Thread 721043031

We had Boomer Shooters, when will we have that sort of genre but for Stealth? Games about hardcore stealth, why aren't indies making them?!

such a contradictory genre.
if the game has an actual punishment for being detected, it'll end up being more engaging than the stealth gameplay.

>>721043031 (OP)
Stealth mechanics are harder to program and implement than games about pointing a dot at people's heads and left clicking.

>>721043031 (OP)
>shit nobody wants enthusiast

>>721043507
>>721043567
they used to sell well back then, they just switched the stealth formulas of the most popular ones to be more action oriented and lost ton of people in the process because they stopped being what they used to be (also editors were expecting too much from these games and comparing them to the biggest action games sales)

Some niggers shilled that intravouvoesousvide game and the slealth sucked ass just shooting everyone was the best option
But if you make a game where you instafail stealth that'd suck too idk leave it as a side feature for better action games

>>721043031 (OP)
It's probably hard to make them, but there are some. I know Gloomwood takes a lot of cues from Thief, so there's one for you. Also, I don't know about the quality, but No Sun to Worship is clearly very much inspired by Splinter Cell.

>>721043031 (OP)
Idk what's a cool story or setting for one? i feel like we've exhausted it all

There are a ton of great stealth games if you actually pay attention to the industry more than just AAA Assassin's Creed slop you fucking tourist.

What about level based espionage games with different objectives.

>>721043992
i don't agree, i think the stealth is really great in these games although the top down view is kinda limiting

>>721043031 (OP)
>Boomer Shooters
>games designed by Gen Xers for an audience of millennials
What a profoundly stupid fucking term. Stop using it.

>>721044896
>There are a ton of great stealth games if you actually pay attention to the industry more than just AAA Assassin's Creed slop you fucking tourist.
I do, I just want more of them it's not enough

>>721043031 (OP)
Splinter Cell is one of the highest rated games of all time >>721043031 (OP)

>>721045353
Yeah i was unfair its not bad but its just infinitely easier and quicker to shoot your way through

>>721043031 (OP)
All I know about currently. And the progress on most of them are likely to be at a snail's pace. There's really not much happening. Last thing we saw was both intravenous games.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3674590/Noirmancer/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2514180/Excised/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2857810/Sleight_of_Hand/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2642850/Serpens_Eternal_Thievery

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3285390/Project_KVASIR/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3290690/Styx_Blades_of_Greed/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2800080/Thief_VR_Legacy_of_Shadow/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1162860/Keepsake_County/

>>721046075
Great list, first time hearing about Excised, looks very promising thanks for sharing, I'm also gonna add

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2889030/MUDANG_Two_Hearts/ AAA stealth action in Korea, seems kinda splinter cell
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2217860/Covert_Ultra/ Terrorist hunt with some stealth elements?
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2788210/DEEP_STATE/ Old James Bond type game
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1260940/Core_Decay/ Deus Ex like "immersive sim" with stealth

>>721044839
theres a ton of possible settings just randomly coming up with some now
>you are in a space ship that crash lands on some enemy or just very foreign alien planet that is hostile and you have to stealth to find your way off the planet
>some kind of like text murphy setting where you are a PI and have to break into places to find or plant evidence or something or follow people, stumble into something bigger very traditional noire story
>hollow earth is real and you find out the government is hiding it but someone in it kidnapped someone you know so you have to find your way in and find your way around the underground civilization to try to find the person who was taken
>cold war era ala tinker tailor soldier spy where you are in british or american intelligent and investigate possible soviet collaborators and have to break in/uncover/follow people and you uncover like a big network or something

i think the key thing should be violence basically doesn't work unless you are like just killing a couple people and can hide it.
could integrate setting up fake accidents to hide deaths or something as a mechanic as well but that would be complicated to figure out how ti would work.

>>721046552
>https://store.steampowered.com/app/2889030/MUDANG_Two_Hearts/
Interesting, was this originally Project TH? I was going to mention that one but I had no idea if it came to fruition yet. I just knew about a Korean Splinter Cell that another anon told me about. So a good catch for what I missed. Adding it to my Wishlist now.

I knew about Deep State and Core Decay but was hesitant to include immersive sims purely because sometimes their focus is not entirely on stealth and Excised looks like it places a greater emphasis on that part. Covert Ultra is some game that looks like it was abandoned, I dunno.

>>721047130
Yup it's the same game, they renamed it when they created the steam page along the official trailer that was showed in some conference
>Covert Ultra is some game that looks like it was abandoned, I dunno.
The dev is the one that made Maximum Action and he released updates very slowly, I think it's probably the same with this game

>>721047361
To add up to my post, I checked Maximum Action and it's still in Early Access with the dev still posting about updates less than 2 months ago on Discord, Covert Ultra is probably years ago from Early Access

i just want real sequel to Chaos Theory, why the fuck is SC held hostage for UBISHIT FUCK

>>721047783
>Netflix show releases in a month
>Leaks talk about the remake releasing in 2027

Too janky and low budget to be considered a real Splinter Cell, but maybe something to hold you over for indie games if you've already played both intravenous games to death.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2202470/No_Sun_To_Worship/

I dunno or you could just go back to a lot of the early 2000s reject games like Stolen (2005) or whatever.

>>721043031 (OP)
I can sympathize with OP to some degree: Hardcore Stealth games where a minor slip in operational stealth can escalate into fullblown fighting retreat to abort the operation and exfiltrate as fast as possible.

I do have one game that comes to mind for this specific genre
>Intravenous
>Intravenous II
its hard. its a top view stealth game, reminiscent of MGS 1 on PS1 but its pixelart.
I gave you options for games i know within the parameters given, OPpppppppp, up to you to do as you want with the information granted freely

I finished Splinter Cell and Pandora Tomorrow this week, they were fun
gonna wait a while before playing Chaos Theory, don't want to finish all of the good ones in one go

>>721043031 (OP)
I tried to get into Aragami lately
It's alright. It has the Dishonored teleportation, which I'm not a fan of, but it definitely feels a lot more necessary to the game design than it did in Dishonored and I don't know how I'd be able to remain undetected without it
Also nice that it has a score bonus for ghosting levels, always enjoy seeing that

I just wish it had more going on, there's basically no level gimmicks and therefore no variety. I got bored and just went back to Hitman. And speaking of which, there's no Hitman type indies at all. I guess no one has the budget to program in disguises

>>721045590
It's funny I'm playing the original again currently and honestly it's... ok. Very janky, some poor AI and finicky sections that seem poorly designed and gameplay actually quite shallow. In hindsight I don't understand how it was so highly regarded at the time, it seemed more like a decent experiment.

I think its fair to say it set a good foundation for the series. MGS2 has aged far better and has deeper gameplay. I haven’t played Pandora Tomorrow in over 20 years so I cant comment on that but I'll play once I finish this, but Chaos Theory specifically deserves all the praise the series gets.

>>721043031 (OP)
You already had two Hitman games, what else do you want, man?

>>721050342
We want Splinter Cell/Thief type stealth and not social stealth like Hitman.

>>721044896
>There are a ton of great stealth games
No there aren't. I made a list earlier and showed how barren it is. It's the hardest genre to attempt therefore indie developers are actually hopeless at it, hence don't come out much, if at all. It can only really be achieved by teams with AA budgets and with more talent than any modern day developer is currently capable of. These games need to be made at the professional industry level. The stealth genre is the biggest filter to exist in the industry and it's why so few people will attempt them. Lest they have their reputations stained for tripping over at attempting it.

I think there's so few because it needs so much more than a boomer shooter does to work.
On top of the already massive challenge of just making fun systems you've got all the other stuff that is way more important in a stealth game than other genre.
There needs to be interesting things to see and hear all over the place because you spend so much time being a fly on the wall. Things need to be engaging from a second person perspective and that's a hell of a challenge.

>>721043031 (OP)
your post pisses me off. why the fuck do you think a niche premise that had far fewer games and popularity would have the same revival as retro fps? are you retarded?

>>721043031 (OP)
I want a Tenchu game with the same shitty ps1 graphics of the original but improved draw distance and giant levels.

And it's generally things like programming AI as to why stealth is such a hard genre to attempt I'd might add. If you haven't noticed enemy AI in the regular triple A industry hasn't had any massive breakthroughs in quite a long time anyway. But it goes beyond that. I don't think most animators are capable of designing advanced versions of Chaos Theory's Closer Than Ever movement for example. The focus lately is to have movie/cinematic animations and less individual control or granularity of control over those animations. Designing an advanced sound detection system is likely to be something that filters them too.

