in. No soul, just DUDE WHAT IF IT WAS HARD???? U RIKE HARD? HERE'S AN ENEMY THAT SPAMS COMBOS AT YOU AND PUNISHES YOU FOR TRYING TO OBSERVE!!!
Skill issue

>>713682280

>>713679921
>I do still wonder about the game Dark Souls 2 could have been, though, if they were allowed infinite time, budget, and weed to make the thing they were working on.
Elden Ring. Elden Ring is what DS2 would've been.

>>713682471
Eyup.

>>713680358
You guys are really bad at videogames lmao.

>>713679921
>I respect Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne for at least trying to innovate, to a mixture of success and failure, both of them, but I feel like they gave up with Dark Souls 3. Couldn't figure out what went right, so they couldn't figure out how to innovate on it,
Dark Souls 3 is the literal foundation of Elden Ring, which is a polished and improved version of it
>so they just made more of the same, but with blooborne movement.
But Dark Souls 3 doesn't have Bloodborne movement, retard
>I do still wonder about the game Dark Souls 2 could have been, though
Pretty much what it already is bevause the foundation of Dark Souls 2 gameplay mechanics suck. Not even lock on works proper

>>713681050
Aren't you talking about DS2?

>>713682414
>>713682562

>>713682658
I am suddenly reminded of why I hated DS2 so much

>>713682718
Skill issue

>>713682767
Making me pull out the true classics, huh

>There's retards still filtered by Dark Souls 3

>>713681860
Alot of devs get rushed but their games are less barren and copy pasted than your typical Fromsoft.

>>713678661
>I think both are bad when it comes to build viability and massively prioritizing dex builds.
You are fucking retarded bro.
Strength weapons are the best in either games

Is there a mod to make DS3 more like DS1?

I hate to say this but Bethesda has a better track record of games than Fromsoft does.

>>713677034 (OP)
I actually like Dark Souls 3 far more than Bloodborne
Dark Souls 3 has better level design, bosses, enemy design and build variety
The only issue with Dark Souls 3 is that there's no dual Gargoyles boss fight

>>713683102
Lmao

>>713683279
the man with no taste

If your game's fans only based the quality of that game around difficulty only then it's truly a bad game with no substance.

>>713683382
Projection

>>713683279
And just like that, I wanna play DaS 1 again. I'll start a new playthrough tomorrow

>>713683382
They aren't even difficult, that's the real kicker. DeS and DaS1 have a lot of merit that make them stand out and is a big reason why the series got big in the first place but since then they drank their own "muh difficulty" koolaid and threw everything else at the window in order to make the game "harder" and more combat focused and the result is utter dogshit

>>713683279
Build variety doesn't matter when every class plays the fucking same and only having boss fights to cling onto doesn't spell a better game either.

>>713677034 (OP)
>Can someone explain why the things people love in Bloodborne are apparently the same things that make Dark Souls 3 "bad"?
Because they are entirely different games with entirely different balance behind them. Something bad in one game might not be bad in another because they are put in a different context.

>>713683382
You're the one crying about difficulty. Real Soulsfans like the methodical combat (yes it remains far more methodical then the rest of the industry even after DS1).

Once you beat a souls game for the first time the majority of the game becomes skipping past most of the content because it's not actually that fun or interesting.

I'd like to remind all of the new babs that the one game where this isn't an issue is DeS because many areas of the game FORCE you to fight enemies, they are actual roadblocks and running past them is hard to near impossible in most cases. And that's okay because it's also the shortest game of the bunch and replaying it is actually really fun. Replays of other souls games are short but that's because you're ignoring so much of the content

Soulstards are just FIFAfags in disguise. Mindless boss fights are like ball games but at least ball sports require actual skill.

>>713683612
(you)

>>713683505
>Build variety doesn't matter when every class plays the fucking same
From which youtuber did you take this opinion, lil bro?
>and only having boss fights to cling onto
And you established that baded on what? Dark Souls 3 doesn't have level? Faggot
>doesn't spell
Yeah one of the reason I like Dark Souls 3 better

>>713683952
what does webm have to do with your post?
>doesn't have level?
>posts cheesed boss fight

>>713683952
dood I can like le parry and then I do attack and it deal a lot of damage!! build variety so sig!!!!

