Is this the hardest JRPG ever made? I'm really getting my shit pushed in, the game doesn't tell you shit. Even SMT is easier cause you can just grind, but not with this one.

Nah, it's broken as shit and a babbified SaGa game.
>Even SMT is easier
SMT has never, ever been hard

>>714576094
>babbified
I've beaten Minstrel Song, Scarlet Grace, R2SR, all of them are easier than Last Remnant.

>>714576152
>Psionics: The Game
>Harder than any of MS or SSG
Lmao no

i grinded in my playthrough and got by just fine. i used the config tweak to manually equip my units though, fuck that gay shit

>>714575978 (OP)

I wouldn't call it he hardest but I would call it the most obfuscated. It has a leveling system for most things but none of them are ever explained or hell, even shown, to the player. The player is given almost zero control in combat, it's all RNG happening in the background determining everything. Hell the player can't even see the fucking map of the battlefield, you can end up in a situation where one party is too far from enemies and has to spend turn or more moving closer.

>>714576395
The leveling system is a straight line with only three stats that go up no matter what and basic proficiencies that are also a straight line.
You have plenty of control provided you build your unions right and you have a literal radar that lets you see where everything is.

>>714575978 (OP)
this one is harder i think. or at least more annoying, and equally obtuse

>>714575978 (OP)
Yeah pretty much what >>714576395 said, almost nothing about the mechanics is explained to you and its possible to brick yourself because you're thinking Battle Rating going up must be good because that's the level equivalent, only to find yourself bricked because your stats are literally too low to beat a boss (for me it was the Fallen right before the end of disc 1). I also remember the Nest of Eagles being a filter for a while since I had no idea how to trigger Gae Bolg but once you use it to wipe out half the of the mooks, it becomes super manageable.

>>714576487
You honestly have zero control over the outcome of a battle sometimes, you can't see if you're going to attack first or if the enemies is first, sometimes an attack you would like an ally to use they don't use, out of nowhere you get flanked by NPCs and you triple-checked if that was possible, but it's impossible to 100% guarantee.

>>714576574
I bought this game on PS3, PS4 and PC and never beat it. I'd always to get to the store where you can buy skirts for Leanne and spent hours making her do flips so I could see her panties and just got too distracted to continue the story.

>>714576487

There's like a dozen systems doing some sort of leveling up/xp gathering in the background and none of them are shown to the player. From battle ranking to skills to classes. And there's no real control in battle, it's rng which commands you are able to issue to each union and then it's rng which abilities each character in a union will use.

>>714576619
It's absolutely possible, but you have to understand how to build a union and how movement works.
>>714576648
No, you have genuinely no idea what you're talking about, the RNG is negligible, if you can't win reliably then you're just shit at building your unions and characters, in which case it's a (You) problem.
They even removed sparking coming from the SaGa games precisely to mitigate the RNG people like you love to complain about, the game is as barebones as it gets.

>>714575978 (OP)
The original 360 version might be. The other versions were severely nerfed after feedback.

>>714576824

Anon I like the game but compared to any other JRPG it hides the most mechanics from the player. Yes you can do your best to mitigate RNG but still the fact is that the player has very little actual control in battle and the game doesn't explain shit. A fully blind playthrough would easily miss half the game.

>>714576574
I found the enemy behavior in this game to be unusually annoying to plan around. Like you can usually assume in other strategy games that the enemies will always just come right at you so you plan around that. In RoF, a bunch of times enemies will just turn around and run away and just waste your action points when you're forced to approach them or turning to face a wall so your line of sight cant target one of their weak points. In some ways it's kinda ingenious but ends up being more frustrating than anything else.

That being said, I did like this game a lot. Everything just felt cool as hell, sick animations, fashionable clothing options, the general atmosphere and worldbuilding. Loved for there to be a sequel with some more character progression so it doesn't feel like you start the game with your full kit, and what I want most is the wacky gun customizations to actually show up on the models in game. I don't think it'll happen but I can at least cope since TriAce remembers Leanne enough to put her in Project X Zone and the Star Ocean gacha

>>714576574
You and everyone who has ever complained about this game being hard is over thinking shit. For the entire game all you need to do in 99% of cases is run around in triangles constantly doing tri-attacks and it unfortunately makes the game boring as fuck when you realize that.

>>714577013
You have complete control over the game's mechanics and battle. Dude, you getting a game over is not the game's fault, its not RNG. You're just a bad player.

the fact you get lost mid-battle and have to spend turns uniting the unions tell us everything we need to know about how bad you're at the game.

>>714575978 (OP)
Not really unless you're playing on a 360. The Steam version and others made the game way easier, its not different to other JRPGs nowadays.

>>714577590
>>714577686
People who are either baiting or played the game so many times they could speedrun it.

>>714575978 (OP)
>but not with this one.
Yes you can. I grinded every time I played through it. Yes the enemy strength scales with your BR, but there is a limit to their strength. The limit for your own strength is far beyond that.

I hate this game

>>714577858
I played it once.
>you can just grind, but not with this one.
Yes you can, that anti-grind bug was only present in the original game not the re-releases.

