What contributes to the idea that ER has bad boss design?
>Godrick
>Starscourge Radahn
>Morgott
>Mohg
>Malenia
>Placidusax
>Maliketh
>Godfrey
>Radagon
All S tier bosses plus the best gimmick boss they've made in Rykard. Much higher average quality than any of the other games except late game dark souls 3.

>>714187125 (OP)
mommy

>>714187125 (OP)
Made for Maliketh's 10 ft red rocket

>>714187125 (OP)
The past 6 Souls-likes of FROM.
ER has all around terrible game design and pacing, on top of being by far the easiest slop of theirs.

>>714187125 (OP)
Malenia its bad boss design she should recover hp like how you rally health

idc if people can dodge it every time, or even if I can, waterfowl dance prevents malenia from being S tier.

>>714187125 (OP)
>plus the best gimmick boss they've made in Rykard
literally just a clone of the Storm King and Yhorm. good for nostalgia but otherwise incredibly unoriginal for a gimmick fight

>>714189820
Its a completely fair and balanced attack.

>>714189851
its a shame you cant get that cool air spear by using fp as moonlight blade without mods

>>714187125 (OP)
you left out 10+ shitty bosses that are spread across the map

You can't play footsies with enemies. They have perfect tracking and weapons that are the length of a skyscraper. All invil frames or nothing. That's the degeneration of a genre.

>>714187125 (OP)
>Watch my flashy attack combos for 10 minutes before you can poke me my animator was very proud of this :)
elden ring fights are fucking boring

>>714190158
You died to it the first time you saw it because it’s designed to kill you. Not to be a hard attack to avoid, designed to kill you, unless you know it’s coming. That’s bad design. With encyclopedic knowledge of the game any bullshit can be trivialized, that doesn’t mean anything.

>>714190610
More like 10X. ERs got 6-7 truly excellent boss fights, dozens of mediocre ones and tens of dozens of shit ones

>Morgott
>S-Tier
He's the worst boss in the game after Putrescent Knight. Zero openings, randomly flails a dagger around with too few frames for you to react to every time you close distance, a horrible model that makes it difficult to see what he's actually doing, random bullshit field hazards in the second phase so he's even more of a chore to actually hit, he constantly spams 12 or 13 hit combos with delayed attacks and then jumps away when he finishes them, and the only real way to beat him is by facetanking everything since his stats aren't that impressive. Terrible boss. Every other boss you mentioned in that list is leagues above him in terms of intuitive gameplay.

>>714187125 (OP)
>What contributes to the idea that ER has bad boss design?
Fromsoft reusing bosses in the same playthrough. That's the problem more than anything else.

>>714187125 (OP)
>>Malenia
Waterfowl dance is the worst move in the whole game.
>>Maliketh
Probably the worst boss fight ever created. It's comical how the developers just stopped giving a shit about how the player is supposed to fight such a thing at this point.
>>Godfrey
Has AoE stomps that you can't jump over, you have to roll. For a game that introduced jumping to the formula, it sure is allergic to letting the player jump to avoid damage. Even against Morgott, the very first boss most players will meet, if you jump his sweep he has a follow up to punish you for doing so.

There's really no excuse for how bad Elden Ring's boss design is. Just look at Nightreign to see how they haven't learned a single thing.

>>714190610
Small bosses like crucible knights and bell bearing hunters are good too

>>714190998
These people call dark souls 1 easy because they know it inside and out and refuse to accept or acknowledge all the times they died the first go around without a walkthrough.
Like dying to a boss 50 times and once you win you call it "easy". It's childish and disingenuous.

>>714190998
>You died to it the first time you saw it because it’s designed to kill you
I didnt, but I had like 70 vigor in my first playthrough, killed malenia in like 7 tries thanks to giants hunt+charged R2

>>714191251
>Aoe stomps you can't jump over?
??? You can jump almost all of Godfrey's stomps. The only one your can't jump is the 5 second wind up mega attack

>>714191438
>??? You can jump almost all of Godfrey's stomps.
I've tried that endlessly and I'm certain you can't. It's way safer to just roll through them.

