Thread 720122716

Well?

>>720122716 (OP)
Could you re-upload that to your Twitter account, screen cap that and then repost it here?
Thanks.

>>720122716 (OP)
>AI replaced programmers faster than it replaced artists
ngl that's pretty ironic

>>720122716 (OP)
>Time required to learn to be competently artistic: at least 10 years and requires constant grinding
>Time required to learn to competently program: maybe 3 months

>>720122716 (OP)
>solo game dev
>succeeding
kek.

oh wait you're serious?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

juts be a genius in 1 field and below average at others

>>720122716 (OP)
He's right. Art barely makes money, meanwhile programming does make money. If you go from a dead profession to one that is active you are much more likely to succeed than going from an active profession to a dead profession.

It is easier to walk through the eye of the needle than it is for a rich person to get into heaven

>>720122870
>stardew valley
>balatro
>vampire survivors

What do these games all have in common?
hmmmm?

>>720122870
Zun did it.
You're a better programmer and artist than zun, right?

I wish I had enough determination to write a game, so far I can't even write a simple cms, even though I have the knowledge :/

>>720123065
They surely don't have anything in common with the million other solo devs who failed.

>>720122790
I'll do it if the thread doesn't get enough replies

>>720122716 (OP)
Art draws attention, programming (or good design rather) spreads the reputation

>>720122716 (OP)
Sure, you don't have to produce professional code to make a game with modern tools

>>720122716 (OP)
>experienced artist
re-word that as 'financially self-sustaining' and i believe you

>>720123242
>wish I had enough determination to write a game
If you want to become a good solo developer you have to get modular, which means >starting a lot of projects
>learning to write portable scripts - meaning they do what they're supposed to without relying on exterior contexts - you can introduce intermediate scripts later to bridge gaps between scripts
>learning how to use your game engine to your advantage - such as mastering Unity's Hierarchy, Transform, monobehavior and C# libraries

>>720123524
>'financially self-sustaining'
porn is not art anon, sorry you found out

>>720122716 (OP)
that's completely false
literally the opposite is true
every popular indie game has shit art while all the games with good art are massive flops

>>720122716 (OP)
Programmers are like the pages of a book without any words on them.
Fundamental, but 100% replaceable now - they were only a defining feature in the infancy of the industry.

>>720123460
You do need to understand design though. Every single parameter you add to your game increases the complexity exponentially unless you compartmentalize. That's what most beginners don't realize is they tie their shoelaces together and then just keep adding more shoes

>>720122716 (OP)
I'm an experienced artist....in blender

>>720123715
You don't understand how stupid computers truly are

>>720123778
Nothing wrong with blender
Better learn the fundamentals though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpqEE9yU474

>>720123656
Your words are completely at odds with human history and the amount of cash gooner games pull in.
Art has never been exclusively a high-brow affair.

>>720122959
/thread
it's like saying a peasant grandma is stronger than a cuck redditor.

in my experience both fields are very different and there is minimal overlap between skill sets.. That is, someone that is drawn to programming is very unlikely to have the personality and or eye to become a skilled artist, and vice versa. So I would rather play the game of someone starting as a programmer, because at the end of the day programming is the most important part of a game.

for example, pic rel. Very ugly but the game is fun and well programmed

Game design trumps both though

>>720123794
This reads like something Narcissa Wright would say before killing himself.

>>720123715
The logic of Ludo is entirely interior the mechanics of the game. Game companies like Bethesda which separate their writers and artists from their programmers and designers are fundamentally NGMI

>>720122716 (OP)
People who are "good at computers" are all dunning kruger who overestimate themselves

>>720123794
Are you angry about a retarded Indian teenager taking your job anon?

>>720123915
>>720123973
Do you make games?

You can always learn 3D.

>>720123962
same for every field that isn't mathematics.

>>720122716 (OP)
well this is bullshit because AI has made experienced artists redundant now
i can literally create works of art using some fags trademark artstyle via AI prompts and call it a day
i can generate endless AI shit and then trace it and claim that it's not AI if i want to
artists can get fucked

>>720123845
Blender ruined me
I got so used to being able to do most things with shortcuts I'm now struggling to learn unity

>>720122716 (OP)
I will not reply to your thread unless you make a reddit thread where you post a screencap of this thread and then screenshot the reddit thread and post it to twitter, then screenshot the twitter post and start a thread here.

>>720124025
Yeah and the gestalt of your work will still be bad

>>720123016
*for a camel
(eye of the needle was a small human-sized door)

>>720122716 (OP)
There is no universal rule for this, depends entirely on how good you are at each of those things, if your art style stands out etc

>>720124071
Learning a new software is a bigger hurdle than people realize. Going in blind without watching introductory videos and learning to read documentation you're really shooting yourself in the foot, there's a ton of use cases and parameters that you won't understand how to use

>>720124136
let's not kid ourselves anon, what it really means is "how big can you make the main character's tits, and how short can you make her skirt"

>>720122716 (OP)
0.0015% vs 0.001% chance of success, just do it

Coomer games and normal games are fundamentally different markets with entirely different player mindsets

>>720123314
Define “failed”
If you can make a living making indie games that’s a success in my book. You don’t need to make a super blockbuster hit to “succeed”

>>720124180
this is why devops is a thing.

>>720123897
It's not "very ugly" at all. It's rough and unpolished sure, but it has a consistent artstyle, passable color pallete, shit like that.
A true "programmer" artstyle is very atrocious and easily identifiable like this shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE36W7bmpc8

>>720122716 (OP)
only true for wegs

you look at shit like stardew and balatro, they were programmers first and just made shitty pixel drawings yet still were successful

>>720122716 (OP)
You can easily misunderstand the claim

It's saying an artist turned programmer, that means after the fact. If you're just an artist who wants to become a programmer and finish a game you will most likely quit. Whereas someone who's a programmer and not an artist will most likely never advance beyond programmer art, but they will finish the games and do better than artists who finished nothing. But finishing a game doesn't mean success as a solo game dev I take it.