>>714577013
Look, I agree with you that a lot of shit is hidden, some for no good reason like the actual mechanics behind formations, but if you think the game is RNG then you're plain bad at it, it's actuallly far too deterministic on top of being unbalanced and overall poorly designed.
The fact that people insist on not being able to grind when the PC version especially relaxed the BR so much it doesn't really matter is why I can't take most of you people seriously, hell the game WANTS you to grind through the BR anyway because you simply can't learn new skills, recruit people or even start questlines if your BR is too low

>>714575978 (OP)
What's sad is a lot of games could be challenging but the internet makes it where people just look up guides then complain the game is too easy. ONI is a good example. /v/ regards that game as being too easy, because there's readymade solutions. But they spent 20+ hours following guides, watching hundreds of youtube videos, and copying other peoples builds just to say that.

It reminds me of valkyria chronicles. People looked up the best way to play the game, just to complain. The reason why people enjoyed games more as a kid had nothing to do with games being better. It was in a time before it was normalized to watch youtubers solve games for you. or to have discussions with other people to get their opinions on how you should play the game.

>>714576574
No dude this game was easy once you figured out how to play. 2 party members with machine guns to do all the damage and the last with a handgun to finish them off (it has a weird mechanic where damage doesn't register unless you shoot an enemy with a handgun, but of course handguns do terrible damage so you need both). Last Remnant is the fucking Demons Souls of jrpgs

>>714578629
>this dogshit image again
Jesuschrist.

>>714578629
>Last Remnant is the fucking Demons Souls of jrpgs
It's true in the sense that just like DeS it's an incredibly simple game that's been gassed to no end by a bunch of casuals who never played anything that wasn't a moviegame JRPG for children.

>>714575978 (OP)
It's not hard, it just arbitrarily hides information from the player.

no it's one of the etrian odysseys

>>714578537
I agree with you partially, but SaGa games (Last Remant is still SaGa, it's made by the same people) are so poorly explained that i can't imagine getting into any of the games (besides Romancing Saga 2 Remake) without looking up stuff like: "don't try to grind like in a traditiional JRPG, it will lock you out of fun side quests and unlockable party members".
Some games also have meme stats that will fuck you over in the long run, like Dark Souls. I remember my first time playing Dark Souls as a youngling back in 2011, what did i do? I only invested in Strength and Vitality. Got fucked, eventually dropped the game and was only interested in beating it after watching someone speedrunning it years later.

Just to expand a bit on the Dark Souls thing, one game that i didn't have to look anything up was Lies of P, because there was no trick stats, you can make due with every stat and you can even reset your stats and redistribute them as you like.

>>714577059
This game had some banger tracks in it as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRSL7mfQkoU&list=PLxVa-kGYoWqNu_cI3AOOF1K-cF9kWukBJ&index=21

This was just a random battle theme in one area of the game that I liked so much I would get into one fight whenever I passed by the area just to hear it.

>>714578798
you just explained that it's hard. If you were to take advanced math class, you could argue it's not hard, you just have information hidden from you that makes it seem challenging.

>>714575978 (OP)
It wasn't that hard.
The grind myth is false btw.

>>714575978 (OP)
I'm sure some Wizardry clone is harder but it's one of the tougher ones that's for sure, especially if you're not looking up anything up.

>>714578945
You shouldn't grind in traditional JRPGs either. Buffs and debuffs exist for a reason. Grinding is for retards who suck at videogames.

Heh, I remember this game, I wanted to fuck the milf so bad, and then they killed her, only to replace her with her daughter, now that I think about it that was anti-hag propaganda.

>>714578945
RS2R is just as poorly explained as the others, it doesn't feel like it to you because
a) you don't actually play those games
b) you don't know that the ingame tips either lie to you or don't really tell you the whole story
c) it's ultracasualized
The myth of SaGa games being unfair because they "hide" stuff from you when they do it on the same exact level of other JRPGs is something that only casuals parrot.
Also, just because some of the people who worked on SaGa made TLR doesn't mean it's a SaGa game, Racing Lagoon or FFCC are not SaGa games either.

>>714578945
Grinding is for people who don't know how to play games, and when they fail to understand mechanics they compensate by overleveling the enemies.

>>714578976
No, actual hard games test the player's skill in some way.

>>714579340
The ability to understand things without it being spoonfed to you through youtubers and online guides is a skill. So your skill was tested and you failed the test, that's why you're mad.

>>714575978 (OP)
Despite what most people believe, you can outgrind everything. The enemies each zone have a limited battle rank.

>>714579202
>RS2R is just as poorly explained as the others
Then it just clicked for me unexplicably, because after the remake i was able to go back and beat Minstrel Song, Scarlet Grace and do a couple of playthroughs of Emerald Beyond. The remake of 2 is the only reason i got into the SaGa series and am now going through most of them, and even Last Remnant (even if you think it isn't a SaGa game).

I do wonder, however, who the cater to with these games. I guess that's why they have a shoestring budget, JRPG is already kinda niche, but you make these hard games become niche withint a niche.

>>714579340
Smart people have mental skills that lets them solve things without people explaining it to them.

>>714578629
Most things in the image are outright wrong.

>>714579450
Yes, on the PC version this is fine. Everyone knows this.
What most people talk about is the 360 version (which hasn't been relevant for over a decade).

>>714579727
Its mostly talking about the 360 version. PC made everything way easier and its still too hard for most people.

>>714579514
They cater to fans of the series, which are admittedly nearly extinct because only hardcore fans can see past the budget visuals and appreciate the sheer autistic madness of Kawazu and his team.
That and the series is generally beloved by game design autists and actual game devs, even without considering all the spiritual successors you can find homages and stuff in other games or franchises, the next Bloodstained will use SaGa's trademark glimmering mechanics for instance.

