Thread 713790067

Say what you want about Todd, he's right about one thing

Players don't want to have reactive immersive experiences in living fictional worlds, they want the convenience to 100% everything in one playthrough and move on to the next game

Normalfags ruined gaming.

>>713790191
based on OPs picrel, theyre talking about souls games.

this was an issue long before souls. Normalfags who ruined games making this argument against newer normalfags who ruined the already ruined games more.

Its sad to see a new generation, who ignored the last generation, make the same arguments that were already made knowing its all for nothing. Gaming will never 'heal'

>>713790067 (OP)
shitty ass samurai controller speakin motherfucker

People like depth in some genres like isomuttric sim, but pushing it in action games is a mistake

The 4 examples in your picture are not something I would bitch about, but I feel like there's a very fine line between those examples and examples that do in fact turn me into pic related, so I still feel targeted by your comic.

For example, open world slop immediately comes to mind. There's this gigantic map with reused content everywhere but if you keep exploring past the boring content eventually you'll find a cool unique area that was hidden. Fuck that and fuck you if you do that. Stop wasting my time.

>>713790409
Also another example that immediately comes to mind if we're talking Souls games here: Walls you hit to turn into corridors and there's no sign whatsoever they work like that. You're just supposed to guess or roll into them by happenstance. That shit is gay.

>>713790191
normalfags saved gaming in the 90s, how many paltformers do you need anyway lol

>>713790509
Normalfags didn't play games in the 90s.

>>713790448
>You're just supposed to guess or roll into them by happenstance. That shit is gay.
floor signs exist for a reason you stupid faggot
plus
>long standing tradition of fake walls in from soft games
>long standing tradition of fake walls in fantasy games
>literal level design hinting at it, a bare wall between two sconces... hmmm!
why is it illegal to have secrets in a game just because you people feel are entitled to everything all the time? Why cant we just have secrets?
You want pic related. Because how dare anyone miss CAHNTEHNT

>Finish Megaman X7
>Turns out the ending changes depending on who you kill Sigma with
>'neat i'll give it a try'
>go to load my old save
>game starts at the very first stage instead of at the very last
>turns out saving after beating sigma turns your file into a new game plus mode
>the game didn't state this at all

So then I watched the other two endings on youtube.

>>713790067 (OP)
This post smells like AI

>>713790067 (OP)
backlog tards and people that want to clear every game as fast as possible arent my target audience anyways

>>713790616
>why is it illegal to have secrets in a game just because you people feel are entitled to everything all the time?
Cause it is. I paid for the game. I spend my bandwidth and my time on it. I don't want cool shit to be hidden in ways that I could not possibly find. It's different if it's a hard enemy or a puzzle or something that you could believably find if you were attentive. Simple as.

>>713790067 (OP)
thank god mods are a thing to overwrite the dev's shitty design choices

>>713791942
Go watch a movie, faggot.

>>713790067 (OP)
If you have the compulsive need to 100% every game, you should probably get your head checked.
That's not normal behavior, that's mental illness

>>713790067 (OP)
something that grinds my gears.
80% of the game can be done in one playthrough.
the last 20 percent is seperated into 4 factions, and they are the best content in the game and you can only join one in each playthrough.
looking at you morrowind house and vampire quests.

>>713790067 (OP)
Normalfags believe they are owed the ending of the game if they buy it. They can't understand that some games are simply for a different target audience.

See this retard >>713791942 and his mentality.

If you knew what kind of games you enjoyed before you bought something and got annoyed it wasn't made for your monkey brain everyone would be happier, including you.

>>713790881
This. If anything I go back and replay old reliable more than I do playing new games just because of an imaginary backlog

>>713790396
>theyre talking about souls games.
I don't see it

>>713791942
Kek

>>713794415
theyre 1:1 arguments people made against souls, especially elden ring, when they launched.
>accessing content and needing new playthroughs
>dont have time
>cant respec (can in ER, and DS3-kind of, but BB, DS3 and ER all had this complaint at launch)
>quest complaints because youre missing X, Y or Z
>whole region missed (pretty much only souls does massive regions as secrets)
>need a guide argument - pretty much every aspect of souls gets this

its all stuff youd see on reddit or twatter at the time these games come out.

>>713790616
>why is it illegal to have secrets in a game just because you people feel are entitled to everything all the time?
Shareholders ask why are funds being spent on content N percent of players will never see. Over time this becomes the prevalent culture accepted both by developers and players alike.

>>713790409
>slop
Kill yourself

>>713790067 (OP)
Yeah, those people at the bottom are fags.
>Someone beats the game
>Then learns that they missed out "on the best weapon in the game"
>Immediately gets angry and goes "WOW, OKAY, SO I CAN MISS THE BEST WEAPON WOW OKAY"
>Even though they beat the game and didn't need it and could now try to get it in a second playthrough
Like as long as you beat a game why are you so obsessed with seeing 100% of it? There are tons of games I've beat and did not see everything. It was the norm back in the day. Final Fantasy 6-10 is a perfect example of this. It is filled with weird, esoteric shit that you could tell your friends at school and no one would believe you, but it would be true. And yet no one has trouble beating those games. Missing out on some spell or weapon is not the end of the world if you still can win.

The only thing that is bullshit is if you get locked into a bad ending because you missed some random bullshit. That just kind of ruins the story at the very end and leaves a sour taste in your mouth. If the ending of the game is the same for you and I, who cares if you got the Ultima Excalibur 2 Turbo Hyperfighting Rainbow Edition and I just used the 2nd or 3rd best sword?

>>713794679
Those are superficially similar but at the core souls games don't offer the type of gameplay described in the OP, which is more of an RPG style where you can join factions and be locked out of others, or where not having the right stats can mean there's stuff you naturally won't be able to do as opposed to just not being able to use certain weapons

>>713795123
true, the bottom guy is absolutely a match which is what I based off of. Im assuming whoever made the opicrel was taking shit they heard from typical souls discourse over the years, and then inserted their own commentary in the top frame, not necessarily as direct opposition.

>>713790396
>>713794679
>>713795328
The picture is about bethesda RPGs and trying to explain why they've been made progressively less interesting. It has nothing to do with souls, you obsessed faggot. The souls games have gotten increasingly LESS accessible to the normalfag dad gamer by just being increasingly difficult

>>713795328
That's true though souls games don't have gumption stats (yet)

>>713795465
whatever faggot.
maybe go cool off for a moment eh?

>>713794991
It is more of them wanting to get a platinum trophie/ 100% achievements.
They want a meta sense of completion, those people rarely care about play games outside of social clout

>>713792113
I dont wanna 100% the game i just wanna enjoy the shit I paid for without having to go on the wiki

>>713790067 (OP)
What does the "N" stand for?

>>713790067 (OP)
Or maybe those games for poorly made for that.
and drawing rage coming isn't proof of this.

>>713794991
I enjoy NOT 100%ing games
I play 65% of the game now and beat it
And then, if it was such a good game I feel the need to revisit it years later, I can play it and discover the other 45% I missed, making it feel new again.
New games often suck, but for me, I have a library of old gems that I missed 45% of that I can play at any time and enjoy.

>>713795962
N'wahs

>>713790576
>half the school playing resident evil and tekken weren't normalfags
ok then

>>713790067 (OP)
Normalfags say it was worth it to trade away all the fun shit for convenience and then you look at the things they use and none of the convenience is there, they've just been tricked into an endless loop of trading fun for convenience that doesn't even last more than a few years before it is sacrificed to save on production costs or sell some other gimmick.
All of the fun is gone and only the inconvenience remains.
>>713790448
They're practically always obvious and also almost always highlighted with offline messages.
>>713795465
Bethesda RPGs have gotten geometrically worse because Bethesda is bad. They're not worse because it's more convenient and accessible, they're worse because it saves development time and effort in a company that can't even get inverse kinematics into a VR port without community mods.