>>721051010
>If you haven't noticed enemy AI in the regular triple A industry hasn't had any massive breakthroughs in quite a long time anyway

While now it it's definitely incompetence I don't think it was originally because they couldn't but more because it's incredibly hard to convey to the player how "smart" ai is when it's actually being intelligent.
The big thing is being outsmarted by the AI. By definition to be outsmarted you generally not aware of what is going on so from the players perspective the AI is just doing things. The big issue here is that it's been accepted into the zeitgeist that when the AI in games is acting unpredictably, even by design, it means that it's not working not that there's a failure with the players understanding.
In stealth game terms how do you communicate to the player what the AI is doing and why without giving away so much that the player can counter it subconsciously? Like you want the player to be aware of what they doing not just cruising through on autopilot.

>>721051309
>when the AI in games is acting unpredictably, even by design, it means that it's not working not that there's a failure with the players understanding.
I just don't think they're capable of that unpredictability in AI, that's what I believe that most developers haven't evolved on. But yes that is something that I think stealth gamers need to reorient their subconscious on regarding what they consider as the real tactics and rules of the game. People believe that it's all apart noticing patrol patterns and figuring out the gaps, but that shouldn't be the default of the gameplay. Unpredictability forces adept players into on the fly improvisation skills and it would make ghost runs more high stakes than ever if something is not happening like you planned it, you shouldn't be able to know if everything you did was rightly timed. There are some people very opposed to that idea and I think they're just holding the genre back.

The only way to get really good at those improv skills was playing Spies vs. Mercs by the way. It teaches you learned skills that would have been invaluable for when developers had figured out those kinds of AI systems. Or if you were around for when Thievery UT had a playerbase, that one too.

>>721051010
dynamic AI would only work in a drastically more subdued social stealth or arma type scenario. the thing devs have to grapple with is that one man infiltration missions into heavily guarded territory are absurdly impossible.for numerous reasons not least of which is the fact that humans frequently and unpredictably turn around. the closest you get to reality the more the contrivances of the genre are strained.

>>721050761
>There needs to be interesting things to see and hear all over the place because you spend so much time being a fly on the wall
You have this completely backwards
The vast majority of the time you are being a fly on the wall precisely because of this scripted bullshit that doesn't let you continue until the guards shut the fuck up and move away
Stealth needs of this shit, not more

>>721052761
Just a disclaimer that i don't think shadow intensity mechanics should be retired for pure realism. Since it is a good design mechanic. There are plenty of different ways to make dynamic AI a challenge.

>>721050696
there's no real differentiation between Hitman and other types of stealth mechanically. You're still avoiding sightlines. Only difference is that Hitman changes which sightlines are active based on context
"Social stealth" is a hilarious and nonsensical that implies you're trying to maintain cover through dialogue options which is about the farthest thing from what you actually do in Hitman

>>721054273
>there's no real differentiation between Hitman and other types of stealth mechanically.
How about using darkness and keeping track of how loud your movement is? two major differences in mechanics. People use the term social stealth because they don't know how the hell to categorise Hitman. But it's absolutely a different game. You have to be borderline mentally retarded to think they play similar. What's the difference? you're in sight of the enemy the entire time.

>>721043031 (OP)
It requires significant coordination and creativity that is more likely to end up as scope creep and subsequently an unfinished game that never gets released.
There's a reason that stealth is mostly a dead genre, it was expensive and required good thinking.
>Oh but a lot of games have sneaking now
Stealth elements make a game a stealth game in the same way that RPG elements make a game an RPG. In most cases """stealth""" in these games is just a way for shitty analog sticks to slowly line up headshots or to distract zoomer attention spans with ebin one-button takedowns.
>>721047783
>why the fuck is SC held hostage for UBISHIT FUCK
Major publishing as a business model simply doesn't work and is mostly a holdover from more oppressive, totalitarian governments like the French or the Bri'ish that relied on consolidating the publishing corpus of their country into a smaller quantity of culpable individuals who could be executed if they said anything inconvenient.
Unfortunately we are unlikely to see Ubisoft interred in the Bastille for their crimes, because we kept the bureaucratic burden that resulted in major publishers, but not the underlying motivation of keeping publishers lined up for a government firing squad.
>>721051010
Enemy AI doesn't need to advance that much, the problem is that level design, complexity and the illusion of intelligence need to be upheld and modern development can't do that anymore.
>>721052396
The problem is that the player still needs to be able to establish a connection between what they did and negative outcomes, otherwise you are just creating learned helplessness. Attempting "real stealth" would mean that 99% of players simply don't even understand the basic ideas needed to even understand what is happening, the stealth needs to be gamified and follow rules.

>>721043031 (OP)
Because stealth is gay and I'm tired of pretending its not.
Look if you faggots really wanna hide from men in the dark, cut the power to a gay nightclub and run around inside.

>>721043031 (OP)
UNMETAL exists

I also saw an indie with a female protagonist that looked like it was trying to emulate MGS1. It's there for sure.

>>721054641
>I also saw an indie with a female protagonist that looked like it was trying to emulate MGS1
name?

>>721043031 (OP)
I'm surprised we haven't seen some smaller dev team attempt to make a Splinter Cell successor.

>>721054724
they're all busy making Thief fan missions

>>721043031 (OP)
How bad will the Splinter Cell remake be?

>>721045426
NOOOOO STOP HORSING AROUND, WORDS ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS

>>721054719
I can't remember but it looked really good.

>>721054719
Sounds like Spy Drops

>>721054724
>haven't seen some smaller dev team attempt to make a Splinter Cell successor.
Oh they've existed>>721049281
But actually being good is another story.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1923080/Cloak__Dagger_Shadow_Operations/

The only thing that is acceptable is the Intravenous games, and that still has its constraints being top down 2D. There's like one semi okay Thief clone called Filcher. I mean I'd rather just play Thief to be honest. But at least it's something.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1355650/Filcher/

Necrofugitive is Stealth and/or Combat. Player choice based on your skill tree. I like doing a mix of each for quick kills.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1166890/Necrofugitive/

I'm going to learn game dev and make a stealth game in the coming years because it seems fun

>>721055461
Intravenous also has such robust combat that it doesn't really fall neatly into the stealth genre.
Going guns blazing while not encouraged is still loads of fun but it doesn't feel like a intrusion on the stealth the same way it did in something like Blacklist.

Retro FPS (boomer shooters) got a revival simply because any idiot can design them. I mean if we go back to the point of enemy AI, look at the actual enemy intelligence in every one of revival 90s fps shooters from indie developers and see that it's all terrible, just some basic strafing and beelining in the worst case scenarios. Just like the games they were emulating, so it's not necessarily a failure in that regard. It's more to do with indie developer capability and what they can do on their own. And it's not much, that's why stealth can't ever work.

>>721043567
Die zoomer

>>721043031 (OP)
Vast majority of devs simply can't be arsed to program proper stealth AI and all the knick knacks needed to fuck with the AI. That and they simply lack the intellectual capacity to cover all the infiltration vectors a player can come up with. Name a stealth game that has player detection in broad daylight when the player is more than 20m away from an npc. Blacklist sure as shit doesn't.

>>721057169
Just making a basic ass boomer shooter doesn't sell that well tho. Nobody talks about Prodeus anymore because it came out and everyone realized it's not even as good as many free WADs.
Wrath is just kinda boring to play and nobody even knows what Hellbound is.

>>721043992
The best of both worlds would be hardcore stealth and letting my fight my way out of it if I screw up the stealth. Making my movement clunky on purpose so I'm funneled into sneaking around is not fun and it's exactly they problemthe early Splinter Cell games had. Blacklist for all it's nerfs actually did a good balance of things. The mark and execute was fun set piece set up. The problem is they made Fisher invisible in BROAD FUCKING DAYLIGHT IF HE WAS 20M AWAY FROM AN NPC.

>>721044905
New James Bond game is probably the closest you'll get.
But I recently replayed that and besides being horrible jank and having too many unfun shooting levels, it was pretty neat, especially with how the hard difficulty added new objectives.

>>721049384
I only played 1, but stealth just wasn't fun. It was way too janky, ghosting was frustrating as fuck and eventually I just took all the heavy gear and went to town, which was way more fun.

Thieflikes?

>>721058513
the Hedon dev was allegedly doing one but who knows now.

