Thread 716008621

What exactly, if anything, destroyed the perception of the 3D Zelda formula so much that Nintendo was forced to pivot to BotW? Was it any specific video perhaps? Or just fan sentiment?

Nothing. Nintendo bandwagoned onto the open world formula due to FOMO.

>>716008621 (OP)
skyward sword was bad

>>716008621 (OP)
Nintendo saw that open world and ubisoft towers were popular, so they wanted to do it too.

TP being disappointing and followed up by SS will do the trick.

>>716008621 (OP)
japanese zoomers enter gamedev and collectively convinced nintendo to submit to western game design trends on the basis that it'd be highly popular with their domestic fanbase

Twilight Princess released the same year as Oblivion.
Skyward Sword released the same month as Skyrim.
Both of Todd’s games ended up surpassing the legacy the Zelda games established.

>>716008621 (OP)
Bunch of retards saying they hate linearity and keep spouting about wanting open world games that are soulless, and Zelda was the closest thing they had. Should've done it with Kid Icarus or Star-Fox instead of ruining an established franchise desu.

>>716008621 (OP)
Wind Waker looking fucking gay turned many people against Zelda and made Aonuma eternally butthurt and spiteful about OoT

it was shitting everything up with Windwanker and TP Shitcess in the GayCube era. fuck Iwata for ruining so many classic IPs.

>>716008943
So spiteful they remade it again for Twilight Princess

You just made a thread about this you faggot.

>>716009009
aonuma was basically forced to, you know it's bad when miyamoto is on record for physically cringing when he saw wind wakers art style

>>716008621 (OP)
>Was it any specific video perhaps?
Go fucking kill yourself you goddamn obsessed autist. You know perfectly fucking well that video had no fucking impact on how Nintendo developed Zelda.

>>716008870
Twilight Princess is far from perfect, but it's far better than Oblivion and way better than Skyrim. Howard is a hack.

>>716009043
Yes I did and it was deleted for being "not Vidya" which is retarded as fuck considering all the fake /pol/ threads up rn
So I made a "Vidya" one. Got a problem? Go somewhere else and let me talk about Zelda you faggot

>>716008728
This is the actual answer. It's not some great mystery, guys. Skyward Sword was the most linear game in the franchise with almost no sense of exploration and people didn't like that, and it couldn't coast through on its presentation because the controls were also crap. You just know they had endless meetings about how to course correct and landed on "the first Legend of Zelda was very open, let's go back to that".

>>716008621 (OP)
I personally think Wind Waker's reception mind-broke them and just chose to be experimental with 3D mainline entries ever since.
I can't believe there has only been four mainline 3D games in over 20 years.

>>716008621 (OP)
It was just Aonuma fucking up the Zelda formula so bad for three entire mainline games that it gaslit everyone to believing the formula was "stale" when he couldn't get it right to begin with. Bring Koizumi back and things will heal.

>>716009337
>Post about video game
>Get console war shit
>Post about eceleb criticising video game
>Get in depth discussion about the game's mechanics
>THAT thread gets deleted for being off-topic
Many such cases

>>716008621 (OP)
SS proved the formula was stale and even before it released Nintendo said it would be the last game to follow it. Even if BotW had been something different, you'd just be angry about that instead.
But none of that really matters, because what you really want is for a Zelda game to make you feel like OoT did when you were 10 years old, but that's never going to happen again because you're 35 now.

Remember TotK didn't win any awards at the TGA and then Aonuma came out and said this about traditional Zelda
https://www.ign.com/articles/zelda-tears-of-the-kingdom-interview-nintendo-eiji-aonuma-hidemaro-fujibayashi

>IGN: It's interesting to hear you say that because one of the discussions that I've seen among Zelda fans is, "Gosh, I miss the more traditional linear Zelda of the past." And I'm wondering, how do you feel about that given the direction of the series toward a very free-form, open-ended kind of design?
>Aonuma: Well, I do think we as people have a tendency to want the thing that we don't currently have, and there's a bit of a grass is greener mentality. But I also think that with the freedom players have in the more recent games in the series...there still is a set path, it just happens to be the path that they chose. So I think that that is one thing I kind of like to remind myself about the current games that we're making. But also, it's interesting when I hear people say those things because I am wondering, "Why do you want to go back to a type of game where you're more limited or more restricted in the types of things or ways you can play?" But I do understand that desire that we have for nostalgia, and so I can also understand it from that aspect.
That really mindbroke something in him

>>716009337
No, because you're so fucking retarded you think a "game review" video from a fucking e-celebrity was apparently powerful enough to get Nintendo of all fucking companies to completely change their design practices for one of their biggest series. You are a fucking autistic idiot who has no fucking business being here, because you lack the mental capacity to understand that Arin fucking Hanson does not and never has had any sort of influence on Nintendo. Fuck off and die.

>>716009904
I dunno why you're talking about e celeb stuff in this Zelda video game topic.

>>716008621 (OP)
reviewers kept complaining about the linear structure for skyward sword

>>716008728
skyward is good, just needed a proper overworld

>>716009780
But I'm 30

>>716008621 (OP)
aonuma was a retard and couldnt properly follow in koizumi's footsteps. now we are all suffering for it.

>>716009614
Yeah but what made him think the formula was stale? Was it a specific review, or a specific video on the subject?

>>716010613
Probably fan reception and reviews

>>716008621 (OP)
Souls series mogged it too hard

>>716008621 (OP)
I think it was more likely, as other anons have pointed out, pressure from Oblivion and Skyrim becoming more popular in the 3D fantasy game arena, and on top of this Dark Souls becoming popular - creating pressure for Zelda to distinguish itself, than any one video like Sequelitis which came out only months before BotW released

>>716008621 (OP)
Skyward Sword sucked ass and was so railroaded that tendies were frothing at the mouth imagining how amazing an open world Zelda game would be. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

>>716010721
>spoiler
No Breath of the Wild came out in 2017, and that video came out in 2014, which was early in BotWs development, early enough that they could change a lot about it

>>716008621 (OP)
They casualized the franchise with LTTP.
They revolutionized it with OoT.
They stretched it with MM.
They milked it with WW & TP & SS.

They reached the point of over saturation due to Ocarina of Time clones over and over.

>>716011125
Oh, you're right about the Zelda Sequelitis being from 2014

But I still think you're an idiot.
This was the teaser for BOTW from 2014
https://youtu.be/Z6BeAtdoELY?feature=shared

>>716011597
>They casualized the franchise with LTTP.
True
>They revolutionized it with OoT.
No, they further casualized it.

>>716008621 (OP)
because it was the same shit since 1996 and we were tired of this crap

>>716009830
and then he gave us EoW, the worst of both worlds
>YOU DONT RIKE OPEN ENDED?
>YOU WANT OLD ZERDA?
>STUPID GAIJIN!
>ROOK! ROOK AT THIS GAME!
>I MADE A RINEAR ZERDA AND MADE IT BAD!

>>716008621 (OP)
Probably isn't really any more complicated than just a fair few sequels in Nintendo trying out new ideas that clearly didn't work out as well, that they tried to rehaul the entire thing. And there's what, roughly two decades between OoT and BotW?

>>716011905
I heard EoW had good dungeons finally but the TotK item management shit turned me off hard from playing

>>716012030
worse, its not even item management.
they literally just give you a spawn menu.

>>716011948
/v/ has a really hard time conceptualizing straightforward ideas. Ocarina of Time introduced stuff like lighting arrows on fire, moving fire around to burn stuff, Breath of the Wild lets the fire be something you can utilize in more ways, straightforward advancements.

>>716011948
Problem is though
1998-2006 gave us OoT, MM, WW, and TP
2017-2025 gave us BotW....and BotW 1.5
I don't want to wait 6 more years for BotW 1.8HD

>>716012120
welcome to the modern time, cavenigger

People forget
or maybe OOT babs simply don't know or reckon with this fact
But NES Zelda was a lot more open ended than ALTTP and OOT.
And by the time you got to Skyward Sword it really was basically a linear experience.
BOTW really was an effort to return to early Zelda's freedom, in addition to whatever other factors may have played into its development.

>>716011786
Nothing about that video suggests that its open world though, its possible it was going to be a normal Zelda game until they watched the Sequelitis video. I think everyone is being overly dismissive of its impact on the Zelda series.

The real problem is that Nintendo was too obsessed with making their 3D Zeldas have really long and slow and boring starts. WW, TP, SS, these games take HOURS to get really going, and before you can really get fun gameplay you have to sit through lots and lots of boring stuff and mundane tasks. If they had started immediately with fun dungeons I think people wouldn't complain so much about the formula being stale.

>>716008621 (OP)
You need to remember that Skyward Sword was a 2011 game, and YouTube video essays weren't exactly a thing driving public discourse at the time.

The general sentiment was that Skyward Sword was too linear and hand-holdy, and too much of a course correction after Twilight Princess itself being a hard course correction after the response to Wind Waker.
>Not enough Ocarina of Time
>Too much Ocarina of Time

In isolation, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword are all great games though, much in the way that Metroid Fusion is a great game when you divorce it from Super Metroid.

>>716008621 (OP)
No recovering from Wind Waker.

>>716012184
So in the past Devs could shoot out 4 unique beautiful games yet now in the same time they can't even shoot out a measley two? Even when the second one was meant to be dlc?
Awful

>>716010186
Fuck off you pile of nigger shit. You admit to making a fucking eceleb thread, it gets nuked so you just remake it but change the image to hide the eceleb connection. I wish morons like you were permabanned, you are nothing but a pimple on the ass of this site.

>>716008621 (OP)
Breath of the wild ruined my life. I was on the verge of getting a job, entry level but still a job in early 2017. I was also working on getting my weight back down to my high school lows of 30 stone.

I now weigh over 82 stone and have not even considered applying a job for a job in more than five years.