Overall I agree if someone is both an artist and a programmer and they were naturally talented as an artist, they have an advantage. Being naturally talented at programming lets you make technically impressive things at best, but you won't understand appeal and how to attract players as well.

>>720123065
Eye for quality.

>>720124025
>i can literally create works of art using some fags trademark artstyle
>artists can get fucked
not sure if just a nigger or a failed artist
anyway, you will never generate anything of value, ai slop is always easy to reckognize, and will never be respected

>>720124303
The pareto principle is crazy in game dev. The bottom 80 percent of games don't make much money. Once your game is in the top 20 percent the rewards start compounding exponentially

The principle also works interior to the games development. Out of all the work and features you put into the game, 80 percent of your effort will not feel rewarding. It's once that final 20 percent comes together that you will have a sense of quality. You have to be tenacious and resilient against discouragement

>>720124345
the indian that made that slop in the post that you're responding to should have just used UE5 instead

>>720123065
vampire survivors has a team of 10

>>720122716 (OP)
TRVKE

>>720122716 (OP)
A talented one of either has a better chance than an "experienced" one of both

>>720123103
>artist
ZUN can't even bother to put in the effort now. Man's using blatant AI slop in the latest Touhou.
>programmer
Just take the same framework from the 1990's and copy/paste it every new iteration.

>>720124602
>pareto principle
ok jordan peterson

>>720123103
>Zun did it.
its not 1995 anymore.

>>720124695
Damn kid you got me, now go get to work

>>720124636
lmfao TEN? I could have made that game in my spare time

>>720122716 (OP)
Yes and no.
The experienced programmer will make a far superior game, while the experienced artist will more likely make a buggy as shit game that's all style and zero substance.

Who is more successful comes down to marketing, Word of mouth vs Visual flare.

>>720122716 (OP)
of course it's true. the code doesn't have to be good if it just werks. you can't hide bad art.
>t. vidya programmer turning artist

>>720124771
>I could have made that game in my spare time
But you didn't.

15,000 games a year come out on Steam alone. 99% of them make no money.
99% of them are solo devs.
wake the fuck up, you can go alone anymore

>>720124826
Sometimes talent can outshine bad coding skills in specific outliers like Undertale but bad coding is usually symptomatic of bad design skills which will most likely express in your final project

>>720124847
still, if it was me and nine korean models it would have been easy

>>720124938
Simply be superior, that's what people don't understand

>>720124971
at the end of the day neither is the most important. there are a gorillion ugly janky games out there that succeed simply because they're fun.

>>720124979
>still, if it was me and nine women to distract me it would have been easy
yeah, sure buddy

>>720125043
its not about quality, its pure luck.
there are thousands of great games that make no money simply because the market is oversaturated.
shit like Vampire Survivors is ten a penny but that game got the word of mouth and its moment in the sun so made it big.

Stop crying if your Stardew Hollow Knght clone doesn't make money, you may make those games to collect experience.
Game developers are servants to the player. Players crave inspirational experiences. You have to do something fresh

>>720125095
I'd say that you're fighting an uphill battle if you don't learn the fundamentals

>>720125157
>Players crave inspirational experiences
But only within their comfort zone. Just, at the edge of it. Find that edge and be original and unoriginal, it's that easy! And remember: good game will always sell. Trust in the word of mouth.

>>720125153
Luck is when opportunity meets preparation anon

>>720125208
that's true

>>720125225
>But only within their comfort zone. Just, at the edge of it.

Factually true. It's the anchor and the hook selling point. You have to at least figure those two out if you want a chance to succeed.

>>720124345
this, programming can look ugly behind the hood and it doesnt matter, art cant look ugly because its front and center. And even if its ugly there can be a style to support it fully to create a vibe that ends up working by evoking certain feelings or emotions

If you're arguing about "what kind of person" is successful rather than working on your game you've already failed.

>>720122716 (OP)
Artists sell games
Would you rather the fat purple femboy raccoon game or another forgettable brown female fantasy game?

>>720125496
If your taste is niche and you want to make niche games, keep your dayjob.

If you were successful as an artist before - that means you have already managed to find yourself an audience with your style.
A programmer? That's replaceable no matter how you look at it. AI has made both the generation of code and "art" available to the masses but as we can see with a lot of "Ai Art" - the majority of people simply lack taste and artistic level to produce something that appeals to people.
You could argue that Ai is probably the best thing that could happen to many artists cause now they can use Ai to generate code and enhance their own art on a new level. But someone who could only code doesn't really get the same results out of Ai.

>>720122881
>implying there is more than one path to success
ha! you didn't seriously expect the ragebait addicts to process this take, did you?

>>720124602
>The bottom 80 percent of games don't make much money.
*any money
they lose money. big time.

>Once your game is in the top 20 percent the rewards start compounding exponentially
sounds more like the top 3% or even less. a top 20% game will pay for itself, maybe give you several years run-way for the next game if you can handle your finances unlike san fran retards who will immediately go on a hiring spree and bankrupt themselves while brainstorming what to make next. but there's nothing exponential about being in the mere top 20%. you get a good launch and then very little to nothing after. for exponential gains you need to be at the top of the top so your game keeps selling for years without active advertising. it's truly rare.

>Out of all the work and features you put into the game, 80 percent of your effort will not feel rewarding. It's once that final 20 percent comes together that you will have a sense of quality.
big sad truth.

>>720122716 (OP)
by artists they mean the things we used before AI is that right?

>>720122716 (OP)
>a skill that takes years to develop through practice, repetition and research + visual graphic UI "game makers"
vs
>programmer spending 6 months becoming a dabbler in whatever "art"
The pleb can't tell the difference between cancer code and good code, but they can tell the difference between good art and bad art fairly quick.
Or some shit like that.