>>713684027
>It doesn't count because I say so
>>713684025
>Deflection

>>713684140
>It doesn't count because I say so
what the fuck are you on about retard. I'm judging your webm alone, i'm not in your faggot little argument. Nothing special about parrying one of the easiest to parry bosses in the entire game

>>713684140
>dark souls 3 is heckin hard bro
>watch me buff myself then walk backwards and 2 hit the enemy
what are these webms trying to prove?

Bloodbourne is the Sonic CD of Souls games

>>713684214
>Malding this much over a webm
Are you ok, lil bro?

>>713684327
Except Sonic CD was actually good.

>>713684307
See >>713684352

>>713684352
>souls is le hardcore gamer
You wouldn't last in a real game, let alone something actually difficult like a fighting game.

>>713677034 (OP)
Bloodborne had the lifesteal mechanic, meaning you had to play more aggressive after being hit if you wanted to be rewarded with restored HP. DS3 on the other hand promoted roll spamming which looked silly watching someone roll away like a racoon after being touched once by an enemy mob or boss. Still loved both games.

>>713684474
What's wrong lil bro, why are you so agitated?

>>713684462
but what do the webms mean, anon?

I love all the soulsborne games, always have.
Elden ring blowing up and making the whole genre popular won't turn me away like it did some of you.
They will always be my favorite game series.

>>713684627
Embarrassingly boring and basic clips. You can like dark souls but to obsess over it like this really shows how lacking your brain development is.

>>713684728
Imagine assuming these faggots have eer been actual fans and not just butthurt niggers mad Souls games are more mainstream than dead shit series they like

>>713684627
kek you really think posting irrelevant webms is making us seethe or something? so youre trying to rub it in?

>>713677034 (OP)
Because rolls look dumb compared to bb dodges

>>713684759
Why are you mad though?
>>713684865

>>713684959
The other way around

>>713685018
but what do the webms mean, anon? what are you trying to say? you still haven't told me

>>713685160
I think he's just posting the fact that he is actually playing the game and not just seething about it on /v/

>>713685276
why record such boring webms in the first place. You can beat any souls game in a day or two, doubt anyone here who shits on DS3 hasn't beaten it unless they hate souls games entirely.

>>713685276
no, that doesnt make sense...
i think he lost an argument and had to scramble to find something else... pity

>>713683505
>Only boss fights
Dark Souls 3 doesn't have normal enemies?

>>713685160
What do webms mean, anon?

The worst part is all of them are PvE. I think PvP is super gay but if he was posting a funny or actually impressive moment in PvP maybe i'd care. Literally just posting the most basic gameplay webms possible

>>713685661
>Still mad

>>713684542
>DS3 on the other hand promoted roll spamming
How did Dark Souls 3 promote rollspamming? By having weaker less spammable dodge with weaker dodge attack? If you were rollspamming, that's on you, quit projecting

>>713679132
Not necessarily. To be popular the game just should be in demand and demand itself can be manufactured with insidious marketing pitch

>>713686025
By making rolls cost practically no stamina. With zero stamina investment you could spam roll from one side of the boss arena to the other, and still have stamina left for more. Sure, at the end it's the player's fault for abusing it, but being designed like that by the developer team also says a lot.

>>713686154
Not true, also all Souls games have roll that cost little stamina. Rolling is the weakest most passive defensive option. They put you on the backfoot against the enemy

I am convinced souls games are not even hard. It's the retarded playerbase that makes it so with bullshit unspoken rules. Roll spam and pattern recognition isn't even required that much if you play smart, use items, spells, abilities etc

>>713686294
???
did you ever actually play the series? rolling is far and away the best defensive. youre gonna have to actually explain in detail what you mean