>>721057780
Blacklist was just a terrible stealth game and it had no redeeming qualities. You were just an xbox x360 kiddy to think it had any redeeming qualities, but at least you acknowledged that enemies were dumb as a sack of bricks I suppose. If only you could have pieced together that this was due to the cover shooter/cover system that was tacked onto it and running around like an elephant stampede. That's what hurt Blacklist, the exact same crap that was in Conviction.

i find that mark of the ninja is the only stealth game i find it interesting to play with

>>721058763
That, that was horrible. I also meant he was invisible in broad daylight if he was 20m away from an npc.

>You were just an xbox x360 kiddy to think it had any redeeming qualities
No I grew up playing the OG Splinter Cells enough times to identify their flaws.

>If only you could have pieced together that this was due to the cover shooter/cover system that was tacked onto it and running around like an elephant stampede
The shooter cover system had fuck all to do with it. All they had to do was not make the AI shit and everything would've been good. The stealth even on realistic is just too forgiving. The shooting has no impact on the stealth. The same stealth problem that can be seen in Conviction and Blacklist can be applied to Ghost Recon Shitlands and Shitpoint.

Just play Peripeteia you dumb retards. It's the best indie stealth game on the market.

>>721058513
I've referenced some games that might be close to that in this thread already. A few unreleased. I don't even know what the hell is happening with Serpens.

>>721059819
>The shooter cover system had fuck all to do with it
Then you didn't play it enough to understand how it worked, maybe you didn't play it at all. But yes the AI itself needed to be improved. I don't disagree with that.

>>721060175
Again, you're blaming the cover system for what the AI does. The AI reads a that there is a cover flag on the player and ignores the player. This is a function that is handled by the AI not the cover system. What the cover system does is change the animation state machine, and probably a boolean, because that's how Unreal handles these things. And most of the cover animations are abysmal with the player sticking out way too far. Again, if the ignore flag was gone you wouldn't be bitching about the cover system.

>>721060029
Serpans looks like babbys first Thief fan mission. incredibly bland looking which is a double killer since the whole time loop thing means you'll be going through these environments more than once.

>>721043992
Intravenous sucked balls and I'm skipping the objectivley bad story and horrible level design, love letter to splinter cell my fucking ass

>>721043031 (OP)
Ever since they started putting slowly filling detection meters in stealth games, stealth games died

>>721057780
>unironic blacklist apologist
Neck yourself subhuman
BL is literally conviction 2.0 with slightly better level design, otherwise ot is a disgrace to SC series.

>>721060740
No. Blacklist is enjoyable despite all it's retardations because I had fun with it.

>>721057780
Blacklist is Ubishit saying "sorry, we learned from Conviction and have removed the stupid action scenes" and then they went ahead and changed absolutley nothing, added AC130 sections and first person sections to promote the multiplayer. Blacklist is ass and i'd unironically prefer conviction to it simply because conviction is retarded fun, blacklist is just retarded

I tried playing Thief 3 right now and uninstalled it after 10 minutes because movement feels like shit even with the fan patch that supposedly fixes the game, it's like Garret's feet gets stuck in something every step
give me some good fan missions for T1-2, I only played the Black Parade

>>721060890
The moblie app thing isn't even the worst.
Since they took the master server down years ago you can't actually unlock the best combat(lol) or stealth suits anymore since they needed an online connection to do the prerequisite missions.

>>721060850
Niggerlist haters are simply wrong, but not about the game being made by uneducated gibbons. The stealth is fucking atrocious, Sam is invisible in places where he should be visible and that can be applied across all stealth games. The cover system and the way it was made leaves much to be desired and the AI was nerfed to high hell because most of the level design is not very good at all. What makes Blacklist fun is the range of options I am given to handle things. If I want to ghost through it's a puzzle game, if I want to kill everyone and put their bodies in a corner, you can, if you want to rambo your way through, you can. I like this level of choice. Cope seethe and mald knowing I'm having fun in my corner.

You can't see me

As much as some people hate on Kojima's Konami team's late games: they did add some interesting quirks to Guard AI. The reaching for a walkie talkie or side arm was a neat little thing. I just wish we had gotten a dynamic AI like this but it behaves unexpectedly in every single way. About patrols, maybe individualistic behaviours to those shifts that they work.

>>721060836
>devours shit
>i had le fun with it
>hides behind gigashit image
Didn't ask, subhuman

>>721061270
To clarify i mean when you hold up guards by gunpoint as in they try to outsmart you and get out of a bad situation.

>>721061270
The fuck you talking about retard
Mgsv guard ai is shit even compared to classic mgs1-3 games

>>721061321
You were still told, regardless.

Are stealth games really that much harder to programme? Most games nowadays have some form of basic stealth mechanics, so surely it’s just a case of expanding on them?

>>721061768
it's a case of lazy devs being lazy.

>>721061127
>list of negatives
>"but it's actually good because it's not a stealth game!"
You're the reason action games have "stealth" mechanics and why stealth games are leaning more and more into action and "freedom of approach"

>>721061407
>shit compared to 1
That's quite a statement. But I never said it was good AI. Simply that it was cool that enemies tried to evade capture after holding them up. I have no idea how that worked exactly, it might have been a pretty simple. It didn't look too advance, I was just giving an example of things you could do to make quirks to guard AI.

>>721061768
Stealth games at their core are about solving a puzzle. You need to design the levels in a way that makes the player feel clever. Even if it was intended all along. Without necessarily being the ball busting level of difficulty "puzzle games" can give you.
Making a good stealth system is not quite the same as making a good stealth game.

Personally, I feel there isn’t anything wrong with combat being viable in stealth games, since most stealth games have scoring systems that punish you for getting detected anyway.

The bigger problem in stealth games is save scumming. More stealth games should encourage you to just roll with the punches and adapt. Hitman’s Freelancer mode does it right.

>>721061768
Stealth games need
>good level design
>decently challenging guard AI without being too OP or too stupid
>good use of light, shadow and sounds
>competent scripting
>cool gadgets that interact with the enviroment and levels
Shooters and alike just need to have good gunplay and AI enemies that shoot you (optional)

>>721062065
>Hitman’s Freelancer mode does it right.
>load into level
>shoot target
>run to exit
Come on anon, there is no incentive in Freelancer to go silent unless you pick an according prestige.

>>721061768
>Most games nowadays have some form of basic stealth mechanics
But those mechanics rarely excel at anything. Splinter Cell's entire levels are designed around its own mechanics. That's how you can tell the difference between real stealth and fake stealth. If a level is designed around light sources and floor surfaces that make sound essentially, every aspect of the level should have something to do with those two elements. Or with that in mind at least. Line of sight detection usually just turns everything into an action game.

What do modern games do? just have sight meter and not much else. There's not much thought put into the evasion part.

>>721062021
Yeah, but that’s a question of level design and balancing rather than coding.

The question I’m asking is it really difficult to code stealth behaviours when even the most low effort Ubisoft games have passable stealth mechanics with guards that can investigate sources of suspicion and can run for alarms during an alert phase. I can’t imagine getting something that’s closer to Splinter Cell and Metal Gear AI is difficult from that baseline. Even small indie projects like Intravenous 1 and 2 were able to get guards that move in formations during caution phases and notice when patrols are missing.

>>721062180
I meant in the sense that you can’t save or restart (without doing the Alt+F4 exploit), so you have to be careful since you can get overwhelmed easily in a gun fight. Besides, the point of Freelancer is to encourage you to alternate between playstyles between different missions. You can be sneaky in one mission and aggressive in the next.

>>721062524
Yes, I am aware of that, but it's not "stealth" in the sense as e.g. SC or Thief.
Hitman has a rather viable combat system, it is inherently built for shootouts. And the entire premise is that you are a Hitman. Being a true Silent Assassin is only the cherry on top, but not necessary. Your goal is to kill someone by any means necessary. Sam Fisher's goal is espionage, and letting people know you're spying means you have failed as a spy.

>>721062754
You miss out on the best rewards by not doing Silent Assassin though. Part of the reason they implemented Freelancer is because there’s not much incentive to go guns blazing in the main campaign aside from either being bad at the game, or just doing it for fun. Freelancer is one of the few times in the entire franchise where combat is rewarded in ANY capacity, and even then, the stealth objectives usually have higher payouts.

>>721061854
You are a nigger. Freedom of approach is a good thing. Incompetent devs halfassing it is the problem. Retarded level designers are the problem. Giving me a building with full freedom of aproach and how I kill, extract or steal something is the way to go. At that point is up to the devs to make each piece of the gameplay good and let me decide how I want to carry out the mission. This is called REPLAYABILITY. Do I want to go in guns blazing like a nigger and leave evidence behind, or do I want to do some NSA glowie shit and kill only one person and then fuck off like a fart's shadow. The choice should be mine. The game designer funneling me into only one way to play is retarded and so are you for wanting it back.

