We hate the heroes journey now and every games storyline arc needs to be subversion, deconstruction or riddled with sarcasm. Why?

>>714838696 (OP)
Hero’s Journey was always lame. It should be used to analyze stories that have already been written, but instead writers use it a soulless template.

>>714838861
t. woke-pandering modern game story writer
Just because you can't think of how to write it in an interesting and compelling way doesn't mean it isn't possible

>>714838696 (OP)
Marvel writing replaced sincerity. Thats pretty much it.

All you had to do was play based Dragon Quest. Don't call it a grave, it's the future you choose.

>>714838696 (OP)
Why the bulge on that stick figure?

>>714838696 (OP)
Because its stands out. I've seen a lot of these lately in other media (japanese web novel) subverting common cliches left and right just so they don't get drown in the sea of millions of other works on the mainstream media and hopefully get picked up by a publisher. Because why the fuck the customers would even look at normal adventure game story when they have Dragon Quest / Final Fantasy / etc? I think Yoko Taro once talk about it in a video.

>>714838696 (OP)
>we

Kill yourself.

>>714838696 (OP)
Pfft, nice sword, faggot.

>>714838696 (OP)
Hero's journey has always been a lazy way of storytelling

>>714839071
You were literally complaining that people don’t play the hero’s journey straight, and now you’re saying writers have to find some interesting way to use it, which is it?
In the first place, the Hero’s Journey was made as a framework to discuss many different kinds of stories, that’s what it’s good at. When you use it to WRITE your story in stead, you’re just making templated slop. Stories that follow the hero’s journey straight can absolutely be good, but if you make following it the goal and not the byproduct, then you’ll likely be left with something by the numbers and predictable

>>714838696 (OP)
For the same reason songs aren't just a straight repetition of the do re mi fa sol scale over and over.

>>714839071
The Hero's Journey isn't even wholly accurate as there's plenty of tales that don't follow its template. Gilgamesh wasn't reluctant to start journeying which is one of the key aspects of the Hero's Journey.

>>714839131
may Joss Whedon burn in hell for his sins

>>714839131
>for the love of god
umm shouldn't it be "for the love of science"?

>>714838696 (OP)
Hero's journey fucking sucks. Ohh he's just a normal guy. Woah is he gonna reject that call to adventure? And now he's actually going on it, who could have guessed!

>>714839131
I think the bottom works, but not the top

>>714838696 (OP)

>>714838696 (OP)
>We hate the heroes journey now and every games storyline arc needs to be subversion, deconstruction or riddled with sarcasm. Why?

Go work hard and see what you are given for doing so, OP

>>714838696 (OP)
Normieniggers utterly loathe introspection.

>>714838696 (OP)
For me, the hero's journey is:

isekai was a mistake

Why not neither? Like make something new for once.
You can be sincere without doing tired troupes.

>>714838696 (OP)
rather start as nobody and end as nobody

>>714840247
The only time it's ever been done in recent memory totally straight and doesn't seem hackneyed is >>714840573 and that's just because John Milius had talent.

it's all about the slow life now

>>714840190
Haha, funky meme, but your God still isn't real and you still aren't white, Amerimutt.

>>714839529
To emphasize that heroes should always be male.

>>714840926
What about an excited, exuberant troupe? Like a circus?

>>714840259
To me both don't work because Tony just had a near death experience and is laying amidst the rubble and death toll of hundreds of people. It would be like Aragorn joking with Frodo after the battle of the black gate and going "mondays am i right?" Completely undercuts the emotional weight of the situation. Also people don't quip when they're near death. Yeah I know Coulson survives cause of some Disney+ show nobody watched but I guarantee you nobody is going to be quipping when bleeding out.

how about we make a game about the hero's meth addiction instead?

>>714839705
There are million of irony poisoned stories. They don't stand out.

>>714841195
The latter is someone making a joke to make the situation lighter. Tragic on its own way.

>>714840573
Crom…

>>714841118
This is unironically Skyrim's draw, I bet.

>>714841297
No there's not. Hundreds of thousands perhaps, but thery're still a fraction of the amount of straight ones we have

>>714841119
American derangement syndrome

>>714840573
god conan is so fucking good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMVmW0k9jZI

>>714841119
I can't wait till the Muslims are the overwhelming majority and every person who mocks Jesus gets killed for insulting literally the second most important man in Islam.

Fucking burn you kuffar. A Christian can a ascend to Muslim. An atheist can ascend to corpse.

>>714841549
shame about the sequel

>>714838696 (OP)
Westerner creators hate everything that's genuine and sincere because they themselves aren't genuine and sincere.
They also want to identify with the villains instead of the heroes for some reason.

>>714839131
Joss Whedon deserves the fucking rope for what he did to modern media writing.

>>714841428
Yes, they are. Disney/Marvel is the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the planet and all their products are irony poisoned. Japan media is also irony poisoned with isekais. They don't stand out because they're the same. Sincere media is the new rebel.

>>714841634
>we should appeal to the modern audience!

>>714838696 (OP)
Do you mean character development? Because that still happens, at least for some characters. I do feel people now a days have less patience for it, and would rather have strong first impressions instead for most characters.

>>714841428
And at the very least those ironic games are not having to compete with the giants that played the cliche straight. This is also why every """"dating sim"""" is ironic subversive trash, weebs would 100% buy actual japanese games instead of their games even if the romance is played straight. Katawa Shoujo only stands out because it's free, otherwise it's just alright compared to 1 million moege already on the market.

>>714841710
Ah yes, the famously irony poisoned Snow White or Lion King. Retard.

Fantasy is total trash anymore because it's just modern man and modern psychology in a disney world.

>>714841195
Yeah, I don't like the Tony bit either. But the bottom is more of a simple quip, kinda like a soldier who has already accepted he's dead. Tony's quip clashes with the moment, and ruins it entirely. but i get you

>>714841119
Nerve status? STRUCK.

>>714841909
nu-Snow White was irony poisoned in how it was trash girlboss shit and Lion King remake was just trash in general, the only thing it was sincere about was being crap

>>714841943
probably why "isekai" is so popular. you get to bring all that modern baggage with the protag and they are immediately unique in the world of country bumpkins.

>>714841195
>Also people don't quip when they're near death.
Holy shit what an insipid argument. People don't do a lot of things that they do in media. Fiction isn't real. Something as minor as this should not be so devastating to your verisimilitude.
In before you try that ridiculous deflection about a honda accord being the same as dragons and wizards. No, idiot, not what we're talking about. Fictional people do a lot of shit with their last breaths. The idea that it must always be a raspy gurgle as you choke on your own blood is inane.

>>714838696 (OP)
There are no "heroes". Real people are rotten, those who succeed do so on the corpses of others.

>>714838696 (OP)
>Caring about """story""" instead of the game it self
Are you a woman or something?

>>714842235
That's a damn good post for 2010.

>>714842072
>nu-Snow White

Who the fuck is talking about nu-Snow White?

>>714841571
>ascend
devolve*

>>714842228
Your whole post is latched on to his last tidbit and completely disregarded his main point.
The quip just doesn't fit there. It's out of place and ruins the moment.

>>714842346
Me, the other guy whose conversation I rudely butted into, and presumably you
Because why the fuck would you bring up classic media from 20-odd years ago when people are talking about the modern phenomenon of everything being irony poisoned? What, did you just see someone make a sweeping statement and decide what you had to do was posture for a cheap irrelevant "ACKSHULLY" gotcha?

>>714841195
>death toll of hundreds of people
You mean 76
That's right, an alien invasion in downtown manhattan during peak hours on a work day killed less than one hundred people

All I'm getting from this thread is that anything with more narrative depth than The Very Hungry Caterpillar is maoist subversive wokeshit

>>714842598
One of those flying worms crashes into a subway station, another flattens an entire building and Hulk and Thor ragdoll many more into several buildings. I mean when Tony destroyed the mothership they all went inactive and in archive footage, they literally are crash into buildings and parts of the street. This is some Power Rangers levels of collateral damage.

>>714842454
>The quip just doesn't fit there
Yes it fucking does, it's a tragic last laugh. He still got one over on the villain and gets to have a smug last moment about it.

>>714841119
Fon't worry, In a generation or two your descendents. who will be named Mohammed, won't be white either.

>>714838696 (OP)
The hero's journey isn't just a lazy reused story structure. It basically has to work this way. If it was erased from existence we would recreate it by necessity.

The hero has to start out normal because
>the viewer relates to them better
>the hero can grow over time
>the viewer can slowly learn about the world as the hero grows and learn things instead of getting infodumped on with exposition
Since the hero starts out normal they need a call to adventure to change things.
Since the hero is normal they have to change to face the challenges of the adventure.
They have to change quickly and get some guidance on what to do, so they have a mentor.
They need some time to grow so they face some challenges along the way.
You need a twist along the way to keep this from getting boring.
The hero is changed by the journey because it would be impossible not to be.
The bad guy is defeated because that's how all stories work (except horror films).
He returns home after the journey because where else would he go?

You can subvert a few of these to keep the viewer on their toes, but not for free.

>>714838861
Hating classics is the epitome of soulless. If you can't appreciate where we came from, you have no fucking clue where you're going.

>>714842804
>it's a tragic last laugh

>>714841119
kek what the fuck
unhinged

>>714842804
Guess really anytime is good for a crappy little joke. Why aren't you appending one to each of your posts then?

>>714842761
Yep
76 deaths
and that horrid tragedy is why the avengers had to fight each other in a terrible rip off of an already horrid event
>>714842885
Yes faggot, he got to shoot loki in the face with his last breath, he laughs last knowing that his side will still win
>NOOOO A CHARACTER IN A STORY CAN'T BE DRAMATIC HE MUST BE 100% GROUNDED

People are uncomfortable with themselves and want to deny negative experiences, emotions, and differences so the idea that someone can get better is absolute poison to the modern homogenized golem.

>>714838696 (OP)
Marxism. Unironically.

>>714841321
You and I both know that is never how these sort of scenarios are shot or directed.

>>714842849
Or you could just throw the viewer into the world and have them slowly piece together what is going on.
The heroes journey is just the easy way to guide the viewer into what's going on, perfect for when you need to entertain retards.

