>Armors issue is they are generally slow so mages can one round them.
>Game gives skill to avoif issue since you wont double anyways.
>Fanbase thinks its a bad skill.
Why?

>>714270964 (OP)
Should have used a lust proviking image and Fire Emblem in the title.

>>714270964 (OP)
>Awakening turns armors into wacky guys XD
>Fates turns female armors into prostitutes
Apart from Nu-FE being retarded, armor knights don't get Wary Fighter until they promote and hit level 5 so you're lugging dead weight around

>>714270964 (OP)
Armors issue is shit movement and being doubled by everything.

>>714272826
Effie is best in the early game

>>714270964 (OP)
>Fanbase thinks its a bad skill.
Never heard this take. Maybe a few retards might have it because they got a speed blessed Effie once (and she's already fast for a knight) but for the most part Wary Fighter is the glue tenuously holding together armor viability. They still suck no matter how much effort has been put into making them "good". What little ground nu emblems had made for them is utterly ruined by enemies avoiding them if they deal 0 damage however.

>>714270964 (OP)
Enemy speed stats aren't generally high enough that anyone but Benny should be getting doubled. It's a terrible skill on basically anyone but him because more often than not it's just preventing you from doubling. Also the best "tank" class is wyvern lord, which has even fewer speed issues.

>>714272802
Why is bush such a staple of FE culture?

>>714274961
>because they got a speed blessed Effie once
Effie has a higher personal speed growth than Corrin and you idiots want to make it 0 with wary fighter. Kek

>>714278085
We Fire Emblem CHADS recognize the beauty of a woman's natural state.
We got official vulva artwork, and now we just need official bush artwork

https://youtu.be/8-rd7rDwEqk?si=sAPpdt-X2K21jgEM

>>714279014
>implying you don't take speed boon on Corrin
Also Effie needs a reclass for her speed to matter, at which point you're not using an armor and the whole point of wary fighter goes out the window.

>>714280263
I use magic boon corrin usually. If I was doing a ninja Corrin it'd be strength boon

>>714270964 (OP)
I'll never forgive what Treehouse did to her. Her popularity literally vanished overnight when they showed off her voice and altered personality. I remember seeing so many people saying they were planning on wifeing her before then.

>>714270964 (OP)
>Has cute voice in Japanese
>Is given a butch lesbian voice in English
I fucking hate treehouse so god damn much.1000 years of darkness and woe upon them, God willing.

Nintendo Treehouse should be burned to the ground.

>>714270964 (OP)
Tanking just doesnt make sense in fire emblem. Enemies prioritize the highest damage and the ideal strategy is minimizing or exploiting the enemy ai.

I want to shove my face in a cute FE girl's breasts and crotch

>>714281464
That's why it's up to the player to create scenarios where they're forced to attack the tank, doofus. It's part of the strategic play.

>>714280781
https://youtu.be/qDrKLW9KMJE?si=R5wH-I-KmSysFyjd
It isnt treehouse.
Its the entire english videogame industry.

>>714280752
Fate's "localization" was Olddog 51 tier. You could not know a lick of jap and somehow still come out better than the crap treehouse did.

>>714282646
NOOO DELET THIS HE'S GAY

>>714280752
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu3U-OnH-d8

>>714270964 (OP)
>Armors issue is they are generally slow so mages can one round them.
This has NEVER been their issue. Only actual dumbasses think this is their issue. Seriously, name an armor that, if moderately trained, routinely gets doubled by enemy mages. You might be able to name one or two in the games with the shittiest balance, at best. Enemy mages are slow as shit, it isn't hard to not get doubled by them.
Therefore, if armors aren't seriously threatened by double attacks, why would you equip a skill that *takes your double attacks* away, and offers no real advantage in return? A competent player will simply not allow his units to enter engagements in which they get doubled.
Even if hypothetically this skill did fix a problem that armors have, it'd still be a bad skill overall. Making a bad unit barely functional and having no application otherwise makes it bad.

I've tried explaining this to WF fags through the years and they never seem to get the basic argument, so I'm starting to think it must be mild mental retardation.

it's a good skill because it makes enemy armors harder to kill

>>714283428
It's just the usual FE armchair theorycrafters who try to "fix" classes without considering how they actually play out in the games. They do the same thing with Archers.

Archer Girls > Aroma girls

>>714283601
It is what I would consider an "enemy skill". Useless for players but extremely annoying on enemies. Similar to poison strike.

>>714284607
>Useless
Skiiiiiiillllllll issssssuuuuuuueeeeee

>>714284414
>Aroma girl
New class that kills enemies by making them smell their pits and feet.

>>714270964 (OP)
>putting your armored units in a losing position
>they lose
>HUR HUR HUR ARMOR UNITS SUCK
I swear to god fire emblem players are the largest tards ever who do not understand of having a specific role to play. They fixed armor in awakening with pairup that gives extra movement. They fixed armor in fates with pair up giving movement and wary fighter.
They REALLY made armor in engage very good by giving out smash weapons, engravings, holdout, tiki, sigurd, roy, camilla, pair up, lunar brace, and hold out.
Armors fine. Always has been.

>>714284978
Archers have also been good since Fates but people still theorycraft for them like every Archer is still Wolt and Rebecca.

>>714284978
Armours having the same move as other infantry in Engage really helps too. Too bad about generals not getting the same treatment
>>714285078
Archers in Triangle Strategy mog archers in FE by a landslide, because they are basically Gaiden archers with, you know, range on their bow and arrow

>>714284978
Armors are still not good in Fates, I'm afraid. Defense stacking is good, but the armored classes themselves suck for the most part, and a shit skill like wary fighter does not fix that.

>>714285234
Maybe that works for other SRPGs but Archers sniping you from miles away is just annoying in Gaiden/Echoes and hard to balance in a more traditional FE.

>>714283428
>Seriously, name an armor that, if moderately trained, routinely gets doubled by enemy mages.
Every single one not named Effie in a game with a lunatic/maddening mode.

Generals are great in fe11, you can juggernaut easily.
Knight Kris has the easiest time in the fe12 prologue and generals are fantastic in the midgame, plus their high defense growth makes them the ideal class to level many characters. You'll need to switch to another class later, though

>>714283365
Total localizer death

>>714284978
You can also just rescue your armors since the GBA games, but thinking two moves ahead is far too hard for the average FE metafag.

>>714286060
>Jump through hoops to ferry around the armor with worse stats than the units whose turns you're wasting to do so
Sasuga

>>714286060
some armors are too fat to be rescued by most units

>>714283673
The thing is that archers have problems that can be solved, and that solution is skills like hunters volley. Just lean harder into making your archers player phase monsters with no enemy phase at all, it gives them a unique niche and interesting use cases while providing clear counterplay, and makes enemy archers an interesting puzzle that de-emphasizes player unit speed as the ultimate catch-all stat for enemy phasing.

The problem with armor knights is that everything has to counter armor knights so players arent screwed out of the game the first time they encounter a 20DEF general on a throne, they can just use a Heavy weapon or one that negates defense and also inflicts a DoT and lowers their stats, but also if the enemy has access to any of that then player armor knights are completely fucking useless at their one fucking job.

>>714286175
Thanks for proving my point

>>714286228
Get ready to hear how this makes Wendy secretly really good somehow

>>714285446
Nope.
This is a Chapter 20 mage. He has 18 effective speed thanks to Tiger Spirit. Even Benny has reasonable options to not get doubled by these giga shitters without WF.
>9 base (Great Knight)
>2 tonic
>5 pair up
That's 16 speed for basically no effort.

It is a nothingburger. It's ironic that armorfags complain about mages, when foxes (a physical enemy) are far more dangerous to armors because they're actually fast and hit hard as fuck. Chapter 19 is one of the few maps where WF is legitimately good on an armor.

Dogshit FE mutt thread

>>714286228
The only armor with this problem in GBA emblem is Barth. Even promoted Oswin has 16 con which, while being annoying, is still not too much for him to be rescued by Eliwood, Rath or unpromoted mounts, and he's easy to rescue unpromoted.

>>714286395
Or you could use a unit with resistance and speed, like Elise or Felicia, to deal with them and not have Benny do it.

>>714286581
In FE6, the only unit in the entire game who can rescue Duessel is Sin.

>>714286636
Sure, and this is why the WF argument is so fucking dumb. It's not like Benny suddenly becomes a mage killer because you equip WF on him. It's still fundamentally a bad idea to have him enemy phasing mages.

>>714286286
some archers are bad because they have very low stats
that can be fixed by giving them better stats
no need for skills
>enemy phase
archers can counterattack 2-range enemies, 1-2 range enemies at the end of their range, and 1-2 range enemies if there's a wall in the way. that's way better than units who are stuck with 1-range. they're great on enemy phase if the game has a small number of threatening enemies, they're only "bad" if the game is about mowing through huge swarms of worthless garbage in wide-open maps

>>714286813
>Duessel
I'm mixing up my bearded Generals, I meant Douglas.

>>714286319
Your point? That armors inherently need to be babied the majority of the time and have essentially no upside or payoff?

Which FE girl is the stinkiest (in a good way)?

>>714286581
if you can't be rescued by a promoted flier then you need to lose weight

>>714286932
>WAAAH, USING MY BRAIN IS TOO HARD
Mald, metafag

>>714287589
You realize you're trying to disguise a con as a pro, right?

