Thread 723846236

In recent years I've noticed a concerning downward trend of PvP games and game modes losing steam and an overall negative sentiment towards PvP in general across the internet. Sure you got a few popular free to play titles still going quite strong but new additions seem to be struggling to lift off the ground and any and all "PvPvE" game has an overwhelming majority of negative feedback demanding PvE only modes to be implemented or to straight up remove any and all PvP from the games. Most multiplayer game developers don't even bother to implement it these days in fear of backlash or just a general disinterest.
It seems that times are changing, players don't seem interested in competition the same way they were just a decade ago, am I stoned or do you think there is any truth to this? What do you think causes this phenomenon?

Ganker 4life
redcels lost 4ever

saving money and lack of need

>>723846236 (OP)
There is a mix of saturation (Call of Duty every year, Fifa, etc) and stagnation (too many hero shooters) and people will eventually want a different genre, but normies are extremely driven towards competition. Given that gaming is now extremely mainstream, competition will be the absolute most popular thing in gaming until the normies eventually move on to another form of media.

You can't forecast that well just from sudden negative feedback, shifts like this require so many people to agree for something to move, which generally happens slowly. You would need to see sharp declines in data on video game charts, Statista or the like to properly forecast a market trend like a majority swing from PvP to PvE single player gamer preferences.

>>723846236 (OP)
Why make new PvP games when people are still playing the old ones and won't try anything else? Also you're really encouraged to make a game with seasons, content updates, and cosmetics or people will get bored quickly. So it turns them away from even trying. You and I might be fine with a game that has a set amount of character and maps that gets updated once in a blue moon, but most people aren't. And that will kill their game. Games like Overwatch and MR live and died based on skin, character, and map output. Even Street Fighter/Tekken players can only go a month or two before they start getting fidgety for more.

>>723846236 (OP)

Trends in games. It'll come back now that battlefield has taken the gaming world by storm again. There was a period of action/fantasy RPGs, then racing games with the forza horizon 4 being the headliner for its time too

>>723846236 (OP)
look at the top steam games retarded freak

>>723846236 (OP)
>top 10 games 24 hour peak
>pvp
>pvp
>pvp
>pvp
>not pvp
>pvp
>pvp
>not pvp
>pvp
>pvp
i'm going have to go for a firm "no" there chief.

>is pvp dying?
>next soulslike fromsoftware game is literally focused on pvp
fucking retarded op

>>723846970
damn, look at duckov go

>>723846970
>shooter
>moba
>shooter
>shooter
>shooter
>shooter
>shooter
>...wallpapers
>whatever naraka is
>shooter
There doesn't seem to be many options unless you like shooters

>>723846236 (OP)
Yes, there are 2 reasons

1: not being allowed to be toxic. Competing with each other is about dominating your opponent. If you are not allowed to even sneeze without a chat ban, there is literally no point in playing these games. I remember installing league of legends again after a few years, just to see how it has developed. I got chat restricted for a week for saying that something is retarded, not even directed at anyone. I immediately uninstalled it and never looked back

2: Bots, augmentation and cheats. At some point people who play normally will have no chance, no matter how hard they try to improve. Once shit like neural chips in your brain become more mainstream, you either have one or you stop playing pvp games

there's so much division in the world already, so nobody wants to escape by playing games where you're pitted against other real people. its probably part of the reason friendslop is so popular right now

>>723846236 (OP)
well people are so weak that they think standing in the street while jews launder 250 million dollars back to themselves is a "protest" so no, I don't think pvp has much hope going forward

>>723847043
Do people seem hyped about it to you? I can barely find any positive sentiment towards it anywhere. That's my point, most people seem to hate the idea and are very vocal about it online.