>>714191251
>>>Maliketh
>Probably the worst boss fight ever created. It's comical how the developers just stopped giving a shit about how the player is supposed to fight such a thing at this point.
maliketh needed a second life bar, he is too fucking weak

>>714191497
>I've tried that endlessly and I'm certain you can't. It's way safer to just roll through them.
dont remember about the charged one but you can jump all other ones

>>714191546
Having fast and agile bosses with lower HP is good game design.
Having a boss that flips around in the air for most of the fight, spams homing projectiles that fuck up your HP cap, have massive AoEs and jumping back after every single attack to avoid counter-attacks, and such quick attacks that no human being is capable of dodging them and also being able to hit the fucking thing without just tanking everything is a bad boss.
His parry mechanic with the fang is even more shit. You'll have to die 20 times just to get the timing for that down, probably better just to fight him without ever fishing for the parry honestly.

>fighting Glintstone Dragon Adula
>all the terrain is a coin flip on blocking breaths
>can just reset if it takes a flight in any direction it wants
>has a punish for melee where it flies directly up and burns the entire area directly down and torrent can’t even save you
>did we mention resetting

>>714187125 (OP)
now name the rest of the bosses
they are either completely trash or extremely annoying to fight

>>714191907
>Having fast and agile bosses with lower HP is good game design.
I agree but he dies in like 3 jump attacks with a heavy weapon

I don't think I'm going to buy FROM's next game. I didn't touch Nightreign because it confirmed my fears.

post a boss you actually DID like fighting.
This guy was the tower knight from demon's souls but better and I appreciate that.

>>714190816
Most of the time you can stick an attack in if you know how dobeit

>>714191248
the thread ended here.

>>714187125 (OP)
The dozen or so tree spirits, erdtree avatars, shitty dragons, ect drag your average boss experience down pretty far.
Then on that list, Morgott is a giant fucking whatever, Radagon is ruined because he had to be balanced around fighting the fucking slug after, Malenia is a trash fight that's carried by one bullshit move (really, play a mod sometime that pulls it off, and you see how pathetic the fight is without it. It's such a bad fight that it NEEDS the waterfowl crutch to be interesting). Malekith is hit or miss, Mohg is a nothingburger that has nothing interesting going on. You yourself omit Fortisax, the Fire Giant, and Rennala, core fights that aren't good.
The average boss fight, much like in every other fromsoft game, is bad. You are relying on the handful of truly great bosses to carry the game.
Placidusax and Midra cannot carry the entirety of Elden Ring's boss fight burden. By god Placi is trying, but he can't do it alone.

>>714192541
>Placidusax and Midra cannot carry the entirety of Elden Ring's boss fight burden
>these awful fights cant carry ER
no shit, they are awful

>>714192356
If it did why does nobody give a shit about what you said? Seems like you're the only person with that issue, man.

>>714192930
>If it did why does nobody give a shit about what you said?
This was all said in a few months after the retail release. But Elden Ring faggots kept on ignoring it and now almost everyone who criticized it has moved on to other games.

There are some bosses in ER I didn't like, but I'd say the overall design was fine.
The only boss I'm genuinely upset about is Consort Radan, fuck that gay shit.

>>714187125 (OP)
>What contributes to the idea that ER has bad boss design?
People that played it.

>>714193550
This
All of this is fukkin years old discussion now, and repeating the same points to people not actually interested in anything beyond contrarianism and brand cocksucking is exhausting

>>714187125 (OP)
>What contributes to the idea that ER has bad boss design?
The fact that the bosses suck. A boss flipping around the arena that you then iframe roll and poke isn't a good boss. The game fundamentally doesn't have the mechanical complexity it needs for bosses like that to be good.

>>714191208
>Zero openings
telling on yourself pretty hard here kek

>>714187125 (OP)
>What contributes to the idea that ER has bad boss design?
So called "Fromsoft veterans" getting filtered and having a wounded ego as a result. See: every post above mine.

>>714194719
>The fact that the bosses suck
have you ever considered that maybe the problem is you?
your lack of skill, specifically

>>714191248
It's okay when Dark Souls 1 does it.

>>714187125 (OP)
can you remove the fat ass cat? I don't like having him watch me jerk off

>>714195069
I beat the game with ease. I was commenting on its lack of mechanical complexity. Have you considered the fact that like all Fromdrones, you're a retard that doesn't know anything about good games and thinks that any complaints about design are really about difficulty because you're too stupid to understand anything else?

>>714187125 (OP)
Elden Ring has the best boss design in the industry. The fact that all the Shardbearers to me feel like they could be the final boss of their own game is astonishing to me.

Anyway, the reason is memes.

