>To understand why this is a bad thing, we have to confront a hard truth that few people seem to want to face about the Souls games, including FromSoft themselves. But here it is: the combat is nothing remarkable. Before you get your codpiece in a twist, keep in mind: that doesn't equate to mediocre gameplay. As a whole, it's hugely elevated by generally great level design, player freedom, load-out options, and some unique supplemental mechanics like World Tendency, covenants and Insight.
>But in terms of actual complexity, there's not much going on. There's not much *depth*. And that wouldn't be a problem. Except that the series has increasingly leaned on its action elements more and more as time has gone by, while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter. Which leaves you with rolling as your one and only reactive action.
>So prepare to roll, again and again, and again and again and again.

This was 8 years ago. Before Elden Ring, before Erdtree, before Nightreighn. Looking back, do you believe he was right the direction the Souls series was taking?

I have no idea what the fuck this is supposed to mean

nobody cares about this “mechanics” argument you retarded tranny. in fact only a mindbroken discord tranny could think such an obviously transgender argument would be convincing. shazam lost. weak thread. sage and hide

This guy was the start of complete trash cans who suck ass at video games refusing to engage with game mechanics past mashing r1 and O and brute forcing the game, so no, he was not right. Dark souls is an action rpg, but it is not a character action game. Guy is a retarded nigger like every faggot fucking eceleb spewing their shitty opinions for troglodytes on /v/ to parrot ad nauseam.

>>716057637 (OP)
>such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter
all games that have these features are simpler and have less gameplay depth than souls, having only depth in regards to expression but not the actual 'fight'

claiming otherwise proves youre bad at souls or insanely bad at DMC/bayonetta

>>716057918
There's no way whoever typed this is over 18

>>716057865
>I have no idea what the fuck this is supposed to mean
Souls games were initially about a plurality of elements that came together to form a cohesive experience of an adventure in a fantasy world. They gradually shed most of the elements that made up that experience in favor of focusing entirely on action. However, the action, despite being the backbone of the experience, is very basic in isolation.

>>716057637 (OP)
Everything after Dark Souls III became fast-paced and borderline hacking n' slashing. Back then, Parrying and Positioning were key elements on winning a fight, and now its just rolling until the enemy finishes their combo attack.

>>716057937
The point is that every combat after DS3 is just rolling over and over, when back then such a strategy is discouraged and most of the time you are punished for doing so.

>>716057918
/pol/ is down the hallway, anon.

>>716058185
And what in the fuck did demon's souls have that dark souls 1,2 or 3 doesn't?

Or is this supposed to mean "more of the same with a different coat of paint" type argument? Either way i want serious harm to befall people who think like this

>>716057637 (OP)
This is why Souls games are so popular. Brainless enough for the masses. The answer to everything is just roll bro. It doesn't matter how you play or the build, you just roll. Sekiro the same thing but instead of roll you press a button to parry. The moment you add complexity to combat it's over. Normies and streamers will not buy your game.

>>716058271
>immediately proved my point
Thanks.

Go into any Soulslike dedicated community(/vg/, xitter, reddit etc) and people will universally denounce the bosses in Demon's Souls as gimmicky and the "runbacks"(aka the fucking game world) in Dark Souls 1 as being too long. The reality is that the souslike fanbase was never in it for an experience that demanded even an iota of critical thinking, they just wanted a gimped action game because DMC or Ninja Gaiden were too inaccessible for them.

>>716057637 (OP)
Take your meds.

>>716057637 (OP)
Demons Souls is literally an action rpg though. It leaned on its action elements from the very start.

>>716057637 (OP)
>character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter
Not including garbage like this is precisely why these games got so popular, get fucked actionfags, ARPGs are the superior genre.

>>716058906
>ARPGs
You mean like Diablo and PoE? I thought this was a thread about Souls games

>>716058271
>The point is that every combat after DS3 is just rolling over and over
Ok, so when DS2 was not that at all he got filtered because why? It's literally the only one where if he wanted to make a build where rolling is your worst defensive option he can. It's everything he says souls is supposed to be and wants.

Oh boy, I can't wait for all the good faith arguments full of original, thought-provoking insights that will be posted in this thread. Surely it won't just be stale bait and people who don't understand game design screeching at each other for the thousandth day in a row.

>>716058185
>in isolation.
this isnt true, as Souls uses its enemies to create Emergent gameplay in combination with build diversity simply by being creative with its enemies
to put simply, Rellana, Twin Moon Knights fight with any build (of which there are several, each creating a unique choreography) is more fun and unique/in depth/different than any permutation of DMC5 bosses and characters when it comes to the depth of the interaction and conflict, simply because DMC5 is to easy and lenient unless you are going for style points
Elden Ring proves that enemy variety and tight design, even with (realistically) hundreds of permutations of gameplay styles, is the thing that sets apart good games in regards to depth and combat. Its not like there arent videos or guides on how to get good at Elden Ring, or skillsets for you to pick up, different abilities etc. Ultimately, DMC5 is just easy, even on DMD Dante/Nero vs Vergil are piss easy fights that are only a threat if you hold back to do wacky shit.
Fighting Rellana with just a simple Rapier and mastering her moves and choreography to beat her, however, is amazing. That fight is a masterpiece and one of the best in video games period, on every level - and its animation style (in regards to how you observe and dodge/punish it) pushes the boundaries of tactility in regards to game feel of video games.

>>716059002
>filename
aaand DS2fag himself has entered the thread, lmao

>>716057937
>Dark souls is an action rpg, but it is not a character action game
That's exactly what he's saying.

>>716058271
>Back then, Parrying and Positioning were key elements on winning a fight, and now its just rolling until the enemy finishes their combo attack.
Elden Ring has so many defensive options that you can beat the whole game and the DLC without even trying to block or dodge at all. You do not know what you are talking about.

>>716058982
Souls games are the natural evolution of ARPGs, Diablo and PoE are throwback games made for nostalgic autists that grew up on Blizzardslop.

>>716057637 (OP)
>mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter.
If he just wants to play dmc nothing is stopping him from playing dmc, too.

>>716057637 (OP)
The combat is great, because the enemies are very dynamic and fenerally dangerous. Unlike anemic DMC punching bags. Not that this fucking retard ever played DMC

Also Demon Sluls is babyshit easy and the worst From souls game.

>>716057637 (OP)
Yes. Soulikes have all been dog shit since Dark Souls 3. Both by Fromsoftware and indie clones.

>>716058578
Nobody has complained about DS1 runbacks since 2012 and Demon Souls bosses ARE shit.

>>716057637 (OP)
He's right, but
>style meter
really?

TOTAL MICK DEATH

At not one point is pressing the roll button at the right time the correct strategy here. So how exactly is DS2 not exactly the game he wants?

>>716058185
>They gradually shed most of the elements that made up that experience in favor of focusing entirely on action
The lack of a map in Dark Souls 1-3 makes exploration a critical part of the game. You could maybe argue something against Elden Ring for having a map, but the map is so huge that it justifies itself in a way that BotW failed to feel like nothing more than a repeated copypasta of locations and samey enemies on a large overworld.

The youtuber in the OP sounds like he wants to play Devil May Cry and Bayonetta instead of Dark Souls.

>>716059080
Are you even going to attempt to make an argument

>>716059054
pic related
DMC5 on DMD is less in depth in regards to 'playing well' than DaS3, and ER/Sekrio/SotE vastly vastlyyy outdo the DMC series in regards to this enemy complexity and interaction deal.

He is right about DS2 sucking and the series going downhill and never recovering.

>>716059116
>You do not know what you are talking about
The vast majority of the cunts who post in these threads have no idea what they're talking about.
>>716059113
He's also saying that in a negative connotation because he's a fucking retard. He's saying the enemies have become more akin to those in a character action game while gameplay remains more grounded in an arpg style. He's fucking retarded, and as I said in my initial post, a stupid fuck who refuses to do anything more than mash r1 and roll like every stupid piece of shit who parrots his fucking opinion.

>>716058271
>Back then, Parrying and Positioning were key elements on winning a fight, and now its just rolling until the enemy finishes their combo attack.
You retards never even played any of the games. You couldn't parry a single boss in Dark Souls 1 except Gwyn. You couldn't parry any boss in Demon's Souls at all (besides Old Monk if you can really count that as a boss). As of Elden Ring not only can you parry most regular enemies that have weapons, you can parry like half the boss roster, and there's several items with effects that trigger on riposte so you could even actually have something of a build centered around parrying that has more going on than just equipping a shield and a dagger.

>>716059469
Nice youtube screengrab

>>716059398
Plus the thing about the elden ring map is that it doesn't help for navigation of specific levels and is intentionally not very helpful in regards to verticality.

>>716059313
They really are
>phalanx-firebomb check
>tower knight-hit the leg
>armor spider-can you dodge a projectile check
>dragon god-you already know
>fools idol-you have to kill the summoner
>maneater-now there are 2!
>old monk-forced pvp/npc invader
>adjudicator-hit the weakpoint, then the glowing weakpoint
>old hero-blind
>stormruler
>leechmonger-the arena is the real bose
>filthy colosus-burn the flies
>garl vinland

Flamelurker, penetrator and king Alant are the only real bosses in demons souls

>>716059398
Dark Souls is what I wanted The Legend of Zelda to evolve into. Instead, BotW was the first Zelda game I DNF'd and I didn't bother buying Tears of the Kingdom.

>>716059471
He's wrong. DS2 is just better than DS1 and DeS other than its weaker presentation. DS3 is the only game From has made that exhibits any of the mechanical over simplification that people pretend applies to its entire catalog, and even then, it makes up for that to do a degree by being actually challenging, unlike the PS3 games.

>>716059746
what
why would I do that
DMC5 is an easy game, there's no reason Id be posting S for cred, when my point stands even without the screenshot
i even play with increased difficulty mods

I use my build to combine light and heavy attacks for the situation and enemy type. The leveled environments allows to me utilize movement and spacing to create chokepoints and drop attacks, environmental elements like water allow me to combine elemental damage types like lightning for massive damage. Not once did I use my iframes to overcome this deadly challenge. So how exactly is DS2 not precisely the game he says Souls is supposed to be?

>>716059398
>>716059758
You're missing the point in more ways than one. The point is that the game presented you with a world that was cohesive, which pulled you into the universe. The game invited you to think as though you were a real adventurer in a real fantasy world and rewarded you for doing so. Dark Souls 2 was somewhat open and non-linear but the overworld was a bunch of nonsense. Dark Souls 3 was totally linear. Elden Ring was the most open it's ever been, but the world was mostly templated and uninteresting.

>>716059978
>So how exactly is DS2 not precisely the game he says Souls is supposed to be?
Matosis is the same retard that refuses to turn off the lock on

>>716060097
Demons Souls doesn't have a cohesive world

>>716059407
Anyone who argues with DS2fag is a fool, more so than he himself

>>716060156
Go on

>>716060158
He's always been right about everything and no one can tell me what he's wrong about

>>716060097
DS1s and 3's "world" is one city and its nearby parks and slums.

>>716057637 (OP)
>jump cancelling
Soulslikes are nothing like DMC. Maybe someone can fuse them together successfully but I doubt it and I love them both.

>>716059002
>>716059978
It is pretty remarkable how, after having played through Dark Souls 2 and all DLCs a couple times, I never recognize any levels or enemies when I see footage of it. Truly it was one of the games of all time

Unironically playing the game wrong. If you use a guide or follow how other players do stuff, you’ll never know how useful shields are on weak enemies. Granted they are useless entirely on bosses but the game is meant to be near impossible.

he was right about everything

>>716060097
>Elden Ring was the most open it's ever been, but the world was mostly templated and uninteresting
I disagree, you're thinking of Breath of the Wild. There's enough diversity in assets, unit design, and large dungeons that make the asset flipping in Elden Ring a non-issue.

>>716060347
If you can't recognize the Iron Keep with all that lava, you never played the game.
You'd have an argument if it was one of the many featureless dungeons all the games have, but it isn't.

>>716057637 (OP)
I genuinely think elden ring did a lot of good to resolve this issue by giving you a choice between the traditional r1 spam and stance breaking. It also threw in one or two demons souls-ish bosses anyway (rykard and rinella).

>>716057637 (OP)
This has been debunked already

tl;dr

>>716060347
Because you're braindead? DS2 has the most variety of creative and unique environments in the series. Where all the other games are some cave or cathedral.

>>716060557
in case anyone like this anon hasnt noticed, From Software has achieved something I will refer to as "Animation Sublimation"
>they have perfected their understanding of motion and player reactivity to said motions to an artistic level that should be studied in art courses
While at a surface level it seems like they only differ on a superficial level, all those Elden Ring bosses differ due to a majestically wide difference between how their animation is handled.

Each one of them requires your brain and eyes to function in entirely different, yet harmonious patterns to be observed and interacted with, and just by modifying these animations, From can elegantly create new scenarios and 'moments' without resorting to gimmicks or feature creep. On some level, the art style of From games has become integral to the game design itself which is why so few games are capable of replicating them.

To put it bluntly, this "Animation Sublimation" is capable of allowing insane variety and depth to how a Boss is observed and dealt with just by visual meaning and change alone, including angles, poses, timings and spacing. I revere it with such depth that I'd place Froms art team as the best in the industry simply due to their transcendental understanding of the relation of gameplay and graphics not achieved anywhere else.

Kind of crazy how well these threads work. Probably points towards much of /v/ not only not playing the games they argue about, but they don't even watch the youtubers they argue about either.

>>716060990
cool, first time I see this pasta
is there a name for this type of writing, where one types a shitton of words but fails to actually say anything?

>>716060834
>Dark Souls 3 has a gimmick boss where you have to hit a specific part
Which one?