>>716012502
you sound like a retarded manchild
or you're under 18 and shouldn't be there.

>>716012120
Game development takes a lot longer than it used to for everybody, Nintendo included. Even Game Freak has seemingly realized that three-year gen vidya cycles for Pokémon isn't as viable.

>>716012569
Ok

>>716012237
>Nothing about that video suggests that its open world though
Except the entire first 15 seconds of the 45 second video, where it shows a huge shot of a 3D open world to explore.

Also, if the argument is "Sequelitis made Nintendo change Breath of the Wild from the OOT formula", the trailer disproves this, because it shows the game well into development - to the point where it looks almost identical to the final game in terms of its art and assets.
In 2014.

On top of this, any arguments about "Sequelitis changing the Zelda formula" ignore A Link Between Worlds, which was essentially a prototype for BOTW, came out in 2013, and was in development for a few years before that.

As I was trying to say last thread, "the formula" wasn't the damn problem. The formula doesn't mandate linear progression, in fact linearity harms how well the item gating can shine. The formula isn't responsible for the overworld getting more and more barren, MM had four big areas that were decidedly not dungeons nor linear, each with plenty of shit to do. The formula didn't swoop in and say "triple the length of the tutorial" during Twilight Princess's development. All the big flaws people foist on the formula are individual developer fuckups. Usually fuckups that come from them failing to understand the design of previous Zelda, but failing to make the formula in the first place isn't a failure of the formula.

>>716012379
This. People wont admit it though. Wind Waker was so bad that it basically killed the franchise.

>>716012248
They really seemed to figure that out with BotW and TotK.
The starts aren't slow, they let you get straight into the action with limited tools, and introduce you to the core tools you'll be using for most of the adventure.

That becomes a problem though, once you get off the Great Plateau or Great Sky Island, there is considerably little to add to Link's abilities.
A few upgrades for his Sheikah Slate / Purah Pad, the Master Cycle Zero add the end of a long ass DLC, the Autobuild which is just a convenience, and a variety of Zonai devices over time.
Oh and of course the Champion abilities or Sages respectively, but they largely just add convenience rather than new possibilities.
>Revali? Climb faster
>Mipha? Die less
>Daruk? Die less
>Urbosa? Kill faster
>Tulin? Better airtime (without builds etc)
>Sidon? Weather the heat
>Yunobo? Conserve bombs / hammers
>Riju? Uhhh
>Mineru? Walk safely, easy bullet-time

>>716012714
>"the formula" wasn't the damn problem.
yes it was

>>716013016
Explain how.

>>716013159
No.

>>716012714
>The formula doesn't mandate linear progression, in fact linearity harms how well the item gating can shine.
Anon, item gating *is* the formula, and it mandates linear progression.
This formula isn't necessarily a problem, I don't agree with the idea that linearity and formula are the problem, but that *is* the ALTTP formula.
They broke this formula with ALBW, and it's probably, objectively speaking, the best Zelda game - at least when it comes to gameplay (if not art direction/story/vibe etc.)

>>716012503
Talking about Zelda on the video game board should get me banned? Ok, whatever you say, asshole.

>>716012714
>MM had four big areas that were decidedly not dungeons nor linear
why you lie

>>716012663
He talks about Link Between Worlds in the video though. I just think its suspicious that all the things Arin complained about in the Sequelitis video were suddenly fixed with Breath of the Wild, which was early in development when the video was posted and got popular. Its not too much of a stretch to think that the video is why BotW is open world.

>>716009337
Lol get rekt fuckin bitch. criticizing the greatest game of all time should be a bannable offense on /v/ anyways.

>>716013634
NTA it's not the video itself, it's majority fan sentiment was reflected in the video

>>716012503
Talking about Zelda should get me banned? You should take your meds

Eric bitched about Zelda so they turned it into ubislop

>>716013517
Purely because of the Switch. Not because of the actual quality of the games
>P-P-PROVE IT THEN
Just look at the Wii-U sales of BotW
Also, Echoes of Wisdom only sold 2.5mill

>>716013684
>This will be redone this summer due to botting

>>716013274
>Anon, item gating *is* the formula, and it mandates linear progression.
Just offer multiple options at any one time. OOT does it, you get to the adult era and you only need the hookshot to tackle the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, or Water Temple. Each of those dungeons contains an item. Simply expand that, make the first dungeon you choose to do alter what the next dungeon you can possibly unlock is. Isn't this why people like randomizers? Because they emphasize knowledge of what progression points are checked where?

>>716013634
>He talks about Link Between Worlds in the video though.
Yea
Because it came out a year before his video
And what he says about it is basically "maybe this is a sign Nintendo is going in a different direction with Zelda"
Which is something Nintendo had already been talking about before his video

>Its not too much of a stretch to think that the video is why BotW is open world.
No, it is.

>>716013906
sure, and randomizers push the game toward being open ended - ala Breath of the Wild.

>>716013906
>you only need the hookshot to tackle the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, or Water Temple
...

>>716014039
Not ala Breath of the Wild in the slightest, Breath of the Wild is "open ended" by giving you the keys to most of the game in the tutorial. Randomizers alter where the keys are, they make the order more open ended, they don't remove the order entirely.

>>716013857
Echoes of Wisdom selling as badly as it did is some of the most damning proof that TotK purely sold off the goodwill of BotW and didn't stick well with people like BotW did. Also hopefully Nintendo doesn't entertain "muh playable Zelda" again for a long time to the dismay of male feminists everywhere

>>716014079
Okay, let me be completely clear then: The hookshot is the latest-unlocked item requited to tackle the quest chain leading up to each of them, get inside, and clear the dungeon, while getting further items as appropriate.

>>716008621 (OP)
>Ubislop sell good
>let's make ubisoft without any right
>...
>Gamefreakslop sell good
>let's make gamefreakslop without any right
>Nintendo show up with 56 patent writed after the game success and they can rewrite any part on a whim if needed

>>716014153
>"open ended"
add as many quotations as you want, the reality is people randomize and replay Ocarina of Time to the point they clearly are chasing after full non-linearity play; and that game exists already waiting in the wings.

>>716014231
Something very damming about TotK's sales is that in September 2023 Nintendo revealed it sold 20 million units. 20 mill in 4 months, yeah that's pretty good right?
They updated the sales figures a year later. It barely sold 500k. The game that sells 20 mill in 4 months can't even sustain a fucking million after 12!??????
That's actually horrendous and shows yeah, people only bought in to the hype of another BotW, and very very quickly lost interest in it to move on. BotW had legs. TotK couldn't even stand up.

>>716014392
>the point they clearly are chasing after full non-linearity play
>the point you chase after by changing the order things unlock in a "process of unlocking things" game is never having to unlock things again
No.

like, if you took Wind Waker and randomized it, due to the game world design you essentially have that open world Zelda game with formulaic dungeons, even more so than Ocarina of Time

>>716009409
this is the correct answer

I just want Link to be an attractive twink again. Not whatever disgusting abomination NuLink is. Even the Funko pop toy Link is ugly as sin.

>>716014439
You're a rat in a maze my friend

>>716010429
>just needed a proper overworld
And pacing
And gameplay
And story(fuck Demise shit, other characters can stay)

>>716014392
OoT Randomizer is open-ended that still has a key structure. BotW is open-ended with extremely little structure, favoring a sandbox design.
>>716009409
It just floors me that they saw how insanely well (at the time) Twilight Princess sold, but then said "no don't make a sequel to this, just make a spinoff gun for our shitty gun peripheral instead", and then later "no don't make the next 3D game anything like it either".

>>716014549
The point of items in Zelda is that you don't fucking start with them. You see a boulder, you don't have the thing to move it or blow it up or smash it, you later come back with an item to do one of those things. Making sure you have the main interactive tools the game will check before you run across most of the situations that ask for them defeats the purpose.

>>716014612
Cracks me up how SS defenders for years said "If it had normal controls you'd realize how amazing it is!!!"
and then they ported it to switch and no, people still hate it

>>716008621 (OP)
they were following the game design, pretty strictly too, of a 20 year old game (older if you count ALTTP/LA)
If they actually took the time to update the design to something more than Town>Filler world>Dungeon>repeat it could have continued using a more refined version of the original desgin. They just NEVER fucking even attempted to make the exploration aspect anything more involved than Ocarina

>>716008621 (OP)
Because it just flat out sucks. It was tolerated when 3D arrived because Nintendo could force themselves into being a tastemaker. People didn't have some hypothetical alternative to OoT's shitty crate pushing, torch lighting, and switch pulling to find the key dungeon design. Eventually when the amount of alternative gameplay styles emerged people naturally got tired of it because it's just not fun. No amount of Nintendo astroturfing taste and buying reviews in 1998 can compete with people learning from experience the formula sucks. OoT's popularity was the biggest fucking scam in game industry and everyone just went along with it because they had no idea what a 3d action adventure game could look like at a first party design level.

>>716008621 (OP)
>Nintendo hires marketing strategy guys who aren't literally, clinically retarded
>They noticed that open world games are currently the highest selling AAA games.
>They recommend following the trend

>>716013857
I say this all the time, if BotW was an OoT clone it would probably have sold just as well by virtue alone of being the only title available at launch and a good one at that plus getting the launch year boost, it'd most likely have done odyssey numbers if I'm being conservative

>>716014930
And yet MM and WW and TP are all extremely popular
Kinda redacts your entire contrarian arguement no?

>>716008621 (OP)
>What exactly, if anything, destroyed the perception of the 3D Zelda formula so much that Nintendo was forced to pivot to BotW?

>>716014983
Majora's Mask sold like shit. You're falling for the narrative that Nintendo tried to establish when they wanted to strong arm this as the only model of 3d action adventure. Every game after the design pivot has outsold the OoT model.