>>714187125 (OP)
I don't like when bosses can fly up in the air and fill the screen with particle effects.
That's basically it for me. Too much noise.

>>714191248
Elden Ring has more bosses than any other game in the series, it has about as many bosses as 3 Souls games combined. It has more different bosses and enemies than almost any other 3D action game EVER made. But the fact that you can rematch them is suddenly a problem? This is some retarded e-celeb/discord grifter shit. If the game only had 6 bosses and they repeated infinitely it would be a real complaint but the game has like 50 bosses.

>>714187125 (OP)
From the view of an action game, a lot of bosses have long strings that are meant to be read and reacted to with a short string, until it's time to read the next string.
Active offense isn't really a thing for ER bosses. You down items to ignore damage (boiled crab meta + opaline hardtears) and use your class's most effective mechanics (dodging, parrying, blocking) to resolve long, uninterruptible damage strings.
Honestly, while it's not my favorite thing ever, I don't hate it with a passion like most people, but it is what differentiates ER from DS1, DMC, NG, etc..

>>714187125 (OP)
I've done about 4 playthroughs of the game, and I think my problem with the bosses is that all of them have one SUPER annoying move that even with a ton of game knowledge is a super hassle to deal with, like Mohg's sprays, Malenia's waterfowl dance, or Maliketh's anime slices.

>>714196525
I hated Maliketh at first but then I realised you're supposed to play his 2nd stage like a rhythm game almost. He dictates the tempo if you play along eventually you can get a hit in. I I do agree he is bullshit though.

I hated playing most bosses in this game as a Str build. Have to wait 5 mins for tons of attacks and then get 2 hits in, then back to waiting for 5 minutes. Just wasn't that fun.

And to be honest, after 50 hours in Elden Ring I was at the point where I just wanted it to end.

>>714187125 (OP)
the fact that the majority of new players don't understand what positioning is and think the only thing you need to do is dodging or parrying. they also refuse to use shields and don't know what guard counter is. Every complaint about "waiting for your turn" is simply a result of them not knowing how to position well enough to capitalize on openings.

>>714187125 (OP)
Very long, hard to read attack strings. I'd say that style of boss design began with Bloodborne and never really stopped.
Also Mohg fucking sucks if you don't have/use the item to keep him from flooding the arena with undodgable shit and building bleed on you.
Malenia requires either frame-perfect dodges or a good parry shield (and who the fuck parries bosses?) to not get hit by Waterfowl Dance.

>>714195275
It is, because There's only a handful of them. You fight twice as many Ulcerated Tree Spirit bosses than all the repeated bosses in Dark Souls combined.

>>714196191
Oh look, the dismissing argument from years ago has just popped up. Like clockwork, Elden Ring fags simply can't handle any criticism, and then wonder why everyone left in the end.

>>714199207
You also fight three times as many different bosses in Dark Souls than all the bosses in that game combined.

>>714199468
But, you're still here.

>>714199594
>But, you're still here
A random drop in because I read the text of the opening post on the catalog page, nothing more.

>>714187125 (OP)
Because the bosses are terrible. Next question.

>>714195628
i dunno, sounds like a lot of projecting

>>714199207
There are 9 Taurus Demons and 7 Capra Demons in Demon Ruins alone. That's already an even match to the 16 Tree Spirits in ER + SotE and I haven't gotten to the Pinwheels before Nito or the Butterflies before Seath yet.

>>714199192
>I'd say that style of boss design began with Bloodborne and never really stopped.
Though BB had specific mechanics to reward measured aggression during enemy strings. It's ultimately a game that throws you so many more bones for never relenting. ER requires you to play defensive like 70% of the time by the time you've finished Leyndell. It's just reading long strings -> punish with a 3-hit combo, eventually stagger, and repeat.

>>714200547
Taurus Demon and Capra Demon are standard enemies turned into bosses in the early game. They're not actual bosses you plonker.

>>714190158
That's bullshit. The only way 99% of people got through it before seeing someone else dodge it was by spamming bloodhound step, using a shield and letting her heal despite not damaging you, or using a summon and hoping she goes after it instead.

>>714201069
How are Tree Spirits any different in that regard? Most of them aren't boss encounters either.