>>721063000
nigger this, nigger that, nigger shut the fuck up, you don't like stealth games, go play far cry, plenty of freedom of expression there

>>721062086
good gunplay should part of the stealth toolset. However devs just default to making a shooter at that point and ignore all else.

>>721062180
>there is no incentive in Freelancer to go silent
How about you choose to go silent. Why do you need an incentive?

>>721063049
>you don't like stealth games
I do, you're just too retarded to understand that going loud is also part of stealth. Really not my problem you have a nigger's IQ.

>>721063173
>nigger nigger nigger
look mom, i'm edgy on /v/!

People who claim that having the option to engage in combat makes something not a true stealth game forget that Thief gave you a sword, Chaos Theory gave you an assault rifle with various attachments , and most of the Tenchu and Metal Gear games have forced boss fights.

>>721063424
I love MG games but I would never call them pure stealth games. MGS3 is the closest we have to an actual stealth game, I guess.

>>721049809
The first aragami is more unique.

>>721063173
>brownoid hides behind anime reaction pics
Consider suicide, shiteater

>>721061879
>Simply that it was cool that enemies tried to evade capture after holding them up.
They never did that in mgs v, retard.

>>721063316
I accept your admission of defeat.

>>721063714
I accept your admission of defeat as well.

>>721063864
>an actual spic behind dogshit gigashit/anime pics
>an actual spic being a 15 digit iq shiteater aka blacklist apologist
Slit your throat.

>>721062964
>You miss out on the best rewards by not doing Silent Assassin though.
Like what? Some Hitman cash? Or were there rewards coupled to SA runs that I can't remember?
But you're absolutely correct, Freelancer actually makes guns blazing viable, if only because it prevents you from savescumming so it forces you to ignore your SA tism.
Although imo they should have just done it like in BM where you just couldn't save on the highest difficulty. But scrubs would have probably complained, just like they complained about separated camera curcuits.

>>721063792
he's talking about how guards will try to escape hold ups by knifing you and then drawing their pistol. You can tell which guard is gonna do it because they'll pretend to get their hands up and then immediatley try to lower them whereas normal holdups, guards will always keep them up as long as you have your crosshairs on him. Just dash into them, no guard will ever attempt escape after being forced to or ordered to lie down.

>>721064126
>how guards will try to escape hold ups by knifing you and then drawing their pistol
Once again, you blind fuck
This never happened in mgs v

>>721064173
https://youtu.be/Sr232yF4EMY?t=146
You are a retard and a liar

>>721063792
>They never did that in mgs v
They did. You didn't know that guards can sometimes try to reach for their gun? they slowly put their hands down out of the air and then take a pivot back and grab for it. It triggers the gay reflex mode (slow mo) into an alert phase for them afterwards.

Well I'm glad someone else had to correct that guy. Him calling me a retard because he didn't even play the game was more confusing.

>third person
Into the fucking trash

>>721064305
>player puts his weapon away
Hello? Retard department?
>>721064469
Now show me a guard acting cocky while you have a weapon in your hands, retard

>>721064516
>Him calling me a retard because he didn't even play the game was more confusing.
Neck yourself, subhuman.

>>721064545
I don't seem to have any issues with specific camera perspectives in regards to first person vs third person. Except I generally believe top down is too much of an advantage for players. Only really works for Commandos because that game is hard anyway.

Thief's peaking system is good, but at the same time I don't think everything absolutely MUST be first person to be equally challenging. The perspective doesn't really matter, the design does.

>>721062065
>Combat in a stealth game
>Nothing wrong with it
Holy shit, no words.

>mech stealth game
>run between buildings to stay hidden
>lean against building and tap on it to distract enemy mech
>glass shatters, powdered concrete fills the air, debris and corpses rain down on the streets below, people running and screaming in every direction, car alarms blaring
>enemy mech's impossibly loud megaphone voice: Huh? What was that noise?
>stomps over to where you were
>you've already slipped away
>must have been the wind

>>721063173
>Action is part of stealth
>2 completely at odds playstyles and philosophies
>Every modern game pretending it's a stealth game by allowing you to blast your problems away
You should probably go play COD.

>>721064629
If you notice, when you hold up a guard, you instantly get heroism points. If you don't that's an easy tell that they're faking it. It also takes a lot longer for them to reach for the gun if you do a normal hold up. But since you're a retard, I'll let it slide and won't respond any further to your shit

>>721063424
Let's see you play through thief combat only. Not only that, on higher difficulties killing is forbidden.
SC gave you attachments to your rifle but you couldn't last in a gunfight, Sam went down in 2 shots, 3 at most.

>>721043031 (OP)

Zoom zooms don't have the patience to play stealth games so they won't sell well. We could all use a new Tenchu game

>>721064068
My guess is that the reason Master difficulty only limits you to 2 or 3 saves rather than disabling saving outright is because the maps are so big and complex, so there’s more room for thing to go wrong. BM’s maps are tiny by comparison.

On the flip side, the main campaign is the only mode that allows mid mission saving. Every other mode (ET Arcade, Escalations, Contracts and Freelancer) all don’t allow you to save. In a way, the main story missions are a tutorial for all the other modes.

>>721043031 (OP)
>why aren't indies making them?!
They do, they're called horror games.

>>721065014
You niggers truly have room temp IQ.
>Go loud
>draw enemies to a spot(last know location)
>AI focuses on that
>go silent, circle around and flank them
I understand all you consider stealth is hiding in shadows and looking at your visibility meter, but proper stealth can be so much more than that.

>>721064708
Look at this footage please and shut up. What the hell were you doing for 300 hours and you didn't notice this? putting your gun away is what triggers it.
https://youtu.be/LS77YgQzyqQ?si=ZYSRF_GMQBC1rf9S&t=357

>>721065163
That's called a distraction you moron.
Going loud means switching playstyles to a combat one.

>>721065163
It all depends on whether you consider stealth only "being undetected" or "being unnoticed".
In your example, you are certainly not unnoticed, but still undetected.
And that depends on what the game is about. Stealing shit? Yeah, whatever, you'll be out there.
Doing spy shit? The secretary now has to disavow any knowledge of your actions while you now have a diplomatic crisis with the country you were spying on.

>>721043031 (OP)
Stealth is a niche genre. Of course these days more games are being produced than any one person will have time to play, but even still, you'll only occassionally get stuff like Gloomwood while there is a new 'retro inspired' fps being made every minute.

>>721065269
NTA, but personally, I don’t think it should be binary. You should be able weave stealth and combat tactics together.

>>721043031 (OP)
fuck the splinter cell remake, Ubisoft will balls it up somehow. if you want stealth play 'the outlast trials'. super fun with an awesome gameplay loop and endless replayability. it's been out a while but I only discovered it a few days days ago and haven't been able to stop playing.
it's co op too but I play solo cos no friends

>>721065163
>exploits shitty npc AI
>brainlet feels like a tactical genius

>>721065269
So switch back when you're done, what's the problem? You're bitching about having options.

>>721065325
>It all depends on whether you consider stealth only "being undetected" or "being unnoticed"
I want both. I want to pick and choose how I go about stealth.
Here's the thing. I want all versions of stealth in a stealth game. And I want the playstyle I choose to have an impact on the story and later missions.

>>721065359
Also I will add to this, that stealth has been in many way subsumed by other genres. So many games these days have stealth mechanics. Does a game count as stealth if you can finish most of it undetected or does stealth have to be the only option?

Stealth is one of my favorite genres. Outside of Thief, Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell and Hitman, you've got ????????? to choose from? Clandestine was pretty good, but that's all that really comes to mind.

>>721065538
>Outside of Thief, Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell and Hitman, you've got ?????????
Lethal Company was a stealth game, change my mind.

>>721064972
There is unironically a ton of untapped potential in a mech game where you primarily engage in normal mech action stuff but then switch to stealth and evasive gameplay on foot when you have to leave your cockpit to traverse tighter quarters or manually interact with tech

>>721065456
A stealth game should be dedicated to that playstyle.
At most, you can have consumables, spell scrolls, disguises, maybe a dialogue system or something, or some platforming/parkour system or something.
Your combat ability should be very limited to nom existant.

>>721065456
>I want to pick and choose how I go about stealth.
And I specifically addressed why that can't necessarily work depending on the premise of the entire game.
A spy that does spy shit without ever anyone knowing he was there just can't go "loud" because that way everyone will know SOMEONE was there, so you'll fail your assignment, because it is what it is.
So what you want is simply an oper8r stealth shooter. You're a specops badass who has all kinds of weapons and gadgets at his disposal and it doesn't matter if the enemy camp is on alert because you're there for demolition stuff or something like that anyway.
I distinctly remember a shooter that was like that.