>>714287064
your mother

>>714287703
>NOOO, STOP USING THE INGAME MECHANICS THE WAY THEY WERE INTENDED FOR EXTRA MOBILITY
(lol

Uh oh armortroon melty

>>714270964 (OP)
I still haven't forgiven armors after my Draug died to 2 2dmg 6% crits from an archer

>>714286813
>>714286902
And that's all you need. Douglas seldom needs to be moved much for the maps where he's useful aka the Sacae/Ilia maps, since his job is just to draw aggro from the low str enemy spam in those maps, with Shin covering him if needed.

>>714272802
Made for BWC

>>714283365
>Comments are full of people preferring the english voice
It's ogre

>>714281464
You need someone to bait out enemies or at very least not die when someone has to 1v5 Pegas or Wyverns on enemy phase

>>714288962
well they pretend to like muh strong independant wahmen but clearly they don't. nobody cares about her, even though she's extremely cute

>blocks the path

>>714272802
effie is lust provoking to me.

I for one don't like armor knights because they are not myrmidons.

>>714290221
Reclassing Lapis to armor is one of the best things you can do in Engage

>>714280781
we don't have cute english voice actors

>>714290859
3H if you exclude Edelgard

>>714286395
>wasting a 5 speed pair up when you could be increasing his attack and skill while using wary fighter to avoid a double anyways
skill slots are in low demand on anyone not called Corrin, there's 5 of them for fucks sake and most characters will only use 3 or 4 for 90% of the game

>>714290302
Idk. Lapis personal skill really does not play nice with armor. Especially when diamant exists who has worse spd growth, but better strength, defense, and a supreme personal skill for armor.

>>714287291
bitch ass pegasus knights with their 11 con and shit

>>714290996
what is this supposed to prove

>>714290996
Edelgard is cute though.

SEX.

>>714291192
>5 speed pair ups are rare, trust me bro
You're missing the point. The point isn't that Benny shouldn't equip WF. The point is, WF doesn't really fix his issue with mages at all. He should still avoid them like the plague.
The actual reason to equip WF is ironically due to of the preponderance of PHYSICAL speedsters who fuck his entire shit up. Surprisingly common.
And even then, you're only making him slightly less mediocre. Not being able to double attack is viability poison in FE. Terrible, terrible skill.

Cutesythea

>>714292472
I agree

>>714292472
Did you know the guy who made the original version of this gif is dead?

>>714292709
no I'm not

>Promoting to General in Fates
Imagine skipping out on Luna, Armored Blow and a horse to promote into a meme class instead

>>714270964 (OP)
It would be cool if armors got bonus movement for moving in the same direction for multiple turns. "Momentum" property. Then you could kind of plan whole movements on a map around everyone keeping up with and clearing a path for the armor knight

>>714292817
>Luna
Listen I hate general as much as the next guy but don't gas up this horrible proc skill

>>714292847
it's a good thing fire emblem has proper map design with precious little straightforward movement so we don't have to give a single shit about armor momentum

>>714292931
Luna is good, it's just stuck on a class that only outdoes General in Conquest

>>714281464
Send tank into enemy range
On enemy turn, enemies walk forward and attack tank
Enemies are now in range of your other guys, who kill them on player phase
That's the idea, anyway

>>714293001
oh don't be like that. it could be movement in a whole hemisphere rather than just a straight line. As in if you start moving towards the entire western side of the map if you keep moving west you get a move bonus. I think it could be cool and make moving the armor knight a strategic pivot

>>714293142
>Le skill% chance to do like 10 extra damage at best
Nah it's shit.

>Luna is good

>>714292847
>it would be kill if armors were Regigigas
It's a cute idea, but it's funny to me that armors are so ass-shittingly bad that we're straining ourselves to make them conceptually more like famously bad Pokemon

>>714293325
Everyone loves the fantasy of a gigatank it's just a problem of making it interesting in a maneuver game

>>714293315
>10 extra damage at best
More like 15-20 extra damage, CQ has some tanky ass enemies, and even 10 extra damage is a lot. Not to mention, it helps a lot for bosskilling.

>>714286286
>that solution is skills like hunters volley.
lmao no

Fuck it.
Let every other class cap DEF at 20.
Only armors can cap it to 30+.

>>714290996
Tara Platt has a good voice.

shamelessly stealing a feature from Disgaea
Every class has a "Counter" stat that allows it to retaliate based on how high the number is (per phase)
so a mage with a bad counter stat of 1 can only retaliate against 1 enemy and will just become a punching bag if a second enemy starts hitting him
whereas a Nekomata with a good counter stat of 5 can retaliate against 5 enemies in one phase, or because this is disgaea you can retaliate against the same enemy 5 times for a counter-counter-counter-counter-counter (but then you lose all your counters if another enemy shows up)
It would probably take some getting used to, but if Fire Emblem had a counter stat, then you could balance high movement classes by giving them low counter stats, so a cavalier with 8 move and 1 counter can move twice as far as an armor but only kill one person on enemy phase, whereas an armor with 4 move and 5 counter can at the very least damage or kill everything that tries to hit it. Of course you could use this against enemies too, so if there's an asshole pre-promote that's too scary to fight, you could try and soften its counters up with your good units, and then finish it off with squishy units that would instantly die if they could be retaliated against
This also helps solve the issue in defend maps where your hector is just too damn good at killing things and gets chipped away by 20 enemies because he keeps killing the body blocking enemes that are actually helping him. This also helps solve the issue of Seth solo-ing the entire map, where if you only use seth and he can only kill 1 enemy at a time, he'll quickly get surrounded on all 4 sides by enemies and chipped to death instead of just killing everything instantly with a javelin on enemy phase. So you actually have to use several units pushing forward together in order to bumrush maps.
I think this is a good idea, maybe don't keep the counter-counter-counter-counter-counter of disgaea, but the counter stat on paper is a good solution

>>714295279
then armors will suck for the first 2/3 of the game where no one hits stat caps yet

>>714296131
Everyone but armors have 5 or less defence then while armors start with 10 and have 90% def growth.

>>714296347
they could have infinite defense and still suck, they have no movement and usually poor speed and for some reason low skill and lance-lock as well, compared to a cavalier with high movement, high speed, good weapon choice, and usually decent defense anyways, an armor just isn't worth even fielding

>>714270964 (OP)
Wary Fighter is an extreme solution thanks to how unfun it makes combat. Building up Speed to double foes is the strongest form of damage multiplication, which is important to beat against an archetype who's only saving grace is being massive stat sticks. Wary Fighter in Fates is an All-or-Nothing skill that removes half your possible interactions with combat. Follow-ups are not just important for hitting twice, but also procc'ing and benefitting from your skills. Plus it being Fates and not Heroes means you don't have forms of negating Wary Fighter, such as Nihil, your own auto-double skills, or even dropping their HP values to turn it off. You just have to fight it and hope they die. You don't even get that much benefit as a player thanks to how you have 3 Generals between Effie, Benny, and Ignatius because you aren't make anyone else one and Conquest maps are JUUUUST opened enough to not benefit from having a tank class outside of Xander.

It is similar to the Nihil/Mantle skills in Radiant Dawn, how every boss just have it so they don't get one-shotted by the Tier 3 Mastery Skills. But this also means most units' skill collections you spent the last 60 hours cultivating and playing around with cannot matter. Instead of just not having insta-kills be the ultimate death sentence... This is why, despite me actually kind of liking Wary Fighter in Fates, completely understand why no one should.

>>714295868
This works for Disgaea because Disgaea isn't really an enemy-phased focused system. Most of your kills is going to come on the player phase. Meanwhile artificially slowing down characters' enemy phase potential would come at the expense of the speed and simplicity of Fire Emblem. Even on more Player-Phase focused games like 3H and Engage, most of your damage and kills is going to come from omnitanking everything. Plus if this applies universally, then most bosses would just die without an Infinite Counter skill...

Interesting idea nonetheless.

>>714296723
Then Oswin sucks, right? That is what you're saying, essentially.

>>714296814
They never should have gotten rid of Nihil, you need something to counter some of the absolute bullshit skills in 3DS Emblem.

>>714284952
Does it give allied units some kind of boost in particular?

>>714296952
yeah, if you wanna be specific for some reason, oswin is not as good as your christmas cavaliers

>>714297062
>some of the absolute bullshit skills in 3DS Emblem
I mean, like what exactly? The only time Fates goes nutty with the skills are Honk in 24 and Takumi in Endgame. And nullifying their bullshit totally defeats the point of them having the bullshit in the first place. Moreover, there are good skill-based solutions to them, as well as non-skill-based.
You could say Inevitable End qualifies as "absolute bullshit" on its own, but that is the point. And again, there are very good counters to it, just not a braindead "turn of all skills" counter.

>>714297391
Oswin mogs those scrimblos. Also
>D-DOESN'T COUNT

>>714297695
>cavaliers are scrimblos
wtf you on about mate

>>714297472
Not everyone would have it since you'd have to go out of your way to get it on a specific class. And it'd take up a precious skill slot. Also just a personal preference, but I don't really like playing around skills that much, it's cumbersome. They should only be supplements to unit identity, not the entire meta.

>>714297776
>Cavs can't be scrimblos
Treck good???

>>714297858
Sure, but in practice, with the way Fates reclassing works, if Nihil was available it would trivialize lategame bosses and maps that already have reasonable, varied solutions. Which is kinda dumb. What's the point in having all that shit in the first place if you can just turn it off with an omni-solution?
Maybe you don't like tinkering with skills, but there's a good reason Nihil is not in the game.

