These 4 stand on a level of their own.

caves of qud is not particularly complex for the genre

Even the most braindead total war game is more complicated than any of those.

>>716170263 (OP)
>most complex game ever made
>none of them are pvp
Dota 2 is the most complex game. Any game where you play vs an Ai rather than a functioning human will never reach true complexity and can be beaten by anyone following a guide.

>>716170797
Complexity and difficulty are not the same thing, kiddo.

>>716170390
Which games are more complex in the same genre?

>>716170263 (OP)
I don't like open world as a format for Roguelikes, actually I'm kind of tired of open world in general. Elin is fun but Qud is way too cheesy of a game for my taste

>>716170263 (OP)
>>716171024
Kill yourself moron

>>716171103
cdda is the most obvious example
all qud really has going for it complexity wise is the crafting and the fact that you can get extra limbs; that sort of thing isnt comparable to designing and building your own car

I've only played Elin out of those, pretty good game, starting over in a year+ would probably be cool

>>716171024
Yes and none of these games are complex by my standards I've played 3/4 of them in sure the last one falls in line as well. Single player games cannot be complex by nature.

>>716171381
Is the Steam version good?

>>716170390
In terms of raw mechanics there's not a lot that gets more complex than Qud, something like UnReal World is not at all representative for the roguelike average.
There's a lot of games that do some specific things better, SiL has a more indepth lighting simulation, DF has way better worldgen, CDDA has its vehicle mechanics, URR has its autistically indepth culture generation, Shadow of the Wyrm has a more robust set of civic skill etc., but Qud has an admittedly extremely well rounded set of features.
Unfortunately the devs themselves also refuse to acknowledge that and don't really capitalize on most of them.

>>716170797
Dota's really not that complex. It just has a ton of memorizing for entry level.

>>716171435
sorry, couldnt tell you; I've never played the steam version

>>716171382
How do I learn how to play it? I dropped at the tutorial level

>>716170263 (OP)
df is broken buggy half-implemented shit

Aurora 4X

>>716171519
>not complex
>more interactions than any other game ever made

Haha, most pvp games can't even scratch the surface of complexity. They are played on the same maps over and over again.
Dominions and Aurora4X are the only contenders.

>>716171718
When I played it seriously around 2012 I was regularly in games with pros and I just built the same few heroes the same few ways every single game.

The most complex shit about it is memorizing which spells go through spell immunity and other lame interactions like that.

>>716171775
Fking retard auora4x ai is dogshit and easily abuse able domions pvp? Sure. Sp is a joke

>>716170263 (OP)
Elin is braindead easy

>>716171851
It's had 13 years worth of updates after that. There's quite literally thousands of interactions now. The item pool has easily over doubled since then and +20-30 characters as well. Map has different mechanics on top of it.

>>716172062
I used to play WC3 very seriously and it felt infinitely more complex than Dota ever did to me. To be honest every time I go back it just feels like they've made dota worse.

>>716172062
not into ASSFAGGOTS but what do you mean item interactions? Are there actual unique mechanics around that or are you just talking about stat boost affecting characters slightly differently?

>>716172162
They have active and passive item effects that interact differently with various heros and abilities. It's difficult to explain without a point of reference for you though. The whole game centers more around item abilities than the stat boosts they provide. Building counter items, each hero has 2 play styles you lock one in at the start of a match. They get different talents that alter how their abilities work or interact with other items etc. There's layers upon layers and honestly no 2 matches will ever be even remotely similar.

have they added alchemy to elin yet
I haven't played since the release

>>716172572
alchemy has always been in the game

>>716172425
hmm. sounds like the exact reason I bounced off Deadlock too. sure there are a lot of mechanical interactions but the time required to learn them all gate keeps retards like me. I love DF, Qud, and Noita so maybe it's the pvp elements that make it so shit as a new player

I couldn't really understand Elin most of the time. I just remember randomly dying to humanoid NPCs walking around in low level caves

>>716171571
>How do I learn how to play it?
by playing it, that's what i did, usually use the same strategy for every video game I've touched in the past 35 years

Eve Online
X4: Foundations
Nebulous: Fleet Command
AI War 2

multiplayer games are as easy as singleplayer games because most people are below the cognitive level of an AI

>>716172821
game is too hard for that, you probably didn’t play optimally

>>716172638
I don't remember being able to get any potion recipes, maybe I'm just dumb
on a similar note - can I make my own weapons now

I like how people here talk shit about DF, CoQ and Elin but no one says anything about Noita because everyone understands this game is genuinely too fucking complex, nearly impossible to beat without a guide.

