Thread 725245305

Serious question. Why is C not used to make games anymore? Was 3D simply too much for C?

>>725245305 (OP)
Language is irrelevant now that compilers are as good as they are. It's basically personal preference at this point.

what does the C stand for

>>725245305 (OP)
Reinventing the wheel is a waste of time.

>>725245305 (OP)
Because that low level of control isn't needed anymore for most projects, and because of ready made engines like Unity and Unreal, and because C has fewer programmers willing to work at gamer rates.

C is absolutely still used, but only by people close to the hardware and doing engine shit.

>>725245424
Cwark, it's a tiny particle

>>725245305 (OP)
>Was 3D simply too much for C?
Wtf does this even mean? C has less runtime overhead than any other popular programming language. Anyways, the reason C isnt used is because games naturally lend themselves to object oriented design, so developers usually prefer C++

It is if you use SDL or are an absolute madlad and can do all that shit without it. I've considered using it to avoid the Unityjews. I prefer C++ though.

>>725245424
programing languages are named in terms of readability for the computer. Higher letters mean higher level code
>A: Assemble
>B: BASIC
>C: C++, C#
etc.
we are know at the Python and Swift level

>>725245305 (OP)
Because video game programming easily maps onto object oriented programming. So instead of using C, you would use C with objects, or C++ as it's also known.

>>725246101
BASIC is not a lower level language than C lol

Arguable B could be lower level than C in some ways but not really. B is the precusor to C

>>725245305 (OP)
real answer: midwits people are scared of the command line for some fucking reason

depends on the framework
like if you just want to build a simple server
python with flask you can write in 10 lines
c# webapi need multiple files to set it up

>>725246101
you accidentally wrote basic instead of brainfuck

>>725245305 (OP)
Writing things in C properly takes too much effort.

>>725246786
and writing things improperly in other languages is just so much easier

>>725246623
Not a programming language. It's jobless puzzlecuck retardation.

>>725246981
>Not a programming language
proof?

>>725245410
>>725245560
>>725245873
>>725246495
Just say you're a god damned motherfucking retard.

>>725246961
writing things improperly in other languages doesn't fail as catastrophically

>>725245305 (OP)
Because C is literally just C++ except you have to do everything manually

>>725247113
i'd rather my program sometimes explode when it is wrong than to silently continue on in an error state unknown to the user

Our God, Linus Torvalds, hates C++. Anyone here talking about C++ in a positive light deserves nothing else but eternal hellfire.

>>725247062
I am, because my main programming languages are 6502 assembly and C#.

>>725246101
basic is vibecoding wannabe

>>725245424
Cfiltered

>>725247369
oh yeah? the following is a 65816 routine that i wrote ages ago. even though it's not 6502, you should be able to figure out what this does... can you?

PHP
REP #$30 // 16-bit mode
LDA #$0000
-:
LDX $00
BEQ return
LSR $00
BCC +
CLC
ADC $02
+:
ASL $02
BRA -
return:
STA $04
PLP
RTL

>>725245305 (OP)
Application (including vidya) development is fundamentally compromise of 3 requirements:
>how complex it can be
>how long it takes to make
>how efficiently it runs
That is, assuming moderately competent dev team, bunch of 3rd world shitters will often make things that fail all three criteria.

C is good language for highly optimized things that run efficiently, at the cost of taking longer to make. While vidya development generally cares about making things quickly with less focus on efficient performance, so C is not prefered.

>>725245424
Cnigger

>>725245560
>and because of ready made engines like Unity and Unreal
only good for dogshit slop and quirky indie shit pretending its not slop. these are massive engines, and every gamedev knows life is a strugglee of fighting the grain.
yeah good luck fighting the grain of the 5,000,000 loc codebase that is unreal you fucking moron.

is coding still going to make me 100k/year or should i just quit the college meme and go learn HVAC

>>725248601
How far into the college are you?

>>725248601
hvac right now

>>725248601
the trades are as much of a meme as stem is
israel wins either way baby

>>725245305 (OP)
the real answer is that most schools teach object oriented primarily which is more palatable to the average CS student, and the industry moved to C++ because it has better OO features, so most programmers don't even know (or care) how to write proper C.
C takes longer to write than C++ mostly due to creation/destruction semantics.

>>725248601
If you can make an SLM by yourself right now (at this exact moment with no further research), you can still get a job. If not, you missed the bubble and your CS degree won't get you a job for another 15 years.

>>725245305 (OP)
Imagine if instead C++ had been first, then someone pitches C which is like C++ but with
>no operator overloading so math is a pain
>no constructors for structs so matrices are a pain
>a less convenient and more restricted standard library
>no templates
some people also like smart pointers and exceptions
I also like namespaces

>>725248601
honestly if I was in college right now I would be trying my hardest to get one of those deals where the military pays for your education and then gives you a desk job when you finish

>>725248862
man, every single CS student goes through the "OOP is the BEST and ONLY way to program" phase when first introduced to it
not everyone gets over that part of their life

>>725248872
Don't be so pessimistic, just look into quantum and be ahead of the curve when it starts trending.

>>725249332
I'll have to admit, declarative programming filters me hard.

>>725245305 (OP)
C++ is l i t e r a l l y C with some added features.
You look at C++ and it has this amazingstatic feature called STL. It's just objectively good. Actually, it's just weird that C needs you to re-invent data structures but let's not judge. The Chud programmer will cry. They don't have it. Meanwhile, C++ will let you program exactly like in C but with STL added and you lose nothing. You don't even need to use OO if you don't like it.
C(huds) only keep losing.

>>725248925
operator overloading is cancer
you can go the RAII route and write constructors if you want
systems programming interfaces are entirely in C, so you can do anything. things like Boost are cancer
templates are an astonishingly complex and horrible type of cancer
exceptions make goto statements blush
namespaces mean names have to get mangled somewhere

man, fuck C++. C is almost perfect.

>>725249491
you sound like a java man

>>725249659
I never mentioned or defended boost
>names have to get mangled
Why is that a problem? It's a logical solution to the problem

>>725245305 (OP)
What the fuck? a void returning an int?

C can be very cool.

>>725245305 (OP)
this is the thread to ask: how do I learn programming? or better, how do I effectively study it? see my problem is that I'll study hard for a while, maybe a few weeks, maybe even a few months, but then drop it for a long time, and then pick it back up again. only, it constitutes even more lost time because then I feel it necessary to start from scratch and go through the basics over and over again, so I get caught in this loop of never progressing. so I guess I'm asking you for general advice on how to better study a programming language besides
>git gud
>stop being retarded
etc.

>>725250217
Make a project just use a framework since its easier

>>725250162
don't know what you're talking about, but that
> </stdio.h>
is a mystery. inclusion is not an html tag

>>725250217
take an actual post-secondary course if you can't self-direct your own learning

>>725250314
>use a framework
so rather than studying a language and solving a problem with it, you suggest to pile on a tremendous amount of needless complexity

>>725250217
The first thing you need to do is decide why you want to learn programming; what you want to actually do with it. Then you pick a language that will let you do that thing and work though exercises and short programs. Once you get a general feel of how shit works you start making basic projects and from there you can branch out to working on whatever it is you wanted in the first place.

