In the majority of classic 2D games, normal movement and jumping were your only defensive tools. Look at shit like metroid or megaman where bosses were heavily based around jumping over projectiles and attacks. Nobody complained about that stuff back then and only the most contrarian zoomers would cry about it now.

This combination of movement AND defense is part of why some people think 2D action games are better designed. Your "dodge" button has a lot of utility even in non-platform games like streets of rage. I think this is why 3D game dodges don't feel as satisfying because they're typically ONLY for defense, most of these games have dodges that don't go very far and have a lot of recover frames, it's function is very restrictive. I think to truly make a fun 3D action game, it needs to go back to 2D game philosophy where your "dodge" has a ton of utility and followup options, it's something you should be using for multiple different reasons beyond "me see windup me press roll"

Ninja Gaiden Black is better.

There's tons of better 3D examples than soulsslop. It's like comparing DMC to Bethesda combat.

>>715855150
ninja gaiden uses it's dodge for movement quit a lot and other movement tools to be evasive so it's good yes

>>715855069 (OP)
yeah that's really cool and all but if you're good enough to can kill bosses without dodging in Souls either, just by moving.
https://youtu.be/SHzdQ5I06hs

>>715855247
And the missed the point award goes to

Boomers had it good. Zoomers are cursed to eat 2010s slop and not know any better.

Soulsslop like God of War are industry fads that will fade away.

>>715855069 (OP)
Interesting philosophy. So you want to remove say rolling and replace it with a jump higher than normal. Then jump would be used to move around in the world but also be for dodging enemy attacks.
I guess the problem with this is it's one thing if whip man is jumping twice his body height in a 2D pixelated castle, but it looks awkward for a knight to just leap 12 feet in the air in a 3D game with photorealistic graphics. Moreover this impacts the way the entire game is designed because areas can no longer use normal-sized structures like buildings or players would easily be able to jump on top of them. This might be ok if you're a ninja, but probably not if you're a knight in full armor in a medieval setting. How would you address these issues?

Rollslop is just bad game design and easy to copy since it's one dimensional combat wise. Actual action games take more skill create.

>>715855069 (OP)
They're really the same if you ask me, the evasive maneuver is just on a different axis.

>>715855069 (OP)
Yeah you raise a good point, I do agree.

What about something like enemies and level design. Typically enemies are supposed to act as barriers to the player to make navigating the level harder. In a game like the Classicvanias where your movement is much more limited you're typically going to have to fight and attack ground enemies to get past them otherwise you take damage. But in games where your movement is faster and more capable especially ones where you can double jump, dash mid air, or dashing can allow you dodge past enemies with iframes, the player is given more opportunity to just run past the enemies to proceed the level.

Now the question is does that become more of a thing in 3D games due to the fact you're not limited to walking on a 2D plane?

>>715855524
3D dodges on the surface serve a similar function to 2D jumps. Outside of platforming, jumps let you dodge the majority of attacks and move you around the battlefield. Dodges technically serve the same function but the majority of games uses dodges in very restrictive ways.

I don't think jumps translate well to 3D at least for a precise action game, not that they can't be good or useful in a 3D action game but that it's harder to create equivalent issues with a 3D jump compared to a 2D one. That's why a dodge feels like it can be the equivalent but most games don't use it like that, especially since the rise of souls games.

>>715855069 (OP)
splatoon is a good example of this OP, squid mode makes you faster, greatly improves your movement (especially vertical motion), and replenishes your ink. However, you can't shoot, so it's essentially just to avoid trouble, even though it can do much more.

From that i would extrapolate that a good "dodge" should, like jumping is to megaman, integral to the design, rather than just feeling like a bolted on ability. No one would call jumping in these platformers an unneeded addition, one you could do without, but these examples you refer to often feel that way.

>>715855069 (OP)
muh invincibility frames

>>715855712
To me the key difference is that jumps go up and then go down. You are forced to go back to the ground, and so it dramatically changes your movement options. Roll is permanent, no force is immediately and constantly trying to move you back toward some plane that you rolled from, but jumping is exactly that. It's why Zelda 3 and Metroid 3 are significantly different and separate games, even if they are basically the same genre.

>>715856189
definitely. you can't move as much in 2d so you're forced to handle shit. 3d you can much more easily bypass. Castlevania 64 had this, but 3D sonic pushes it to the extreme. Ironically, ga games may be worse; SRB2 enemies might as well not exist.

>>715856871
fan games, sorry i am thonkposting at work

>>715855712
Not really.
1. Jumps can be analog. Holding jump can make you jump higher.
2. Jumps have an arc and fall-phase.
3. Jumps often have mid-air control - allowing you to change direction on a whim.