>>714298179
He's at least better than all of the armor knights in FE6

>>714298348
nothing beats wendy

>>714296952
NTA but yes. Was there anyone that ever considered him good?? Hector barely slides by and he's mostly held up by Wolf Beil, being forced deployed in his own mode, and not being as shit as the other two lords.
Fundamentally, there's no reason to field a unit slower than everyone else, regardless of how good they are. This is why footlocked units are usually seen under skeptical eyes; if cavs are right there and have similar stats and benchmarks, why are you using the people with less movement? Again, Generals are really fucked by fundamental design and meta applications. Fire Emblem routinely values movement speed and negating even letting the foe hit you more than they can. Generals fly in the face of such, ontop of having no real place in the army. Even if they have flat damage reduction, not getting hit at all is effectively the same thing, including robbing your poor cleric girl of much needed EXP. This is why Heroes just takes from other SRPGs with them to make them viable and terrifying threats. Not only they keep the stat stacking, Savior functions like Radiant Dawn's Guard, you fight them and not the people they are covering in their aura. They have multiple skills that grants them double attacks, damage piercing, damage reduction, "critical hit" ramp up (since Heroes doesn't have crits but Special Skill Proc), many of which are exclusive to armors. They solve problems like ballistae units and melee nukes and synergize with the quick-kill metas of Heroes. And the smaller map design means their lower movement matters much less, if at all since there are just more movement buff skills across the cast.

And honestly Heroes approach is more overkill than anything. Just having one of these ideas in a mainline game would go a far, far way of making them at least fun to play as.

>>714298320
Nihil is just a badly designed skill in general. There's a reason Heroes nerfed it and split its ideas into 3 distinct skill lines.

>>714298757
Oswin has good bulk for the early game of FE6, some people manage to get a little lucky and have a decent speed Oswin and can use him pretty well if he starts to double. It's mostly because he takes 0 damage from most early game enemies that makes him good
also Heroes is fucking AIDS and the savior skills are the most annoying piece of shit skills in the game

>>714298757
>Even if they have flat damage reduction, not getting hit at all is effectively the same thing, including robbing your poor cleric girl of much needed EXP.
I agree armors are bad but this is an odd argument. Armors' single genuinely redeeming trait is their fuckoff defense stat. Defense is after all a member of the holy trinity of FE stats: str, spd, def. It's a seriously important and good stat that you can almost never have too much of, except in the few games where enemies won't attack at 0 damage.

Oswin is also kinda decent. But he's decent in spite of his class, and still not top tier.
The one time I like armors is in ironman relays. Variance and unpredictability are extremely high in an ironman shared among multiple players of different skill levels. Armors serve as a sort of stalwart or dependable factor, and Oswin was pretty consistent in the FE7 relays.
This is only in relays, again. In a personal ironman, just use cavs and don't suck lol

>>714298757
>Fundamentally, there's no reason to field a unit slower than everyone else, regardless of how good they are
If the faster units are already invincible juggernauts, yes. If the slower units can accomplish things that the faster unit cannot, then there is a reason to field them.
Hope this helps.

>>714283428
Not specifically against mages, but the speed problem is absolutely what holds them back along side movement. Speed is simply way fucking overtuned. There is no argument against this.
>b-but
Consider Pavise. A skill that has a CHANCE to half PHYSICAL damage. the "signature" skill of armors. Its fucking garbage because its best usecases are on medium def units. If you are a general and are taking 4 damage, having it occasionally hit you for 2 damage means fuck all when you have 50+ hp. Oh gee, instead of dying in 13 hits you die in 17! And then you have speedy mcspeed faggot the third that has a gorillian speed... and without even getting into his ability to dodge or anything else, he effectively has a permeant pavise/aegis because nobody can double him, thus halfing all damage potential at onset. He also gets double his own damage potential and of course can dodge. All for free, simply because he has high speed. Oh and he can move farther because fuck you.

Why would anyone ever use armors, ability or not, in this case? They are inherently inferior because of how the retarded speed stat eclipses everything else, and if thats not enough, they also cant even keep up with the army without slowing everyone else down or doing shit like rescue chains, which by the way is a fucking resource since you could be using that unit to ferry someone else thats better or use them to attack or get to an objective faster. So yes, armor's entire problem is absolutely being gimped in the two strongest stats across all of FE, speed and move. Getting a shitty chance based version of high speed doesnt do anything. There absolutely needs to be more skills that make them better at, you know, TANKING, or rework how speed/doubling works from the ground up.

>>714280752
Fates was the game that forever made me hate localizers. Rewriting entire characters, deleting whole support conversatiosn just because they think its funny
Imagine if book translators pulled this shit, but for some reason localizers get a free pass with their bullshit by normalfags

>>714300273
And if you call any of this out people will just go
>Wow are you just mad you can't marry the 11-year old?

>>714292472
>You're missing the point.
No, you're missing the point. The pair up system being hilariously broken doesnt change the fact that armors need more investment to do their basic job of tanking than some high speed faggot who doesnt need the pair up at all.

>>714300393
You shouldn't be able to. Children cannot consent to such things.

>>714296952
Oswin is specifically ok because he has monster base stats in a game with weak enemy units. He still isnt close to the top despite this.

>>714299190
>FE6
Nearly mindfucked me there, had to check to see if Oswin was in Binding Blade, which no, he wasn't. Only Blazing Blade. Even then, I was gonna write how Markus is right there and kind of does everything Oswin can but on a horse still amounts to being true.

>>714299657
Defense is cool and all but diminishing returns do exist, especially in games where enemies refuse to engage contact with units they can't hurt. Defense in a way is a unit's ability to overextend and exert themselves, which is why the movement stat is such a fundamental killer to them. Hard to wall them out and overextend if you can't even reach the chokepoint before everyone else. And even in terms of tanking around and drawing aggro, most units have good enough defenses, they don't make skills or effects reliant on HP like they do in Heroes. As long as you don't die, you did your job, so anyone can do that job with enough luck, planning, and stats.

>>714299850
This ties into the above, there is no job a General does any sufficient trained unit does better. Being a step above in defenses compared to the rest of the army is not job security, especially the way enemies scale in these games. They will just start hitting you harder and forcing you to heal up, meaning you are dealing with none of the good sides of armor units.

>>714300178
>or rework how speed/doubling works from the ground up.
I'm gonna pass on "retool the entire combat formula" in order to make one class viable, senpai. Armors are bad because they're no slow fatasses, yes. But anons overstate how "defensively slow" they are. It's actually not incredibly common for a trained armor to A) get doubled by a generic enemy and B) to be severely damaged by an enemy who can double them. Their defenses are not their problem, simple as.

The problem is they can't fucking move and they can't fucking kill (i.e. lack offensive speed). Period. They're just ass. No combat prowess whatsoever.

>>714300415
>need more investment to do their basic job of tanking than some high speed faggot who doesnt need the pair up at all.
Armors are not in danger of dying in any game! As long as you train them. The reason they fall behind is because they're slow and have shit offenses. They're not worth training in the first place, and it turns out that the "permanently half my attack" skill doesn't address the offensive issue.

>>714301080
Honestly I can't think of a way to "fix" armor knights in general without gutting the core of their identity (movement buffs, for example) apart from the FE7 tactic of just giving you one at the very start who is super overleveled lol.

>>714301354
That's pretty much been the solution to "fixing" both archers and armors. Just give them a shitload of steroids, so you don't notice they're missing a big toe and their ass is bleeding out. I have to say I'm not a fan of the approach, but fans really push back against anything that would make them actually interesting and unique in my observations.

>>714301080
>Armors are not in danger of dying in any game! As long as you train them.
And how would you propose we train a unit that, due to the speed stat being ridiculously overpowered, can only hit once, for the entirety of the fucking game baring shit like brave lances? This inherently makes it much harder for them to kill shit, which means less exp, which means they fall way the fuck behind naturally and start getting fodderized unless you baby them. To which, almost any unit is ok when you baby them and is not a fucking argument.

You can be absolutely right in that they keep up if trained. But the reason why everyone dislikes them is that theyre fucking harder to train unless you have someone like oswin which is giga stated and can promote basically immediately when you get the knight crest since he has to grow like what, 2 levels? If you dont slow down your army, if you dont purposefully feed them kills, they fall behind and suddenly your tank unit is less tanky then super speedfaggot. And where is the incentive to baby these armors? They cant double fucking ever in 80% of all battles. They are glorified chippers at best, occasionally being clutch walls in early-mid and then falling off a cliff. They inherently are units that arent even fun to train outside looking cool, because the ability to not double means that they have to have double the fucking str of speed faggots to even compete.

Speed is simultaneously the best defensive and offensive stat in most fire emblems. Reworking the entire system seems like a pain in the ass, sure, but then throw armors a fucking bone to try to compete. And/or make the games less hyper offensive.

>>714301637
>but fans really push back against anything that would make them actually interesting and unique in my observations.
Said "fans" are metafaggots that want everything to stay the same, fuck them.