>>725250162
anon read it again

printHelloWorld() doesn't return anything

>>725250217
it's really easy anon
you choose a problem that interests you and you solve it with the language du jour

also, for C, you can read the standard text written by the creators of the language
https://seriouscomputerist.atariverse.com/media/pdf/book/C%20Programming%20Language%20-%202nd%20Edition%20(OCR).pdf

these old unix books are amazingly readable and interesting. they also aren't 800 pages long.

>>725249993
I've done all sorts, from Qbasic through TurboPascal, C, Java, Python and so on.
But I'm most definitely not a Godel man.

>>725250217
Maybe have a goal other than learning the language just for the sake of learning the language? Make app or a game or something.

>>725250516
you can also read modern c https://gustedt.gitlabpages.inria.fr/modern-c/ and be aware of many of the pitfalls that lie ahead of you

>>725245305 (OP)
>Was 3D simply too much for C?
>all the graphics APIs are made in C to this day
/v/ in charge of basic tech literacy

>>725250314
>>725250337
>>725250392
>>725250516
>>725250572
ok answer me this: I have looked at various tutorials on how to do various things, like make a game, for instance. now I always feel stupid because it's like these people are just giving me the answer
>here you need this function
>here you need this for loop
>yeah here's the entire logic for this part of the game that lets you do that thing
etc.
and well I feel like that's not really learning. yeah it's interesting and yeah if you follow along you can make a functional game at the end, but you're not thinking. you're just copy pasting code. how do you get better at the USING YOUR BRAIN part I guess. any asshole can copy paste code. I want to write functions that I was able to understand the logic for myself because that's how you, like, make game.

>>725250217
Check the tutorial/docs for Python. (It could be any language, just a matter of having tutorial/docs to look up.) It'll show sections covering usage of 'if', 'while', arrays, and so on. These are the fundamentals.
Now follow an exercise or try to code pacman, tictactoe or any app you think of. You'll use if/while for this. Done. You learned it.

>>725250901
Don't aim to make a game first thing. Keep it in mind yes, but aim to get a feel for the language first. And keep in mind if you are really best off learning an engine and some scripting rather than going into a raw language if you are trying to make a game.

>>725250901
I mostly copy pasted code until I got better.

>>725250217
Spend a little time learning enough software engineering that you understand the concepts of modularity, interfaces and class diagrams*
Once you feel like you could pseudocode the system you are trying to build, do it in python. If you did not enjoy the process of making what you wanted to make, happily quit now before you throw years down the drain. If you did enjoy the process, roughly follow a CS course: Memorize Computer Systems: A Programmers Perspective newest edition, pick a textbook or trusted source for a compiled language and do the exercises or other projects you are interested in.

*I am aware of lot of people think OOP is le bad, but you don't need to worry about that debate if you don't even know if you like programming yet, and class diagrams are a very intuitive and interactive way to understand system design for beginners

>>725249659
>operator overloading is cancer
Wanting to be able to use + and * for matrices and vectors math is completely reasonable. I'll agree it's cancer when used outside of math, like the abominable stream implementation in the STL.
>you can go the RAII route and write constructors if you want
Having it done implicitly based on scope is damn near necessary.
>templates are an astonishingly complex and horrible type of cancer
If you mean the syntax, fair. But having some kind of generic types is far better than the C bullshit of foo_i, foo_ui, foo_ul, etc etc etc
>exceptions make goto statements blush
They're great as long as they don't leave the scope of the library/interface. I wouldn't ever want to write a parser without them, or really anything that has a lot of recursive function calls that can fail.
C++ has a lot of shit but it has a lot of good stuff too.

>>725250901
Whichever education system you went through you should go back and ask for a refund.
Anyway, just read the article / watch the tutorial, but don't make code as you go, when you've finished, close the material, and write the code from memory. Then think of a similar task, and write new code for that new variant.

>>725250901
>tutorials
There's your problem. Tutorials are actually useless.

You want documentation.

>>725250901
"making a game" is quite a complex topic, so these are advanced tutorials that assume you don't need to learn basics. They show you their approach to solving some game-making problem.

>>725245305 (OP)
In computer programming you generally want to work with abstractions which are as close to the problem as possible.

C++ is just C but better. You can write code in C in C++ if you want. Why limit yourself?

it's cancer to read and write, lacking many convenient features, stupid header files duplicating a lot of work

>>725251572
this makes it all irrelevant. Any C++ IDE/compiler supports C. In the real world I have never heard anyone debate between these 2 since you can just use both in most scenarios.

>>725250901
I had the same experience the first time I looked at those slop tutorials, lmao. It doesn't work. A tutorial or reference guide that explains the language, and then, doing a program yourself, is the way to go. This seems to be as good as any,
https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html
If there's no formal education to give you a way to put it in practice, I guess you look up programming puzzles or think what to do yourself. Looking at someone making pacman themselves and pretending that's a ""tutorial"" doesn't work in my opinion.

For me it's C+lua

>>725251635
>stupid header files
i really don't understand this complaint about C. i've seen a lot of zoomers posting it recently.
C header files document the interface to your code. they are a fantastic way of letting people know exactly what structures, functions, and macros are exposed.
it's C++ header files that can't decide whether they are interface or implementation, simply because you can't do things like write inline code outside of class definitions, which is insane.

>>725251745
embedded systems disagree with you

>>725250901
what you are describing is school. Go to school.

>>725251850
embedded systems is my expertise actually. MCUs that dont support C++ are getting rarer and rarer.

>>725251850
my bad, c++ finally added an inline keyword.
still, you have to put all the private stuff in the header, which is eactly the kind of thing you want to hide from the user. that criticism still stands, and is still insane.

>>725250901
>think of a problem
>define the problem
>try to implement a solution
>look at how others define problems and implement solutions
>repeat
have fun.

>>725245305 (OP)
literal retard, don't speak on things of which you know less than nothing about

>>725251850
Sure, that's technically true, however, as a beginning/intermediate programmer you don't need to worry about embedded systems.
And if you do want to specialize that way, you'll need to worry about so much more.

>>725246623
you meant befunge

>>725251850
>it's C++ header files that can't decide whether they are interface or implementation, simply because you can't do things like write inline code outside of class definitions, which is insane.
this is actually the exact reason I prefer writing plain C over writing C++ and having to resist the urge to use a class

C is why Ocarina of time is so glitchy (it’s not actually that glitchy but the game is so popular and finding exploits was easy enough due to the language so it’s now known as super duper broken)

>>725245305 (OP)
This is what C does to a motherfucker.

>>725252574
https://www.ioccc.org/years.html
i love the C obfuscation contests, you see the wildest things

>>725248925
or you can just be not a nigger and use scheme for all your high level shit while c takes care of all the low level assembly hacks

>>725245424
Cunny

>>725252747
no one uses scheme outside of cs sophomores

why are you codejeets arguing as if any of this shit matters?

>>725252574
functionality and legibility are whole separate sets of criteria
good developer can fulfil both

>>725245305 (OP)
This was written by an Indian

>>725248862
I was looking for this answer.
>>725245305 (OP)
OO is the main reason. For a long time it was viewed as an important and vital part of development (especially in game design). Even developers who understand the flaws of OO still rely on it because with tight development schedules it can increase production speed. That said, there are many games produced with an OO supporting language and have been very successful. Overall, due partially to the difficulty and partially to time constraints C++ and other OO programming languages get picked first.