>>714842884
classic authors weren't working off a template

>>714843061
>character is about to die
>his last words are some rick and morty tier cringe shit
>"absolute cinema!"

>>714839529
To emphasize that heroes should have big dicks

>>714843034
Wow bro what a great gotcha you surely won the argument
you want to bitch about sincerity but can't even argue with it

>>714839529
To emphasize that heroes should be well endowed.

>woke writers
>millennials
>bad experiences
>nobody has a life anymore
>edgy reddit atheists
>marxists
>joss whedon
>jews
All of these are true, but they're only the surface of the problem
The real issue is evil
Plain and simple, people are given over to satanic lives and make satanic things
it doesn't have to be blasphemous, it just has to hurt, disillusion, and distance you from goodness - from God

>>714843201
>>his last words are some rick and morty tier cringe shit
>that's what that does
>rick and morty tier
saying random words doesn't help you

>>714843140
The problem is that if everyone in the world already knows what's going on, there's no reason for characters to explain things to each other so the viewer can hear it.

>>714843317
you forgot to attach an epic joke to your post, redditard.

>>714843309
They hated him because he told them the truth.

>>714840127
>>714841667
He gave us Buffy

>The hero is pulled from another world to fight the demon king.
>Instead he has sex with his fairy companion and runs off to get married with her, abandoning his quest.

>>714838696 (OP)
I prefer the "start out as overconfident gigachad -> stumble and lose most of your power/gear -> go on a revenge quest -> regain power/gear piece by piece as you get character development -> achieve revenge after you no longer even care that much about it" journey.

>>714838696 (OP)
More video games should be written from the perspective of the bad guy.

>>714843352
Not everybody knows everything.
Also, that's part of the storytelling. Use your freaking brain to try to piece things together.

>>714843317
It's tacky, anon. If you're being attacked by a villain and you failed your mission and are unable to stop him from using the murderizer on you which he is then going to use on untold millions, you're about to face your mortality, you're going to be thinking of something other than what kind of heh, smug disaffected smirkalogue you can say.

More to the point: It's better for the medium, the story, and the audience to treat death with gravity. You are going to die, anon. You are. しんだいる。Done for. It's a more dignified thing to take that seriously.

>>714843653
>smug disaffected smirkalogue
What a way to turn a fucking phrase, damn

>>714841128
So the person who made the pic is retarded and so are you.

>>714838696 (OP)
on a personal level? self-loathing from missing out on opportunities to grow and failing tests of character in life. people like that need to drag the whole world down with them in order to appear less pathetic.

What's your story anon?

>videogames and movies being badly written is a sign of societal and moral degradation

Do you people even listen to yourselves?

>>714841571
It seems like you ascended to stupid ballsack poker.

>>714843754
No, you actually came to the opposite of the correct conclusion.

>>714843871
>badly written on purpose

>>714838696 (OP)
It had just become a little stale is all, but we've abandoned the traditional hero's journey for long enough that they're starting to be refreshing to see again. In a year or two, once this whole DEI debacle thing is officially put to rest, we'll see an explosion in traditional hero's journey stories again.

>>714843484
B A S E D

>>714843798
It's a romance story but where the guy dies in the first chapter instead of the last chapter

>>714843076
Said the unironically stupid.

>>714843871
>videogames and movies being badly written is a sign of societal and moral degradation
100% correct

>>714839131
I watched hulk and ironman three the only thing I remember about marvel is the wierd sex scene in the hulk

>>714838696 (OP)
>Start
>MC living in peace
>100 year war just ended
>Family of knights
>Not even first born son
>Different mother from first born son
>Mother is a commoner
>Still has to go through martial training
>Life is still comfy chilling with his commoner best friend and younger sibling

>End
>MC completes his journey
>New friends and possible romances all die
>doesn't discover new outlook on life
>found out his best friend is kind of a dick
>continues to live a comfy life chilling with his little sis

I guess this counts as subversion?

>>714843309
By the world view of retarded people like you video games is satanic so you don't really have any reason to be in /v/. Go be a faggot somewhere else.
>>714843419
404 truth or brains no found.

>>714843890
That you need a bath?

>>714844043
>t, someone 100% stupid.

>>714844224
No, not that.

>>714838696 (OP)
>We hate the heroes journey now and every games storyline arc needs to be subversion, deconstruction or riddled with sarcasm. Why?
Because you've consumed far too much entertainment. Same reason people pick up on and make fun of random anime tropes after the 1000th show about high schoolers with magic powers. Obsessing over "subversions" is just the final gasp of interest before complete boredom and indifference sets in.

>>714843871
This honestly. I'm all for shitting on retarded writing practices but the moment some denthead pulls out the 'this is because of a conspiracy trying to undermine morality itself...' or whatever I just check out immediately

>>714843435
He's not giving us Buffy now

>>714844325
That you should use Strength on the truck?

>>714844535
Possibly that, but I want an explanation first before I fully commit.

>>714843871
Its untrue but also true. Untrue because even after WW1, during the Great Depression an African born man managed to make inarguably the most sincere and greatest fantasy novel to exist, then did it again 3 more times after WW2. But its true because the conditions of the world and societal changes do make people less inclined to have shared experiences or positive personal growth.

>>714844163
Let me help you out, man. You were trying to say "According to the worldview of retarded people like you, video games are satanic, so you don't really have a reason to be on /v/."

And no, "video games" aren't satanic, at worst you could call them and all media "vain," but satanic? No. That's the wrong area to apply this terminology. There can be satanic video games, books, movies, and so on, but not everything is made from an evil spirit or intent or affectation. In fact, several pieces of media are deeply edifying and glorify the values and standards of God. For someone with such hatred for the faithful, you should really learn more about us so your rebuffs can have more bite.

>>714844589
Back in Red, Blue, and Yellow Pokemon there was a rumor that if you use Strength on a truck on a strip of land near the ship S.S. Anne you would find Mew.

>>714842804
Should a smug quip really be the last words of a hero who died protecting the world? It just seems to really undercut the drama at what should be the most emotionally impactful part of the movie. It's like they're saying "well hold on now, we don't want the audience to actually take this movie seriously!" Talk about insincere.

>>714843484
Peak

>>714842517
Not even that, the original Snow White movie was released in 1937. That's almost *100* fucking years ago. When you're bringing up media that's almost a century old as example of sincerity being normal in media, you know shit's fucked.

>>714843871
how is it not? You don't think entertainment reflects reality on some level? Vidya, movies, music, etc.

>>714844287
>t, someone 100% stupid.

>>714838861
jews did a number on you man
get your soul back

>>714844675
>derp durr

>>714844964
Because badly written media has existed since media itself has existed, anon.

>>714843871
yes, the decline of creative fields is indeed suggestive of cultural decay. are you really gonna try to gaslight us that this is some 4chan conspiracy theory? it's been a part of public discourse for a while now, tranny.

>>714844902
Interesting. And yes, that is what I needed. Thank you, anon.

>>714843871
Nothing in OP's post even suggests this and yet here you are trying to suggest people shouldn't say it. Curious.

>>714844995
Good job finding yourself

>>714839071
heros journey is woke

>>714843871
>>714845134
>

>>714842804
Coulson didn't get one over Loki though. He got away with everything, his war crimes, his betrayals, only dying to Thanos an even bigger war criminal in the cosmic hierarchy. Even Nick Fury his boss and various other members of SHIELD die and later disband. Half the universe which is septillions of lives get destroyed from Loki's machinations.

>>714845154
Damn how come that has never been the case in every other instance where shit stories were being churned out?

>>714843871
Entertainment has always been and always will be carrier of propaganda, tool for normalising things and shaping society on cultural level by promoting certain virtues.
Nazis did it, commies did it, Romans did it, every government tries to do it. It just got more sophisticated as entertainment became more important part of the ordinary human life because of the material prosperity that modern societies allow.

>>714844163
>>714841119
He's literally the meme.

>>714845581
damn the era of fedora tipping seems like 50 years ago

>>714845581
Your gay face is a meme.

>>714841640
>They also want to identify with the villains instead of the heroes for some reason.
1. this is the one good thing to come out of modern media
2. there is barely any of it. 99% of villains are still evil because evil or some shit. also watch the hero only be politically correctly flawed.

>>714841710
>that nigga who gets his news from 4chan
there may be a ton of isekai but they're hardly even close to the majority of anime. Also you're neglected the ones that are super serious or straightforward.

>>714838696 (OP)
>and every games storyline arc needs to be subversion, deconstruction or riddled with sarcasm. Why?
Because the writers aren't that much removed from the average failure to launch incel, they just got lucky through nepotism and landed a job. They never went through the journey to maturity, which is why they deride it, it's something mythical and unreal to them and it has to be, because they can't go through the rites of passage at 36 years old anymore. They're a forever 14 year old in an old man's body.
It's sort of like the slut who will never know real love because she fucked and sucked since age 15 so she will be used and abused until her expiry date, then thrown aside. This isn't solely related to men and their issues, it's widespread societally because they forgot tradition means solution to problems we forgot existed, and are still there.

The hero's journey is simply maturing and becoming an adult, the fact that it's treated as a joke by modern media is a testament to their immaturity or subversive nature.

>>714842884
Do you think the classical authors wanted everybody copying them blindly?

>>714839131
>sincerity
*gets addicted to hard drugs*
*votes for John McCain*
*fucking kills himself*

>>714839131
This. American writers are afraid of taking anything seriously because that might make it look like "embarrassing nerd shit". If they lampshade everything and make anything fantasy, sci-fi, or capeshit related a parody of itself, they can hide behind the veil of irony and act like they were only making "embarrassing nerd shit" in order to mock it.

>>714842626
>marvel movies
>deeper than very hungry catepillar
cmon anon

>>714843871
Look at what happened to art as Rome fell.

>>714843435
Have you fucking watched Buffy recently? It's fucking garbage.

>>714841571
>worships a fucking letter

>>714843871
lmao anon touched a nerve with this one

>>714843871
>>videogames and movies being badly written is a sign of societal and moral degradation
Yes?

>>714838696 (OP)
Actually, "we" think that subversive, self-aware deconstructions of stock story structures and archetypes are all fucking gay, and that millennial writers should all be burned alive on a big pile of Buffy and Fiirefly box sets.