>Miyamoto works on OoT
>Satisfied, passes it off to Koizumi who makes MM
>Satisfied, passes it off to Aonuma who has no fucking clue what to do so he goes back to OoT with WW
>Confused again, doesn't pass it off and does TP
>Confused again, doesn't pass it off and does SS
>Confused again,
You see the pattern? It's not the formula, it's the person. If someone else handled WW or TP the games would still be amazing to this day
Instead we have one guy who's mad that people love the games he didn't do much shit on

>>716008621 (OP)
Two things primarily, insanely long development times and Wii waggle controls. The Wii stuff took over technically with Twilight Princess, but not really (it was a late Gamecube release rushed in as Wii launch title). Then there was a long development wait until Skyward Sword came out, and that logically was developed expressly for the waggle controls. Gamers had already decided to hate Wii wagglan, so that flopped, then the geniuses at Nintendo stupidly assumed that was due to a general dissatisfaction with 3d Zelda. It was complete idiocy. They checked all the boxes to make the game a flop prior to developing it, then go through the years making it, then backtrack on things which had nothing to do with it flopping.

>>716015240
I'm not talking about sales. Majora's Mask is beloved, and plays fantastically.

>>716015240
>Sold like shit
It sold 3.6 million in 2000
>AHAHAHA THATS ONLY HALF OF OoT SO THEREFORE IT SOMEHOW WAS A FLOP IN MY EYES
ok

>>716015265
One guy who gave up playing Zelda 1 because octoroks kept killing him.

Speaking of Majora's Mask
>Aonuma didn't want to do a remake because "he had no idea why people even loved that game"
>When he did remake it he ruined every single boss with this eyeball shit
>And ruined the Zora swimming because it gave too much skill expression to players and that's a big no no with him
>And the bomber's notebook now stops you and forces you to look at its notifications every single time

>>716015265
It all goes back to the ungodly ego Aonuma had when the Zelda series was wholly thrust onto him. He bet BIG on Wind Waker being an enormous breakout hit (hence why a ton of Zelda games in the 2000s were given the toon artstyle), but it coming out to middling sales and a divisive fan reputation mindbroke him.
>>716015486
Before his insanely arrogant comments about the pre-BotW games in the wake of TotK losing GotY, the way he handled MM3D was probably the thing that pissed me off the most about him. Most of the mechanical changes weren't well-meaning or respectful, they were spiteful. also I would think MM3D would dispel the narrative people forward that MM64 was almost entirely his handiwork, yes people actually think that

>>716015486
Miyamoto hates everything that doesn't fit into his standardized thought process. He wants everything to be samey.

>>716008621 (OP)
Aonuma poisoned the series with his retardation and then Fujibayashi got promoted to director and celebrated by murdering the Zelda franchise with Skyward Sword.
But Nintendo fans can't handle that, so it was ACKshully the games choosing to be bad and it's all the OOT (actually LTTP but the modern Zelda fan doesn't know what that is) formula's fault, not the game devs' even though they're the ones making the games. They tried really hard, okay?! BE GRATEFUL

>>716015486
This is why I stick with the originals, especially with Majora's Mask. One of the things I loved about the bosses that save for Twinmold, you had plenty of options to use to fight each one, risks be damned. I'll keep on saying this, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess needed sequel games made in the same dev cycle as Majora. I love PH and ST, but they would have thrived on a console. Majora and Ocarina are vastly different and that type of stress is needed to keep the Zelda devs on their toes. Crunch forced them to stick to a concept and see it through.
>"he had no idea why people even loved that game"
It wasn't Ocarina 2, that's why. Aonuma and Fujibayashi really missed the point of why this series was beloved. Wind Waker had its visual style at the very least. But Twilight Princess was trying to chase Ocarina's highs too much.

>>716011905
EoW was a loaded monkey's paw. He knew what he was doing. The moment I saw the LA remake's visuals I was calling shenanigans.

>>716016448
What's crazy is they wanted to do sequels for them
WW2 was going to be the next game until "whoops Americans didn't like WW because...must be the Artstyle!" so that gets scrapped for TP
And then TP2 got cancelled for whatever reason and we got Link's Crossbow Training...
Hell even SS would've benefited from an early Wii-U sequel that maybe fixed a lot of the design in that game.

>>716016696
>TP2 got cancelled for whatever reason
Miyamoto asked for another TP, got confused when the Zelda team started making a sequel, and then decided he wanted to sell the Wii Zapper instead.

>>716016907
T-Thanks Miyamoto...

>>716016696
I remember the rumors before Twilight Princess was revealed that Wind Waker 2 was going to have the night curse that Ganondorf cast on the sea, but this time the rain was gonna gradually flood the world and you had to find out what was causing it. I was still finding stuff in Wind Waker at the time so I was hyped about a sequel. Twilight Princess I waited three years to play and I made the right choice, it was underwhelming. A sequel could have did some cool stuff, abstract stuff like Majora's Mask if not a completely different system. I still want the three-day cycle to come back with a whole weekly cycle, it was really cool and blew my mind that they did it on the N64.

>>716014653
There's structure in BotW, but you get the freedom of full on randomization from the get go

>>716016907
>>716017071
it's not that confusing, Shiggy said "throw together a game reusing what we already have in a short amount of time" and the team went completely the wrong direction making a full on new game. Shiggy stepped in and cobbled together wii zapper training.

>>716008621 (OP)
Zelda got btfo by Dark Souls so hard they were completely mind broken and decided 'we weren't even trying to compete'.
Fromsoft has been making new Zelda since. It's why the Discord trannies spam their hatred for it so much.

>>716016696
it was the artstyle and it was the tedium of sailing, you may not like TP but it was a needed return to form

>>716015486
nearly everything in the 3DS version is improved, and this is a case of you simply not liking the additional phases in boss battles, and Zora swimming having parity with Goron rolling

>>716008621 (OP)
It wasn't so much the formula itself, but how horrifically Nintendo mismanaged this formula over the years.
Excessive infantilization through goofy art style changes, dumbed-down difficulty and story, restrictive linearity through under-developed overworlds and obnoxious companions like Phi, recycling Hyrule over and over to the point of redundancy, gutting or retconning the lore and story with every new entry, the list goes on and on.
The new open-air formula offers a ton of potential as well, but is already being severely mismanaged through recent games like ToTK and EoW.

Where else was there to go? Same formula with diminishing results each time, by SS they needed to do something different. Same thing will happen with their open world Minecraft phase.

>>716018149 (me)
I'm trans and autistic btw :3

>>716018149
>the game being more tedious means it's better

>>716018149
>Nearly everything is improved!
>E-Except that but that doesn't count!!!

>>716008728
This is where Nintendo actually pivoted, and it was basically the inverse of BotW and people didn't receive it well.

>>716018263
painfully ironic, you're just stuck on one thing you dont like when the list of quality of life improvements is a mile long

>>716009830
I think the west's reaction to WW is what really broke him. You can tell it's a soulful game that had its life cut short to reach a release deadline since Nintendo wanted to move on from the public reaction catastrophe as quickly as possible.

was gonna be a contrarian and say "they should have gotten the Oracle people on mainline Zelda" but they did, that nigga literally directed Skyward Sword lmao

>>716009830
How fucking retarded do you have to be to not understand the appeal of your own fucking games?

>>716018325
And yet you can't list it :/ Probably because you're engagement baiting like the brownoid you are

>>716018256
we wont even discuss how you have to play the song of double time repeatedly to get to somewhere in proximity of where you want, and then wait out the rest of the time, that the original does

>>716008621 (OP)
>No... reception to skyward sword couldn't have possibly been lukewarm...
>IT MUST HAVE BEEN A YOUTUBER
What the actual fuck has to happen to someone to make them like this

>>716018389
you asked for it

-the clock now displays the full cycle and even minutes
-the clock now doesn't fade when performing an action
-the clock runs 33% faster making for a slightly more tense game
-3 save file slots instead of just 2
-save files retain time & date of last played
-save points added to the beginning of dungeons
-song of double time allows selecting specific hour
-gyroscopic aiming
-red dot added to aiming
-target retical signals if something is hookshotable
-stereoscopic glassesless 3D
-high detail map displayed on bottom screen
-dungeon fairies and chests shown on the map
-an additional item button
-in addition to ocarina having a permanent button
-in addition to the pictobox having a permanent button
-songs are displayed on bottom screen while playing ocarina
-fishing locations have been added
-an entire suite of fish to catch including a fish boss
-location of important NPCs in more convenient locations
-stuff like only being able to get upgraded wallet on day one fixed
-stone mask is obtained in the location it's most useful now
-analog camera when using New 3DS or Circle Pad Pro
-goron rolling is now a toggle instead of a hold
-spikes added to deku link's spin
-deku link now requires a build up to speed
-the R trigger can be pressed while flying to display where you will land
-zora link's default swim offers far more control for navigating tight corridors
-the boomerangs can be recalled instantly by pressing B again
-can play the instrument underwater now

>>716018424
You get to handwave away shitty Zora swimming and botched Deku spinning/skipping, I get to handwave that away. Fuck you.

>>716008728
2pbp

>>716018389
continued due to text limit

-pulling back on epona will perform a 180 in that direction along with a speed boost
-Link has additional expressions of animation
-bomber notebook is now highly detailed and tracks useful information
-now includes more entries, a schedule, and a new events section, which includes ongoing, rumored, and completed events
-can even set an alarm to a specific time to be reminded of any event
-a new optional hint system has been added to the clocktower
-game runs at 30fps instead of 20fps, the menus run at 60fps
-touchscreen item management means less menu navigation
-fire, ice, and light arrows are their own item and can all be assigned
-boss battles have added phases to the fight
-new animations are added to the giant mask
-new shortcuts to the southern swamp and pirate fortress
-an additional bottle added to the game in a new sidequest
-mask of truth reveals hidden grottos
-cutscenes are shortened after the first time they're watched
-song of soaring cutscene is skippable
-B button makes Link climb faster
-redeads even have additional dance moves

and these are just the ones off the top of my head

>>716018428
Skyward Sword wasn't a traditional 3D Zelda. Everyone hating it should have clued them in to reverting back to the old formula.