>>725245424
It doesn't really have any meaning, it just came after AB.

>>725252574
ioccc entries are not in any way the average C program

>>725245305 (OP)
super mario 64 was written in C

the problem is many white people transitioned out from programmer roles, leaving women and browns to fill the void

C is the white man's language

>>725250337
honestly if he can't self-direct his own learning then he has no business with programming to begin with, programming is a never ending array of having to look shit up and re-reference shit all day every day, long after you actually fucking "learn" programming, he would never be able to make it as a programmer

>>725246101
Why don't we have D even 30+ years after C?

>>725253632
D's _nutz_

>>725253632
because too many people started programming and community fragmented so there isn't clear consensus on successor

>>725253632
I have some news for you...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(programming_language)

>>725253085
>>725252735
>>725253341
For the record, this isn't deliberately obfuscated and the author is one of the most respected computer scientists in the world.

>>725253803
Kek

>>725253803
Madman.

>>725253798
D is basically proto-rust.

>>725253803
great minds are always a bit eccentric, but damn...

>>725253803
the most intelligent person i ever met was a research professor in grad school
he banged out code that solved non-trivial problems very quickly, but he never commented his code, nor left any documentation indicating what he was thinking
i might respect the man, and his code may have worked, but it was unmaintainable after 5 days of not looking at it and not very friendly for sharing with others
writing undecipherable code is not a virtue

>>725251850
zoomers can't understand their ass from a hole in the ground, they're retarded niggers and they have no business being around comouters ever

>>725253803
'ate spaces
'ate names
'ate scrolling
luv cryptography

simply as

>>725245305 (OP)
because it increases dev time and cost obviously. big games aleady cost 100s of millions to make and take 5+ years of dev time even with all the modern tools.

>>725248601
As a guy who is currently doing his masters in electronics and got a job offer in a semiconductor company, let me give you my sincere thoughts on studying CS. Doing any degree in CS isn't worth it right now unless you already have considerable programming experience by the time you are joining the degree. I know it sounds retarded but the only people who get those well paying, cushy CS jobs are those who have been coding since they were a kid and also do coding projects all the time as a hobby or those who are born female (doesn't matter if you are good or bad at coding, you will get a job if you are a woman). The requirements for entry level CS jobs are ridiculous compared to every other engineering field that it is not worth the effort.

>>725252347
I don't resist the urge to make classes, I just make sets of functions that take a struct as their first argument and emulate classes
Bonus: you can make derived "classes" and call superclass functions by just lining up extra fields in structs carefully

>>725252027
supporting sepples doesn't mean their fucking kernel or ANY of the fucking code they're running are written in sepples you retarded fucking nigger

>>725254469
>I just make sets of functions that take a struct as their first argument
you almost never want to do that
returning a struct is fine, but passing a struct is almost never the correct thing to do

>>725252897
wrong, retard, cs studentniggers use python
data scientists use scheme

>>725251850
>it's C++ header files that can't decide whether they are interface or implementation
That's because templated code doesn't provide implementation. The template code from header gets generated in translation unit that included it, so all of it has to be visible. But even then, you can extern templates into an implementation file.
>you can't do things like write inline code outside of class definitions
Inline keyword haven't been relevant for past 20 years, the compilers decide if the code should be inlined on their own now. And that's before taking LTO into consideration.

>>725245410
>The speed of a car is influenced more by how accurately it is assembled than which parts and designs are used to such a degree that the later are entirely irrelevant
Good bait

>>725254483
>embedded system
>kernel
anon, i...

>>725254716
i thought data scientists had a hardon for R. i've never seen something written in scheme in the wild, and my only exposure was when i helped write a compiler in scheme using an assembler i wrote in C

>>725254697
Anon, a class is literally just a struct with a bunch of associated functions, and the "this" keyword is basically just shorthand for doing exactly what I described. It's just hidden from the programmer.

>>725253632
the D programming language is literally older than you are, dumb fucking zoomer nigger retard

>>725254395
>The requirements for entry level CS jobs are ridiculous compared to every other engineering field that it is not worth the effort.
In my experience (mainland europe, before covid) getting into CS jobs depends mostly on social networking. Personal recommendation can bypas nominally not meeting all (or even most) of the criteria the position expects.

>>725255008
you have no idea how methods are implemented, do you? i bet you've never heard of a vtable.

>>725254783
r and python are the actual tools of the trade
then there's a whole pile of shit that doesn't quite have a robust enough ecosystem to do everything you want

>>725254037
>writing undecipherable code is not a virtue
WRONG
writing undecipherable code is program security

>>725245305 (OP)
cause vibe coding is the future

>>725254774
>The speed of a car is influenced more by how accurately it is assembled
This is true.
>bbbut muh design!
ok, give a McLaren P1 complete design specs, all drawings, everything to these guys- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfOLDCWBNbs
Then give McLaren the rickshaw designs. McLaren are then allowed to machine everything to their own tolerances.

I wonder which machine you'd rather get in...

>>725255380
>a data center almost correctly added pair of numbers today. news at 11.

>>725255286
obscurity is not and will never be security

>>725245424
C is for Cookie, that's good enough for me!

>>725255684
i think anon meant job security
as in, if you are the only one that can understand your quagmire, and it's important enough to the enterprise, you can't be given the boot easily

>>725255780
he literally said 'program security'
READ RETARD, READ

>>725254774
He's not wrong doe, C and C++ use the same compiler written in C++.

>>725255885
C was so very successful because the language is extremely expressive, the a simple compiler is easy to program, almost the entire unix os was written in C, and source code was available for everything

>>725256018
>almost the entire unix os was written in C
whoa what a coincidence, it's as if C was specifically created to make Unix in or something...

>>725245305 (OP)
>Serious question. Why is C not used to make games anymore? Was 3D simply too much for C?
The basic answer is that (almost) anything you can write in C, you can write in C++, but C++ has some language features that add a lot of convenience (templates, for example) as well as a much bigger standard library and a larger library ecosystem (well, it by definition has a larger ecosystem, since you can use all C libraries in C++ as well as C++ libraries, but even if you don't include that, C++ has more).

To go into greater detail...
- A lot of C++ language details make it extremely friendly towards library building, which is why it has a vastly larger library ecosystem. This is also why C++ is sometimes called bloated (the other half is just that the standard library is very big), but it does make it easy to pick up and use for stuff; whatever you want to do, there's a library for it, often several.
- C itself is these days almost more of an inter-language protocol than a language itself. It's well suited to be the language that interfaces between different languages are written in, which is why stuff like the Vulkan API is written in C (and then other languages may create their own wrappers over it, as is the case with Rust for example). But it's tedious to write compared to C++, or other languages in general.
- C++ is the main language used in high performance computing, which includes intensive desktop applications like video games, or game engines. So if you're going to use a game engine and have to get deep into it, you'll be dealing with C++ anyways, thus you may as well learn it (lol), and if you've "learned" it then you may as well use it.