>>720122716 (OP)
Wrong because programmercore games need to be REALLY impressive for anyone to note. I'm talking shit like Noita where the programmer flexes all over zoomers face. Meanwhile artfag games can just be normal games with nothing impressive whatsoever and still make cash money

>>720122716 (OP)
Its true.
A game can be shoddily programmed and still good. In fact most good games ever have lots of shoddy programming and hacky solutions in them.
But outside of autismo magnets, a game that looks like shit, lacking aesthetic appeal, can rarely be good.

If you are shoddy programmer you will make games slower the market can shift rapidly. Sometimes opportunity only exists in a window of a couple months. A good programmer can shift their code into a different gear on a dime because they designed everything into a portable and mutable module

>>720122716 (OP)
The only reason this is the case is because they can just draw their own images on the side and then not have to worry about commissioning someone or using AI.

>>720123065
>What do these games all have in common?
they were all lucky, you gotta admit

>>720126291
none of these things you said mean anything to normal people

>>720126414
And competent
>>720126447
Holy s*** learn to learn

>>720122716 (OP)
I suck at both lmao goteeem

You can literally be a retard programmer and basically bruteforce your way through, it won't be optimal but you can make it work, unfortunately this is how most coding works because people don't care about the code they just want it to work.

It's way harder to do that with art because its so much more visually noticable, maybe if you used AI but then everyone would just >AI slop you

>>720126596
It's possible but can you afford all the time you're going to waste not understanding your tools when you could spend one week learning the basics of computation on YouTube and the productivity gains would last a lifetime

>>720126596
>maybe if you used AI but then everyone would just >AI slop you
yeah but can't you just go over your AI art with some modicum of nonretardation to hide the fact?

>>720123103
Zun's work got popular because of music, not his art or programming.

>>720122716 (OP)
i'm mostly an artist who've been making a game in ue4. I've read in several places that by using only blueprints, eventually you'll find a roadblock. But so far, and i'm pretty far into the development process, i haven't found a single roadblock. I'm aware that blueprints aren't exactly programming, but i can see how it's easier to learn something that has logical rules, as opposed to something that requires some natural talent like art. And you still need the skill to make a game that doesn't suck, that's the most important and most people don't have that skill

>>720122716 (OP)
This is probably true, but enterprise software guys that decide to make games usually start off making something that doesn't suit their strengths as programmers. Like, why are you making a Mario-like or a Zelda-like? Both of these games succeed for non-programming related reasons unless you count the more recent Zeldas.
I guess I understand it, you want to make games that play like the ones that made you love the medium but you'd make 50 times more money and more importantly get 50 times as many people paying attention to your art if you just made a 4X or some other kind of strategy game or something.

>>720126962
music is a form of art

>>720124663
It was the backgrounds, retardkun.

>>720126518
>And competent
yeah but there are many competent devs out there. Luck is essential

>>720125707
>The pleb can't tell the difference between cancer code and good code
No shit nigger, you can't see the game's source code while playing.

>>720122716 (OP)
This is pretty BS since some of the most popular indie games come from games with pretty lackluster art styles or the creator is not an artist
>Undertale: Toby Fox is not a good artist and has someone else draw the portraits in his games
>FNAF: Scott was mocked for how uncanny and creepy his 3d models were and made a smart business decision to Hail Mary his style into horror shit
>Minecraft: Notch is no artist at least not a technically competent one
>Stardew Valley: Okay pixel artstyle but a bit bland
>Lethal Company: Kind of ugly with wonky models but carried by its concept
There are exceptions like Cuphead and Hollow Knight which have very beautiful artstyle but you don’t need it to be a smash hit

>>720127515
Well, that's kind of his point lol.
He's saying you can work with bad code but you cannot work with bad art unless one part is really good and one part is really bad and you just hide the bad parts.

>>720127592
>>Undertale: Toby Fox is not a good artist and has someone else draw the portraits in his games
>>FNAF: Scott was mocked for how uncanny and creepy his 3d models were and made a smart business decision to Hail Mary his style into horror shit
if someone else was responsible for the art style, is it really a solo dev?

>>720122716 (OP)
Yes. Video games are just as much of a visual medium as they are interactive. Unless your game has a very interesting hook, it's going to fissle out and drown in the sea of slop if it looks like shit. Concord died the instant people saw it's character designs, whereas shit games like destiny sell because people see cool space soldiers

>>720122716 (OP)
no

>>720127827
Undertale is a dumb example by the other anon, because Undertale and Deltarune are not solo projects. Just have strong "auteur" vibes.

Cave Story is a better example, and that has good art, good music and good programming.

I think if you're a programmer only, you should keep the artstyle simple and learn what is an appealing simple style (even just pure geometry is fine), and go hard on a conceptually interesting and fun game.

i think most people would say Slay the Spire is kind of ugly, and that was still a huge hit.

>>720127827
That is my issue with being a solodev. I do everything, storyboard, programming, art, animarion, rigging, landscaping, world building, quest making, combat, enemy ai, all of it.
People like Tony Fox had literally other people help. I have me. I dont want help.

>>720127913
Both of these games had hundreds of “artists” so your point doesn’t really relate. Concord failed because it was boring to play meanwhile Destiny has an addictive gameplay loop. It’s called having good game design

>>720123314
SUCCESS WAS NEVER A NUMBER'S GAME
BAD RATS IS NOT THE SAME AS MINECRAFT
THEY ARE NOT COMPARABLE

>>720122716 (OP)
What?

>>720125513
without the programming, your artist cant do shit

its easier to use AI for art shit than it is for programming shit

>>720127913
concord failed because it was a paid game in a sea of f2p hero shooters

>>720124580
youve played games that use ai already and you didnt notice

>>720127827
>>720127947
The truth is that 90% of the work for Undertale was done by Toby Fox, while he did have someone else to draw the portraits the main character designs were his own. Suffice to say if it was just him Undertale still would have more or less succeeded due to the writing, music, game design and character designs being all his own

>>720122716 (OP)
I dunno, the best-selling game of all time is programmerslop

>>720122716 (OP)
True because art is a shit career for hacks destined to fail. An artist becoming a programmer is improving their life, while a programmer becoming an artist is giving up.