>>723846236 (OP)
Well thats because Elden Ring killed everything that made PvP in souls fun.
Not even mentioning the balance, WHO THOUGHT ITS GOOD FUCKING IDEA to be only allowed to invade squads? And WHICH GENIOUS thought its such a 500 IQ idea to lock the number of player slots to FOUR so if you invade 3 people (which was most of the time) you will end up being alone because you technically cant get an ally invader unless you kill one of the 3 gankers?
Not to mention adding those dragon head spells that can just spam whole area which favours those groups of 3 even more.
All the fun goofing around in farron forest from DS3 and all the joyeous stuff in soulsgames before was completely destroyed with this utterly retarded change.
And ofc open world is so great for the invasion too... NOT

>>723848104
>abooblooo i can't kill duos
shitter cope

>>723846236 (OP)
PvP isn't fun when it has become to easy to access information that will inform you of the absolute best decisions at all times. Organic learning is dead with online games.

>>723848249
>Duos
I clearly wrote 1v3. And long term, it's not really fun. Its just running in circles until they run out of estus and/or fuck up. Its not impossible, its just not fun. A game should give you easy and hard games in equal fashion. You need also some opportunities to stomp a lonely loser instead of it being JUST the gank squads.

>>723848104
I totally agree with you but the fact remains that invaders are a minority within the game. Most players don't have the patience to gitting gud enough to beat up squads and rather play with host advantage or install the seamless mod and avoid the system all together. From what I've seen most players express that the novely has worn off. It isn't just Souls games but pretty much any game where PvP is secondary, like MMOs or extraction games. You don't see the same interest around PvP videos for example, something that used to be a really big deal within the communities. Remember Warcraft Movies? Invasion meme videos like giant dad or the tribe? The magic is gone man and it's really depressing.

>>723846236 (OP)
PvP is dying because no one wants to play against brown cheaters

>>723848734
That used to be a problem here on /v/ but then we had a fight club that ended that.

>>723847229
This
If I cannot swear then go fuck yourself piece of shit of censored trash game
Hope you die in hell

>PvP game comes out
>people enjoy it
>shitters leave while the skilled players stay playing their game
>new PvP game comes out
>shitters flock to this game
>the best of those shitters stick around and the bad players leave
>new PvP game comes out

>>723848734
Also this

>>723849240
Ah yes, the "neutron star" experience

>>723846236 (OP)
no but pvpers are more likely to play a variety of games nowadays instead of hyper fixate on 1 single game
So we won't see things like instant 24/7 arena queues on WoW anymore or 24/7 instant invasions on the latest soul slop

>>723849484
Neutron stars have insane gravity and typically spin really fucking fast, how does that apply to this?

>>723850583
>used to be bigger and heavy
>time passes
>stop being big but still really heavy

The mass represents the amount of skill the players have, the volume represents the size of the player base

>>723848734
>just booted up enlisted for the first time in a while
>spics chirping nonstop
>close game

>>723848734
I'm sure there are plenty of black, white and yellow cheaters out there to meet your needs.

>>723850967
How on Earth can the retarded playerbase be what puts you off Enlisted? They make the game tolerable because you can farm them in your bomber.

>>723846236 (OP)
PvP is just not a great experience for most, natural differences in IQ, reaction time and hours of practice meant that some people were just a lot better. Games were aimed at having fun in the moment to moment play even if you lose or came low on the scoreboard.

Games became too serious, things like CS moved games away from your arena UT/Quake games, too a more high stakes 1 hit kill headshots affair. Eventually we got a more rock paper scissors games like WoW trinity system or Team Fortress style classes where A beats B, and B beats C, but C beats A etc.

Then it became insufferable due to huge skill gaps and matchmaking came in to balance games which forced everyone into a 50:50 win/loss ratio like league or whatever, and eventually it just became about your turn to lose or win.

Esports and streaming were kind of the height of death, seeing streamers clean up half a lobby in BR games before winning made is more of a spectator sport, the same way few people play football, but loads of people watch it.

I'm 42 I used to play CS when it first released and Unreal Tournament before than and Quake before that. These days things are much different. Cheating is more rampant, too many children playing, monetization around skins and trash like that is just gross.