>>715857803
the ones without midair control arguably lead to more strategy, as you have to factor the arc and your momentum into the jump and can't change course of things go wrong.

>>715855069 (OP)
What do you think about modern 2D platformers integrating a dodge button? I personally think it sucks balls.

>>715856798
>no force is immediately and constantly trying to move you back toward some plane that you rolled from
They are actually. Here's a really autistic image I made to try and explain it.

If you were to think about a 2D game in "lanes" then you go from lane A (ground) to lane B (air) then back down. A dodge works similar but the "lanes" are fluid. When you dodge, you are switching lanes but it's a lane that exist on the same plane. When you switch lanes, at some point the enemies around you will face you, creating a new lane that is effectively similar to the one you were on before you dodged.

>>715858571
Only acceptable if it has no invincibility and the game has contact damage

>>715858725
>if it has no invincibility
Dodges are iframes. That is what modern game design have made them to be.

>contact damage
Dodges let you phase through enemies. One recent example which incorporated such design was NG ragebound. It is ironic that 2D games with restricted controls like castlevania are so much better than games that try to offer players all sort of movement gimmicks.

>>715855069 (OP)
>In the majority of classic 2D games, normal movement and jumping were your only defensive tools
This is also why every single Beat Em Up in existence sucks rancid ass compared Dungeons and Dragons, as it's one of the only ones that went well beyond such things, and it's crazy that it's held its title for so long. What isn't crazy is that OP is a retarded nigger that's spouting bullshit.

>>715858878
>Dodges are iframes. That is what modern game design have made them to be.
Not all of them. Hollow Knight actually is a good example. For most of the game the dodge has no i-frames and it's only later into the game do you get an i-frame version but the i-frames are still on a cooldown so the majority of bosses aren't really designed for you to i-frame through stuff, so you still end up using the dodge in a way that's not dependent on them.
>Dodges let you phase through enemies.
That's why I said no i-frames and contact damage.
>which incorporated such design was NG ragebound
Bad example, the dodge button actually has very good "jump-like" qualities to it as after dodge you get a special attack which is useful but also has noticeably more recovery and if you jump after a dodge you get an enhanced jump attack. I think it works well in this instance because it makes movement smoother and adds more depth to the combat since you HAVE to dodge in order to get these different attacks.

>>715859098
>Sucks ass at beat em up
>Calls me a nigger
Sounds like you need to git gud, baby ass bitch

>>715859139
Please turn off the CRT shader and curvature for the love of God.

What about ducking as a means to dodge? It can seem a bit more boring than simply jumping but I've played some games with it that use it in interesting ways.
>In Mario bro games, you maintain your momentum when you duck
>Can be used to avoid taking damage and shoot at a lower height like in Contra or Cuphead
>Castlevania just has basic ducking and for the igavanias, slide kicking, but a fair amount of bosses will have attacks with ducking in mind being a way to avoid them (think like how dracula will shoot fire balls at you from up high and down low, requiring you to alternate between ducking and jumping)
>Also it's just kind of funny to just dodge an attack by just simply ducking.
Also I don't know why some games don't really bother with ducking. It's not present in games like Hollow Knight and Nine Sols, and in Shovel Knight it just makes you do a dumb dance for your character.

>>715859772
Castlevania's ducking also has the utility of preventing knock back when hit while ducking. I think it is pretty neat.

>>715855069 (OP)
You only think that because you're a boomer

>>715859854
Oh shit I did not know that.

>>715860080
It's pretty much the most important thing that the final boss of Dracula X teaches you.

>>715859772
very few games try to utilize ducking, it's not bad it's just underutilized.

>>715860165
Oh so that's how you're supposed to beat him. I never played Dracula X as I just played Rondo instead but I hear stories about how hard Dracula is in X because his arena is just a bunch of platforms over a bottomless pit.

>>715859772
The answer is that ducking isn't dynamic or cool looking. People want flashy moves and flashier gameplay these days. "Actual game mechanics be damned, if a game looks good and movement is smooth despite the level design and challenge suffering for it then let it be" is what the core philosophy is.

>>715860260
>Oh so that's how you're supposed to beat him
You still get damage if you get hit while ducking. You just don't get knocked back into the pit and instantly die. If you know that mechanic the game forgives 3 of your mistakes instead of 1.

Fromsoft finally broke /v/ into insanity

>>715855069 (OP)

test

>>715855069 (OP)
she

>>715855069 (OP)
bump

>>715855069 (OP)
slop

>>715855069 (OP)
soul