>>713796760
>they're worse because it saves development time
But the more complex Bethesda games were all made in 1-2 years, and all the shit simple ones are taking decades

there are people who enjoy roguelike games where you have to make do with what you have and have rare things that are hard to access, different beats for different people I suppose, it's probably just important to be upfront about it, if you make a game for the roguelike audience then advertise the game as such, if you make it for the audience who's watching movies on their second monitor and texting people on their phone then you can use the yellow paint on walls as an indicator that this will be a brainless game that will hold your hand through a linear casual game

>>713795836
actually now that I think about it, genshin has 3 out of 4 things in the top, but nobody complains, probably because the game itself is free and "missing content" is not particularly relevant if you haven't paid for the game anyways, you might pay for characters but you got the character so what's there to complain about, but genshin legit has multiple questlines where you have to talk to a specific random npc over and over every day for a week or more to unlock a questline that unlocks a special region, and unless you spend shitloads of money you'll have to make choices in what characters and weapons you get and live with your decisions, there's no "well actually I don't really like this character's gameplay so let me reroll" if you rolled for skirk and don't like her then there isn't shit you can do about that, you're stuck with her for the rest of the game, it doesn't have the faction stuff though where siding with one guild would lock you out from another guild, one thing that people are angry about though is that events only last a limited amount of time then get completely deleted, even though they often contain whole regions, important storylines and characters

>>713790067 (OP)
>artificially lock content in a game I paid $70 for
>le good because immersion
RPG fags are subhumans
only skill should prevent you from accessing content
RNG and forced stat spreadsheet attribution are not game mechanics that require any thought
fuck jrpgs
fuck wrpgs

>>713790067 (OP)
>living world
A meme, now and always. Nobody gives a shit that your NPCs go through the motions of a "life", they're not fucking real. When they're not interacting with the player either directly or indirectly, they may as well not fucking exist. Stop with the meme bullshit and make good games for once in your miserable life.

>>713797718
it does make it fun if you want to steal from them.
though it does end up boiling down to waiting a couple minutes for them to move to a different spot so you can sneak and steal.

>>713797648
the webm fails to demonstrate why the turn based system is bad

>>713796663
except they weren't. games didn't become mainstream until arguably the ps2 and even then it was still very much a nerd hobby for nerds. chad and stacy were too busy being popular to give a fuck about crash bandicoot.

>>713790396
tbf Souls and Elden Ring does all these things badly, especially NPC quest lines in Elden Ring

>>713797648
Being intelligent enough to navigate menus is a skill as well

>>713798812
>>except they weren't.
>noooo you didn't live what you lived
ok princess

>>713796848
Good management can elevate the potential scope and complexity of a project. Bad management can waste time on less than nothing.

>>713790067 (OP)
What if you didn't have to play the entire game over again? What if you could start a new character in the same world as your previous character and do the quests which you got locked out of on that character?

>>713795465
What Bethesda RPG ever had hidden areas and important narrative choices in quests?

>>713790067 (OP)
Isn't the first one that one quest from FF9? No one got mad it, nobody even knew it existed for like 20 years

>>713790067 (OP)
>Game devs make optional content, fine
>optional content is hidden for only the biggest fans to find or wikifags, fine
>OY PLAYER, YOU'RE MISSING THE ACHIEVEMENT FOR X ABOUT THE HIDDEN CONTENT
>ALSO IT'S REQUIRED FOR THE BEST ENDING
Fuck them, if you want to pretend something is hidden, actually keep it hidden and don't fucking make it mandatory

>>713799821
Is choosing to save or eat a priest important?
How about destroying daedric artifacts?

>>713797718
>Nobody gives a shit that your NPCs go through the motions of a "life"
I do

>>713799720
Do you get to keep the other characters gear and positions?
If not your argument is "Instead of starting over you have to start over"

>>713799953
Not really, they're arbitrary end of quest choices that are more of an exception than a rule. You think of RPGs with choices, you think more of something akin to DAO or New Vegas

>>713799935
>caring about cheevos

>>713790067 (OP)
all of that shit is fine except for not being able to re-spec
having to make a whole new character/save file just to try out different ways of playing and stuff is gay, I don't want to go through the whole first 15 hours of the game all over again

>>713790067 (OP)
>Also the devs:
>Doesn’t hint at any of these secrets
>Doesn’t tell you about the point system
>Gives only 1 save file so if you get locked out of that content you’re gonna have erase your data or buy a new game/console/both

>>713800104
Leveling up a new build is one of the fun parts of RPGs, replaying the same quests you did in the previous run is not. My solution would let you skip the boring parts while keeping the fun parts.
You could also run into your previous character in the game, ally with it or maybe even fight it if you chose opposing factions.

>>713790067 (OP)
Genuinely what I hated about Baldur's Gate 3.
You're never truly locked-in on continuing to the next area without a giant 'YOU ARE ADVANCING TO THE NEXT ACT' window.
Yes, you can kill characters. Yes, specific things only show up for specific builds.
I don't want a game where I can do everything and then backtrack to go down paths I previously ignored to discover shittily-written quests just so I can XP-maxx in a fucking D&D setting.
Fuck that game.

>>713800172
So killing Paarth type decisions?

>>713800472
You seem to think you speak for everyone. Restarting just to do a new quest line is the definition of tedium.
The do everything on one character is objectively the best design. If you believe the fighters guild and mages guild membership should not overlap you have the option of playing that way. If you do not care about arbitrary restrictions you can play as you see fit.
Giving the player options is always the best choice.

If there was actually a reward for doing it one way, that’d be fine. The problem is like New Vegas, they lock a bunch of shit away and there’s no reward for ever getting it, once you pick a faction the fucking game ends. Fucking dogshit. Stellar Blade on the other hand did it right. The story has a branch in it and you can choose the ending, but it changes a lot. SMTV lets you unlock the demons you defeated on certain routes which is also awesome. New Vegas does what, put you back to level 1? Fuck that faggot game 3 was better

>>713790067 (OP)
i will never understand the retarded obsession over dumb bullshit like acheivements or backlogs. it's like normalfags don't even really like video games or play them to have fun

>>713801252
No, that's an arbitrary end of quest choice. Absolutely nothing changes, it affects nothing, might as well not be there. Keep up.

>>713790067 (OP)
The problem here is that the games are just way too fucking long for the top image to be viable from a player's perspective.

Any RPG should be at maximum 120 hours long to do *everything*. And really that number is being very liberal. I'd prefer maybe 20-30 hours per run if you're really locking me out of major elements of the game for the sake of immersion.

>>713801693
Give me a specific example from NV then.

>>713801531
Doing everything on one character is dumb as hell, it's as anti-RPG as it gets. You might as well be playing an action game without character progression if you're eventually gonna become a master at everything anyway. Real RPGs should have meaningful choices and different characters that specialize in different things, the game should lock you out of questlines where it makes sense.
Of course this doesn't come without drawbacks like the tedium of replaying the game from scratch multiple times to see what you missed. Not having to do that would be great.

>>713800682
>just so I can XP-maxx
oh ok, so your opinion doesn't matter then

>>713799189
You're not even intelligent enough to not conflate skill and intelligence.

good idea
>adding hard to reach content that only a small fraction of the playerbase will access
bad idea
>wasting devtime on missable content a large majority of the playerbase will be locked out of

>>713802185
So play it the way you feel is proper. That design gives you that option.
Stop caring about other people playing it wrong.