>people complain about Rick and Morty while dickriding the Hero's Journey
That's pretty ironic. I also remember when the show was the post child of the new sincerity crowd.

>>714843592
Only real problem is villain is active while heros is reactive. I'll remind you that people like alexander and napoleon were not considered good guys by their victims.

>>714838696 (OP)

>>714846691
>new sincerity
give me a fucking break, jews can't even remotely understand human emotion because they aren't human and lack the divine spark.

>>714846009
You left out the part where the journey to maturity is completely irrelevant in the machine age. Nothing humans do will truly ever matter and thats becoming more so clear as ai starts automatting most "productive" "work".

>>714838696 (OP)
That isn't the heroes journey.
The heroe's journey includes them being forever haunted by their experiences going into the future, despite winning.
You see this in Star Wars with Luke losing his father and LotR with the shire getting fucked up and the Hobbits no longer relating to their home.

>>714838696 (OP)
which modern games subvert the hero's journey?

>>714846308
that's based though because that's what we do on the internet

>>714847476
Is that something people still want? That kind of bittersweet narrative structure? I'm genuinely asking because I am an amateur dev and I just want to make games that have a strong narrative like this, but I'm afraid that people don't care about honest attempts at earnest storytelling and would rather indulge in the kind of ironic, absurdist and sarcastic deconstructions we see a lot of lately. Is there a place in the modern consciousness for a no-strings-attached fantasy? Conceptually, at least? Obviously being able to write effectively is a major factor.

>>714840259
from what i've seen personally its the top doing most of the work desu

>>714838696 (OP)
The image made me realize that twitter user make the most soulless rage bait because that site feeds you via engagement, so any publicity is good publicity.
Meanwhile people here do it just because it's like a hobby, despite the fact that it is way easier to ignore ragebait on 4chan.
People on Twitter make ragebait for personal profit while people on 4chan do it for the love of the game.

>>714847476
Being changed by negative events and turning them into positive things in the future is apart of that journey. Luke becomes a hero who can usher in a new age of peace for the Republic and the Jedi's return (fuck what Disney states.) Sam gets a wife and like 10 kids, Merry and Pippin are still famous and rich and die peacefully in Gondor, The Shire is saved and considered off-limits by all men. Frodo gets to live the remainder of his years in some Elysium adjacent but thats mainly because of the effects of the ring and being stabbed by the morgul blade.

Im a sperg so probably my opinion is not shared by most of people
For me it should depend on gameplay, if you did like most of quests and all companions quest and good choises then you can have perfect ending
If you menage just ok you get bittersweet ending
If you were playing bad you get bad ending
Plus choises if they matter and consequences
Sorry for my shitty english

>>714848373
Yeah exactly, this idea that the hero has to be doomed and broken forever just to seem "deep" is more of a postmodern cope than anything. The whole point is the journey leaves scars, but they don't erase the growth. Frodo couldn't stay because he was too hurt, but Sam - who bore just as much - still thrived. That's not inconsistent, it's layered. People act like a happy ending negates struggle when in reality it's proof that the struggle meant something.

>>714838861
The top rated story games are always in the format of hero journeys.

Name a game that takes the sarcastic approach and actually has a coherent good story.

>slow life vidya
would probably resonate with millennials

>>714845004
You lack reading comprehension. I was advocating for writing from the heart instead of using a template. If the story that comes out of you follows the hero’s journey, that’s fine. If you think the classic stories were written by following close to the hero’s journey template, you’re wrong- the hero’s journey was based on the classics and not the other way around

>>714838696 (OP)
Did Jack have a hero's journey?

>>714840031
Who was Heracles' magical helper? What did he bring to the community? Is Heracles not a hero?

>>714848041
Just write. See what sticks. If you're not doing it now, when will you? Ask yourself that.

>>714848425
So the more you do, the better the ending? I thin kthat used to be a lot more common. i guess nowadays players wnat the 'perfect' ending much easier/quicker because gaymers dont have enough time to enjoy their hobby

>>714848767

>>714848897

the hero's journey, like all storytelling techniques, is a suggestion of which you can use to effectively write. it is as much as a requirement as you want it to be

>>714848561
If its done tastefully I don't mind bittersweet endings or where the MC feels like apart of them is missing now after their journey. But you need the writing talent to do it and thats in short supply now unless you're digging really deep for newer media.

>>714841119
>white
>not White
seems you aren't White either kike.

>>714849038
Yes, and then a villain's journey

>>714841571
Why are you antiwhite anon?

>>714848041
There’s always someone who wants that. Maybe not today, but tomorrow they will. I’ve been writing for a few years now, and I plan on releasing a fantasy novel sometime this year. People often think they’re smarter than they actually are, constantly trying to deconstruct what they’ve read, watched, or played just to feel superior or some egotistical nonsense I can’t quite grasp.
It’s all about treating the subject properly. If you want to have a discussion, make the reader or player think, put them in a weird position or give them an odd scenario. If you don’t give them the option to disagree or respond, it isn’t a discussion anymore; it’s a lecture.

There’s always someone who wants a classic bittersweet hero’s journey, just like there’s always someone who wants a playful romp. Tastes ebb and flow. Right now irony and meta-commentary are trendy, but audiences tire of that too. So make the story you believe in, and treat your audience with enough respect to let them form their own conclusions.

>>714843309
You can condense that entire list to one word
Antiwhites.

>>714846746
I don't get it. Why he got mad?

desu because modern life has gotten too complicated.

even stuff like botns that has a unreliable narrator rings empty these days to me. real life is so much more confusing and unsure from a logical viewpoint while still seeming so dreary and monotonous that no media can capture it properly except maybe lit.

there was a thread earlier today about how immature vidya is in its depiction of depression and i completely agreed. stuff like undertale, celeste etc are genuinely juvenile in how they handle these issues despite their charm, cleverness, and tight narratives. i'm not even arguing they're bad games or stories, but as an adult they are not remotely mature stories to me.

>>714849308
Its kinda destroy purpurowe of playing, they can watch good ending on YT XD

>>714849879
Purpuose

>>714849853
he hates endfags

>>714848041
Don't go for irony. You will be competing with the hundreds of slop-makers from the billionaire corporations like Marvel to the upstarts indies who have connection in the industry. Go for something people (and you) can truly relate with.

>>714849848
Capeshit movies dying is good for everyone but even still the media still sucks. Theres no jokes or meta commentary in Rings of Power, the narrative is just tainted down to the existential level. The Acolyte had no real jokes and maybe a few gags and played everything 100% straight but it was also about one of the most unlikeable main characters in history with lesbian space witches. Whedon dialogue can die but someones still going to make a 400 million budgeted film that just alienates people out of quality and not tone or dialogue.

>>714842818
>2 more weeks- uhm I mean generations!
>this time for real

>>714843653
And once the pendulum swings back you'll be arguing for more whacky, less serious shit. You're so transparently contrarian. You don't even like anyhting, you just want to oppose what's currently popular and that's why no one takes you seriously. Because once people give in to your demands you won't even enjoy it and find a new way to attack it.

>>714839131
>make it dark, but then tell a joke
He's not wrong, when he's not the one doing it.
You can make the story MORE sincere/personal by throwing in some sparce gallows humour.
Whedon's obnoxious style where everything is ironic isn't what I'm talking about.

I always see people here talk about subversion but there are almost no actual subversive games in terms of plot structure most stick pretty close to heroes journey, they’re subversive because they’re filled with gay shit

>>714838696 (OP)
Due to it being so structured, it is especially bad for video-games that want to give a greater degree of agency and freedom for the player.

>>714851012
How about you fuck off from our entertainment industry and let normal people create stuff again, invader?

>>714844163
Nice projection, retardatheist

>>714845134
Good media used to exist too, tho

because Americans hate sincerity ever since the works of mark twain, the most FAMOUS SATIRIST. Mark twain even blamed ivanhoe, a story about chivalry published in UK as the cause for convincing young men to die. Just like how 'Connecticut yankee in king arthur court' also ridiculed chivalry and heroism

people say josh wheadon like >>714839131 but Americans just hate heroes. It doesn't surprise me that it wasn't the jewish tv exec that ridiculed the father, but ATE THAT SHIT UP. Americans have always been like this willingly and perpetuated it long before

This is all the storytelling video games need.

>>714842228
Redditor.

>>714838696 (OP)
any culture rejecting, subverting, or actively replacing the classic hero's journey arc is one that wishes its people to be slaves.

the hero's journey arc is one of the most classic story archetypes in fiction. it is used in everything from fairy tales to religious texts to games and even music in the form of ballads, it's tied so deeply to the human consciousness that every culture has independently created it at some point early on. sad faggot's journey only became a thing recently. slice of life shit only became a thing semi-recently. intersectional chosen one's journey only became a thing very recently.

you have to understand that classic storytelling is meant to give people a story and moral/set of morals that are based around universally agreed upon "good" character traits. hero's journey is the quickest way to bundle hard work, perseverance, failure/growth, romance, camaraderie, teamwork, and more into one character with it being at least somewhat believable. even in the case of an antihero like deadpool, which was sarcastic as fuck, it was framed as a hero's journey and *still* managed to be an at least decent story.

the issue is that now, especially in america, heroes are no longer idolized. sad faggots are idolized. "everything is miserable" is the driving narrative in most fiction now. we don't even have apocalypse narratives anymore because that showed the human spirit at its best, continuing on in spite of the worst conditions. now everything has to be neutered even further to allow for *zero* positive character traits.

>>714843435
Buffy was only ever decent because he had tardwranglers to keep it all in check. The more creative freedom he got, the worse Buffy got. All he had was a decent concept that he couldn't follow through with without others to carry the load.

>>714854439
THIS

>thread about sincerity
>look inside
>insincere posts

>>714838861
the number of replies to this post not understanding what he's saying is unfortunate.

Boring
Tragedies are way better
Stories where the hero would have been better off not even starting his journey

>>714854439
i say its typical in american culture. The only outlier i could think of is the spanish and don quixote by Miguel de Cervantes

>>714854439
>the issue is that now, especially in america, heroes are no longer idolized. sad faggots are idolized.
no, americans idolize successful, even eccentric, heroes just like you talked about. men like trump, musk, bezos, zuckerberg and tate embody
>hard work, perseverance, failure/growth, romance, camaraderie, teamwork
as you said. jeff even remarried just two weeks ago, showing that even one failed marriage shouldn't ruin a life of love.