>>714575978 (OP)
Oh I pirated this game ages ago. It wasn't that hard compared to other JRPGs like Saga or Suikoden.

Just looked into it and I can't buy the game anymore? STOP KILLING GAMES. I legit looked it up because I wanted to support Enix, I pirated their game because I was poor, and you won't even let me buy it nowadays?

>>714575978 (OP)

>>714580016
>(which hasn't been relevant for over a decade).
the 360 was 20 years ago

>>714580112
They only released the remaster on PS4, Switch and Mobile, and it was retardation not to keep the PC version up.

>>714578945
>i can't imagine getting into any of the games (besides Romancing Saga 2 Remake) without looking up stuff like: "don't try to grind like in a traditiional JRPG, it will lock you out of fun side quests and unlockable party members".

Most of us did get into these series without looking shit up.
The thing is that we used to play games multiple times and would choose different things to see what would happen. Many people could not afford more than a couple games per year or their parents couldn't, so you made the most with what you had. There were no Summer Sales with $5 games you racked up by the dozen for a "backlog" to one-and-done them like a list of chores.

>>714580156
I love this game to bits, even with all its rough spots and shitty decisions.

>>714580156
Fucking stoked for the inevitable Remaster.
Kawazu is the king of remasters, I really wish the rest of SE had his enthusiasm.

>>714580351
>Many people could not afford more than a couple games per year or their parents couldn't, so you made the most with what you had.

I limit myself to 3 games a year to replicate this feeling despite having disposable income.

>>714580618
I really wonder how he's going to "fix" Unlimited SaGa with the remaster

>>714580680
Well it's not broken, so I expect maybe an extra character scenario or just more clear instructions and explanations.

>>714580351
I think it's more of a mindset thing, if you become genuinely interested in the mechanics and wish to find out more by playing more, then SaGa feels just right and draws you in, but when your view is "this is so tedious my team sucks and all I can do is grind more" it's unsurprising that you'll get a negative impression

>>714580618
Unlimited SaGa looks so fun, that's the funniest part. If you didn't know it's brutal you would think the game is beginner-friendly.

>>714579450
You can't outgrind the endgame which is where people get softlocked. There's a boss rush somewhere near the end, and what happens is people save the game. and can't load to an older save by the time they realize they're fucked.

The fights get aggressively harder, where you are inching your way through each boss. and eventually it becomes too much, and at that point there's no more opportunities to grind and so you effectively need to start a new game if you didn't see it coming.

>>714575978 (OP)
in a weird way the game felt more complex after being told that the only way to play the game was to look at the wiki instead of just blindly playing it. Figuring out how to get specific classes feels like a science until I realized it was just saga shit.
I'm sure its frustrating if you're trying to fight the superbosses.

>>714581063
None of that matters, the only thing that matters is whether you are getting good stats each fight. your class doesn't matter, wiki doesn't matter.

>>714580618
>>714580680
Kawazu said that Unlimited might get something more than just a remaster, he made a twitter poll around a year or so ago where he asked people what they would like to see when it comes to Unlimited and a lot voted for leaving the main content as is but with various updates and fixes to the mechanics, which is something that exceeds the purpose of the usual SaGa remaster format.
After Frontier 2 Remastered came out he also said it will take a while until the next game, so Unlimited might be getting a remake rather than just a remaster, or something inbetween at least.

>>714580618
Looking forward to the remaster. I never got my hands on a copy back in the day so it was always "that mysterious game whose difficulty filtered everyone" to me

Is Romancing Saga really related to The Last Remnant? I liked the tactics along with building your armies, but RoSa doesn't seem to share those elements?

>>714575978 (OP)
renosence of fate is harder due to it being a bloated retarted mess

>>714581530
I never struggled with that, it only seems bloated and like a mess to low iq people

>>714581236
To be fair, Unlimited is actually one of the easiest SaGa in terms of content and enemies, it's just that the mechanics were so alien even for most SaGa players that deciphering the game itself was the hard part.
The dungeons are amazing though, Unlimited's dungeons and the dungeon crawling itself are really good regardless of how easy the game gets once you get good at it.
>>714581412
TLR's combat system is mostly a variant of Commander Mode from RS3, wouldn't even say it's strictly better because it lacks a lot of mechanics of commander mode even if it's largely streamlined and a bit more complex in some parts.
It's half Commander mode and half Ogre Battle really, other than that there's a lot of references to SaGa in general, not just the Romancing games, but it's not really a SaGa game, at best it's a vague derivative by virtue of being made by Takai with Kawazu's blessings.

>>714581126
I believe it but I definitely remember people telling me how I had to read the wiki or I could brick myself out of certain classes back when I got shilled this a decade ago.
Similarly I remember people telling me I had to ignore as many fights as possible in Minstrel Song because otherwise it would ruin my run when all it does is increment the event timer and lock out some quests because its a game you're meant to play multiple times.

>>714581182
I don't see how they could do a remake at all.
They're not going to redo the artwork, so it would have to be either some AI-upscaled mess or done in 3D which would fuck up the identity.

I don't think the game is all that difficult, it's just not a JRPG like advertised. It came out on the heels of FFX, and I think most potential players were expecting more of that cinematic story-centric focus from a Square RPG on the PS2 rather than a tabletop autism simulator. Most bounced off before they could give it a fair chance and get into the mindset for playing it.