>>716059313
DeS has good bosses. Better than the shitty spastic anime like battles.

>>716060347
You couldn't even tell me what area of ds3 this is

>>716061314
what is being conveyed here

>>716061269
the skellington king guy

People who say there isnt much depth because you dont need to do more than roll + attack dont really understand video games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmg2aSCP3yI

>>716060557
Even this picture is wrong. The moonlight butterfly is an infamously terrible boss and the capra demon's arena is infamously annoying. Taurus demon's arena is there to force you to show you can dodge roll even though he doesn't like dodge rolling. He gives Ornstein and Smough's arena credit for having pillars but ignores that Maliketh's arena also has pillars; and Maliketh actually interacts with the pillars rather than them just being janky cover like in O&S. Also how is the slightly sloped roof in the bell gargoyles fight more meaningful than Malenia's arena being partially flooded; something that changes her elemental defenses depending on where you're standing?

This is also just cherrypicking. Margit's first arena is a trecherously thin strip of bridge and his second is full of craters. Godrick's and Mohg's arena's feature two vertically separate areas separated by stairs, the first of which you start on and are naturally going to play around, the latter of which you have to go to on your own. Rykard's boss fight features a giant moving pool of lava around the boss. The falling star beasts are typically found in large bowl shaped craters. The night calvary in the forbidden lands is found in fucked up terrain you can use to get the boss caught for a breather or to just run away. Most of the gargoyles are found in uncomfortably tight places and/or near long diagonal ramps. Piss Godfrey's/Gideon's arena has pillars for cover; very impactful in the latter fight. The leonne misbegotten's arena has giabt grave stones that can impede his movement but will be broken if hit by him. Dragons fought on every imaginable permutation of terrain.

>>716057637 (OP)
DMC has always been way more shallow than any Souls game, so Matthew has no grounds to stand on.

>>716061428
Wrong. A boss where you don't have to at least try to win is bad.

>>716057637 (OP)
We need the Ds3 chad to destroy this shit thread

>>716057637 (OP)
>while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter.
I was generally agreeing right until this point. All of these are fucking gay and he just wants to suck off DMC. Dork Souls is not that kind of game and it's not trying to be that.

>>716060990
tldr from can create variety in animations so good each boss ends up being really different and amazing, without needing gimmicks
and most games cant do even 1% of that without needing to switch everything up
explains why people love the reused bosses

>>716058578
>The reality is that the souslike fanbase was never in it for an experience that demanded even an iota of critical thinking, they just wanted a gimped action game because DMC or Ninja Gaiden were too inaccessible for them.
That's certainly not what I wanted. I've played DMC and NG. I found out about DaS1 back around when it released from threads on /v/. When I looked at the gameplay, it was something that I've really wanted in a video game so I got the game. It just really resonated with me. I feel like from 2 onwards it kinda lost it's soul though. I had a fantastic time with DeS afterwards and I fucking loved DaS1.

>>716062101
Plus it's not like From came up with the idea of reusing old bosses as elite enemies later in the game. Have these people not played fucking megaman? For the NES?

unironically stop replying the falseflag tranny shazam thread any time

>>716057637 (OP)
>Fromsoft should stop making things that people like because it doesn't fit my personal views
I think he was a drama queen whose presence has not been missed and will continue to not be missed.

>Play the game in a simplistic, boneheaded way
>Complain that the game is too simple and should return to square peg goes in square hole "puzzle" bosses.

>>716062512
>THE DEMON WAS DESTROYED
it's hard to believe some of these aren't memes in retrospect

>>716062653
Not everyone is a jeet

>>716060557
Elden Ring's field bosses fulfill all the arena gimmicks.
The Crucible Knight on the tight bridge in Nokron, for example.
As does someone like Rennala Phase 1.

>>716062617
How do you play Elden Ring in a non-simplistic way? The controls and actual mechanics have barely changed. Games like Khazan added basic combo paths to it and its much more reactive and proactive with ways to fight against enemies.

>>716060990
>yet harmonious patterns
HAHAHAHAHA
Elden Ring bosses have some of the most nonsensical momentum and behaviours in videogame history, surpassed only by Lies of Piss

>>716062258
2 is everything that DaS1 and DeS fags say they want out of souls games. It's the one where rolling is costly and frequently not the best option, it's the one where positioning matters most, it's the one where consumable items are genuinely important, it's the one where there's a bunch of weird borderline imsim elements like altering boss arenas, blasting open paths, destroying level hazards, closing and breaking doors, and distracting and scaring enemies. There's no logical way you can say, "I don't like Elden Ring, they focused too much on the core combat mechanics" and not prefer DS2 over DS1 and DeS.

>>716057637 (OP)
The Dark Souls 3 webmposter completely buttfucked this video

>>716057637 (OP)
>Which leaves you with rolling as your one and only reactive action.
In Elden Ring we have:
>roll
>jump
>backstep (which is just a roll if we're honest)
>block
>parry
>poise through (endure/stance/etc)
That's five or six options. Seems like they agreed that an overreliance on rolling wasn't ideal, so they changed it.

>>716062836
Step one to really getting good at elden ring is to learn enemies well enough to know where and how to move to punish enemies during their attacks rather than having to actively dodge or block everything.

>>716058578
>"runbacks"(aka the fucking game world)
You say that like exploring a level for the first time is the same experience of having to go through it again multiple times to fight the boss that killed you.

>>716058271
>The point is that every combat after DS3 is just rolling over and over
You can beat all the games with only rolling or only blocking.
You can beat Elden Ring without taking any defensive actions at all and just relying on buffs, regen and healing.

>>716063121
>Seems like they agreed that an overreliance on rolling wasn't ideal,
There was never such thing as overreliance on rolling. The whole video is wrong and from the point of view of a shitter

>>716057637 (OP)
I feel like requesting shit like juggling in "Souls" games is fundamentally retarded, so retarded in fact that it draws away from his other points which are sane and true.

It's entirely true that the combat in Souls is nothing remarkable. The core of the combat system is very simplistic and it is instead enhanced by the number of options the games give you in terms of builds, weapons and spells. I think this worked extremely well in DeS and DaS especially, where it started, and I also think that to some degree any RPG needs to be like this because it allows character building to matter instead of being all execution.

The complaint about excessive rolling is somewhat valid, because rolling is the default defensive action available to all builds, and if you don't build into defenses specifically it will be the main or only defensive option you have. So yeah, some builds will have no defensive options beyond just rolling and rolling and rolling. This wasn't a huge problem in games like DeS and DaS which were far more thought-out and methodical, but in ER, or in SotE specifically where they just push harder and harder with 72 hit boss combos + AoE sparkles spam that covers the screen it's becoming detrimental. They're using the same combat system with some minor additions while the boss design has changed entirely.

If they want to keep pushing with boss design in this direction I do think the games would heavily benefit from more options beyond just rolling on the defensive side. Here I think anything more build-specific would be a massive boon, it would be nice to be make characters that have more thematic and specific defensive tools available (right now a soldier with a straightsword, a fast DEXfag, a wizard and a priest all roll all the same). While there is a wealth of choice on the offensive side of character building, there's a great lack of it on the defenses.

>>716063121
>backstep
Do people actually use this?
It has worse iframes than just rolling backwards.
I only used it in Bloodborne on normal enemies beacuse some weapons had decent backstep -> r1/r2 attacks but not because it was optimal but because it was cool and did it more for style points.

Also don't forget that we got the deflect tear in Elden Ring so you can add that to the list

>>716063363
>It's entirely true that the combat in Souls is nothing remarkable. The core of the combat system is very simplistic
No, that's not true at all
>The complaint about excessive rolling is somewhat valid, because rolling is the default defensive action available to all builds
No it isn't
>and if you don't build into defenses specifically it will be the main or only defensive option you have.
Which option should you build into to have the ability to walk or press block?
>They're using the same combat system
Which is great
>there's a great lack of it on the defenses.
No there's not

>>716063338
DS3 rolling is legitimately too strong and fast and cheap (in terms of cost) compared to every other defensive option. Also too "required" given the amount of leftover bloodborne assets present. But it really is just DS3.

>>716057918
>thread is about dark souls and from software
>tranny, trannies, discord, trannies
Anon... can we talk about video games? Why are you thinking about trannie so often that they are the first thing you think about when people bring up From Software or game mechanics?

>>716063363
>DeS and DaS which were far more thought-out and methodical,
WRONG.

>>716063617
So much text and not a single argument. What's your point, crying like a petulant child because somebody else doesn't think Souls combat is the best thing since sliced bread?

>>716063479
Regular backstep is pretty dookie but quickstep/BHS are pretty good.

>>716062962
Consumables do not matter outside of Poison moss or grass for magic spam, you can sell everything else to Gavlan for souls and not lose anyting of value
>Inb4 lockstones/Brances of yore
Outright key items not considered by the game as such

>>716063479
I use it because the backstep attack has the largest AOE in Dane's Footwork because it's a roundhouse kick.

>>716061314
>The spectral steed is frightened
I got chills when that popped up

>>716063646
>DS3 rolling is legitimately too strong and fast and cheap (in terms of cost) compared to every other defensive option.
No it's not
>Also too "required" given the amount of leftover bloodborne assets present.
There's no Bloodborne "assets" that require dodging. Dark Souls 3 depowered dodging extensively in a game design where reaction dodging puts the player into a passive status rather than ready to attack like in Bloodborne, so those who complain about dodging just want to use it without the committment and punishment caused by its overuse

>>716057637 (OP)
He's right, Sekiro is what happens when they make the character capable of keeping up with the bosses and its fucking great.

>>716057637 (OP)
Yes. DS3 sucked.

Jumping is the strongest defensive option in Elden Ring and surge sprint is the strongest defensive option in Nightreign.

>>716063804
Yeah that's what I mean, some specific weapons have cool backstep movesets but as an actual defensive options vs rolling/blocking I have never seen it used

>>716063748
>and not a single argument
No need for it, you came up with completely unfounded and wrong statements

Simplicity isn't bad. Simple, elegant systems that work are harder to come up with than complex, unintuitive and bloated pieces of shit.

>>716061575
it's been years since I played ds3, but if I'm not mistaken it's down by the shortcut to the twin princes

If you don't like rolling, why don't you just use a shield or run away from the attacks?

>>716063965
My statements are clearly correct, because you are unable to counter them despite the fact that they make you cry.

>>716064014
That's not how it works, your completely arbitrary made up points are not valid because you get laughed at

>>716064014
>unable to counter them
Let me counter everything you say with the same level of "argument" you are using
>My statements are clearly correct, because you are unable to counter them despite the fact that they make you cry.
No, that's not true at all

>>716057637 (OP)
>in terms of actual complexity, there's not much going on
>there's not much depth, and that would be a problem if not for the fact that the series has increasingly leaned on its action elements more and more as time has gone by, while refusing to implement dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or a style meter
souls games are not trying to be devil may cry, and nobody would actually want them to be. his point was that fromsoft are "designing themselves into a corner" because each new game is going to be built on the mechanics established with demon's souls, without a whole lot of room for building upon that formula without becoming a "character action game" in the process.

he's mostly right, because elden ring was really just dark souls 3.5 with weapon archetypes that could take any number of weapon arts, as opposed to certain arts being attributed to certain weapons. I assume their next mainline title won't do much more either, and yet the question remains: who cares? people will still play it, even if it's a minor refinement on what already exists a.k.a. more of the same.

>>716057637 (OP)
>Except that the series has increasingly leaned on its action elements more and more as time has gone by, while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter.
Nice bait, but he never said this retarded shit

>>716057937
You’re right, it’s not a character action, but most of the boss fights have character action attacks, in fact they have more attacks and flourishes than most bosses in character action games

>>716064009
Shields drain all the stamina on blocks, and parrying is a broken lose it all or win it all mechanic, sprinting also doesn't work in DS3 onward because hollowed out corpses missing an arm have 360 tracking on everything

>>716058578
You mean the fanbase got infested by low attention faggots jumping on the souls bandwagon after ds3

>>716057637 (OP)
>dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter.
>even a simple style meter.
Opinion disregarded

ERfags would be filtered by Shrine of amana or Iron keep

>>716064364
>Shields drain all the stamina on blocks
The amount of stamina drained is dependant on the stability of the shield. Usually bigger shields have more stablity and thus eat less stamina on blocks.
>and parrying is a broken lose it all or win it all mechanic
What's wrong with a high risk, high reward mechanic? What is broken about it?
>sprinting also doesn't work in DS3 onward because hollowed out corpses missing an arm have 360 tracking on everything
This is not true, strafing and sprinting is one of the best defensive maneuvers in ER ever. You just need to know which attacks you have to strafe how.

>>716064576
I'm an ERfag and I played DaS2 on release, prepatch and shrine of amana did not filter me.
Iron keep was just poor man's sen's.

>>716064338
>but most of the boss fights have character action attacks,
No they don't. They have their attacks that are designed around the player mechanics. It's hilarious that this fucks up with yor head because you can't conceive more depth to facing an enemy than stringing juggleslop combos while keeping it permastunned
>>716064364
Skill issue

>>716064727
>designed around the player mechanics
Correct. the mechanic being to dodge 10 time to avoid 1 attack.

>>716061269
>>716061686
also the tree

>>716057637 (OP)
Git gud

>>716060242
Wydm go on? The levels are completely separate from on another, it’s nes tier of level selection down to the 2.1, 2,2, 2.3 categorization of the levels lmao

>>716063784
Branches are just key items but lockstones are legit consumables; none of them are mandatory and for most of the game you'll have to pick and choose which you want. Firebombs are important for safely detonating explosives and breaking walls. Defense boosting items are surprisingly effective. Repair powder actually has its uses, especially in a an exalted conqueror run.