>>723852705
>50:50 win/loss ratio like league or whatever, and eventually it just became about your turn to lose or win.
gross misrepresentation of matchmaking algorithms that is still only repeated by people with a below average understanding of math, particularly statistics

>>723846236 (OP)
I gave up playing online multiplayer long ago. I only play Super Mario Maker 2 user levels. I wish more games simply did this. Let fans create for other fans to enjoy.

I don't like pvp in pve focused games

>>723846236 (OP)
Extraction and battle royale are all PVP. Most normies don't want PVP. Some normies do. Those normies play extraction and battle royales and CoD (TDM). Souls got too popular and so cowardly normies avoid the full game mechanics (PVP).

Souls PVP died when gankers got trolled by based blue friends. I still remember all the seethe from /v/

>>723855032
Oh hey look there's already one here
>>723848104
Ahahaha faggot.

>>723846236 (OP)
It feels like gaming is dying in general honestly. The only online games that seem to have any sustainable number of players are old games that came out eons ago. Every new game that comes out seems to fail, or is lauded as a success for performing at a level that would have been laughed at five years ago. Every vidya company seems to be in shambles with people leaving or getting fired left and right and all their projects in development hell.

I feel like all that's going to be left in a few more years is gacha slop.

PVP, meant for fun, was replaced by PVP for sweats, kids and adults with nothing else going on in their lives dumping hours of their lives into multiplayer. Even if the game is fun, merely hearing these nasally neckbeard retards is enough of a deterrent.

>>723855204
Gachas, shooters and FIFAslop already dominate the market, and they're not showing any signs that they're gonna stop expanding.

>>723846236 (OP)
PVP in games with visible skill gaps is dying. If all you have to do to get kills is point and click players subconsciously put less significance into getting killed by another player. The more apparent the skill gap the more seethe is generated. The more seethe generated the more likely that the defeated player is to equate someone beating them at a video game to rape.

dude theres no way you post dark souls pvp as your flagship example
like lets not even pretend bro, it has some of the most insane delayed visual/audio feedback that you have to intuit from hours of experience.
not only that but most evil red mans are schizophrenic NEET's who have the muscle memory for hardswapping into chainsaw glitch into the fuckpiss sword into the rapecock nigger ring drilled into their memory the moment you commit to anything besides walking backwards

like seriously you don't have to pretend you care about "le general sentiment of le pvp... i am le logic and stats man"
just be honest and say you're a babyback bitch who wants to cry about dark souls invasions fucking hell you're SUCH a faggot OP.

>>723846236 (OP)
PvP is ruined by hackers and tryhards. I'm one of those people that demands PvE in every game

>>723859260
I picked that image because it was saved on my desktop, I play lots of PvP games bro.

>>723860394
I don't care. You sound faggy

>>723860413
You sound like a sperg

>>723859260
>>723859928
The fun part is the jank though.

>>723860451
So?

>>723852858
The matchmake to basically keep your win loss about the same so that everyone is competing with people about their level by putting them against players of about your skill. This is with league is hell and climbing through ranks is hell, because on average every other game you're going to lose and there will be almost nothing you can do to carry it if another player is feeding too much or deliberately throwing.

The reason it's like that is because for every person that dominates and has fun on a winning streaking and kicking ass, is another group of people who are suffering because of it, and games want to maintain their playerbase, if they don't give people wins, then they leave, especially important in any F2P PvP.

The only time out of this norm is when algorithms are still under sampled at your performance and cant get a reliable average yet, usually when a game first launches or you just start.

>>723860843
So we should make out

>>723847043
>one game
WOAHHHH

>>723860915
>will be almost nothing you can do to carry it if another player is feeding too much or deliberately throwing
Cope to the highest degree.

>>723861098
NTA but what you greentexted is right, you can't fix that, however if you're actually good at the game those odd matches where you do get a feeder or a deliberate troll don't matter. I always saw the 50/50 thing as a cope because that makes no fucking sense when you take smurfing into account. People who can consistently get to the highest ranks every season and on new accounts over and over again 'cause they're actually good at the game lol.

I've never seen anyone who is good at a game say this, it's always people who get hard stuck in mid tier ranks that think they know a lot about the game they're playing because they've played it for a long time.