>>714855035
what about stories where the world is better off with the hero having gone on their journey, but the hero is worse off.

>>714841195
>Also people don't quip when they're near death
They don't when bleeding out, but they do when they're physically healthy but almost certainly going to die soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232
tl;dr: Haynes is the captain of an uncontrollable passenger jet.
>Sioux City Approach: "United Two Thirty-Two Heavy, the wind's currently three six zero at one one; three sixty at eleven. You're cleared to land on any runway."
>Haynes: "[laughter] Roger. [laughter] You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

>>714855338
Jokes yes
Quipshit no

>>714854439
it's unrealistic as fuck
such childish tales no longer interest grown men

>>714854801
i have more, i'm just tired as fuck and not firing on all cylinders. i don't really know for sure how to convey what i'm thinking of, but bear with me. fiction is meant to remind people of what they should be, at least in part, past obvious entertainment value. that's why irreverent media is harmful in large amounts: if all you consume is angry, insincere, downer themes and storylines (ESPECIALLY those framed as comedy which softens the negative themes with humor), you will turn into a s*y faggot, because all you're consuming is s*y faggot worldview in the form of media. it doesn't matter if it's funny, ironic, whatever: the ideas are still making it through.

this goes the other way too: again with deadpool, that was through and through sarcasm and irreverence but it also had classic themes. it did the unserious faggot shit but had positive, classic themes of hard work/teamwork/etc that ultimately were just packaged in a modern wrapper. that's why it was so successful, it didn't subvert the classic hero's journey with modern bullshit, it took the best parts of modern bullshit and used it as a convenient method of delivery.

"good" media will remind you of traits to strive for, give you a hypothetical struggle to very loosely apply to your own life, or even outright have a common struggle that the hero faces in a human manner. good media can also have aspects of what not to do, usually framed as a redemption arc, not only to make it feel good but to show those in that situation that they too can improve and become a better human. having a villain or scumbag redemption arc isn't a bad thing, it can be just as valid as hero's journey, it just needs to stick and not be trivialized by some quip at the end of the movie showing nothing actually changed.

bad media will trivialize everything, undo character development or never show it in the first place, or have outright bad traits idolized or shown as successful.

>>714855518
>fiction is meant to remind people of what they should be
yup that's why alicesoft makes the only games worth playing

>>714855121
>i say its typical in american culture
yes, agreed 100%
>The only outlier i could think of is the spanish and don quixote by Miguel de Cervantes
context, though. he was framed as a madman making his way through a mad world. i agree that it's still inherently irreverent and is pseudosoyim, but the framing and context doesn't make don out to be the only truly sane man in the room or anything like that. as a disclaimer, it has been a *long* ass time since i caught up on the story here, i could be totally off base here
>>714855259
half the country hates everyone you mentioned, the other half is blindly favoring them. these are also not fictional characters. you are conflating real life and fiction, likely in a bad faith argument to make this discussion devolve into a shitflinging argument.
>>714855507
it's not childish in any way. these stories are told to children so they begin to have a base of fictional heroes to look to in order to supplement any character deficiencies in their parents, because parents are human and imperfect. if parents are generally good people but lazy, is having the hard work narrative of naruto such a bad thing for a kid to look up to? no. you are giving kids the ability to see more perfect character archetypes and see good traits and morals. you want the absolute best media fed to kids, not unserious or negative dogshit, so you pick the best possible framings and storylines for children's media. morally beneficial, intellectually challenging but understandable, with messages that foster growth. adults can make use of this too, but it's extremely important for kids.

>>714838696 (OP)
Who the fuck is we? Speak for yourself faggot.

>>714838696 (OP)
I fucking hate when people are depicted wearing swords on their backs. It's quite literally imposible to pull a longsword out of it's scabbard if it's attached to your back because your arms arent long enough.

>>714855856
>it's not childish in any way. these stories are told to children so they begin to have a base of fictional heroes to look to in order to supplement any character deficiencies in their parents, because parents are human and imperfect. if parents are generally good people but lazy, is having the hard work narrative of naruto such a bad thing for a kid to look up to? no. you are giving kids the ability to see more perfect character archetypes and see good traits and morals. you want the absolute best media fed to kids, not unserious or negative dogshit, so you pick the best possible framings and storylines for children's media. morally beneficial, intellectually challenging but understandable, with messages that foster growth. adults can make use of this too, but it's extremely important for kids.
Yeah you're definitely the kind of guy whi thinks he's a rebel from star wars fighting against the evil Palpatine Trump and Voldemort Putin

>>714855856
>yes, agreed 100%

I like how some Euro most americans are sleeping even agree to this. It doesn't surprise me that Americans relies on literature/media outside their continent. From medieval fantasy to literal anime/video games

But we all know how this ends, most Americans will just satirize it

>>714856118
again, going for the real world parallels that no one is bringing up. i am talking very specifically about how good tropes in media can result in better development for people. i have not called any leader or politician into question nor will i.

>>714846476
The only thing that counts is the movie, and it's spectacular. If you ever watched a WB/UPN/CW/FX/USA/TBS/TNT original series, you're gay.

>>714843871
These people are crazy, what else is new?

Cervante's Don Quixote is literally a satire of how stupid chivalry is but then people liked it so much beyond its satire and treated it as a romance. Even Cervantes later on would be less of a jaded man and wrote more romance novels.

>>714856360
I meant that hero's journey would just give children unrealistic expectations for the world

>>714856348
i am american, just night shift worker. i frequently dunk on american culture at the moment because it objectively sucks and promotes bad faith arguments and ideals for the sake of irony or some kind of misguided ideal.

>From medieval fantasy to literal anime/video games. But we all know how this ends, most Americans will just satirize it
we turn everything into satire. satire is the only thing the average american can even vaguely understand anymore, or even appreciate. we took satire from one of the best tools to use for touchy subjects to a bargain basement trope used by talentless hacks in just a couple generations.

>>714849849
Anti white means pro human. It is a requirement to write or make good art.

>>714854248
>Video game having stories bad.
Yawn.

Fuck it, I'm not afraid to say I like happy endings in my media. Doesn't have to be all the time, and it should be earned and make sense, but unsatisfying, inconclusive endings piss me off.

Bittersweet endings are also fine. But happy endings are peak. Hero does the hard task, they succeed, and then are rewarded.
>Erm, but in real life, often times people DON'T get the reward!
I don't give a shit. You look at wars and the people they write stories about or base movies on. It's not Soldier Stu who was the first to get shot on the battlefield. It's Major Kickass, the dude who got cut off from his platoon and had to survive in the wilderness for a month eating shrubs and his own piss as he killed fiddy men with nothing but a swiss army knife, some rocks, a rubber band, and a little cocaine, then made it home to tell the story.

>>714851881
>responsibility
Therein lies the problem. Responsibility to whom? Responsibility went out the window when the west forsook traditional values and championed subverting them. Fuck being responsible, it's about spiting your elders on what they find problematic.

>>714856525
the way a lot of modern media portrays it, sure. being perfect at everything, chosen by whatever god analogue that franchise uses, sailing through the story while putting up with teammates who provide some vague ancillary vehicle for anything resembling a moral. a good hero's journey always has a failure of some kind, some inherently bad trait that the hero has to work through, that's where the development comes from. dipshit mcfuck and his magic dildo beating everyone instantly and never having to do anything is a terrible way to write a story. you see it in star wars 7 and 8, rey is just a piece of shit who has all the power and never needs to do fucking anything. that's why her character is reviled by so many, she never actually did the hero's journey. she just pressed the win button over and over by being literally the best at everything.

>>714856118
>pic
He kinda is a terrorist though, he's an unapologetic outlaw and while he himself isn't directly trying to, his crew is toppling the ruling order of every place they go through and they're probably going to dismantle the world government.

It's the same reason why people find paladins """"""""""boring""""""""" in fantasy, writing them as honourable fools rather than the dark and brooding rogues who truly know how the world werks.

>>714841119
why do (reddit) atheists act like this? at least christians, when shilling their religion, will try to appeal to your sense of virtue and emotion. Atheists seem to have a hidden trigger that when struck, immediately causes them to freak out and try to shit on people while trying to make themselves out to be an intellectual. Is it falseflagging?

>>714856491
That’s sort of the nature of these things. When you make a character fit into a certain role and have them act in a certain way no matter how cartoonish you make them you will have people rooting for them. Since with characters it’s only partially about them and more of what they represent. And trying to take the piss out of something like chivalric knights fails since people know that it’s a fantasy. They know that real knights weren’t actually like that. But to have a figure embody a sort of virtue and represent things like honor, justice, love, and hope is nice and makes people feel good.

>>714856615
do most americans like fantastical tales. I know most americans love the percy jackson trilogy. But i thought it was the nerd audience before the bing bang theory took it to the mainstream.

My experinace is that most Americans and canadians like authentic things but satirize later. Its why they think derivatives of dragon quest is cringe >>714839519. It was worse in the 00s where every american was either a Cod or halofag. The nerds stick to WoW when RTS became bland from starcraft 2.

Meanwhile i'll just emulate yggdra union again or skygunner

https://youtu.be/m8ISiTb9kFo?si=dFLCf4YzeXG4OzId
https://youtu.be/ZerrPE-N-MU?si=3twJSVivmDUvd6UM

>>714853954
If america hated heroes then why did we elect a hero twice?

>>714838696 (OP)
How about a hero's journey that's subverted but is sincere about it and circles back to being a hero's journey by the end

>>714856929
you can't be a terrorist without terror

>>714857852
jacksama, i kneel.
https://youtu.be/rV1TBnTJMFQ?si=jecX9gFDoD2-4gNR
https://youtu.be/t3UPpm0uyrc?si=LOqnE3lJX4Voc-X6
https://youtu.be/9CR5dNCC-YQ?si=Zf-GAvy9TFKuQ7vl

>>714857730
Simple answer is yes given that shit like super heroes have been extremely popular in the states since their inception. But a more complex answer is it varies, your average person in the modern day isn’t going to be doing a deep dive into various heroic figures or reading classical literature outside of what they are made to read in school. Normalfags don’t care much about things that don’t fit into the social game. And by that I mean if they don’t get some kind of recognition or validation from talking about it with others then they don’t give a fuck about it. I mean they could read the Illiad and Odyssey over watching whatever slop Disney puts out but they would get nothing from that since most if not all of the people they know will just go and watch the slop and any mention of the books would just have them getting glazed over expressions and half hearted answers which feign interest to mask the need to change the subject.