>>713802537
The design is lazy and uninspired, all you're left with is a bunch of isolated MMO quests that dont affect the world in any meaningful way. My solution is better.

I'm not interested in NG+ choices unless the game gives me enough reason to do so
In my case I just drop it after I complete it and move on, its not like I'm going to lose sleep over it and mald

>>713801984
The entire bloody game. I mentioned DAO too, you know? I'll let you in on a little secret: people like *knowing* and *thinking* their choices have an impact, however small it might be. Choice and consequence can be only (mostly) enjoyed if the player:
>knows that they are making a choice
>is aware that there are consequences
If the player cannot realize that they should make a legit choice and/or they feel like they get cheated out from a consequence then the process breaks. That includes a game making clear from the get go it's not choice heavy, like Skyrim. In that sense it's less how it unfolds in the game proper (like the slaves in NV making the trek to the memorial vs the family teleporting to the refugee camp) but more about the narrative buildup and presentation. In NV 95% of choices are laid out and made accessible, every consequence is presented and accounted for . You KNOW that you are making a choice. You are AWARE that there are consequences. You never feel like "Is that all?" The end sliders are really the best example of how this works out in practice: you complete a quest in a certain way (knowledge of choice) then watch a still movie about what happens (aware of consequences).

>>713801984
>>713803080
"Is that all?" is Bethesda handling choice and consequence in a nutshell. You can leave the Party Snacks quest hanging in your journal and nothing changes because the Blades are not actual characters. They don't connect to any other part of the game world, their quests don't matter. The focus of TES has always been in building up your character and dungeon delving, not important narrative choices that change the impact of the world and your relation to it. You can singlehandedly save the nation and nobody gives a single shit you're the Dragonborn. Sparing Erandur instead of obtaining the Skull of Corruption results in the former exorcising the temple, restoring it in Mara's name and becoming a member of the community in Dawnstar? That's a choice and a consequence. Sparing Erandur instead of obtaining the Skull of Corruption results in him standing still at the inn for the rest of time waiting for you to issue a command so he can become a generic NPC companion? That's a nothingburger people will rightfully forget about.

>>713796663
kids arent normalfags

>>713803080
I asked for a specific example. In that wall of text you did not give one?
I wonder why. It is almost as if you knew not a single quest from NV could live up to the standards you set.

Your options are to provide a quest I can hold to your standards or show how butthurt you are for being called out for your bullshit.

Your move punk.

>>713801558
>t. spastic adhd zoomer

>>713801558
>they lock a bunch of shit away and there’s no reward for ever getting it, once you pick a faction the fucking game ends.

its quite apparent you haven't played the game because this doesn't make any sense rajeesh

>>713799189
fatasses must be geniuses

>>713792113
What if I genuinely just find it fun to do that?

>>713804334
Sorry anon. The anon is the lord high Master of fun. He had multiple degrees in fun from the college of fun things.

You are wrong and he is right. Now go have fun in the approved manner.

>>713803080
>The entire bloody
oh it's retarded

>>713804334
Is it still compulsive?

>>713804602
That was apparent from the get go.

>>713803390
>>713804602
Concession accepted

Locking players out of content unless the game is designed for maximum replayability is retarded.

>>713790067 (OP)
>move on to the next game
Modern game...s? Plural???

>>713790396
>theyre talking about souls games.
How if there is absolutely nothing to do in souls games beyond hitting the next boss?

>>713790067 (OP)
the guy on the bottom is me and thats a good thing

>>713804817
Still can't find a NV quest that lives up to your standard in the wiki I see.
Get fucked punk. Your mouth wrote checks your ass couldn't cash.

>>713803080
you do realize your talking to braindead zoomoids who must be "rewarded" for choicest instead of play the fucking video game and getting outcome they want right? Many lf them lack the attention span they won't even your post. Literal golems

>>713803140
its why skyrim will forever be dogshit and only mods can save it

>>713805226
Try finding a quest in NV that lives up to anons standards.
Bro is struggling right now and could use more than words of encouragement. Between the two of you you should be able to come up with one.

Alternatively you could get oddly angry about an argument you have no stake in.

>>713790067 (OP)
I think Dark Souls 2 captured that fantasy immerson what Bethesda failed to. Idk why tho.

>>713790067 (OP)
>NOOOOO!!! I MUST LOCK CONTENT BEHIND RANDOM ARBITRARY SHIT!!! I MUST MAKE IT SO THE PLAYER CAN GIMP HIS BUILD IF HE DOESN'T USE A GUIDE!!! YOU NEED TO READ THE WIKI IF YOU WANNA HAVE FUN AND GET THE GOOD ENDING!!!

>>713790067 (OP)
Not my fault players are niggers.

>>713805392
Now this is bait.

>>713790067 (OP)
>wordswordswords
Anyone actually read this?

>>713805751
yes some of us can read rajeesh

>>713790067 (OP)
I don't get the "I don't have time" shit people always say. If you don't have time to ever play video games why did you buy it? And if you do have time but only a small amount of time then just play the game for 2 days instead of 1 day? If all you want is the game to be over and done with then put the thing down, you clearly aren't having fun.

>>713805941
> Why aren't video games the singular focus of your lives.
Some of us are grown ups.

>>713805941
You don't understand chud I'm A 35 hear old step dad of three and I work full time, I only get 2 hours of game time a week

>>713806210
Good, you should be excited the game world is reactive and full of content.

>>713806104
The game will be here after you are done with your oh-so-important life shit. Or just you know don't buy childrens toys if you are so fucking above them retard.

>>713806261
No! Every game must be 8 hours long and a linear movie game I can play on easy mode and beat over the course of a few months!

>>713806271
Obvious life advice from a 15 year old is obvious.

You are going to be shocked when you find out life isn't all about tendies and video games.
I do wish you well though kiddo.

>>713802185
>Doing everything on one character is dumb as hell, it's as anti-RPG as it gets.
Every single foundational RPG until what, like the late90s? Let you do everything on one character.

How in the world is it "Anti-RPG" when the games that codified the genre let you do it?

>>713790191
normalfags weren't the ones whining about vampire attacks or claw "puzzles" in skyrim
it was /v/edditors on this board

Have those two chucklefucks come up with a NV quest yet?

>>713806547
Wagie wagie in a cagie

>>713806629
About as weak a response as you'd expect from a 15 year old.
Is your mom hot?

>>713806547
Ah so you're a baiting retard who just wants to console war. Plenty of Switch2 threads to go talk about your step dad status and obsession with childrens toys you hate.

>>713805534
>YOU NEED TO READ THE WIKI IF YOU WANNA HAVE FUN
It's an RPG. Deal with your choices and commit to them.
> AND GET THE GOOD ENDING!!!
Do not minmax and pick better.

>>713806629
> I bet you can afford a house and cars can't you? Fucking loser.
Ya got me there kiddo. Guilty as charged.

I'm a NEET with infinite time to waste on video games and I feel the same way as GamerDads™...

I want to experience everything in one playthrough, not because I am pressed for time and busy, but simply because I don't want to play through a 100 hour game multiple times just to see slightly altered dialogue trees or a different ending cutscene.

>>713806739
How is you being a retard relate to consoles?

>>713806589
RPGs stem from tabletop RPGs jackass, those are party based with each character having their own role and so were most of the computer games that came out afterwards

>>713806862
Sounds like RPGs aren't a genre for you then.

>>713806912
Then what happened when tech improved?
Correct they were no longer restrained by limitations so they improved the genre.