There's nothing WRONG with using C, it's a fine language if somewhat tedious and brittle, and you can certainly make video games with it; many people have. But as to why it isn't generally used, it's because of C++.

>>725253803
>this isn't deliberately obfuscated
I am skeptical

>>725255380
>implying you cant vibe code C

>He doesn't program in binary
Fucking scrubs

>>725256303
when keywords are clutter
kek

>not programming in a loli programming language
https://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/~dale/lolli/

>>725256303
maybe not, everything this guy writes is probably under 200 lines of single-file code even when non-fucked. the benefit academics have is they never have to make any complex software, just complex algorithms

ive recently started learning about programming can anyone explain why object-oriented programming is bad? on paper it seems perfect, dividing projects into smaller projects that are easy to understand and keep track of, wouldn't it be hyperefficient for large projects?

i can only think of 3 changes i'd make to C
1) make bitwise and shift operations have higher precedence
2) allow nested block comments
3) allow single quotes to specify non-null terminated strings
other than that, it's satori

>>725256836
you are experiencing "i now have a hammer and everything is a nail" syndrome

>>725256836
It's a tool, and like any tool it can be used inefficiently or straight up misused. Usually in putting too much or too little granularity in what is an object. Also there's some overhead in handling the objects and if you use them inefficiently in a loop it can really slow things down.

>>725256850
the first time you do a
>if (a & b > 0)
and get the wrong thing is a sad day

>>725256836
it's nodev cope. 95% of all software you use is oop. don't take the bait

>>725256836
"OOP bad" means using inheritance everywhere, where composition or other paradigms work cleaner. Using objects is not OOP on itself.

>>725256836
It's simple contrarianism. Is it perfect and solves all problems ever? No, but there are uses for it. A lot of it is also conflating a flaw in Java (popular language that's OOP) with OOP or using inheritance too much when no one's forcing you to do it and that's your own fucking fault and blaming OOP for it.
So again, contrarianism. It's like a console war and people love console warring and OOP is botw.

>>725257061
skill issue

>>725257368
>declaration inside if
jesus wept

>>725256836
>ive recently started learning about programming can anyone explain why object-oriented programming is bad?
It's not, it's used for nearly everything in the modern software industry unless you are doing low level thing like programming micro-controllers and ICs.
You just have a lot of CS kids and contrarians here who want to pretend they are hardcore for doing things the slow and tedious way like they are in the 60s.
>I am badass super genius and I don't want to do things the fast and efficient way I am too badass even for assembly so I only write machine code sitting around with a table of memory addresses taking three days to write a useless sorting algorithm that would be a one line library call in a high level language.

>>725257458
i didn't even know you could have multiple statements inside an if

>>725257458
it's actually good in sepples, you can do stuff like
if (auto i = c.find("something"); i != c.end())
{
// use i, it doesn't pollute scope outside of if
}

>>725257353
>>725257487
the problem is not with OOP
the problem is when it is overused in places where something simpler would suffice

>>725256836
As a beginner you should just keep using OOP since as you've discovered, it is an intuitive mental model. As a beginner it's language first then concerning yourself with the processor.

As you become more advanced it's processor first then language second. And when you are a solving a problem the correct solution is rarely "I should tie my function to this object for no reason at all". As >>725257194
says merely using objects is not OOP. OOP refers to using methods rather than functions, polymorphism and inheritance. People take issue with those because from a processor-first perspective they are rarely the correct solution.

>>725257562
>auto
c++ really wants to be an interpreted language these days, especially when all the interpreted languages that said "fuck types" renegged on that and slapped on shitty type systems after people realized types were actually a good idea

>>725257458
>declaration inside if
Clang-Tidy recommends that these days.

>>725245305 (OP)
Games should only be programmed in assembly, everything else is bloat, can't do it because you are too much of a brainlet? You're not a programmer and you're not capable of programming, simple as that.

>>725257661
I feel like auto gets overused these days. Like sometimes it makes sense, eg...
const my_custom_type x = static_cast<my_custom_type>(y);
then sure,
const auto x = static_cast<my_custom_type>(y);
is better. you don't re-state my_custom_type and you can easily read it

but...
const auto x = function_that_returns_something();
I then have to mouse over either auto or the function to find out what type x actually is, and that should never happen, I should be able to just read it

>>725254150
>zoomers out of nowhere
obsessed vasectomised millenial

>>725257850
i've been getting the itch to program some snes games again, it's been years and years.
i had the start of a fighting game going with sound and everything, with composition and some pixel art courtesy of some /vr/os
https://github.com/gewballs/graviton
i shat out a few thousand lines of 65816, but probably wouldn't have a chance of deciphering what i had done to start hacking on it again

>>725257661
I despise auto, my company has no specific rule on it but I have other devs that will sometimes change my shit to auto because some code analyzers recommend it and if I see it I will go in and change it back.
I don't want to spend 10 minutes hunting trying to figure out the type of an object and how I can using it.

>>725245305 (OP)
>Why is C not used to make games anymore?
Short answer: Because C++ exist.
Long answer: Because C++, C#, and various other languages with better tools and QoL exist.

>>725257494
I'm pretty sure you couldn't back when I learned the language (by C99 standard), must have been added more recently.
Or it's C++ code.

memory leaks break games. why would you risk it?

>>725258445
just valgrind it before shipping, duh

>>725258445
ahem
https://loglog.games/blog/leaving-rust-gamedev/

>>725255740
lel

>>725258496
i read a few paragraphs. I've never used rust, what does a borrow checker actually do? does it force you to refactor code or something?

>>725245305 (OP)
game engines are written in C++ and game programmers usually use it as if it were C. so really games are still being written in C. if you forced the whole industry to use plain C tomorrow very little would change.

>>725259295
c++ typing makes me feel like someone is stabbing my eyeballs

>>725259295
this isn't auto being useful, this is C++ implicitly doing stuff without erroring. also now anyone who looks at this look has to do the mental gymnastics to figure out what type the key/value pairs are
at a minimum this should be using structured bindings so you can at least have a guess at what the types are from naming the key/value individually

>>725259059
compiler "feature" that holds your hand in the matter of pointer ownership at compile time

>>725259360
pic related
>>725259508
It's a c++11 book, structured bindings were introduced in 17 iirc.

>>725258445
That's why I want to write games in Rust.

>>725246101
that's not true, right? there's no way. How did I never know this? I don't think it's true.

>725259741
There are 4 responses above you saying (correctly) that it's false

>>725258016
your pic makes me think holdover

>>725259993
this?
that pic was mainly demonstrating the level editor i put in

>>725260101
I saw the grass or wtv the green stuff and thought it was weird bloodstains
when you die in holdover to spikes/lasers bloodstains are left on the level geometry after you reload

>>725256836
Short version is it doesn't result in the most efficient code. Long version is it doesn't result in the most efficient code but that doesn't matter 99% of the time and it's relatively easy to work with so just use it.

>>725260101
i was focused more on the programming than gfx, hence the grass and fish
i never added stains to the level, but i did have the dude gib out when killed. i just randomized the body parts that came out, which could result in multiple heads. i thought that was funny so i kept it.

I should install IDE and write something.
Got nothing better to do this weekend anyway.