>>720122716 (OP)
I don't think it matters where your starting point is. Virgin game devs should really stop bitching and just put some time into learning art

>>720122716 (OP)
this is complete bullshit, we have like 50 years of gamedev history to look at and 99% of them were programmers turned artists

>>720128442
times have changed. If you want your game to compete with hundreds of games on steam, you'll need a distinctive art style. Or you can kneel and beg a streamer to play your game

I refuse to play indie games from 4chan because it's clear most of them are made by parasite tourists. If you want me to support your indie game you have to put "nigger" somewhere in the title, just a fact.
>but nobody will play it!
I will.

>>720129341
Yeah but who cares if you play it

>>720129341
I dunno, back in my day people always said "hide your powerlevel" and "rule #1 and #2".
What happens on 4chan should stay on 4chan, including 4chan lingo, it was always cringe when people brought 4chan terminology outside, but I guess nowadays that's commonplace since all internet culture merged together.

>>720129147
shitsong has extremely generic art and sold millions of copies in one day
gamers don't give a shit about good art, they would much rather eat slop from a nigger asshole

>>720122716 (OP)
Yep.
I'm a programmer/software developer, but I know that nobody cares what your code looks like at the end of the day.
Your game could be one giant, 10 thousand lines long, if-else hardcoded-ass state machine, and as long as the game looks, sounds, and plays good, that really doesn't matter.
Of course, depending on the kind of game you are making, technical acumen will matter more or less, the game has to be at least decently playable and functional, but beyond that, presentation matters a whole fuckton more.
Now, if you are a great artist and programmer, that's when you can do some funky shit by using the technical aspects to create truly novel stuff on the gameplay and presentation front.

>>720124938
99% of those "games" are abhorrent unity asset flips with literally nothing special going for them

>>720129396
I do.

>>720129519
Hiding your power level means don't talk about 4chan to anyone not don't pretend to not be a racist, retarded cowards mutated it into that so they could pretend not to be retarded cowards.

>>720129519
Yeah, I remember back in like 2011 or 12 there was a trend of people using le epic may may arrows outside of 4chan and it was considered immensely gay.
Most of the people who started using this site after 2014 at the absolute latest are like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ0A7yOf3do

>>720124180
I have been trying to get into Blender a good handful of times over the past ten years, but I just can't seem to get further than the most basic starting bullshit.
Doesn't help that there aren't any good written manuals and I have to watch some absolute faggot on y*utube talk with his faggy voice and constantly begging for subs.

>>720122861
retard

Wrong, both require the same amount of hard work and dedication
>b-but muh lack of talent
>b-but muh left brain vs right brain
Stop coping and get to work

>>720123897
>and there is minimal overlap between skill sets
Factually untrue, you can apply a lot of procedural methods to create art and music too for that matter. And by procedural I mean a small set of rules you should follow as you create something and it doesn't matter if you're doing it manually or automating it with code. It's just vector math, physics and simple trig functions at the end of the day, with some general do and don'ts you learn through experience and analyzing other people's art. Exactly like game dev.

>>720122716 (OP)
Yes and this doesn't change with AI because AI will spit out code but it can't give you an interesting vision for a game.

Good artists are like very shitty, slow magicians, they are trained in perception management and attention grabbing which are essential for selling media in an overcrowded market.

>>720129653
>Hiding your power level means don't talk about 4chan to anyone not don't pretend to not be a racist,
It also means not sperging out for no reason and acting IRL the same as you'd act online on 4chan.
I don't need to wear a shirt that says NIGGER in public to be racist, I can just cover my pockets when I pass by an immigrant like a normal person.
You have the mentality of a child. If you really cared about your stupid political views you'd try to make a compelling message about immigrants in an actual proper game, not make "NIGGER KILLER SIMULATOR 2025".

the brain setup needed to be a good artist is rarer than for being a good programmer so by this alone the statement makes sense yea

>>720127351
Yes, but in the context of vidya people treat them as separate components of the whole package of "presentation"
You could argue that design is also an art but to treat the terms interchangeably would just be confusing.

>>720130206
>I don't need to wear a shirt that says NIGGER in public to be racist, I can just cover my pockets when I pass by an immigrant like a normal person.
Same mentality as I had just described.
>you have stupid poopoo political views!!!!
I don't care faggot, I'll make my compelling message about migrants by normalizing beating them to death with hammers, then reddit troons like you would be next. All I have to do is make it become funnier and funnier for normalfags to emulate and it will happen.

>>720126447
Game devs aren't normal

>>720130556
game devs are not your audience

>>720130475
Oh shit, watch out, we got an internet badass over here!
But seriously, what you gon do, lil Timmy?

>>720130007
This is basically true, most successful games are typically something where the selling point comes across in a short video and the gameplay delivers on satisfying some human instinct and what makes that work evades even most of the people in marketing.
I still see so many games and even movies and shows where their key arts will just be the characters standing in a void instead of something that intrigues the viewer at first glance.
>>720129653
please take this gay shit somewhere else

Being a programmer pays better. Video game development isn't really a career choice.

>>720130615
My post wasn't targeted at my audience. Clearly

>>720122716 (OP)
>go to school for programming
>hate it
>drop out
>start working for my dad
>now I don't have time to learn what I actually like
Better luck next life haha

>>720122716 (OP)
You're less likely to be obsessed with technical achievements that don't necessarily make for a game with broad appeal.

>>720129671
Truly the beginning of the end.

>>720129580
>shitsong has extremely generic art
that's not what most people think at all

>>720129580
Does it? I still think it looks pretty good. I think the number of games like this one and the plague doctor game that are trying to emulated it have kind of dulled the edge a bit but it still looks fairly standout.

>>720123942
>Game companies like Bethesda which separate their writers and artists from their programmers and designers
/v/edditors are the dumbest cretins around the globe

>>720126596
Have you ever bruteforced your way into writing an interrupt routine, you little faggot? You ever bruteforced your way into writing an interrupt routine, you little faggot? No you haven't. Because you're a faggot. Ok? Why don't you go write an interrupt routine, faggot?