>>713790067 (OP)
>this area is a secret reward for exploring
More like "this area is fully documented online three days before launch day" and if you have ever so much as glanced at something related to the franchise, the analytics algo overlord will make sure to put the spoilers at the top of the front page of youtube for you and there'll be 15 threads about it on /v/'s catalog at all times for a month.

>>713807125
What happened? They made great games like Baldur's Gate 1/2/3

>>713807232
1 and 2 were made during the time of technical limitations.
BG3 did fine enough but is no where near the current giants of the RPG genre. It didn't even beat the upper tier of RPGs.

>>713790616
>floor signs
But floor signs are online shit. I like secrets but your reply is stupid.

>>713805521
I don't know what kind of quest your expecting me to find because that's not the argument that's being made. Quests/stories not having any consequence or contributing to an idea of what the player wants to see in terms of outcome are inherently dogshit because it's almost like we play video games so that we can feel in control. Gabe Newell talks about this in the hl1 doc calling it a "narcissistic injury" when the game decides not to react to player choice as he was shitting all over realism. The fact that parthannax death having no bearing on the world or anything especailly as he was established as this great elder dragon to the dragonborn is shit and might as well not be an option. NV is beloved because you can make light to heavy choice that effects the world and it can be tied to the build of your character almost like its an actuall rpg game and not some bethesda shitslop where you're given everything with no effort

>>713807409
Man you must be underage as fuck

>>713790067 (OP)
>and move on to the next game
nigger people are still playing skyrim 20 years later

>>713807464
You show up in the middle of a conversation about finding a quest in NV that met anons standards and decide it isn't about that.
Looks likes anons backup is a helmet wearing window licker.

That or are you public education anon? If so you legitimately could have been confused by people using words correctly.

>>713807606
>tfw 2011 was 20 years ago
Fuck man where'd the time go.

>>713807515
When were BG 1 and 2 made? The height of the dark age of gaming.

>>713807515
Damn, great rebuttal from the mature adult.

>>713790448
>He doesn't play online
You only have yourself to blame

>>713790067 (OP)
so you just redrew the comic you made about using internet guides but didn't learn anything about overusing wrinkles?

>>713807771
>Provides no counter argument
>throws insults instead
k.

>>713809065
> Other than the counter argument you provided you provided no counter argument.

Public education anon it is you isn't it?

>>713790067 (OP)
Repetition based tasks and mutually exclusive factions/builds have nothing in common and pretending they're the same shit is beyond retarded.

>>713801531
>you have the option of playing that way
More choice and freedom is not always better. In a lot of things, more choice and freedom usually leads to more stress and more mental overhead, and/or it leads to a lowest common denominator (within your own interests, not between people) solution.
Imagine your are invited to a big gathering like a party. It's a once in your lifetime opportunity to enjoy food that you will deem 10/10, so don't let it go to waste. The host now has two models: either you the guest can propose your own dish that you will be served, or you can be given the choice between 3 fantastic dishes chefs came up with that you have never tasted yourself. Now, what do you think you would ultimately enjoy more, being restricted and within that restricted set being given leeway, or having complete freedom?

>>713790067 (OP)
>Players don't want to have reactive immersive experiences in living fictional worlds
How would toddler know? All his games are unimmersive garbage.

>>713791942
If you could find it so easily, it wouldn't be as cool. If Ash Lake in dark souls or the Weird route in DR were easy to find, they wouldn't capture the imagination the way they do

>>713810887
There is an anon who enjoys the strong hand of the dev on the back of their head as they are guided to the fun place.

>>713810887
> You must obey the rules of the party I am holding because it is my party.
I wouldn't go to your shitty party.
I would go to a party that let me eat all the dishes at my leisure.

>>713790067 (OP)
Dark age of Camelot was the last great MMO that didn't confoooorm to OP post
>Maps just existed, they wern't made with the idea of being convenient player lanes
>Grinding required active social cooperation between groups, guilds and even realms as a whole
>Tons of zones unapologetically deadly for solo players added mystery and charm to the game and encouraged exploration
>Level 65 raid tier epic mob planted in a spot in a level 35 map was fair game. Dying costed you exp and gold, players were kept on their toes
>No instanceniggers (this kills MMO's btw). Dungeons were zones like everywhere else - in a given dungeon you would run into 7-8 different groups across all levels of it, with only the toughest of mofos being actually able to dive all the way down.
>Reaching max level wasn't "finally now the game starts" retardation - it was the end of your coming of age story. You'd be left with tales to tell about it for weeks as you joined the ranks of veterans new players'd look up to

>>713795834
Are these "people" the same ones who get mad about games on Steme not having achievements?

Where do dumbfucks like op come from? Twatter? gcj? Or worse, /v/?

>>713812294
All of those.

>>713812294
>come from
They are grown here organically nowadays, partner.

>>713791942
You didn't buy the ending, you didn't buy the easter eggs, you bought the game., and a game comes with rules.

>>713790067 (OP)
The fantasy is that devs weren't just hiding content behind a bunch of obtuse conditions in order to sell strategy guides.

>>713796760
The ultimate convenience is always not having to play the game at all anymore.

>>713814192
The fantasy is that they were when internet was in its infancy.

Ever since I fell out of love with gaming and think 97% of it is a complete waste of time with no focus on 100%ing games at all anymore, all I want now is immersive experiences in fictional worlds.

I've mostly been playing old games I've never played so I have no nostalgia for them, but they really don't make 'em like they used to. Soul Reaver being the most recent, FUCK what a game with incredible world building. I replayed Fable before that and while a goofy game, also had really soulful world building.

>>713790576
What kind of delusion is this. My local arcade was filled all day every day. Half the kids owned some kind of console by the end of 90's early 00's

>>713808962
W-what are the consequences

>>713790067 (OP)
Bethesdrones are the ones that caused this being the biggest fucking glue eaters that will eat slop and cry about anything they can’t immediately solve or figure out. They will go rabid in order to defend Todd and all the other bullshit. It’s amazing how they unwittingly presented themselves as a buttmad retards that need shit to be dumbed down to toddler levels in order to play the game.

>>713809981
>Public education anon it is you isn't it?
>ESL

>>713801531
LMAO this is the kind of shit thinking that led to the casualization and ultimately fucking embarassing game that is monster hunter wilds. Just admit your a normalfag who needs to be given everything from the start and handheld through the game

tl;dr:
>Op is an underage with a shitty comic who believes that making choices in games is le bad and would rather be guided with quest markers that xe/xer is probably not old enough to play anyway

>>713795534
>gets btfo with his shitty nonsensical comic
>W..whatever faggot.

>>713821759
OP is in favor of game choices, you need to learn to read post irony

>>713821981
>OP is in favor of game choices, you need to learn to read post irony
>learn to read post irony
So basically read what is essentially a compensation for not being able to have a genuine opinion or reaction to something and stating it upfront? I'm good, thanks.

>>713822368
>So basically read what is essentially a compensation for not being able to have a genuine opinion or reaction to something and stating it upfront?
No, stating it up front means it'll get no engagement in current day, everything needs to be structured like engagement bait for ADD audiences

>>713791942
This is the kind of normalfaggotry that gave us power Armour at the very beginning fallout 4. Is this faggot serious?

Getting locked out of content is problematic because you have to start from scratch and do everything over again to see alternate paths, it's a huge waste of time. I think TES game saves should be like Minecraft servers, instead of creating a new world every time you create a new character you instead inhabit a shared world with all your previously played characters. The quests and world has already been shaped by your previous runs so instead of repeating everything you do the things that your previous characters haven't done leading to new undiscovered content making each run feel fresh. The game could even be designed in such a way that your previous character becomes a villain because your choices made him a leader for an opposing faction.