Kill yourself, subhuman /pol/skin.

>>714858045
Lmao the tone in these is on point

>>714839131
It's funny because Whedon never used to be that bad. Imagine if Wesley's death had had a stupid joke in it.

>>714838861
>It should be used to analyze stories that have already been written
Kill yourself. I take any shitty OC over the bullshit made by people who haven't had a single original thought in their lives.

>>714857593
>>714845581
are retard, you weren't there. The reason why reddit athiest took over was because millenials had to endure a generation of soccer mom preaching that everything is LE SATANIC AN' VIOLENT. All the censorship and bad faith it had

its why you had grand theft auto as outlandish and insane as it was

>>714849038
Yes. Dozens of them.

>>714854248

>hero loses but ultimately changed the villain's perspective in life and avenges him
Extremely kino. Any games that do this?

i want my characters to be unrecognizable by the end

>>714859275

>>714859275
e33

>>714838696 (OP)
Hero's journey owes all its popularity to Star Wars and George Lucas, the book itself is trash.

>>714838696 (OP)
game story writers failed as a person and are incapable of writing anything that's not either rick and morty, teenage angst.

>>714859618
the book is an observation, not an outline

>>714858826
Idk seeing how majority of millenials turned into faggot and trannies maybe they soccer moms were onto something.

>>714859228
>nu version

>>714841152
Okay, but there better not be any bullshit puzzles about floating capes and footprints.

>>714845004
ITS DA JOOOS EVERYTHINGS DA JOOS EVERY NIGHT MY MOMMY CHECKS UNDER MY BED FOR DA JOOZ

>>714859794
I think it's a really shit observation, frankly.

Most mythological hero journeys end in tragedy. The amount of them returning can be counted on one hand.

>>714845004
I would honestly support the Jews just to see you seethe. Even your invented strawman evil jews are more likeable than you.

>>714843871
Imagine being this much of a historylet.

>>714860406
You misunderstood
the one taking the journey is not in the narrative, but the one observing it

>>714838696 (OP)
Too many of them, especially ones that are decent to above average. Once something becomes oversaturated the concept of it becomes easily hateable.

>>714838696 (OP)
Because Jews, childless women, and trannies are the people making games in the West.

>>714839529
To emphasize how gay op is

>>714860605
>>714860385
FULL SAPPORT SAAR
INDIA LOVE ISRAEL SAAR

>>714857840
andrew jackson?

Only someone that has seen less than 10 movies, read zero good literature and is pretty much a normalfag likes the hero's journey. It's the single most generic story template, only rivaled by the generic romance shit that women love so much.

A: idk what world you are living in most games still follow hero's journey without any irony or subversion

B: nothing wrong with subverting any story if it's done well
Early game of thrones had a lot of subversion and people loved it because it was well written

>>714858184
>-skin
take your fat fucking mexican ass back to sharty. and stay there.

>>714862940
> B: nothing wrong with subverting any story
There’s nothing wrong with it and there’s nothing right with it. It’s the jumpscare of writing tactics. Totally lacking in any substance, but quite shocking and attention-getting.
It’s like how in No Country for Old Men, the movie makes you think that the MC and Anton are going to have a final duel, but then the MC randomly gets killed off screen by some nobodies instead. Shocking, but it doesn’t really mean anything.

>>714838696 (OP)
Average 1st worlder has consumed thousands of stories. We crave novelty, twists, and surprises, and we’re all slowly going insane.

Hero's journey is shameless power fantasy but tries to justify itself by saving the world along the way "Saving the world and getting paid for my troubles" - Tychus Findlay
Thus it is always dishonest

>>714858826
>The reason why reddit athiest took over was because millenials had to endure a generation of soccer mom preaching that everything is LE SATANIC AN' VIOLENT. All the censorship and bad faith it had

No, it's because the internet exposed people to more views, so people immediately discarded Christianity. Problem is, people think they're superior to Christianity and think religion is a sham and evil, so they rebuke it, but then reintroduce all the problems Christianity solved and everyone's miserable for it without even knowing why.

>>714843435
Firefly > Buffy

>>714855019
maybe write it in a non- retarded way next time, faggotron

>>714869020
Not his fault 85% of /v/ is filled by subhuman ESLs

>>714838696 (OP)
Bump

>>714841119
HOW CAN I MAKE THIS ABOUT MY MENTAL ILLNESS CENTERED AROUND AMERICANS

>>714864387
>but it doesn’t really mean anything.
It means that I drop the film.
Miss me with that subversion of expectations

>>714868760
>but then reintroduce all the problems Christianity solved and everyone's miserable for it without even knowing why.
Perfectly said.

>>714869020

It's perfectly understandable to anyone who isn't a soulless golem.

>>714838696 (OP)
I wish I'm a mangaka.
Then I will draw a story about the old retired hero have to come out of retirement and beat the current demon king.
He's weak because he's older, but he have the knowledges on how to deal with the cliches being thrown at him during the adventure.

>>714844665
>during the Great Depression an African born man managed to make inarguably the most sincere and greatest fantasy novel to exist
who are you talking about?

>>714869008
Yeah, I liked Outlaw Star too.

>>714841195
>I guarantee you nobody is going to be quipping when bleeding out
I did it once but it wasn't a good quip

>>714875753
Maybe you weren't bleeding enough

>>714839131
Humor is a spice to tragedy. It's just marvel slop's definition of tragedy is a clown wearing a black hoodie.

>>714864529
I crave familiarity with a new coat of paint and better execution, more depth. Maybe it's my trash taste but I love good ol' isekai slop.

>>714864387
I thought it worked there because it's being realistic about violence, your luck might run out when you least expect it and you get killed. I like a little intelligent nihilism and bleakness in stories though. The jumpscare comparison is apt, in isolation it's a cheap tactic but it's something that can be earned, like in the second Penumbra game there's a part where a character with a soft, nonthreatening voice asks for an item and the area you walk through to get it is fairly peaceful, then after you give it to him there's a few lines of dialog then he bursts through the door he's behind trying to kill you, it's a jumpscare but it's one that makes total sense and works because you've gotten a little too comfortable and now you're back to being scared. Subverting expectations is similar, if it hangs perfectly on the plot and themeing there's nothing wrong with it, it can actually be great.

>>714876576
Yeah, I don’t mean to be too harsh on it. The example I brought up in NCFOM was one I actually really liked because of how effective it was. It comes at a point in the movie for it feels like it’s transitioning away from mostly being the MC’s perspective, and then he gets killed, as if he’s just another background character. He’s only the MC because the story arbitrarily decided to focus on him, not because he has some kind of cosmic significance that necessitates plot armor.
My actual gripe is with people who say subverting expectations is a positive irrespective of how it’s handled. The biggest, fattest, gayest retard with nothing going on in their head can take a bog-standard story archetype- say, the chosen one finding the magic sword and slaying the evil dragon ravaging the kingdom- and subvert by having the dragon kill the hero in the final hour, dooming the kingdom. It takes no effort to subvert something, and so it’s ridiculous to say that there’s any merit in the mere act of subversion.

>>714874540
Tolkien

>>714841119
based
shitskin mutts and satanists seething

>>714877408
Subverting expectations is always bad writing

>some nerd talks about the common elements of myths between cultures, all around the world, looking for common elements that are universal
>"why did we stop doing this?"
we haven't, it's borderline impossible to not do heroes journey or to use elements of it

the game starting off normal and becoming fantastical - heroes journey

protagonist meets a girl - hero's journey

protagonist finds magical item - hero's journey

protagonist faces adversity - hero's journey

>>714841119
BASED
MYSTERY MEAT AMERIGOLEMS BTFO

>>714878516
No it isn't, you're a retard. Bad writing is bad writing and subverting expectations can be written well, you've just never read anything longer than a Dr. Seuss book.

>>714841195
I don't mind coulsons as much, it's at least relevant to the situation and something that may be on his mind as he dies, stark just mumbling about shawarma less so.

>>714838696 (OP)
>We
Hero's journey is timeless.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Dk_vCGJaxDw

>>714839131
Glad /v/ finally got sick of you faggots and started calling you out on your bullshit. Nobody likes you, and you're always wrong.

>>714858720
How can you make a post this drenched in irony without even realizing it?

>>714845715
>you now remember atheism+

>>714846746
me on the left

>>714842338
hmmm nah not really

>>714839131
People shitposting Colson's death didn't understand it. It's only barely humorous, but also it's fitting because for that one moment, Colson got to feel like he was one of the heroes.

>>714878585
>protagonist faces adversity - hero's journey
You are a fucking retard that's missing the forest for the trees. kys

>>714839131
why do people plaster this quote everywhere with some EPIC background as if it's even 1% true?
>"a retired Navy SEAL once told me - ALWAYS put milk first, then cereal"
>Alfred Einstein

>>714838696 (OP)
because you didn't play Starfield

>>714841571
based and chadpilled
>>714841119
cringe and PRCpilled

>>714868760
Christianity has not been discarded by the people in power, it doesn't matter that Atheists destroyed religion online because the people in power still need it to enforce certain cultural values. That's why every US President still will claim to be Christian

>>714838696 (OP)
>now
Hero's journey was better when armchair writers didn't boil everything down to this formula. By the way, heroes is the plural of hero, and you need to learn English.

>>714853858
Yes, you are retarded and like cocks.

>>714879014
Subverting expectation is a form of bad writing.
Deal with it
Only kind of exception is the beginning of Psycho, where Hitchcock was smart enough to make it happen before asking you to get invested in the story

also please don't be a retard who confuses twists with subverting expectations, if that's the case

>>714839131
In reality, you use something like this to break the tension in a high stress situation or painful experience, as a way of trying to push past whatever's happening and lift morale.
In writing however, it's become little more than a trope that's used to try and kill off any sense of tension in scenes that really should revel in it.
If you use it in writing, it should be done to highlight the tension of a given scene and in turn the resilience of the characters experiencing it.