>>714270964 (OP)
My favorite armors are Muarim and Mordecai in FE9
Same level of defensive power as Gatrie or Brom but with 9 movement

>>714301003
my bad, Oswin is in FE7. I was thinking of Bors earlier for FE6. Both Bors and Oswin are alright for the early game though

>>714302118
>And how would you propose we train a unit that, due to the speed stat being ridiculously overpowered, can only hit once, for the entirety of the fucking game baring shit like brave lances? This inherently makes it much harder for them to kill shit, which means less exp, which means they fall way the fuck behind naturally and start getting fodderized unless you baby them.
This is literally what I'm saying, anon
"Armors can't tank" is a stupid fucking meme. Armors can't kill, therefore can't get exp...there's validity to that.
Anons are trying to fix armors by making it so they permanently can't double. But that is their problem!! Weak doubling prowess.
It's retarded to think pushing them further into ineptitude in the area where they most struggle...makes them good somehow. Crack pipe shit.

>>714301637
Archers just need good def and crossbows like tellius

>>714301080
>and they can't fucking kill (i.e. lack offensive speed).
...so again, speed is the issue. Anon the point is that people would be ok if they lacked fire power but made up for it by being a wall. But since the same speed stat is tied to both offensive prowass and defensive ability, them having low speed means they excel in neither.

>>714300589
adults can't either

>>714301354
You gut their identity if their identity is bad.
I have zero sympathies to people that use the "Class Identity" argument for this franchise when most of the classes have been routinely awful. I'd gladly trade out archers being the most specific pick(-me) class if it means they aren't redundant. Thieves not having promotions or dealing any damage is a reoccurring class identity but I see no one like those ideas. Berserkers and Dark Mages not being able to hit the broad side of a barn are those classes' identity! You want another game with that being around?

It is fine to rework ideas if they don't work. It's why I don't disagree with >>714300178's idea of reworking combat. Berwick Saga has interesting ideas to it, how taking any damage denies your counterattack. You have to dodge or take zero damage, emphasizing player-phasing while providing niche protection on tank classes.

>>714302448
Speaking of classes with shit niche protections... Laguz and the later Beast Units really got shafted after PoR.

>>714302448
>Using the subhumans
Absolute retard kek. Enjoy your 1 range, 1 weapon choice, no Knight Ward and dealing with the shitty ass gauge mechanics.

>>714296952
>>714297695
>>714298179
>>714299850
>>714302742
Sis, it's just a different opinion. Calm down. It can't hurt you.

>>714302742
t. has not played FE9

What's the best Fire Emblem game?
I only tried Radiant Dawn on the Wii, 15 years ago or so and quit the game on mission 3 because it was boring and generic.
I usually enjoy tactical rpgs (Front Mission, Vandal Heart, Shining Force etc. are good).

>>714302667
No one said speed isn't the issue. I argued armors are not seriously threatened by double attacks if trained.
And players are demonstrably not fine with
>if they lacked fire power but made up for it by being a wall
because that is literally how armors work and have always worked. Armors are bricks, if nothing else. The idea that an armor can't tank is pure insanity. Compared to what exactly? A fucking myrmidon? A pegasus? Get out of here. If you only wanted a wall, you would use armors.

But it turns out, no one just wants a wall. Offenses matter in FE. And armors lack offenses.

>>714302571
Im saying that anons are trying to at least make the "tank" aspect of them have some merit, though you are correct in that it isnt enough. Realistically we would need a skill that allows them to tank for other units (and get decent exp for it) if you wanted to go the more defensive route. Or some sort of utility, something that makes them not fall behind.

The problem is that FE always becomes hyper offensive, and there is no room for a tanking unit once your other units kill potential comes online. So the onlyb way to fix it at the current game stat is stat inflation or bonkers skills, but that invites the pendulum swinging back way too hard.

>>714302867
FE isn't like Mario or Metroid, there really isn't a "BEST" one as much there is one that fits your taste the most. Since nearly every game reworks mechanics so heavily Kind of closer to Sonic in that way (if 3&Knuckles didn't exist). In some ways, it is more what is the "least bad" Emblem.
Generally, the ones you'll see recommended the most would be Blazing Blade, Path of Radiance, Fates: Conquest, Three Houses, or Engage, depending on how modern your tastes are when it comes to tactics RPGs. Genealogy of the Holy War, Sacred Stones, Radiant Dawn, Awakening, and Echoes are also moderately valid picks but they are definitely more "acquired tastes".

>>714303205
They ARE good tanks, though. But that's all they are. Has everyone lost their minds today or what? Name an armor who is bad at tanking. Please, help me understand.

>>714303372
>depending on how modern your tastes are when it comes to tactics RPGs
From PC-88 to Switch, really.
Recommend one and I'll try it.

>>714303068
>Compared to what exactly? A fucking myrmidon? A pegasus? Get out of here.
NTA but yea, depending on the game, the speedy people that dodge 90% of hits are effectively better tanks than the big dude in heavy armor taking 3-6 damage. Surely you can agree that this is ridiculous. I do agree that just making them tanks isnt the answer, but making them actually feel like brick walls would certainly help the coolness factor. As is, theyre better served as ways to train the cleric.

>>714303448
Wendy? Meg?

>>714303448
>Name an armor who is bad at tanking
Gwendolyn
Barth
Meg
Effie and Benny in Revelation
Dedue
All the Tigers in Radiant Dawn
Arden
Jade

There's so many that are SO BAD. Absolute TRASH tier.

>>714303714
Bullshit. There isn't a single game where a myrmidon or a peg consistently outperforms an equivalently invested armor on EP. People just don't want to invest in armors in the first place because they suck ass.
>>714303823
I meant when trained. Obviously bad units exist in all classes.

>>714303879
>All the Tigers in Radiant Dawn
Mordecai is pretty decent for a few maps in chapter 2...

>>714303879
>Barth
>Jade
>Arden
All have good defenses. Bad everything else.

>Effie and Benny in Revelation
come on, anon
You know I'm asking for serious here. Rev balance is fucked.

Rest of the units are just plain bad and are not representative of the class in general. They stand out precisely because they have such poor bases. Tigers are not even fucking armors, what are you doing nigger?

>>714303879
>Barth
He's good at tanking, people just bench him for half the game and wonder why his base 14 defense isn't holding up later on. Hell, a strat with him is to early promote him so that you essentially have Douglas for the Western Isles

Just remove doubling from the entire game, aside from niche circumstance like brave weapons. Speed is just for dodging. Suddenly armors are great.

Just design a few maps to where you can use armors to hold chokepoints while you complete objectives. Choking a narrow hallway while the lord moves to the boss and the thief plunders the treasury, with enemies that hit and chip down your evade shitters but can't scratch the armor.
>>714303448
Macellen, but that's not because he's an armor, he's just a bad unit.

>>714304143
Pretty much all the answers to which armors can't tank fall into either
>I refuse to train them, because they're bad (not understanding WHY they're bad), so their stats fall off
>obvious meme unit everyone agrees sucks shit
>from an incompetently balanced game

>>714304173
I always thought it would be cool to have armors be able to set up a zone where anyone that runs past to attack one of the other units gets poked for chip. Or maybe they can set up light runes or some shit.

>>714304340
>I refuse to train them, because they're bad (not understanding WHY they're bad), so their stats fall off
Because speed is bullshit, both defensive and offensively. People just want the tank to tank better but its useless without inflating other stats to absurd levels or giving specific skills to alter the system fundamentally.

>>714270964 (OP)
If they want armors to actually be good they need to either just give them infantry movement or make them res tanks in addition to being def tanks.
Having shit spd, res, & move is one too many weaknesses imo. It would also help if maps where designed with more physical nuke enemies because right now there's not really a use case for when you NEED an armor because a decently bulky infantry/cav/flier doesn't get the job done.
I think Engage making them immune to break was a cool idea but its easy enough to avoid enemy phasing with triangle disadvantage that its not really worth it.

>>714303068
your cavaliers get all the kills and get overlevelled and get the exact same amount of defense your armor unit has anyways

>>714304365
>multiple armors set up and a vulnerable cleric to bait enemies into a kill zone
Would be cool, except how would it work when you are fighting enemies that can do the same? You go in and try to check combat forecast only to get slapped?

>>714302867
>>714303372
nigga they all the same game, just choose the cheapest one, or the coolest looking one

>>714304340
This, plus making out every case where armors are good to be an "exception case". Armors actually have a pretty decent performance if you examine how they actually perform in each game of the series instead of wikifagging imo, they're not like archers who had a fundamental problem in design philosophy for 7 games in a row.

>>714304692
Cavs could atleqast be gimped with clever map design in theory. Fliers are the real cancer since theyre just cavs that ignore anything that would slow a cav down like terrain

>>714304831
>the cheapest one
I'm pirating everything. Last game I purchased was Battlefield 2.

>>714304831
>nigga they all the same game
Only non-fans say this about a game series.

Armors are actually really good if you ignore all the games where they're bad, ignore all the bad ones and also overlevel them.

>>714303603
I would suggest pick up Engage and just ignore the member berries and it being an anniversary title. They will spoil the games to a point but honestly it's better to just skip all the story cutscenes anyway. It is a very mechanically dense and interesting title that strikes a stronger balance between the super FFT-esque skill focused customization of the modern titles with the class and unit identity issue people bring up as complaints about them. If one of the Emblems seem interesting to you as a character, check out their game and go from there.

Just know it is goofy as fuck and it doesn't quite know it.

>>714304146
This is what that anon is talking about putting too much focus on armors as tank units and speed being the problem. Even if you cut out doubling, you aren't really fixing the offensive issues armors have.