>>713790067 (OP)
So, what is this retarded shit where fags like OP are obsessed with backlogs? Is it a race to gloat on /v/ on how many games you've played? If they enjoyed a video game enough to be replayed than replay it especially when you get to see content you didn't notice from before or a take a different path. Devs are not beholden to give you every single experience in a game without some choice

>>713824670
>I think TES game saves should be like Minecraft servers,

>>713824670
>Getting locked out of content is problematic because you have to start from scratch and do everything over again to see alternate paths
and?

>>713790509
You probably weren't even alive

>>713825420
What's wrong with that? Try separating the function from the label and maybe you'll get it.
>>713825549
For some people it isn't a problem but it is for most people, it's overly repetitive and boring with very little payoff. If the game can be designed in a way that eliminates the need to sit through a bunch of content you've already played then that would be preferable.

>>713825945
I'm sorry most game developer are incapable of understanding the concept of chapter select.

>>713791942
rofl if this isn’t a troll then you are a giga faggot

>>713790067 (OP)
I can understand the frustration with the point system since if you are a noobie and accidentally make a shit build it could ruin your playthrough.

>>713826034
It isn't enough, a choice you made at the beginning of the game could cascade throughout the chapters and change everything meaning you'll have to play through the whole thing again to get everything. I'm talking about eliminating the need to play through content you've already played, what's so bad about that? Having an RPG where your new characters inhabit the same world as your previous characters, continuing the story instead of starting over would be groundbreaking and cool.
If you want to play through everything over again you could do that if you create a new world.

>>713825945
>For some people it isn't a problem but it is for most people, it's overly repetitive and boring with very little payoff
For normalfags that is
>If the game can be designed in a way that eliminates the need to sit through a bunch of content you've already played then that would be preferable.
I agree with this. That's why I don't play bethesdashit games because they have me sit through their 1 hour movie intro every time I want to play which why I prefer games like NV because doc Mitchel is like 10 minutes tops and your free to go where ever. You don't even need to help goodsprings

>>713801558
Did you actually play NV? I don’t think you did.

>>713803390
He gave one of the best arguments I’ve seen on this site. It’s legitimately something I’ve struggled to explain and he did it in a pretty concise manner considering the massive scope of the issue. You can change the goalposts all you want, his point will still stand. Rest and meditate on what you’ve learned, retard

>>713805148
>mind immediately goes to faggotry
pottery

>>713803390
He gave you an example you spastic retard, it was the entire game and he's right. The majority of the game does not prevent you from knowing what the consequences of your actions are and knowing what might or will happen is part of the fun like purposely killing off all factions to side with yes man or lying to Janet that she will totally not get blown the fuck up by the boomers if she enters their territory without warning. You're a clear case of why normalfags should be gate kept from video games

Players are pussies. They want bad endings then whine. They want consequences but cheat so they don't suffer them. Give them 15 races and 25 classes to play and they play a human paladin. Give them interesting build ideas and they just go for a plain DPS. Make evil routes and less than 10% will even bother. Give them weird dating options and they pick whatever goth bitch treats them like garbage. Devs shouldn't listen to players.

>>713827839
Because they know if they make the wrong choices they'll have to spend another 50-100 hours replaying the damn thing to correct it. Maybe I wanted to play a green little thieving midget dude but I might get sick of it half way through the game and start over making me waste 20-40 hours getting back to the point where I left off, Fuck that. I'm playing a human Paladin just to be safe.
These games are expecting way too much from players, they have to respect the player's time.

>>713828595
>Because they know if they make the wrong choices they'll have to spend another 50-100 hours replaying the damn thing to correct it.
name the game

>>713790409
You will never understand what it's like to discover the black city all on your own in Kenshi.

>>713828730
You first

>>713790067 (OP)
It's the Steam sale, Anons, and I recently added a secret three-stage bonus level with a new enemy type and a troublesome new item to The Girl Who Kicked a Rabbit. Reaching the level is obtuse and doesn't respect your time, and neither does the level. But you know what? I think it's the best level yet.

>>713828595
>maybe I wanted to play a green little thieving midget dude but I might get sick of it half way through the game and start over making me waste 20-40 hours

That's literally not the devs problem if you change your mind half-way through the game and have to restart it. I don't know what to tell you but it sounds like you don't really like crpgs and rpgs then. In d&d you can't just change your entire character on a whim just because you don't enjoy it now when you enjoyed it before. Being restricted based on your personal choices is literally what makes an rpg an rpg.

>>713828998
You made the claim faggot, whats the game or are you making up bullshit.

If it's cartoonishly convoluted to access something in your game, regardless of how secret you "intend" on it being, you've failed as a game developer.
We've already learned this lesson from Braid in fucking 2008.
Literally everyone knows it as the shitty game where Jon Blows himself
There ain't no point to the game

>>713790616
>floor signs exist for a reason you stupid faggot
>relying on the playerbase to do your fucking job is good, actually
Where you dropped on your fucking head as a child? Or are you just Todd in disguise?

>>713824709
I always am reminded of an old screenshot of a steam forum fag who bemoaned having to add another damn game to his million-mile backlog, and treats playing games as more of a chore or obligation than having any fun.
I dunno where or who that asshole is, but I sure am glad I ain't him.

>>713829606
> In d&d you can't just change your entire character on a whim just because you don't enjoy it
You absolutely could, you just kill off your character and jump into the story on a different character. This is a good point actually, tabletop games are great because anything can change on a whim. Video games are static and rely on world, rigid quest lines and such, changing things around is difficult unless you cheat/mod your games. There's no reason why developers can't be more lenient with player choices, like changing your race/class half way through the game, why not?
>>713829718
It's a hypothetical strawman game just like the one I'm replying to is talking about. I can tell we both have a lot of experience with RPGs so we're on the same page, you're not.

>>713790067 (OP)
For me it's "Completely hidden exit to secret level whose location is either barely hinted at or not at all." You should want players to find this shit, not put them on the same obscurity level as a mega health pack behind an unsignaled invisible wall.

>>713827752
Asks for a SPECIFIC quest that met anons own standards from NV.
Got a wall of text that did not include an example of a quest that met anons standards.

You show up and claim the post did in fact show a quest that met anons standards because he included the whole game which had quests included in the game.

It seems the public education problem is reaching epidemic level.

If the brain trust opposing me put their heads together it would sound like a bowling alley.

I didn't notice yet another anon happened by. What luck yet again for anon.
>>713827184

Anon claimed I did not offer quests that showed impactful choices in Skyrim. He claimed NV did. For clarification I asked for a specific quest from NV that showed what he would consider an impact full choice.
He has ,thus far, unable to find one.

Now that he has back up perhaps you could find a specific quest with impactful choices in NV.
The metric anon set is it has to be more impactful than killing Paarth or the quest you either eat or save a priest.

Maybe his new friends can help him out and find a quest from NV that meets the standards anon set.

Doubtful you can but you are welcome to try.

Don't worry about trying to save anon. He was a moron.
If you fail the challenge, and you will, your options are to slink away tail between your legs or cry about being called out for being dumbasses.

>>713830339
You mean it's not the 90s anymore when you were expected to play the same game for a year straight while walking around pressing spacebar against every single wall?

>>713829606
I am glad Bethesda made adjusting on the fly easy in TES games.
I wish they were all as forgiving as Morrowind. Bring back the training system you had back then. The 5 times per level thing is nonsense.

>>713830401
You were given an example that was explained to thoroughly yet you denied because you're an pretentious under aged faggot
>If the brain trust opposing me put their heads together it would sound like a bowling alley.
What the fuck? Is this supposed to be a coherent sentence?