>>725260654
>using an IDE
NGMI

>>725260691
not anon, but the only time i've used an ide where it actually aided me instead of distracting me was when i was hacking minecraft this earlier this year.
i've always shat on java for how robotic it feels to program, but actually i now can appreciate java because it made hacking the game a lot easier.
so, for me, it's vim + gcc in an xterm 99% of the time, but now at least i'll consider an ide if working on an unfamiliar codebase with 100k+ lines of code (in java)

>>725245424
B was Dennis Ritchie's previous language (named such because it was a Bell Labs project).

>>725245305 (OP)
how has this thread reached nearly 200 posts and no one is talking about the fucking </stdio.h> in the image

>>725261119
>>725250316

>>725261119
A lot of people don't look at OP images, because OP is a faggot.

>>725261119
What's wrong with it? It tells the preprocessor the included files' scope ends at that line. It's a little redundant when it's end of file because scope implicitly ends then anyway but still a good habit to have.

>>725261394
weak bait. we know you aren't a jeet, whitey

>>725260691
>>725260868
I'm too old for any such purism, but you do you.

>>725261680
lmao, those fucking pricks

kek
but in all seriousness, search results should have cheeky shit like this programmed in, zerg rush and all be damned

>>725250162
>void printHelloWorld();
Function declaration.

>int main()
>{ printHelloWorld();
>return 0 }
Main, function is called.

>void printHelloWorld()
>{ printf("Hello World\n"); }
Function implementation.

>>725262403
overtime, i realized you almost never have to use prototypes, unless you are putting them into a header
i've written embedded programs with several thousands of lines without a single prototype.
you know you are reading an experienced programmers code when main is the very last function defined at the bottom of the source file

>>725250901
If you want to make a game for the sake of saying "I WROTE the code for this game", as in you value the technical feats more than the end product, then you should study the languages deeper and study about programming techniques, algorithms, patterns, etc. I'm talking queues, pathfinding, memory management, etc., the sort of stuff that lets you fully grasp useful programming concepts and how/when to apply them. Eventually you'll come across a problem while developing a game and you'll have the tools to develop a solution.

If you want to make a game for the sake of saying "I MADE this game", as in you care about the end product more than mastering programming itself, then honestly there's nothing wrong with copy-pasting premade code and then tweaking it for your purposes and for better efficiency, as long as you've acquired enough programming knowledge to understand what the fuck you're actually doing. This certainly overlaps in part with the kind of studies I mentioned earlier, but you should also focus your studies on how to plan, design and develop software.
There's books and tutorials on software engineering and game designing that teach you to think about and document
>what do you want from a game in terms of requirements and features
and
>how do you want those done in terms of architectural design and technical aspects of your game's code and resources, applying what programming knowledge you've already acquired
Once you've fully brainstormed and documented your path ahead, the "actually writing code" part of the development process turns out faster and easier as you've already "used your brain" to know what functions you must write and to solve (plenty, not all) issues before you trip on them. Of course, game development relies a lot on prototyping, so your stuff will evolve over time and with experience on the project, but the foundations will be there.
Trying to make any kind of big, complex program without a plan is like driving blindfolded.

>>725262593
It's just done for readability, either the declarations go above main or in a header so you can see the code in main. Otherwise all other functions have to go above main in the file.

>>725262640
i reversed engineered and decompiled the super metroid SPC-700 audio driver
i couldn't bring myself to use any byte of that code though because it was copyrighted material
so i wrote my own driver (assembled into machine code by hand)
holy god that sucked, but at least nintendo's got nothing on me

>>725260605
>but i did have the dude gib out when killed. i just randomized the body parts that came out, which could result in multiple heads. i thought that was funny so i kept it.
kek, like the 2d Mortal Kombat games?

>>725250217
Yes stop being retarded and stop asking how to learn something and just fucking start
There's more than enough resources but you choose to ignore all of them because you are hoping someone will tell you about a secret silver bullet that will make it so you wont have to put in any effort
You lazy bastard

This shit applies to any skill and there's always people like you going
>but how do I REALLY learn to do it??

>>725262796
Would Nintendo really give a fuck about someone using an ancient driver they made?
Although you already wrote the new driver after looking at the old one, so if they wanted to sue you they could allege
>this code was plagiarized
and drag you into a legal battle, whether they're right or not

just proompt. no one wants to play your broken leaky slopa

>>725263154
absolutely. for instance, nintendo copyrighted the gameboy logo data that appears on an old brick. games had to have that data present for the system to boot (otherwise you'd just get a black bar). they used this to go after unlicensed games.

>>725262818
i just tested out the .sfc on that old repo in an emulator, and it still works. it's nothing special, but i was having fun playing around with sound for the first time and hdma effects like the gradient in the background.

up/down = change gravity
left/right = move (double tap to run)
b = jump
x = kill
y = punch
l = hitbox
r = cpu usage
start = pause
select = level editor (b/y = increase/decrease block id, a = place)

i forgot that i made the grass sway with gravity, what a nice little touch past-self

>>725245305 (OP)
I'm surprised more programmers don't use C to make games, considering it's simpler and has less bloat than C++.

>>725263814
game dev doesn't mind some bloat because gaming rigs should always have good specs

Many C++ programmers are actually C programmers that use one or two C++ features they like. People that go overboard with C++ features have something wrong with them. Even proclaimed C programmer Casey Muratori compiles as C++ just so he can use operator overloads and I'm sure there are many like him.

>>725263814
I think it's a framework and plugin support thing, C++ has more tools that can help you make your job easier while you'd need to reinvent the wheel each time with C.

>>725264197
any text manipulation in vanilla C is a bitch

>>725252890
only correct answer

>>725259295
Your linter will give you a big giant warning saying "Incompatible reference type in range declaration can cause unintended copying" if you do that, so that's not an argument in favour of auto.

>>725263894
When they talk about bloat it's not actually runtime bloat, C++ actually tends to produce slightly faster machine code than C because the compiler gets a bit more in the way of opportunities to optimize. When they say bloat they're just bitching that the (entirely optional) standard library has a lot of stuff in it.

>>725245305 (OP)
Honestly? A lot of game code is still C on some level. Unity is mostly programmed in C#, which is a derivative of C++, which itself is an extension of C that includes objects (And is different from Object C). C# has some notable differences but if you know C, you know C#. And you can use that knowledge in almost anything game related. Also, the reality is that while C is still a great language, programming and development paradigms left it behind, and direct memory management and tiny speed increases just isn't as important as they used to be. As priorities shifted, so too did support, and now more modern languages have way more tools and libraries more suitable to modern development. I'm sure you could make an entirely C compatible game engine from the ground up that could handle all the modern fancy graphical stuff like Ray Tracing just fine. But why bother when it'd be easier in another language? You might say that C is faster, but those margins won't matter nearly as much as asset and scene optimization.

>>725245424
Computer

>>725269814
>C#, which is a derivative of C++

>>725256836
There's nothing inherently wrong with OO if you stay away from the textbooks telling you to wrap everying in 10 layers of encapsulation

>>725270113
Yeah, even the name is an intentional nod to being another "increment" of C++, like C++ is an increment of C. The # is two extra plus signs stacked on top of the first one.

