Holy mother of fuck

>>715858393 (OP)
It really isn't that bad
There are worst things in etrian and wizardry

>>715858393 (OP)
Weak.
Very weak.

i hate zoomers so much

>>715858393 (OP)
K I N O
I
N
O

>>715858393 (OP)
This is an extremely simple level design. Japanese dungeon crawlers have a really bad habit where they "step max" and soullessly utilize every available tile without any coherent structure like the dev had to hit a board room quota and no one even playtested his map. Like would anything really change if they cut the copy pasted teleporter rooms in half? These exist solely to waste the player's time, EO is complete dogshit for the very same reason.

>>715858393 (OP)
Aside from the teleports in top left this doesnt look hard

>>715858614
let me guess- It's unreal?

>>715858591
hey i just reach the extra dungeon, its fun to explore in it, but is there a way to prevent it from crashing my pc in there?

>>715858742
>These exist solely to waste the player's time
Yeah, and so does anything other than a single straight hallway. That's the point, it's a dungeon. You're supposed to have pathways that don't lead forwards.

>>715858742
Bitch, have you seen any of the early wizardry maps? Those really suffered from "step maxxing" as you called it. That's just part of the genre.

>>715859036
Wizardry 1-3 came out in 1981, and except for some of the final floors it tries to mirror what could conceivably be real world floor plans, which japanese crawlers never do. I expect games to improve over time, not get exponentially worse. This isn't really debatable, these games have objectively bad maps for boring and easily entertained people.

>>715859187
>it tries to mirror what could conceivably be real world floor plans
This doesn't even matter. The two maps posted above not real world areas, one of them is intentionally created to be a maze for the sole purpose of being a maze. Muh realism is not an argument against the design of the maps.

>>715859187
Bro, making realistic maps is how you end up wjth that awful jail floor in wizardry 4 where you just walk on a spiralling hallway surrounded by dozens of identical tiny cell rooms that you need to individually explore otherwise you might miss something. Just copying real world designs doesn't make a map inherently better or worse.

>>715859523
>This doesn't even matter
It does matter because it's supposed to be an rpg, and therefore feel like an adventure, not soullessly slogging through cereal box mazes. As you go deeper in proving grounds, the floors go from logical living spaces to unhinged and surreal meat grinders, as Werdna turned the bottom floors into adventurer killing machines, since no one has any business going that deep. Wizardry 1 actually has quite impressive floor design full of interconnect shortcuts, secrets, and treasure, it's sort of like the old version of From Soft map design. Its not about "realism", it's about level design, same reason we no longer design fps as blocky rooms connected by linear hallways.

>>715859738
By your own logic, it's ok for Eridanus to look like a "cereal box maze" because it's literal part of a hell on earth maze that spawned in the antartic. It doesn't need to make sense in it's structure because it's not a man made building.

>>715860013
>it's ok for Eridanus to look like a "cereal box maze" because it's literal part of a hell on earth maze that spawned in the antartic
It's not when the whole game is that, and if that's the excuse then it's a bad concept for a game. There's no reason to have 8 3x3 identical teleporter rooms with poison tiles everywhere as your penultimate floor, that's just shitty and lazy.

>>715859738
It does not matter. You're just arbitrarily deciding what counts as an "adventure" and what aesthetics are allowed here, based on standards that also include things that aren't realistic anyway because absolutely no architect would ever design a building that looks like the maps you posted.
>an adventure through a castle to save a princess
>an adventure through a maze-like biological structure that's replicating human inventions and ideas to save a princess
These are functionally the same from the standards you've laid out. You're just arbitrarily claiming the latter has no level design without evidence.

>>715860151
>You're just arbitrarily deciding what counts as an "adventure" and what aesthetics are allowed here
It's about creating a mentally stimulating and immersive adventure. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to identify lazy and rushed map design. Crawlers live and die by their maps, the whole game is exploring maps, they shouldn't be something cooked up in 20 minutes. Everything about these handheld crawlers is so shitty and soulless, which is why in Proving Grounds you can find unique stuff like a ring that shoots fireballs, but in EO and SJ you're just picking up armor with higher stats on it. Demon's Souls is a more accurate successor to Wizardry because it recreates the joy of exploring unique levels and finding interesting treasure. These handheld games are just low effort time wasters for little kids.