>>713831774
Which specific quest was chosen?

>>713827839
>Give them 15 races and 25 classes to play and they play a human paladin
Based

>>713831774
> Was this supposed to be coherent?
For most it is. Unfortunately we have a few victims of the public education system.

>>713829859
OH, and also you may end up like Edmund McMillen when he drastically understimated how many pieces of The Lost's puzzle people would need to solve it and had a whole multi year long fit about people "datamining" it.

>>713831863
Maybe they should try to learn what the audience wants and stop wasting time on extraneous fluff.

>>713824670
>NOOOOOO I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT HAVE CONSEQUENCE IN A VIDEO GAME NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>713831841
see
>>713803080

>>713790409
>Stop wasting my time
Why are you posting on 4chan if this is your stance?

>>713832294
Didn't see a quest name in the wall of text.
Which quest are you talking about?
I am just trying to find a quest in NV more impactful than killing Paarth. That or saving or eating a priest.

Perhaps if you looked up what "specific" meant it would help you understand what I asked from anon.

>>713832164
The decisions can have more consequence than ever with such a system, did you even read the post?

>>713790067 (OP)
>Players don't want to have reactive immersive experiences in living fictional worlds, they want the convenience to 100% everything in one playthrough and move on to the next game
Correction capeshit movie game sloppers want everything in one playthrough while majority of people go and play baldurs gate 3 multiple playthroughs

>>713832551
see
>>713803080

>>713832619
Most people haven't even beat the game once lmfao

>>713790616
You do realize OP is probably on their le epic playthrough of oblivion remastered. Those kind of fags don't have the capacity or attention to go out and search for secrets. Probably explains why older games filter them so hard

>>713832698
So you can't find a quest that meets anons standards either.
Not surprising since it does not exist.

My guess is you just keep quoting the same post because you know you have no real response and you don't like losing so you are throwing a tantrum.

Prove me wrong. You can't because I am not.

>>713790067 (OP)
100%ers should and deserve to suffer. Stop turning games into checklists where you have to experience every little morsel of content. If you find a section of the content unenjoyable, stop engaging with it.

>>713832849
The game has been out since july of 2024 what are you talking about.

>>713833379
He means a statistic majority of people haven't been fucked to actually finish playing through the game.

Punks getting routed.

>>713790067 (OP)
No I don't

>>713833112
>>713803080

>>713833760
It takes a big man to openly admit defeat. You have my respect for doing that.

>>713834029
see
>>713803080

>>713834057
Are you French? You only need to surrender once.
If you have a compulsive need to show your belly to the alpha of the pack you may stop.
No need to engage in humiliation rituals for me.

>>713790067 (OP)
I prefer altering the game based on player choices rather than completely locking people out of locations and scenarios. You can still do that part of the game, but how you have to approach it and the consequences for completing it will be different.

everyone who defends secrets that you can only find by random chance would complain if a game had a gacha mechanic where the characters or weapons or whatever you can use in a given playthrough were randomized even though it's fundamentally the same thing. I'm not talking about actual gacha where you have to pay for shit, but like if you want to play as the paladin class there's only a 1% chance that it shows up in the class change menu. also you don't change classes until 4 hours into the game so you can't just restart until the one you want shows up.

>>713790067 (OP)
"The Reality" is objectively correct. Excessive amounts of arbitrarily hidden secrets may seem cool to literal children who only experience games through Youtube, but if the majority of people actually playing the game (blind) won't get to see it, the developer is wasting his time and resources.
>but videogames must be like real life and full of missed opportunities!!
Only dumbasses idealize realism in videogames. Nobody plays games to experience real life, just like nobody wants to play the same game 60+ hour RPG 5 times because a few hours of content is locked behind an arbitrary choice.

>>713790067 (OP)
Players don't want to have reactive immersive experiences in living fictional worlds, they want the convenience to 100% everything in one playthrough and move on to the next game
says you faggotron

>>713834913
Ideally, you want to have minor, but rewarding little secrets for people to play your game perhaps a second time down the line.
Nothing that could potentially cripple a player for missing.

>>713834913
If the game is great and the content is hidden by story choices this is would be fine because I don't go into a talltale walking dead game expecting to make everyone happy with my decisions in a zombie apocalypse . Same with a persona game and I think OP is incorrect in putting a blanket statement that all content should be done 100% in one play through because of this.

I want short games that respect my time and if you don't like it you can suck my dick
Make a fucking sequel instead of padding out playtime with tedious fetch quests

>>713835465
>All bethesdshit games die immediately

>>713835465
Then play short games that respect your time.
If you play a long game that doesn't respect your time it isn't the games fault you are unhappy.

>>713835465
I want long games that respect my wallet

>>713835810
>If you play a long game that doesn't respect your time it isn't the games fault you are unhappy.
This one post kills op and faggots like him

>>713835810
TRVTH NVKE

>>713790067 (OP)
when did Todd say this?

>>713790067 (OP)
>ARGH! I HAVE NO LEGS AND I HAVE TO TAKE A SHIT! FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!

>>713828595
>>713835810

>>713836565
Game doesn't have to be short to respect the player's time, just don't expect the average player to spend 300 hours to experience it all.

>>713835810
>Then play short games that respect your time
Devs who pad out their games with tedious bullshit and unlock treadmills are the vast majority

>>713835810
>>713836225
>You're not allowed to criticize games that do stupid things, actually it's your fault for playing them in the first place

>>713836701
Then don't play the game and go pick up a different one if you don't like it? You do realize that there are people who enjoy putting 300 hours into an experience because they may in fact enjoy right?? Rarely is there a game outside of gacha or f2p/gaas that requires 300 hours of playtime

>>713836841
Then don't play them. There is nothing forcing you to eat something just because it is on the plate.

If you are mad not every dev is focused on making games just for you then get over yourself. Just play games you like and you will be much happier.

>>713790067 (OP)
I'm starting to hate the word content.

>>713836985
>>it's your fault for playing them in the first place
unironically yes, you do have the free will not to play those long games in the first place anon. I do not know how difficult it is for you to understand

>>713836985
> Doesn't like certain types of games.
> Plays a game they know they won't like.
> Doesn't enjoy it.
> How could this happen to me?

If you are bound and determined to be a victim then be the victim.

Or
You could just go play games you like.

>>713790396
guy who has only played souls games:
>wow this sounds just like the souls games

>>713837301
>unironically yes, you do have the f
You CANNOT reasonably expect everyone to have encyclopedic knowledge of games in the first place.
You are literally suggesting making games people only watch on YouTube or Twitch.

>>713837085
>nooo youre not allowed to complain that every other game is an ubisoft tower open world postman simulator
videogames suck because of consoomers like you

>>713837029
If you could experience the same amount of things in 60 hours as you would in 300 hours wouldn't that be preferable? That's the kind of shit I'm talking about, story-heavy RPGs that expect you to replay the 60 hours multiple times to see all the shit are wasting their time cramming all that stuff in just to appease a handful of autistmos.

>>713790067 (OP)
Well, yeah. I've never played a long RPG game more than once. I'm not starting over after 500 hours.

>>713837406
It's called actually going on the internet finding out what the game is and what to expect? If you cannot do the simple amount of research about a game you are going to buy and play then maybe video games are not for you

>>713837669
>Um actually it's completely reasonable for you to look up that touching the blue ploobus will irredeemably cripple you for the rest of the playthrough and is intended for
No

>>713790067 (OP)
>art vs consumable sloppa
>new vegas vs skyrim

>>713836985
You CAN criticize, anon. The game is going to stay the same, though.