>>714304365
Zone-of-Control mechanics are actually pretty common in lower-tier SRPGs like Luminous Arc, Moekuri, or Super Robot Wars. Fire Emblem does tend to avoid it because it values movement and tries to have more "natural" ways of forcing you to engage. Plus it doesn't really work on the player-end, especially with our classic issue "you can't get to the front lines to make it work".

>>714304340
You ask us to name bad armors who can't tank. Here are bad armors who can't tank.
>I refuse to train them, because they're bad (not understanding WHY they're bad), so their stats fall off
FE is routinely impolite to units who don't function on their debut maps. Babying works for everyone equally, so why waste that time and resources on ARMORS who are always fucked.

>>714305289
Armors effectiveness is entirely on how large maps are and how many spellcasters the game throws at you.
A mage heavy or large map FE armors suck dick.
A smaller narrow map FE with lots of chokepoints and few mages armors tend to excel.

>>714304143
Barth's actual problem is his high level and low HP. he comes with 25 HP at level 9 so he doesn't have a lot of levelling opportunities to increase his HP, meanwhile Miledy comes at the same level he does but with 35 HP. Even Bors starts off at 20 HP and level 1, so by the time he gets to Barth's level, he's already ~28-29-ish HP. Fucking Noah joins you with MORE HP and LESS LEVELS than Barth, why the fuck does Barth have such low HP
And Barth's defense growth is only 40%, so it's not like he'll even stay relevant if you level him up, he slowly phases out of being a good tank and gets chipped much quicker than your other frontline units because of his low HP. I swear, if they just gave him like 10-15 more HP on join he'd be way better

>>714304943
Fliers were balanced in earlier games by being somewhat of a rare class. You'd usually only get a single one in the early half of the game and they started off frail and needed to be molded into killing machines first. Reclassing is what has really led to fliers becoming completely busted.

>>714305312
>I would suggest pick up Engage
Right, I'll try this one then. Thanks, anon.

>>714305312
>You ask us to name bad armors who can't tank. Here are bad armors who can't tank.
Well yes, and perhaps I assumed too much, in thinking anons would provide only good faith answers. And not Revelation Effie, Wendy and Meg, or Tigers.

It's possible for any unit in any class with insufficient base stats to be bad. See: Fiona. Or: Ewan. Or: Oujay.
But is the prototypical armor bad at tanking? No. He's actually quite adept at it. Therefore, tanking isn't their flaw and if you want to "fix" them, you need to look elsewhere.

>>714304146
speed doubling is literally one of the two most important features of Fire Emblem as an SRPG, removing doubling removes half the spirit of the game
the other being counterattacks

>>714305289
Armor have far more good games than bad games

Armors can easily be fixed by increasing their strength stat. Speedcucks will write their essays but the most important offensive stat is the attack stat.

Armors should have Str equal to their defense/ similar base stats and growths to their defense.
They never double anything but can take a chunk out of whatever they do hit maybe one shot some light enemies.
They would still have a severe magic weakness while being able to fend for themselves against lances and swords. Axe fighters do so much damage and have a lot of health so I don't think this would change them countering them on the physical side.

>>714304943
Heroes has trenches that only reduce cav movement. I really dislike anything that reduces your movement arbitrarily, mostly thinking about swamp maps. It might balance the classes, but it really only makes the gameplay more annoying to deal with, instead of being fun or enjoyable

>>714305821
Team based turns and permadeath are quintessential FE though

>>714305915
*dodges*
Nice attack retard

>>714305915
Unless you're going to give them comically base and growth, it's never going to scale as well as multiplicative doubling. I would argue armors are among the weakest units in FE, weaker than little daisy peg knights. Bunch of wet noodle armed no doubling keks.

>>714304146
Worst suggestion. Doubling is part of makes FE not feel like a slow slogfest like a lot of other tactical RPGs.

See the funny thing is it's okay for units to be bad because 20 years later you'll get some dumb cuck pretending they're good and forcing themselves to use them just to win an argument on a Laotian Bean Counting forum.

>>714306597
Who is even defending them? The whole thread is shitting on them, or timidly defending them as a personal favorite at best. The disagreement is over what their issues actually are and how they should be addressed.

>>714305289
Hell, I can say there are good armors in this series
>Sheena
>Tauroneo
>Louis
>Edelgard (though she pushes it...)
>Lukas
>Effie in Conquest

But they are usually just good enough. Or taking advantage of their respective games' weird quirks. And even then, I still wouldn't really use them for their respective job in their games compared to the other, offensive options or classes with reclassing.

>>714305809
First of all, we don't know what you mean by "Prototypical Armor Unit". That can mean quite a lot of things? Are Great Knights armor units because they have armor effect? Just having a lot of defense and shit resistance (hence why I bring up Tigers since they are similar in roles)? The Armored Class Style with Engage or Three Houses's Adjutants, as that would count Brawlers with the latter idea. Just the aesthetic? Do they have to start as armors or do games where you can just become one count, as high growth units like Hilda, Jean, Cyril, Mozu, they can all be the prototypical armor unit.
You are arguing on behalf of the IDEAL of armor knights without giving us the benefit of the doubt. We know that Fiona and Ewan are shit units that aren't representative of their class or ideas, but you didn't ask what are shit cavaliers and mages. You asked what are shit knights and here are shit knights. And even if they all were good, it doesn't fix the core issues. Takumi and Claude are fantastic bow units in every respect but that doesn't fix the issues with bow units.

>>714305282
magic costing HP, or having the weapon triangle be 5% instead of 20%, or having 5 weapons slots instead of 8 slots, or weapon durability, or having a route split, or whatever is not important to the identity of Fire Emblem.
The most important part of Fire Emblem that separates it from other srpgs like FFT or disgaea or shining force is how stupidly simple FE is in terms of calculations, that you can counterattack on enemy phase, and that you can double with enough speed. Every FE game has these three features, other srpgs don't have these features (or not all of them). Fire Emblem is simple as opposed to mechanically compex, it relies on large swings in combat stats instead of minute 10% increases, and it's got consequences for fighting in either phase as opposed to player phase being undoubtable only for the player and enemy phase being entirely for the enemy. Sure, maybe you don't like Fate's skill system, maybe you don't like laguz transformations, maybe you don't like gaiden's magic system, or Sacred Stone's map, but the core of a Fire Emblem game still exists in Fates and PoR and Gaiden and SS, and is present in every other Fire Emblem game, but NOT present in other SRPGs

armor is fixed because i want to fuck effie

>>714306738
Oh not Armor Knights specifically. This is a great thread.

I just remember a while back there was some FE9 Miafag who had a meltdown over Mia being called bad. Standard fare. What made it really funny was they played through the entirety of FE9 on Maniac to prove everyone wrong and their big proof was showing that she couldn't even consistently kill a single enemy on the final map. Which caused further melting down.

So the idea of someone playing through the entirety of a game on the highest difficulty under dumb restrictions just to fail at winning a 4chan argument is funny to me.

>>714306079
ok, maybe there's more features than I'm giving credit for

>>714306910
Your retarded idea of FE isn’t correct. Stop blabbering.

>>714307110
shut up

>>714306904
I think you know what a prototypical armor is. It's not a meme unit, a trainee, or a unit that is in a game notorious for its poor balance.
Most armors can tank perfectly fine when invested in. This is fact. They're not worth investing in, though, because they can't carry their own weight - can't move quickly on their own, can't kill quickly due to low speed. So they fall behind.

It's important to make this distinction as to where armors falter, or you end up with retarded non-solutions like Wary Fighter.

Just ask yourself which armors you hate to see. Hint: it’s the ones with killer weapons. Give them the strength and crit chance to delete any enemy on the map.

The gachashit already fixed armors and it's cancer

>>714306904
Incredibly stupid retarded ignorant question, does "armor effect" actually have a bonus? Or is it just units with high base def and growths and weak to armorslayers?

Is a general with 25 Def and a Paladin with 25 Def significantly different in bulk?

>>714306904
Is Sheena good in FE12? Because she's terrible in 3.

>>714307527
It's a class trait. Usually represented by an icon. What precisely the trait means varies by game, but generally it's strictly a weakness modifier and nothing else. See also: beast, flying, dragon traits.

>>714307671
she's even worse in 12

>>714307715
Okay that's what I thought, but when you mentioned great knights having armor effect I wondered if I was missing something positive about that.

>>714306910
I think you could completely remove doubling and counterattacking from FE and still have a game that feels like FE from its player phase/enemy phase split and focus on efficiency, moving through enemy units on player phase efficiently, while ending in a way that doesn't get you killed on enemy phase.
I am not advocating for this cause losing the interactivity would fucking such, but I don't think that's what define Fire Emblem. The RPG character building is attachment to specific units instead of mass producing generics is what separates it from Advanced Wars, and the efficiency of moving through player and enemy phase is what separates it from games like FF Tactics.

>>714306910
I think the most important part of Fire Emblem is that you don't have to select "move" in an option menu to move your character

>>714307024
Hahaha, poor Miafag. Dude had an out with the fact that Mia can't kill the final boss of PoR anyway (because that final map is shit anyhow) and it sounds like he still ended up malding.
I don't even think Mia is bad in either PoR or RD but she definitely have stiff competition. Myrmidons are a weird class anyhow on the subject of class designs in FE but I think we all accept the idea they are supposed to be risk-and-reward-type units and rule-of-cool outweighs how bad they routinely are.