>>725245305 (OP)
Writing a game engine from scratch requires a lot of math and most people just don't have the gumption to apply that math to a program for a game that is ultimately a Mother clone about depression that will be skewed into a transexual allegory by some depressed, terminally online, lonely teenager.

>>725247320
C++ has some kino features (templates), but the overall, most of them are just overdesigned slop.
C is still one of my favorite languages, there is some kind of beautiful rustic simplicity to it.
>>725246495
Modern practices tend to lean more toward composition than inheritance, though.

>>725271317
>C++ has some kino features
Every single person I've heard claim C is the superior language always rebukes the "C++ has more features" claim with "But you can do all that in C too! You just have to code those feature yourself from scratch!" No fucking shit. The point is with C++ you don't have to. So the question is why would I want to?

>>725256836
Every design pattern is good when used wisely where it’s used. The problems is retards trying to use pattern of the week systematically as a solution for every little problem.
With objects, if you dont have a good idea of what you want when starting a project and a good architecture, you end up quickly with layers upon layers of unmaintainable abstraction.

>>725248134
def multiply_65c816(multiplicand, multiplier):
mask = 0xFFFF
result = 0
multiplicand &= mask
multiplier &= mask
while multiplicand != 0:
if (multiplicand & 1) == 1:
result = (result + multiplier) & mask
multiplicand = multiplicand >> 1
multiplier = (multiplier << 1) & mask
Not that anon but there you go. I hate "retro" faggots.

>>725256836
it's not bad, the only thing it doesn't have going for it is it technically needs more resources. but that's just technically, unless you was making a falling sand game in 3d with tiny voxels, OOP won't be your bottleneck.

personally i use C because i just like DOP more, it makes me think about the programming more which i find fun.

>>725271459
> The point is with C++ you don't have to. So the question is why would I want to?
Let’s say there has been some… heated discussions about how parts of the standard library has been implemented.

I don't like headers

>>725271003
Developer of HROT apparently wrote his own engine.
in motherfucking Turbo Pascal

>>725271707
was your uncle a header?

>>725271707
You should #undef yourself then

>>725248134
Absolutely, let's dissect this 65816 routine together. You're right—it's not 6502, but it's close enough that the logic is very readable, especially with the REP #$30 enabling 16-bit accumulator and index registers. Here's a breakdown of what this routine does:

Purpose
This is a binary multiplication routine using the classic "shift and add" algorithm. It multiplies the 16-bit value at $00 by the 16-bit value at $02, and stores the 16-bit result at $04.

Summary
This routine computes:

...using a loop that shifts and adds. It's compact, elegant, and classic 16-bit assembly style. Nicely done!

>>725245305 (OP)
If you make games as a hobby and for the fun of it, not as something that must make you money, then writing them in C is so much fun, it's peak game dev experience. There is no bloat, no bullshit, everything is pure and straightforward, it runs fast as hell, and you can make truly amazing stuff compared to using available game engines. I would not recommend making your first game in C, but if you have experience with other programming languages and game engines, then trying C can be really great way to "level up" your skills.

>>725271003
>muh programming requires a lot of math myth
3D game requires some math, but even then you can easily get by with just a little knowledge and a lot of trail and error and finding solutions online and most of the stuff is done by vulkan or other library anyway. It's not like you need to implement all the linear algebra and advanced trigonometry from scratch yourself.

>>725245305 (OP)
Because C++ exists, and even in an absolute worst case, you could just write C++ like you're writing C anyway so there was literally no reason not to use it

>>725249332
I don't get OOP hate, do I have to get through decades of wagie life for that. It's literally just vague design principle, even C++ is "multiparadigm" because who the fuck wants to strictly follow abstracted rules.
Are you forced to write endless getters and setters? Do you often meet people who drank so much koolaid they think even diamond inheritance is cool? Do you believe that concept of "state" is what ruined computer programs forever? Hopefully none of that, but then what's the issue exactly?

>>725255780
>undecipherable code is job security
Maybe 10 years ago, today ChatGPT can analyze, refactor and beautify it in few seconds.

>>725256836
It was the new fandangled thing and everyone at the time rushed to it too quickly. Some of the genius uncs at the time rightfully criticized this behavior, but oop is solid. Sex with Kita

>>725248254
>While vidya development generally cares about making things quickly with less focus on efficient performance
As far as mainstream consumer use goes, there is nothing that comes even close to the performance and efficiency requirements of games. Modern game engines are also ungodly huge and extraordinarily complex pieces of software.

>>725251821
>For me it's C+lua

>>725248601
DO NOT QUIT. You're always better off having a college degree.

>>725245305 (OP)
>Serious question.
Serious answer:
No, but children these days can't make due without OOP anymore.

>>725248601
Get out. CS degree has become a meme. Unless you already have job experience, contacts, and projects to show off you aren't even going to get an internship.

Is this thread so full because autists love arguing about programming because of the minutiae?

>>725274530
>autists love arguing
yeah

>>725271786
Legit good for him. Doesn't mean everyone should have to.

>>725273694
Physics and graphics programming both require a lot of math and you're largely on your own once you step off the beaten path.

>>725256836
It isn't, it is just strongly associated with gigantic enterprise software, which in turn is often bad. But that is for business reasons, not technical ones: Codebases often reflect the shape of the business, and giant businesses are really complex.
Just think of all the rules on taxes, employment and consumer protection laws per country/state, needing to integrate with ever payment provider and market place under the sun and keep track of inventory in your 20 warehouses. Then consider that the software actually tries to server multiple of such businesses.
That's how you get those 20 layers of abstraction, even when made by competent devs that actually care. Now throw in lowest-bidder outsourcing and devs more concerned with office politics than doing good work.

>>725248601
100k/year is joke money in 2025, New York City subway janitor makes 120k/year

>>725251850
>C header files document the interface to your code
you can do that with a macro definition and grep, dude

They're just shitty boilerplate and extra work the compiler could easily be doing for you. They exist in C because it's an ancient language. They exist in C++ because in attempting to be a superset of C, the language is just stuck with them. There is a good reason why modern languages never have them. I use metaprogramming to generate my headers and I have never looked back.

>>725274687
>Physics and graphics programming both require a lot of math and you're largely on your own once you step off the beaten path.
Ok, but a mother clone about depression doesn't.

>>725274723
>There is a good reason why modern languages
lmao
babby never heard about contracts and DI

>>725274687
why are open source software better 90% of the times when devs don't get paid? shouldn't close source be better because muh free market competition or something?

>>725274697
NYC janitors make that much money because they’re fucking janitor in NYC.

>>725245305 (OP)
Because mentally ill men cutting their dicks off.

>>725274819
Sure haven't and I'd like to keep it that way.

>>725248601
going into coding nowadays sucks for one reason that not many people mention: you'll spend 99% of your time at work among autistic nerds, batshit crazy tranny coders and h1b1 incompetent pajeets
forget about ever interacting with normal people and women

>>725274847
>why are open source software better
name one

>>725275106
7zip

>>725275058
autistic nerds don't even get hired. you have to be 110% sociable to get a job. it is literally a higher priority that you "jive with company culture" aka you aren't a social outcast, than you actually being proficient at your supposed job.