>>721065538
>stealth is my fave genre
you have to try 'the outlast trials' then. the deluxe version is currently on sale on ps5.
the unkillable enemies are kinda like the alien from alien isolslatiom where they pop in, try find you and then fuck off again.
also you can add me through epic and we can play :D

>>721065204
>putting your gun away is what triggers it.
No shit retard
>what did you do
Never did I put my gun away while holding a guard at gunpoint, degenerate. You know, not acting like a moron, which seems to be a huge task for you.

>>721065325
Yeah, the kind of mission it is should determine how essential it is for you to not get seen.

Assassination missions? Whatever, just get the job done by any means necessary. Being stealthy here just makes it cleaner and easier, but isn’t required unless the target’s death HAS to go unnoticed or be deemed an accident.

Heists/thefts? It’s not ESSENTIAL that you remain unseen, but the risk of collateral damage isn’t ideal.

Spying or tailing someone? Getting detected in this context should be an instafail. The whole point is for no one to notice.

>>721065163
What's the matter spic, where's your smug animu reaction pics.
>spic
>blacklist apologist
You just can't make this shit up.

>>721065490
Nah
Both Gloomwood and Blood West are action-survival games with stealth elements.

>>721065632
That's fucking stupid tho.

Imagine being a foot soldier in Ukraine and you watch a Russian KA-52 land at your base, and the pilot jumps out to go rummaging around in your CO's office for sensitive intel. Everyone in the area is going to both chase him and make sure that the heli is locked down so that he can't just jump into it and take off again

>>721065642
Personally, I feel combat in stealth games should be possible, but hard.

So, you can play the game like an action game, but you die in one or two hits and are easily outnumbered, so it’s easier to just be stealthy than it is to do combat flawlessly.

>>721066031
>So, you can play the game like an action game, but you die in one or two hits and are easily outnumbered, so it’s easier to just be stealthy than it is to do combat flawlessly.
Intravenous does that to some degree

>>721065706
While technically stealth, this is a hide-and-seek simulator horror game

>>721066081
nu-Hitman does it too. And while, this isn’t strictly a stealth game, Ghost of Tsushima does it on its highest difficulty too.

I feel it’s the perfect middle ground. Combat and stealth are both viable, so you have options, but players who are just bad at the game are still punished.

>>721064972
>uav overhead
>shoot silenced missile at it
>2 minutes later it explodes and you can pass through undetected

>>721066031
Tactical shooters already kill you in one or two hits, and there's an overwhelming advantage in remaining hidden, that's why soldiers wear camoflage. Therefore Squad and Arma are stealth games.

>>721065642
>I want to be funneled into what the game designers wants because I am good little bootlicker
Sad.

>>721065657
>3 alarms and the mission is over
>mission over when you kill a civilian
>oh you killed that guy? You weren't supposed to kill that guy , mission is over
>you didn't go through this grate in your on-rails mission? mission over restart
This makes me sad. You're letting narrative dictate gameplay and how you should be allowed to play. This is the lead writer bending over the gameplay designer over the table and raping him.

>So what you want is simply an oper8r stealth shooter
I want a Ghost Recon Shitpoint that isn't retarded. Gimmie a big base with enemies inside with non shit AI. and give me enough space outside the base that I can use to choose whatever aproach strikes my fancy at that moment. Give me proper and complex stealth mechanics that I can use that the AI will adhere too and also give me proper gunplay that I can use IF I SO CHOOSE TO. I don't need scripted set pieces, I don't need an entire island(unless I'm actively being hunted every step of the way, that could be fun, but devs never go full autism with this). Do I want to snipe my target? Let me fucking do it, from an actual sniping distance. Do I want to sneak in without being noticed and kill my target then hide the body and fuck off without anyone seeing me? Give me that option. Do I want to pretend to be a local terrorist group, go in guns blazing and kill my target along with numerous other people to hide my tracks, then let me do it.

>>721065748
You're the one that made the bold claim that guards couldn't at all try to reach for their gun in a hold up. Now you look like an idiot for trying to school me about a game in which you didn't even know a basic thing about its mechanics. Just accept the humiliation of trying to act smart and then it blowing up in your face because you're stupid. You tried twice to paint me as not understanding the game.

>>721066204
>nu-Hitman does it too.
Isn't that rue for most hitman games? Except absolution (which is a somewhat fun but janky 7th gen tps) and c47.

>>721065814
They're right here.

>>721045984
For every person saying this, theres another saying theres no reason to have all these tools and weapons if lategame enemies kill you too fast and you need to stealth everything
so have you considered the possibility youre just not good at the stealth?

>>721066343
>This makes me sad. You're letting narrative dictate gameplay
No, you just made up some very retarded scenarios to get mad over.

>>721066410
I didn't make shit up, this is literally Splinter Cell before Chaos Theory.

>>721066343
>I want a
Operation Flashpoint
There you go, lil zoomie friend.

>>721066375
>You're the one that made the bold claim that guards couldn't at all try to reach for their gun in a hold up
Correct, retard. Don't put your gun away while holding a guard at gunpoint and he will never try to retaliate.
>you didn't even know a basic thing about its mechanics.
Retard, please.

>>721066508
Why keep responding when your replies went from: they can't do that. To: just don't put your gun away. ? do you ever accept just being wrong?

>>721066102
Horror games are the only true stealth games because you literally can't fight the enemies, hiding and running are your only options.

>>721066667
>Don't put your gun away while holding a guard at gunpoint and he will never try to retaliate.
>Why keep responding when your replies went from: they can't do that.
Correct, they can't. Your double digit iq really shines here, since you can't understand a simple thing.

>>721066830
>Horror games are the only true stealth games
Kys dumbass

We literally just got Intravenous 2 that mogs splinter cell in terms of
>light-and-dark that isnt braindead
>enemy AI that is actually smart, sticks together when threatened, notices things and detects enemy patrols
>actually good shooting mechanics, suppressed weapons are loud but can be used effectively with care
>more interesting loadouts/costumization and gadgets
>if you get caught then resuming stealth is easy, also gunfights arent shit and stealth/darkness/line of sight is still important as enemies never wallhack you after getting alerted
>levels that arent a linear setpiece
but 90% of these retards going "WHY ISNT THERE ANY MORE OF (OLD THING)??? WHY NEW GAMES BAD??" faggots literally refuse to play new games or get mad when they cant instantly get the hang of them

>>721066937
>detects enemy patrols
detects missing patrols*

>>721066937
>>enemy AI that is actually smart
>does not use grenades
>does not jump over fences/windows
Lol lmao even
shill your game elsewhere, roman

>>721066937
IV2 is genuinely an impressive game that needs more attention. It’s an objective upgrade from the first game in every way. My only real complaint is that the story and script are kind of mid, but that’s not a dealbreaker.

>>721066849
This is you just stretching because you didn't know they could actually do that. You quite literally said you never pulled your gun away on them>>721065748
>Never did I put my gun away while holding a guard at gunpoint
So you didn't know that they were capable of actually fainting compliance in a hold up and then going for their gun. It's a lot of mental gymnastics because on your part you could have clearly stated that they'll ONLY do that if you don't have your gun up. You didn't know they could do it at all.

>>721066937
Can I press against walls now or am I still a 3x3' box that gets stuck on every edge and corner?

>>721067040
funny enough, the dev posted a video showing they can do both of these in intravenous 3

>>721067116
>You didn't know they could do it at all.
Nice projection, subhuman
First it was that I did not play the game, then you are projecting I did not know about guard retaliation
>you could have clearly stated that they'll ONLY do that if you don't have your gun up.
You didn't mention it either, retard.

>>721067236
Kruto

>>721067040
Enemies in the intravenous games, with how theyre set up, actively trying to climb over shit would be such an insane nerf to them and just make the game more cheeseable
Theyre not an autist operator trained in random climbing and vaulting, theyre bodyguards

>>721066343
You're a retard. Go play COD or whatever.

>>721067330
Tbf, the game still has cheesable aspects regardless. You can camp rooms to take out a decent amount of enemies, and even though they’ll wise up eventually and stop rushing peaking out briefly to pop one of them or just apply pressure will force them to advance eventually.

>>721067459
i hope enemies having grenades fixes this

>>721067413
I understand now. Freedom really isn't for everybody. You just don't know what to do with it. You need to be told what to think and how to feel about it. You can't even comprehend what autonomy is, can you? Don't worry though, IGN will tell you exactly what to play and how to feel about it.