>>720123656
Gooners pay the most boi! Stay poor, continue living at home with your parents XD

>>720129792
desu ive used lots of software, and game engine stuff like ue5 unity, and modeling stuff like blender i think it by far the hardest software to learn.

>>720132231
Probably because you haven't learned to use your Shift key yet.

>spend some time making assets in Blender
>export assets to game engine
>work on game engine for a while
>forget what you've learned in Blender
>go back to Blender, re-learn what you forgot
>now i don't remember where i was on the game engine
Is that something that happens with everyone or do i have that much low attention span?

>>720122716 (OP)
An artist picking up programming skills is more likely to make an appealing game
A programmer picking up art skills is more likely to actually ship their game

>>720132620
Sometimes you gotta write shit down anon, it'll help you remember what you're doing

>>720132620
I can't imagine forgetting what I know in Blender but I make a point to open it at least 10 minutes every day

yeah pretty much.

i work with some legit artists and artists are artists because they have a drive to create. they have things inside of them that they need to exorcise. i'm not saying oh they're all tortured artists, even people who make happy fun shit still have that same drive. wherever they are, whatever they're doing, they have this need to express themselves creatively. it's not a hobby or a cool thing they like to do, it is as essential to them as breathing. if they're put into a situation where they can't do it you can actually literally watch them die in front of you, and then they start doing stupid shit just to keep themselves entertained like doodling on the break room whiteboard or whatever. pic related for example. this is the kind of shit you get when creative people get stuck in non-creative jobs - obscene, pointless amounts of effort invested in stuff that doesn't matter, solely for the point of doing it.

obviously if that's what's motivating you to create your game, instead of just "vidya is cool, i wanna be a game dev!" it's more likely to be a lasting motivation.

>>720126932
go ahead and try it.

i mean this genuinely. i'm a half-decent artist and there's no way i can match the quality of rendering that AI can do. i'd either have to shittify the AI by deliberately prompting it to draw bad or i have to make corrections and then re-gen over the top at low denoising to blend them in.

most people can't draw an apple if you put one literally on the table in front of them. just "fixing it" basically means you have to be good enough to draw it in the first place.

Worth noting, the experienced programmer would have a CS, SWE, ECE or CPE degree.
They would have a better chance getting hired at most game companies in suitable roles, and could work for other software companies.

The odds of making it as a solo game dev are so slim you're better off playing the lottery.

>>720129580
>whaaat? you mean the game which popularized the style has done it again in the sequel???? generic!!!
you're beyond retarded. remember to breathe, downie.

>>720122790
>Twitter
Fucking boomer holy shit it's called X

>>720122861
I really need to stop shooting my loads inside my Latina hoes. I just can't stop colonizing them though, what do?

>>720133353
after 7 years using Blender, i still forget some things. Like baking maps. There's always something you have to select/leave unselected for that piece of crap to work. It's never on the first try. If you watch tutorials on youtube, everyone explains a different process. That's why i started using marmoset

>>720122716 (OP)
Fuck if i know brahh

>>720122861
>Time required to learn to competently program: maybe 3 months
I highly doubt that

>>720134276
>whaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttt I dunn geddit!!!
you are retarded, kys

>>720122716 (OP)
Game engines have democratized the programming side of game dev. AI has the potential to do the same for the art side. In fact it might even be there already. If it isn't, it definitely will in the next year or two.

>>720122716 (OP)
Half true. Chance of a monthly income is higher for artist work if you start creating porn.

>>720122716 (OP)
Programming is the least important part of a good video game. Everybody uses off the shelf engines and writing behavioral scripts for NPCs in a video game is so easy that a monkey can do it. Creating something with genuine artistic merit, on the other hand, requires actual talent.
I'm a programmer btw.

>>720122716 (OP)
Yes, that's entirely true. Programming is a useless skill for making video games. Back in the day when games had to run on 1MB of RAM, programmers were valued because squeezing every last bit of performance out of a piece of hardware had noticeable impact for the artistic side of the game: it allowed for better graphics and in some cases audio. It was also difficult to do and not many people could do it.

Nowadays hardware is very powerful, no one cares about optimal performance anymore because it's not necessary. Your target audience gamer already has a powerful enough rig to run the game anyway. Hiring programmers is also cheap because of the "learn2code" meme. Tons of people ended up in CompSci because everyone believed that the software market will just keep growing. They were mostly right, except for video games. Video games market actually started shrinking recently. Despite this, a lot of programmers want to work on video games for LESS because working on corporate software is utterly SOULLESS.

Furthermore, there are many game engines that include generic solutions for problems. Those solutions, while suboptimal, cover almost all possible use cases and require only some minor scripting from the developer at worst. The ability to draw well, compose good music or make good 3D models will ALWAYS be better for video games.

>>720122716 (OP)
Isn't it easier for a good programmer though? You could just use premade assets and commission an artist to make the important art. Shit you could just learn photoshop and use AI, as a programmer you're already halfway there. Proper studios use placeholders or very crude assets to test and develop the gameplay anyway.

As an artist you have nothing, you don't even know where to start, all you have is a bunch of concept art and character designs. Even being an "idea guy" is better for making a game solo because you are forced to take a holistic approach and not focus on one aspect.

>>720122716 (OP)
Only if you make shitty 2d indie games. For 3D you have to be a good software engineer or you will not make it at all. Plus is cheaper to hire artfags than programmers

>>720135149
>You could just use premade assets
Makes your game look like shit
>commission an artist to make the important art
More expensive than you think.

>>720122716 (OP)
>minecraft
LMAO OP on suicide watch for being a retarded "artist" tranny

>>720133903
so you have to basically cripple the ai to get away with it, damn. i didn't wanna believe it, but that makes sense.