>>714581670
those were the 360 kids feeding you lies

>>714581623
where did I say i struggled I called it a mess of a gameplay
I dont like read dead 2 but that games not fucking hard is it

so you got to the end of the game
enjoy a 3 stage boss fight where the boss is 20odd lvs higher then you
I stopped

The PC version made things much easier.

>>714581956
But anything IF/CH is hard because they want to stretch out a shitty game.

>>714581671
A remake that keeps most of the 2D assets but reworks core mechanics isn't really out of the question.
I also doubt that Kawazu of all people would get rid of Unlimited's gorgeous 2D sprites and animation, but it wouldn't be hard for him to pull a Odin Sphere: Leifthrasir deal where he keeps the core 2D assets but reworks everything else, he did say he wasn't satisfied with how Unlimited turned out so I can see something more than just a remaster deal for this entry in particular.

>>714582220
I saw the whole you can have kids thing and thought that was the coolest shit as a teen, didn't care the game was ugly I still even brought the limited editon of 2 but your right those games was shitty as fuck 2 might be a 6

>>714582312
I'm worried how much he can really change on the shoestring budget that SaGa usually gets.

>>714582718
If he managed to make something as brutally autistic as Emerald Beyond with no cash and a team of 20 people or so he can rework Unlimited's mechanics just fine, it probably won't be a Minstrel Song kind of deal, but I trust him and I know how much he cares.

>>714575978 (OP)
it's hard if you play normally. it's really easy if you exploit the glenys quest bug chain farm thing. I did that and steamrolled the rest of the game as a test recently.

I wanna buy this game on steam not on the snitch or ps4

>>714583275
Get a key from one of the various key sellers, it's just delisted, you can still download it.

>>714583347
help a nigga out which site of the ones selling the gameis legit? I'm Black btw

>>714583484
I don't know nigga, check GMG or Fanatical, I don't really buy keys myself

>>714581671
They're probably going to rework the reel. People get triggered by it even though it's an abstraction for your success at an action, AND it gives the player more of a chance at success than a die roll which is what a reel check essentially is.

People that play video games are not ready for a more traditional approach of a RPG. Unlimited Saga just needs faster menu navigation. It doesn't need anything altered, everything has to do with the player rather than the game.

>>714576574
Nah, that one is NOWHERE near as bad the Last Remnant. You just have to learn the stupid "press forward while firing automatically" system to do triangle-attacks with the party and then grind hexes to unlock/push forward on the world map.

It was an interesting system, but not fully baked out.

>>714575978 (OP)
This, meanwhile, was dogshit because of the lack of tutorials and copying the dogshit SaGa series.

>>714583484
Is it true black people can see smells? Kind of an echolocation but for their noses.

>>714575978 (OP)
it's the fucking autolevel. Don't level too much and it'll be easier

>>714583689
>It doesn't need anything altered
It needs a shitton of fixes, just to name a few
>Being able to dump panels so you're not forced to handicap yourself
>Reworked spell tablet learning, either much faster exp. progression or make spell learning chance RNG like the other games
>Stronger enemies, most of the enemies in the game are ridiculously weak
>Better % of getting certain panels, especially Magic Blender since spellcasters are seriously gimped without it while weapon users need a third of the investments to come online
>Less exploitable economy, you get far, far too much money if you know what you're doing, market ranks should also be rebalanced a bit
>Update NG+ to the modern standard where you decide what to carry over rather than being forced to play with super market ranks
And that's just some of the basic issues they need to address

>>714575978 (OP)
The PC version isn't hard at all. The 360 version was, but only because of its retarded systems that even the devs had to admit were retarded. Never tried the remaster, so I don't know what they changed.

>>714584117
false, stop spreading misinformation

>>714581670
this goes back to the point that listening to other peoples opinions is what ruined games for people. not the actual game. you hate what you heard, not the actual game.

>>714575978 (OP)
Last Remnant is easy once you read an explanation of it's out of the norm leveling and then scaling system. But then it becomes piss boring because it's like following a strict diet where you can't just enjoy the gameplay as you like.

>>714584651
That's all games you idiot. You read a guid explaining the best way to play a game, it ruins the game itself.

>>714583689
the reel is really easy once you realize the reset tech.

>>714584146
None of that is what the average person complained about on the other hand.

>>714584146
>>Stronger enemies, most of the enemies in the game are ridiculously weak
wat. the later battle rank enemies are like minibosses. it's pretty easy to get fucked up in ventus campaign is you push the rank to max with carrier missions.

>>714581671
>made in 3D

Anon, every JRPG since the fifth generation has been in 3D. They just billboarded the graphics.

>>714585304
The average person isn't really going to tell you what needs to be fixed in Unlimited because they get filtered in the first 20 minutes and never touch the game again.
>>714585479
Even if you fight to the point you end up getting stuff like Cosmic Sage or Tagut to spawn as a common enemy, which is very hard due to how monster ecology works, they're all piss easy by then, and it doesn't change the fact that everything inbetween BR 1 and them is weak as shit.
Unlimited has a serious problem with enemy balance, it's why so many players experience whiplash when they finally get to the final boss because suddenly the game wakes up and forces you to play for real while everything else is just training wheels, the only common enemies you have to fear are the fucking fish because they're actually balanced properly, everything else is woefully undertuned.

>>714585628
You know what I mean.