>>713837420
> Not every game is catered to me. The industry is shit.
There there. Need a hug?

>>713790616
NOOO I WASN'T SMART ENOUGH TO FIND THE CONTENT ON MY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH
IT'S ALL BULLSHIT!! FFFUUUCCCKKK YOU FROM SOFFTTWWAARRREE!!

>>713837761
Then its not the devs or anybody else's problem that you're functionally retarded and don't have the mental capacity to look up what a game will be about or a guide before playing it. People in the past used phyiscal guides in case they were stuck and had no problems playing the games with them.

>>713837937
>art

>>713837406
With tastes as specific as yours it would make sense for you to do some research.

>>713837361
kek + verifiably true

>>713838124
umm actually new vegas is the smarter game because arcade gannon quips at me the whole time

>game is 100+ hours long first playthrough
>if you don't pull the talking jar person out of the ground 3 times or talk to him in 3 separate spots before progressing too far into the game you're locked out of the best talisman in the game and have to spend another 40ish hours playing through it again while meticulously following a wiki guide to get it
'ate this shit

>>713838057
>He thinks the industry isn't shit

>>713838306
You don't need that talisman to beat the game and enjoy yourself

>>713838479
He needs that 100% to feel satisfied, anon. It's a job for him, not a game.

>>713838317
> My mom told me I was the most important person in the world.
Your mom lied to you.

>>713838479
>>713838589
I need that talisman to fuck people in invasions, gimping yourself by not having it isn't fun, invasions are hard enough with it.

>>713838589
Damn. I bet he doesn't even realize he is enjoying it wrong. Poor guy.

>>713837505
First off what and where are these games that require you to dump 300 hours to finish? Are you talking about doing side quests and secret items for a 100%? If so then that is literally not the devs problem as that is a personal choice because many of the things to 100% majority of the time don't relate to the main quest and can be purely cosmetic or be for the player to explore more of their favorite game. It just sounds a bit hyperbolic

>That's the kind of shit I'm talking about, story-heavy RPGs that expect you to replay the 60 hours multiple times to see all the shit are wasting their time cramming all that stuff in just to appease a handful of autistmos.
Yeah so? It's almost like these games are made for autists. And by the way do you sperg out on games like persona or the walking dead because they require you to make permanent choices that effect the outcome of the game play?

>>713790067 (OP)
>Good design
The game has multiple routes or multiple ways to go about doing things, like quests. This means you can't by design see everything in the game in one go, but each playthrough is appreciably different and lets you interact with game mechanics and quests in different ways.

>Shit design for retards
The game is 99% railroaded with a couple of small missables or minor interactions that lead to a true end that you'd likely need to read a guide about ahead of time to know not to miss, and the retarded devs think shit like this somehow creates mystery or a sense of adventure. Bonus points if the game is really long so replaying the game is a slog.

>>713790067 (OP)
>they want the convenience to 100% everything in one playthrough and move on to the next game
nah some of us are not jeet shitsloppers and actually like to play video games instead of trying to turn it into a second job

>>713838838
If you play through a 60 hour game 5 times that's 300 hours.
>do you sperg out on games like persona or the walking dead
I don't play those games

>>713839052
Forced replay is good design? Is this 1990?

>>713839219
>Forced replay is good design?
Can you read English?

>>713790067 (OP)
100%ers are literally subhuman. I can't imagine not sitting down and enjoying a video game because you love it and instead try to do every single thing and move on to the next game to do the same thing and not think once about what you liked about it. Glad most games make them seethe and cope

I just started playing Nier Automata this week and bunch of my quests got locked out because one of them happened to be in the same area as a main quest and I thought hey, might as well do this one too since I'm here. That's a little annoying, particularly since I took it upon myself to go hardmode on my first playthrough and I've ensured through a number of very spongy fights where I've had to avoid practically all damage because stuff oneshots you despite not being on the official "everything oneshots you" difficulty.

>>713790067 (OP)
>Players don't want to have reactive immersive experiences in living fictional worlds,
only you are saying this tranny.

>>713790067 (OP)
Accessibility isn't necessarily tied to risk-reward. 100% not missable should be the aim of each dev. There should be a plan b to get a certain item or unlock route.

>open random chest in a dungeon
>lose out on best equipment in the game

>>713840545
Name 3 games and don't say FFXII.

>>713790067 (OP)
>Players don't want to have reactive immersive experiences in living fictional worlds, they want the convenience to 100% everything in one playthrough and move on to the next game
what a fucking retarded statement

>>713797648
not my problem your too retarded to play them

>>713790067 (OP)
>top
2/4 pretentious bullshit, hidden areas are fair if they're not behind some bullshit arcane requirements like the NPC shit here
>bottom
faggot

>>713790067 (OP)
The top scenario is fine, ideal actually. Just don't over do it and do FNAF tier obtuse lore drops and lock the player out of the secret canon ending when the game take 20-30 hours and you can screw yourself out of the ending 3 hours in. Missable secrets for small, fun interactions are fine for early and mid game stuff. Also stop putting secret giganigga +10 super weapons after a hard boss and then give me nothing to do with them. I want a harder boss that will wipe the floor with you if you even consider using anything but the secret weapon

>>713797648
i used to think like you but then i fought the bull gfs in ff8

>>713790067 (OP)
Not being allowed to respec is pretty dumb, build and gameplay wise.
You should have a separate mechanic for handling things like diplomacy and such, but your actual stats should always be respecable. Even if it's something limited like for example larvas in Elden Ring.
Also the issue with always having a hidden region is that it's only fun the first few times. I think at this point everyone's become conditioned to expect it ever since Dark Souls did Ashen Lake. That was the big tipping point in my opinion. Now every game always seems to have you explore as a prerequisite.

I'm old enough to remember when EVERY game had some bullshit secret content that was unreasonable to achieve for most people unless that game was your primary hobby. Fucking zoomers and even a lot of late adopter millenials would rather have 10 hours of unmissable content, and then pay more to have another 5 hours of content to be spoonfed to them.

>>713842645
It's the difference between enjoying the journey vs just wanting to reach the destination. It's a shame, to be honest.

>Play Tales of the Abyss
>Find it pretty lacking over a lot of the other Tales games, feels like my party has way fewer skills that usual, also feels like there's no side quests
>Every time I reach a new town I go through every single room and talk to every single NPC, find a couple of side quests but they're all pretty simple/shallow
>Beat the game, honestly felt very lackluster and lacking in content compared to other titles in the series
>There were some kind of large side quests at the end of the game but they unlocked basically nothing new and just required a ton of busy work, so they felt kinda lackluster
>Go online and search up info on the game
>Ends up there's a bajillion side quests but they're hidden/locked away in the most ridiculous ways
>For example a ton of side quests will require you to visit some town you were in 2 hours ago for no reason and then talk to some guy in the corner of the map who gives you a sidequest that has nothing to do with what's going on right now, but you only have a 2 minute window in the story to talk to him or else he vanishes forever
>Ends up one specific side quest is at the start of the game, where you reach the first desert town
>On one screen you can either go right or left. If you go right, you bump into a goofy NPC that looks like a joke character who asks you to backtrack a bit for some items and gives you some basic items in return
>However if you go left at ANY time, even after you talk to that guy, the game starts a cutscene and instantly triggers a point of no return scenario which makes it impossible to complete the joke guy's quest
>That random little guy's quest? It actually ends up that you need to complete it for all those other side quests I did to actually mean anything
>Literally get walled from a ton of end game content + rewards BUT still have all the boring busywork of completing some super tedious side quests because I walked right instead of left

>RPG where party members can die permanently
>There is no story content related to them being dead, their scenes just don't happen

>>713843019
nta, but I don't know why younger anons dont take the time to play and enjoy the game instead of trying to bum rush to 100%.