>>716064830
Git gud

>>716060557
cherry picking pseud cant even be honest about the stuff he is cherry picking

>>716064830
>>716063878

>>716064364
have you seen this?
>>716064912

>>716063878
>No it's not
Yes it is. Blocking is mediocre and rolling is always extremely effective even when done purely reactively. Even end game bosses like twin princes, the demons, nameless king, gael, and SoC are just dodge, hit, dodge, hit, with no thought or skill required other than basic timing. Elden Ring fixed this by having enemies use variable length windups, lingering hitboxes, and combos that are too fast to dodge each individual blow in order to force you to actually have to pay attention and think.

>>716064364
>sprinting also doesn't work in DS3 onward because hollowed out corpses missing an arm have 360 tracking on everything
Stop locking on so much. If you want to run past the enemy, you need to run PAST him, not strafe around him in a big dumb circle.

>>716057637 (OP)
I think real problem is that the enemy design has limited depth and they're too incompetent to actually do anything about it beyond brute force fixes that totally break immersion ala reading inputs that make enemies look unnaturally robotic and other shit design like five minute combos and running away from the player. People bitch about the delayed attacks but I actually think that was one of the only things they did that wasn't terrible but its not enough. The other attempts at making combat more challenging and interesting makes the games worse not just from an aesthetic and immersion perspective but because its yet another retarded design that can be cheesed which renders the whole point of input reading null in the first place. The enemies don't even differentiate between what item or projectile is being used and whether its targeting them or not its so half assed.
That being said hes right about the singular way of avoiding damage, its always one thing thats always way better than any other option you're incentivized to do whether its parry or roll which is getting very tiresome in From games.

>>716057637 (OP)
Combat in Souls games is a solution to the puzzle presented by the game to the player. It's not about the moves your character can do, it's about what answers you have to the world, its enemies and landscapes. This means keeping the player moveset simple is the priority.

>>716062962
>2 is everything that DaS1 and DeS fags say they want out of souls games
I don't think so. There's certain aspects where it excelled but a lot of other areas where it just fucking sucked. I played it on release and bought it for ps3 and later when it released on PC. There's more than just the combat to take into account. It's the entire experience. I feel like it was lost from 2 onwards. Yui Tanimura, I feel, is one of the people to blame. Bloodborne recaptured the essence of what I liked about DeS and DaS1.

>>716064009
>why don't you just use a shield
This is fine, but using a shield against the hardest bosses and not general trash enemies requires heavy investment. You can invest in playing a shielded tank build and it works fine, which is good because this is an RPG and it should work, but if you don't want to play a tank then it's suddenly a lot less viable against aggressive bosses with fast combos since they will just nigh-instantly drain your stamina and wreck you instead.

So you can play a tank, or you can roll. Everyone can roll, but shields are only really good in shield-focused builds, they are not a generally viable defensive mechanic in the same way the roll which makes you invulnerable is. They don't NEED to be generally-viable, it's fine if shields are a tank build option, but then it would be nice for other kinds of builds to have other defensive options just how tanks currently have the shield, besides the eternal roll, of course.

>run away from the attacks
For some attacks this is simply not possible, because they are intentionally designed for this to be impossible. You cannot build a character that just runs away from attacks, you are simply not given the required movement speed to do so.

>>716065557
>wah wah wah the enemies don't just let me brainlessly R1 their butt cheeks

>>716065557
>The enemies don't even differentiate between what item or projectile is being used
They do that
Please refrain from posting further

>>716065654
Bloodborne is just DS3 with better art. Which is also the only thing DS2 is kinda bad at, aesthetics.

>>716065617
It used to be that way but that's becoming less and less true as time goes on and they make more games. The games are becoming less about the choices you made and the options you chose and more about plain execution and timing.

>>716065831
>Bloodborne is just DS3 with better art
It's really not

>>716065350
>Yes it is. Blocking is mediocre
No it's not. You are just a retard who believes blocking should work in complete isolation and simply allow you to sit and negate any kind of aggression instead of using it as the proper tool to manage and stand up to fights and cause stagger
>Even end game bosses like twin princes, the demons, nameless king, gael, and SoC are just dodge, hit, dodge, hit, with no thought or skill required other than basic timing.
You posted a series of bosses that cast multiple spells and have area of effect attacks, you are so full of shit

>>716064462
Exactly. Its not as though the people who enjoyed demons and dark 1 were secretly holding out hope for the games to become hyper focused on action.

>>716057637 (OP)
He was right, they had no way of increasing difficulty for the player other than making even longer and faster combo's with more variables, all designed not to give you a challenging but fun fight but specifically just to trick you and get you killed. They HAVE to keep pushing soulsborne vets have been playing their games for years and constantly call them boring, so they develop it even further to the point the main developers can't even beat the game themselves, yet they're still designing the enemies, the combat, and the bosses. They have 0 clue what they're doing now.

>>716066012
Who're you to speak for me?
I never enjoyed the garbage combat of DeS or DS1 and I certainly wasn't in it for the empty corridors either

>>716065689
>This is fine, but using a shield against the hardest bosses and not general trash enemies requires heavy investment.
It doesn't
>You can invest in playing a shielded tank build and it works fine, which is good because this is an RPG and it should work, but if you don't want to play a tank then it's suddenly a lot less viable against aggressive bosses with fast combos since they will just nigh-instantly drain your stamina and wreck you instead.
There's no such thing as "shield tank build"
You either get the strength to wield a good shield or not
>Everyone can roll
Which achieves nothing
>You cannot build a character that just runs away from attacks
You don't need to "build anything"
Yes you can run from attacks

>>716066159
what aspect of the games did you enjoy then?

>>716063121
Anon, have you ever jumped to avoid an attack in all the time you've played Elden Ring?

>>716065967
It really is.
>very linear
>gameplay focuses almost entirely around screechy spammy enemies and a very fast and strong universal defensive option
>non-melee builds are shitty memes
>armor doesn't matter and poise does not exist

>>716065734
>chasing elden beast for five minutes is peak design
Yeah its such a thrilling challenge.
>>716065771
>they do that, theres definitely not webms that have been posted countless times of enemies rolling around like retards from people casting spells into a wall and crucible knights rushing the player for attempting to drink an empty estus flask
But there has been.

>>716066158
>they had no way of increasing difficulty for the player other than making even longer and faster combo's with more variables
They did and this is why 'muh enemy placement' fags got filtered so hard by DS2

>>716065169
If Malekith couldn't swing through pillars it might mean something, but its not really a mechanic in his fight

>>716066159
>I hated those games and kept playing them hoping they'd become action games and I represent the majority of that demographic
Thanks for clearing that up.

>>716059978
>he didn't summon the other two npcs to engage in 3v3 kino
ngmi

>>716066415
the clown car fiesta rooms aren't any better
>bro what if we put an item at the end of a room for the 10000000th time with dudes 30 feet in the air, who have been waiting for years to gank someone
yawn, fromsoft games are so cliche at this point i expect every cliff corner to have a nigger scripted to use his push attack

>>716057637 (OP)
ironically nightreign rewards you for not just rolling with guardian and executor, they just don't do it enough

>>716057918
ESL humiliation ritual dilate you're brown

>>716066612
and this is who from makes games for now. This is why their games are just pressing the roll button at the right time

>>716066000
>You posted a series of bosses that cast multiple spells and have area of effect attacks
Which you can just reactively roll through like it's nothing. I guess with Gael's lightning you have to remember not to stand where the red skulls land, but that's hardy a challenge. DS3 has one actually interesting boss to fight, and that's Friede.

>>716066326
The modularity of the character building and more or less being AC games in a high fantasy setting with a non mission based progression.
>>716066507
I did not hate the games and yes, I do represent the majority of the demographics as well.
The fuck are you going to do about it?

>>716057637 (OP)
You can beat Elden Ring without ever pressing the roll button. It's just that retards on /v/ refuse to engage with the dozens of other mechanics because they're bad at video games and they're stuck in playing it the exact same as Dark Souls 1 (rolling until the boss has an opening and then spamming R1). They simply refuse to
>use defensive buffs to make themselves able to facetank and trade blows with the boss
>abuse the poise system to stunlock bosses
>take advantage of the vastly improved shields to just block attacks
>use other dodging options like jumping and crouching
>parry
>use ashes of war
>level their fucking vigor
They bitch about how bosses will do a 15 hit combo with no openings, and then they'll post gameplay of a retarded ape rolling directly backwards from a boss as if the games didn't deliberately try to teach you NOT TO FUCKING DO THAT as far back as Dark Souls 1 (let alone Bloodborne where half of the bosses in the game are designed specifically to punish you for backing off). I've seen fuckers claim that armor in Elden Ring is useless despite the fact that you can trivially reach 80+% DR and poise is stronger than it's been in any Souls game besides DS1. And it doesn't matter how many people post no dodge playthroughs, webms of people trivially staggering bosses and interrupting their attack strings, or showcases of how shield-poke builds are the game's easy mode. Because they just want a reason to bitch, probably to excuse being bad at making builds.

Elden Ring is not DMC. It's not a character action game. It's an action RPG where you have MANY options to approach fights other than dodge-spamming, and some fights are intentionally designed to be more punishing or difficult for certain builds (as it should be in an RPG). A comparison to Monster Hunter is better than to Bayonetta.

>>716066397
Your shitposting webms literally prove nothing but your own ignorance and inability to discuss things in earnest

>>716066000
>>716064912
Based ds3 webmro

>>716066770
>and then they'll post gameplay of a retarded ape rolling directly backwards from a boss as if the games didn't deliberately try to teach you NOT TO FUCKING DO THAT
Why would a game punish you for using your roll to avoid attacks instead of rolling directly into them? That's retarded design and discourages using movement, spacing, or positioning.

>>716057637 (OP)
All I know is that I play game, it fun.

>>716066612
sure thing 'muh enemy placement' fag lol
see
>>716059372

>>716066905
>It's not movement, spacing or positioning if it's not the direction I like!

honk honk I like to parry shit 2bh

>>716057937
Matt has beaten DMC1 on DMD taking no damage and Rainbow V'd Viewtiful Joe on Ultra V Rated. He is clearly significantly better at games than most people.

>>716057637 (OP)
>UHM THE GAME DOESN'T HAVE A STYLE METER LIKE MY FAVORITE CUHHHHHHHHHRAAAAAAAZZZZYYY SERIES SO THEREFORE IT IS BAD
This guy is a fucktard.

>>716067045
Using your iframes is the opposite of positioning.

>>716066762
>Which you can just reactively roll through like it's nothing
No you can't, your placement is every bit as important actually. You are full of shit

>>716066245
>There's no such thing as "shield tank build"
A strength build that just equips a greatshield is far less capable of tanking than one that also swaps to complementary talismans and uses the deflect physick tear, Malenia's rune, a shieldpoke weapon, and a shield buff. Builds are more than just the stats you put levels into.

>>716066736
It's a game where it functions best with 1v1 fights, DS2 is the contrarian/troll's choice, no one actually likes DS2. You are fighting the camera and level design in DS2 than you are fighting enemies.

>>716066764
>I didn't hate the games I just didn't like the gameplay or the world design and most people didn't back then
Thanks for your anecdote.
>>716066853
>the evidence that proves what you said is true is actually you attempting to argue in bad faith
lmao

>>716067021
Why did you reply to me when your comment wasn't related?

>>716057637 (OP)
Elden Ring is as different from DS3 as DS3 is different from DS1, "people" who don't immediately understand this don't have opinions worth hearing.

I'm not talking about Matt by the way, I'm talking about OP.

>>716058578
Absolute trvth nvke. Souls games quickly became "action games for morons" after the success of Artorias of the Abyss.

>>716057637 (OP)
you should've grown out of making contrarian your only personality feature when you were 12 anon

>>716067113
>It's not positioning if it doesn't happen in the specific way I like
You literally get punished for moving in the wrong position and get rewarded for moving a more advantageous position, it is positioning no matter how much you bitch and whine about i-frames, might as well say that fighting games don't have positioning because they consistently use i-frames to enforce that, you're a fucking clown

>>716066397
>one boss is the whole game
Retard. Also they patched torrent into the fight a whole fucking year ago.

>>716058271
>The point is that every combat after DS3 is just rolling over and over
No it's not, you fags keep outing yourselves as not understanding the games you're (very poorly) attempting to criticize.

>juggling
>style meter
Please kill yourself.

>>716067143
>It's a game where it functions best with 1v1 fights
No it doesn't. 1v1 fights are simplistic and one dimensional. With the only gameplay being pressing the roll button at the right time. Gank fights are what encourage tactics, item usage, weapon type, movement, enemy prioritization, positioning, strategy, and punish stupid mistakes. The games are clearly designed around fighting multiple opponents, otherwise aoe spells wouldn't even be a thing, and weapons like the broadsword which are effective because they swing in a wide arc wouldn't even matter.

pee pee poo poo like I said parrying is gud

>>716064912
Riveting gameplay.

>>716067394
It really is, if you aren't right next to the boss rolling, you're far enough away that running is the best choice or you simply risk a jump because the game is schizo when it decides what you can jump over.

>>716067328
Good fighting games have very little iframes on anything and you get murdered for your iframe move being anticipated. Stop playing MvC sloppa.

>>716067439
You say a lot of words when you could simple say "kiting"
you aren't smart

>>716067328
>it's positioning if i completely redefine the meaning of the word to mean positioning my roll into an enemy's attack

>>716067142
No it isn't. In fact you can make a shield build that does not use any of those

>>716066770
And the funny thing is that you absolutely CAN just play the game as a naked dudge with a big stick rolling through everything, it just actually requires skill and practice now.

>>716067197
You are arguing in bad faith, you cannot argue in good faith because you know you're full of shit so you hide behind shitposts that make no logical sense.
You have zero fucking evidence of your claims outside of webms that you insist on reposting for years that do not actually explain anything about how the game works.