>>716018149
Yeah nearly everything is improved
Except for the gameplay, and the art style, and the progression
But uhhh, it has higher poly counts and texture quality, which the game definitely needed because old bad new good

>>716018483
>>716018542
PC version smokes your enshittified slop.

>>716018486
How come you morons dont complain Goron rolling requires magic?

>>716008728
Skyward wasn’t traditional. It was a corridor walking waggle game pretending to be Traditional 3D Zelda.

>>716008621 (OP)
Pic related (and Tezuka too, to some extent) leaving the team to work on Mario Projects. It's now blatantly clear to many long-time fans that he was the man who was ultimately responsible for much of Zelda's innate success as a masterclass IP.

>>716008943
Windwaker being terrible had nothing to do with the graphics strawman. Sailing was a ridiculous waste of time and there were only 3 actual dungeons.

>>716009830
>TotK didn't win any awards at the TGA
>The Gay Awards

Not winning anything on the night Geoff Kieghley gets bukakked every year is not the gotcha statement you think it is.

>>716018564
>Except for the gameplay
improved
>the art style
improved
>the progression
exact same except for the location of stone mask and the first two stray fairy upgrades

>>716013684
who the fuck on this board voted new vegas as the 3rd best of all time?

>>716018657
>improved
Wrong, some minor quality of life features are not worth removing fun parts
>improved
Wrong, and kill yourself
>exact same
They made the notebook mandatory and made it shittier

4chan will continue to be nothing but a ragebait shitting grounds because anger-addicted niggers like the ones in this thread lack self-control and will gladly reply to any and all bait posted, regardless of quality.
None of you are allowed to complain about the site being shitty when you are directly responsible for it.

>>716018628
I mean it kind of had to do a bit. Fans looked at the graphics and saw a game intentionally targeting a younger age group than what they thought Zelda games shot for. And it was.

>>716018706
Fallout 3 and 4 aren't good bro

>>716008728
I still remember geting Skyward Sword for Christmas and excitedly playing it for about three hours before realizing how much I fucking hated it. Never got anywhere close to finishing it.

>>716018602
There's not an entire section of the game where you'll be goron rolling 24/7

>>716008621 (OP)
Rather than the Zelda franchise, Nintendo itself wasn't doing great. Remember, development for BotW started during the WiiU. So they palmed development of the next Zelda to the Xenoblade X devs because they were impressed by the game's world despite it not selling well.
BotW was a gamble through and through because staying the course they were on was causing the entire company to decay.

>>716018797
I finished it on the Switch remake. It is a decent game without the waggle bullshit but a pretty meh games. They reuse a lot of the dungeons and the places aren't good enough to warrant a revisit.

>>716018754
objectively incorrect, the information is there for you now have at you

>>716018790
Neither is New Vegas, troon.

>>716018951
>i'm thinking about trannies, making me the victor

>>716009830
Honestly ultrahand is a cool idea, but it was bogged down by shitty controls and UI. It's also a mechanic that deserves to have its own IP, it just isn't a fit with Zelda's fantasy-themed gameplay as whole.

>>716018930
>more corporate anti-art babble
yawn

>>716018847
I forget about snowhead and goht too sometimes

>>716018790
both are superior to new vegas

>>716018974
You're the New Vegas fan. Embrace your own community.

>>716008870
SS also got mogged by Dark Souls in its release year.
And now we saw ToTK get completely mogged by Elden Ring and the fucking bear sex game in the modern era.

>>716018982
I'm sure making ice platforms in the middle of nowhere is an important aspect of the game, and squabbling about a minor pointless artifact is worthwhile.

>>716008728
My autism forced me to 100% Hero mode.
Worst Zelda experience and basically got me to drop the entire series, only buying MM 3DS because I like MM but the boss fights were ruined.
>inefficiently brawling and wrestling in the Twinmold fight and then there's Gyorg's underwater fiasco
What the fuck man

>>716019084
>i'm thinking about you loving trannies, making me the victor

>>716008621 (OP)
They need to pivot away from BOTW formula

>>716019120
>hating wrastlan' the worm
soulless

>>716018984
1 ramp section and boss isn't comparable to navigating the great bay and you know it

>>716008621 (OP)
I've been replaying ocarina of time recently and it made me realize that I wasn't actually sick of classic zelda its just that the last few classic games were so painfully average that I thought I was.
Skyward sword could make anyone tired of zelda.
botw and totk are fun but I do miss a lot of the old zelda feel. They need to make a game thats a bit more of a middle ground between the two styles. They threw out too much of the classic zelda feel in botw.

>>716019179
of course he knows it but he's going to keep going to make you keep replying and you are so fucking stupid that you'll actually do it get off this fucking website already

>>716008728
>>716008621 (OP)
Skyward Sword was bad, but it popped up at the end of the Wii's life cycle and required a peripheral addon. It honestly seems like a complete overreaction on Nintendo's part due to the circumstances, but BOTW broke Zelda into hyper normgroid numbers so it worked out for them either way.

>>716019179
Navigating a beach isn't comparable to a dungeon of clockwork goron rolling ramps? gee. If that wasn't an issue than neither can be greatbay temple be. And you know it.

716019273
begone knave, you have proven to be a fool who doesn't take being BTFO well enough in stride

>>716019175
fuck your gay cinematic slop fight

>>716019372
Oh, you're both bots, then.

>>716019173
Nintendo doesn't really have a choice in the matter anyway, fucking freemium Chinese gacha games are already running laps around Nintendo's BoTW formula.
Their only real choice forward is a hybrid of the classic and BoTW formulas if they want Zelda series to retain its newfound success and fans.

>>716019467
Goddamn Tunic was a better experience to me than anything Nintendo's made in the last couple of decades excluding Hyrule Warriors

>>716013517
Does this mean Botw is the better Zelda formula because it sold more or less people played classic Zelda to know what a good Zelda is?

>>716014664
It also helped that when you first played Zelda you didn't know you could moce a lot of those obstacles. No one would have predicted you would get a hook shot to get to distant platforms. There were twists like that.

And the reason Majora's Mask had lower sales wasn't just that it was a sequel and kind of gloomy, but because you needed to buy a $60 expansion pack to play it.

>>716018483
>>716018542
Most of these fucking suck though

>>716019467
I was interested in playing Genshin Impact on the Switch, but nothing so far. Is it engaging enough in terms of exploration, combat and dungeon crawling?

>>716008621 (OP)
Their obsession with chasing after Bethesda open world slop. Smaller game worlds allow for more detailed enviroments and design. Zelda games don't have to be entirely linear like TP or Skyward Sword but having some structure or path creates a more satisfying experience.
Some dungeons in AttP can be done out of numerical order but each one is more difficult than the last. A link between worlds tried to make AttP but fully open world, and dungeon design suffered because of it.

I think BotW would have done better if it had some semblance of scaling and progression. Entering Hyrule Castle with 3 hearts and stick weapons should be next to impossible. Enemies around the Gerudo and Death Mountain should be very difficult. I'm not asking for strict level scaling and stat requirements but I want to feel like exploring outer edges of hyrule to be nasty and dangerous.

>>716018428
>Reception to Skyward Sword
Oh you mean this "lukewarm" reception anon?
>W-W-W-Well I mean...*gulp* T-The fans online-
Oh you mean on platforms where they discussed their opinion such as YouTube?

>>716019701
>errrrrrrm but my metacritic

>>716019637
>exploration
The zones are big I guess and there are interactions with some events (which are normally unrepeatable), much like other gachas.
>combat
Fancier than nu-Zelda slop but still quickly boring since you have like 1 singular combo and 1 super and character cycling instead.
>dungeon crawling
Absolutely not.

>>716008621 (OP)
Drifted further from OoT with each installment until it was very watered down and linear, Skyward Sword being just hallways and hubs.
People were generally less and less receptive each iteration so they went a radically different direction with BoTW/ToTK

A lot of 3D zelda fans just want OoT again. Wind Waker kept most of the formula but the overworld being an ocean made people mixed about it, but the actual gameplay was still close to OoT and very enjoyable, same item system, same magic meter, etc.

>>716019637
It's not just Genshin Impact, ripping off BoTW is par the course for open-world gacha games these days.

>>716019802
Wind Waker deserves a remake so it can finally be a finished game.

>>716015324
...Wait, is this shit true?

>>716018653
Oh really? Well let's see how Aonuma feels about that

can i play mario 64 or do i need some stupid workaround

>>716019880
I'd really enjoy that, get all the planned dungeons, and maybe a bit of Hyrule instead of just the castle + final dungeon.

>>716018759
Hey keep it Vidya, thanks.

>>716019802
People would've liked the ocean more if it wasn't so needlessly large, with vast swaths of nothing going for it. Personally, I didn't mind it and I could've even see and acknowledge what Aonuma was going for, but people didn't have the attention span for it back then, and they sure as hell don't have the attention span for it now.

>>716019775
>N-N-NO THE COLLECTIVE OF JOURNALISTS AND USERS DOESN'T COUNT!
Show me what does then :)

>>716008621 (OP)
Aonuma said he was tired of the formula. He's gone on record saying this and this new style of Zelda is more fun to create.

>>716020019
I think the ocean would have been better off if they didn't restrict each quadrant to having a single island and fleshed out the side content. Also didn't help you were gated from exploring most of it during the first half of the game by invisible walls.

>>716015486
reminder that koizumi is the one responsible for the original OOT and MM being as good as they are, aonuma's involvement was literally just "a-and i helped!"