>>714881174
>faggot with neocommercial religion having a meltdown
All the times kek

>>714881574
explain the difference

>>714880670
All formulas are cancer.
As you said Hero's Journey was never meant to be one, but just a tool to understand storytelling better

>>714862231
Said the retard who only makes stupid posts in /v/

>>714839131
Expedition 33 did this yet its story is fantastic.

>>714854248
Sometimes, the only motivation you need is
>game is fun
>bad guy is evil and kidnapped your wife
>kick his ass and look cool

>>714856118
>socialist internet personality
>this character is a terrorist
>and adheres to my ideals
lol dumb commies

>>714881834
Yes, you are stupid all the time.

>>714838696 (OP)
The Hero's journey is gay if the Hero doesn't have to give something substantial up. The "I got the call to adventure and got everything I wanted and didn't really learn anything" shot gotta go

>>714882026
lol, so that was actually your problem.

Twist = Story is about A (seeds of B are planted here) and it surprisingly leds to B. When you are at B and you look behind, you retroactively see that A was leading to B or it was at least a possibility. You get invested in A and B doesn't betray the expectation set by A.

Subversion = Sory is about A. Lol, I'm joking, it's about B. You didn't get invested in A, right?
You get invested in A, but that gets tossed out because it's actually B. B invalidates A and the expectations set by A.

Basically a SoA is a twist that purposely disrespect the audience.

>>714882542
>nonsequitur
>ad hominem
>meltdown
>no argument
kek

>>714882141
E33 invalidates act 1-2 when you enter act 3. That's not fantastic by any standard

>>714882572
>Hero's journey = good writing
>No Hero's journey = bad writing
Nobody implied that

>>714882770
Yes, that your posts, retard.

>>714883157
>NO U
kek
You keep digging deeper.
bet you don't evene remember why are you evend doing this. Yo uare jsut irrationally mad at the moment

If you hate modern writing and know better than everyone else then become a vidya writer. Should be easy enough if Trannoid Mcgee or Jamal Ginsberg can get in and do it.

>>714844665
>greatest fantasy novel to exist
holy retarded amerimutt kys

>>714883283
Maybe you should ask yourself why you are doing this retard. You are the one assblasted about some reply to some retarded faggot reeeing about how everything is satanic

>>714882675
They're fuzzy categories and I think you have too narrow a definition of subversion of expectations, that can happen at various levels of severity or ways throughout a story, it doesn't have to be just crude scribbling out all of the preceding plot like you're describing. I think the difference is that subversion of expectations has some kind of "meta" element whereas a twist is a surprise that exists within the normal parameters of the plot, like the bad guy turns out to be good. Bioshock might be an example of subversion of expectations because the big reveal isn't a surprise like you'd expect a plot twist to be.

>>714884546
I'm jsut laughing at you becasue you got irrationally mad, liek all stupid proud atheists
I'm nto even religious, mind you

>>714838861
This. In the same vein, subversion is the most effective when it isn’t done for the sake of subversion.

>>714849864
>he fell for the "undertale is about depression" meme

>>714885685
So you are a retard who lacks understanding of what is going on around you. Okay then.

>>714885081
they aren't fuzzy at all.
one makes use of the chekhov's gun, which works
the other is just meta shit and bad writing made on purpose
it violates the implicit contract between reader/player/watcher and the storyteller: I suspend my disbelief and you respect my investment based on your premises

>>714840031
Gilgamesh is a tragedy not a hero's tale

>>714847274
>only products matter
>humans don't matter
humanity is the whole point of society existing in the first place. that you've somehow forgotten this is extremely tragic

>>714885948
You are going on and on because you are angry now and want the last word because you are soooo mad.
Well, cry me a river, red.dit neocommercial atheist. And bye bye

>>714885831
a subversion not done for the sake of subversion and done right doesn't subvert anything.
It's just a twist

what about hero to villain?

>>714838696 (OP)
>We hate the heroes journey now
We don't actually, you have culture warrior shitting on any divergence as the result of woke conspiracy to push for diversity.
>Why?
You want the exact same shit forever? The heroes' journey, especially taken in a classical way, is a very rigid template.

>every games storyline arc needs to be subversion, deconstruction or riddled with sarcasm.
Originality is the result of subversion, deconstruction and optionally sarcasm.
And it's a mistake to act as if everything was derivative of something else, you are just brainwashing yourself into a mindless consumer.

I actually expect us to go through a phase of denial of personal works. The slightest author bias will be treated like shit while AI-writer will spurn "safe product" that are derivative and soulless.

>>714886357
Yes, you made it clear you are retarded and barely know what is going on around you.

>>714843871
>>videogames and movies being badly written is a sign of societal and moral degradation
>> is a sign
Well, it is.
If you live in a society where quality, no matter how subjective, is no longer a goal for anyone, this is when you have a societal collapse.

>>714844456
>'this is because of a conspiracy trying to undermine morality itself..
NTA, but you are the only one imagining a conspiracy.
Such degradation is more easily the result of people no longer giving a shit about anything and destroying their own culture.
Moral don't even play into this, you can have highly immoral entertainment and still be like god to civilization where these immoral actions are not fictional, don't make any sense, let alone the topic of consent...

>>714886129
Not him but I cannot think of any game that just throws out its initial premise with no foreshadowing

>>714846482
>>worships a fucking letter
The average Elon fanboy?

>>714838696 (OP)
I find it amusing how the heroes journey now is the subversion and being subversive is now the basic bitch "I can't write" shit

>>714839131
Lord of the Rings managed to do it with Legolas and Gimli and Merry and Pipin.

But that's also the thing: it was JUST them and not everyone. And they are also just supporting characters. And the moment Merry and Pipin got separated in Return of the King their joking attitude stopped as well.

The MCU treats humopr and seriousness like it should be 50/50 when it really should be 90-95% serious with tiny dashes of "gallow's humor" to ease the tension a little.

>>714842884
The fact you read someone saying "this shit modern analysis of the classics is shit" and go "you hate the classics?" means you have the IQ of a slug and do more disrespect to said classics than a jeet using them as toilet paper

>>714849524
Is smol e using his psyker power to divine where her hands move and seeing all the possible moves to avoid them or is cultist chan moving extremely fast?

>>714851881
Finally, the age of truth. All these cranky opinionated morons can get mad at other people not having conforming opinions.

>>714838696 (OP)
The hero's journey is 100% fake bullshit that describes basically nothing, but was used as a pattern for the most uninteresting media properties ever.

>>714895048
you dumb?

>>714895380
What stories written before A Hero with 1000 Faces do you think it the HJ actually describes?
List some for me, if you would.

>>714840190
oh my science! youre right!

>>714880147
They take some phrase and dress it up to seem impressive as a way to pretend to be wise.

>>714838696 (OP)
The only game I ever felt did the Hero's journey story well was FF4. Every other RPG I've played makes it usually feel more like the party's journey than the MC's.

Radiata Stories

It's so funny to read this thread and try to relate to any of you based on your arguments or complaints. There are too many meta-layers that are getting confused. I am glad I live in a society where I don't have to participate, I can just observe and not get involved.

>>714839131
>>714841195
And yet /v/ loves pic related

>>714840259

It doesnt work because that's not how the scene goes

Everyone thinks he's dead, then Hulk lets out a sad and griefing roar that wakes up Tony, brushing the sad away, then Tony starts naturally being his quippy self

Of course many people died so we get a montage of grateful citizens that now cheer for the Avengers who may not have saved the earth, but avenged it (that's why these movies work, they can be immoral and then still pretend to be heroes for people and cool toys for little kids

>>714859618
The Monomyth is just thesis of the combined folklore, mythological and religious text. I dont think you understand what you're talking about, since its been used as a 'blueprint' in scripts since its publication in the '50s.
>>714895048
You're an idiot and dont understand what you're talking about.
>>714895441
Pretty much every folk fantasy told. Beowulf, Buddha, Story of Gilgamesh, Prometheus. You can find shitload of this stuff from Greek mythology alone.

t. screenwriter.

>>714896984
Beowulf was already a hero when the story started. He liked fighting monsters and specifically sought them out.
The Buddha does not complete a cycle back to his start point of a spoiled prince, but learning life lessons. He literally leaves the cosmos to go save the Gods and starts a cult that lasted a thousand years.
Gilgamesh was a bastard when the story started, and extremely powerful and liked to start fights rather than act reactively to external threats. He does return home at the end, but only after totally failing at his quest.
Prometheus has nothing at all to do with the hero's journey at all and isn't even a hero in a literary sense.

Every single example you gave doesn't fit the monomyth pattern because the monomyth pattern is totally inaccurate to actually describing anything historical.
It only worked to perscribe a pattern for stories written after the book's publication.

>>714897465
Thanks for the laugh.
Gilgamesh's journey begins when his friend Enkidu dies, im not gonna waste my time writing the rest.
Try to read the book and then use your time arguing.

t. screenwriter

Best Hero's Journey coming through.

>>714897674
>gilgamesh's story starts after he was already a legendary hero and the coolest guy ever

>>714838696 (OP)
Because i hate male characters who get happy endings

>>714887932
name?

>>714842598
>>714843061
Reminds me of the Expanse show.
>Meteors hit Earth
>A few million die
Meanwhile it's billions in the book.

>>714897756
You dont understand what the Journey means, so im not going to waste my time with you.
>>714897746
One of my fav. book series, but saying its 'best' in this sense is just kinda undermining how complex the story is.

t. screenwriter.

>>714897746
>*blocks yuor path*

>>714897964
Simple is better. Simple is best.
BotNS is a hero's journey story about loneliness.

>>714897964
The HJ format is built on a protagonist that is plucked from obscurity and becomes a hero through difficult experiences it is holistic and complete, it is not a story about one adventure that a powerful leader that had many adventures went on.
Stories about Gilgamesh fighting monsters were just as important as him failing to become immortal to the people at the time.