>>716067498
>It really is
It really is not, your inability to use nothing more than roll and r1 does not equate to limiting yourself roll and r1 being the best strategy.

>>716057637 (OP)
He's right. Souls were better when they focused on dungeon crawling since they are an evolution of King's Field. FROM can make good action games like Sekiro and Armored Core, Souls and Elden Ring is not one of them.

>>716067530
>Good fighting games
Such as?
>Stop playing MvC sloppa.
I don't play Crapcom games outside of Vsav, and even there I'd still take MvC over Sleep Fighters

just learn to parry and most of your problems will be addressed. what you can't parry, block. what you can't block, dodge. if you get hit, it's not the end of the world. try, try again.

>>716066905
Most attacks in Elden Ring can be strafed, ducked, or jumped, which all have less recovery and give you more chance to counter than rolling. That was my entire fucking point. I was saying people are roll-spamming cowards that don't consider positioning when they dodge. If you're rolling AWAY from a boss you're giving them the chance to pursue you, rather than giving yourself the chance to counter them (i.e. you leave the distance where YOU can fight but the boss still can). That's the lesson that ALL THE GAMES try to teach you. Rolling directly away is a panic response because you're scared of the boss and its attacks, and the game punishes you for that by letting the combo continue because you're not forcing the boss to stop.

This is why Gascoigne, the first mandatory boss in Bloodborne, has the majority of his moves designed to follow-up and hit you if you dodged backwards rather than towards him or to the sides. He does catches with his axe and fires his shotgun at a pace where it's really hard to dodge if you went away from him, but you'll be POSITIONED in a way where he can't hit you if you went close to him. Bloodborne's dodge system and the rally system are designed to encourage you to be aggressive and go after the boss rather than to passively wait for an opening to attack by spamming dodges. Which even Dark Souls wasn't designed to encourage, but people still do for some reason.

>>716066348
Yes, all the time. I have hundreds of hours in Elden Ring so I've learned some of the intended dodge strategies.

>>716067114
Placement doesn't matter at all in DS3. Every attack in that webm can be dodged through at any angle, and very reactively. The wind ups are all the same length and the attacks are on a simple tempo, making it extra easy.

>>716058468
Proportion of those components -- the amount of time you spend exploring without ambush, the amount of times you retry boss because one shot area of effect attack etc.
Also
> more of the same with a different coat of paint
isn't worse than what we have, which is
> less cohesive design but more le difficult boss fights git gut
>>716059054
> Emergent gameplay
This isn't "immersive sim" (genre which has 0 games because ya'll call FPS/RPG immersive sims) thread, but seriously
Rellana isn't much of a problem, the problem is that ER has like 50% or more of shitty bosses
>>716059641
I agree with that anon but it's not parrying it's blocking, also parrying is bad in ER because while it's available for many bosses it does poise damage so value of parrying into critical is low, you'd rather jump attack with two curved swords
>>716060990
Same as "immersive sim" guy, playing games that don't exist
also, gimmicks > animations, latter has movie-game flavour

>>716067593
There's no redefining anything, positioning is positioning, whether you do it through walking, running, jumping or use of i-frames it's still fundamentally positioning, which is about moving your characters in an advantageous spot, how that happens is irrelevant

>>716066770
>with the dozens of other mechanics
None of which is mechanically interesting or deep.

>>716067592
And you say nothing other than "because i say so" without anything to back it up.
>"you're fighting the level design"
I call that good game design. It's infinitely more engaging than fighting some anime spaz in a wide open circular arena who has aimbot tracking and one shots you if you dont press the roll button at the right time. DS2 made the game more challenging in a more honest and fundamental level than just making enemies with longer and faster combos.

>>716063363
various builds don't matter because you max damage, reach (spear vs sword) is invalid because boss mobility and switching for axe/hammer for poise dmg doesn't $
>>716065169
>>716061757
> Maliketh actually interacts with the pillars rather than them just being janky cover like in O&S
a) O&S pillars are breakable
b) maliketh positions himself away on top of them which is not fun and doesn't do anything for a player
> Margit's first arena is a trecherously thin strip of bridge and
worst experience of ER, in DS1 both taurus demon and you can fall, but margit cannot
other bosses are on open areas so it's some nuance to repositioning but nothing as daring as DS1

>>716067114
You're literally just tanking hits, the "gameplay" being showcased here consists of dumping 600 points into vitality and vigor

Also side note how do you get your webms to fit into the 4MB limit without fucking the bitrate/resolution/framerate?

>>716059054
>as Souls uses its enemies to create Emergent gameplay
You have no idea what emergent gameplay means.

>>716067936
$ sn't always help because certain attacks have bonus poise
i've saved my reply in nano without word wrap

>>716067704
SamSho 1-5

>>716067856
I thoroughly enjoy making a jacked beeflord that can facetank a boss. You might be a little bitch, but some people actually like RPG mechanics in their RPGs.

>>716067828
Nobody thinks about spacing as spacing your body into an enemy's attack. That's retarded.

>>716067971
you need to fuck with the CRF constant rate factor of your webm during encoding. also multipass is good as well.

>>716068092
>SamSho
>Good games
The worst part is that you might even be serious about that

>>716067602
Yeah and it'll be dogshit. Just like you could make a "strength build" that only has 20 strength and twohands a greathammer. Meeting the requirements for a weapon is not the same as properly investing to use it as effectively as possible.

>>716068095
The only Souls game with rpg mechanics worth a shit is Demons.

>>716067803
>Placement doesn't matter at all in DS3.
Yes it does. It doesn't matter how much you try to lie. You picked a list of bosses with each and every one of them casting spells and using some kind of AoEs in several of their attack because you are full of shit.

I don't really care for what he says about rolling, but NO ONE here can deny that Souls did in fact lean harder into the direction of more action. That alone sucks, as I don't have a problem with the fighting and grandiosity of fights in Souls, but I do value the slower exploration and tightly condensed world. I didn't get much out of that with Elden Ring and I don't think it's just cuz I've played previous Souls games, it just never threw any seriously crazy punches that weren't a hard fight. I wish the games could recapture that fish-out-of-water real sense of exploration, that's the biggest problem in my opinion. Regardless of how well the fighting is mechanically implemented, I'm just bummed that the exploration and wonder is taking a backseat to begin with.

>>716068284
I am in fact very serious.

>>716068095
You're just a casual idiot who doesn't play action games or RPGs, since Souls does both poorly and it's not an RPG in the first place ever. The RPG elements also make the series a complete and utter joke yet you still want to pretend it's difficult for some reason.

>>716067337
>its just one boss
Its not retard, off the top of my head astel, dragons, maliketh as well as several enemies who either run away or force you to play simon says pressing one button multiple times while they flail about for most of the fight. Patience being the sole challenge of these fights is retarded and you implicitly understand this which is why you responded with a strawman argument instead of defending the design directly.
>just wait 2 years after the games release for them to make the last boss less tedious
lol, lmao even

>>716068156
>Nobody thinks about spacing as spacing your body into an enemy's attack
Outside of this being a retarded statement it's also a retarded claim, you don't speak for anyone and decades of games prove you wrong

>>716068290
>Yeah and it'll be dogshit.
No it will be great, better even since you can actually buff for some damage. If you are too brainrotted to use shields with anything but some broken deflectslop setup that's on you

>>716057637 (OP)
The simplicity of this franchise's combat has always been among its biggest strengths. Dad gamers hate complex and demanding gameplay.

>>716057637 (OP)
The combat is or at least was exactly what it needed to be, low fantasy grounded rpg action combat with a dose of clunky if you change it too much it will no longer be souls

>>716068480
>decades of games prove you wrong
No they dont. Spacing means creating space. It's literally in the definition. Rolling into an attack is the opposite of creating space.

>>716068459
I play both and I specifically enjoy Souls because it has solid mechanics for both action and RPG without neglecting either. It's fine to not like the game, but don't come up with elaborate and incorrect excuses for why you don't like it.
>The RPG elements also make the series a complete and utter joke yet you still want to pretend it's difficult for some reason.
I didn't pretend at all it was difficult. I made a point of saying that it's honestly not too hard to make a good build. People on /v/ are just really shit at games and always blame the game when they are.

>>716068338
Nah. That's only true if you willfully ignore half of the RPG mechanics in the games and pretend they don't exist for some reason.

>>716067624
>its bad faith to say truthful things about the game
>you have zero evidence except for actual literal videos of what you described
Yes I understand anything that makes the game look bad is automatically bad faith and these things should never be criticized, they should add even more elements that make enemies behave like blatant automatons that can be easily cheesed due to their predictable behavior.
We wouldn't want the enemies to pose an actual lively challenge after all, better they be repetitive predictable flow chart fights with no surprises or dynamicsim.

>>716059054
>is more fun and unique/in depth/different than any permutation of DMC5 bosses and characters when it comes to the depth of the interaction and conflict
What a stupid post. All the bosses in DMC work differently. Beowulf is completely interruptible if you hit his eye. Malphas is essentially two separate enemies stuck together which can and have to be targeted separately. Bosses like Credo and Cavaliere are heavily focused on being able to block. Vergil is based around you punishing him and is fully juggable in 5. Cerberus and Nevan have armor that needs to be stripped of, each in their own way with different results. Agni & Rudra is a double boss battle where the bosses can kill each other and you can disarm both of them, and they have a phase 2 you can skip. Even Goliath who's pretty straightforward plays very different simply by having long combos with tied hyperarmor. Interaction isn't an afterthought in DMC. All the bosses have you doing different things. Boot up DMC5 right now and fight Cavaliere. I can parry him, break his shield instantly with specific attacks, ignore it completely with unparryable attacks, set bombs on him through his shield, bring it down slowly through ranged attacks, tank through DT or other methods, dodge, use dodge attacks, stun him, do a grab whenever he's staggered, and so and so on. And I can do most of those things in the span of a couple minutes. And if I choose another boss I'll be able to do different things with them.
You can't work around Souls bosses in that way.

>>716068753
>Spacing means creating space
No you fucking retard, spacing means properly evaluating your effective range and position, it has nothing to do with "creating space" whatsoever.

>>716068382
>but NO ONE here can deny that Souls did in fact lean harder into the direction of more action.
What the actual fuck does that even mean?

>>716068948
I'm actually not even trying to be mean, but are you retarded? What do you not understand about that sentence?

>>716068887
>You can't work around Souls bosses in that way.
No, Souls games have good combat and don't need gimmicky mechanics external to the combat systems to define their boss roster to give them any semblance of uniqueness and make them work

>>716068912
No, that's exactly what it means. You're retarded.

>>716068862
>they should add even more elements that make enemies behave like blatant automatons that can be easily cheesed due to their predictable behavior.
All PVE is like that.
The Souls games were even worse as enemies did not react to anything and literally died in seconds trying to facetank you fire spray, fireballs, dark beads or whatever, you didn't even have to learn a "predictable" behaviour, in fact they gave specific reactions to ER enemies precisely to make them a bit of a threat for a change, just like any action game ever.
Do you also whine about Ninja Gaiden enemies reading your inputs and killing you with OHK grabs?
Do you whine about Virgil no selling your E&I?
No you don't, because you're a sour bitch with a bad case of double standards.

>>716069084
>What do you not understand about that sentence?
I don't understand what the fuck it does mean? How are they more action? You still do the same thing

>>716068603
What damage will you be doing when you're burning way more stamina per block, aren't shieldpoking, have to stop blocking to heal from elemental chip damage, and aren't shithousing the boss with buffed guard counters?
>If you are too brainrotted to use shields with anything but some broken deflectslop setup that's on you
Just using a shield and using it smartly is not the same as making a shield build. Both are possible. You said there was no such thing as a "shield tanking build", now you're decrying a "broken deflectslop setup". I thought it didn't exist?

>>716069110
No, Souls has very shallow combat for stupid people who can't play real action games and need terrible RPG elements to hold their hand.

>>716068762
>item management gone
>durability management gone
>tightly designed levels with intricate rules (fuck you world tendency was amazing idea) gone
>rpg style bosses gone
Newer souls games are just as much of an rpgs as nugow or ubishit open world sloppa.

>>716069202
There's more of an emphasis on boss fights and combat than the previous games.

>>716069231
Ah yes, the "real action games" for real hardcore gaymers such as myself...

>>716069202
There's clearly a bigger focus on boss fights than previous games. The "linear boss rush meme" became true. Something like Sen's Fortress with a big emphasis on encounters with clever enemy placement, stage hazards and traps, is why people liked the dungeon crawling aspect of these games.

>>716059002
DELETE THIS VIDEO IMMEDIATELY! DS2 IS LE BAD BECAUSE...BECAUSE IT JUST IS OKAY!

>>716069220
Impressive, you are so retarded you can't conceieve using shields as anything other than standing still and poking

>>716060347
I recognize this after only playing it twice. You might have long term memory issues.

>>716069393
What do you think the older games were about, managing a farm?

>>716069582
Nu-GoW is shit precisely because the lead gameplay designer is an idiot who wanted took a massive inspiration from Souls/Nioh in the combat department when GoW already had its own brand of unique gameplay. FROMdrones don't even realize they are destroying the industry with their slop FROM puts out.

>>716069887
DeS was about exploration and dungeon crawling in its tabletop sense. DS, namely expansion, is where it all went to shit.

>>716069582
someone should make a comic where the demon is like
>psst, hey kid, this is getting kinda awkward, say your line already!