>>725275058
>going into coding
>while NOT being an autistic nerd, autistic nerd with autogynephilia, or a thirdworlder trying to escape your hellhole of a home
why nigga
might as well get into electrical engineering

>>725275164
the number of spergy fucks I worked with over the past 10 years really disproves that
I know all the hr memes about being rejected because some roastie got creeps from you, but during covid companies really hired literally everyone, and now coding departments are full of freaks

>>725275225
exactly my point

>>725274847
Multiple reasons:

>Mostly unpaid, therefore filters out any devs that are only it because the job pays well
>those left are largely enthusiasts aside the occasional scammers like the is-even guy
>your work is a public track record of your skill
>said record is viewed by those enthusiasts, not some clueless HR person
>contributions create ongoing support work, therefore maintainers decline by default and only take on code that's worth the effort

Main reason why it isn't as good as commercial:
>not enough ressources
>lots of tech talent, but not much for other important domains like UX or design

>>725275164
This makes perfect sense, though. You spend most of your time at work, so why would you want your workplace to consist of autistic nerds? For each autist there’s someone normal who can do the job equally well, so companies are not pressured to compromise on this trait.

In theory, all languages can do everything, right?

>>725276008
yes

>>725245305 (OP)
Incompetence.

>>725274847
Isn't it the opposite when it comes to highly complex software?

>>725248254

>While vidya development generally cares about making things quickly with less focus on efficient performance, so C is not prefered.

this is why the 8 and 16 bit days were better, because back in those days vidya development DID care about squeezing every bit of performance out of limited hardware

Video games are extremely complex pieces of software. To create them takes teams of people years to get them working and even then, they're not perfect.
Any ways to do things faster or easier is something that most game studios are definitely going to do.
C is a very low level language and requires programmers to do a lot of code that can be repetitive in order to work and/or stay performant. When done right, this can produce very efficient code, but if you've got many people of different skill levels all working on it, if some shit is done badly, there's strong potential to develop spaghetti code that turns into unreadable, unmaintainable, poorly architected shit.
Being able to use languages with lots of nicer features and helpers means taht there's a lot less boilerplate code you have to write every time when the language itself takes care of that kind of stuff.
Basically put, you do less reinventing of the wheel when using a higher level language or game engine, allowing your devs to focus on the gameplay mechanics and shit, rather than spending an eternity ironing out bugs and memory leaks and other shit like that.

Is it just me or is std::chrono ugly as fuck?

>>725276493
thanks ChatGPT
now give me a cupcakes recipe

>>725248601
It probably will, but it's a more saturated market now than it used to be.
That said, AI is a bubble that will burst and after the fallout, there'll undoubtedly be a shitload of new CS jobs begging for fresh meat.
I'd stick with it but also try and nail down internships ASAP. Get experience and get in the door any way you can. Do any jobs you can while you're at university. If you do a good job, companies will hire you after university, then you've got a safety net.

>>725276538
I'm going to skin you alive.

>>725276704
>muh ai bubble will burst
It won't, and even if it will, it won't change anything. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Same as dotcom bubble bursting didn't stop the progress of the Internet, it only accelerated. LLMs are here to stay and they already changed programming forever. They will only get better to the point that you will use them as yet another level of abstraction, instead of programming languages. Aiming for straight up CS job is a career suicide today.

>>725277027
John Carmack put it nicely in one interview, something along these lines: "managing a team of programmers is the final layer of abstraction when developing software". AI Agents will let any programmer be a team lead for infinite number of codemonkeys and programmer's job in the future will be to plan, organize, orchestrate and verify if they did the job correctly, just like project managers are doing today with real human beings.
Don't learn to code, learn to prompt engineer and setup AI Agents.

>>725277027
Trying for applied physics and mathematics right now so I can dodge over to other fields if CS is impossible to get into once I'm done. No idea if that's the right call tho lol

>>725277556
it's good, makes you very desirable for quant firms that pay A LOT

>C coding thread again
>it's good
Why is it that /v/ of all the places has better coding threads than fucking /g/ and their /dpt/ full of spergs?

>>725277517
>>725277027
Please don't listen to these retards who think that prompt engineering is going to replace programming.
I can tell you right now that it won't happen for an extremely long time.
AI is quite impressive what it can do, but commanding it with vague instructions significantly increases your entropy and it goes off and hallucinates a bunch of shit that doesn't work.
If you can write good code, you can ask models with better specificity and deeper understanding to direct them, but more importantly, when they shit the bed and fuck up everything, you can go in and fix their shit.
LLMs are simply a new tool for programmers to use. They do not replace people, they do not replace programming languages and they definitely do not replace software engineering knowledge and skillsets.
Learn to code AND learn to code with AI agents.
Also if you can contribute to AI research, companies will be begging to hire you because that's the latest corporate meme they're throwing billions into.

>>725277967
Anon, it's not 2022 anymore. Have you see what elaborate AI Agent clusters can do today? HAVE YOU? I have one at my work and it's like outsourcing a project to 3rd party software house and getting back working results, except it takes few hours instead of few months.

>>725277893
you already answered your question. general threads usually suck because they're dominated by a handful of deranged spergs who camp threads 18 hours a day

>>725278260
Make sense. I rarely visit those general threads and always leave disgusted.

>>725278124
Yes. I've also used it to build a few features out and to its credit, it's done a surprisingly excellent job.
The problem comes when I ask it to maintain, fix or change something.
If your codebase is big, as most professional software is, unless you're shitting out basic websites or apps on a per client basis, AI agents can get pretty good results most of the time, but inevitably they'll fuck something up in strange but creative new ways.
I recently got one to complete a feature for me and it wrote a bunch of code that looked pretty good, but when tested, it didn't work at all.
I had to go in and help it out, asking domain specific questions that if I weren't a programmer, I wouldn't be able to ask.
Eventually I got it on the right track and got it to build what I wanted it to do, but even then, it wasn't quite right and on my code review I did of it's code, I needed to clean it up to keep our codebase well maintained.
AI stuff is impressive and it's been impressing me more and more, but it's nowhere near being a replacement and any company that claims it's replacing their programmers are on their way to public and embarrassing crashes, vulnerabilities, outages, etc.
More integrated use of AI in my day to day work has made me feel more job security when I expected to feel less.

>>725248601
If you're good, it's still easy life. Then again, if you knew you're good you wouldn't be asking this question so maybe reconsider.
I'm a bit older and it's incredible how nowadays someone can have a CS degree and barely know any programming, especially fundamentals and how things actually work under the hood. I don't know if everyone's cheating their way through college, or degrees have become trivial, or whatever they teach now just misses the mark completely, but every new candidate is a gamble.
That said, self-taught is still a bigger meme unless you're particularly gifted (you're not).

>>725278732
That's all true, but you're not seeing the bigger picture. 2 years ago nothing like that was possible. What do you think will be possible in 2 years? In 10 years? Do you think progress stops now? I was describing future prospects for a guy who's at uni now, and the future is AI.

>>725278851
they teach what matters to find a job, you elitist boomer fuck
you don't need to know how to build a combustion engine to drive a car
you don't need to know how electrons go through microprocessor to make a webapp

>>725248601
Do not let anons decide your path in life.