>>720122861
Truth nuke
A lot of programmers just learn on the job
Art requires practice and refinement

>>720135735
art you learn on the job as well though. you can't improve in a vacuum just doing what you like. same applies with programming too. it all boils down to professionalism where your feelings on what you like don't cloud your judgement and you critique your own work to find ways to improve. 10 years is honestly what it takes for both to be good. i'm willing to bet that's just what it takes to be good at anything.

>>720124025
You get a bunch if art that doesn’t work with each other in any way. let me know when you can get ai to fully model 500 different somethings that all coherently work together
Meanwhile you will soon be able to ask ai to send you code that work under parameters that does work

>>720126962
He's good at art though.
Nigga does (did) aesthetic background with stock images and character designs that get popular despite his... artstyle.
Most programmerbros can't even design a good looking character in videogame character editors, and everyone seen how codemonkey graphic design looks...

>>720135831
Bro it’s called being a code monkey. Anyone can code, and most games you like aren’t even coded that well. How often have you heard the phrase “spaghetti code?” Miyazaki when he first got hired into fromsoft did coding with zero experience and got the hang of it fast. not everyone can make beautiful memorable art

>>720122716 (OP)
I'd rather just hire a programmer so I can place all my focus on the real muscle work (art). I think the one man indie developer meme really clouded the perception of game design. It takes more than one person to make a good game. Even the so called "one man" indie games like Undertale had a couple of shadow artists working on the shit Toby couldn't do.

>>720136129
you've got this completely twisted. yes spaghetti code exists and people can learn shit fast. but not everyone can make that sustainable without melting down. how many times have you heard of games being filled with bugs, released as an unfinished mess, or just straight up got abandoned by their developers? for each miyazaki there's like 10 thousand dudes who said nah i'm out. think how fucked cyberpunk was on release, and that's not some random group of people they had enough cash to get the best developers. if you're indie you have to be careful with that underestimation. same applies to art too is all i'm saying. you can cobble up boilerplate and assetflip, both are fine. that's just rapid prototyping and blocking things out, but i don't think either one is faster or easier to do. like i'd rather bash my head at the screen on making my art more polished than try to debug code, but that's just me. i think coding is not that fun to do, even if it's easier, so it cancels out the notion of difficulty.

>>720129597
Yeah this thread is straight cope from stem losers that can’t handle their job isn’t the most important.
Pretty much every 10/10 game is a mess under the hood because all that matters is “ does it work?” “Okay continue “
Everytime i see some retard on twitter go on and on about how good they are at coding i go straight to their projects and its unreleased bullshit because they probably spend an absurd amount of time perfecting the shit because these code niggers don’t care about the product they care about feeling superior for being so big brain to spend countless hours on shit that doesn’t matter for no reason except to lord over things that do release.
I saw this person laugh at how badly coded the Minecraft multiplayer is, and its like bro
You haven’t released anything, Minecraft is the highest selling game of all time.
Literally what weight does your opinion hold?

>>720135006
No one is going to play your slop if it just has good art. It needs good game design and/or writing. Art is probably the least important part of a game

Hm. One of the biggest problems in art is that progress in it can't really be studied numerically as opposed to programming which has benchmarks.
Progress in art tends to be very "zig-zaggy" which can be pretty demotivating during the valleys.

>>720136675
>good game design and/or writing
Yes, and neither of those things have anything to do with programming. Programming is unimportant.

>>720136631
If you want to get into computers, go for networking.
Don’t be a code ape, trust me
Your job will be around much longer, and pay more

>>720122716 (OP)
>Artist turned programmer
Pretentious game with often dull or deriving mechanics.
>Programmer turned artist
Game that never comes out
Experienced musician turned programmer historically shits on both. Art is the easiest thing to outsource and still end up with a good game.

>>720122790
Truly one of the worst blights to this website. Now there's a slop economy of attention whoring and clout farming and every next thread is of that quality. There are few good things that escape the reach psyops and terrible forces. All things must conform to the asbolute most cancerous trends. This place used to be free of that, but it's dead now. A walking corpse.

>>720122716 (OP)
successful gamedev is 99% things other than programming. so of course

>>720136862
Good game design and programming do go hand in hand to some degree. It’s the means to execute the design. If you make a strategy game and the AI is fucking brain dead you failed at programming it and it ruined the design

>>720137184
Well yeah engines pretty much do most of the work.
This is not the 90s anymore, indie fags are not john carmack trying to figure out how to make graphics appear as if they are on different floors when you’re on the first lol

I see game as belonging to two types.
A game can either wow in screenshots and short video, or hook itself into your brain with its gameplay loop post-demo.
Most games succeed based on how much they can tap into human nature as opposed to their quality, and artists and programmers have their own ways of doing both.

>>720137098
I also find it ironic that those sorts basically worship this place and yet act as the most destructive force to it. Pearls before swine.

>>720137368
yup. you'd be surprised (or not) how much of gamedev is just buying code and bolting it on.
there are a shocking number of successful games released by guys who basically cannot program.

Artfags are beholden to engine code. Their vision will never come to live unless a code monkey makes it render everything so.
>But muh open source engines
Truly a bane to art direction. There’s a reason every game looks so bland and generic and like low performing blurry laggy shit

>>720122847
not really, programmers can use AI effectively, while non programmers can't, is harder than saying "make me a game about mario if he black"

>>720122716 (OP)
It doesn't matter because with AI the playing field when it comes to skills has been leveled

>>720122716 (OP)
>programmer
>use IA to make art
>shit on retards
GG

>>720138169
>Truly a bane to art direction. There’s a reason every game looks so bland and generic and like low performing blurry laggy shit
Silksong - Unity.
Clair Obscur - Unreal Engine.
These are the best games of the year, and there's nothing making the engine from scratch would have done other than have the games cost 50x more development budget.