>>713686294
>Has never played a souls game pre-DS3

>>713677034 (OP)
I'm not gonna argue what's bad, only what's different/may have been a misstep.
All games are based on lessons learned from previous attempts, and I think the lessons learned from what came before DS3 were the wrong ones to implement, and many of those lessons came from Bloodborne.
DS can be seen as a pretty minor evolution of DeS. Extremely similar, but bigger, a few more bells and whistles.
DS2 can be seen a real attempt to actual evolve the gameplay of DS. It's way harder, requires more investment to be stronger, more convoluted, more adventure focused.
BB is the first real deviation from everything. It's 100% about speed, aggression, getting in getting out. Level design is simplified, along with weapons, armour, spells and other Dark Souls-things you'd come to expect. The game is specifically crafted around these limitations.
DS3 is the first misstep. It didn't take the lessons of DeS>DS>DS2 to then evolve the formula further. It instead looked to BB for inspiration. Unfortunately, what BB is does not entirely mesh with what DS is. It can kinda work, kinda, but you're forcing something. Suddenly the slower-paced dungeon crawler adventure game has this layer of fast-action on top of it, which feels incongruous. You can roll way more way faster (BB), you can walk around while healing (BB), armour is kinda less important (BB), weapons have fancy "arts" (BB), bosses are way quicker with longer attack strings (BB).
I'm not saying that's bad exactly - I still really enjoyed DS3 for what it was. But I can see why someone who wanted more of DS and DS2 was let down.

>>713686796
I'll add to this saying that ER furthered the misstep. It's a real kitchen sink of former Fromsoft mechanics, which ends up with bosses needing to be these massive HP bloats with insane attack strings and gotchas. It learned the wrong lessons, which isn't to say it was bad exactly, it's just not exactly what I wanted.
Funnily enough NR seems to have taken the right lessons, or at least iterated on them correctly. It's gone full anti-dungeon crawler, cutting all the chaff from the RP of the G and leaving you with a very fast paced action game.
I'm hoping for a future Fromsoft game to look at DeS/DS/DS2 and garner inspiration from them - a slower, more purposeful game full of adventure and mystery and tribulation.

>>713686735
>>713686596
Nope, in all Souls games dodging is very cheap in stamina because it doesn't achieve anything besides being a passive defensive move. You are stuck in committment while the enemy can recover from its attacks. If dodging was balanced around hefty stamina costs, then it would have to be stripped of its recovery and committment animations, ruining the gameplay
>>713686796
Also wrong, considering Dark Souls had ninja flips aka the most OP dodge

>>713687180
>late game DS1 clip
wow you really proved your point!

At the start of DS3, you can probably roll about 10 or more times before stamina can run out. Not the case in DeS, DS1, and certainly not the case with DS2

>>713686796
>DS2 can be seen a real attempt to actual evolve the gameplay of DS. It's way harder, requires more investment to be stronger, more convoluted, more adventure focused
Lol
>BB is the first real deviation from everything. Level design is simplified
LMAO
Dark Souls 2 fanboys are truly a different breed of cunt

>>713687328
>At the start of DS3, you can probably roll
No need to guess, tertiary faggot

>>713687180
You roll through an attack, past the enemy, and while he continues his combo, you wail on his ass. Literally in your webm you show how good rolling is. iframe through an attack and near immediately pivot to combo. IF you blocked, you would've been in an animation and would've lost a lot more stamina than that roll. The fact you don't even a shield equipped shows how good rolling is as an option.
Also, Dark Souls 1 and 2 only let you roll a few times. I think ds2 was only 4, but I could be off one. Dark Souls 3 is something like 8 or 9. There's a LimitBreakers video about it you could find real quick.

>>713687436
>You roll through an attack, past the enemy, and while he continues his combo, you wail on his ass.
That's very situational and enemy dependant
>Also, Dark Souls 1 and 2 only let you roll a few times
False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNCG3IVCbF0

>>713687436
>The fact you don't even a shield equipped shows how good rolling is as an option.
Nice argument, retard
>The fact that you don't have armor equipped, shows how bad armor is in Dark Souls

>>713677034 (OP)
Sekiro is their best game and it’s not even close

>>713687642
Boring

>>713687521
https://youtu.be/0vFgVQAGZFI?t=419
At max stamina for each, Ds 1 and 2 is 7 while 3 is 12. That's a hefty amount. Considering Pontif Sullihvan has a combo that practically requires the player to rapidly roll away.
>very situational
Believe it or not, it isn't. Most enemies and bosses you can effortlessly roll through their slower swings and get a few hits in. If you've played the previous entries, you could easily tell.