>>716069393
As opposed to the dating sim elements of Demon's Souls?
>>716069720
>There's clearly a bigger focus on boss fights than previous games.
No
>The "linear boss rush meme" became true.
This series started as 5 corridors
>Something like Sen's Fortress with a big emphasis on encounters with clever enemy placement, stage hazards and traps, is why people liked the dungeon crawling aspect of these games.
Retarded buzzwords, my favourite dungeon crawling area is the hills in Ashes of Ariandel because there's many ambushing melee and ranged enemies and quite a few traps

>>716066159
We all know you’re a tourist
Lmao

>>716069324
>item management gone
There is absolutely still item management. In fact, I'd say Elden Ring has the best item management because consumables are WAY stronger in it than in any other game.
>durability management gone
Durability is gone and I'm actually in agreement that it sucks. But the only game in which it ACTUALLY mattered was Dark Souls 2, and people relentlessly bitched about it in that game. In the other games with it it's basically just a tiny, meaningless tax you pay every few hours when you remember to hit the repair menu. You never thought about durability in Dark Souls 1 or Bloodborne.
>tightly designed levels with intricate rules (fuck you world tendency was amazing idea) gone
The legacy dungeons and some of the better side dungeons are some of the most intricately designed levels they have. Stuff like the hero graves and some of the catacombs (like the trap chest one, the one with the identical loops, spooky basilisk statue crypt, etc.) I would, of course, like there to be more but Elden Ring has a lot of them.
>rpg style bosses gone
A lot of bosses still have big RPG gimmicks (i.e. massive elemental weaknesses, specific items that fuck them up, or secret weak spots). In fact, I think almost every enemy in the game actually does have a weak spot (for headshots) and an elemental weakness. There's fewer "gimmick" bosses but that's because people constantly bitch about stuff like Ancient Wyvern in Dark Souls 3, which is literally just a boss where the gimmick is you're fighting his arena instead of him. I personally think it's a cool fight, but it's like durability where a lot of people just hate it.

>>716069172
>the souls games have even more of the elements you criticize where enemies ignore all context and behave like retarded robots therefore you can't critique the fact that their attempts to make fights more difficult is just more highly predictable easily defeated behavior
You're making a lot of sense.
>do you complain about ninja gaidens enemy grabs that actively punish you for standing in one place
I knew you were retarded but holy shit, how the fuck can you not see the difference between these things?
I never once made an enemy commit suicide by jumping to his death by spamming projectiles in a random direction like I have in dark souls 3 and elden ring. Nor have I ever pressed a button that instantly caused an enemy to do an easily dodged attack that left him vulnerable letting me easily kill him by repeatedly looping his AI routine like I have in elden ring.
That you cannot detect any difference between the enemy AI in these games is honestly incredible, I'm surprised you have enough intelligence to form coherent sentences. Good on you for punching above your IQ retard-kun.

>>716070045
DeS, the game where you fight your way through combat encounters in linear levels to reach bosses at the end? That game wasn't about combat and boss fights?

The only problem with the new entries is a lack of original design. There’s nothing really unique anymore in the new souls games. It isn’t that the combat is so terrible, it’s that it isn’t hour 4,874 you have been playing that game. They just need a good director, something Final Fantasy is figuring out

>>716070198
>I never once made an enemy commit suicide by jumping to his death by spamming projectiles in a random direction like I have in dark souls 3 and elden ring.
That would require other games to have enemies that react to your projectiles at all

>>716067114
This boss is such dogshit

>>716070427
>it’s
>autocorrect changes to isn’t

I swear google is fucking retarded

>>716069964
Old GoW was garbage as well, largely because it was poorly aping DMC, which was the "fromslop" of its time too

>>716069964
Old God of War combat was shit before and still is. Difference is that they took too much inspiration from TLOU rather than souls now.

>>716060990
This is just an AI generated way of justifying attack animations that are deliberately breaking the rules of physics to deceive the player as to when an attack will land.

>>716069868
I don't even know what you're trying to argue for at this point. Shields are a useful tool available to any build; there are items and effects to make them even more effective. If you use those items and effects, you can have a build focused on shield tanking. That's what builds are, using complementary stats and items to achieve a particular style of play.

>>716070129
>Hills of ashes of ariandel
>Traps
Literaly only one piece of terrain that will collapse you into an arena with 3 big dudes and even then only if you're braindamaged, it's also stupidly easy to thin the herd one by one, there isn't a single encounter where one easy to make mistake will send you back to the starting point.
Meanwhile a single bad roll or move will fuck you in Sens

>>716068353
There isn't a single attack from twin princes you can't reactively dodge through in any direction. Though admittedly, you do need to at least be good at listening to sound cues.

>>716070129
>No
Yeah, I'm sure the shitty MMO style of design in ER's terrible overworld isn't focused on boss fights which is why they added the Stake of Maria.
>This series started as 5 corridors
Yes, DeS has great level design. ER doesn't.
>Retarded buzzwords
>hills in Ashes of Ariandel because there's many ambushing melee and ranged enemies and quite a few traps
None of this is true.

>>716070573
Not at all. Greek God has a great grapple system that FROM wishes they could implement in their shallow shit where they can't even program correct launch animations that aren't canned.

>>716068471
Astel teleports very infrequently, dragons barely move. And while Maliketh jumps around, he will always come back to you. None of these bosses "flail" or have any even remotely fast combos.

I didn't defend elden beast because that was legitimately bad. But now it's fixed.

>>716070718
>Literaly only one piece of terrain
And the javelins
And the wolves
And the firebreathers
In fact I have found it way harder than Sen's fortress
It doesn't matter what is in game because you can always downplay anything to fit your retarded claim that Souls games now have no levels because you are disingenuous

>>716070829
Any individual ER legacy dungeon has better level design than all of demon souls.

>>716070916
Yeah, so great it crashed and burned lmao, get that button mashing QTE ridden shit out of here son

>>716061757
>He gives Ornstein and Smough's arena credit for having pillars
where is ornstein & smough in >>716060557? how did you mistake gwyndolin for them when it says the boss name at the bottom

>>716069887
>>716070129
Exploration.

Boss fights and difficult encounters are of course an integral part of Souls games, but they lose their value and punch when they're to be expected every step of the way. Every fucking boss in Elden Ring has the same boring big empty room to fight in, and there's even a special checkpoint MADE for retrying a fight immediately, eliminating runbacks. With the long drawn-out combos, there's obviously an emphasis on lethal boss fights you have to practice against.

>>716062512
Yeah, looks good. Fuck I love Demon's Souls, maximum comfy.

>>716070714
>If you use those items and effects, you can have a build focused on shield tanking.
But you don't need it and is in fact beneficial to use movement and proper stamina recovery to avoid them, which makes your claim that blocking "needs" builds retarded

>>716071038
Stormveil is good. That's about it.

>>716071148
>Every fucking boss in Elden Ring has the same boring big empty room to fight in
Why do you insist on lying through your teeth so much, are you really that bitter that ER memory wiped the mediocre souls game off the face of the earth?

>>716071081
>crashed and burned
GoW3 being the best selling action game of all time.

>>716062512
>filtering fags and women who play ranged from a proper experience
kino

>>716071236
What unique fights in ER take place in a environment that plays differently?

>>716070470
And what's stopping from from putting auto block AI on their enemies instead of dodging side to side so you can go into a rhythm of hitting them with arrows as they endlessly dodge in a extremely predictable pattern until they die
Rhetorical question, (you), the typical soulslike fan prefers enemies who can be forced into a loop the player dictates so they can be easily defeated so there's no reason for them to do anything different.
You can rest easy knowing I'm the minority, you'll get to keep fighting enemies who you can command at will to behave like complete morons by whipping out empty estus flasks and shooting with arrows as they dodge right into your shots just the way you like it.

>>716071294
Lmao, DMCV alone outsold it so much it's not even fun, get your head out your ass

>>716071148
>Exploration.
What of it?
>Every fucking boss in Elden Ring has the same boring big empty room to fight in
False

>>716057937
>Guy is a retarded nigger like every faggot fucking eceleb spewing their shitty opinions for troglodytes on /v/ to parrot ad nauseam.
spbp

>>716070615
>took too much inspiration from TLOU
Nope. Jason McDonald calls Souls/Nioh games of the century.

>>716071008
>Javelins
Easiest projectile attack to dodge in any of their games, they should never hit you unless they blindside you(somehow)
>Wolves
>Outside of the first stretch of the DLC
Never gave me trouble even on SL1
>Fire breathers
Easy to sprint behind them or bait their fire so you can score hits on them
A better argument for difficulty of the zone would be torch bearers that flail their sword around, they will actually murder you if you don't pay attention

>>716060558
NTA but you're still missing the point, the legacy dungeons are the best part of Elden Ring yet account for only a small part of its overall content, which largely consists of copy paste minor dungeons with copy paste rooms and copy paste bosses, the existence of which actively detracts from the experience and makes the game world feel artificial.

>>716071236
The only bosses I remember having an interesting environment were the Tree Sentinel, Tibia Mariner fights and the fire giant. They weren't even interesting environments, it's just that they at least weren't on a big empty round disc, or in a big empty box.

There's nothing remotely close to how cool, shocking, and impression-leaving of a moment something like the Capra Demon fight in DS1 was.

>>716071186
I never said it needs a build to be usable at all, just that you can do a build and it will be better at blocking than a build that just meets the requirements for a shield and doesn't do anything else to invest into the playstyle.
Awful lot of stamina you've got there for a build that supposedly isn't a shield tanking build by the way. A lot more than I'd see invested on any typical strength build, let alone one just using a straight sword. Could you perhaps have...made a shield tanking build? The shield tanking build you said didn't exist because it was just meeting the requirements for a shield?

>>716071510
He objectively used TLOU gameplay of QTEs instead of using the games that he claimed to be inspired by.

>>716071421
That plays differently from what exactly?
Margit plays nothing like Rykard, who plays nothing like Radahn who also plays nothing like Maliketh.
The dragon soldier in the rot swamp has its unique platform layout unlike the one in Nokstella, the fucking happy hyppo plays nothing like the death knights in the catacombs or Midra despite having similar rectangular arenas.
I could go on but you'll obviously deny all of this.
>>716071723
>There's nothing remotely close to how cool, shocking, and impression-leaving of a moment something like the Capra Demon fight in DS1 was.
There's nothing cool, shocking or impression leaving in Capra Demon's fight either, nevermind of ER quite literally has a reenactment of that specific boss too in the Albinauric village, except you start up the stairs in that case.

>>716060558
No, I'm thinking of Elden Ring. The game where every region has biomes that play exactly the same. Where enemies all have the same exact braindead AI. Where the vast majority of locations are just copypasted caves/catacombs/ruins/graves #282827

>>716058468
Demon's Souls was janky and undercooked which means it's good and soulful.

>>716070778
>There isn't a single attack from twin princes you can't reactively dodge through in any direction.
Wrong
>>716071438
>hitting them with arrows as they endlessly dodge in a extremely predictable pattern until they die
That sounds like bullshit or extreme effort
>enemies who can be forced into a loop
There's no loop. Enemies simply react outside of lock on as they should since Souls gameplay isn't lock on centric. Your 99 arrows and 20 casts won't achieve shit but meme webms and are not reflecting of the game experience.

>>716071723
I take this back - Rennala. One of the high points of Elden Ring and maybe one of the greatest parts of the Souls games as a whole. Can't think of any other interesting boss fight areas though.

>>716071723
>Capra demon
Are you serius? You could have said Gargoyles or the iron Golem since those two require paying attention to the arena so you don't fall to your death, hell even OnS because muh pillatts for blocking attacks

>>716071841
>He objectively used
Souls. Because that's what he said.

>>716070934
>astel only teleports every 30 seconds, dragons don't constantly jump away and while you have to wait and play simon says with maliketh he does come back to you
With this you definitively proved that I just want lifeless enemies who stand still so I can R1 them to death, good job.
>I just mentioned the patch that came two years later for no literally reason. I wasn't defending the fact he was the most tedious fight of the game for two years since it came out.
Ah thanks for clarifying, totally understandable, I sometimes random shit that looks like deflection that actually isn't when debating for no reason at all too.

>>716057865
Souls combat is very basic but Fromsoft has doubled down on making the games more actiony, meaning bosses are more aggressive, spammy and flashy, all while changing the core combat very little. This results in the only effective reaction to aggressive and spammy bosses being to roll. Hence, why people here call it rollslop

>>716072134
>Souls combat is very basic
It isn't

>>716072134
>This results in the only effective reaction to aggressive and spammy bosses being to roll.
If you're retarded and bad at videogames, which by all means is the case for 90% of /v/

Sekiro > 3 > 2 > BB > ER > 1 > DeS

>>716071859
>>716071982
If the Capra Demon wasn't the slightest bit interesting to you, we clearly play and see Souls games in different ways, and there's no way I'm gonna be able to highlight the exploration of the games to you.

>>716071859
>obviously deny all of this.
Yeah, since you didn't list a single fight that plays differently. They take place on a boring flat arena.

>>716057637 (OP)
“Rollslop” as a term has been a disaster for the human race. These games cultivate atmosphere and intrigue, and push the player to be prepared for danger. They’re the worthy successors to Wizardry. Matt has tricked a whole generation to be reductive on video games discourse. We’ve had midwits for a decade bitching and moaning about mechanics, and mechanics alone.
Arguing in defense of Souls combat is a losing game because they’ve always amounted to more than the sum of their parts, but despite that we have more options than ever beyond rolling.
Your rebuttal, /v/?
>”roll slop! Rollslop rollslop!!!
I’m sure the worlds biggest kings field fans are excited to finally play it.

>>716072297
Yes, being ganked by two dogs and then fucked by a goat until you aren't isn't the slightets bit interesting

>>716057637 (OP)
>didn't install the downvote browser extension even for the occasion of this screenshot
one job

>>716057637 (OP)
>jump cancelling
the what now?