>>723861337
You say what I greentexted was right then the rest of your post is disagreeing with the greentext. Yes, if you are better than your rank you will have more than a 50% win rate until your rating settles to your true skill rating. From that point if you simply make an effort to learn more you will gain more skill and enjoy a higher winrate. No one who is high ranked complains about "muh 50/50"

>>723860413
>Spergs out in all lowercase typing
>Dude
>Bro
>Calls others fags
Kek

>>723861424
>You say what I greentexted was right then the rest of your post is disagreeing with the greentext.
No, I went on to explain that the odd match where someone does throw or feeds so hard that you can't carry doesn't matter to a good player since good players are capable of getting consistent win streaks while they're climbing.

>>723861783
Seems retarded to ignore the rest of the sentence from the post that was quoted then. Complete non-sequitur. Stop posting anytime.

>>723861337
The saying 50/50 win/loss is not to say people can't change rank, in fact it's the opposite, the ranks aren't based on how many games you win, it's based on who you won against and their rank. The point of the algorithms is to dial in your skill very quickly and pit you against silimar skill players. People can and do get better but that affects rank, it doesn't effect the wins/losses.

I never said people complain about it and I never complained about it, I'm saying that's just how it works in most competitive PvP because they grade on a curve and they do that specifically because they don't want some people lumped with a disproportional amount of losses.

I don't even play league, you don't need to to know how Elo scoring systems work in competitive games, they all do the same thing, it's a normal skill distribution and so you use parametric statistics to place everyone on a global scale.

You can say "hurr durr only the best players" until you're blue in the face, that's my point. The game devs who are smart keep the game fair for everyone, but that also means enforcing a kind of 1 win vs 1 loss average over time.

>>723860394
lel sure you fucking do
it's just a coincidence you picked a souls game as your OP image and it's just a coincidence you brought up "PvPvE" games specifically and it's just a coincidence you completely ignored fighting games (which have never had mainstream popularity) and multiplayer shooters, which is still one of the most mainstream popular genres in all of gaming

this is about you being upset that people have largely rejected souls pvp and the design of recent souls games have reflected that people don't like pvp
you know why they rejected it in souls games? because it fucking sucks. it's a jank laggy shitfest and no one wants some asshole to come into their pve game and fuck up their progress. it never feels good. it is fun for no one except the invader. nobody sees "dark spirit faggotfucker69 has invaded!" and responds 'oh BOY an invader! what an exciting moment of emergent gameplay! maybe i'll win and get some extra resources!'
no. it's "oh great just what I need, some asshole to come fuck up my efforts"

>>723862047
the grind is dead for most people. whatever rank they see immediately on their screen is what they perceive themselves to be and they don't like it.
looking at league people will make a new account, do the seed matches and if they're unhappy with the result they start again, when 10 games into an account you ccan easily sway the elo with good enough results.
then theres the thing with rank perception and how they scaled back diamond in later seasons to what platinum levels years before.
I miss stuff like trueskill

>>723861902
Damn you got really mad lmao

>>723846236 (OP)
Skimmed your post. Why is PvP dying? Lack of picrel, my guess. That's what I see being posted the most, from people who don't identify as a gamer.

Also it is not the zeitgeist at the moment for regular people. Regular people (like pablo.gonzalez.2007) make up a lot of players even though it's not immediately obvious. The vocal pro players and YouTubers drown them out, which are a minority.

No more couch multiplayer has likely had some impact. Right now playing multiplayer to most people means getting your ass kicked or being seen as a "pro gamer" with matching gamer chair, light up computer, and three monitors. It's serious business instead of fun, and it turns off women so people avoid it. I don't think calling people "sweats" was as big ten years ago as it is now.

The bottom line is no one in the past invited friends over to play magnums only on Hang Em High because there was a complicated matchmaking system or ELO to grind for. They did it because it was FUN. If it's not fun, why bother.