>>714307253
> It's not a meme unit, a trainee, or a unit that is in a game notorious for its poor balance.
Most FE units aren't made in bad faith. There are joke units like Merlinus of course, but they are the actual outliers. Gwendolyn is a meme not because she's a joke unit or in a game with terrible unit balance. She's a meme because she's bad, beyond failing to ascribe to the "Prototypical Armor Unit" ideal. Least Arden and Meg are funny units. Units like Brom, Roger, or Amelia are supposed to be taken seriously and still don't really work...
I don't disagree with the rest of the post, but I do think you just gotta accept the L on the "Who's a bad Armor Knight?" question.

>>714307885
That was me, not him. I bring up Great Knights because they do stretch the definition of "Prototypical Armor Knight", especially as they are a promotion for them. Amor Knights are such a weird class when you bring it down to brass tax like that. They are so dependent on a role and typing that other units fulfill, that the lines do start to blur when you start asking what they mean. Because there's no actual BONUS to being an armored unit in most of these games, what do they have and what does it mean to FAIL at being an Armor Knight?
Edelgard is kind of a prime example, she's so stat stacked and player-phase-dependent, you really don't want to use her as a tank. Hell, her defenses aren't even that good. So does she suck as an Armor?

>>714308785
>Merlinus
what? he has a unique role and is very useful

>archanea
draug
roger
dolph
macellan
lorenz
sheena
horace

>fe2
luka
fors
valbar
grey
robin
kliff
atlas

>fe4
arden
hannibal

>fe5
dalsin
xavier

>fe6
bors
barth
wendy
douglas

>fe7
hector
oswin
wallace

>fe8
gilliam
amelia

>tellius
gaitrie
brom
tauroneo
meg

>conquest
effie
benny
benny's son

>>714309001
Shannam is a much better example of an explicit joke character. Same with Marty and to extent, Arden. Kaga really liked joke characters now that I think about it.

Why do people say to S-rank Lyn mode for a HHM S-rank run? Training up Lyn mode units, especially when boss whoring, and using the stat boosters is objectively better

>>714308785
>brass tax
heh

I'm trying to think of a dumb way to implement a bonus for being an armor unit. What if armor classes got damage reduction against low weight weapons. Meaning heavy spears or axes don't get damage reduction, but things like ost Swords and bows get less effective unless you're specifically using a heavy version. Daggers as well would get hefty damage reduction.

This wouldn't matter as much for a General with capped defense, as units who use weapons like bows, Swords, and daggers are already gonna have lower might weapons and lower strength caps. But for something like a Great Knight that might only have slightly above average Def, it might give meaningful mitigation.

>>714309445
armor units could have infinite defense but they'd still be bad

>>714309545
Okay, but what if that means you could expand the armor bonus to apply to other medium jobs like Halberdiers or Heros? Would gaining a weakness to armorslayers be worth damage reduction from lower weight weapons like silver swords?

>>714309845
that's great, but we're talking about armors here

or you could just put pavise on a halberdier

>>714307671
>>714307742
I have a softspot for her and she has fine enough bases. I don't think she's a good unit with how late she drops in but she can tank, which is kind of the question here... FE3 also have the starshards working too, so again...Weird game quirks.

>>714309240
>>714309001
Merlinus just came to mind first given how explicit his humor is and how bad the convoy idea was. But Shannam is more a perfect example.

>>714309445
Adding more damage reduction isn't the solution. This is where I agree with the anon about the "Prototypical Armor Knight" idea, they are fine at blocking. They don't need to be better at it.
What they need is unique strengths and powers to make people want to USE armor knights. It's why just giving them more movement doesn't really fix it and why it is so frustrating how close Engage was. None of the unique armored bonuses was good enough to warrant running an armor knight and the lesser move, even with Sigurd Ring + Canto. They need unique and cool applications, as much as fliers skipping over terrain or myrmidons getting Astra. People like messing around with bad classes and units, see Summoners or the Super Trainees.

>>714309240
>Shannam is a much better example of an explicit joke character.
He is portrayed comically and is a bad unit but he is the only source of the bargain skill, which would be very valuable in other games. It's just underwhelming in Thracia because you easily capture for so much money and have nothing to spend it on, except maybe the secret shop.
>Marty
He easily reaches 20 BLD with far less training than any other unit. He can be useful in recruiting Xavier if you don't abuse sleep/thief.
>Arden
Yeah he sucks. The pursuit ring and other events seem to reinforce the idea that he sucks.

Kaga probably liked joke characters, e.g. Samto (Navarre impersonator)

>>714310068
No YOU'RE talking about armors. I'm spitballing about expanding a mechanic that only serves to give units you think suck further weaknesses.

>>714310086
Sheena dies to everything in fe12. Her one redeeming feature is that she can reclass to sniper and use parthia.
In fe3 she's one of two units that can use the gradivus while indoors.

>>714272826
Both CQ knights are genuinely great units though, granted Effie wants out and into any other non-magic class asap.

>>714282135
as if base growths mean shit in Thracia

>>714272802
>Saves a dying page10 with no posts threads.
She too strong.

How to make Armor Knights a good class: Just give them Chain Guard instead of Qi Adept.

>>714311354
Making it so enemies don't attack 0% hit chance was annoying. Yunaka was fun on my first playthrough being literally untouchable but still slaughtering things on enemy phase.

>>714310086
>FE3 also have the starshards working too
See that's the funny thing. You get Sheena, a growth unit, AFTER you've lost the Starshards. You still have the Orbs at least but even those you lose at the end of Chapter 20.

When I hear of good armor units, Effie and Oswin are generally mentioned. Are there any other ones that you would say are good?

>>714312269
Gatrie

>>714311354
It must be so hard to samefag to keep your dogshit engagement (KEK) huh.

>>714312269
Hector is an obvious one if you want to include him. Edelgard on a technicality too even if she's better as literally anything else.

>>714312181
Fuck me, forgot how late she came in.
Truly a FUBAR'd unit. Still find her a cutie.

>>714312269
Ignoring my Lust-Provoked Idiocy here, the other units I bring up >>714306904 are valid picks. Wanna also throw in Gilliam too.

>>714270964 (OP)
>>Armors issue is they are generally slow so mages can one round them.
... the issue is the mov and the lack of doubling bro, it's not mages

>>714312725
it's compounded by mages being a common endgame enemy

>>714312779
I cumpounded your mom last night.

>>714313348
SHUT THE FUCK UP DAD

>>714312636
I mean it's fine. I've used Miranda in FE5 before just because I like her and she's probably substantially worse than Sheena.

>Make Armors res less shit
>Give them weapon triangle control to reinforce their position as the physical class
>Make tiles adjacent to armors cost enemies extra movement to pass
>Give them a movement option to catch up to your forces (but specifically can't be used to pass them, so they're still bad at emgaging and reaching objectives).

Marriage with Marianne!

>>714270964 (OP)
Have strength reduce weight. Did wonders for Gatrie.

>>714314906
Con works just fine

>>714314053
>Give them a movement option to catch up to your forces
Just give em Swap. Super simple solution. Pivot can be an option too but might be too much.

>>714301637
What if you make archers ride horses before promotion?

>>714282135
>bowcuck
Just use Dagdar for fucks sake

>>714306904
>Tauroneo
I dunno about RD, but PoR Tauroneo sucks shit compared to Brom and Gatrie.

>Lukas
Forsyth was better than him in both Gaiden and Echoes for me.

>>714315706
Give them an skill that lets them get attached to other units.
Like say a Paladin gets near one and an option to ferry appears.
Then use the aid/con formula and assign a move penalty for the ferrying unit.
Then that unit drags the armor without using the armor's turn.

>>714316203
this already exists

>>714315706
Swap was honestly an insanely clutch skill when doing the Lunatic Fell Xenologue campaign. Run through as well.

what game are you talking about where knights are getting killed by enemy mages??

sedgar is the only good armor knight in the series

>>714316464
But both rescue and shelter waste the armor turn unless you do a transfer chain in Fates.

>>714316203
While the absolute last thing I want for FE is for it to become more modern, I think it would be neat if they made a mechanic like the APC from Valkyria Chronicles, where you can pile a bunch of units into a 'vehicle unit,' move it and then deploy those units from the vehicle.

>>714317794
>2 luck

>>714318068
>NOOOOOOOO NOT THE 0 DAMAGE CRIT

>>714318097
>2 res

>>714318202
name 30 armor knights with more than 2 res

>>714318434
All the characters in shadow dragon that can reclass to general, except wolf and sedgar, have 3 res
And wolf has a better luck stat so he doesn't get ohkod by mages

>>714306235
Make armors high skill units and cavs and fliers low skill ones. It’s hard to hit something when you’re on a finicky moving animal, after all.

>>714307671
Basically everyone past a certain point in 12 is bad, a consequence of chucking units at you without bothering to adjust their stats. Really, it was Revalation before Revalation.

>>714320031
I remember Katarina being pretty good but I was only playing on H3.

>>714320031
Est is good and Katarina is a solid staffbot, so maybe that's the cutoff?

>>714320587
she is one of the better midgame recruits but still a bit questionable
basically just a worse marisha with base aura rank, and she technically can tank with nosferatu, but her luck is pretty shitty so she faces crit from just about everything, and she doesn't have the mag + spd at base to fully make up damage taken with it
also a decent levin swordmaster, but needs a couple extra stats to really make it work
she is not bad, just tends to get overrated by people who play runs where you jack her up with a million statboosters and have her spam nosferatu the rest of the game, which marisha does even that better

>>714321442
Yeah exactly what I was thinking. She's not bad but I imagine she gets a lot worse on the difficulty where every enemy has Vantage.