>>716020086
>THE COLLECTIVE OF JOURNALISTS
You are silly.

>>716019880
If windwaker just had a couple more dungeons and more interesting islands to explore it would be my favourite zelda.

>>716019595
very disingenuous post, you should feel bad

>>716020318
very brown post, you should feel bad

>>716019881
https://www.ign.com/articles/2004/03/26/gdc-2004-the-history-of-zelda?page=2

>My first encounter with Zelda occurred in 1988 shortly after I joined Nintendo. After studying design in college, I began work designing pixel characters. At the time, I didn't have much experience playing games, and I was particularly bad at playing games that required quick reflexes. So, immediately after I started playing the original Zelda, I failed to read the movements of the Octorock in the field and my game suddenly game to an end. Even after getting used to the controls, each time the screen rolled to a new area new Octorock appeared and I thought 'am I going to have to fight these things forever?' Eventually, I gave up getting any further in the game.
>the result was that I was under the impression that the Legend of Zelda was not a game that suited me. So what kind of games did suit me? Those would be text-based adventures. For someone like me who enjoyed reading stories, these were games that allowed you to participate in the story and letting you experience the joy of seeing your own thoughts and actions affect the progression of the story. Plus, these games don't require fast reflexes and don't require traditional gaming skills. So, I thought that if I were going to make games, I would like to make this type of game.

and he's still grinding that ax to this day

https://www.zeldadungeon.net/breath-of-the-wilds-guardians-are-basically-modern-day-octoroks/
>You know, for the Guardians, I just happened to be talking to one of the staff members, saying, ‘When I played the first Legend of Zelda game, I felt like the Octorok were pretty huge. They’d make all these complicated movements, and I really didn’t like those guys.’ So we thought about creating an enemy using that image, and that’s how we came up with the Guardians.

>>716008728
Holy filtered

>>716008621 (OP)
they didn't really have another choice. their old formula was becoming dated, and they couldn't just start making Soulslikes, because Dark Souls was already up to DaS 3, and they would basically just be teaching Zelda fans to grow into another series. FromSoft have Zelda backed into a very interesting corner.

they can't make another Ocarina of Time, but if the core Zelda formula departs *too far* from OoT, it'll erode the legacy of their franchise a couple generations from now. new gen fans will be so attached to Soulslike Zelda that they'll downplay the fuck out of "old Zelda". they're in a precarious place. i'm surprised they got as lucky as they did and people accepted the Banjo and Kazooie Nuts & Bolts shit as a """meaningful""" addition to ToTK.

>>716019637
>exploration
Yes. Though Infinity Nikki was better in this regard, until the devs fucked up their own game by going full P2W with outright scam tactics and massive gameplay changes out of nowhere.
>combat
Yes, but it's now considered to be slow and clunky in comparison to other gacha titles on the market. Wuthering Waves is better in this regard.
>dungeon crawling.
No, and really, no gacha on the market handles dungeon crawling too well, because high-tier dungeons require actual talent, planning and effort to create. It's a major reason why classic dungeons need to return, as it'll separate them from the today's gacha competition.

>>716008728
Still the worst Zelda game.

>>716008621 (OP)
OoT and its clones were always bad, and no one cares what millennial tendies who grew up only playing N64 games in the 90s think. That's it.

>>716020564
isnt that chair stacking game the worst zelda

>>716020387
>Aonuma got fucking salty and assblasted because of an easy-to-kill basic mook enemy

Jesus Christ, Octoroks are fucking pushovers compared to whatever shit he could ever conjure the fuck up. Talk about turbo-filtered, goddamn.

>>716020175
Yeah, and as soon as Koizumi split off on his own he made...Sunshine. A WORSE game than WW. Get off his dick. What actually needs to happen is for them to work together again so Koizumi can write the story and Aonuma can just focus on the dungeons so he won't make any retarded BS with the narrative. If you are naive enough to think Koizumi wouldn't chase the open world fad and just make everything perfect you have his dick too far up your ass.

>>716020387
>gets filtered by the easiest enemy
>tries turning the easiest enemy into big scary robots that destroyed hyrule
>they are (unintentionally) still pathetically easy to deal with
Imagine if BOTW Link actually carried a shield before the Calamity happened. Wouldn't even be a game to play.

>>716020810
>and Aonuma can just focus on the dungeons
I wonder why he stopped doing that when it was what he was actually good at.

>>716020810
Koizumi was great at everything but the dungeons, while Aonuma was bad at everything but the dungeons. And Miyamoto was just there to fuck shit up, I guess.

>>716020968
Because he's literally said he was "bored" of it. Fujibayashi (OoS, OoA, MC prior to SS/BotW/TotK) is the director now and he's probably content watching and helping develop wacky physics over more pushing blocks, and shooting eye ball type stuff. They really should have never split them up. Keep Aonuma in his lane which in turn would have eased up the pressure and allow an ACTUAL writer like Koizumi to handled to narrative.

>>716019113
>more cherrypicking retard screeching
hmm

i miss meaningful item progression
collecting costumes is fun but majority of them look like shit and impact nothing meaningful

>>716022218
how do you feel that link can only use items as an adult or child

>>716018620
just like the sonic storybook games you're literally on autopilot down these straight hallways or areas that look open but you're forced to go a certain path the whole time only stopping to do some waggling now and then

>>716018625
>Created the design of adult OoT Link
>Invented Epona and Z-targeting
>Modelled Link and all the combat/story animations
>Designed the overworld of LTTP and established the lore of the three goddesses, Triforce and Ganon
>Directed LA
>Find out years later he was the one involved with the entire script and new mechanics of MM and basically everything about the game was his idea
This man is the real mastermind of Zelda and heavily responsible for it's success and nobody can convince me otherwise

pandora box opened, ain't no going back to that linear babby shit

>>716008621 (OP)
Every game after OoT being bad.

>>716012248
This is true. Huge waste of time with tedious shit nobody cares about. Any time a player isn't playing the game is failing. I say this mainly enjoying jrpg.

>>716008621 (OP)
Twilight Princess wasn't the second coming of OoT like Nintendo expected and then nobody liked Skyward Sword and it's easier to blame the formula than to just admit you've made a couple meh games. Applies more to SS than TP.

>>716008621 (OP)
A bunch of people who don't like Zelda complained about the Zelda formula being boring to the point that Nintendo convinced themselves that they had to change even though the games were selling great. Skyward/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks were all less popular because of forced motion controls; not structure. Nintendo were too arrogant to realize it and listened to the wrong people.

>>716009043
Faggot

>>716024003
Go to work, Aonuma-san.

>>716024914
>A bunch of people who don't like Zelda complained about the Zelda formula being boring
...Twilight Princess released in 2006, right? The game that was the best selling Zelda game at the time, right? Specifically because of its graphics. By 2011, the push for cinematic experiences was on full acceleration, weren't they? Skyward Sword was a very underwhelming title in spite of the Wii's userbase, that may have spooked Nintendo and take said complaints to heart.

>>716009780
>SS proved the formula was stale
SS didn't prove shit. If a Zelda game released at the same quality of any of the previous 3d games nobody would've complained

>>716026462
WW was already pretty polarizing because of the sailing and padding, and TP was criticized for being too much like OoT. People ALWAYS complain about Zelda games...why do you think the so called "Zelda-cycle" term came to be.

>>716026815
hyperbole. TECHNICALLY people will complain about everything.

>>716018706
Biggest newfag I've seen in awhile.

>>716026917
>hyperbole

Not really. There was a split of fans between WW and TP (some people loved the form but not that latter or visa versa), not to mention a portion people calling out the post N64 games as being inferior in quality. SS was just the first time there was a more "unified" discontent.

>>716008621 (OP)
>forced
Nothing forced them to, they decided to do it as part of their new 'make your own fun' bullshit philosophy

>>716013634
Arin was too retarded to use the shield button

>>716018008
They were going to make a new 3d zelda eventually better that then wasting time prototyping motion control sword controls and them releasing skyward sword in the last year of the wii

>>716014231
Wtf are you talking about? EoW didn't sell well because it's nothing like botw or totk. Hell, it's not even like Links Awakening which sold better on the switch than Gameboy

>>716009830
>traditional linear Zelda
I don't like that word choice, to be frank.
OoT and MM weren't /that/ linear compared to post-N64 Zeldas.

>>716020810
He had no time to make a 3d mario because they did not plan to launch the gamecube with one, mario 64 2 just being a test bed for the 64 dd features and trying to get mutiplayer to work, and then when they finally got one that was not a tech demo into full development they rushed it to save the gamecube

>>716018356
I doubt wind waker was rushed because of the backlash over the art style. I assume it was rushed because Nintendo was in dire straits early on in the Gamecube's lifetime and was struggling to get big name titles out the door like Wind Waker and Sunshine.

>>716018979
>Honestly ultrahand is a cool idea
and it's never coming back or being iterated upon
https://gameinformer.com/interview/2023/12/07/aonuma-and-fujibayashi-talk-tears-of-the-kingdoms-reception-and-their-approach
>From that perspective, I don't think we'll be seeing Ultrahand in every Zelda game or anything in the future.

>>716013684
None of those games in the top 10 should be there

>>716019591
>$60 expansion pack to play it.
It wasn't $60, more like $20 and mm didn't sell well because people had moved on from that generation and into Dreamcast and PlayStation 2.

>>716008621 (OP)
did you not play SS? just looking at what SS did wrong in comparison to botw even aside from the open world stuff would give you a clue

>>716028521
Only Persona 5 and Elden Ring imo

>>716023920
What has he done at the Mario team?

>>716028957
He directed Sunshine and Galaxy. while overseeing the production of Galaxy 2 and Odyssey. He threw in the little lore for Rosalina behind Miyamoto's back in G1. Since then he's been a senior executive officer.