SE doesn't have artists who can replicate those sprites anymore, which is why new assets have not been made for any of the remasters yet, justs AI upscales of old stuff or cut content that was already in the files.

>>714585964
Naora has long since gone freelancer, but he's still on very good terms with Kawazu and has worked on some of his recent projects even after going freelance, I'm sure that he'd be up to work on Unlimited again given the chance.
Unlimited's is also in a good spot when it comes to its 2D assets because they were made at a higher resolution than the PS2 native one, which is one of the reasons why they upscale to modern resolutions so well, they really shouldn't need to touch anything up outside of the 3D parts of the game.

>>714586456
That's good of course, but I was referring to creating new assets for a remake.

Probably just the nebulous definitions of remakes and remasters fucking up the conversation. I consider a "remake" to be an old concept made from the ground up with new assets, while a "remaster" uses the same assets and just optimizes or enhances them with modern tech.

I remember downloading the demo for this back on 360.
I enjoy complex games, but when the game is just a black box of things happening, sometimes it doesn't feel worth learning. Perhaps if it had some flair to peak my interest, but it was very "7th gen" looking and sounding.

>>714586750
Yeah, new assets would be a problem, but I doubt we'll get anything significant when it comes to that outside of maybe some new enemies.
At best I can see being able to recruit Jean Maure and maybe Leon in some scenarios, but even there it's kinda dubious, they didn't make any new recruitables for RS3's remaster unlike the other entries, so Unlimited will probably be the same unless Kawazu's allowed to splurge, and if he's allowed to splurge then worrying about new assets won't be a problem either.

>>714587045
If they allow him to splurge, I highly doubt US would be the game they choose for it. That would have been Frontier or RS3.

I'm intrigued that they have Xeen working on SaGa now, which shows more confidence in the brand than I thought. It's not just Kawazu's pet project to keep an oldhead busy anymore.

>>714575978 (OP)
I beat the PC version on release easily without looking shit up and I didn't find it difficult. Yes, I missed some of the toughest quests (they have rather obtuse requirements).

People call it hard because of the original xbox version, I assume. I doubt you're playing the xbox version.

>>714587267
Unlimited is one of Kawazu's dearies so it doesn't really matter what the suits think.
>which shows more confidence in the brand than I thought.
If anything it shows the opposite given they took it off Kawazu's hands to give to a bunch of newbies, and then they tailored the RS2 remake for the Octopath crowd and other casuals rather than fans of the series, they're using the series to deepen their business partnership with Xeen more than anything and train their staff, if they actually cared they wouldn't have waited for so long to do something like that either, they would have done it the moment the RS3 remaster became a top selling game on Steam or something.
Kawazu being near retirement also means they're trying to find somebody else to work with their IPs to prepare for the future, but looking at RS2R and the other franchises that met that end I don't really have any hope for the future.

>>714586910
The remaster looks great, to be fair. Way better than on the 360, so if graphics bother you that's not a problem anymore, imo.
But the fucking game is HARD.

>>714587464
the toughest quests is what causes people to get softlocked, they grind for them and then get softlocked on endgame.

>>714585857
>stuff like Cosmic Sage or Tagut to spawn as a common enemy
I was thinking more like 4x Tao-Tie

>>714576094
>SMT has never, ever been hard
except
>gets one shotted by mudo
>hours of progress stolen

>>714588576
Is the 'you get punished for grinding' meme even true in TLR? I heard the same thing about RS2, it turns out you grow WAY faster than enemies and grinding actually trivializes the game. I have a sneaking suspicion sagafags simply don't know SHIT about their games

>>714588321
Yeah, the praise this game has received over the years has made me interested. Not getting into a demo isn't a big deal, and I've heard that the 360 version is worse anyway.
As a note, I like the Romancing Saga games, but none of the other Saga games really appealed to me much.

>>714590158
People who tell you you're punished for grinding don't play SaGa games, the only game where that is kinda true is Minstrel Song.
It's true that grinding in SaGa requires more finesse than the average RPG though and most people don't know how to do it.

>>714575978 (OP)
its not hard. the problem is that its SO FUCKING BORING

>>714581236
Unlimited Saga is more obtuse than flat out difficult. Also imo it has the worst combat system of all Saga games which is what can be off putting once you do start to get into it, but everything else surrounding the adventure mechanics is pretty neat. Game has an awesome soundtrack and some really crispy sprites, too.

>>714590158
it's a mixture. the scaling is much more bracketed in TLR but it has certain minimum ranks. like if your battle rank is 20 and boss has minimum challenge level of 30 you are bit underpowered for the encounter. but the boss might have scaling where it's the minimum boss for 30-34 but if your battle rank is 35 he gets upgraded moves and stats of challenge level of 40-45. my point is that you shouldnt avoid battles because you end up underpowered, but you shouldnt grind because then bosses end up overpowered. you kinda have to know what enemies are considered hard and yield lots of growth and then focus spending your battle rank increases on them.

>>714590158
It is a "fact" that was spread back before the games were properly translated to English, and it stuck. If you fast forward grind against the lowest level mobs in a RS game, you won't have any sparks to beat bosses or harder mobs, but that is such a weird and unlikely thing.
People told me to avoid random encounters and it made my first game way harder than it should have been.

>>714591070
Nope, it truly is hard. Grinding can be boring if you're not into it, the game is simply hard because you barely have any control of what the characters do and so much is RNG-based.

