Thread 715772670

>Game has lots of Enemy attacks that don't have a counterplay.
>e.g homing shots that are 100% guaranteed damage and can't be avoided
>devs slap these moves in there with zero design sense or gameplay in mind.
>no challenge to overcome, does very little damage and serves no mechanical/gameplay purpose.
>is there purely for superficial spectacle and ruins no damage runs

In proper game design (Everything from DMC to KH2 to mario to pacman) every enemy attack is a challenge to the player, to avoid, parry, jump, ect.
and it's possible to beat every encounter without taking damage and without exploiting things like cinematic i-frames or stunlocking.
but what about when the attacks have no design? and are nothing more than spectacle to be tanked to give the illusion of a fight?

what are some other examples of action games that don't have tangible design?

>>715772670 (OP)
don't try to bring sense to other games, they will just call you a dmc cultist or something retarded

>run n gun boss fight
>there are arbitrary "don't touch" obstacles that are completely unrelated to the boss or their attacks that are only there for the sake of "added challenge"

>>715772670 (OP)
DPS check, blocking builds ATB. Makes sense.

nah having an unconditional block button (royal guard) is actual bad design
it makes everything trivial

>>715772670 (OP)
not all games want to give you a hardcore action experience you sweat over for months of your life, some just want to be a cool finite adventure

>>715773327
1. that's not what a DPS check is retard. it would have to do 100x more damage
2. this is not an RPG where you're bolted to the ground. it's a real time action game.

>>715773337
Royal guard has 6 frame window.
if you're good enough to parry everything you're a master at the game, you earned that guard.

>>715773520
>this is not an RPG
>it's a real time action game
it's a hybrid of both

>>715773520
Jesus Christ you're a retard

>>715776045
so is KH2.
real time movement means you need real time game design standards.

bump hold on

>game can be beaten by holding down a single button for an invincible super move
>has invisible mines after a boss with no checkpoint or hints on how to avoid the mines
>attacks from off screen
>enemies that spawn at a certain save point every time on top of you
I could go on but the Ninja Gaiden games are genuine shovelware

>>715781474
I'm asking for any other games that have combat design so bad that there's no consideration for how you avoid damage and damage is unavoidable.
like enemies have attacks that will 100% just damage you with no intended way to avoid them.
Every attack and grab in Ninja Gaiden games can be parried or dodged. The games are just so fucking hard and ruthless that there's only like 3 people in the world who have done a no damage playthrough.

the closest thing ninja gaiden has to unavoidable damage i think is enemies and bosses have RNG dodging.
maybe that there's no way to shake of incendiary shuriken and only i-frame exploits work but can just not get hit by them to begin with.

>>715782164
Holy fuck LOL
anon...

>>715782216
Use your words if you have them mongoloid. you can do this.

>>715782252
If you think NG is good then there's no point, you are beyond saving

>>715772670 (OP)
there's nothing inherently wrong about forced damage. You're just mad because it makes you feel bad.
I remembering liking the way Remember Me had forced damage. Some of the enemies had a reactive barrier or some shit so everytime you punch them you take damage, but you also unlock a healing move for your combo editor at the same time. So you need to balance taking off damage ups for healing to handle the guaranteed damage.

>>715782339
I said the enemy moves were still designed with ways for you to block or avoid them sot it's still better than 7R.
I'm wanting to hear about games as sloppy as that..

>>715782714
If you think 7R is badly designed wait until you play true garbage like Chaos Legion, Nanobreaker and Ninja Gaiden

>>715782479
That sounds like fucking awful design.
Usually when enemies have that you're supposed to use projectile to disable the barrier.
You should never have to heal if you're playing perfectly.

>>715782825
nah it works well. Again it makes you actually think a little bit about how your build your combos and what order you target enemies in.
I guess maybes that's a bit too much thinking for you.

>>715782479
What does it add other than bad design and removal of satisfaction? not rewarding a player for playing perfect?
just making them eat shit for no reason when they've made no mistakes?
there is not a single good reason for any of these moves to exist. they only exist because the devs forget they're making a video game and veiw everything as a scripting a movie.
>oh the protagonist takes a few hits in this fight scene here to make things look more interesting.