>>716012191
>But NES Zelda was a lot more open ended than ALTTP and OOT.
Gold from the left-most side of the map to the right-most takes... 1 and a half minute? 2 minutes?

>not open world
>small overworld
>similar to majoras mask dungeons
>twilight princess combat with better enemies
Here, take all my money.

>>716029161
>But NES Zelda was a lot more open ended than ALTTP and OOT.
Going from the left-most side of the map to the right-most side in FDS/NES Zelda takes... 1 and a half minute? 2 minutes?

>>716010613
He's just bitter that his first solo project WW got critically panned and nobody liked his other attempts to "correct" the series. BoTW is his favorite now because he finally struck normalfag gold with it and so he has no problem throwing the veteran fans out to the wolves. BoTW is his OoT, his legacy he always wanted.

Solution is to take the open world but add actual dungeons to it. None of this "wow that looks interesting, but it's actually fucking nothing" that both botw and totk have.

>>716023920
It always pained me that he never got to do another Zelda game. Koizumi really was best fit for Zelda

>>716029331
Anon you know he means how you can tackle any dungeon in any order in NES and not the actual size of the open world map

>>716012191
>>716029331
ffs

>>716008621 (OP)
cue the miyamoto "you don't know what u rike" image

>windwaker
>waah too cartoony
>TP
>waah to brown and piss
>skyward sword
>waah artstyle too mixed, also the over world is the worst it's ever been
I really think the criticisms of the sky area were the loudest complaint so we got BotW

>>716030002
I don't understand why Aonuma doesn't get this
Imagine walking into a cave at the top of a mountain and navigating the tunnels inside, going deeper and deeper until you fall down a long drop and then "SHADOW TEMPLE" or something pops up.
That's all they have to do. But they refuse.

>>716030006
At least writing wise. Which is why he should have stayed on for the story content while Aonuma was relegated to dungeon duty.

>>716026815
Wind Waker's "controversy" has been massively overblown over the years. The game was one of the best selling GC games, got excellent reviews, and was always near the top of best GC games. The minority that bashed it 25 years ago have just continued to bash it giving it this reputation of being maligned when it wasn't at all.

>>716030002
>>716030150
it's all I want honestly, the open world in BotW/TotK is fantastic with lots to do and heaps of interactions, but I know when I find a point of interest it will never be the quality level of a previous zelda title's dungeon

>>716030064
>Anon you know he means how you can tackle any dungeon in any order in NES
Not really. You need the items from early dungeons to progress.

>>716030276
the biggest complaint of WW back in the day was cel shading, it was the hot new meme and everyone hated it in every game even though it was fine

>>716023920
>Designed the overworld of LTTP and established the lore of the three goddesses, Triforce and Ganon
Who was the retard that decided to throw all that away and bring in Hylia and Demise in SS?

>>716030335
Even that was just a minority of online users bitching and moaning while everybody else told them to shut up.

>>716030002
>>716030143
Funny enough, and I hate that I have to reference it here but, Elden Ring basically does this and I wish Zelda would take notes. There's a bunch of mini dungeons all over the world and it rewards you for exploration and I was disappointed that TotK didn't even attempt anything nearly as cool

>>716030150
>But they refuse.

Because they are simply bored of regular dungeons anon. The two people in charge now have been involved in the dungeons of OoT, OoA, OoS, MM, WW, TP, MC, SS and ALBW in terms of the traditional format between them. I guess you could throw in PH and ST as well. They wanted to find a spark and they did with the physics. It's simply more fun for them to make a game around that.

>>716030418
yeah elden ring manages to have a few locations that are up to par with the previous installments, even if there's a lot of filler and 15 copy pasted ulcerated tree spirits

>>716030461
the thing is, you could take a lot of the pieces of BotW/TotK and give the fans what they want, cut like 20 shrines with similar mechanics, give them their own unique tileset and stitch them together in a cohesive dungeon, it wouldn't be that hard

Maybe I just have to accept that Zelda isn't for me anymore....
At least I'll always have the older games

>>716030335
>>716030376
Come on now, don't do this revisionist history BS. People complained about the sailing and they padded triforce hunt at the end of the game. There were also complaints about the dungeons in comparison to those of OoT. No Zelda game will satisfy everyone and there will ALWAYS be a subsection to people that feel disappointed.

>>716008621 (OP)
OoT perfected the formula.
TP reached the point where it was clear that they were just making the same game again and again with progressively more vapid gimmicks to try to mix things up.

It's not that the perception of OoT-style Zelda was destroyed. It was just played out.

>>716026815
>why do you think the so called "Zelda-cycle" term came to be.
It came to be because of secondaries that got into the series via the Gamecube titles feeling left out because actual Zelda fans had complaints with their games.

>>716030575
there was definitely complaints about the triforce hunt, but I find a lot of complaints about zelda games are semi-surface level and not from people who play 100%

>>716030276
>The game was one of the best selling GC games
Low bar. It nearly killed Zelda for selling so low.

>>716030597
TP could have been better than OoT if the bad things weren't so bad, it has really good dungeons

>>716030342
Either Fujibayashi or Aonuma

>>716030575
I'm not saying there weren't complaints. I'm saying those complaints have been overblown throughout the years. When the game was release there wasn't this massive backlash against it.
>>716030667
You're an idiot.

>>716030547
If you want a series that doesn't really change you may as well go to Dragon Quest. Many of my favorite franchises don't resemble what they were before (RE, MH, FF, Zelda, etc). I've come to accept that and just play they games as they are. I personally enjoy them most of the time even if none of the new entries in either series reaches the top of their respective franchise. I'm nearing 40 and I've come to be tired of just longing for the past all the time game wise. That's just me though.

>>716030847
>You're an idiot.
I'm not the one pushing revisionism for shit that's available to anybody on the internet to fact check.

>>716031198
It sold over 4 million copies, retard. That's good for any game and most certainly isn't "almost killed the franchise" level. You're just shitposting. Fuck off.

>>716030597
OoT was the first attempt at the 3d adventure formula that wasn't from some no name third party like Apogee. What is more likely? Nintendo magically hit a hole in one on their very first try in 3d with no experience in 3d,

OR: OoT is overrated, gaslit the fuck out of everyone because they had no standard to compare it to and it's formula gradually got beat down by time when talented competition to the 3d genre showed up? There's no magic power of OoT that diminished as time went on. It just got exposed for what it was.

>>716031273
4 million is fucking pitiful for Zelda and yes it almost killed the franchise, that's straight from Aonumale's mouth. You're a retarded secondary, do some research before you run your mouth like an idiot.

Decline started with wind waker and skyward sealed the deal. The zelda team got horny over Skyrim and the business suits did as well given its sales figures and thus BotW was born

>>716031510
>Nintendo magically hit a hole in one on their very first try in 3d with no experience in 3d,
it's this, the 3D elements (new, experimental) were shaky (platforming, camera) but nintendo had been making incredible games for over a decade before

>>716031517
I don't give a fuck what he says. He's full of shit. If WW almost killed the franchise then what did MM do when it sold even less? WW sold a hair less than LttP. Sold more than any of the handhelds. And it did it on a console that was barely a year old. Don't talk about revisionism. There was no threat about WW killing the franchise. That is what is pure revisionism.

>>716008621 (OP)
Starting with WW, Aonuma spent over a decade trying to sell us the shadow of OoT with a new code of paint or gimmick. People were getting tired of it. Breath was when Fujibiyashi finally took full reins of the series and was able to do his own thing with it.

>>716031853
You're a fucking idiot and the more that you keep running your mouth, the stupider you sound.

>>716031139
That's a good mentality to have

>>716032003
Sure. Says the guy that thinks the game that sold more than the majority of Zelda titles was a failure that almost doomed the series. Eat shit and die, retard.

>>716031853
the brass at nintendo have been talking about zelda being on shaky ground for ages, not just from WW to be honest, though I doubt they'd ever really nix the series considering it's basically a core pillar of their entire brand

>>716032104
>WW sold more than the majority of Zelda titles
Literal fucking idiot, holy shit. Keep talking moron. It's good content.

>>716032242
It's was literally one of the top 10 best selling game on the gamecube. Any talk about it being a failure is hyperbole. It under performed compared OoT but it wasn't close to being a failure or dooming the series. That is 100% nonsense.

>>716032307
>posting facts make you a retard
Interesting. How does it feel to still be irrationally malding over an artstyle for 20 years?

>>716032371
the gamecube as a console did poorly, everyone got the It's-Also-A-BluRay-Player PS2

>>716032440
I don't know. You tell me since WWtoddlers drone on and on about muh art style aging, muh expressions. It clearly matters more to you than me.

>>716032547
That didn't even make sense, retard.

>>716031623
If BotW hadn't sold well, you can bet the following Zelda game would have looked very different. Really TotK probably got made in part because the team saw all the social media exploits in BotW. So they assumed "Hey, that game sold 30 million? Why don't we give them even MORE toys to fuck around with this time in this world? They'll love it haha!" Which to be fair, is something many people would have done if they don't really hang around messages boards beyond very surface level stuff. Now though, they see they've exhausted everything they wanted to go and it didn't sell as well (20 million to still a fuckton) so they are going back to the drawing board.

>>716008621 (OP)
Because each game just got worse and worse doing the exact same thing from the N64 Games
>WW was unfinished and bloated with filler
>TP was a uninspired remake for a game that wasn’t that old with no identity
>SS is obviously ass
OOT and MM just did everything with the formula

>>716032657
I'm sorry that you're a fucking idiot but I can't trim it down any further other than calling you a fucking idiot that needs his media to be like his glue sticks, bright and colorful with little cartoons on it.

>>716032791
>aks what it's like to be angry for 2 decades
>get told to go ask the people who have been happy for 2 decades
????
>1pm in india
Never mind. This retarded exchange makes perfect sense now.

no

>>716032902
>aks what it's like to be angry for 2 decades
>aks
>1pm in India
Yeah, you'd know. Wouldn't you? Keep replying, idiot.