>>716072297
What exploration?
Souls' dungeons are even more simple, linear and barren than the very first Wizardry, it took all the way to ER to start having some modicum of basic verticality and actual freeform exploration and it's still very basic.
What does Capra Demon's fight have to do with exploration either? It's a basic ass boss fight meant to teach you about target priority.

>>716058578
I just want an interesting, bleak world that's cleverly designed with interesting characters. The gameplay and "difficulty" are secondary

>>716072327
Margit's arena alone isn't flat so again, you keep proving how you're not here to discuss anything and you clearly haven't even played these games.

>>716072203
Nigga the average souls boss is simpler than a fucking vindictus boss
Get your head out yo ass

>>716072368
>They’re the worthy successors to Wizardry
That would be Kings Fields and to much lesser extent DeS, everything after, including DS1, have completely different direction.

>>716057637 (OP)
Ya I ain't reading that fag shit. Queer.

>>716072520
These games were never about plot nor characters.

A lot of these discussions could be resolved by acknowledging that the first Souls game you play is going to be the most memorable due to novelty, making every successive one you play less so.

Had Elden Ring been my first Souls game I would have loved it. But since I already had expectations when I started playing, I felt heavily disenfranchised by the direction From is taking.

>>716072203
It is, that's what makes it fun and challenging. You don't have to worry about autistic combos or techniques, blocking/rolling plus fundamental spacing, baiting and punishes are all you need to beat the game.

>>716072578
So there's various hazards in Margit's arena? You're telling me he can fall off the ledge then?

>>716072327
Margit and Maliketh have ring outs, the former is a narrow slope and the latter has pillars, Rykard has you staying at a specific range away from him while remaining aware of the arena walls so you don't get pinned, and the very first thing you do in Radahn's fight is approach him from a great distance using the uneven dunes and piles of weapons and corpses as cover while he shoots arrows at you.

>>716072580
No they aren't. In fact I don't think there's any bosses that have the same movelist and status/hit reaction complexity as Souls bosses in other games except the gay wound system in Wilds which is trash

>>716071952
>the evidence that proves you right doesn't count because I say so, that means you can't critique or desire better enemy AI because doing so threatens my enjoyment of the game.
Yes you said this before. You'll have to forgive me for not treating your preferences as if they're coming from some sort of god like deity I must arbitrarily obey.

>>716072752
You're wrong and stupid.

>>716072682
>It is
It isn't
>You don't have to worry about autistic combos or techniques
>blocking/rolling plus fundamental spacing, baiting and punishes are all you need to beat the game.
Those two are mutually exclusive. Spacing, positioning, reaction to subtle enemy tells are possible because the player isn't burdened by committal pre-baked attack combinations through input strings.
Souls games would be massively worse if they had those elements

>>716057637 (OP)
>while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter
I typically like matthew but if he actually said this he's a fucking retard. None of that shit belongs in Souls games and if he wants this he could easily just go somewhere else

>>716072729
He can't, but you certainly can, why are you so mad that you can't cheese Margit in particular? You can still do it with other enemies like Crucible Knights, in fact two of them are literally set up for that in Nokron.
Do you really want every boss on a bridge to be just Iron Golem again?
I thought you were bitching and moaning about wanting different fights but it looks to me you can't walk the talk.

>>716072203
they add 1 mechanic for each new game

>>716072860
>>the evidence that proves you right
What evidence?

>>716072940
>It isn't basic!
>It's so good because it lacks a lot of the overdesigned elements of character action games.
Right. Because it's basic. Which is good.

>>716058271
>and now its just rolling until the enemy finishes their combo attack
Yeah I play DS1 in the exact same way

>>716072580
Is that supposed to be derogative? Vindictus bosses are excellent from what I played like a decade ago.

>>716073145
No more, but doesn't matter

>8 years of the same threads over and over
how haven't you retards gotten bored of this shit yet

>>716073515
Matthew owns them

>>716073515
For the same reason anons can't move on from EVA

>>716057637 (OP)
Chud Souls was never good

>>716073595
TRUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEE, the Ninja Gaiden games are better

>>716073216
The idea that the game is basic because it lacks certain elements in placed of others is completely wrong.
Not only Souls games created a revolutionary combat system, but they were exactly as successful and deep because of how they developed their own systems

>>716073178
Videos that show what I described. You can easily test this yourself in dark souls 3. Get a bow and some arrows and go aggro the naked katana user in firelink and spam shooting arrows in any direction whatsoever and he will start rolling all over the place until he eventually rolls off the cliff and dies. In elden ring you can induce this behavior with magic or arrows to virtually any enemy that has a dodge animation. Same goes for crucible knights with empty flasks, you can endlessly loop them into rushing you, dodge and attack until they're dead and you can also force them to tailswipe and then attack them during recovery by doing a fast attack when they miss a big swing.
Now I know you claim this isn't so but it is and you can confirm this yourself, no webm needed.

>>716072985
>about wanting different fights
Yup. Margit plays exactly like Godfrey, who plays exactly like GraftedScion, who plays exactly like Radagon, who plays exactly like Maliketh. None of these fights are different, they use all the same kind of fight in a boring and static flat arena. Margit having slight elevation doesn't make it a different fight, it's the same kind of environment as the rest of the game. I'm sure you can be delusional to pretend you approach these battles differently because of the bad RPG elements but you don't. They all play the same, you aren't interacting with them differently because they don't have unique mechanics.

>>716073664
Chud Souls is supposed to be an "action" game. A game where you move like a chud. Clunky, slow, one dimensional.
Action games are supposed to just that. ACTION
Fast moving, smooth movements.
Devil May Cry, Bayoslutta, Mon Hun Rise
Not moving like your slogging through a bog.
Dark Souls is shit. It's always been shit.
>But muh theme, muh atmosphere
KYS

>>716073689
>but they were exactly as successful and deep because of how they developed their own systems
I disagree, I think that it's popularity is fully up to how actually simple the combat system in itself is. all the depth from the game comes from character building. The combat being simple to execute is very much done on purpose so the devs don't filter people who like RPGs but don't want to bother learning combo strings and stuff like maintaining air juggles on enemies, while still having the combat framed around executing reaction based defense.

>>716074090
Tranny

>>716057637 (OP)
>dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter
Notice how every single time someone complains about souls gameplay, it's aways some unironic retard who thinks very single action game should be DMC. Imagine unironically suggesting a fucking style meter for a souls game.

>>716073736
>You can easily test this yourself in dark souls 3. Get a bow and some arrows and go aggro the naked katana user in firelink and spam shooting arrows in any direction whatsoever and he will start rolling all over the place until he eventually rolls off the cliff and dies.
So they should have invisible walls?
>In elden ring you can induce this behavior with magic or arrows to virtually any enemy that has a dodge animation. Same goes for crucible knights with empty flasks, you can endlessly loop them into rushing you, dodge and attack until they're dead and you can also force them to tailswipe and then attack them during recovery by doing a fast attack when they miss a big swing.
None of this matters at all. AI does an excellent job at dodging projectiles in a fair way by correctly triggering on input read, which then leaves up to the player to correctly select his tool to hit the enemy based on the range between the two. The system works flawlessly and Fromsoftware actually made game mechanics around AI that can efficiently pressure the player from distance and at the same time force him to deal with moving targets. It's a meme complaint made by someone that wants to shit on the game, because the alternative would be the enemy simply eating shit like any other game and ranged tools being weak. It's doubly effective because the games have homong projectiles that are slower and can track dodging enemies and more direct and faster ones that don't, but can punish enemy that are in committment.
Basically, you are a faggot

>>716074680
OP is shitposting. The creator of the video says the exact opposite, he doesn't want that stuff in Dark Souls but he feels like that's what From is trying to do by increasing the focus on action.

>>716074680
>it's aways some unironic retard who thinks very single action game should be DMC. Imagine unironically suggesting a fucking style meter for a souls game.
I think you are conflating someone explaining how action games have more depth via some of those systems with wanting dark souls to have a style meter

>>716073689
You could explain the DaS combat system to any mouthbreather in a matter of minutes, it is intentionally simplistic enough to be pick up and play by just pressing buttons for a while. The depth comes from how the developers expect you to utilize the game's mechanics and the abstract concepts the game's simplistic systems encourage you to utilize (spacing, situational awareness, pattern recognition, etc).

>>716073689
>>716075448
Oh and also if we're being really real there's nothing DeS combat was doing (outside of parry I guess) that LoZ wasn't over a decade earlier.

>>716074282
>I think that it's popularity is fully up to how actually simple the combat system in itself is.
The most successful game of the year is Elden Ring stripped of any frills and entirely condensed around combat elements
>all the depth from the game comes from character building.
False
>The combat being simple to execute is very much done on purpose so the devs don't filter people who like RPGs but don't want to bother learning combo strings and stuff like maintaining air juggles on enemies
The action genre is aimed at literal kids and none of those elements are "complex". This is what happens when you sniff your own farts over the combat of games like DMC, MGRR and Bayonetta. Jumping into iframes to cancel attacks is not an hardcore mechanic

>>716073689
>Souls games created a revolutionary combat system
Developers lazing copying From because Souls is easy to make does not mean Demon's or Dark Souls invented anything new to the table. This might blew your mind, but King's Field already had a stamina bar. Many games already had a stamina bar.

>>716075448
>You could explain the DaS combat system to any mouthbreather in a matter of minutes
What kind of combat can't be explained in a matter of minutes
>it is intentionally simplistic
No, it's simply built around its own mechanics with no regard of genre trends, and this somehow fucks completely with your head because it turns out there's more depth and enjoyment from the jigsaw puzzle of hitboxes and hurtboxes alongside its developed hit reactions systems over using canned moves from some arbitrary movelist in a game based on binary and piss poor hyperarmor, which you somehow equate to depth

>>716058578
This

I don't know who is more retarded.
Matthew' simps parroting word by word what he said or retards posting ER videos about strategies only chinese no-life dudes can pull of yet thinking that somehow debunks whatever his imaginary enemies posted on 4chinks

>>716060557
Dismantled the game years before it even came out. Insane.

>>716075747
>The most successful game of the year is Elden Ring stripped of any frills and entirely condensed around combat elements
ok, so what? Skyrim is one of the most successful games ever made and is also mostly stripped of frills and is entirely centered around combat elements, and those combat elements are also very simple.
>False
you gonna elaborate on that or just gonna say "nuh-uh" as if that's an actual rebuttal?
>The action genre is aimed at literal kids and none of those elements are "complex". This is what happens when you sniff your own farts over the combat of games like DMC, MGRR and Bayonetta. Jumping into iframes to cancel attacks is not an hardcore mechanic
first things first, action as a genre is very broad and can be made for many demographics. secondly, even if action was inherently aimed towards children (it is not), that does not mean it could be without complexity. and lastly, jump canceling attacks quickly requires much higher execution than say, rolling with iframes through an attack in any souls game, so even if you don't think it is hardcore, it is still MORE hardcore than any test of execution leveled at you in a souls game.

It's funny how many Fromdrones get bootyblasted about this video when he says right after this (fake) quote that Dark Souls puts many other action rpgs to shame. Drones are going to drone like the corporate slaves they are through.

>>716075879
>This might blew your mind, but King's Field already had a stamina bar. Many games already had a stamina bar.
What has that to do with a combat based on animation committment (which King's field and Zelda do not have)

>>716076239
That's what happens when you bundle all your self worth in how good you are at a game.

>>716060990
This type of slop is why schools should only be accessible to landed gentry

>>716060347
>it is pretty remarkable how I can't remember anything
seek help before you get older

>>716076283
>combat based on animation committment
King's Field does have that (for melee) and are you saying Dark Souls invented this as well or something?

>>716059225
>Not that this fucking retard ever played DMC
https://youtu.be/b5v7NLT5fS0
Clearly not

>>716063249
>memorize the simon says pattern
>stop criticizing

>>716060347
Tanimurafags seething at the truth of trash that is DaS2 like usual.

>>716076207
>Skyrim is one of the most successful games ever made and is also mostly stripped of frills
No it's not. The whole point of Skyrim success is muh cities and porn mods
>and is entirely centered around combat elements
Lol
>you gonna elaborate
There's no need. It is completely false and evident for anyone to see. The idea that there's no depth to learning how to move and fight in a game where some players struggle for hundreds of hours and others fight naked at Lvl1 is insane. Also funny how the schizophrenic incoherent rambling of how Souls games are so terribly basic even a toddler can play it is never accompanied by actual gameplay of the very person speaking
>jump canceling attacks quickly requires much higher execution
Lol

>>716076456
>King's Field does have that (for melee)
No it doesn't. It's funny how unhinged and stupid Fromsoft haters are

>>716066770
Ratatoskr is a retard autist and his followers are all spics

>>716059054
You retarded faggot

>>716076712
Literally who?

>>716076239
This is what cults do to you.

>>716076639
that is literally animation commitment, you bait out an attack you can punish because the enemy is committed to the animation. The same applies to the player, if you approach to swing when it is unsafe, the slower movement speed of the player character likely means you're going to eat the attack. It's just not very flashy in the presentation department. Hell I fought the cursed hotdog in BB this same exact way, walking up to bait the forward bite/lunge, then swinging on the attack to punish it after baiting it.

>>716069582
Sigrun rapes you daily

>>716057637 (OP)
Ah one of those... "not depth" "not complex".

>>716076569
it must be tough having the hobby of acting like a moron for attention from strangers.

>>716076639
>no it doesn't
>posts exactly what is it is
So you can cancel your sword swing? Show me. I never once did that.

>>716072203
Kill yourself

>>716076569
>jump canceling attacks quickly requires much higher execution
>Lol
What's funny about the truth? You don't need to be a glue-eating combofag to know DMC and other action games have a higher barrier of execution. The devs are literally fightanfags.