>>720138169
>Truly a bane to art direction. There’s a reason every game looks so bland and generic and like low performing blurry laggy shit
>uuuuh I don't like how the default materials with default lights and default shaders look in this engine
>I should start writing an engine from scratch, I only need a map editor, a file manager, a build system, import tools, an animation system, physics, custom shad- ooooh

>>720122716 (OP)
a good artist with no programming experience can make a walking sim or a vn
a good programmer with no art experience can make dorf fort

>>720123897
>because at the end of the day programming is the most important part of a game.
retard

>>720138518
Clair Obscur clearly needed good coders so the game would actually run well idiot this isn’t a claim to make your own engine(though it would help immensely) look at all the other unreal games that run and look terrible. It wasn’t because they didn’t “art” hard enough. Even something like Silksong that is mostly hand drawn 2d assets can’t just slap whatever lighting Unity comes packed with or it would look like shit and had to write something custom for the game

>>720137964
>there are a shocking number of successful games released by guys who basically cannot program.
all of them evidently

programmer in general don't understand that game design is another artistic skill. They just think
>making a platformer is so easy to code, I just need pretty art and I can easily make the next hit!

>>720122716 (OP)

Programming is something anyone can learn if they have a triple digit IQ. Art is not. Art requires you to have a visually creative mind, and most people simply don't have that.

>>720139651
yeah. afaict, programming is useless or worse when it comes to making a successful game.

of course if you're a AAA studio with a nine digit budget, that's a different situation.

>trying to learn programming when i never learned high school math
its over bros...

>>720141342
then learn high school math?
are you stupid?

>>720122716 (OP)
people care more about aesthetics than gameplay so yeah this tracks

>>720123065
and then a wild AI appears!

>>720139002
A pretty game that's buggy and plays like shit is annoying. Nothing like booting up some 2D indie game and the fans start spinning louder than playing 2077 on high settings

>>720122716 (OP)
No, it is a massive cope. In the end you need to do both, so it doesn't matter where you start as long as you can pull off both.
And I would say left brain devs often can create passable art while right brained artists can't understand a pointer to save their fucking lives, so unless you are doing some basic bitch pixelshit that needs 0 effort, artists are not doing the programming part period. Also it is probably easier to use AI as a crutch for art than for code, since you need to actually be able to code a little to fix the mess regurgitated by chatgpt, so the game would at least compile.

>>720125153
>>720124938
Most of them just look at the most popular/profitable games and try to copy it

generally people will tolerate a poorly-programmed game so long as it's interesting to look at. they will not tolerate a well-programmed game that's ugly to look at. people are visual rather than mechanical.

Why do idea-bros who think their lack of art skill is what is holding them back? touhou, black souls, etc all have ugly as sin art yet theyre very popular, it feels like people just like to make up excuses for why they can't put in any work. if they use AI art (which is basically a death sentence right now for a game), then theyll come up with another excuse for why they dont have the time or energy to actually risk failing at something

i think part of the reason ai art has become so popular is due to dopamine addiction, people cannot fathom having to not immediately get what they want, "oh im making a dnd character and i want a portrait but i dont want to pay someone to do it" as if theres literally 0 other options

>>720143212
Just use AI art and don't tell anyone lol

>but people will know!
Usually not, and definitely not if you have even basic editing skills to fix anything weird it does. Then just do something else with it. People who always bitch about AI art having an obvious style don't know wtf they're talking about, and then in the next sentence they'll bitch about people using it to copy the styles of different artists. Pick 1. These people still argue that it just makes collages of other images haha

>>720143031
>laughs in dwarf fortress, cdda, starsector, cave story, touhou, expedition 33 since apparently they use premade assets, prerrendered 2D games, and honestly any pixelshit you can use aseprite to pixelize photographs and turn into sprites.
And that is not even counting AI.

>>720138426
art fags can use ai to debug their code, so what's your point?

>>720122716 (OP)
An experienced AI promt engineer has better chance than both

Why does everyone want to be a solo dev and not work with others? It's hard, risky, and you're basically limited to making low poly or 2D slop.

>>720135831
>art you learn on the job as well though
holy copium. You can stop now anon

>>720143897
Good luck debugging something you don't understand.
You might get lucky for a 500 line snippet of code and get it to run out of the box. You won't for a 100k application

>>720144053
That's not a real thing lol

>>720144086
Because working with a team takes money, and if you have a bunch of guys working for free with different levels of actual passion for the project then they're going to work at different paces and other such things

>>720122790
You need to end your life, kid

>>720141342
you don't need to know math to program basic stuff

>>720144127
You just don't wanna see it, but they start off as assistants polishing up someone else's work. you're the one coping.

>>720144149
art fags don't need to get into coding, visual scripting is enough most of the times.

>>720143212
I cannot even imagine being good enough at 2D art to match the stuff found in Touhou and Black Souls. I don't really understand how that's even a thing that humans can learn to do, and none of the instructional resources I've found have done anything to demystify it.

AI doesn't seem particularly useful unless you're making a visual novel or something.

>>720144086
On the other hand, if you go solo you don't have to deal with lazy incompetent idiots delaying you, retards trying to impose you their stupid ideas, whimsy artists that do whatever they want instead of what you asked for, that one idiot that keeps asking for you to casualize the game because he can't double jump to save his fucking life; and, if your studio reaches a certain size, the useless women you are forced by law to hire just to get your balls busted with nonsensical non-issues, and your time wasted with useless meetings.

>>720144468
Yup, visual scripting is the only reason I'm working on a game right now
Did programmers really program a program so user friendly that it made a certain type of programmer obsolete?

>>720144468
If it is a simple game, sure. But if simple games are the matter, even a dev with two left hands can draw some Black Souls or ZUN-tier art, or ASCII art like dorf fort, and make it if the rest of the game is up to par.

>>720144728
not every game needs to be an rpg anon. You can make cool stuff with visual scripting

>>720122716 (OP)
Successful solo game dev is an extremely rare occurrence, there are no statistics for such thing.

>>ITT experiencelets telling people that one of the hardest multidisciplines is actually le easy
Every discipline that AI can be used requires actual understanding of the concept in order to apply effectively. AI doesn't know what a game is, it doesn't know what a controller is. You can ask it to code your inventory system but even after you debug it you still have to fit it into your overall design intentions and then play test the game and make adjustments so that it's fun and comprehensable for humans

>>720145020
It's still a skill multiplier though. Someone with absolutely zero skills probably won't get much use out of a power tool, or they'll even cause more harm than good. But someone with basic or decent skills using a powerful tool will get much greater results than that person using weaker tools.