>>716032761
Aonuma actually came out and apologized for the Triforce Quest, hence it getting made less tedious in the Wii U version. I also seem to recall he was essentially forced to make TP by Miyamoto because of gaming climate at the time, and you can tell it's a very by the numbers boringly safe game.

>>716009043
>>716009337
Why is OP obsessed with some e-celeb no one has ever heard of? Is this the power of autism?

>>716032969
English is hard for you, isn't it?
>>716032969
>Keep replying, idiot.
Hello, pot.

Skyward Sword was a great game especially after they patched Fi being annoying in the Switch port and I will die on this hill

>>716008621 (OP)
It is a product of years of backlash.
Wind Waker was attacked due to celshading.
Twilight Princess got some negative due to wolf sections.
Skyward Sword was just shit.

>>716018362
oraclebros...is this real?!

>>716036674
Yes. But Oracles were Fujibayashi's first game so it's hard to say how much of it was just him deferring to the senior experience.

>>716032984
The keynote speech where he talks about Wind Waker's failure, DS Zeldas, and TP's development is really fascinating to read over
>Wind Waker didn't do good numbers in Japan, but not because it was bad... people just didn't want to play video games anymore!!
>People didn't like Toon Link, so when I found out the DS could do cel shading, I IMMEDIATELY told my staff to do Toon Link
>I told Miyamoto we should turn Link into a wolf to have a light world/dark world style gimmick in the new Zelda. He went "lol it's hard enough animating a two legged character you dumbshit lmao"
>I walked out to go play with Capcom as they made Minish Cap (n-not because it's a Toon Link game or anything like that, baka!) and when I came back to Twilight Princess I found the project had been rudderless without a director. Who would have thought?!

>>716019291
>required a peripheral addon
everybody had it

>>716009830
The lack of any item or power progression is a giant problem in both BotW and TotK. Not ever do I wonder "what if I came back later to this place when I'm stronger or got more, better items" as there are no real items other than weapons to collect. Same with the dungeons. With no items to use, almost no real puzzles and the absolute non-linearity of the dungeons there's no real fun in them. The shrines in BotW were somewhat fun to me but in TotK they were mostly piss easy and the sky world and the underground were empty as fuck. How can he not understand how important some aspects of linearity are? The big open world of BotW and TotK isn't really the problem, it's just the lack of depth at most places. I want to explore it, I want to be rewarded for exploring it and I want to have some kind of mystery through progression where I find stuff like shut doors or something like bombable places that I cannot outright explore and have to reward myself through playing further first.

>>716010613
I doubt it was any of that. It's just a generalized thing.
>make Majora's Mask alongside Koizumi, it's stuck in the shadow of Ocarina of Time and more of a cult classic lost in the hayday of the new millennium at the time; when he revisits it for the 3DS, Aonuma fucking hates how untraditional it was and skullfucks it, complete with making a "WHAT WERE WE THINKING?" list
>make Wind Waker, too many people reject it because it's so cartoony, and while people like the core gameplay, it was just too empty and felt more like a means to get used to the hardware
>make Twilight Princess, people think it's also empty, has too much tutorialization, and ultimately was a very uninspired retread of Ocarina of Time
>make Skyward Sword, people hate the waggle, Fi's interruptions, shield durability, the list goes on, and it becomes a black sheep of the mainline series because of trying to shift things in directions folks didn't want
At that point I'd probably either massively shake up everything too because despite all the games selling quite well, Aonuma never escaped the lingering presence of Koizumi's industry-defining work. And you can just see the fucking smug satisfaction he has with BotW managing to shift things, how he considers everyone that likes the older style of Zelda games to only like them because of nostalgia rather than for their intrinsic values.

Then he literally repeated the EXACT SAME THING by making TotK which just lives in the shadow of BotW.

>>716008621 (OP)
Every Zelda game since Ocarina of time has been derivative of Ocarina of time (except Majora's Mask but a game like that will never come out again). They had to do something new.

It's been ages since I've played NES Zelda, but was it really open world because it was designed to be open world, or open world because of limitations with the hardware that they couldn't really do set paths to things? I have faint memories of shit like game manuals being used as part of the game to give it linearity, because you couldn't do things like that in-game for other games as well.

>>716038523
They could have made it linear, they chose not to.

>>716018797
Pretty much the same but I powered through, hoping I would change my mind by the end. Got to the final boss where you have to fight the Imprisoned for the third or fourth time and just gave up. Twilight Princess was better and it's not even close.

>>716038523
Dungeons were (largely) linear, certain keys for certain doors, certain items to progress certain points, though you could tackle the dungeons in some varied orders. The overworld is technically pretty open and ambitiously so for its time, but the reality is the only way to actually make any major headway in it is to hit up some dungeons for items or find secret shopkeeps and then run around bombing and burning everything possible if you don't have a guide on hand; the openness is mostly an illusion when you still need to tackle certain content to get to other content, you just get to decide the order of some aspects of it.

>>716038781
So essentially you had to play the game with the manual? Was this one of those games that had the guide as part of the manual? So the open world aspect of it comes from people emulating it or playing second hand copies without book in hand?

>>716038523
There are Hydlide-derivates that are very linear. It's probably easier to make too. I didn't think they meant anything by it (hard to judge today's closed/open-world distinction and apply it in NES era).
It's taken for granted the player has the manual too.

>>716039058
The manual is a good bonus but for Zelda 1 it is not required.

>>716039058
nah, it was a playground/workplace game. you'd talk with friends, with family, everyone running around experimenting with different bushes and parts of the map finding all sorts of secrets and goodies. most of them are optional, a few weren't. the manual was QUITE detailed in how the game works and plays, and gives you the absolute baseline of how to get to the first dungeon, but beyond that it was up to you.
nowadays you'd just have a Gamefaqs guide or something on-hand because no one is gonna be discussing secrets on an NES game the same way anymore

>>716036348
>play SS with depression and way too weak glasses
>can feel no joy and drop the game at the fire boss because I died once and had to squint the entire time
>years later
>got mental health
>got new glasses
>decided to continue my playthrough
>was so fucking good and fun
>they even finally fixed the 3 hit boss formula
>it would be my favourite zelda if it had fishing

>>716008621 (OP)
Nothing they made since OoT had the impact that it did. Majora's Mask was a weird cult spin-off, Windwaker was half finished, Twilight Princess half the players hated the wolf segments, Skyward Sword was near unplayable. Without the Nintendo Magic Lens of "This game hit me hard as a kid", none of these games are particularly great. If you weren't a kid when OoT came out you probably don't think it's very good. Nintendo has a knack for making a game that's appealing and memorable for kids, so much so that it can be a defining childhood experience for many people, and this is their business model. Every one of their games sells itself based on the strength of the childhood experience. Whatever your first Zelda game was is probably your favorite because peter pan king arthur doesn't land the second, third or fourth time the way it did when you were younger, but you're going to keep buying/playing them because of the nostalgia for that wonderment you felt. BoTW is just a pivot to what is appealing to kids of the current generation, they are going to experience the wonderment of fairy boy in tights in a high fantasy setting and it's going to be the best Zelda game of all time to them because it popped their cherry. Same as when Gen X'ers played the original for the first time, same as when millennials played OoT. OoT was designed to appeal to millenials, it had tons of cutscenes, forced animations and jingles that Gen X'ers found obnoxious. Millennials find the survival crafting mechanics in OoT obnoxious.

>>716008621 (OP)
they refused to just make a game like OoT but better

>>716008621 (OP)
if you squint, maybe botw is not that different from oot. getting epona lites, fighting that pineapple in the overworld.

>>716008621 (OP)
Lackluster sales

>>716008621 (OP)
everyone said it a million times already, it was linearity
TP was very linear already and then they doubled it down in SS and to top it off SS wasn't nearly as good as TP

>>716008621 (OP)
you made this same thread earlier

>>716040919
Oh wow! Congratulations! Want a prize?
Moron

>>716008621 (OP)
>destroyed the perception of the 3D Zelda formula so much
When I played the games and saw that the OoT formula is inherently bad, lazy, outdated (even when it first came out), and completely dead end game design. This is literally every single "puzzle" in the OoT formula with how the dungeons (I use that word loosely) are designed. A single linear, segmented room that doesn't take advantage of 3D space, where you don't do anything but just walk right up to an interactable object in the environment (which you don't need to even scan the room for since Navi just flies towards it holding your hand even more) and use the item you just got in the dungeon to do more of the same thing you've been doing. It's boring, repetitive, and formulaic. There's nowhere to go from here, that's why TP and SS made no advancements because it's just a dead end. That's why Nintendo dropped it. The 2D games where always better, as evident by ALBW, LA remake, and EoW and Nintendo still wanting to make more of those kinds of games.

The less we talk about the overworlds in the OoT formula the better.

>>716009830
He's right. Likese adventure games and RPGs are inherently trash.

>>716008870
Posts like these make me think everyone but me is poor as fuck.
I played all of those games. I never got these "competing" releases memes.

>>716041818
linear*

>>716008870
Bethesda games are by far the most overrated out there

>>716023920
Cuckzumi are so delusional they are pretending this idiot designed LttP's overworld. Holy fuck, he really IS Nintendo's Kojima.

>>716041616
>where you don't do anything but just walk right up to an interactable object in the environment
I'm so glad Nintendo fixed this finally, I cannot believe it took 20 years though

>>716037772
Everything you wrote is wrong.

>>716037772
>"what if I came back later to this place when I'm stronger or got more, better items"
you conflated two things
1. being if you came back stronger
2. if you came back with a new equipment
and with that you're missing one key thing, that things are able to be solved with wit and ingenuity, and not whether you have the one thing that hand wave solves the one thing.