>>716076889
>that is literally animation commitment, you bait out an attack you can punish because the enemy is committed to the animation. The same applies to the player
Play the fucking game you retarded poser

>>716073689
>Not only Souls games created a revolutionary combat system, but they were exactly as successful and deep because of how they developed their own systems
First, ESL fags like you should be genocided. Second, fromslop is the CODslop of action games.

>>716077098
I did and you're wrong. Why are Tanimurafags so stupid?

>>716057637 (OP)
>while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter.

It completely falls apart at this point, he just wants things that other games have for no reason, a vague idea of depth but he doesn't actually understand depth so he just throws out shit from other games. Sure, perhaps some sort of score or ranking could be done, but a style meter? For what fucking reason? Furthermore implying that a style meter is a basic character action mechanic is unbelievably retarded, he doesn't even understand why it's in DMC and why it almost never fits into any other game.

>>716077098
>if you approach to swing when it is unsafe
>shows a clip of someone approaching and swinging when it is safe
lol

They could make the combat more engaging by making it so that weapon types and attacks actually matter. An example would be to have it so that straight swords/falchions/katanas bounce off enemies wearing metal armor (like that armor dude in Sekiro), forcing you to use blunt weapons like a mace but also make metal armor weak to thrust attacks so swords aren't totally invalid, and have it so that non-armor wearing enemies are too fast for blunt weapons, forcing you to switch back, or have it so that you can deflect attacks from a non-blunt weapon if you are using that same weapon time by perfect blocking while two-handing. I wish it actually made a difference what type of weapon you use in these games besides dps. Also, remove dodge i-frames and make every human enemy in the game fight like npc characters with the same moveset as you so group fights are actually challenging and play by the same rules as you, with switching what types of weapons they use base on what you're wearing or using to attack to gain an advantage and also deflecting or parrying your attacks if you just R1 spam

>>716077169
>>716077158
Nice deflection, faggot
You got caught being a retarded poser who never played king's field lol

>>716077380
God damn, why are Fromdromes so fucking stupid. What causes this shit.

>>716077316
>They could make the combat more engaging
It's already engaging
>An example would be to have it so that straight swords/falchions/katanas bounce off enemies wearing metal armor (like that armor dude in Sekiro),
Wow sounds like shit and actually a way to kill variety
>Also, remove dodge i-frames
No

>dude I should be able to enjoy the dance with just a sword. All these specials and buffs and complex boss patterns ruin the experience
>omg souls is so basic just roll and R1 lmao
which is it fucktards?

>>716057637 (OP)
Man this fucking bait is nearly a decade old at this point and it’s still getting people.

>>716077316
That sounds way too cool and fun for From to program. They still have difficulty implementing launch animations in their games or walkable NPCs.

>>716077156
>First, ESL fags
Nothing there is incorrect, actual ESLfaggot
Why are you pretending you weren't laughed at for your broken english in the Nightreign thread, Pedro?

>>716077436
Play games before talking about them, faggot

>>716077465
You guys are like a parody yourselves.

>>716077468
CRPGs have more complicated spells and buffs, that doesn't change that the bulk of combat is clicking on the enemy and watching your blob kill their blob. The depth like any RPG with a focus on character building, comes from the synergies of stats, items and spells, with the actual act of combat being relatively simple to execute on. How is this so hard to understand?

>>716077661
I did which is why I know you're a stupid Fromdrone. Why can't you show me the act of canceling your melee attacks? Come on, you played it, right? Show me.

>>716077082
All this gay shit for a C
>higher barrier of execution
Spamming jumps and dodges and shooting pistols is an high bar of execution?

>>716077792
it is a HIGHER bar of execution than anything any souls game asks of you. and surely since it's so easy you can post a clip of you doing the same, yes?

>>716077792
>Spamming jumps and dodges and shooting pistols is an high bar of execution?
Absolutely. No matter how reductive you can try to be about it, it doesn't change reality. Common mistake among the idiots on /v/.

>>716077769
>I did
No you didn't.
King's field doesn't have animation committment.
You can perform any action while attacking and move where you want

>>716058578
You can't justify no fast travel or runbacks in a modern souls game UNLESS it was specifically built around it from the ground up. It's not the thing fans want back and it's old news.

Gimmick bosses are fine in a game with limited combat options like Shadow of the Colossus. It's that simple.

>>716078140
Crazy how the Fromdrone refuses to post what I'm exactly asking for. Almost like you're wrong and stupid and don't know what you're talking about.

>>716077963
>it is a HIGHER bar of execution
No it's not, that's fucking laughable. It's dodging without the committment and actual punishing enemy design that would make it interesting because pizza man has to twirl with duual handguns
Fuck off with this lame shit, this genre died too late even

>>716076639
>>716077098

How is this not the exact same thing?

>>716057637 (OP)
He sounds retarded. The players toolset has constantly increased since DeS, there is as much depth as you want. If you just want to spam roll and r1 then that's on you. It's like spamming stringer and helm breaker in dmc and then complaining that the game lacks depth.

>>716078450
>The players toolset has constantly increased since DeS
And everything is either a redundant version of the basic attacks and roll, or completely trivializes the game like the ashes and magic

>>716078304
>nuh uh
one trash fight in any DMC game played even a medium level of skill has 10 times the amounts of inputs than any boss fight in any souls game.

It's time to admit that DS3 was based.

>>716077572
>in placed of others
in place of others
>Not only Souls games created a revolutionary combat system
Not only did souls games create (you don't understand the difference because you're an ESL subhuman from a shithole country)
>but they were exactly as successful and deep because of how
You literally don't know how to open a clause with the word "as" and then resolve it the way it ought to be resolved.

Again, you're a turd worlder, which tracks with your autistic defensiveness over a combat system that's little more than the action rpg equivalent to COD. You don't count as white, btw.

>>716057637 (OP)
>>716057937
>>716058127
>>716058271
>>716058906
OP HAS BEEN BAITING FOR 8 FUCKING YEARS AND YOU PEOPLE STILL FALL FOR IT
HE NEVER FUCKING MENTIONED ANY OF THOSE ACTION MECHANICS IN HIS VIDEO, YOUVE ALL CONTINUOUSLY FALLEN FOR THIS SHIT FOR 8 FUCKING YEARS
YOU PEOPLE ARE GAY AND RETARDED
https://youtu.be/Np5PdpsfINA?t=4m21s
HE'S FUCKING RIGHT BY THE WAY

>>716078556
Have you never played a action game or RPG before? Yes you have a bunch of options that vaguely perform the same and some special moves that consume resources. It's called game balance.

>>716078754
You can get to the gutter from Door of Pharros so I dont get this map

>>716079045
It’s a shitpost, he literally just took the linear DS3 map and jumbled the point positions to make it look complex.

>>716078754
It will always be a good game unlike DaS2.

>>716079163
Ha, no.

>>716078970
>YOU PEOPLE ARE GAY AND RETARDED
you came into this thread to defend your youtube daddy's honor

>>716078450
Tell me what you can do in the later games to avoid attacks besides the occasional smart positioning and rolling.
It lacks the depth of something like Monster Hunter. Rolling in the later Souls games is always a get out of jail free card.
The other options in the later games is just always "attack that has a longer animation but does more damage".
It's as simple as it gets.

>>716079273
Yes. DaS3 isn't a shitty Tainmura game. DaS2 very much is.

>>716063121
You can also duck.

>>716079346
I came into this thread to prove that niggers will believe anything that's posted

>>716078426
You can't move
>>716078106
>Absolutely
Lol
>>716078965
>Autistic retard can't recognize T9
Lol

>>716079394
Elden Ring is a shitty Tanimura game and outsold and out-popular’d the entire mainline series. Your pathetic bloodborne rollslop isn’t even relevant anymore.

>>716079495
>Elden Ring is a shitty Tanimura game
I know.

>>716079470
Yes, I know it's funny that you're a stupid Fromdrone but that's just the truth.

>>716079535
And it’s eternally more relevant than your shitty series, lol.

>>716079452
still not watching your youtube daddy's video essay, still enjoying all the games for their respective strengths instead of circlejerking about demon's souls being the only good one for sixteen years because half its boss fights aren't even fights

>dude, have you tried to JUMP
>this is most complex game ever
Meanwhile in reality jumping over attacks is a gamble. It stops being a gamble when you disregard all visuals and start dissecting game at functional level, examining hitboxes and such, at which point, there is little difference between
>i'm ultra cool gamer who memorized every hitbox so I can record webms for 4chan souls threads
and
>i'm following a guide from start to finish

>>716079749
Being delegated to a shitty cashgrab assetflip isn't a good thing and I don't know why you would even praise that.

>>716079789
I don't give a shit man, you're just a gullible retard. Souls shit will never be a real action game.

>>716079842
Skill issue

Chat gpt. Begin flooding the board with various Scissor Statement OPs about various games. Collect the data on the type of replies for each thread, and whether it reaches true unreconcilable 50% split in stances. Improve the Scissor Statements based on the responses in the first 200 replies in a thread and paste the breakdown in each thread afterwards.

>>716061718
What is this guy going to do against the Golden Hippo or Bayle or any of the bosses that you can't parry?

I like the gameplay of Demons Souls and Dark Souls 2 more than Dark Souls or Elden Ring.
Something about it is more fun to me

>>716079886
Lolol, your entire shitty “series” is a cashgrab asset flip of demons souls, lmfao.

>>716079365
>It lacks the depth of something like Monster Hunter.
No it doesn't
>Rolling in the later Souls games is always a get out of jail free card
No it isn't.
>The other options in the later games is just always "attack that has a longer animation but does more damage".
Wrong

>>716058578
DMC is way easier than any Souls game and more accessible by nature.

>>716080198
>>It lacks the depth of something like Monster Hunter.
>No it doesn't
What a compelling argument, kill yourself retard.

>>716079470
>gets outed as a turdworlder ESL
>ERM IS ACTUALLY REFERENCE HUEHUE
why not just accept that you were born and will die in a shithole

>>716080198
Yes it does, yes it is, correct. I guess in Elden Ring the strong attack also has stagger damage but so does the fucking jumping attack so who in their right mind uses the charge heavy?

>>716079631
The only thing funny here is you thinking you can come to me with your shitty webm of twirling and spamming jumps in the air and pretend DMC is fucking deep for it.
You lack self awareness if you think that's impressive

I basically see two ways for fromsoft to evole. Either embrace going full out with action mechanics and turn player character into a fucking Artorias as well (what they partially did with nightrein but it's still based on an outdated dogshit combat system), or go back to the slower deliberate combat and make it more tactical and demanding by removing dodge iframes, making weapon types matter, returning puzzle elements to the boss fights and so on.

Unfortunately there's a bunch of fantastic arpgs that shit on Fromsoft in terms of combat mechanics and it will be very hard for them to catch on. Lies of P's dlc came out 2 weeks after nightrein and has all the coolest things about nightrein (non-shit bows, pilebunker, rocket boost) integrated right into the weapon movesets in a far cooler fashion.

>>716080282
Other way around. DMC is much harder. DMC doesn't have RPG elements and party NPCs.

>>716066348
I try jumping for everything and sometimes it works.

>>716079431
Using Weapons Arts that get you low to the ground is definitely underrated.
I dodge a ton of stuff using the duck from Giant's Hunt, for example.

>>716057937
this poster was the start of complete trash cans who hailed souls as the second coming of christ when they were only decent games with non retard difficulty in a time where games were too easy

elden ring is the epitome of design by commitee, bonfires mean nothing, you can teleport whenever, invasions are almost negated and players are given infinite tools to cheese bosses before they even learn their movesets

matthewfagosis was right, elden ring is a generic blob of a game, enjoyed by everyone and loved by no one

>>716080414
>"guys check out how I can walk to avoid the boss attack! This is soooooooo deep!!!!"
This is game equivalent of pic related and it's so fucking funny that you people don't realize it.

>>716057637 (OP)
I feel like Souls games are something people are in love with the idea of, and not the actual execution itself. I remember playing DS 1 when it hit that upswing in popularity and I watched my friends talk about the lore and how excited they got, but I couldn't play it for longer than 30 minutes because anything that isn't fighting the top 10% of bosses is just so boring. Fighting trash mobs is lame, the actual difference in "builds" is minimal, and the """"quests"""" can't even be called that

>>716080414
>The only thing funny here is you being so stupid you can post another shitty webm and unironically believe it has more execution than the one I posted. You're mentally ill so I know you're willing to argue this despite being objectively wrong on accounts.

>>716079842
I dunno basically every attack I thought I could jump over worked, like dragonbozo's ground slams, the elden beast ground rings, crucible knight stomp and so on.

>>716080575
You can choose to ignore cheese options as evidenced by the shit flinging ITT

>>716059002
DS2 filters the normies and thus its the best.

>>716080725
choose to ignore is not a valid argument, its like pretending parrying doesn't exist in sekiro, the mechanics is right there in front of you and its downright retarded not to use it

people that complain about malenia in elden ring are contrarian idiots that just wanna unga bunga with circle and R1 when you're supposed to play unfairly against her unfair moveset and blast her to smithereens with every trick in your belt, faggots that say "if you did X you didn't beat the game" aren't the target audience of these games

>>716077316
The miners with scales in Demon's Souls strongly resist physical damage, except for thrusting and are weak to magic. Not the only enemies like that in the game.
The skeletons throughout the series generally are very resistant to slashes and thrust, while any amount of blunt damage will make them fall down, including from smaller weapons. Many enemies in 3 will become stunned from the most miniscule amount of fire damage, including from resins and firebombs.