>>713687595
Not what I'm saying and you know it, sweetie.

>>713687436
Dodging having multiple layers of depth doesn't mean the game incentivizes using it always.
People who complain Dark Souls 3 is rollspam are bad players who suffered through the game because they are brain damaged and unable to discern each situation and properly move with enemies.
Elden Ring further cemented that

>>713677034 (OP)
Bloodborne had better atmosphere, combat, soundtrack and freedom. DS3 has slightly better bosses but feels depressing to play

>>713687962
>At max stamina for each, Ds 1 and 2 is 7 while 3 is 12. That's a hefty amount.
Nobody gives a fuck about this tunnel visioned armchair game designer bullshit
Dark Souls 3 kills your stamina regen on any kind of action you commit, from using spells to items. It's a faster game meant to give more stamina to extend stun states in general. It doesn't unilaterally just buff the number of rolls you can do, rolls kept the same proportional cost they have in other games
>Considering Pontif Sullihvan has a combo that practically requires the player to rapidly roll away.
Git gud
>Believe it or not, it isn't.
The fact that you commented that on a fucking Manus webm shows how much of a tourist you are

>>713687970
>Dodging having multiple layers of depth doesn't mean the game incentivizes using it always.
Never made that claim. However, most players will simply use rolling over most other defensive options because of its ease of us and accessibility. Yes, a veteran or just someone knowledgeable will use all of the tools given to them. But it's the fact you easily can roll to avoid the vast majority of all attacks and in a lot of cases, come out better for it.

>>713688134
>Nuh-uh that evidence doesnt count because i dont like it
You should show a webm of you actually fighting Pontiff with a regular weapon and not just running around allowing your stamina to keep up. I could just pick up a couple of YouTube videos of players fighting him to prove my point, but since you have so many webms, surely you have one, right? Anyway, the webm isn't showing the full picture. It's you running in circles, not fighting, and you didn't even show thee attack I was talking about.
>Git Gud
Ah, the classic response when a souls fanboy has nothing else.

>>713687962
Does he compare the average amount? DS2 has classes that have extremely low stamina at the start

>>713688327
>However, most players will simply use rolling over most other defensive options because of its ease of us and accessibility.
That's called skill ceiling
>You should show a webm of you actually fighting Pontiff
>with a regular weapon and not just running around allowing your stamina to keep up.
Yeah almost like attacking is most of the stamina costs in each game, retard

>>713677034 (OP)
In Demon's Souls, you play a Demon's Souls character fighting Demon's Souls enemies.
In Dark Souls, you play a Dark Souls character fighting Dark Souls enemies.
In Dark Souls 2, you play a Dark Souls character fighting Dark Souls enemies.
In Bloodborne, you play a Bloodborne character fighting Bloodborne enemies.
In Dark Souls 3, you play a Dark Souls character fighting Bloodborne enemies.
And that's where it all went wrong. Elden Ring then took that retarded design and dialed it up to even worse levels.

>>713688602
Elden ring is a dark souls character fighting sekiro enemies and it's truly the games greatest offense, especially considering it's a NEW FUCKING IP

>>713679075
No, but them being good makes them popular.

>>713680565
Monster Hunter is the sloppiest slop series ever made. It's Nightreign level regurgitation but for 20+ fucking years straight.

>>713688327
>>Git Gud
>Ah, the classic response
Yes. Get fucked tourist
Dark Souls 3 introduced undodgeable attacks and gave a relevant directional components to all dodges. Elden Ring dialed it up. Spamming dodges is a guaranteed way to hate the game and suffer through it. You can beat it but you will learn nothing from it and you will throw bitchfits about "annoying" enemies every time you meet an hardwall with 160 frames of attack animations

>>713686596
Gonna disagree with you there
The best evasion tech is moving out of the way. Costs nothing, maximizes the amount of time to punish.
Rolling inherrently does not work well with standard evasion. If you have enough time to know you need to roll, you have enough time to move, and if you fucked up your movement, rolling doesn't help, because you already got hit, and if you panic roll, you are just rolling. There is a very narrow band of situations where you are moving out of the way, with the expectation of needing to roll for better advantage, or make a mistake that you have just enough time to roll for, but not walk away from.
Blocking has much greater synergy with evasion. It costs nothing if you don't get hit/move properly, but protects against movement mistakes better, by nullifying/significantly reducing the damage taken, while still often securing advantageous positioning.
Movement+Blocking is better than Movement+Rolling, and Movement alone is better than rolling.
Not even bringing parries into the discussion, because I hate parries and think they ruin the game.
Rolling is a tool that gets spammed because it's easy, but it's not the most effective tool for avoiding damage, or maximizing opportunity at your disposal.