>>714864387
No it doesn't
It adds the story and the themes the creator is trying to present

Hero's journey and a lot of basic stories rely on principal of "universal balance"
>If you do good, good will happen to you
>Evil is bound to lose

Which is false because you got pedos living posh lives and kids getting bombed (by the pedos)

>>714899382
Hero's Journey doesnt mean the protagonist has to be 'good' and the antagonist 'evil', or that the story has to have a 'positive' tone.
Ethics and moral has no say if the story is a Hero's Journey or not.

t. screenwriter.

>subversion is always le bad
This is such a retarded statement, it's like saying making things hard to figure in your painting is bad because it deviates from basic principles
Nothing is good or bad in a vaccum
Depends on how it's done
Secario is a good example
Basic revange story subverted to make points about people and power and pawns

>>714899620
But it people are expect some sort of balance from every story
>Why did ned stark got beheaded?
When he only did good things and made right choices

>im fucking plying

>>714899886
You cant choose your audiences reaction, and you should not try to have 'balance', whatever that means. The story has to be great, and well told.
If we are going to talk about Ned dying, its the perfect subversion. It fits the story's theme and its a 'masks fall off' moment of the story. This is what Game of Thrones is about.
Now we can argue if Ned really is the one going through The Journey (i think not, i think Jon Snow is the protagonist), that's a different topic.

t. screenwriter.

>>714843076
Oy Vey!

>>714897878
Boku no pico class 3

>>714844940
You wouldn't expect something as cute as the Uberfairy to come from Nocture of all things desu

why do most games have such terrible writing that even Naruto puts them to shame

>>714848897
you mentioned nothing about writing from the heart in your previous post. you are only thinking it in your head, people aren't going to just assume that what you meant, dingus

>>714901271
One argument would be, people today live a lot through internet and phones. When actual experiences are replaced with social media interaction, it's hard to dig up your own experiences to write something about.

Another argument would be, we're getting bombarded by so many ideas and stories through the internet, that writing something inspired and unique is difficult. Also to mention, since we're experiencing stories through movies, TV shows, Youtube series, video games, podcasts and TikTok feeds, we spend less time reading books which are forced to have actual coherent, forward moving and rewarding plots and writing.

>>714897465
The stories you mentioned neatly fit into the hero's journey retard

>>714838861
The replies to you proof tjat we are invaded by ESL's, kek

>>714896554
>that's why these movies work
>they can be immoral and then still pretend to be heroes for people and cool toys for little kids

No. why they still making stories for the 80-years-old IPs of Marvel/DC?

>>714857852
That's the kind of story that's objectively kino.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPTuIKpugn4

>>714897916
Earth is most empty in the live-action. 99% of humans live in Moon, Mars, Belters or the worlds of the Ring network.
Earth in a giant farm with robotic farmers and few cities with humans.

>>714860385
It makes you seethe because its true. Imagine being so deranged you have to dedicate your life to protecting a race of lying sociopathic pedophiles. Seriously, reflect on that.

>>714882870
>Again the retard saying'its not le "real"therefore its shiet'

>>714901271
Its not necessary in the fault of the story or how its written, but how it is told.
RDR2 is perfect, BG3 has alot of good stuff.
I dunno what other games actually attempt to tell story as well and as deep as these two, but as a writer i can imagine its a HELL to try to have a engaging story when the audience can just walk out of the room and return in a day or week - or just choose to spend the next 3 hours grinding a cool looking sword from some bandits at the hill two story beats ago.

t. screenwriter.

Shrek is subversive yet everyone loves it

>>714909409
Because its very standard Hero's Journey / underdog story.

>>714907812
sure its not a movie to follow a scrip but most games cant even bother with basics of drama and character motivation and development
>the world is ending/great evil awoken/alien demons coming from a portal
>you are a chosenone (totally randomly) now go save the world!
thats what most games are

>>714909409
Because the tropes it subverts don't involve the standard hero's journey

>>714838696 (OP)
Everything has to be misery porn now. I can't stand it anymore. It's probably why I haven't stepped foot inside the cinema in a coon's age.

>>714839131
you can weave in levity tastefully but this is a lost art that you wont find in marvel shit

Shakespeare was subversive
Tolkien was subversive
Lynch is subversive
Kojima is subversive
Yokotaro is subversive

You people have no fucking clue what you're talking about

>>714907812
RDR 2 was satire and misery porn of the worst ilk. Last two chapters were such utter slogs that I was convinced Rockstar Games forgot they were in the industry of developing interactive entertainment and somehow deluded themselves they were making a sequel to t he Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Jewish nihilism (and I mean that in the most clinical sense, not as a disparaging remark) is the most depressing, soul-siphoning kind of nihilism there is. The media of the 80s, 90s and early 2000s were all trying to back against this sort of thing. But apparently it was to no avail.

>>714910640
Eat shit and die.

>>714910884
Utterly irrelevant to the point at hand. You're looking at Tolkien through a completely modern lens, with a modern bias and modern expectations. Back then, LotR was subversive.

>>714897820
Fuck off Neil Cuckmann

>>714842235
https://voca.ro/1nNaXBRFnVGh

>>714838696 (OP)
lol i bet the hero's journey has destroyed the lives of so many fucking nerds. they got in shape, got the career and car and whatever, and then they still die as lonely kissless nerds. kike entertainment where the chubby nerd and his nerd friends win the day and get their just rewards in the form of the hot chick next door, have probably helped ruin countless lives...

>>714911061
Sure thing, retard

>>714839131
the whedon era had a good run. i did really reeeeeeaaalllllllllllyyyyyy like firefly, though, i have to say. insane how that show was cancelled. literally every single episode was a full 10/10 episode.

>>714911751
This sounds like a cope you tell yourself to justify being an out of shape neet.

>>714838696 (OP)
The problem with the "hero's journey" is that people follow it so literally and beat-by-beat that it becomes indistinguishable from everything else. As much as I like Dragon Quest, each game's story is basically mad libs with different highly fuckable women. But then you get the opposite problem where people try to deviate so far from the hero's journey that you get some dadaist fucking garbage like YIIK where the hero isn't really the hero, you just play as some aimless nerd who jerks off in a corner until the world ends and then cries because there's nobody left to watch him jack off i hear the update last december gave it a story that doesnt suck so hard but i am speaking about what i played god damn it.

The closest I can think to a game that does a hero's journey story while putting a twist on it that lets you think about the story up to that point in a different light, would be LISA. even if Brad isn't really "a hero," there's still an excellent case to be made for why he goes to the lengths he goes to, and how Buzzo isn't a hero even when he helps out at the end of Joyful. Basically, people are just fucking idiots with how they write things. Everyone wants to stand out so hard, and they think the easiest way to do it is to just do the opposite of what you see in the classics. Subversion works when it isn't for the sake of subversion, you have to go somewhere with it. Don't pull the rug out from the reader/watcher/player's feet unless there's a comfy pillow underneath.

It's the attempt to be different for the sake of being different. It's the same reason moral relativism has replaced clear-cut good vs evil narratives.

Plebs will drone on about nuance, while at the same time they are unable to articulate why nuance is preferable to classic rigid morality.

>>714838861
So, you're saying the single most universal human story it was okay in the past but not today?

>>714854604
>The more creative freedom he got, the worse Buffy got.
Didn't he offload most of the responsibility to work on Angel? If so, then that that would contradict would you've said since everyone regards the high school seasons as the best.

>>714910640
None of this means anything.
>>714911751
I dont think you understand what you're talking about.

t. screenwriter.

I don't understand why people are conflating story beats and structure with the actual substance of the story when those are totally different things

>>714910640
This. Subversion is necessary for the medium to evolve, it has always been like this. The most popular novel in the world, Don Quixote, is probably also the most subversive piece of work in written history

>>714912787
because i'm not a writer, despite what everyone else says.

>>714838696 (OP)
Adult conservative "men" who desire every story to be generic hero's journey slop strike me as remarkably incurious and undeveloped people, completely arrested by nonexistent empathy and a childish view of the world. They value art not as expression but as a means of enforcing a fascistic social ideology that they learned not from observation and deduction but from being told what to think. It's downright pitiable.

>>714912787
Because they believe the substance is tied into the structure.

>>714856118
>socialist
>working against one world government while helping his friends reclaim various monarchies
uh

>>714839131

>>714841571
peak abrahamist right there

>>714896130
>Resident Evil 4 OG
>Dark
Everything after the vilage (which is like 66% of the game) is absolutely ridiculous whacky shit happening one after another.
Really the only 'dark' part of Resident Evil 4 is the end credits.

>>714911751
Trying to do something and failing is far better than just being a retard who never tries. Plus you can always try again

>>714843435
i may regret saying this, but that female writter(forgot her name) that worked on it is probably the reason why it was so good, wheedon is a fucking moron.

>>714913245
That's why they're called conservative.

Where are the games about the monster's journey?

>>714839131
>Tony Stark got pretty popular, how about we turn every single character in our movies into Tony Start?
The MCU was fucking retarded and im glad its flopping hard now

I've come to conclusion that 95% of the thread doesnt understand what Hero's Journey is.

t. screenwriter

>>714868760
>but then reintroduce all the problems Christianity solved and everyone's miserable for it without even knowing why.
maybe if you didn't carry a fucking servitude chain for jews attached to your "solved problems"

>>714846691
mortimer is always the same come the next episode thoughbeit

>>714885685
>Im' ,not mad ta lla
kek, hands shaking there, little fella?

>>714841195
>Yeah I know Coulson survives cause of some Disney+ show nobody watched
I thought he lived because of the tease in the movie + the TV show ads showing he was alive. Apparently what really happened is he did die, then was brought back to life with magic, then the magic wore off and he died again. Pretty lame.

When was the last time a game featured a purely evil villain with no tragic backstory and no attempt to justify their actions?

>>714910640
My balls are subversive thats why everyone loves to suck my balls, baby

>>714910489
evangelion is thirty years old thoughbeit

>>714841571
Based and Mashallahpilled, total troontheist death is the answer

>>714914664
get fucked jew puppet

>>714914761

>>714912115
if so, how come i have read so many posts here and other places in my life, about how have tried pulling themselves together, just for nothing to come of it?

>>714912769
i'm pretty sure i do

>>714915141
why did you upload your webcam footage?

>>714849038
No, because he never actually returns home.
The entire point of Jacks story is that he's not the hero. He doesn't get to return home with the reward. That is for the Warriors of Light to do.
His journey is to see to it that they get to.