>>714591082
>Also imo it has the worst combat system of all Saga games
Can't be true when things like the GB games, SNES RS1, SF2 or RS2R exist, the only major problem of Unlimited's combat is that the formation system is too one dimensional, other than that it just needs better balance as it's too easy to get powerful enough to just mash through most of the game.

>>714576574
I disagree.
The first three chapters are filters, but if you survive them, get used to the gameplay, figure out how to balance machine guns and handguns and upgrade the equipment, the game is extremely easy.
I defeated the pope/last boss in one or two turns.

>>714590158
>>714591152
I hear the same sentiment about FF2 and FF8. I mostly hear bitching about SaGa from the FF crowd in general, anything slightly off center about growth mechanics just rustles their fucking jimmies and they cannot deal

>>714590158
only the first romancing saga game punishes grinding and even then just the minstrel song remake which made bunch of the permanent quests expire. the snes version of romancing saga is built around grinding and the punishment mostly comes from the gold cap/jewel which is visually told to player like stop grinding now and go back to town.

>>714591519
It's funny how much these people complain about needing to grind in a JRPG, but then as soon as they get the impression that they cannot simply grind to win they lose their minds, whether it's true or not.

>>714591348
SF2 definitely has way better combat. RS2 is also more fun despite the new mechanics being unnecessary.

the game has a ton of mechanics and the majority of them you need to know to really make plays. When I was trying to explain the game to my friend I sounded like an absolute schitzo when I was talking about deadlocks. Still one of the few games that made me feel like a giga genius when I could regularly pull of flanks, disengage from a deadlock and then have what were essentially cavalry intercept the pursuer. Might be the only RPG where there was actual high risk/high reward plays you could do like retreating from a deadlock

>>714591348
I like the snes RS1 combat system but I concede that the party formation breaking every other battle is like a constant start to finish nuisance that never can really be solved no matter what you do. even if you give everyone halberds or axes for tomahawk the constant menuing is really killing the pace.

>>714592060
>SF2 definitely has way better combat.
No way, SF2 combat is an actual mess, the character building is terrible, you're stuck with a party of four, the game is even more unbalanced than Unlimited and was for all intents and purpose a betatest of a lot of things Unlimited would actually do right

>>714575978 (OP)
Its one of the easier SaGa games...

>>714575978 (OP)
>Is this the hardest JRPG ever made? I'm really getting my shit pushed in, the game doesn't tell you shit.
That's because the game is secretly JRPG American football and if you're unfamiliar with football you won't know proper tactics

>>714592489
This is unironically a great way to explain how movement and deadlocks work

>>714592489

Which SaGa game is the Kinoest?

>>714575978 (OP)
>hardest
doubt it, but it's not intuitive with a lot of mechanics and actively punishes you for grinding.
if you want to go full autism with the abilities and squad progressions though then you'll pretty much need to have the wiki on hand while playing.

>>714593154
saga frontier 2 no doubt. kinoest story and as a result the worst ludo in the series.

>>714593154
All of them have lots of kino moments, it's hard to say, some people will tell you it's Frontier, some will tell you it's RS2, it depends on what resonates the most with you, all of them have heartfelt moments and endearing characters, there's also some masterful moments of game design like Firebringer's intro or Diva's version of the final boss in EB.

>>714593562
Was it though? The sheer number of characters and lack of development of any of them means you can't invest in them. Characters disappear and receive no resolution if they received any development at all. Example: What happened to Tyler? A really more important one would be what happened to Elanor since her boytoy, Sargon, became an elemental lord.

This shit was so bad they had to introduce an extra bit of detail for all of the elemental lords because if you just played the game on PS1 you had no idea who the fuck Mot was other than a bad guy who becomes the Earth Lord. In the remake now you know is he's a runner who fucked up and led a unit at South Moundtop.

>>714575978 (OP)
this is one very confusing game.

>>714594372
Tyler eventually dies of old age like a lot of people, you see that with Narcisse already so there's no point in having a chapter for every SF2 boomer dying, you get that with Narcisse, you get that with Kelvin, you see Nebelstern bidding farewell to Gustave days before he succumbs to his illness, doing it for every character in such a huge cast becomes just bloat at some point.
It is true that SF2 used to have a lot of characters that were awfully underused though, and the remaster fixed a lot of that shit, thankfully, that also doesn't invalidate all the good stuff you see either way, it's fine to just leave some things open ended as long as it's not too much like the original release.

>>714576094
You got a play on hard obviously

>>714594372
>The sheer number of characters and lack of development of any of them means you can't invest in them.
I enjoy the fact that some of these characters arent written to conveniently to matter in multiple different story arcs. they serve their purpose in the overarching narrative and then move on. like what happened to tyler. does that really matter for the story of gustave or the story of the egg? apparently not if it wasnt told.

>>714590158

It's true in that if you grind levels against weak enemies like it was FF or something you can get screwed. You don't really get much stronger that way but especially some later bosses get much stronger as your battle rank increases.

The game wants you to explore semi-hidden side areas that reward you with the best units and the longer each fight lasts the better for your progress. So ideally you either fight really strong enemies or chain together as many enemies in a single fight as possible. You can get fucked if you just keep grinding weak enemies 1 by 1 for hours.

>>714594772
Hard mode in TLR doesn't change anything other than bloating enemy stats, it's still Psionics central but this time you actually have a reason to fully upgrade equipment and care about formations so you can spam psionics more efficiently.