>>721067237
>You didn't mention it either, retard.
Didn't need to because it's clearly what I was referring to and the fact that you're going to these lengths to do spinwork on a pretty clearly defined feature is just a last minute attempt of you trying to salvage your backfired plan of looking like the MGS expert in this thread. I'm calling pointing out where the weapon is pointed as spin work in salvaging whatever non existent point you were trying to make for what it is. An enemy will try to turn the situation around without a gun constantly pointed at his face. Does that not sound like an enemy trying to turn the situation around? that's exactly what I described. I said that it was cool that an enemy will try to turn the situation around.

Intravenous already exists.
Besides most of you niggas seem to just want a "jacking off in a dark corner simulator" where you just watch guard repeat the same patrols over and over again until you move forward a bit and keep jacking off in another dark corner until you quickload the second someone catches a glimpse of your right toe
That just isn't fun.

>>721067769
>That just isn't fun.
Speak for yourself, faggot. And buy an ad.

>>721067668
You're a profound retard.
I didn't realize it at first just how deep your retardation goes.
You want every game to be the same slop because "muh options" even though there are options and alternatives that don't need to switch genres.
But what can a moronic zoomtard like you understand.

>>721067823
It's not. You are a boring faggot.
Stealth games are at their strongest when you can actually improvise and adapt to the situation. Your "hardcore" stealth is boring.

>>721067936
>Stealth games are at their strongest when you can actually improvise and adapt to the situation.
>why yes, I don't actually want a stealth game, but a game with stealth elements
Speak for yourself, faggot.

>>721065642
So stealth games never existed. Because they generally all include combat. Thief, splinter cell, deus ex, metal gear etc.

>>721067769
That's one pillar of stealth games.
But nah bruh, just throw a grenade instead.

>>721067918
I don't recall saying every game, I do however recall saying that options in stealth games are a good thing. But I understand that your slave mentality prevents you from thinking unless you are explicitly told by your master what to think. The only thing you understand about stealth is "Visibility meter" and nothing else. I bet you hate Clandestine too given it's lack of a visibility meter.

>>721067994
nah hes right
He wants to play a stealth game with interactive AI and ways to create your openings, and patience is still important. You want to play a braindead baby where you wait in a linear path for the blatant "HEY YOU CAN GO FORWARD NOW" window the devs inserted

>>721067994
It's funny how you think in real life stealth is only about jacking off in a dark corner and never includes takedowns or confrontation.
Again, stealth games are fun when they offer multiple solutions and room for adapting to the situation at hand. You're just an autist who wants them to be unfun quicksave simulators.

>>721068194
>how you think in real life
I never talked about or mentioned real life you projecting faggot. Again, speak for yourself you dumb fucking retard.

>>721068194
funny enough, trying to not get caught in a building youre not authorized in is literally just constantly moving and being quick. Otherwise people are literally just going to walk into you

>>721068061
>imagine recoiling at the notion that you can use a grenade
>imagine having an existential crisis about having the OPTION to use a grenade
>imagine having to struggle emotionally about YOUR OWN decision making in whether you use the grenade or not
>no you MUST not be allowed to have the grenade in the first place
>lest you be tempted to use it, and you will use it, given your obvious lack of impulse control
>no, you MUST be CONTROLLED
>every second, of every day
>for to give you freedom is to give you death
What a fag you are.

>>721068061
>start intravenous level
>hmm a large compound and a convenient building with one long entrance...
>*places proximity mines in building*
>*throws grenade somewhere else in the building*
>half the map rushes to check what the fuck is going on
>they explode in proximity mine 1/2 making them get distracted for even longer and draw in more people
>they explode in proximity mine 2/2
>>during this time i rushed to the other side of the map and could sneak all the way to the objective and valuables with almost zero enemies in my path
its kino


meanwhile you try doing this in the abortion that is basedcel
>place a proximity mine on the other side of the map
>enemy explodes
>now everyone wallhacks your exact position

>>721043031 (OP)
these games are like the marshmallow experiment extended to games. they're super rewarding when you win but there isn't enough reinforcement moment to moment for zoomer brains, they lack the patience. it's weird because in this era of woke it makes sense to make a super stealth game with a female lead.

>>721068298
>Trainer pedo.
Keys.

>>721068508
>its super exciting when you win in splinter cell
every splinter cell game has like 2-3 levels with parts that are exciting to stealth through and 7-10 levels where youre going through a braindead hallway with a blatant "GO THROUGH THIS DARK PATH OR TAKE OUT THIS LIGHT WHEN ENEMY TURNS AROUND"

>>721043031 (OP)
why even bother when mgsv and dishonored 2 perfected the genre?
alternatively mgs3 and chaos theory. funny you can play those two on a 3ds

>>721068468
>placing proximity mines in SC
I can't even remember proximity mines.
In any case, you're doing it wrong if you use explosives in SC where not explicitly instructed to demolish stuff.

>>721068468
This, also I love how Intravenous actually made detection work in a realistic manner and mogged AAA studios hard in the process
If a thug gets suspicious but hasn't actually seen you (or loses track of where you are) he will start going around the map and warning his comrades when he encounters them, with the knowledge of a intruder spreading naturally around the map & you can stop it by killing those who know something is up before they make more noise
It's way more inteligent than AAA devs just making everyone in the area instantly become aware of your presence or having NPC's instantly forget everything the second you're out of view

>>721068574
Can't argue, can you? Like a horse with blinders on, you can only go in one direction. Thinking is beyond your capabilities. I pity you, Anon, for you are a sad little man who can't resist not using the grenade simply because it's there.

>all those IV shills
Did some youtube faggot make a video about it or what is going on?
1 is a respectable debut, but it's not a good stealth game, at all, and it's way more fun playing it as a very slow Hotline Miami (which it totally didn't steal from ))))))))

>>721068792
>In any case, you're doing it wrong if you use explosives in SC where not explicitly instructed to demolish stuff.

>>721068948
>1 is a respectable debut, but it's not a good stealth game
It's a very good stealth game, if you choose to play it as such.

>>721060426
I never felt like replying to that post when you claimed earlier that running around like a buffoon in Blacklist opposed to the older movement system felt better. I don't think you're a real Splinter Cell fan, it's just well poisoning. It's one thing to think the older system can be approved, I'd have actually taken you seriously then. You are a saboteur to have suggested that the slower movement should be gutted though.

>>721069052
>It's a very good stealth game, if you choose to play it as such.
No, it isn't, at all, and that is the problem. That mission where you have to kill the entire compound or what it was was incredibly frustrating, and stealthing doesn't even provide any advantages like shortcuts or getting some good stuff you wouldn't get otherwise. It's just in every way an inferior and less fun way than to just go John Wick.

>>721060836
>shitty ai
>no ironside
sucks, but i also had a lot of fun with it so fuck everyone else

>>721069102
I don't recall saying it should be gutted. I said I didn't like being funneled into moving between shadows by having clunky movement purpose made to funnel me into stealth.

>>721069215
Yes, it is. You just can't handle being responsible for your actions.

>>721066409
I'm good at shooting people and that's quicker and easier

>>721069321
>You just can't handle being responsible for your actions.
But I take full responsibility for killing them all.
Since I didn't develop the game, I can't take responsibility for making stealth unfun.

>>721069271
I don't know how you expect that to play in regards to how good slower movement can be achieved without crippling it at the very same time. The way Splinter Cell's animations work is simply to reduce noise by granularity of button presses, or the mouse wheel rather if you're on PC. By having a much finer control over every aspect of the animation frame. How would you improve that? it's functionality is essential to the mechanics. By just automating everything? Blacklist is shit simply because it automated everything. That's a process familiar in the animation department at Ubisoft. See Assassin's Creed in its earliest iterations having a greater degree of freedom of control in animations in parkouring, then later iterations it all just gets automated. Everyone fucking lost their minds over AC Unity even though it was inferior to control compared to the first game. It just had better animations.

>>721068836
I haven't played the game but it doesn't have radios? Simulating an internal radio system with a set of warning messages was something MG2 was doing on 16 bits. I don't think resorting to actual violence without culminating in massive against-the-odds extermination is all that realistic, not only is extraction impossible when you're surrounded by miles of enemy territory and you just killed most of the breadwinners but shit like blocking obvious escape routes and overwhelmingly circling in on last known positions while clearing rooms is stuff even the brownest of thugs do on a daily basis, unconsciously.