>>723862160
This is exactly the kind of negative sentiment I'm talking about, you can also find a lot of it when it comes to other PvPvE games like MMOs and extraction games. Take a look in the steam forums for the various new extraction games coming out for instance, they're littered with seething PvE players.
It seems like the sentiment is that if you don't like comp shooters or mobas then you can go fuck yourself.

I am >>723862689

>>723846970
>CS
Pro gamer game
>Dota
Nerd pro gamer game
>PUBG
Streamer game
>BF6
Actually good example, this one is popping off right now with most crowds
>Escape from Duckov
Normies have never heard of this
>Delta Force
F2P slop with terrible reviews
>Apex Legends
Old news, streamer game
>NAKARA: BLADEPOINT
Basement dweller game
>Rust
Actually not too bad, but still too invested for most people. Getting rusty fucking sucks. Smiling Friends had the right idea

>>723862689
I will just filter my lobbies by "employed" too, to get easier scrubs to farm, Mr. Wagie.

People don't seem to understand the concept that PvP interactions necessarily have a winner and a loser, and the second they lose to anyone they start seething about "sweats" and "tryhards". I don't know what the broader cultural change is that lead to this, but it's basically insurmountable and PvP games will only ever appeal to people who can understand and accept this concept.

>>723846236 (OP)
>play pve game
>get comfy experience if the game is good
>play pvp game
>if the game is good every brazilian 12 year old or twitch streaming sweat lord plays it and makes the game impossible to play unless you are autistically grinding up your skills
Gosh I wonder why PvP is dying.

>>723851325
I try not to take sides on topics like this but the plain facts are that when Europe/NA had its own bubble online, cheating was rare and you were ostracized if you got found out. A part of engaging with first-world politics is acknowledging the flaws and behaviour of your society so you can move past them. For some reason it's impossible for Asian countries to go "Yeah we need to properly reward sportsmanship".

>>723846236 (OP)
More thirdworlders getting online.
Too many cheaters now.

It's still fun and played enough so you don't have to wait

>>723846236 (OP)
>be me playing ds3 yesterday
>get invaded in the cathedral of the deep
>fuckyeah.jpg
>look for teh invader so i can fight him
>he doesn't even try to find me and leaves
later i got invaded in Irythill and we had a nice duel but what's with picky invaders?

>>723867614
There were plenty of cheaters back in the day, I lived through it.

>>723868043
Still wasn't as bad, and private servers helped. It's just plain privilege and ignorance to believe handing internet over to countries still fighting over basic resources have the peace of mind to play games in good faith.

>games designed with pvp in mind suck
>cheaters
No need to complicate things.

>>723868195
>fag in imperial core moralizes to the countries they exploit abouit their moral high ground and good faith
lmao

In any case, it was just as bad, you're just delusional. Even back in the MUD days there were whole organizations dedicated to hacking/exploiting games, through the Unreal/Quake era, etc. It never stopped and its always been terrible, you were just too stupid or too oblivious to notice it (if you were even alive then, which I doubt).

>>723865031
Emphasis on rank growth and matchmaking replacing dedicated servers (join-play-leave).

>>723867854
He was probably disguised as a crate somewhere and just gave up when you didnt run by

>>723868369
>imperial core
Sounds fucking awesome. You can only dream, shitskin.

>>723846236 (OP)
At some point the
>gidgud casul filtered follow le meta
cancer just got boring

>>723846236 (OP)
>What do you think causes this phenomenon?
Minmax culture ruined pvp.

>>723852858
>t. didn't read the activision patent

>>723868470
I'm white and I live in the US, good try though simping faggot

>>723862047
What kind of retard plays a team game with randoms and actually expects to win noticeably more than every other game

>>723868369
All you've done is just qualify the fact that this problem existed and has exacerbated. Save for the adhominem and assumption about who I am, you haven't really proven anything except the petty envy the western world has to suffer from.