>>713688886
he says in a fromsoft thread

>>713688887
>Dark Souls 3 introduced undodgeable attacks
Bad game design.

>>713688952
The vast majority of attacks in souls games can not be evaded by simply moving.

>>713689216
Wrong

>>713688551
If you think overusing a single tool equals a high skill ceiling, you probably think the blue shell in Mario Kart is a high-tier strategy. DS3 hands out stamina like candy because the game’s balance relies on you spamming rolls, it’s exactly why stamina regens so fast. You’re also misrepresenting what a skill ceiling even is just to justify a design limitation. If rolling was truly a high skill mechanic, then new players wouldn’t be able to rely on it so heavily, right? But when Pontiff busts out his thousand hit wombo combo, they mash roll and get away with it because of how many rolls DS3 gives per stamina bar, how fast stamina regens, how generous the i-frames and roll distance are, and because it’s all just one button. No timing, no spacing... just panic mashing.

Anyway, clearly this isn't going anywhere. I'm checking out.

>>713688887
Take a breather, sweetie.

>>713688952
I hear you, and i don't disagree with the 'idea' that smart positioning and blocking are more effective when used right. And that's the thing, 'when used right'. Regardless, my issue isn't how rolling should be used, it's with how in ds3, it encourages it to be used. Whether or not its optimal doesn't really mean much when the game is largely balanced in a way that pushes most players, especially newer ones, into relingon rolls constantly just ot survive. I don't think that's a reflection of the player, more os the result of thee nocunter design. Anyway, I'm done here. I appreciate your response, anon. You seem a nicer fellow. have a good one!

>>713682718
I'm sure someday you won't suck dick at Soulsbourne games

>>713689353
>If you think overusing a single tool equals a high skill ceiling
Retard

>>713689493
Anybody who thinks souls games takes skill have never played a genuinely hard game in their life. Go play a fucking shmup or fighting game or something

>>713689353
>If you think overusing a single tool equals a high skill ceiling
My God you are truly braindead
>DS3 hands out stamina like candy
No it doesn't
>it’s exactly why stamina regens so fast
Nope, same regen rate as other games, but you use stamina for casting spells and blocking slowed rate applies to other actions
>because of how many rolls DS3 gives per stamina bar
Dodging is not balanced around rolling, it's balanced around committment and vulnerability frames

>>713687970
I weep at how even after I put almost a thousand hours on Soulsbourne games I still panic roll instead of trying to dodge intelligently.

>>713688602
/thread

>>713689216
That only tells me you've never actually tried

>>713689634
I'm sure a hardened badass like you can beat Soulsbourne games with all your fighting gaymes knowledge. Maybe Touhou can help you not be a retard, too

>>713689353
>it's with how in ds3, it encourages it to be used
Except it consistently does not

>>713682718
You guys are really bad at videogames lmao.

Stranger of Paradise blows any souls game out of the water both in mechanics, builds, and difficulty. What a pointless argument you fags are having.

>>713689216
kek

>>713689353
Any decent player is constantly starved out for stamina and aggroing the enemy.
When you claim that Dark Souls 3 gives stamina like candy, you really just saying you are bad and play passive

>>713689887
Holy shit you guys are terrible at the game. Just kill yourself, youre giving me 2nd hand embarassment

>>713688737
Enemies such as? I only spotted the big monkey cosplaying as a bear

>>713682658
i just did a playthrough with zero adp
These guys literally stop attacking if you successfully dodge out of their way, like behind them or sufficiently far to the side
I swear almost everyone bitching about DS2 hitboxes or attacks is such a a fucking baby. Its literally the one game designed around everything being perfectly dodgeable with no i-frames, but people are retarded (specially ds3 tourists) so they will moan and whine about it because they just cant figure out how theyre supposed to play even at the end of a 50 hour game

I like doing chalice dungeons and I am tired of pretending I do not.