>>714187125 (OP)
Maliketh is proof that FS wants to make an anime souls, they just don't have the courage

>>714190816
>Watch my flashy attack combos for 10 minutes
No one is capable of criticizing ER's boss fights without resorting to this exact kind of retarded hyperbole
>the boss LITERALLY has a 63 HIT COMBO that you HAVE to sit through before you get to LITERALLY only hit them ONE TIME

>>714202050
Then I guess only single encounter bosses are the only true bosses in the game. That's just 9 bosses.

>>714191208
I beat him on literally the third try while being severely underleveled, refused to use summons or melina, and still had a fun and challenging time.
Probably one of the most balanced bosses in the game, but he does get a bit too easy if you're above level 70.
Punishing him is insanely easy and I got a read on his combos after dying the first time.
Actually gigantic skill issue.

>>714202913
Keep those goalposts moving. What happened to fighting twice as many Tree Spirits as all the reused bosses in DS1 combined? You couldn't even argue your way out of Lost Izalith.

>>714205012
>Elden Ring only has 9 true bosses

>>714202913
Lae'zelGOD!

>>714191248
What's wrong with reusing a good boss?

>>714191907
Use the columns

>>714187125 (OP)
Fight momentum is bogged down by attacks with a year long wind up

>>714191248
Magma Wyrms being reused that much was shit, especially since they all have different HP pools depending on which one you first meet.

>>714192186
these guys and mohg and maybe 1 or two others are the only guys that are kinda fun to fight and don't rely on cheap design or stupid gotchas

>>714194849
>>714203679
Imagine defending this shit game design. Oh man. Morgott makes Rykard look like a well-conceived fight.

>>714187125 (OP)
It's more to do with the combat system being old. There's only so much you can do with roll and poke for what? 5 games? Because of that, they've had to tweak bosses so that veterans cant just instantly smash them. Hence all the holds, and malenia's lifesteal that makes blocking impractical. They tried something new in sekiro and it really worked. They need to mix the two combat styles. Elden ring reforged is a mod that improves on souls combat drastically. You should try it.

>>714217919
I'll never understand why they haven't done more with Sekiro. Literally won game of the year and probably the best combat in all of souls, do they hate money or something? Its like they are more focused on making complicated lore to wow the idiots instead of innovating on actual gameplay

>>714218468
>I'll never understand why they haven't done more with Sekiro.
There's only so much L1 you can press before it gets old

>>714217919
>Le roll and R1
GIT GUD
>>714218468
Sekiro is boring as shit and there's literally nothing there you can do except blocking

>>714218468
Sekiro was one of the three games that was developed at the same time as ER and AC6. It finished and released first, but basically the gameplay things they did for it couldn't be put into the others at the time of development. They obviously do like the mechanics they came up with for Sekiro as they added the deflecting hardtear to ER's DLC (and designed most of the bosses around using it) and Nightreign includes a character with actual Sekiro deflection as his primary gimmick. They just haven't had the opportunity yet for a new singleplayer game with it. Probably whatever they announce next after Duskbloods will feature it in some capacity.

>>714218885
>>714219013
filtered

>>714187125 (OP)
When speaking exclusively of From software's recent catalog, Elden Ring's roster of significant boss fights is only exceeded in quality by Sekiro. Admittedly, that is a rather large gulf, due largely to Sekiro being built around a laser-tight design ethos, but it's still nevertheless the case.
Factor in the expansion and you have a list filled with the likes of:
>Margit
>Godrick
>Rennala
>Starscourge Radahn
>Astel
>Rykard
>Morgott
>Placidusax
>Maliketh
>Malenia
>Godfrey
>Radagon
>Dancing Lion
>Rellana
>Putrescent Knight
>Messmer
>Metyr
>Bayle
>Midra
>Promised Consort
I'd even wager that some of ER's less acclaimed fights still represent the very best in form relating to that particular design 'trope' that From have ever developed. These include Fire Giant in the colossal humanoid, Rennala with the spellcaster/summoner, The various Gargoyle variants etc.
Many if not most of the 'mini-bosses', the Crucible Knights, Deathrite Birds, Godskins etc. also command a marked degree of quality and often possess distinct phase dynamics. These 'lesser fights' are quite often better, mechanically speaking, than a broad swathe of From's bosses from their previous games.

>>714187125 (OP)
Radahn is an awful fight, both Starscourge and Promised Consort.

>>714222046
>The various Gargoyle variants
Those are awful, especially the one that actually fits into a "trope," the twin gargs.

>>714189851
Just because you get a unique weapon for him doesn't make it a clone like Ornstein in DS2 or something.