>>716172741
Yea deadlock is in a similar vein. Neither game is new player friendly at all. Despite being a brand new IP Deadlock players were being stomped by either FPSfags who are aiming to win or MOBAfags who know the game playstyle to win.

>>716173095
>make a multicast wand with random modifiers and spells you find
>move perpendicular to the enemy projectiles' trajectories
>win

>>716173095
Making your puzzled faggoty and annoying to solve doesn't make the game complex. It makes the developers pretentious.

>>716170263 (OP)
DF is not even a "game" it is just a very shallow simulation, even MS flight simulator is 10x more of game than it...
And it is not very hard to understand the systems on it as long as you think like some crazy nerd

>>716173218
>sage
Persistent names got me again.

>>716173227
>It's not hard, it's tedious!
mad

>>716170263 (OP)
Noita is not complex at all wtf

>>716170263 (OP)
How do you organically "play" noita beyond just getting to the conventional end? All the other esoteric shit seems very wiki oriented

>>716173227
It's still complex whether it makes you buttmad or not.

>>716172974
>you probably didn’t play optimally
yes I ate rations for the first 300 game days and ignored the entire actual food system which is literally the most important progression system in the game, but who gives a shit? I realized it, corrected and continued playing my file for another 2000 game days and basically "completed" most of the stuff available

>>716173323
If you played without using a wiki then you would understand. 99.8% of the content can be found organically.

>>716170263 (OP)
>weebslop
>good game
>pixelslop
>pixelslop

>>716173095
I wouldn't call Noita complex so much as cryptic.

>>716173259
>shallow
If DF is shallow then there isn’t a single game out there that’s deep.

>>716173401
I've beaten the giant spidery boss, I don't see how I'm supposed to figure anything else out

>>716173445
Which one are you calling a good game?

>>716173445
If you don't like pixelart you're underage.

>>716170797
>it's complex because you have to wrangle retards every single game
Holy fuck just kill yourself now.

>>716173308
It's not hard and is tedious thoughbeit

>>716173507
Just explore then.

>>716173552
>It's not hard, it's tedious!
is a cope and not a real argument to begin with

>>716173316
oh get the fuck outta here

>>716173634
I guess a game where you have to spend 72 hours pressing a button every 3 seconds would be the most complex game ever made. Tedium is the new difficuly and complexity.

>>716173634
It's a perfectly adequate argument. Being tedious does not a complex game make.

>>716173550
I like well made pixel art.

>>716173634
Imagine a game where all you have to do is flip a coin and get heads 12 times in a row.
Is this hard or tedious?

>>716173552
You played a game you find tedious for 1400 hours? Uhuh…

>>716173551
So dwarf fortress?

>>716173726
>>716173738
>>716173784
except i didn't say anything about complexity in the post you replied to
try again

>>716173743
I almost passed over Noita because of its pixelshit presentation desu.

>>716173784
After hour 4 it's hard, you should be able to reasonably flip a coin with a certain force to almost guarantee a certain result

>>716173784
It's both. They're not mutually exclusive.

>>716173743
That’s not well made, they just used a filter on top of a real picture.

>>716173819
Complexity and tedium are not mutually exculsive

>>716173876
relevance?

>>716170263 (OP)
I can never get into games with too many choices like that. I need things nice and linear

>>716173743
>first game has kino animated pixel art cutscenes
>second game drops it for generic cartoon style cutscenes

hated that shit

>>716173819
You really can't remember where the reply chain started? No wonder you think Noita is complex.