The issue with switching to a different weapon to counter specific enemies is the upgrade and scaling system in these games. They are stingy with how many upgrade materials you get and at most you can keep a 2nd weapon two or three upgrade levels lower if you scrounge up every possible material and don't compromise your main weapon. Likewise scaling means you're limited in options for a secondary damage source. Sure you can get a pickaxe for STR thrust damage, but what about blunt DEX scaling damage? And is that weapon something you can get at that point in the game+What you're interested in using?

>>716080847
It filters them by being dogshit yes

>>716059002
thats a cute idea. Makes me wish the game wasnt utter shit.

>>716058185
This is not a correct analysis, no. It's easy to say such a thing in hindsight, because current games influence opinions of older games. Elden Ring was not out when you played Dark Souls 3. Dark Souls 3 was not out when you played Dark Souls. Dark Souls was not out when you played Demons Souls. However, Demons Souls was out when you played Dark Souls. Dark Souls was out when you played Dark Souls 3. And Dark Souls 3 was out when you played Elden Ring.

Yeah, the later games don't have the same edge. But that's majorly the players fault. I played Demons Souls by nervously inching everywhere and re-exploring every level. By the time Elden Ring was out, I played these games as a build-focused action game. I cannot go back and enjoy Demons Souls in the same way. It's impossible. I can only go back and reminisce over how I first played it. But this style of game has too many entries now to be able to enjoy it in the same way.

If Demons Souls was wiped from everyone's memory simultaneously and was "released" to the public today, people would bitch about it. Not because Demons Souls is a bad game, and it isn't, it really is a great game. But because everybody is toasted on the formula.

Every genre experienced this over time.

>>716080892
They could've easily implemented a different upgrade system that's not permanent
>each weapon has a number of gem slots that increase its power
>you can embed and remove gems as much as you want
That's fucking it

>>716080886
You can't ignore parrying in Sekiro because it's an essential mechanic, you will die if you don't parry
Meanwhile where does it say that i NEED to spawn mimic tier or whatever else to beat malenia 6ft under? nowhere

Exanima has better combat than dark souls but it still has some insane physics techs people good with their hands figured out. I can't replicate it because I'm arthritic.

>>716081143
Basically the gem system from BB that doesn't require annoying grinding.

>>716081212
>spirit summons are not essential in elden ring

oh that must be why they give you billions of them lol

>>716080381
No it isn't. What's supposed to be great about MH over Souls. Souls is MH but every enemy is actually somewhat threatening. The multi-stage movelist? Wow too bad I wouldn't trade it for a second over an aggressive boss design not designed around a fuckton of guardframes/offset for every single weapon and not having PVP. I guess you like more MH, but it certainly isn't that deep
>>716080370
>autistic retard at it again, still doesn't know T9 corrects to recently used words

>>716081284
Will the game hardlock my ability to progress it if i do not at ANY point use a summon?

>>716081406
i dont even activate the summoning stick or pick up the associated item the entire game. not the dummy you are replying too, i know what essential means.

>>716079365
>repositioning
>rolling
>jumping
>block
>parry
>ashes of wars
>rally
>hyperarmor on attacks for trading
>poise boosting spells and consumables for trading
Honestly I don't get what you are even talking about. The games give you several options to completely avoid attacks, block/counter attacks and power through attacks. This is an huge amount of variety and I really struggle to name another rpg franchise that gives you this amount of options just for dealing with enemy attacks.

>>716080456
>pause menu with instant use health consumables
>automatic mode
>gold orbs
>die too many times and it lets you switch to easy difficulty
>you can't even play on the "real" difficulty setting until you've already beaten the game twice on lower difficulties
DMC having a high skill ceiling doesn't mean it doesn't also have a potentially very low skill floor for just playing every chapter and seeing the end credits. The games never make you get S ranks.

>>716081659
>to name another rpg franchise that gives you this amount of options just for dealing with enemy attacks.
Most of them. That's nothing special.

>>716080456
DMC doesn't even demand elegance unless you specifically go for it. Few of the bosses are truly difficult, just like in a souls game. Your average DMC fans as of late are Fatlus/Tumblrtrannies who struggle with basic math and work low skill jobs, and they still absolutely assrape the series with just a few deaths to certain bosses. It hasn't been an elite, hardcore game since you were fucking 13, man. Shit has evolved. We aren't teenagers anymore.

>>716081793
>It's not hard because it doesn't demand as much from the average player as souls games on first playthrough
That's just lower barries of entry, not how hard the games can be

>>716081802
>Most of them
Name hundred

>>716082125
Just off the top of my head: Dragon's Dogma and Kingdom Hearts.

>>716082219
2/100
98 to go

>>716081958
>unless you specifically go for it.
And Souls isn't hard unless you never use anything but just your fists with no armor while blindfolded.

>>716080456
>doesn't have RPG elements
Literally has you level up your different styles in 3, buy new moves for each weapon and even forces you to get basic core moves like Enemy Step in 5 which is ridiculous. You even get shit like restorative items, extra continues/revives and screen wipes that you can use from the pause menu. I personally dislike this aspect of the games and how other entries in the genre also have it (MGR:R), I know the first playthrough is just easing me into it by drip feeding me all this crap but it doesn't account at all for veterans of a series or people experienced in the genre.

Agreed that the DMC games (and similar) are harder if you intend to play them with a degree competency or in higher difficulties. Except for 3 and its sneaky adaptative difficulty, fuck that.

>>716081406
No, and Mario 64 won't hardlock you at any point if you don't jump either, in fact you can beat the entire game without pressing the A button

>>716081308
Souls pvp has been straight unheated dogshit. It’s always ultimately a spacing game, which is why every tryhard uses a soear. Even the designers don’t care, pvp is a pure afterthought at this point, every game they nerf invaders more.
>aggressive boss design
You haven’t even played MH.

>>716080725
If you're not using the full array of mechanics and systems a game has to offer, you are simply doing a self imposed challenge, which is not a good way to assess a game.

>>716081143
They're too retarded closely copying the worst and least interesting elements from Demon's Souls over and over, never wondering if it fits their new game or not.

>>716076569
>The whole point of Skyrim success is muh cities and porn mods
Ya buddy, that's why it sold so poorly on consoles.

>>716082623
>buy new moves for each weapon and even forces you to get basic core moves
Buying stuff in a shop isn't an rpg mechanic.

>>716083140
Nobody plays Skyrim on consoles anymore unless they're too poor for a PC

>>716081212
Someone already beat Sekiro without dodging or parrying in a challenge run thougheverbeit
>>716083140
...the console without the porn mods yes?

>>716083242
Progression mechanics are, unlocking half of your moveset or spending currency to upgrade your max HP is pure RPG progression.
It's no different from skill trees in other games, except that you are limited to accessing it through a shop statue or in between missions.

>>716071207
> "Stormveil is good. That's about it."

Stormveil is as far as you made it into the game before you got filtered, anon.

Leyndell and Elphael/Haligtree are easily the best locations in the game.

>>716084042
>Leyndell
>a bunch of empty and boring streets with even more braindead shitty enemies
>Haligtree
>with that level geometry
No.

>>716081308
Dance for me again, turdworlder ESL monkey. Chop chop.

>>716057637 (OP)
Anyone with half a brain was already calling out the rollslop by the time d2 came out, and it became vey apparent they were forever gonna stick to the formula by the time ds3 happened. He's right, but it's not a unique observation. I've been making fun of the shit combat in this game for years making the fromdrone cultists seethe in rage as they pretend for many many years that these games are super complex and deep and that you can do more than just roll.

>>716084042
neither of those even remotely approach stormveil's intricacy

>>716084276

>>716057637 (OP)
I've always thought this and I never gave a fuck about this dumbass eceleb. I'd rather you post this opinion from your own mouth instead of regurgitating a youtuber's take, so that when someone calls you wrong or a faggot you won't hide behind someone else's word and instead confront it with your own.

The worst part about this is that you aren't even listening, you are parroting. This knowledge isn't yours, it is borrowed. You're even stupider for taking a scholar's word at face value instead of making any attempt at comparing his view to yours. Youtubers are the ChatGPT dependency brainrot of the previous decade.

>>716084853
It's a made up quite if it makes you feel any better. Although the quote was made up specifically to sound retarded so the fact you've always thought this might not be great

>>716080282
DMC get progressively harder as you climb difficulties. Just like most 6th gen action games. You are absolutely out of your nigger mind if you thinking beating Orphan of Kos or Malenia is harder than getting SS Ranks on DMD mode in DMC3.

THE NEW VID IS UP MATTHEWBROS

>>716085116
It's not made up, only this part is:
>while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a simple style meter
Everything else he says is right because rolling around at the speed and mashing R1 doesn't make for a interesting or dynamic combat system.

>>716081406
>b-but what if I move the goalpost!
you die like a tranny

>>716072134
it's amazing /v/ is too retarded to use a shield and too shit to parry.

>>716063271
What's with this retarded sentiment? Nobody says this shit about MegaMan or Castlevania. The fact "m-muh runback term even exists is proof enough that Soulsfaggots don't care about anything that isn't fighting a boss. The "linear boss rush" meme isn't a meme.

>>716075557
Everything in souls was in tenchu and KF before LoZ

>>716078556
you can apply this to DMC/NG. everything is an attack button or a button that mitigates damage

>>716085116
I've seen the video where he said this, at least the first sentence of the spiel, because I don't dismiss what others think I just don't immediately take them as gospel because it's easy. I didn't read the rest because I've heard the position a dozen times.
>>716085329
I would disagree in that you can have interesting combat with simple controls, but there has to be an immense depth to the encounters that evolve beyond boss attack patterns. Like imagine if the Centipede Demon boss fight didn't have a shit camera and you were on an island in the middle of the arena instead of a safe wall. You can dodge to roll, but you have to plan out your evasions ahead of time so you don't roll into fucking lava like a dumbass retard. Blocking an attack that would send you flying would send you into the lava to eat shit. Interesting strategic choices, rather than literal skill checks, are barely ever rewarded. Boss rooms got bigger to mitigate retards getting filtered by their lack of spatial awareness rather than their circle pressing skills.
But combat wasn't what kept me in Souls games anyway, there's bigger topics like how they're still so bad at doing questlines, how hard it is to make certain builds, the streamlining of boss attack patterns around fast rolls affecting builds and itemization at large. Also nit picks of like why it's so worth it to kill every merchant you see on sight or why you can only get one generic zweihander per run. Plenty of places for improvement, but boss fights are more important apparently.

>>716065654
>Yui Tanimura, I feel, is one of the people to blame
the only ones to blame here are the retarded fanboys who jerked off over artorias and dying over and over again

>>716086095
>Nobody says this shit about MegaMan or Castlevania
piss easy bosses, breh. people said it about NG nes games, andthey were riht

>>716065350
""""fixed""""

>>716057637 (OP)
>YOUTUBE MAN LOOK GUYS ITS YOUTUBE MAN. My entire life revolves around posting youtube man
Kill yourself

>>716085318
Yet you never have to climb difficulties unless you want to jerk off to how great you are. ER doesn't offer you an easier Malenia after you die to Waterfowl Dance ten times.

>>716086414
You can definitely have lots of actions for a character with just a single button command though. You can have regular basic attacks, charge attacks by holding it, directional attacks by flicking the stick, pause combos, and so on. And if a game is made by competent developers all of these can have different properties that affect the enemy in a variety of different ways.

>>716086859
>ummm why would I play on anything above normal?
This is why action game players make fun of soulsfags. Nobody can take you seriously despite you wanting to pretend you're good at video games when you unironically write stupid shit like this.

>>716062962
Yes, I like Dark Souls 2 because it was innovative despite its many shortcomings.
No, I don't rank it above Dark Souls 1 because its presentation in many aspects were underwhelming.
Yes, I do rank it above Dark Souls 3 because DaS3 was the epitome of a streamlined and "refined" experience filled with what was clearly nostalgia pandering for a then 4 year old game whose luster immediately faded upon beating it the first time.
If I replay a Souls game, it's anything but DaS3 and ER.

>>716087027
I was actually about to bring up Chivalry where there are just vertical, horizontal, and stabbing attacks and then turning the camera around to manipulate the attack's path and timing. There were cancels and kicks, of course, but the main skill expression was how you managed to turn your M1 into a hit via camera and body control. I actually accel a lot of my attacks in Souls games with unlocked play. If you ever hit someone with the backswing of a Greatsword, you've already done a drag.

>>716086414
>how hard it is to make certain builds
Which builds?
>the streamlining of boss attack patterns around fast rolls affecting builds and itemization at large
How did this affect itemization? You mean every build having fast roll? Only game where non-fast rolls were worth it were in DaS1 with medium rolls. That's hardly a build choice since any character can just strip their armor, unless you meant something else.
>why it's so worth it to kill every merchant you see on sight
It wasn't until 3 and Bloodborne streamlined the merchants into one at your hub and the other ones are just key items you can integrate into your main one. 2 kinda fucked it up by being able to revive any NPC and the first merchant you see having such a strong armor bonus with the extra souls.

>>716087257
Funny, it was you who compared max difficulty DMC challenge runs to non-challenge run base NG Souls bosses.

>>716086859
>ER doesn't offer you an easier Malenia after you die to Waterfowl Dance ten times.
no, it allows you to summon mimic tear to solo her from the start

>>716087257
nta, but retarded shit like this is why everyone laughs at DMCfags talking about SS ranks and DMD. the game isn't good enough for most people to warrant a second playthrough on these optional difficulties. even DMC mostly players feel this way since DMD has only a 3% completion rate. so, youre getting talked down to by autistic spergs, or people pretending to be autistic spergs

pseud shit, glad I came late

>>716088227
>why everyone laughs at DMCfags talking about SS ranks and DMD
This is the complete opposite of what happens in reality when people who post their clears and actually play games at their highest setting or 1CC STGs and beat-em-ups will call you a cock sucking casual idiot, because that's what you are.