>>714913762
>maybe if you didn't carry a fucking servitude chain for jews attached to your "solved problems"

Serving Jews isn't a part of Christianity. Why would it when the Jews killed the focal point of the religion in the first place?

>>714838696 (OP)
So you guys care about games with their stories?

>>714838861
Yep. That was the original point it wasn’t “yeah a million other people wrote like this so just copy them because you’re lazy and uncreative lmao”

>>714838861
The problem with trying to subvert it is that it's so generic that it fits any story.
Genuinely, it's just
>things happen to characters
>characters change due to things that happen

How about you just fucking kill yourself if you want to subvert that? That's the only way to avoid the Hero's Journey.

>>714842884
>you have no fucking clue where you're going.
He's going to nowhere at best, to utter demise at worst.

>>714849650
it's the little details that "rat them out" lol

>>714841119
How many european countries had a cross on their flag before the soulless tricolor shit?

Nearly everyone who complains about “subversion” almost always reveal they barely play games

“Subversions” always existed and aren’t a uniquely recent phenomenon. Dragon Quest VI “subverted” the formula by having your son be the hero, not you. Planescape Torment “subverted” the idea of a succubus by having a chaste succubus who enjoys pleasant conversation, and that was back in the 90s. Ultima 8 was a “subversion” of the Ultima formula in that the Avatar needed to make morally questionable decisions, and that was also in the 90s.

>>714841634
the only good thing about the sequel is that 16yo actress

mgq is the perfect hero's journey story, just straightforward story of heroism no deconstruction.

>>714844456
Yeah checkout buddy
Your IQ aint cut for that work

>>714921503
Actually MGQ is a subversion. The generic story is “go kill the Demon Lord because God told you so”. In MGQ many of the monsters aren’t actually evil and the Demon Lord becomes your lover. And the final boss is God

>>714903340
Literally none of them do and you can't actually justify that for any.

>>714921463
I think when people hate subversion, they hate when its done distastefully or as an attack against the characters and world they live in. Stuff like The Last Jedi or TLOU 2. Deconstruction is another one people dislike, because they often feel like its again an attack on them and the media they love.

>>714921672
And that’s why the complaint about “subversions” or “deconstruction” is meaningless. It’s not “subversion bad” it’s “this particular subversion is bad, because x, y, and z”. KOTOR 2 basically mocked the entirety of Star Wars lore and was mostly praised here

>>714854248
NTR alert

>>714841195
>Also people don't quip when they're near death
Incorrect.
>"Vae, puto deus fio." ("Dear me, I think I'm becoming a god")
Admittedly, far more common when they are comfortably passing away in their homes.

>>714921463
Congratulations, you're halfway to discovering the idea that subversion can be done the worst retard on the planet.
How about you subvert the idea that things happen in the story next, and it's just not text at all? How about you subvert the idea that the writing uses words, and you instead convey it using grunts?
You can go and subvert expectations you have for your life by hanging yourself right now.

>>714910640
Kojima is a retard

>>714919046
lol. what a total fucking beta.

>>714860385
>>714860605
Every single time. You guys are way too predictable. Shalom!

>>714838861
truke, same goes for people who brainlessly adhere to the rigid dramatic structure they learned in High School English class

>>714921795
Thats what its always been. One thing thats easy to notice is /v/ is overly emotional and when people are like this for better or worse, its hard or impossible for them to articulate their thoughts in a constructive manner. I get it, people are passionate for their hobby but it would help if they just got more specific so we could avoid 300+ posts of everyone just saying they hate subversion. Like one anon said, Shrek is subversive yet it does not treat the audience like idiots and the main character isn't a punching bag or wildly unlikeable. Its literally a misnathrope realizing hes found friends and the love of his life, while also poking fun at tired Disney tropes.

>>714920830
based

>>714838696 (OP)
>heroes journey
I always thought that was so stupid. I don't know if this thing has been around since the classical writers, or if it's the invention of a university professor trying to bring order to chaos, but heroes are just really strong guys who solve problems (usually with force) and bring peace and happiness. Everything else is gay stuff.

>>714840190
Considering that the guy is probably from Hollywood, then he meant God, but he's referring to Lucifer.

>>714839131
This is ultra relevant to /co/

>>714921960
He's closer to the actual writer of the story, since he completely derails the Lufenians plan, and gives the world hope by being the chaos it can rally against.
He can't have a happy ending, but can make sure that the Lufenians won't either.

>>714911061
What was subversive about LotR?
The fact that little, weak hobbits were the heroes and noble humans of royal blood were greedy?

>>714914375
DQ 11

>>714922720
Unironically yes. The protagonist isn’t Aragorn who is the conventional hero, it’s Frodo, the tiny hobbit whose main struggle is the temptation from the ring.

There's very intelligent ways to subvert the hero's journey. Only problem is that it requires intelligence from the writer, and the writer has to have some idea what to subvert, preferably with life experiences. The problem is the witless and sarcastic deconstruction part, not the subversive part.

Example of subverting the idea of "the mentor." What if the mentor is kind of lost but knows they have to do their part? That's a tale as old as time. Relatable, encouraging. Stuff of legends really. Deconstruction in general is retarded and raises the age old nihilist point of "what do you want to achieve?" Most deconstruction is done because of boredom for tropes. That's a very poor justification to deconstruct stories that clearly weren't always boring. Deconstructing the idea of a formula is smart, deconstructing the formula itself is retarded if you catch the nuance.

>>714846746
Donnie Darko

>>714921835
Cicero's is pretty good, and he was about to be executed.
>Ego vero consisto. Accede, veterane, et, si hoc saltim potes recte facere, incide cervicem.
>I go no further: approach, veteran soldier, and, if you can at least do so much properly, sever this neck.

Archimedes is also funny, depending on the source, since he basically tells an enemy soldier to fuck off since he's busy drawing circles.

>subvert hero's journey
>the hero's journey template is so malleable it adapts to anything even your story
>you created 2 hero journeys

>>714910640
>Yokotaro is subversive
Fuck no he's not. He's been making the same kind of turbo edge miseryporn slop for two decades now. Only time he was subversive was when Platinum tardwrangled him into giving Automata a happy ending.

>>714922828
Also the idea of magical items being too powerful/corrupting for anyone to use. Before, magic artifacts were meant to be given only to those who are worthy or who “earned it” (Excalibur, the Golden Fleece, etc). The One Ring is too powerful for anyone to wield and is a corrupting influence for anyone who desires it

>conservatives discover media literacy for the first time: the thread

>>714868760
I just outright unironically do not believe that any religion on Earth is real.

>>714923658
Tolkien got a lot of inspirations from different mythologies. The cursed objects have many parallels with his inspirations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71fLFOjruFc
Tolkien loved the story of Kullervo in Finnish mythology and considering the philosophical themes in the books, I'm pretty sure Smeagol is inspired by Kullervo.

That's the thing, he's inspired by stories but he weaves in his own experiences. That has inherent value.

>>714923760
Media literacy was invented by conservatives, due to the fear of TV and radio making boomers retarded (which they might have been right about).
If anything the increase in use of the phrase lately is because zoomers discovered it for the first time, and thinks it's something no one else has ever heard of.

>>714922681
lol, all i know is, it's beta behavior to risk your life for the alpha. he'll get all the glory, while the beta will get jack-fuck-all.

I'm probably the only tard that likes the idea of the heroes journey being more so as a deuteragonist than the mc's. Because, it makes it feel like we went the distance more than the actual hero.

>>714839131
I hate Joss Whedon with all my being

>>714838696 (OP)
>We hate the heroes journey now and every games storyline arc needs to be subversion, deconstruction or riddled with sarcasm.
>Why?
Because you have no interest in changing a world that suits you so well.

>>714839131
How do normies find this endearing, it just insufferable?

>>714915646
Because you gravitate towards neets and losers like yourself.

>>714839131
>>714911895
If Joss Whedon just made Buffy and Firefly and fucked off afterwards into the sunset, people would praise him. Yes these shows were quippy, but they were shows made to be quippy instead of shoehorning "wow that just happened" jokes into what should otherwise be weighty moments. Hell, even Firefly reined it in a lot of the time from what I remember.
Unfortunately he couldn't just step away and now him, his writing, and everyone else copying his style has destroyed any and all honest writing and character development.

>>714839131
I almost died once and the last thing out of my mouth before the accident was "Well shit" in a dry resigned tone and afterward when I was thinking about it all I could think was I almost did a cringie quip before possibly dying as my last action.

>>714841074
High out of his fucking mind on coke going surfing all around the world, being the director of the NRA, and serving as an outside consultant for a US military think tank all in between writing Kurtz's soliloquies in Apocolypse Now and getting up petitions for Roman Polanski to be able to return to the States.

I have "sincerity"cuck fatigue

>>714922720
"I'm no man" was a subversion

>>714924612
You aren't capable of a thought process above tiktok comments, go back.

>>714839131
The bottom panels is the sort of joke I see in anime sometimes.

>>714838696 (OP)
Because californian cucks are alien to the concept of ambition and striving to be something bigger and better through great effort and challenge, all they know is instant gratificatiion to further reinforce their already idealized mediocrity.

>>714838696 (OP)

>>714931581
why did Chipchip do it, bros?

>>714931581
what the heck this poster SPOILED Monster Rancher...

>>714931581
fuck that noise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CKQqDMusIo

>>714923797
Go read Dominion by Tom Holland. You don't need to believe in God, but you sure as hell need to understand its impact on humanity and world if you want to maintain your quality of life (nevermind improve it back to your grandfather's level). The biggest revelation I got over the years (not necessarily from the book) is that your moral system is instilled upon you from your environment. Yes, you'll have your own flavor but it doesn't fall too far from your apple tree.

Dominion dives into the moral system Christianity introduced and how it influenced the world to be more welcoming, safer, more respectul, and fairer for EVERYONE, man, women, and children, slaves and masters.

>>714924670
You'd want to have an interest to maintain the world that already suits you. What a dumb line.

>>714845240
But he hit him with the weapon and found out what it does!

>>714840190
great flying spaghetti monster, he's scientifically accurate!
call the STEM department at harvard, quickly, this man needs a grant!