>>715860102
>There's no reason to have 8 3x3 identical teleporter rooms with poison tiles everywhere as your penultimate floor, that's just shitty and lazy.
Bitch, hell doesn't care about your human logic. It can make it's hell mazes in whatever way it wants to. It's demon logic, it doesn't care what you think.
Having said this, you speak as if every floor of SJ is like that, when each floor is vastly different with it's own gimmick.
Seems to me like you're nosfalgic for a time that was never really as you remember it. All dungeon crawlers, old and new, have had the same issues you so ready ignore in old games but not in more recent ones; not that SJ is even new at all.

>>715860375
>Bitch, hell doesn't care about your human logic
Then it shouldn't feel like something made on a burnt out salary man's lunch break lol
>All dungeon crawlers, old and new, have had the same issues
No they don't and I've provided several examples of evolving dungeon design.

>>715858591
Why the fuck do all the Vita games with maps like that not work in Vita3K? It feels like a personal attack.

>>715860774
Because Vita3K is pretty shit. Either way, I feel like most of the relevant DRPGs on Vita have PC or console ports now

>>715858393 (OP)
Only the biggest shit eaters play these games.

>>715860576
Is that map supposed to be good? Looks pretty similar to >>715858591, both convolited nonsense, but yours has what I assume is a river going through it. What an evolution. It's funny you comllain about japanese game design when they're almost singlehandedly keeping dungeon crawlers alive. What was the last successful western crawler?
And all those maps you've posted, how do they actually look ingame? Because you're comlaring them to a DS game that had to render a full 3D first person dungeon.

>>715858742
Just play better DRPGs.

>>715858393 (OP)
It looks hellish, but once you are in there, you will be able to tell that it isn't as bad as it looks.

Why are you guys even arguing this hard with someone that clearly got filtered because he's shit at DRPGs and can't accept it

>>715859738
It provides a sense of challenge, you're really braving into unknown territory-a dungeon, an otherworldly dimension, etc. And the challenges to accompany it. The dimension is dangerous and actively rejects you, your sonar detects it and maps the areas.
There's a narrative reason but more importantly the matter of gameplay. SJ is pure undistilled gameplay and that's why it's good. You may not like it but SJ is what peak gameplay looks like. The narrative is thus of secondary importance. You mastered the first three maps thinking you're good and come to Eridanus-suddenly part of the map is invisible, it adds complication. You brave into the invisible-there are teleporters setting you back at that. Poison but also ways to counter poison iirc. Tiles serve functional purpose also facilitating a culmination of the ultimate gameplay trumps all experience.

>>715860940
How have you not played Grimrock 2? Stop what you're doing and play that right now, its Doctor Moreau's island turned into a massive dungeon crawler.
>What was the last successful western crawler?
Grimrock 2, in fact it was so good that no one can top it and the whole genre died.
>And all those maps you've posted, how do they actually look ingame?
Honestly amazing.

Imagine making this shitty general on multiple boards for years and not playing the undefeated cream of the crop.
https://youtu.be/HyC4mKmmTOM
It does not get better than this, this might unironically never be topped and is the absolute pinnacle of the genre.

>>715860964
might and magic is not a "DRPG", only a handful of schizos use that term

>>715860352
>they shouldn't be something cooked up in 20 minutes
So exactly what I said. No arguments, just "much realism" and "anime bad" nonsense. It doesn't matter to you if it makes sense in the game's lore or the adventure storyline it is presenting the player, only that it is vaguely kind of realistic by your specific standards.
Now you'll also call this one bad too simply because it's a Jap dungeon crawler that doesn't fit your narrative.

>>715860964
Wow more 3x3 blocks.

Here's your boomer shooter bro

>>715861408
>So exactly what I said. No arguments, just "much realism" and "anime bad" nonsense
Saying I said something different from what I posted over and over desperately is not an argument. You style yourself as some arbiter of dungeon crawlers despite only playing handheld shovelware.

>>715861471
>>715860352
Intermediate on the whiteboard test. Here's expert.