Fromsoft is bad at making videogames

>>713690427
I don't mean literal sekiro enemies, I mean I have no doubt they might've recycled some animations but a lot of ER enemies could be put in Sekiro and it would make perfect sense. Morgott is a pretty good example, he reminds me a lot of owl.

>>713690468
I just wish there was a place that made sense to do them. If you do chalice dungeons + DLC you'll just be so OP for a lot of content.

>>713688737
>is a dark souls character
ok thats an exageration
like yeah you might be a souls guy, but you have extremely powerful jumps, ds3 rolls, extremely busted weapon skills and more cool gear around...
Even ignoring the gay summon bullshit, its a game where youre meant to fight power with power. It has much longer runtime, much more ways to get powerful and more sources of fancy cool mechanics and moves and weapons.

And thats the real flaw with Elden Ring: LUCK, route, loot, all that shit. Someone might have the intended ER experience of finding a ton of cool gear over the course of their playthrough, evolve beyond just being a generic souls guy and have it hold up for 100+ hours. Or instead you might end up going 40-50hours playing as just a slightly faster generic Dark Souls character, just endlessly roll and poke/slash bosses at their recoveries, find no interesting spells and tricks for the fantasy you were aiming for, and ultimately get bored to death and probably drop the game

The biggest issue is that both the developers and the community care too much about the combat mechanics of these games. I liked DaS because it let me actually explore a believable and unique fantasy world where enemies had to be taken seriously and understanding of mechanics was rewarded. The difficulty was a means to an end.
If I have to care about i-frames the game might be harder and even quite fun, but it sucks the immersion out of it because it's so videogamey.
Same goes for fast travel and bonfires everywhere.

It's obvious however From does not care to make an actual Dark Souls II

>>713690463
>i just did a playthrough with zero adp
No such thing as "zero" ADP
>I swear almost everyone bitching about DS2 hitboxes or attacks is such a a fucking baby. Its literally the one game designed around everything being perfectly dodgeable with no i-frames
Nuh uh. The hitboxes of Dark Souls 2 are embarassingly bad. Even with 3 ADP, you are better off dodging to avoid the phantom hitbox ranges
That and dodging is literally free in Dark Souls 2 since the enemy is too slow to punish you wasting time on the ground

>>713690825
>The difficulty was a means to an end.
Holy buzzword

>>713690825
NOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THE GAME IS ABOUT BEING LE HAAAARD I AM LE HARDCORE FOR BEATING THEM

Seriously though, fromsoft and fans ruined this series. Elden Ring is the sloppiest of slop "adventure" games ever conceived. Terrible level design, terrible open world, and it's excruciatingly long. This series is at it's best when it's offering you VARIETY and ER lacks variety, especially for it's length.

DeS is my favorite game out of all of them because it jams the most amount of variety and gimmikcs to it's levels within the least amount of time. It feels like a true adventure to me. DaS does too but I often skip the bad or annoying parts on repeats and it feels less "adventurous" as a result.

>>713689887
>non-boss gameplay
NOBODY cares.

Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3, Elden Ring all the third party "Souls" games try (and mostly succeed) to be good video games.
Dark Souls and Demon's Souls tried to not feel like video games at all.

>>713691384
The thing is they did try and feel like video games.
Except those video games were dungeon crawlers and not action games.
There is legitimately more of those old "Solo Rpg, Chose your Own Adventure" books in the first two games DNA than many traditional video game influences because of those dungeon crawler roots.

>>713690825
idk, I think ds2 did try to continue on the feeling, but just got fucked over in development. it seems to be a decent attempt as it is now even despite its problems

Bloodborne blew too. The ideal souls game would be a fusion of the map design of Dark Souls 1 with the environmental quirks and exploration focus of Dark Souls 2. Take the music from DeS and DS1 and wrap it all up in a DS2 combat system. Bonus points: Remove bosses altogether and instead make bonfires way further apart with a way higher focus on attrition and managing your resources between bonfires. Remove homeward bones and bonfires warp. Bump up the enemies between points and now the player must make the decision to either push onward with strained resources or retreat with what little resources they have left

>>713692572
>remove bosses
Just fuck off to a different series.