>>714270964 (OP)
I didn't really experiment with armors too much in my conquest play through, but I did play the final DLC map where you use all the children units.

This mother fucker carries one entire side on his shoulders as a general. I was really surprised.

>>714270964 (OP)
That passive makes them work, and the pair up system allows you to negate their shit movement. Generals are actually pretty fucking good in Fates.

>>714270964 (OP)
>"Why is Wary Fighter considered a bad skill?"
Unfun to fight against + doesn't actually help that much for player units
>mages/hammers still rape you
>most units that would double you don't do much damage anyway = easy block stacks
Armours LITERALLY just need more movement.

>>714300393
>yeah we're gonna change this support it's too problematic for you to get romantic with this little girl
>btw you still get to fuck her and make her into a mother
What was their problem?

>>714322792
I was referencing Anna in Engage. They got around the Elise thing by just declaring her to be an "adult" in a really poorly written conversation

>>714319536
horze and ridrr az wun :DDDD

>>714321052
I think the cutoff is around the Sable Knights joining. Some units are usable, like Frost and gihis staff rank if you really need it, but then there's the Wolfguard who can't even be safely used on their join chapter without dying. It legitimately makes you wonder that the hell they were thinking.

>>714283365
>>714285860
>>714288962
Makes sense, you want a buff character to sound buff. Giving Effie a gentle and cute voice is unironically cliched.

>>714323051
Probably just didn't have time to balance shit outside of maybe Hard 1.

I mean look at the Prologue on Lunatic. There's basically only two viable Kris builds for that entire string of chapters. If you pick anything else you basically just get fucked come P8.

>Actually Bad Things are Good
Zzzzzzz
I am BEGGING nu-trolls to PLEASE get better material.

>>714323126
cliche from what

>>714270964 (OP)
they were good in shadow dragon
reclassed general wolf and sedgar are beasts because of how good their stats are. they also randomly get bows which is nice

>>714322886
I'm aware of Engage Anna, I just find it funny that for as fucky as Fates is, the children make it an even more inconsistent hackjob that they have to handwave away, and no one bats an eye.

>Actually shit is good
Stale bait.

>>714323552
who are you talking to

>>714323607
Every single zoomer that does this to get attention. If I quoted them all the system would think my post is spam.

Which FE12 units are more viable on H4 than H3 and vice versa?
Can be because of mixed class sets, stat boosters, enemy vantage, or anything else I'm forgetting.

>better growth balance
>better promo gains
>perfect CON for rescue strats
>good supports
>cute
Eternal reminder that Wendy is the most reliable knight in FE6.

>>714323191
I don't think you need to rely on Kris in P8. You can turtle pretty effectively and kill the enemies as they come to you.
The real roadblock is P1, mage Kris gets fucked unless the enemies roll down.

>>714323994

>>714323191
I'm not entirely sure which 'two viable builds' you have in mind, but I've done a deathless run of the prologue chapters on H3 with mage Kris.

>>714270964 (OP)
The nature of these games means that any melee unit with less MOV than others is dead weight. They can't reach the front in time so they can't do anything.
The solution is to just, not do that. Just give them more MOV. It's not unbalanced. This is just a skill issue on the part of game designers.

There are countless other solutions too.
A mechanic that lets you move double the distance by only moving on your turn.
Charge mechanics, that let some units attack even after a double-move.
Reach weapons combined with attacks of opportunity, so you do your attacking during enemy phase.

FE refuses to do this so it remains a series where the best strat every single time is "move the strong fast guy really fast and oneshot everything".
Ironically their best solution for armors was "let the strong fast guys equip them like a backpack so they're now strong fast tanky guys", kek

>>714325014
Armors should’ve had the Qi adept trait. But maybe armors should have something similar to bracing like in the Total War games, they should be built for holding lines.

>>714324161
>>714324952
I should have specificed. I was speaking from the perspective of a person treating Lunatic like a slightly harder version of Maniac/H2 in the same way H2 is a jump from H1.

They wouldn't necessarily know on a first playthrough that the jump from H2 to H3 is more like the jump from Awakening Hard to Awakening Lunatic than something like Eliwood Normal to Eliwood Hard.

So they pick whatever Kris strikes their fancy as normal and are met with a string of really difficult chapters unless you pick one of the like... two or three Kris classes that make it easier.

I hope that makes sense, my fault for being vague. I'm not doing the usual /v/ thing where I'm saying "only x and y option are viable and you're an idiot for picking anything else!" I'm more saying H3 in FE12 seems not entirely playtested.

>>714323695
Est is a lot worse in H4 because it's much harder for her to gain EXP with triangle attack cheese, she gets oneshot by just about anything for a pretty long time
conversely units with nosferatu are actually buffed a good bit, because the reversal gimmick lets them player phase with it
some of the more mid archers like Ryan and Jeorge who can't one round things are also probably hurt a lot by it too, since archer chip doesn't fully stop you from taking damage anymore

>>714325625
H3 in FE12 seems like it was playtested, otherwise it would be hard to explain why some enemy formations are slightly repositioned compared to H2. But yes, it was designed to be played by people who already played through H2 and know how the game works, unlike some other games where you're expected to jump to the highest difficulty (e.g. fe8)

Since this is a thread about fixing shit, how would you fix Smash to make it actually useful?

>>714325625
H3 is playtested. They learned their lesson from FE9-FE11 to actually playtest the hardest difficulty and make it not a tedious slog. Just compare it to those games and it's like night and day. FE12 Lunatic is very deliberate in its difficulty which is one thing I appreciate about it.

>>714326359
Add attacks of opportunity so enemy melee units can be smashed back when they approach, preventing their attack. And if you smash a unit into melee range of your own unit they can attack as well.

No one will touch these meme modes sis.

>>714323994
You have brain damage but its as expected from a FE6 fag.

>>714326867
Sorry if our talk of the higher difficulty modes made you feel insecure I guess? Nobody was insulting you for playing on normal. I don't personally give a shit.

>>714270964 (OP)
Armor issue is their extra durability is pointless when wyverns can tank, kill, and fly.

>>714326359
I mean, it's already super useful, which is why bosses in Lunatic are immune to it, and even outside of lunatic the multiple health stones system is used to allow them to recover from Smash.

If you think it's not useful enough it's just because they made it useless against the units where it'd be most useful.

>>714326359
I love Goldmary so much bros

>>714322740
You're only half right. The truth is that Wary Fighter is an incredibly strong skill on player units as well as enemy. It's still not a particularly well designed skill, anything that just "turns off" a major element of the game to advantage a specific unit is always going to be cheesy as hell.

>>714327886
>hot bitch who claims she's all that
>think she's full of hot air when you first meet her
>no, she actually really does back up every single one of her claims and fully earns that confidence
She's perfection

>>714328837
>The truth is that Wary Fighter is an incredibly strong skill on player units as well
No it's fucking not it genuinely sucks. Benny is the only character in the game that makes a remotely good case for ever equipping it.

>>714323994
Gwendy is cute and can grow into a perfectly fine unit, but whether she's worth the trouble at all in a game that gives you far more versatile bulky units is questionable at best.

>>714328890
>>714327886
>Marigold exists for thousands of years
>No one realizes Goldmary is the perfect girl's name until Jap writers at IntSys

>>714327886
She would hate you if she were real.

>>714328948
>Benny is the only character in the game that makes a remotely good case for ever equipping it.
He's not the only one, but Fates is a game that really seems to hate giving you tanky slow units so he's the most obvious beneficiary.
It's a shame Corrin's growths are so heavily against him going full dragon build (given you can't really make him both bulky and magically inclined), Wary Fighter is perfect for it.

>>714329295
>Wary Fighter is perfect for it.
What are you doing that you're frequently getting doubled with fucking Corrin? The reason it's so bad is because it's trivially easy to boost your speed in Fates and enemies don't have access to any of those methods. So all you're doing by equipping it is halving your damage output in most circumstances for no reward.

I love my Empress so much bwos

>>714280432
Hi Kellam!

>>714329671
Nice illiteracy, you fucking retard.
>It's a shame Corrin's growths are so heavily against him going full dragon build
You know, dragon stones. The thing that gives Corrin a negative speed mod and disallows doubling? It's a shame Corrin can't really build into using his dragon stone primarily very well since his stats encourage you to build him as a fast physical unit.
>inb4 you only read half of this post as well.

>>714329918

>>714330015
>since his stats encourage you to build him as a fast physical unit
I think he's better as a magical unit. The Dragonstone still wouldn't be good longterm if his stats were more min-maxed for it because not being able to double sucks as I've already explained.

>>714330369
>I think he's better as a magical unit.
I mean I don't disagree entirely, I have run him both ways and Fates has a lot of things that benefit mages specifically. That said, you do kind of have to give him a magic nature if you want to reliably get the stats you need for that, and doing so obviously means you can't pump up his relatively mediocre defensive growths.
>The Dragonstone still wouldn't be good longterm if his stats were more min-maxed for it because not being able to double sucks as I've already explained.
I think you're underestimating just how good that added longevity is, especially since CQ Corrin natively gets access to a really strong debuff. You can send a dragon corrin in, let him soak up damage and dish out chunky hits + debuffs, and then send in your player phase inclined units to clean up.
Honestly the biggest knock against Dragon Corrin is that Horse Spirit exists, is accessible in every route, and is one of the most disgustingly overtuned weapons in FE history (and it's not even a PRF) leaving little reason to run a Dragon Corrin over the much easier to build 1-2 range Mage Tank Corrin. At least dragon stone is good in the early game, I guess.