>>716030342
Ganon died in OoT, what else was there to do?

>>716042502
He's right about the boring dungeons

>>716008728
Skyward sword it's a big change from the Zelda formula. They went for the movie game because it's what was popular at the time the same way botw does.

Everything is simplified and easier, more and lengthier cutscenes plus a necessity to justify motion controls.

>>716042667
>that things are able to be solved with wit and ingenuit
The shrines in totk can all be brute forced

>>716042853
He missed the part where previous games had boring dungeons

>>716042949
A lot yeah, but there were some good ones. Botw and totk have 0 good dungeons

>>716042853
He's right about everything, ur in denial

>>716043002
not really, the thing they claimed to want is optional goodies to find (that they have to come back for) and they're there in divine beasts and shrines (and you dont have to come back for them) I take it they're tarded

>>716042853
He's not. You don't know what good dungeon design means if you think 3D Zelda prior BotW has good dungeons with all the constant filler padding and inability to even jump. Hyrule Castle is the greatest dungeon ever created in a 3D action-adventure game, and the fact something of that caliber came from Nintendo of all places blows my fucking mind. The Divine Beasts are the first good implementation of the moving dungeon gimmick the 3D games tried to do but failed lots of times. But go ahead and tell me interacting with something in real-time is worse than watching a cutscene for a basic static change.

>>716042948
If they could then choose not to do it. No real issue there, it sure beats being forced through the one precise way the devs intend while a sidekick interjects hints.

>>716043141
I really like divine beasts the most out of any dungeon the series had. It's like each one is a unique take on stonehead temple, without the tedium at all.

ruto or mipha?

>>716043251
Yeah, they're fantastic. Having lots of control over different state changes and playing with different elemental gimmicks is fun. Thunderblight and Maz Monk are also the best bosses the series has ever seen.

>>716009830
The restrictions are what makes games into games. Being able to bring a gun to an MMA fight certainly give you more freedom, but then it's not MMA anymore, is it?

>>716008621 (OP)
A series of disappointing games. WW, TP and SS all had their own severe flaws. None recaptured the OoT magic.

>>716043471
Only retards who grew up playing a select few mediocre console games thinks non-linearity and player agency, especially in 3D games, say this.

>>716043471
All there needs to be is a cranking of the difficulty in the games now. It's clear you guys dont understand what Aonuma means here. You can choose to go anywhere, and you will face whatever obstacles are in that path you chose. There's no reason to return back to a design where there's just one path and you must go it.

>>716042680
Gee it's almost like MC and TP and SS at first all had new original villains

>>716009830
>"Why do you want to go back to a type of game where you're more limited or more restricted in the types of things or ways you can play?
A lot of dungeons were designed for dynamic ways to play and types of things to do, the tools you got across those games even allowed for it outside the dungeons. Does Aonuma have alzheimers?

>>716008621 (OP)
>What exactly, if anything, destroyed the perception of the 3D Zelda formula so much that Nintendo was forced to pivot to BotW?
OoT was already going in the wrong direction, tough luck, the devs decided to turn OoT into a formula. Time goes on, the shortcomings not only become more and more blatant, the formula became such a powerful shackle that the only way the devs found to keep things fresh are (shitty) gimmicks.

>>716044721
>A lot of dungeons were designed for dynamic ways to play and types of things to do
Try none of them.

>>716045234
Forest temple

>>716044721
>A lot of dungeons were designed for dynamic ways to play and types of things to do
Bizarro Aonuma Zelda

>>716045478
>push blocks in a hallway
>shoot the eyeball
>block puzzle
There's nothing dynamic about any of these dungeons because the game is not designed with meaningful player input in mind, quite literally the opposite. Aonuma Zelda is the equivalent of dog training.

>>716045478
Hell no.

>>716045478
yeah remember that time in forest temple where you could uhhhh, umm, errr uh, hmmm.. oh yeah the uh, wait.. the.. I'm stumped.

>>716045478
"Dynamic" gameplay.

>>716008621 (OP)
>skyward sword was a linear handholdy piece of poopoo
>people made fun of it and twilight princess to a less extent
>BoTW comes out and people praise it while wishing that any sequel has more “Zelda like” elements
>ToTK is literally just BoTW 1.5 and now people are sick of that formula as well
It’s not that deep

>>716045883
>>716045854
>>716045826
>>716045783
The fact that two words triggered you so bad means I'm right

>>716046537
The fact that you're a retarded OoToddler proves you wrong.

>>716045883
The "dungeons" of this game are such garbage. That goes for every Aonuma style entry.

>>716008621 (OP)
>>716009043
>>716010613
>>716011125
>>716012237
What's up with the shittuber shilling?

>>716008621 (OP)
>>716008728
Skyward Sword was miserably bad and only adhered to the most surface level aspects of the Zelda formula.
A major part of what keeps the Zelda formula enticing is good flow and variation, whereas SS is mind-numbingly samey with everything being a fairly self-contained puzzle. It occasionally grasps the essence of what would make for a Zelda game when it has you reconfigure a dungeon and actually keep that in mind, but it is just as quick to give away the correct configuration.
The combat isn't really capable of being particularly zen, because you are often fighting against the controls as much as you are fighting against the enemies.

>>716046941
Once again the opposing party can only deflect and insult

>>716047546
There is no Zelda formula. OoT creating a shitty style of dungeon design with a barren overworld they copied with TP and SS is not the "Zelda formula". Formulas are inherently shit in the first place. Predictability is the number one enemy of adventure.

>>716047723
>deflect
I literally posted a webm of the Forest Temple's supposed dynamic gameplay. Keep drinking that the koolaid you grew up on pretending your nostalgia holds any weight on actual game design.

>>716008780
I hate to be the “sales=quality” guy but TP was the best selling Zelda game until BoTW came out. I loved it and so did all of my friends, was the general consensus really “disappointing?” Yeah I remember 8.8 but I don’t care about journalists

>>716047906
Yes yes whatever you say

>>716008621 (OP)
Because it was never good. OoT can work only like old game. It can't be modern.

The Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening - kino

Botw - ubislop

>>716048127
I couldn't be more happy the OoT formula is dead in a ditch and you retarded manchildren will continue to cry more and more while Zelda gets more successful and popular than ever before. Your nostalgia isn't worth shit.

>>716048282
Ok

>>716048101
That was only in the west. It bombed in Japan.

>>716048370
It is interesting how the west and japan both want drastically different things from the franchise

Skyrim came out and people just enjoyed that more.

It's funny that BotWfags' chief argument is now "Zelda was never good before BotW".

>>716048625
It's funny how you believe your delusions are reality, but do go on.

>>716047762
>shitty style of dungeon design with a barren overworld they copied with TP and SS
SS doesn't copy the overworld design at all. The entire overworld is basically just a level select with no connection to the lower world at all and there is no real separation between the dungeon areas and the underworld area.
>Predictability is the number one enemy of adventure.
It's a shame that the new "style" is so much more predictable then. You may be able to predict the vague outline of what comes next with the "Zelda formula", but that's preferable to every moment being the exact same as the previous moment in current Zelda games.

>>716048189
>The Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening - kino
The dungeons were fucking boring and repetitive.

The amount of samefagging in this thread is both blatant and pathetic. I strongly urge samefags to kill themselves ASAP.

>>716048791
>The entire overworld is basically just a level select with no connection to the lower world at all
You're describing OoT and TP as well.
>is so much more predictable then.
I'm sure you're not stupid enough to pretend getting an item and then using nothing but that item to solve very specific "puzzles" and then proceeding to use it three times to stun the boss and then wail on them is very nuance and mechanically complex gameplay, and not the most boring and formulaic shit imaginable.
>You may be able to predict the vague outline of what comes next with the "Zelda formula"
You mean you get generic clones like TP and SS?

>>716049009
>dungeons were fucking boring and repetitive
Repetitive yes. Boring no. Short zelda can't be boring

You know, I can't help but feel that it was just a bit intentional that the only 3D Zelda that got a rerelease on Switch was the panned game that killed the classic formula.

>>716048625
OoT is 7/10 for the time, botw elevated it to 8/10. Sequelitis showed that 2d zelda is superior. It's quick, you open a chest in alttp and BANG. 10/10.

>>716050676
>It's quick, you open a chest in alttp and BANG.
There's also no stupid "play the song" gimmickshit. Or a cutscene everytime you walk through a door. Or a cutscene when you interact with basically anything. Or let alone anything as padded or as pointless as this god-tier puzzle.

>>716047723
>the opposing party can only deflect and insult

>>716045783
>>716046537

>>716050435
There was zero reason for Nintendo to not release WW and TP on the switch

>>716051016
TP worst offender is vine climbing.

>>716051129
Thanks for proving me right, have a blessed day

>>716051292
You have no counter argument, which is why the only resort you have is diverting attention away with weak ad personam.

>>716051398
Ok

Anyone want to fap to Zelda girls together?

>>716051257
Instead they're just relegated to the crap emulation on NSO2.

>>716008621 (OP)
The next 4 Zelda's came out a long side the blue ocean strategy and where over designed and swimming with tutorials and bullshit. People already complain about oot and mm having a slow start. Twilight princess to skyward sword and the two point and click hand held Zelda's alienated all but the most hardcore fans

>>716018628
6 dungeons

>>716052260
This. TP, PH, ST and SS is the dark age of Zelda. Nothing should ever get as bad as that.

>>716019637
It's a gacha you stupid nigger. A solo mmo

>>716052260
>OoT
>slow start
What the fuck? OoT has the most expedient start of the 3D games by far, including BotW and TotK.

>>716050676
>game mediocre for its time aged into fine wine
uhhh

>>716053124
I have a zoomer (I know, low bar) friend who dropped the game during the first dungeon.

>>716053124
I said it's reputation has that.