>>715782743
>Nanobreaker
it's on by backlogue

>>715772670 (OP)
lol, massive skill issue
Thanks for outing yourself, no need to read further

>>715772670 (OP)
I'm not really into action games, but my complaints when playing them are:
>convenient movesets locked behind "upgrades"
>having upgrade systems and cool movesets locked behind shop or upgrades for replayability’s sake, instead of just making said movesets hard to use (for comparison, Gran Turismo locks faster cars because they’re harder to control tho if a newbie can pass the license test, it's almost guaranteed they can handle the cars)
>RPG systems in action games
>forced damage that somehow hurt your "no damage" status
>DMC style switching (luckily it’s exclusive to DMC and one character)
>scoring system is not centered around the combat
>turn based boss behavior (boss does an unstoppable attack, then suddenly takes a break which becomes your turn to deal damage)
There’s more, but these are usually my main complaints

>>715773593
no

>>715783589
kill yourself nigger retard. The only way not to take damage from moves like that is to exploit i-frames which is unintended and not viable as a defense every time these moves happan.
it has nothing to do with skill.

>>715786041
>exploit i-frames
exploit i-frames from a limit mind you, and you can't just use a limit whenever you want.

>>715782479
You're literally describing damage as a puzzle and calling it good design. No, forced damage is not “deep” just because the game flails a band-aid at you with a healing input or combo tweak. It’s a cheap way to simulate difficulty and breaks the entire feedback loop of mastery. You didn’t mess up-there was no telegraph, no timing to learn, no spacing to correct-just got hit because lol you exist. If the game’s idea of strategy is “intentionally take hits and juggle healing” then congrats, it’s a janky numbers management sim, not an action game anymore.

>>715772670 (OP)
FF7R is an ARPG. Plus they have way to easily recover health.

>>715781474
Filtered

>>715788787
wut? NG is a total meme series

>>715772670 (OP)
In other words, you want every action game to be a parry/roll slop.

>>715772670 (OP)
7R is just a bad game in general

I'd say every RPG ever has bad design because the game has to accomodate for a moveset that isn't fixed. Leading to extremely generic enemies, bosses, environments and enounters.

>>715772670 (OP)
>Blocking reduces damage to single/double digits
>Perfect blocking nulls damage outright
Clearly the game is trying to teach you it favors blocking over rolling. Then again so many games have 'blocking' as a feature but only reward outright dodging aggravates me. Monster Hunter's gotten better for rewarding guarding (damage boost for doing it, longer duration hitboxes and multihits you can't just parry/dodge past without getting clipped), but you can still tell the weapons with dodges/parries just outperform guards by a large gap. I want action games that actually reward for making use of the guard function, instead of it feeling like a last second concession to let less skilled people just clear content.

>>715782825
Plenty of games use health as a resource, even some relatively modern ones like blasphemous.

>>715789607
>I want action games that actually reward for making use of the guard function, instead of it feeling like a last second concession to let less skilled people just clear content.
Play stranger of paradise

>>715789607
What the fuck are those hit stops? Is the entire game like this?

>>715789762
I thought that was anon's cpu getting ragged

>>715789758
SoP and Nioh 2 are both in my ballpark of really good action games. I just wish SoP wasn't such a strain on PC's in general to do more co-op with for it's DLC.
>>715789762
Perfect Guards causes hitstop. Stagger causes hitstop. Selective attack enders have hitstop. I'll admit I was never bothered by it though.

>>715789979
>SoP and Nioh 2 are both in my ballpark of really good action games. I just wish SoP wasn't such a strain on PC's in general to do more co-op with for it's DLC.
Then I'm out of suggestions, as far as arpgs go I think both n2 and sop are some of the best for actually engaging combat systems. Especially in sop the defence options and how they feed into your offense is great and never feels unfair

I don't have time for this bullshit

>>715789607
Why does the game stutter every 0.2 seconds what is this clown shit

>>715790464
Buffering

>>715790176
Semi wishing I had recorded more SoP in general. Only had this on hand as I wanted to show a friend the Tonberry "Rub it's head till it explodes" finisher. Legit though loved it front and back, but I'm the only one with a 40 series+ card, everyone else I know is still on a 10 series. So SoP just does not play nice for them over say Nioh 2.