>>713692572
not sure about the removal of bosses entirely, but I would'nt be opposed to fewer bosses with greater emphasis

>>713693110
Fuck up you dumb nigger. Boss wank was the death of this series. There is a much greater satisfaction to be found in attrition based exploration and tactical engagement choices than roll spamming the big scary knight to choirslop.

>>713678608
Demon's Souls is much better than Dark Souls 1
>DS2 outsourced
>guy who directed it has co-directed every single major From release since
kek

>17 bosses in base game blood borne
>at least 10 of them suck
The only reason BB was glazed so hard was PS exclusivity. Nobody excited to refight the Witch of Hemwick or a DS2 Skeleton Lords reskin

>>713693556
>DS2 Skeleton Lords
I legit never saw anyone dying to this boss. I don't think it's even possible unless you just afk

>>713678374
this

>>713694152
it can happen, saw it a few times during coop
every time its when a player rushes the lords and then gets overwhelmed with the mobs

Lies of P>both

>>713693556
I'd rather have a Skeleton Lord that 20 Artoriases. Having everything be some sort of DUEL kills the variety in encounters.

>>713693224
Bosses were an important part of the whole experience. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Artorias of the Abyss started the whole "wew, such stronk bozzes, imagine if his le hand was still intact xD" cringe.

>>713694747
Lies of P punishes you for making the simplest of mistakes. You can't even block correctly, it's deflect or suffer.

>>713695012
Not bosses like Artorias and Promised Consort Radahn. Bosses like the Tower Knight.

Every action game and its brother has a Flamelurker, but only Demon's Souls has a Tower Knight or a Maiden Astraea.

I miss when these were adventure games, not the action slop they are now. I want my knight game back, and it was taken away at my expense.

>>713677134
Not just lore but GAMEPLAY. DS3 plays more like BB2 than a DS game.

>>713695012
>imagine if his le hand was still intact xD cringe
Artorias isn’t left handed, that was a retarded nonsensical fan theory (that the moronic Z-team developers of DS2 thought was actually real and referenced in their DLC) that then got debunked in 3 when the A-team had to set the record straight. Blame DS2 for popularizing that cringe shit. His armor design is right handed, he got his arm damaged blocking an attack to defend Sif, and his Greatshield is damaged. Put these all together and the obvious conclusion is he blocked a hit with his left hand holding his shield in it.

>>713695769
>uh uhhhhh DS3 plays like BB
You have not actually played BB.

>>713678661
BB has shit build variety. DS3 has a great amount of variety, I've made so many wacky builds. Elden Ring is definitely better in terms of house you can build your character, but the open world and sheer size of it all make replaying a much bigger ask that i am not willing to do again.

>>713677034 (OP)
BB was it's own game and was judged as such.
DS3 is the last installment of the dark souls series which isn't bad on its own but the problem is that they completely switched genres, we went from a down to earth dungeon crawler to this half-assed boss rush.

>>713692572
Bosses are fine but they shouldn't be the entire focus of the game. The boss should be your final test on how well you explored the area, dark souls 2 did this aspect really well by altering the boss arena or getting additional allies.

>>713690859
>Those reflective floors
RAYTRACING BROS HOW?!?!!?!

>>713678870
Normies barely beat Elden Ring with spirit summons. It was never their genre to begin with.

>>713696804
I didn't come to Souls to roll like a deranged ninja. You can do that in every other action game.

>>713679290
More companies should do this. The fact people get mad at smart development practices that clearly work and keep people interested while adding more to future titles is just smart.

>>713679295
>Nightreign should have cost the same but should have been DLC arbitrarily tied to Elden Ring for no reason whatsoever simply to created additional barriers of entry
Not saying this is your argument, simply staying that people unironically make this claim.

>>713679860
>Circle strafe into backstabbing stopped working, and enemies were programed to abuse rollspam
>That means the new games are for Adderall junkies
Being forced to time your dodge rolls is actually a good step up. If you want passive defensive measures, hold up a shield and learn stamina management. It's been made easier than ever to boot with the inclusion of guard counters.