Not even a drpg

>>715861276
Ah, I actually have played Grimrock 2. I liked the first one better, the game being a tower made it feel more opressive, instead of going for the open world meme. I will admit it was super pretty, but then you're comparing a pc game to a ds game. A DS game would never be able to have that scope.
Also, LoG2 had plenty of nonsense dungeons in it, as you can see on that very map, you just needed to go through a hub in the wilderness to get to them. Again, that open world trope that was gaining popularity at the time and persists to this day.
And fuck the swarms of bugs.

>>715861447
It's insane that they can't see this.

>>715861579
>Ah, I actually have played Grimrock 2
No you haven't and you wouldn't have said that blatantly untrue bullshit if you did.

>>715861556
I didn't find this one that bad honestly. Looks more confusing on paper than it really is.
I haven't played SJ yet so can't comment on that.

>>715859738
If you're going to dismiss what Strange Journey is by appealing to realism may I point to you that the creatures and places in Wizardry don't actually exist either? Or will you arbitrarilly say they make sense in the setting? Persona 2 maps are way more grounded.

>>715861579
>And fuck the swarms of bugs.
Because grimrock is a good game you collect unique items to make quick work of unique enemy types, just like how we'd grab a fire sword in demon's souls to exploit the crack addict skeletons weakness. It's not a game that's purely direct upgrades, it's non-linear progression and resource management.

>>715861498
You have not explained why they're bad at all beyond them not being realistic environments enough for you and you have not explained why they don't also create a "mentally stimulating and immersive adventure" as you put it, you've just asserted your claim again and again. And yet again, you haven't posted any arguments.

>>715861641
The fuck did I say that was not true? LoG2 is just a series of tiny dungeons spread across the overworld. You can theorically do them in oit of order to a degree because of the open world mem, but really you always get the four gemstones, then enter the last temple.

>>715861758
>realism
That's 5 times now you've brought up this strawman. You gotta take meds.

>>715861804
>LoG2 is just a series of tiny dungeons spread across the overworld
No it isn't lol. Holy hell, the retard spamming these threads and talking to himself for years is this dumb?

>>715861837
realism

>>715861795
>You have not explained why they're bad at all
I have given very specific examples, like overusage of blocky 3x3 rooms and posted specific counter examples.

>>715859738
>it's supposed to be an rpg
And Strange Journey makes you roleplay being lost in hell, the ludokino is palpable.

>>715861993
Don't resort to samefagging man

I just don't get the appeal of puzzles like this

>>715862056
Oh, that's why it reminds me of Black Space, and makes my eyes hurt.
Is it more tolerable ingame?

>>715861804
>LoG2 is just a series of tiny dungeons spread across the overworld.
Actually, it has a bunch of dungeons that are connected together like a massive underworld a la xeen, (or more recently elden ring) plus huge zelda style dungeons, plus the overworld itself which is massive.

>>715862020
Kek, cope harder nigger.

>>715861936
I don't think you understand how arguments and debates work, anon. You can't just post the issue, you have to explain why it is an issue and why it applies to the examples you're criticising.

And stop schizoing about people using a common term like realism. Your literal first post is complaining about how the "handheld shovelware" titles don't resemble livable structures, your critique being that they instead look like they're just haphazardly drawn maps that don't take into account how they'd function and be connected in reality so they feel empty. All your examples were extensions of that.

>>715860352
This, by comparison, is lame. The chart by an architecture wannabe bragging that a dungeon "tells a story". It's hard to not simply shake my head as it brags that Metaphor Fantazio's map is full of "cultural differentiation". Its only "expertise" is in conveying post-modern thought that games should tell movies and "game games" must be deprecated, while pretending that this opinion is somehow authoritative applying to different genres (shooters) and companies with different design philosophies.

>>715862253
Why make threads everyday if you never intended on discussing the genre? Is it just to astroturf what you like? This is why 4chan feels so shitty and botlike nowadays, because its full of BAD posters like you. So many shitty repetitive RPG threads that get made with the same template on a cycle.

>>715862270
>I don't think you understand how arguments and debates work, anon
No he's genuinely correct and your posts read like an ESL schizo meltdown.

>>715862324
If you're so convinced you're talking to bots why come to this thread?