>>713794679
In the Souls games it's less "I'm entitled to see the ending of the game" and more "I accidently progressed too much in one area and now I fucked this quest permanently". Happened to me with Anri and the Darksign in DS3. The requirements for some of that stuff basically requires a guide.

>>713790067 (OP)
I made the mistake of purposefully creating a game which would take about 3 hours to complete, but with a lot of branching paths, so that players might try it again in 6 months time and go a different way this time.

No, they want to see everything in one play through, or they want to 100% it in one weekend, and so any care you put into it, any area or thing that takes longer than 5 seconds that they cannot skip entirely, is now an obstacle.

Your story is an obstacle, your gameplay, your graphics, your dialogue, nothing means anything to the retard who just wants to 100% as fast as possible and will take points off his review for being forced to play it again.

>>713846137
you have a choice:
don't cater to those retards and make the deeply involved game you wanna make and earn a cult following in years to come after normalfags shit all over your game
or sell out and make something boring and digestible

>>713846137
I will play your game and enjoy. Fuck Op and his retarded normalslop opinions and make the game you want

>>713807171
the fact that snowgrave took like two days for the internet to collectively discover was a pretty magical thing

>>713801531
soulless faggot

>>713838589
that's like saying "so what if there are 8 weapon types in the game but you only found 6 of them? you beat it with the ones you found so the fact that you might have had more fun with one of the ones you didn't get doesn't matter."

>>713843554
you have it the other way around. young people only get their parents to buy them a few games a year so they want them to last forever. adults only have a few hours to play vidya a week so they don't want games that expect you to replay a 40 hour game to find 15 minutes of content they missed the first time.

>>713790067 (OP)
One of the funniest and saddest realizations about vidya is that most people playing vidya don't actually like the vidya.
See every single first mod for a game being no carry weight, unlimited resources, babby mode turbo i.e. removing gameplay

>>713847552
When people run in circles, it's a very very mad world.

>>713790067 (OP)
This image is a bit exaggerated but its true. Wrpg fags preach the things in the top half but ultimately play like the bottom half. If they play fallout and cant lockpick a door theyll just cheat

>>713847378
>adults only have a few hours to play vidya a week so they don't want games that expect you to replay a 40 hour game to find 15 minutes of content they missed the first time.
Then don't play those kind of games. Not my problem that wagecucks can't vydia

>>713848570
you're literally the person who was saying "if you don't like microtransactions just don't play games with them" 20 years ago

>>713847552
>carry weight
Rarely ever enhances the gameplay experience unless it's a core mechanic like in Oregon trail.
>inventory almost full
>spend 5 minutes going back to your main storage container to dump everything
>resume playing the game
Such stellar gameplay.

>>713848765
I still don't play those games, anon.

>>713848765
I don't play those games anyway retard-kun and its still not my responsibility normal fags can't control themselves or make time for gaming. Fuck faggots who want to knock video games down a peg just because they lack the attention or time to play them.

Doesn't matter, I will simply download a savefile starting at the missable content / edit the save file / look up a guide / mod the game / cheat engine the missable resources.

>>713790067 (OP)
Almost correct.
Sure, making your game give complete freedom of action, choices, and living with their consequences, no matter how extensive of an experience (actually, even more when it's IS extensive), with everything modeled to the smallest details, and the environment reacting to your actions, is an absolute horrible mistake to make to ensure people will never want to play your game.

In response to that, you can see your game as disposable "CONTENT", only to be "used" once then thrown away when the player is ready to move onto the next thing©. It will get mildly successful, in the same way a movie can be.

Or, you can actually balance the game to a point where by the end of the main, expected story, the player gets engaged enough to replay it AND entertain the idea of your game and the lore even when not playing it. This naturally excludes games with 100 hours long main campaigns. This doesn't mean you can just make a 3-5 hours long main campaign and it will be balanced, else you'd be making a job simulator. You need actual effort in the writing and characters, and lore, but people still miss the point of that. No, I don't care that the game takes place in the continent of Bumphuck that has been at war against the Zblunbergs for 2340 years and there are 54 fantasy races that are each so quirky and hecking cool with spikes and scales and some even breath underwater and have underwater cities and the story is some inter-continental fantasy politic shit that's ackshually a clever commentary on modern day politics. No, people want something much more digest, clear-cut, not something that screams "YOU'LL NEED 1000 HOURS OF FREE TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF THIS POINTLESS FAKE WORLD I GAVE YOU NO REASON TO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT" right as you watch the video trailers.

>>713790067 (OP)
Thing is I've never seen actual gamers complain about this, just game devs.

>>713792797
>>713811340
>>713823486
>>713826389
Seethe about it. It's bad design. Literal "Mew under the truck" but real. This is why I said that the OP had examples that I would never seethe about but I knew that it was getting at a point that I disliked.

>>713800446
You're supposed to find out about these things through dubious playground rumors, and then be floored when it actually works.

>>713850493
No not really you're just a faggot retard who needs to go back

>>713843269
OP will defend boring shit like this lol

>>713846137
God damn it, anon. That sounds awesome. I'm always on the lookout for those kinds of games. Way of the Samurai is one of my favorite series.

You shilled me on it. Now please tell me what it is.

I don't have a problem with choices and consequences, bad endings, cool side quests with somewhat obscure ways to trigger them, a skill system that guarantees I won't be able to do anything, etc. All of that is good.

But that doesn't mean every single type of secret that locks away a large portion of the content is good. There are in fact bullshit applications of this.

>>713790067 (OP)
The problem with shit like this is that it's never done well.

Games can never give a satisfying failure state. It's easier just to reload.
If there are multiple paths, it's easier just to play each of them on one save and then choose the one you like best.
Things like NG+ have never been incentivized properly in games. Where are games with multiple endings and new quests in NG+? Where are neat things like Tales of Symphonia where you can bring certain things on the next run based on a point system? Where are the truly wide branching paths that actually make it worth playing a game more than once?
As cheap as a good/bad system like Infamous or Mass Effect are, that's at least a clear incentive to play through a game more than once.

there's basically 3 degrees of secrets you can find in games:

>things you can find by being reasonably thorough playing the game
basically no one complains about these and they barely qualify as secrets.
>things that you will basically never find without a guide or datamining
these suck and most people rightfully hate them
>things that can be found but require more searching than reasonably thorough exploration or blind luck
these can either be seen as a form of grinding or a type of gambling, both of which people have varying tolerance for.

>>713851327
>Things like NG+ have never been incentivized properly in games. Where are games with multiple endings and new quests in NG+?
I really like the way AC6 did it where NG+ runs had new missions and new routes you could take in missions you already did. It was a bit underused, but it had enough changes that it was interesting.

>>713790067 (OP)
The main problem is that the games often do not offer enough interesting content on a replay, so it's basically doing mostly the same shit except that now you get access to a bit of side content you otherwise didn't have access to.
Two of the examples cited in the image are pretty shit, awesome stuff shouldn't be locked behind very missable/easy to overlook circumstances, and it causes a bad habit of trying to check far more things just in case they have secrets, and if they don't then the fun value drops catastrophically.

>>713832456
Finding 4chan a waste is inherently a sign that you find normalnigger opinions valuable

>>713854659
I mean look at Ops. Probably the most normalfaggy soulless bugmen opinion to have

>>713827839
To be fair when people wanna play "generic" classes that sound simple it's because they want to figure out the game first. Games are very hit or miss on whether the more complex classes like mages are viable and/or fun to play.