>>714575978 (OP)
It's very experimental. You can see they wanted to try out many new systems in a game, and they didn't have the guts to call the game Final Fantasy fearing some of these experiments may fail and drag the game down.

If you're having difficulty, it's probably the BR system.
Grinding in this game puts you at a permanent disadvantage.

After the fight, your BR (level) is compared to the monsters you defeated, and if there is little difference, you only get some HP and damage. But if the enemies were much stringer, you get an almighty AP action point. And our BR will eventually go up regardless.
The game is about avoiding all combat if possible, and then stringing together many strong enemies to make sure you get AP on level up.

>>714594749
Considering that Tyler helps Wil out from the beginning to the end of Wil's career, before he retired, he should have had something mentioned. He worked with the man for over twenty years. Old Wil, before going to save Ginny, saying to Diana, or to himself when talking to Diana, "I'm going on my own. Tyler and Narcisse both retired and I'm not taking my dear Labelle with me." (Come to think on it, was his wife even alive at that point? I don't recall seeing Old Wil with them.)

>>714595916
obviously 80 year old labelle divorced wil and married 100 year old tyler. thats why wil doesnt mention either, he's so mad at both. they should had included that chapter in the game because we needed that closure.

>>714594749
>>714591348
>>714591152
>>714588025
>>714587045
threadly reminder that this signaturefaggot, also know as niemand, haa been terrorizing all saga related threads for over 10 years with his worthless walls of texts and excesive use of commas

>>714595882
I did the PC Ultimate Grind thing for awhile, my highest BR was 12 at the end of disc 1 (where they make you fight pretty much 3 bosses back to back to back, the last one you can't even leave the place you're in until you finish the boss fight).
It doesn't matter, i feel like this game doesn't want you to win at all and it wastes your time constantly. I have a bunch of great games to play, i honestly gave an honest try (about 20 hours, end of the first disc) and i'm done.

It's too hard, too RNG dependent, all of that. You will get 50 runs where you die in 1 or 2 turns, then one run where you will dodge/block whatever was killing you and only then you stand a chance... then at the end the boss still one hit kills you and you gotta start all over.
I'm done.

>>714595916
Narcisse died when Rich was a rookie digger and iirc Tyler was already dead by the time Ginny ran away from home, and I think Cody/Labelle are also dead by that point, Wil should be the only one from that generation who's still alive by that point.

>>714596353
Tyler being a half wolf means he'd live a lot longer than a normal person.

There’s a fine line between fun hard and tard hard

>>714596326
your BR is way too low for a normal casual playthrough. you fell for the meme. you should be like BR 30 at the very least at the end of disc 1.

>>714596472
Iirc Tyler died a couple of years after the siege of the Citadel during a hunting expedition or something, he does not outlive Wil.

>>714596353
>>714596712
And if you only play the game how are you supposed to know this?

>>714596847
You don't need to

>>714596847
If you only play the game you do not care about the story.

>>714596847
You're supposed to get that by the simple fact that Tyler stops appearing in the story and his death is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
If you want to get angry at Square for not releasing all the ultimania and side material in the west you'd be right to, but that was a common issue with anything japanese.

>>714596847
it's an irrelevant footnote to the chronicle of gustave and wil. just like fake gustave's origin story. we dont need to know he was some miner who found a quel that fucked him up. his only relevance to the story begins when he decides to become nu-gustave.

>>714596326
Then you were probably too low.
You should not be massively underleveled, you should still level up, just choose the right enemies to level up on. To make sure you get actual stats when you level up.

If you level up properly, you will eventually get to spam skills non stop.

But yes, I remember I felt the same frustration when I played long ago.
After a while I just got a tool to reset my BR to lower so I don't have to sneak around and restart and all that, it was a hassle. After that the game was much more enjoyable. I played longer low BR, but don't remember much of the game anymore. I think I played "honestly" until I got the cute girl >>714595882

Another thing I remember is don't bother to try to upgrade everyone's weapons. Grinding for that was a hassle, and iirc it's also missable if you're too high BR for the ingredients to drop (can't remember anymore though)

>>714597775
Oh, and, I'm not pushing you to finish this.
I finished the game back then, and thought it was decidedly average, nothing super interesting in its story or such.
So it's completely ok to drop it if you don't enjoy it.

>>714597775
>Another thing I remember is don't bother to try to upgrade everyone's weapons.
it's not that big of a deal to farm materials but there are caveats. for one, some upgrades require green materials which can only be harvested if you have completed certain guild quests. like if you neglect the rare monster quests you will get roadblocked with upgrades eventually. there's a catch up mechanic though which I dont know how well it works. your party members gain gold and will just buy upgrades if you tell them fuck off enough times when they ask for you to go farm them for weapon upgrades. but I have no idea how well that works because I always upgrade the weapons or let them request a weapon I bought/crafted myself.

>>714597775
Materials don't stop dropping in TLR, since you do get more and more magazines though the drop pool gets larger so they sorta become harder to get, especially because some monsters are fairly uncommon and a pain to farm.

>>714575978 (OP)
I don't know about wiki when I beat this game the first time
It's hard and I have to retry bunch of fights but It's not impossibly hard
In fact, I think going in blind make the game more fun for me as you unlock more things and be like what?
Yes, I miss a lot of optional content but I still remember the first time I get blackout attack and be like holy shit

>>714578629
they fixed the grind in the steam version, all you have to do is not fight linked fights of 1 or 2, that's it, you get more xp the more you link and higher drop chances, so linking 4+ will make you a monster dps machine.

THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR GRINDING

STOP LISTENING TO MEMES FROM 2006.

>>714599208
*2008

>>714597775
How is having low BR a bad thing? I'm genuinely ask, because i thought all it did was make enemies harder. Does it influence the morale meter or something?
I thought grinding for stats was the grinding to do.

I'm going to have it another go next year or so, i can't be bothered anymore.

>>714600053

Extremely low BR is just a general indication that you've basically avoided all the fights and thus your party has really low stats. Like sure some boss may get a new aoe ability at BR 30 so you'd prefer facing it before that. But on the other end the boss will destroy your party if you go in at rank 10 or something since the boss doesn't scale down their stats and you're clearly underleveled.

>>714600053
BR in The Last Remant is what you call in other games "levels" ever heard of that term?

If the boss (Misty) is level 20 and you're level 10. Then you're shit out of luck to beat Misty. Just fucking grind until you're level 20 if you can't beat the boss. Of course the game never tells you what BR the boss is so you have to trial and error.

>I thought all it did was make the enemies harder
see:
>>714599208

Literally nothing of that era is correct, nothing. /v/ made up a bunch of lies and now literally everyone believes them. Just play the game as you would play any other game.

>>714600053
It's not a bad thing in itself. But it's hard to level stats and arts without gaining any BR, if you skip everything you'll end up underpowered. Bosses have a minimum challenge level, they are not balanced around a minimum level party.

>>714600053
For starters, characters other than Rush only learn new skill trees at certain BR thresholds, want Torgal to learn Bluff and shit? he can't until you reach BR35 or so, want Wyngale to learn Wards? Can't do that until you're BR77.
You're correct in that BR also influences starting morale, if your BR is too low then you'll start off with minimum morale against certain enemies, this is not necessarily a bad thing however since BR does act as one of the many EXP multipliers, so beating high BR enemies at low BR means you get a lot more EXP. than you'd normally would.
Every area in the game has its own BR floor and ceiling as well, so there's really no need for you to worry about getting into high BR, the game wants you to do so, what matters is how you get there because having high BR=/=having an actually good team, which is what a lot of people don't really explain to you.

>>714600843
but don't hit level 23 or misty upgrades to level 30

Just beat the enemy if you run into them and chain them if possible
There, you can now beat the game
Stop worrying too much about BR and shit, min/max makes the game boring

>>714601405
Worse, min/max hard filters gullible anons like >>714596326 who end up running into a level 40+ boss at BR12

>>714601286
Yeah I left that out on purpose. No need to scare the newfriends lol

>>714575978 (OP)
Last Remnant's main story path will always be easy/manageable even if you play incorrectly, but some optional fights will become impossible if you grind and don't go out of your way to level a set of specific skills.
Still, it's not gonna be as difficult as games where the main story path is also obnoxiously hard like picrel

>>714593154
Frontier 2 for me, but they all got their moments.

I think the worst about Last Remant is early game, where you are genuinely weak with barely enough members to fill 2 Unions, some gimmick bosses like 3 round death counter lmao or unlimited overdrive memers and the fucking dungeon, where you are only running with Rush and Emma/Emmy(forgot which one it is at that point anymore).
overall its fun doe

>>714602865
>and the fucking dungeon, where you are only running with Rush and Emma
ah yes the "rush gets class locked to healer for half the game" quest

>>714602865
Early game in TLR fucking blows not because you're limited to a bunch of people, but because the skill learning is BR gated so you're stuck with nothing but extremely basic shit, and Rush needs to complete a shitload of MMO tier quests to even unlock his own skill trees, nevermind getting new formations, magazines and stuff, tons of annoying and pointless busywork for shit that should be available at a baseline level.

>>714603203
my favorite is wards being locked behind a very easily missable superboss lmao

chances of the remaster coming to Steam?

>>714603660
It's been years by now and they still haven't ported it for some reason, chances are pretty slim.

>>714576094
Show me your Nocturne hard mode save RIGHT NOW.

>no TLR2 that fully leans into its SaGa influences with selectable protagonists and free-scenario

>>714576574
Game is so easy you don't need to understand what you're doing to beat it.

>>714584146
F for the guy whose trying to 100% all PS2 games. This one was rough.

>>714602814
Give it to me straight, sempai.
Red pill on labyrinth of Touhou. I heard many interesting things about it.

>>714603964
It's not impossible I guess, but with SaGa actually releasing games regularly now and Takai being stuck in the Final Fantasy dungeon you won't see that anytime soon.

>>714603203
I mean thats the part where you are really weak, shit union/members, no skills. takes forever till the game opens up.

>>714604391
It's not Labyrinth of Touhou, it's Genius of Sappheiros - LoT's autistic, retardedly difficult but less fun cousin. Funnily enough, also inspired by SaGa like Last Remnant

>>714605801
>Genius of Sappheiros
Ah, that one.
I did play it, some of it at least. Think i made it long enough to get to the scarlet devil mansion. And yeah, it was really tough, i recall struggling a lot with the few bosses and enemies.

>>714575978 (OP)
"Difficult" really isn't the way to describe TLR. "Convoluted" is more accurate.

>>714576574
>obtuse
There's a whole tutorial available in the first 5 minutes of the game.