The fact of the matter is, Dark Souls 1 was the majority of people's first Souls game, so it gets a ton of undeserved praise that Demon's Souls was actually responsible for. Every Dark Souls game should rank on the bottom 3 of every PS3+ FromtSoft list if you had an opinion worth listening to.

>>713696872
Then adopt a shield.

>>713690463
>These guys literally stop attacking if you successfully dodge out of their way, like behind them or sufficiently far to the side
Same as DS3 and Elden Ring then.

>>713678796
Shadow Tower is total dogshit and anyone that paid money for it would have been ripped off.

>>713678661
Bloodborne's world really is one of its best appeals.
Everything feels coherent and connected and there is very little in it that feels extraneous or not telling an important story.
The Forbidden Woods is the only part of the game that I think doesn't really mesh with the rest in a complex way.

>>713682962
Not at all.
What makes FromSoft so impressive is that when the crunch hits and they have to get the game out, even when everything isn't done fully, they succeed at maintaining a very dense and impressive experience that feels large and deep, despite it all.

DS3 is much better than BB. The only good things about BB is that it's very short and you can skip the tedious first half, and also that the game is scaled well enough for you to get far without needing to farm anything. Is the DLC great? Yes, but it's a dlc. Chalice is bullshit and I softlocked my save because From abandoned the game in the first year and Sony ‘'cares’' about BB enough to keep the servers up. DS3 is the opposite of that, the first half is better than BB, it has functional PVP and it's just more enjoyable to play.

>>713679656
>why does a game series with a high reputation for quality and a rabid fanbase gather more fans over time
There's no bloat, it is just every successive Souls game building upon the prior game's popularity in a natural way.
Fantasy has been immensely popular for the last 20 years and that isn't going away any time soon. People like challenging games, or the perception of challenge.

>>713680358
How much observing do you need to do?

>>713684025
>using game mechanics is cheesing
Are you retarded?

>>713677034 (OP)
The thing I hated about DS3 is how fucking slow it felt compared to bloodborne.

>>713684474
>pvp baby
Why don't you play an actual game that isn't lazy slop that replaces game design with just putting you against another player?

>>713700751
>Start game
>Take a single step
>Die and have to restart a fresh save file because the game starts you on a linear/narrow path on a death pit

>>713678796
bro there is no shot you played shadow tower and thought it was good unless you were using a fucking walkthrough or something
it has so many terrible sections and its durability balance is completely fucked, and i fucking love king's field

>>713701729

>>713690783
The problem with Elden Ring is that it expects players to be good at the game and gives them a million tools to do it with, and then they don't touch any of them because they're all retards.

>>713690825
You people hanging off that one Miyazaki quote for 15 years ago like its a gallows are ridiculous.
Yes, the games aren't just difficult for the sake of difficulty, they aren't Kaizo Mario. That hasn't changed.
The issue is that you use that line as a bludgeon against any time the game series gets more challenging than you are comfortable with as though they just committed a great flaw for it.
DeS was absolutely difficult in a deliberate way like all other games in the series are. Old King Doran being hard as hell was a deliberate challenge. Allant stealing levels is hard in a deliberate way.

>>713692572
>>713693224
This is the worst and most autistic way of changing the game series I've ever heard.
No one has satisfaction fighting a thousand mob enemies just because it stresses resources.
Games that do this like Wrath of the Righteous are built around automatic combat because it is so fucking boring otherwise.
It becomes a test of patience rather than planning and reactivity.

>>713682658
This is fucking pathetic, lmao. How could you be this bad at ds2 of all games

>>713702872
it's exactly how the games worked pre-souls switch doe, they weren't just faggy boss rushes they were adventure games where bosses were a rare surprise, lots of people liked that more, even demon's souls is actually closer to that than what dark souls onward is

>>713682658
Killing this guy with two great fireballs before he even has a chance to attack is very satisfying.

>>713679656
Believe it or not, there are more people playing games today, which allows for mega hits to happen if the stars align.

>>713677034 (OP)
Bloodborne does everything better pretty much but the most important thing are the animations and combat which make it feel a million times better to play
I love how the dodge+r1 in Bloodborne for a lot of weapons makes your character lunge forward

>>713682658
Remember this is the nerfed version.