>>716173901
You brought up complexity sir I was talking about difficulty and tedium.

>>716170263 (OP)
how are these more complex than CS2?

>>716173909
same, i have all of those games and I dropped all of them after 4 hours or so, they’re too overwhelming…

>>716173975
may you show me where I mentioned complexity here?
>>716173634

>>716174016
>>716173819
>except i didn't say anything about complexity
When did I? Are you ok?

>>716173984
wtf is CS2? Counter Strike? I hope you’re joking lmaooo

>>716174058
>When did I?
here: >>716173876

>>716174016
>>716174058
Reported for flaming the thread and samefagging.

>>716173795
I play alot of tedious games. Osrs, gachaslop, etc. I never said I disliked the tedium, it helps me mentally release stress. I'm just saying it's not hard.

>>716173995
I genuinely respect the gigaautists who can wring 1000s of hours out of these kinds of games

>>716173965
try replying to the post and not to the start of the chain in the future, hope this helps

>>716170263 (OP)
>we made our games look like shit on purpose

>>716173634
Noita is tough, but once you figure out the "tricks" to a consistently succesful run, it becomes tedious.
It's why I haven't played it in over a year now, it just gets tiresome to do 5 hours of setup to actually do some of the more obscure content

>>716174136
yeah, i feel a little stupid not being able to appreciate them, i wish i could understand the appeal…

>>716170263 (OP)
I dunno if i'd call Elin that complex, just obtuse. And its easy enough that you don't even need to care about the complexity unless you want to.

>>716174194
None of them look like shit at all. Have you ever taken a look in the mirror?

>>716174182
Try remembering context for an entire conversation :^)

>>716174329
context changes over time, did you read the post you were replying to or were you replying to older context?

>>716174294
Pixel shit always looks like trash

>>716174084
>>716174128
Am I talking to two or three people? The fuck?

Anyway complexity is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. Tedium is repetitive and or slow, which is not required to be complex or simple either way.
Things can be simple, complex, easy, or hard and still be tedious. also take meds you are putting your voices in MY head

>>716170263 (OP)
Caves of Qud is to roguelikes what skyrim is to crpgs

>>716174408
Psst, you're looking at pixels right now
Also at least two of those games are ASCII

>>716174501
>ASCII

even wrose

>>716170263 (OP)
You should play Gary Grigsby's War In the East 2.

I'd rather play Rimworld over Dwarf Fortress.
I'd rather play DCSS over Qud.
Elin and Noita are good.

>>716174424
three
i agree with you overall, my original post was referring to how people try to dismiss any difficulty as "not real difficulty, just tedious"
apologies

>>716170263 (OP)
I'm retarded and didnt find these games that difficult
Elin if you pick an op class and race like wraith/executioner you are basically unkillable, qud is easy compared to other rogues I beat that I think on my 3rd or 4th try whereas something like CDDA or unreal world I still can't figure out I can't even beat TOME as my builds are weak, DF what's to say it's endless really but not too difficult to set up a nice fort though it gets a bit dull quickly that's why I think something like rimworld or songs of syx is more interesting to play, and noita I'm shit at action games but I managed to get relatively far I wouldn't say it's complicated but it's got cool physics
dominions and older paradox games like Victoria 2, Europa IV and ck2 on the other hand are too confusing as the menus are too convoluted for me..I think everything is relative to what people find complicated

I really really wish I could get more into Noita and Elin.
They just don't entertain me much, sadly, which sucks because I see people having ton of fun obsessing over them.

>>716174062
yes, or GO, or pretty much any competitive team game
other people have already said it, single player games don't even come near in complexity.

>>716174605
Nah, that piece of shit doubled the price of the game in my country.

>>716171387
Retards can't have opinions by nature. Sorry, bud.