>>715861875
Yes, it is. You're deluding yourself if you think that's not what it is. Who the fuck is even spamming in this thread if not you? The OP is about SJ, you come into the thread to fedora tip for the superiority of your old western games, then continue to complain about how a handheld game lacks in complexity compared to a full blown PC game. Even in this goddamn image>>715860352 you posted, the games you're so franctically defending would barely fit on the second group of maps, which the very image calls amateurish; yet that makes sense because the very genre works on a fucking grid.
I'd love to see how this >>715861471 Marathon map would even fucking work as a first person dungeon crawler on a grid. And it's not even impossible, that ps2 wizardry game I can't recall the name of had curved hallways. It just looked super jank when you walked through them, like a tiny kn rails section of a kn-rails shooter. It can be done, but LoG2 sure as hell doesn't.
And for the record, I'm not attacking LoG2's design. I'm saying you're smoking something if you really thing it's so different to any other game on the genre. You won't even admit the game just has four zones you can tackle with relative freedom of order, just like dungeons in a zelda game. You even go through a mandatory sewer dungeon, fuck.
And you do all this while avartarfagging like a goddamn tranny. What is wrong with you?

>>715862324
What you don't like the endless
>RPG is like THIS
>What was RPG THINKING?
>Just found a copy of Kingmaker in my grandmother's attic, gunna play it for the first time, what am I in for?
threads?

>>715862402
Because the whole catalogue is just shitty astroturfing now. There's a whole containment board for this. Go to >>>/vrpg/ and do not come back. I can look at the "DRPG" general and it's the same exact unhinged and retarded takes made from spending years in an insular echo chamber.

>>715862404
>that ps2 wizardry game I can't recall the name of had curved hallways. It just looked super jank when you walked through them, like a tiny kn rails section of a kn-rails shooter.
beats convoluted spaghetti dungeons

>>715862404
>The OP is about SJ
The OP is retarded reddit clickbait that's been posted a billion times.

>>715862539
In that case why open the thread at all?

>>715862608
Why make the thread? Stop posting.

>>715862608
>i did something annoying for 10 years straight, why are people calling me a retard now

>>715858591
Should I play the OG or the remake thar comes with 2? I heard the remake reduced the size of the dungeons. I've already beaten MS2 so there's that extra ending too...

>>715862687
>Just found a copy of Kingmaker in my grandmother's attic, gunna play it for the first time, what am I in for?

>>715862498
Kek, make me. You know what, I'm going to make a social media account just to post a screenshot of OP and bring a deluge of bots for you to talk to.

>>715862630
>>715862675
Take your own advice, retard.
>>715862687
Honestly, probably the remake. I've only llaued the original, but the massives maps are a drag because the game itself is easy as piss. It starts feeling like a huge waste of time. Then again, I've always been the kind of person that needs to paint the whole map. If you don't mind leaving rooms unexplored, it'd probably be a lot faster.

>>715858393 (OP)
Why do you make the same shitty threads every single day?

>>715862404
This reads like severe asshurt.

>>715862687
I don't like the remake dungeons because they over-corrected way too much to the point that they're nothing really now, but the combat changes in the Remake are too important to play the original. If you've already beaten Mary Skelter 2, then you should just aim for the remake True Ending that leads to Finale.

>>715858393 (OP)
The boss after this assfuck of a dungeon is a piece of shit too
worth it to listen to a 82kbps version of fear of god though.
SJ rocked. To this day it's the aesthetic peak of SMT.

>>715862404
Why are you bringing up marathon like that's not a terrible game? You're not a bungie tard, are you?

>>715858742
Op has a coherent structure tho

>>715862962
Wow 8 3x3 rooms

>>715863250
>only two 3x3 squares
Look at this excellent map that could conceivably be real world floor plans.

>>715858393 (OP)
SJ could have used some Zeuhl

>>715863762
Sure looks like something worth devoting your entire life to

>>715858393 (OP)
Aren't you the guy that throws a tantrum whenever someone brings up labyrinth of 2hu?

>>715861804
>tiny dungeons spread across the overworld
All the dungeons are roped together and you can break into the middle of a dungeon like the kool aid man busting through a wall. It's like this huge thing. Did you get filtered right at the start or something?

>>715863762
why should the inside of an eldrich horror abomination look like a real floor plan?

>>715863978
Because Slopyrinth of Doodoo is not a DRPG and does not belong in these DRPG discussion threads.