>>721068948
>i cant believe people are talking about the most popular new stealth IP of the last 10 years in a stealth games thread
It sold like 150k copies supposedly. obviously people know what it is

>>721068948
>intravenous
>hm comparison
Profound mental retardation

>>721069971
the game does have radios, later on enemies can alert the rest of the map with radios but it also depends
not everything makes the enemies instantly radio

>>721069102
This is stealth according to the pedo above.

>>721069215
Literally everyone liked the final mission
Stealthing lets you get past the entire level without confrontation in 90% of the game's levels and has tons of fun ways to interact with the mechanics

implying stealth has to mean first person or single character only

>>721070189
Motn is a phenomenal stealth game. Extremely well done.

>>721070071
its stealth hotline miami and thats a good thing

>>721070071
IV is literally HM with a few tacked-on "stealth" mechanics. In fact, if there ever were a HM3 it would probably play similar to IV with how slow everything became.
If you deny that you're either the dev))))))))) or an utter fucking retard.

>>721070330
>))))
Gospodi, da zavali ti ebalo svoe degenerat ebuchii

>>721069915
>I don't know how you expect that to play in regards to how good slower movement can be achieved without crippling it at the very same time
Simple. Make it slow and methodical, for example if the sound of your buttcheeks clapping with each step makes noise that alerts the enemy based on the speed you are moving, then moving slow is favorable to stealth. However if the stealth fails you can start moving quickly and respond to enemies with aggression(shooting, takedowns). In Splinter Cell pre-Blacklist, this was next to impossible because aiming and shooting were deliberately gimped to force you stay in stealth at all costs. I can simplify this even further: Systems, mechanics and design favoring stealth, should be favorable to stealth and not have a negative impact on the alternative.
Meaning I should be able to move fast if I want to, even if it breaks the stealth, I should not have the fast movement be punished by the speed that was intended for the stealth.

>>721070264
>its stealth hotline miami and thats a good thing
See >>721070071

>>721066398
There's only about 3 missions in C47 which force you to go loud, which is only only one more than BM

>>721070606
>nooo stop saying that it makes me mad for some reason :(

>>721043031 (OP)
Never because stealth games didnt evolve the same way as shooters

Fine I'll make a stealth game. But you all better buy and play it.

>>721071510
How versatile will the stealth be?

>>721071232
>says retarded shit
>point it out
>hurr durr ur mad
See >>721070071

>>721071763
You won't have the option to fight, but if you do get caught you will enter a dialogue minigame where you have to explain to the guard why you're there and ask to see his manager because security is terrible around here

>>721065960
Why would your automatic assumption be that this would be the exact premise and setup of splinter cell but with a giant robot

>>721072123
And if you fail?

>>721072123
a Karen stealth simulator?
Is the Karen hot?

>>721072223
>get shot on the spot and its game overdev, all progress deleted.
>run away and leave the mission area, you can try that mission again but it'll be harder next time because they're on watch
>get taken prisoner and you have to do the interrogation and torture minigames, if you die in captivity its game over

we had this last year and thats all i know about recent stealth games

>>721058371
New James Bond game is basically Hitman WoA Part 4 with a James Bond skin starring Tom Holland.

going in naked with On Site Procurement. Love that in stealth games.

I want to make a stealth game but my scope keeps fluctuating between having it more action oriented or pure stealth which is very difficult to settle on.
Also stuck between making it espionage and sneaky-focused, or Hitman-like focused on assassinations and like mentioned in the thread "social stealth".

Honestly I might just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. It's primarily mission driven like the GTA games, and the completion method is mostly open-ended.

Friendly reminder to consider playing this 2005 slavjank. I mean what else are you going to play? nothing even releases anymore. Or probably you could just play Hitman and have a better time. All depends your tolerances I guess.

>>721051010
>have all this powerful hardware and processing power and software and AI bullshit
>use it to make pretty reflections and lighting instead of making interesting and challenging, deep and varied AI
worst timeline ever

>>721065632
I swear this was already a game. It was Japanese, it was part of a larger franchise, and it flopped

>>721059881
anime is trash and so is proc gen slop
go away

>>721073750
Follow your heart anon.

>>721043031 (OP)
>MGS but its really anime this time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZFxe61P7pc

>Ask for new stealth games like SC
>People start throwing Immersive Sims, Hide-and-Seek Amnesia or Outlast clones, and walking some at you

>>721074507
OP is not going to get a Splinter Cell. It's pointless asking for one. That being said I made some contributions regarding upcoming games, as did another anon posting in the thread. If you scour it you'll see some SC clones. Some released, some unreleased. Most of the existing ones aren't great aside from intravenous being better received. But there's potential for some future ones to be good. More notably one coming out of Korea.

>>721065427
Great rec! A friend and I just picked this up on the Steam sale. Honestly lots of mechanics in this remind me of Chaos Theory co-op. Really cool in-game microphone stuff too.

>>721043031 (OP)
Bigger project for a smaller audience.

>>721043567
low iq brownoid monkey

>>721074139
Left Alive?
yeah it's pretty bad

>>721043031 (OP)
Making a really good stealth game like chaos theory is hard and needs a large budget.

>>721074446
This game got maligned because of genAI voice acting, while other comments reported on it's general jankiness. At least the devs resolved to remove the genAI voices.

>>721077407
or an autist who likes stealth.

>>721077963
He said large budget for a reason. You're not going to find an indie team that will be able to attempt this kind of scope of game for a good long while. The progress of making these games is still incredibly slow and generally turns out primitive and inferior to the originals. Often tenfold. If you haven't noticed this just about every single indie dev always chooses some cop out lazy genre. The most common is usually 2D pixel art side scrollers, boomer shooters and horror games. All of which are not incredibly complex to make and require minimal talent in general.

>>721043031 (OP)
Korean heard your cry and copied Splintercell Blacklist for you
https://youtu.be/WXBAkLBEauI?si=-OC-kDFOoN8foVfW
enjoy your easily digestible blandness

>>721078447
>If you haven't noticed this just about every single indie dev always chooses some cop out lazy genre
Yes, devs who want a quick cashout will reach for the lowest hanging fruit. Which is why I said, "autist".

So what was the explanation for suddenly making Sam like 20 years younger? And how did they get from the gameplay of Chaos Theory to Conviction in like five years?

>>721065490
to me this is the true reason stealth absolutely died.
It got massively introduced in other genres and slowly diluted those mechanics while still keeping the idea of stealth, so now you only get:
>a very basic line of sight
>no footsteps
>no light and darkness
>only shots produce noise and even then at very limited ranges with long reaction times.
>no dead body identification or search

When stealth started being introduced in non stealth games it was barebones because it was new, and over time they would add on top to try to make that playstyle more fullfilling, but there was a quick turning point to simplify instead.

So now you end up with barely any stealth focused games and outside of a few outliers they use that kind of simple stealth as the template and objective instead of looking at Thief, Splinter Cell CT or Hitman as a starting point.

>>721057062
I wanna do that too but I think it's gonna be way harder to make something decent that one could think at first

>>721080121
Conviction specifically arose as a reaction to the slow death of the genre, a way to try and spice it up for the lowest common denominator shooter fan who wasn't gonna buy it anyway
They didn't learn their lesson until after blacklist

>>721057780
i agree with the fact that you should be able to fight your way out of a situation but combat should be made to be hard and require skill
blacklist while being aight had a combat that was kinda clunky too, mark & execute is stylish for sure but it's absolutely unskilled and nukes the stealth and combat

>>721081429
I feel like the average discourse and posts like this are made by people who literally didnt play the games and just parrot shit they heard from the internet

>muhh mark and execute :(((
Are you insane? The highest difficulty with the deadly enemies, what you claim you want, mind you, literally removes that mechanic. LITERALLY JUST DONT DO IT
There are NINE BILLION issues with blacklist to bitch about and instead you fags will whine about absolute NON ISSUES because you dont actually know anything about the game

I’m genuinely thinking of saving up enough money to recruit a team of devs to help me make my own 3D stealth game at this point. Even though I can’t code, I can do things like level design and mechanical design, so I’m genuinely waiting until I have enough money to recruit a team to help.

Is that actually a good idea or a pipe dream?