>>715790836
I had a shitty pc and only recently upgraded to 5070ti but I used to get disgusting stutters in sop. Shame these games are so poorly optimized.
>marksman
Took some self restraint not to use a gun with starlight skill on marksman. This game is too easy to just break

>>715772670 (OP)
>boss has very large, unblockable, telegraphed attack
>so large that it requires your entire stamina bar to avoid
>it does this attack multiple times in a row

>>715788375
>auto-action
>no roleplaying
Was FF7R your very first video game?

>>715789653
1. blasphemous is fucking shit in every way.
2. using HP as a resource is not the same as the enemy design being so bad their attacks just do guaranteed damage. Skilled players can simply choose not to use skills that consume HP. it isn't forced damage that flatout prevents players from doing perfect runs.

>>715789607
play old monster hunter games then. The only moves you could roll through where ones where you only briefly touched the hitbox like swipes or roars, unless you specifically took the armor skill that that gives your dodge more i-frames.

>>715789607
Part 1 is an awful piece of shit that has shit mobility, a worthless guard and a non-functional dodge that not only has no i-frames but also has a large hitbox.
I hear Part 2 fixes most of these problems but still subjects you to bad design like unavoidable damage in a select few places.

>instead of it feeling like a last second concession to let less skilled people just clear content.
it is. good players are perfectionists. they do not take damage.

A guard takes almost no skill and still results in damage. lt can only be as good as a parry if it results in 0 damage. for that;
-Kingdom hearts guard is a long parry that has a punishing end lag if you throw it out early.
-Ninja Gaiden and Kirby games have a guard that takes 0 damage and the times parry mechanic is a counter instead.
-DMC5 has a fall back fro normal royal guards where guarding will consume DT before HP.
-SOP has a standard weapon guard but also a magic based guard that will parry anything only it costs a vital defensive stamina like resource to hold in activated mode.

>>715782479
Forced damage doesn't make sense to me as a mechanic unless you gain something from taking damage. It's like if SMB randomly spawned a shell on top of Mario to delete your powerup, for no reason.

>>715796009
even if the spawning shell gave me another power up in return, I'd still feel pissed off.
I'd refund anything with such cheap senseless design.

>>715772670 (OP)
Not every game has to play the same, soulsshitter faggot

>>715796393
Absolutely nobody brought up FromSoftware until you did faggot

>>715796393
>Not every game has to play the same
That a great way to defend objectively bad design sin, without any justification.

>why'd you rape that girl you know there are laws against it for good reason
>You're honar saarrr, not everyone needs to make sex tha same.

>>715772670 (OP)
This is because 7R is trying to be more RPG and not full blown action like the other games you mentioned. For the type of game it's trying to be it's fine.

>>715796851
NTA but no, forced damage is fucking dogshit, i can only tolerate it in area exploration where the challenge is to grab as many or all the valuables, while spending as little time and resources doing it

>>715797106
Don't play rpg hybrids like 7R where gear and stats matter more than player skill.

>>715796851
it is full blown action.
You're not bolted to the ground, you never have to wait for any enemy turn (unless you count the enemy known as Square making it a slog filled forced walking simulator for 90% of the game) you have real time attacks, a special and EX gauge, a real time dodge.
There are even moves with clear counter play strategies, timed windows for dodging into enemy charge attacks to vault over them (like countering an enemy charge with neros buster in DMC4).
so it seems to be the small pool of about 7% unavoidable attacks are the outlier that are the simple product of incompetence from weaker members of the team, the same retards who thought they were designing a movie instead of a game.

all of doom 3 resurrection of evil
90s percent of it is an imp and vulgar show and it only gets remotely challenging in the last 30 or so minutes before the last boss fight

>>715797497
>it is full blown action.
It absolutely is not.

>>715797651
what makes it not action? what mechanic is it lacking that makes it exempt?