>>715864242
Because it looks retarded and its not fun to navigate?

>>715864242
Because realistic architecture like this is obviously a lot better level design because you can conceivably believe that a bad architect could make this floor plan if he was suffering a concussion.

>>715865093
Why does this 44 year old game look better than a modern japanese dungeon crawler?

>>715865093
>level design
buzzword
good design = thing I like
bad design = thing I don't like
every single time

>>715865889
You gotta take your risperadone before you hurt yourself. Other japanese games can into level design, why is this weird niche kusoge category so uniquely shitty?

>>715861276
>not playing the undefeated cream of the crop
Alright anon. Because you speak so highly of it, and because I had it on my wishlist apparently, I got it.

>>715866159
You're in for a once in a lifetime adventure.
https://youtu.be/dQfjxWiNCTc

>>715858393 (OP)
>Eridanus
I don't know why people focus on this stratum so much. It's not even the worst one in the game.

>>715861556
It wasn't so bad. You just go in one direction until you hit a dead end, then try a different route.

>>715866793
Its sadly probably one person posting it over and over, and they probably weren't even the original person to post it. They're just emulating what grabbed attention in the past.

>open world outside, bad
>open world but inside with corridors, good

>>715866129
>design
You keep repeating that word like you're pretending to be an youtuber and thinking we're supposed to kneel and take your word for granted because you said it.
>That is good design. This is bad design. Why? I said it. That's why it's true.
You mention jp out of nowhere, don't even address that poster's question, I'm starting to suspect bad faith, I'm bored. well if you want jp-game floor plans that badly just go to the malls in smt1 or soul hackers.

>>715867194
You were given a literal infograph on how level design works. Take meds.

>>715867194
lol he thinks you're me

Discussing DRPGs on /v/ where trannies spend their lives shitting up all discussion is a waste of effort
Play Makai Agito if you are up for a janky Persona clone

>>715867576
>a janky Persona clone
what kind of subhuman would want any of that

And here comes the aforementioned tranny

Isn't it a little hypocritical to post about persona then cry about trannies

>>715858393 (OP)
Y'all niggas need to play some etriams.

>>715867096
yes, dark souls 2 is good

>>715862056
Imagine if Jack Bros got like this, bros.

>>715862056
This was intentionally made random and confusing though.

this all looks pretty standard for a seasoned Grimrock enjoyer

>>715858742
stop being an actual trasngender, onimai avatar newnigger

>>715867576
>janky Persona clone
Persona is already garbage, why would anyone want a janky clone of garbage?

>>715858742
>>715859738
>>715866297
mahiro sexo

>>715858393 (OP)

>>715867576
>Discussing DRPGs on /v/ where trannies spend their lives shitting up all discussion is a waste of effort
this and shmups
retro genres really triggered some schizo's autism here lmao

>>715871394
>retro genres
How is it possible to be this retarded

>>715862114
It's navigable without using a map. The teleport maze is much more annoying.

Longest dungeon I've played through was probably in Ys 2

>>715862498
>calling /vrpg/ a containment board for shitty astroturfing
>on /v/

>>715858742
based dungeon design enjoyer

>>715858491
this
even as a kid you could just brute force it without going autism mode with pen and paper

>>715872407
He's definitely right, like a quarter of /v/'s most shitty threads are spill over from 2 or 3 /vrpg/ schizos that post the same thing every single day.

>>715873586
95% of /v/ shitty threads fall into one of these categories: Coomer/gacha/weebshit, social identity politics, e-celeb and ragebait using FotM games. Stop typing, brown faggot. The schizos you're mentioning will at most take a fat dump on existing rpg games' threads, but outside of that they don't shit up on /v/.

>>715873586
Did you get bullied on /vrpg/ this hard? You're obviously making shit up.

>>715858393 (OP)
SMT has a tendency to not be as bad as it looks when you play it

>>715858393 (OP)
>>715863762
kino stepmaxing spaghetti

>>715860964
souless corridor corporate slop, designed by 4 indians and connected by cimenatic loading passageways so it can be outsourced and developed 4 times as fast

I rarely visit DRPG threads on /v/, what the hell does "stepmaxing" means?

Personally, I think the IV dungeons are fine.