>>716174897
>I can't even beat TOME as my builds are weak
classes that can semi-reliably beat Madness
>possessor
>temporal warden
>paradox mage
>sun paladin (fallen)
>anorithil
classes that are easy enough to win with below Madness
>oozemancer
>archmage
>summoner
and of those three ooze was the one that had an actual bot play it to a victory before
what did you normally play?

>>716174783
OK cool. I'd personally classify Noita as too tedious for my tastes but I don't deny it is difficult (at least in wand making, blind alchemy, and blind quests)

>>716171475
I love Qud, but CDDA is far more complex
>>716171435
No. It's just you paying for the last stable. Download the catapult launcher for free and hop on the latest experimental

>>716175327
I like having games on steam for achievements and hours played though…

>>716175183
It was some time ago anon I just played it class by class trying them all as I wanted to unlock them all, often I'd play berserker and archmage I think though I haven't played it in probably 2 years or more as I mainly play ck3 and hoi iv now

>>716173095
>no one says anything about Noita because everyone understands this game is genuinely too fucking complex, nearly impossible to beat without a guide
The main path should be done without a guide. Things, like the Sun Quest or all the Moon variants, I can understand needing a guide for given how much would go into finding all the pieces of lore describing them in-game.

>>716175183
Is that game good? Can I enjoy it if my IQ is 80?

>>716174194
If Noita didn't look the way it did, your GPU would undergo nuclear fusion.

>>716173389
It's rough coming from Elona and thinking that food buffs are an annoying endgame grind and then realizing that a random shopkeeper in Elin sells better food than anything you could ever make in elona.

>>716173401
>If you played without using a wiki then you would understand. 99.8% of the content can be found organically
thats just not true, this game lives off of community effort for how obscure it is (and i play it a lot)

>>716175951
yes, you probably could
just go into it with the understanding that the descriptions for the classes you start with or unlock early are lies
>Bulwark
not actually very tanky later, but it does a lot of damage
>Berserker
damage isn't that good, but it's easily one of the tankiest classes by virtue of having a skill that lets you ignore death
>Rogue
stealth is decent, but its best use is coming out of it with an AOE skill rather than something single target
>Archmage
piss damage, one of the tankiest classes with a focus on magic shields or making rock walls to protect yourself
>Alchemist
don't play this starting out
>Archer
actually fairly straightforward in how it's described
>Possessor (steam version)
also not advised to play starting out, but it is a really good class

>>716170263 (OP)
If Noita in this list, so should binding of Isaac.

>>716176326
>binding of Isaac
keeeeeeeek fuck off

>>716176272
not that guy i just saw someone mention tome and wanted to say that i play it using the gambit system addon, set up conditionals and auto explore each area while my character fights for me based on the AI I set it, it's comfy until I die and don't know what happened

>>716176326
I couldn't get over only being able to shoot in the 4 cardinal directions. WHo the fuck stomachs slop like that?

>>716176548
That's just the beginning of the game
the goal is to press the fire button and obliterate the whole room

>>716170263 (OP)
but they certainly aren't the most fun!

>>716170263 (OP)
SS13/SS14 are more complext than Caves of Qud i think

>>716170263 (OP)
StarCraft

>>716173445
Give Noita a chance brother, its insane

>>716175697
Your call. I always play experimental, but a new stable is coming sometime soon.
There's also the issue of you paying $20 for an open source game with that money benefiting the project lead

>>716176456
which one is it anon?

>>716173445
asciislop*

>>716175053
Poor, third world, AND dumb?

>>716176167
That's the 0.2%.

>>716177437
>>716175697
there's also Cataclysm: The Last Generation that recently just released it's a lot cheaper and seems a different fork, pretty sure you can also play it for free without steam

>>716171519
The game is so complex that you can't even conceive of the complexity of the game.
Memorizing what everything is and does is the baseline you need to start learning the actual game.

>>716171851
Pros of 2012 are roughly 5k level today.
Pretty decent, but fundamentally unompreasive players. Seriously, go back and watch some of those tournament games, they're pretty pathetic.