>>721061152
this is pure autism, who cares about this incoherence? shit probably would take months worth of programming for people to not even be aware about how they've been spotted

>>721082348
its perfectly fine but youre thinking of it wrong, its a based goal to strive for but saying this while having zero concept of making games and how much they cost is fucked up
heres what you do if you wanna make vidya

>optional: take one week to learn the very basics of programming
>install unity or something. doesnt really matter which engine. Can go much more basic specially if you dont really wanna code
>make literally anything. some random shapes moving, some one-level platformer where you jump and accelerate, the kind of thing you can finish from a week to a month
>scale up these meme projects as you wish
>now you have the slightest notion of making games
<at this point you surpassed 99.9% of people that want to make games>
>in this process you probably learned how extremely expensive and painstaking it is to make an elaborate 3d stealth game, and how "some money to hire people for a 3d game" means paying a pretty high salary to several people for at LEAST three years, most likely more
at this point you will probably settle for a first commercial project that is less expensive to develop than whatever dream idea you initially had, but you will be prepared. so in case you actually knew what would be a fun great game that sells all along then youre probably gonna make it

>>721082871
I’m not completely inexperienced admittedly, since I have screwed around with things like Scratch and RPGMaker in the past. When I say I can’t code, I mean I can edit code, but have no idea how to write it from scratch.


I have a good idea how hard it is and I know that it’d be easier to make simpler games, but the truth is that I just want to make stealth games. The reason I’ve abandoned games I’ve made before is because they were games in genres I’m not that invested in.

>>721082730
Why does everyone treat stealth AI like it's this complex thing that needs billions of dollars in budgets and thousands of devs to make?
It's very simple. The more complex the AI is the more resources it will draw, and less resources will be available for the system to use for graphics other systems that run the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t3PbGRazKg&list=PLNwKK6OwH7eW1n49TW6-FmiZhqRn97cRy

>>721065096
>zooms zooms don't have the patience to play stealth games
it's true that games like dark souls/elden ring are hated by zoomies, they're absolutely not playing it en masse dying a bajillion times to bosses!!!

>>721084005
>Why does everyone treat stealth AI like it's this complex thing
Because it is? having some form of dynamic AI that actually matters requires a sizeable budget. If this weren't the case then you'd be able to point to lots of games on UE5 that have pretty advanced mechanics implemented into their games, none of them do.

Making stealth games is a complicated process and that's why there aren't any on the market. It really does filter indie developers.

>>721084005
making highly elaborate great AI takes a metric fuckton of effort. just basic ai is not going to sell your game
your video is a nice tutorial for getting started, but ultimately its stuff in a total vacuum by someone who has zero noteworthy games they have ever released. it doesnt compare to actually having ai worthy of a big commercial game project

take an actually elaborate, responsive and dynamic AI (ie: intravenous) and its hundreds of functions interacting with eachother worth of af autism over the course of years of one guy autistically playing his own game

>>721084980
>it doesnt compare to actually having ai worthy of a big commercial game project
Name one game that has complex AI. I'll wait.

>>721084980
>take an actually elaborate, responsive and dynamic AI (ie: intravenous) and its hundreds of functions interacting with eachother worth of af autism over the course of years of one guy autistically playing his own game
You just told me it needs a huge giga budget the size of a small nation's gdp.

>>721067040
climbing fences/windows is a valid complaint but why would hobos/cops/drug dealers would throw frag grenades at your face? even if it was shown it would be a thing for the next game i don't think it's gonna be fun, especially if their animations are quick

>>721086893
I think it’s be fine if the lower tier enemies don’t have grenades, but elite guards do. Gives the game more enemy variety too.

>>721084893
If stealth AI is so complicated, why do most games have some kind of stealth mechanic? They have enemies that can detect you, investigate disturbances, and go into caution and alert phases, which is the skeleton of any acceptable stealth system.

It’s probably only things like MGS2’s enemy room clearing formations that require a ridiculous amount of effort.

>>721085289
literally the post youre replying to has an example of ai that is far more "typical commercail project" but outright one of the main selling points of the game
>>721085381
im not the same anon, but if you think this its not a tremendous effort then you have no notion of actually making vidya ai at all, in fact you probably havent even made anything for vidya whatsoever
>but its just one guyse?? why not just hire big team with big money???
this is the kind of thing where just throwing more money at the problem wont solve it. else aaa games wouldnt have enemy ai consistently mogged by random above average indieshit

>>721088784
literally the post youre replying to has an example of ai that is far more elaborate than "typical commercial project enemy ai" but outright one of the main selling points of the game
>>721085381
im not the same anon that started it, but if you think this its not a tremendous effort then you have no notion of actually making vidya ai at all, in fact you probably havent even made anything for vidya whatsoever
>but its just one guyse?? why not just hire big team with big money???
this is the kind of thing where just throwing more money at the problem wont solve it. else aaa games wouldnt have enemy ai consistently mogged by random above average indieshit

>>721088896
Isn’t the reason a lot of AAA games have bad AI because they don’t spend enough money on those aspects though? Most AAA dump the bulk of their budget into visuals and marketing.

>>721088681
MGS alert levels were rather primitive compared to what Splinter Cell did. I'm guessing I'm talking to a Kojima fanboy that doesn't know that his favourite hack director released pure shit, and you just played his inferior games for the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6J3KxB8jSU

>>721089157
they spend way more money than smaller developers do and it still sucks
you cant just throw money at the problem. you need cool people making an interesting game they actually care about, not dozens and dozens and dozens of random code monkeys that give zero shits and just want a paycheck, following orders from a boss that literally does not play games and just specializes in dumb agilefaggotry
>but they dump 90% of their money into marketing and visuals and money laundering!
10% of 250 million is still 25 million retard

>>721089401
Both the MGS games and the SC trilogy had impressive tech, which is why they were both big budget games of the time.

The point is that their stealth mechanics and stealth AI wasn’t what made them expensive to make. It was the fact they hired professional voice actors and musicians, as well as the fact that they were graphically cutting edge for the time.

>>721079105
seeing the "devlogs" on their youtube the game seems to be halfway chaos theory and blacklist (sound/visibility meter and more stealth options overall)

>>721088896
>tremendous effort
It isn't. It's literally resource allocation. Not monetary resources, computational resources.

>>721089573
Indie games are made with passion 9 times out of 10.

It’s not impossible to make an indie stealth game. Otherwise, there’d be no indie stealth games at all. You have stealth games like The Slater, Gloomwood and Aragami 1 and 2 that were all 3D stealth games made on a low budget. The Slater was even made by one guy.

>>721089573
You really think make the AI go from point A to point B is a monumental task don't you?

>>721082335
>The highest difficulty with the deadly enemies, what you claim you want, mind you, literally removes that mechanic. LITERALLY JUST DONT DO IT
don't worry about that, i finished blacklist several times in perfectionist and i never used mark & execute
>There are NINE BILLION issues with blacklist to bitch about and instead you fags will whine about absolute NON ISSUES
you bitched about the issues already, now let me bitch about one issue in the game design that atleast can be countered easily

>>721084005
>Why does everyone treat stealth AI like it's this complex thing that needs billions of dollars in budgets and thousands of devs to make?
making a good, seemingly smart and fun AI in a stealth game requires tons of tuning, which means time to QA, it's probably doable but like you say the more complex the more resources so you have to tune that too.
i was talking about how making the player being seen by the AI in total darkness because there's light behind him is a total waste of time because only few autists will think "ohh wow this game is so well done!!" meanwhile everyone's gonna get frustrated because they can't understand where it's coming from since no game ever had this amount of autism put into the AI

>>721088681
because like the guy you're quoting said : making base surface stealth mecanics is fine to do but making them more advanced for a dedicated stealth game isn't an easy feat

>>721088681
>why do most games have some kind of stealth mechanic
Having the mechanic and then being good at its mechanics are two completely different subjects. Any retard can make the sightlines system and the noticing player bar. Just because it's there that doesn't mean that it was well designed. Kind of like Dishonoured I suppose, that's a good example of lazy design made for diaper shitting babies. That's how stealth was modernised and it's awful.

>>721076000
Enough with the self loathing Joao, even stinky monkeys in your favella would appreciate the resurgence of stealth games

>>721063985
Concessions accepted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-5vM_tSVw&t=70
well you have this, but its made by koreans so im not expecting much

>>721067237
Are you ReviewTechUSA?
LMAO kys fat fuck, do your kids a favor for once

>>721092080
https://www.youtube.com/@MUDANG-EVR/videos
seeing their videos on their channel, seems promising to say the least

>>721091896
Holy fucking SHIT that toenail!!!!

>>721046552
>>721046075
Thanks anons, posts like these make me come to /v/ still

One day we should start /v/ revival Thievery UT servers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4nvMHmOqyU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0_Jwng96Zo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q07AeKGfgr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7LtA-cUhPY

Yes? no? some footage that might give you an idea of what it plays like. Spies Vs. Mercs but in the Thief universe I suppose.

>>721091868
What is Dishonored missing that other stealth games have? The game has solid stealth mechanics aside from the lean being overpowered.