>>723846236 (OP)
>play chivalry
>have the time of my life
>so much fucking fun
>start fighting against the ballerinas
>instantly lose all interest on the game
sweatlords ruin everything

>>723847569
Most people can’t be hyped because From’s releasing its first pvp focused souls game on a fucking bing machine, a platform with a fanbase that generally has zero interest in souls games. People aren’t lambasting the game, they’re lambasting the smooth brained decision to have it coming in through Nintendo of all things rather than pc or sony.

i hate playing against other people because instead of having fun they want to exploit bugs, grief, or just straight up cheat for completely hollow victories

>>723868369
>it was just as bad
NTA but you're retarded. The existence of cheaters in the past doesnt negate that there statistically more players who cheat now than there were back then.
Drooling fucking ape

>>723867767
this isn't pvp enjoyment this is just sadism

How do I make the least aggressive build for invading in Elden Ring? I'm talking Mimic's Veil, Mohg Rune etc, explosive physick, but nothing outright tryhard

>>723869331
>and has exacerbated
Can you not read? I said its always been like this, not that it has gotten worse.

>you haven't really proven anything except the petty envy the western world has to suffer from
You're the one who brought up the global south, poor long suffering first worlder, don't blame me that we've destabilized and destroyed half the Earth when I remind you that first world moral high ground is delusional hypocrisy of the highest order

>>723869658
Where are those statistics? Don't act like you've been reading up on studies buddy. There are MORE cheaters, but thats because there are MORE players, its not magically become worse (in fact I'd say its become alot less bad because developers tend to be better with security whereas back in the day it was the wild west, so there is a higher bar to be a pest with cheats)

The only successful PvP these days are large budget FOMO shit, and if people are already invested in one game they’re unlikely to jump ship to another unless it’s really good. Seems like it’s very risky for companies to make PvP games. Look at how many hero shooters flopped over the years. It’s weird though because no one seems to be making good single player experiences either. It’s all just open world slop and walking sims.

>>723870104
>goalpost moving
>white guilt
Uh-oh, someone's chastity cage is buckling

normalfags are increasingly more obsessed with competitive multiplayer, I don't know what you're talking about. maybe only games you don't play.

PVP is dying because of the huge amount of streamers and tranny neets playing 24/7. Some game feel like a full time job and if you don't have the time to invest in, you will constantly get rekt by some streamer whose job is playing that game.

>>723846236 (OP)
MMOs neglect PvP, all attempts at open PvP games failed, only Dota/LoL and shooters are still going strong, albeit with very toxic mechanics that do not foster healthy competitive environments. Millenials are getting old and the younger generations consolidate in Fortnite and Roblox for their competitive needs.

>>723846236 (OP)
the bigger ones are doing all their effort most pvpnigger are hooked in their codshit and barely change other pvp game unless it shits so hard, i dont bother pvp when they re doing kernel shit like latest battlefield 6 and all have cancerous launchers that looks same

>>723869707
thats griefing

it takes 3 seconds to realize that fighting someone withing an unbalanced game is complete waste of time

>>723847193
Well that's how it is, faggot. You like shooters if you are a high testosterone, competitive male. If you don't you may as well just start transitioning already.

>>723869519
its simple uncle nintendart its paying the project for miyazaki that got an itch with tarkov shit

>>723846236 (OP)
>any and all "PvPvE" game has an overwhelming majority of negative feedback demanding PvE only modes to be implemented or to straight up remove any and all PvP from the games.
>overwhelming majority
It always just a couple of whiny shitters who the devs don't listen to

>>723869029
gamble addicts that are mostly pvpniggers

I almost popped an aneurysm from playing For Honor so yeah no more pvp games for me. I simply get too angry at videogames.

>>723848613
Everyone is too good at games now+games are often pretty simple for the sake of mass market appeal so the games get solved really fast. And as far as PvEvP games like OP talks about it’s REALLY frustrating when you have a build you like thematically but it simply isn’t viable for PvP so you just have to run away all the time or change builds

>>723846723
>until the normies eventually move on to another form of media
ha ha ha ha ha

>>723846236 (OP)
I think esport culture and streamers/content creators solving metas and creating millions of npc clones who follow guides has made pvp a lot less fun.