>>716178795
Yeah, it's available free as well. He shouldn't play that fork first

>>716171381
CDDA/Dwarf Fortress aren't really pure roguelikes

>>716179138
i was just thinking it's cheaper to try and he seems set on having something on steam

>>716178852
its not that complex anymore, just spam 1-2 heroes and youre fine
even russians can do it, that should tell you enough

>>716170263 (OP)
>No Factorio.

You had one job anon.

>>716173481
ding ding ding ding

>>716179649
Even spamming 1 or 2 heroes has an intense burden of knowledge, you're likely not realizing and if you don't understand the game, spamming broken heroes won't get you anywhere in the first place.

>>716179732
Factorio is OpenTTD for brainlets

>>716170263 (OP)
Tactics Ogre: Reborn is a lot more complex then CoQ desu

>>716181189
Easy on the contrarian brainlet takes anon, we already have the tranny avatarfag to fill the quota

>>716174202
I agree with this; I really wish you could get to the "fun parts" in Noita faster.

>>716174251
I tried playing Elin because I'm a huge fan of its predecessor (Elona) but it bothers me trying to move around in an isometric space rotated 45 degrees, it just feels awkward as hell. I get the impression the devs want you to rely on the game's pathing by just using click-to-move everywhere because the arrow keys are so naturally unintuitive when you can only move diagonally. It doesn't feel like it gains anything over Elona by being isometric.

>>716181381
My "opinion" is objectively correct. OpenTTD has deeper logistics and scheduling, with dynamic 3D terrain to play around and a greater focus on forward planning/future proofing. Factorio is still a fine game of course, by by its very nature its a lesser creature than OpenTTD.

>>716170263 (OP)
>Caves of chud
>Complicated

>>716170263 (OP)
Those four kneel to Aurora

>>716170263 (OP)
Noita is so fucking dogshit, the only thing the game is good for is making webms to impress anons that will never play it.
>doing anything but the regular ending is a fucking chore that takes +4 hours per run
>the first 30 mins are spents slowly waddling around trying to find a tp or black hole
>the next hour is spent clearing cave and gathering greek letters so most spells become infinite.
>next 2 hours you'll be eliminating as many mechanics as possible via perks because the game is designed like dogshit and barely balanced.
>by the end of those 2 hours enemy aggro is gone and virtually the only way to die is killing yourself or polymorph
>the next 4 hours are spent slowly tping around looking for orbs
>the next 3 hours are spent on ng+ doing the exact same shit
don't even get me started on the sun shit.

dwarf fortress is the most complex game and it isnt close

>>716182508
>roguelite elements are there just for the perma death and random wands, terrain is always samey looking and nothing interesting ever happens except for your world maybe not having 1 important setpiece or it behind tucked away in a corner where you'll never find it.
>once you get a fireball or trigger you just oneshot everything except bosses and when you get a slightly better wand you 1 shot bosses too

>>716181910
Being stupid, butthurt and illiterate must be hard on you, at least you're not the avatarfagging tranny though

>>716182678
It's an ant farm simulator and none of its complex functions have been fully implemented and perhaps never will be.

>>716170263 (OP)
Noita mogs all the games on that chart because it's fun at all skill levels and there's no annoying learning curve bloat period. Like DF and Elin suffer from the "it gets good in 10 hours" syndrome where you have to read boring instruction manuals and engross yourself in the games obscure systems.

>>716183060
Elin never gets deep, that's a lie. It becomes more repetitive and stupid over time.

>>716183060
>it's fun at all skill levels
No, because it has the opposite problem. If you learn too much, you are just wasting your time and the game is quite clear in letting you know that.

>>716182096
You know if a game is too autistic for 4chan its the real deal

>>716179510
He's a retard for buying either one

>Noita is fun at all skill levels
>Shitter playing noita
>spends 20 minutes slowly crawling out of the boring ass mines, dies
>pro playing noita
>spends 20 minutes slowly crawling out of the snowy depths
>save scums
>spends 5 hours breaking rerolls and the game
>no fun to be had after this point

>>716183060
Factorio is basically the good parts of Noita and Dwarf Fortress combined.