>>720144573
Start just drawing what you see, as you see it. Also draw something you like, drawing too many stupid boxes will burn you out before you even begin. I mean, eventually you will use those circles and boxes to construct but
Ahhh you are right, it is all hopeless. Just pose 3D models, trace them and use the squiggly lines whose weight and form you can adjust in SAI to fix the mess.

>>720127115
>And you still need the skill to make a game that doesn't suck
well that's true. You can get away with crappy art style if your game is solid, like picrel. But programing skills ≠ good game. You need to be creative to make a good game, and that's usually a skill that artists inherit

>>720145348
Yeah I agree but people will still like seeing hand crafted sculptures after 3D printing is introduced

>>720122716 (OP)
It's true because being an experienced artist usually comes with an established online following so you have a fanbase before you even start making your game. There are comparatively very few people who are famous because they are programmers.

>>720144086
because programmers have a god complex and always try to hijack the project.

>>720146682
That's programmers are the essence of ludo

>>720122847
>AI games with 99% art already exist
>AI games with 99% code do not
hmmm

>>720123065
you somehow forgot
>fucking minecraft
terraria too kinda

>>720144086
A lot of people kind of overreact when presented with this question, but the biggest reason is because people's motivations and situations in life can change quickly and if they leave, you're shit out of luck if you're only doing rev share.
Solo dev ensures that the project will continue for as long as it is feasible for the developer and only that developer.
It's logistics; while more people ensures that a project (often of greater scale) can be completed in theory, when it ends up being in practice is creating one more weak link on the chain powered. Motivation is ephemeral and delicate like a snowflake, what you need is discipline which is something that everyone has heard before but few people know just how much you need to finish a video game of a certain scale.

>>720147903
>on the chain powered
*powered only by short-lived motivation
Oops, deleted part of that blog post before submitting.

>>720147641
There are definetly games with 99% ai code. Its just a lot easier to see the 99% ai art. If its got ai art it probably has ai code as well.

>>720149242
burden of proof anon

>>720122716 (OP)
I fucking wish. I’m such a dunce I’m having trouble with GameMaker and all I want to make is a platformer as close to Mario Bros as possible for people to enjoy on their desktop. Now I’m gonna have no time doing that as I’m going to go job hunting again.

>>720144086
Do you really think someone who can only draw or only program can sell his vision and manage people working for free?

>>720122716 (OP)
if succeeding to you is money then coder always wins. i make a few grand a month on ai slop games.

>>720144086
working with other people on a long term project without any budget is nigh impossible, companies pay a salary to keep the team working together and it's already hard to get things done

>>720122716 (OP)
furfag games are emblematic of this point.
atlyss for instance. the dev was originally an artist.

>>720123065
That the three of them are shit?

>>720149283
I seem to have hit a nerve with that comment have I?
We know for a fact that AAA game studios are using AI code. Not much of a stretch to get to shovelware devs and indies using it too.

>>720141342
I hated math in school but barely need to use it for programming. Unless you're doing high level trigonometry for 3D rendering, you can get by with very basic stuff.

>>720150615
it is about how much of the workload can be offloaded. If 99% of coding can't be offloaded then the coder beats the artist because all of the art can be genned and worked around

>>720150189
Lol no you don't idort

thats because art is more difficult than coding
especially if you're the kind of autist that browses /v/

>>720122861
Programming is something anybody can learn, even a retard low IQ, but art is not the same. You need the aptitude for it... Or just use AI. In fact you can use AI for programming and art now too. lmao

i know only two good games made by pure coders - tetris and portal

>>720144086
Lots of reasons, all selfish
Working with other people means reality will hit you a lot harder and a lot earlier:

>You actually need discipline because you will have deadlines and obligations.
>You need to admit what's good and what isn't about your own ideas -
>or even articulate them at all rather than keeping them as vague feelgood fuzzies in your mind.
>Things that you don't want to think about will actually need to be dealt with for your team's sake e.g. marketing your game, or keeping it politically correct

>>720150938
Dwarf Fortress. but coding wasn't really his strength, mathematics was

>>720122716 (OP)
That's not true several successful developers were programmers but it depends on the type of game you're making

>>720151347
Also, like it or not, every team needs a leader to operate well, and a lot of people who want to be leaders shouldn't be

>>720151347
>can't think of a single good reason someone would want to do it all themselves
you sound like a retard tbqh

>>720151715
But there is no good reason, anon. Unless you're a complete narcissist or a deeply flawed individual, you should be able to realise that the input of other creatives greatly improve the quality of your work.

In fact I would say you are the retard here, profoundly so, because having at least one other person to bounce/challenge ideas with is fucking essential.

just read the thread that already existed

>>720124112
>(eye of the needle was a small human-sized door)
Soulless American Protestant Cope
Literally this was just fabricated and it is based on no evidence. The statement was literal, not a reference.

>>720147903
Yeah pretty much. If you pay people and physically see them in the office it's a different thing, but online collaborations with complete strangers are fickle things. Even friends can lose motivation and bail on you, or just have other stuff appear in life.

>>720151960
Bouncing ideas off people that can offer advice but can't say no if you have a hill you truly need to to die on is fine, losing control of your ideal game because you have no faith in your own ideas and need someone to babysit you is, however, the very recipe for unremarkable mediocrity.
I am 100% sure Pixel, ZUN, the guy from Lisa whose name I forget, or those crazy solo eroge jap devs wouldn't have gotten anywhere if they had to wait for a circlejerk cadre to okay their craziest ideas.

>>720147641
the fact that you can't tell which games are 99% ai coded is telling

>>720135149
Pre made assets are very distinct. 99% of the time it's obvious when someone is using asset packs. We literally have a term for that (asset flip game)

>>720134279
nuh-uh its called xitter