Dstone+ Corrin is so disgustingly gigabulked and frankly still pretty fast that WF would barely even make a difference on him. Wary Fighter fags are mental gnats, I swear. Inventing problems and then trying to find the solutions to them.

>>714329918
>>714330305
Topical to the thread, but knights - Kellam in particular - have a pretty decent niche in early game Awakening L(+) because of the fat DEF bonus on pair up. Kellam gives +5 to anyone at base.

>>714327886
3hrt hated her because she's the perfect wife

>>714326359
Theres nothing to fix
>can break any unit by knocking them into another unit or object
>fuck off huge MT, making them absurdly powerful on engage attacks, double that on AOE attacks like great aether, override or blazing lion (especially if on alear or veyle)
>can one shot low HP units
>can patch up low hits or weight with engraves
Shits really good, especially on generals who are supposed to get hit. If im using a general louis, with all the dlc you can easily get the venomus at ch14. You gonna one shot everything until ch 18. Once you hit ch18 you will one shot everything except for armor, wyverns and paladins.

Other than Kris who are the best units in each class in New Mystery? Starting class doesn't matter, I mean stuff like General Wolf in Shadow Dragon
I'm especially interested in who to make a berserker or horseman.

>>714335569
Shiida

What if we combined Fire Emblem and Souls-like together?

>>714335881
Spinning Goldmary

>>714335881
Souls-like isn't a real genre

>>714328890
>>714329184
Conceited fucking bitch. Instant turn off. Based Ike for thinking the same.

>>714335881
No thanks bro! https://youtu.be/BEhPPHhVLq8?si=IbZsfO_qTtjq9Y9g

we already have an FE thread dumb mongoloid

>>714331094
>At least dragon stone is good in the early game, I guess.
Its real value is powerful pair-up attacks.

>>714316046
I mean xavier is there.
>>714270964 (OP)
Armors can be good if they tank well, Wolf and Sedgar are notable because of how their Defense racks up and have good chokepoints for a majority of the game. Oswin is good because he's overleveled and has good base stats. It depends on the game imo, if the game has alot of strong enemies more defense is valuable, if they're weak then defense isn't that important.

>>714341759
?

>>714341759
This thread was first.

>>714335881
>we want more lore/world building eceleb and niggers
fuck no

>>714341879
Hi, interjecting into this conversation.

To begin with, it's incredibly stupid to have your main character act as your tank. If they die, then the game is over, that's it. However, just because something is stupid, doesn't mean we have to be stupid about how we implement it.

It is true that in Birthright, the Yato in Corrin's inventory gives him +4 STR and SPD, but it's also true that in Conquest, the Yato instead gives +4 DEF and RES. If Corrin is given a RES boon and a SPD bane, then they can stay a Nohr Noble and achieve 33 MAG, 42 DEF, and 47 RES when using a Dragonstone+ and possessing the Shadow Yato at level 40. Get Wary Fighter from a friendship seal, and you'll have a monster of a tank in them.

Micaiah be like
https://youtu.be/8SFFXgHY1C4?si=jUPFprb6CXz2KU2P

>>714343003
>disparages lore and worldbuilding
>Engage fan
Checks out

>>714344478
you retarded chud.
no. lore shit has been irrelevant to fe.
no. women are not allow in the battlefield.
no. hrt are not available in medieval setting.

>>714344735
How can you type when you're busy jacking off both of your dads, faggot?

>>714344119
>If they die, then the game is over, that's it.
You know can reload the map, right?

Yeah. I'm not sure why you don't think I know that you can reload the map. That doesn't actually change anything that I said so I'm assuming you just wanted to share a cool factoid you knew and aren't actually dumb enough to think that was a rebuttal.

>>714344478
Shocking I know.

Oh, we're doing the thing where we don't reply to each other? Okay.
You said it's a bad idea to tank with your lord because "that's it, it's game over," implying a certain permanence to the loss. But...that isn't the case, you understand this right? You can just soft reset, same as you'd do with any other unit.
The reason I ask if you understand this fact is because you don't seem to understand it. So can you clarify for me one last time - you understand you can soft reset upon lord death with no lasting consequences, yes?

just let armors equip armor.

>>714345790
If you die in the game you die in real life.
So naturally you want to maximize your lord's defensive capabilities. After all the purpose of a tank is to survive, which is a perfect fit for a unit that absolutely must not die.

>>714346186
>FE
>armor

Does this anon not understand that we know all this already and for some reason they think they're imparting new knowledge on to us?

Do they not understand that a game over and resetting and starting over the map are functionally the same thing and they're just being a worthless pedant? Probably because the only praise they could get as a child was for their perceived slightly above average intelligence and made it their whole personality?

But I don't want to hurt their feelings.

I would hope at least they understand how embarrassing it is to talk down to anyone when their "insight" is incredibly redundant and misses the point of the post they replied to completely.

>>714346819
I still don't get why making a lord your tank is any worse than making random shitter #8 your tank, if you actually understand all this. I think you just forgot that you can reset or something, and now you're backpedaling. It literally doesn't make sense any other way, despite your claims to the contrary.

>>714332147
I had him paired up with Donny and they were GODLIKE. They basically solo'd Priam's entire army.

>using a juggernaut with sol
How exciting.

>>714344119
>Get Wary Fighter from a friendship seal, and you'll have a monster of a tank in them.
But if you have 42 DEF and 47 RES + pairups, nothing will hurt you enough to make Wary Fighter worth it, except maybe wyrmslayers which is a positioning issue. Enemies on chapter 26 only have ~45-50 attack.

>>714274961
armors are beefy jagens with low mov

you use them as walls unitl you curate a real team or your true ironman team needs them

git gud

>>714323994
>Clears 90% of maps without wasting time on rescueshats before Wendy can even get to the frontline to even die to a generic enemy that shits on her at base
T-thanks for the help Wendy....

>>714348619
nice "beefy jagen" you got there bro

>>714348964
>17 levels lower
>only 2 less DEF and 5 less HP
I dunno, seems kinda beefy to me.

>>714335549
So cute.
Hate they imply she wants to fuck Samson.
At least they dont end together.

>>714347017
The idiot you’re talking to likes to pretend that ironmans are the way people play instead of an incredibly niche challenge run

>>714349713
They don't? Where does it say that?

>>714346758
Why's she making that face?

>>714350519
>pretend that ironmans are the way people play instead of an incredibly niche challenge run
I mean, metafags do exactly that with LTC runs all the time.

>>714350615
She pleading him to not leave her alone when you recruit her.

>>714344119
Does anyone actually let characters die in these games? It wastes a little time to reload I guess, but that's why the turnwheel is standard qol now.

You aren't a REAL GAMER if you use late game prepromotes instead of your early game shitters

>>714349713
>So cute
I love her, she's definitely my eternal FE3 scrimblo. People said she's bad even in FE3, but I don't think there are bad units in FE3 because of how the game is built. 20 stat caps and absolutely cracked stat boosters make it easy to Hulk anyone out, even if they missed the shard growth boosts. Sheema was pretty easy to start training on the thief reinforcements on the map after she joins, and never disappointed after she got rolling. Using Gradivus on the last maps is really nice. It's also neat that in FE12, she can use the Aum staff if you reclass her to a staff class because it's for 'princesses only' and she is one.

>>714351145
Don’t go on retarded tirades about ways no one plays. No one wants to read your stupid opinions.

Armors will never be good so long as Axe Stacies run the joint.
https://files.catbox.moe/pj1ub7.jpg

>>714351387
I ironman games if the base difficulty is too low. It leads to interesting challenges and often forces you to use suboptimal units

https://youtu.be/BJJZRNntphg?si=2xn9PBGp6RLMcSeN
Draw a cute FE girl please

>>714353074
Not that anon, but what's the most difficult one you're willing to ironman?

>>714351145
Where does that happen?
If there are really so many people pretending LTC runs are normal, wouldn't that mean those people actually play LTC?
But in all my time on 4chan I've never seen anyone play that way except myself

https://youtu.be/E5-BCfxBi9w?si=IfyDL31CjKaW7tcI

>>714353351
I only tried it for Birthright, FE8 and PoR. I think PoR was probably the hardest. I'm not that good at the game, but ironmaning makes those easier games challenging enough for me to be worthwhile.

>>714349223
>17 levels
What if Seth was 10/1?

>>714354085
Ugly ass artstyle.

>>714354085
citrinne can crit her!!

>>714348964
franz is only like 2 points behind in def too

You wouldn't this technial adult, would you?

>>714358437
I let Benny split her in half.

>>714358437
Is her hair really naturally two-toned?

>>714358437
My little sister can't be this sexy.

>>714270964 (OP)
Gatrie was my mvp in Radiant Dawn.

>>714322886
At least for the most part Elise was left alone aside from that one hamfisted SHE'S AN ADULT CALM DOWN PEOPLE line from Leo.
Effie might not be the only example but she's certainly the biggest example of a completely pointless change done solely because the lolcowlizer felt like it, zero justification for her butchering.