>>716183060
Noita actually gets BAD after 15 hours.
when you realize wand crafting isnt as exciting as you initially thought

>>716172572
They have not too long back added alchemy proper so witch is better and no longer only half implemented.

>>716176456
>it's comfy until I die and don't know what happened
Gunsnake, it's always gunsnakes.

I need to play Elin again. That was the last time I left work early to play a game

>>716175183
Madness is a complete meme.Nobody plays it except posers and cheaters. Why even mention it to a dude who can't beat the game at all?

>>716182508
>No one debunked this
so its 100% true

>>716178551
sorry for late response, was playing something
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2277386059

>>716170263 (OP)
please give me advice to beat Noita please pleaseeee i'm a fucking retard who can't into wands for shit pleaseeeee

>>716182508
The speed in which you do these things improves as you git gud.
>the game is designed like dogshit and barely balanced
Many of the high end boss monsters are designed to fuck with even god builds. The balancing works fine.
>the next 4 hours are spent slowly tping around looking for orbs
Make faster tp wands

>>716183268
It doesn't matter how much you know, if you don't at least have some solid skill, you won't ever be able to apply that knowledge.

>>716183534
>save scums
Lame
>spends 5 hours breaking rerolls and the game
If you do it right it doesn't take as long and you'll pick up in speed exponentially until you reach a power you feel satisfied with
>no fun to be had after this point
Being able to survive crazy bullshit wands you create makes for some pretty fun clips. Set goals for yourself to accomplish.

>>716188129
>make faster tp wands
>but not too fast because the bolt just disappears
>also not too fast because you clip into terrain and suffocate
>also remember to completely close the game and restart every hour and a half so it doesn't crash and loses your save
>also it's actually like 3 hours just because the world is massive and empty

>>716188226
>>716188617
>Never debunks the fact the game is only good to make cool-looking webms for people that don't play it.
wew lad

>>716170263 (OP)
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Also beats >>716170797 because you are 100% responsible for your own performance. No one to hold you back or carry you.

>>716188748
It is one of the big appeals

>>716188892
inb4 a fightan fag tries to disprove this
unlike traditional fightan
melee actually has more interactivity between players, hence more depth since when hit the game doesn't just turn into a cutscene

>tfw 42 hours into Noita and havn't beaten it once yet
i got so fucking close
also the daily random runs where you start partway through a seed with random wands and perks are the best part of the game

>>716189234
enjoy those moments before your first win
game becomes shit right after

>>716189083
I do respect other fightan games tho. They just ain't for me. I'm very bad at memorizing long combo strings.

>>716171382
Something about the isometric view puts me off. Played a shitload of elona however so I should play elin.

>>716188095
Learning how spells interact with each other is probably the hardest part, but building a decent wand early on is pretty simple. Wands that aren't random will cast from left to right. If you have something like double or triple cast it will cast the next three spells after it at the same time. Any kind of modifier should be placed to the left of a spell. Once all the slots in your wand have been used, it wraps back all the way to the left. It's been a minute since I've played, but some spells will have a "cast spell on end of spell" setting or whatever. Think of this as lobbing a grenade. You are casting a spell that will then explode into another spell. These are generally used for things like bombs or blades so you don't accidentally kill yourself. Don't ask me how the chainsaw and drill spells work, something about negative cast times so it makes them super fast but generally use up mana quickly. If you find one of those spells you should just put it as the first spell on the list and then mess around with stuff after that. Don't forget you can use the little rest area inbetween biomes to test your wands and see on the wall behind you how your spells are being cast and what modifiers are being applied. Or just fuck around and see what happens.

>>716173854
Post the picture.

For me, its CDDA

>>716171024
Kill yourself

>>716171024
Kill. Yourself. Moron

>>716173308
yeah it is tedious and a waste of time for a fucking *video game*
math is 10x harder but enriching in nature. i spent a year going through dummit and foote's abstract algebra and I'm a better man for it. learning gay ass retarded recipes in a game is a waste of a life.