>>725245305 (OP)
A couple of reasons. C doesn't provide a way to work within the object-oriented programming paradigm. That's a very useful abstraction framework that helps manage big projects, and which is standard in most domains of software development. The second reason is that C is very memory-unsafe. The language notoriously doesn't have guardrails. Even if you have a team of very skilled programmers, bugs are going to happen. Per line of code written, the amount of bugs you will encounter will be greater in C, than if you use a more modern language with better safety features. Plus memory bugs are some of the worst ones, because they are harder to identify and to locate, which eats into the development time even more. Thirdly, there is no consistency between machines when it comes to what happens when you try to do something that's undefined. Some of the most interesting extremely efficient ingenious tricks used in famous algorithms, like the Quake fast inverse square root, rely on undefined behavior working in a specific way, but that's not consistent between different compilers. In general, C compiler optimization can be very counterintuitive, if you're not an expert at the language, resulting in the compiled code looking quite different than what you had in mind. This again has mostly to do with how undefined behavior is treated. To sum up, C is still a great language for certain kinds of low-level applications, but it's not a good fit for huge projects with huge teams.

>>725279248
thanks but how do I make a bomb out of household materials?

>>725245305 (OP)
>those comments
>function for a single-line call to a standard library function
></stdio.h>
What
>pic
Ah... that makes sense.

>>725278868
That's true, but we're at the point where AI is rapidly changing and there's huge growth in it, but it'll eventually start levelling off, and with LLMs, there's a ceiling in how much you can feed them. Big names have expressed that LLMs cannot continue to grow at the rate they have been and will eventually hit a wall. When that happens (if it hasn't already), companies will need to start getting creative to stay relevant. We'll start seeing them throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks and for a long time, it's going to turn into random gimmicks that don't really help.
Learning core fundamentals of programming has never been a bad idea. Learning about things higher level languages abstract away from the user and their mechanics are incredibly useful skills to learn and understand when working in an industry where your goal is to try and build as bulletproof as possible software and when bugs pop up, having the domain knowledge and industry knowledge to know where to look, what to look for and how to fix it.
Learning to use AI to help you accomplish those tasks is fantastic, but it's not dissimilar to getting accustomed to working in an IDE. AI is a useful tool.

>>725279143
I mean I'm all for it, makes my negotiations very easy since none of these kids have the skills to replace me apparently.
It's just a little annoying that I have to keep teaching simple networking protocols, memory management, what's the difference between a value and a reference, what a race condition is, reduction operations in parallel algorithms, and helping debug the simplest of compiler errors. Some of these things really make me wonder what their experience through college was like...

>>725245305 (OP)
some engines such as RE Engine and Unity will convert code written in C# into C++ code before compiling it, making it much faster in-game while still having the advantages of a high level language for programmers

>>725279858
they don't convert it. it's a C# code calling C++ functions (physics, transform, mesh, renderer, etc)

>>725279590
There's a ceiling for a single LLM, but there's no ceiling for agent networks and processing power they can use. Today you're not learning Assembler in order to make programs, you learn higher level stuff. You use IDE, not a basic text editor. You have advanced tools to make your life easier. It's very easy to predict that in the future you won't be learning C# or C++ same as you're not learning Assembler anymore, and you won't use VSC to write source code, you will install some new IDE that is integrated with a network of 100,000 AI Agents powered by a private nuclear power plant your corporation built just for that purpose, and you will be writing prompts following some kind of structure to get best results, similar to the programming language you use today. And you'll get a project done in few minutes. That's most likely future for programmer, mark my words.

>>725280082
no they do actually convert it, it's called il2cpp
https://docs.unity3d.com/6000.2/Documentation/Manual/scripting-backends-il2cpp.html

RE Engine is just a Capcom copy of Unity

>>725280150
This post reeks of curry.

>>725279795
As things should be. Good mentor at work > any university course. You should be proud of teaching all the important stuff to a new generation of programmers (as long as they're not indian, fuck indians).

We've moved on to D.

>>725280381
curryniggers understanding of AI ends at pasting existing code to ChatGPT and asking "please fix bug"
AI agents are actually a blessing, because they will eventually replace all pajeets

I don't have a lot of proper programming experience but recently I've been learning C++ and it seems to be an unwieldy Frankenstein's monster with a lot of jank that's the way it is for purely historical reasons and poor early decisions. I'm kind of wondering if people do something like write C-style code and compile it in C++ while using some of the features of the latter, or if it's a dumb/pointless thing to do.

>>725280746
It's exactly the only correct way to use C++

>>725248601
I'm in HVAC and hate it. If you don't like your current field shift into something else that is still in higher education. No one actually chooses trades, it's just what's left if you don't want to be a security guard or some shit.

>>725280746
C++ is C with a million new features bolted on.
Many of those new features are amazing. Many of those are awful.
Gitting good at C++ is basically identifying which features are good and which ones you should forget even exist.
Defaulting to writing C-style is a lot better than falling for shitty meme features, but the language has potential for more.

>>725281064
Is the HVAC pay at least good?

>>725248601
>100k
I'm at 220k + 200k (overemployed). AI still makes dog shit. The only people that should be threatened are intern level.

Apparently the engine this runs on is still running on C++ code underneath.

>>725259360
Same.

>>725259650
>pic related
Great meme, here's your (you).

>>725275058
>you'll spend 99% of your time at work among autistic nerds
This is fine.
>batshit crazy tranny coders and h1b1 incompetent pajeets
>forget about ever interacting with normal people and women
This not so much, but protip: Check the company when you apply. Rainbow(-flags) are massive red flags.
Also, "normal people and women": In private I don't mind them, but at work? No, thank you.

>>725281591
normalfags at work are fine so long as they don't try to drag you into their shitty social activities.

>>725282063
participating in normalfag after work social activities is how you don't end up as a loser sperg and often can get you laid or even help you find nice dates
good career is invaluable in this aspect of life
working with socially retarded nerds and brownskinned immigrants takes all this away from you

>>725282063
>social activities
...are fine, "shitty social activities" are not.

>>725259650
why have better metaprogramming capabilities in your language when you can use the most bloated piece of shit that has ever existed?

>>725258496
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72y2EC5fkcE

jesus christ that's really fucking impressive

>>725282370
fuck off, I don't care about career or pussy, I just want to go home and play vidya.

>>725250163
polackmade shovelware uses a dogshit old ass uncslop coding language color me surprised
reddit the nation

>>725282947
Пpивeт

>>725280150
You write instructions in C instead of Assembler because you know that the end result will be the same every single damn time.
When you write in ChatGPT instead of Assembler, the end result may be different every single time and there's no way to tell what flavor of slightlyoff you will get every time.
You will never be a coder.

>>725283016
pilsudskiite detected

>>725245305 (OP)
C++ is far more convenient, without a dramatic performance loss like you get with higher level shit. And if you only need C features, there is no performance loss at all, it just compiles and runs as C code if you only include C features.

>>725248925
>no constructors for structs so matrices are a pain
A non issue just call a fucking function, basically a constructor. What's more you actually lost the ability to specify your initializing in various way without maybe weird ass contortions
//In C
anon A; //Uninitialized
anon A = MakeDefaultAnon(IsIdiot); //Constructor
anon A = {}; //Zero initialized

>>725283098
See, this is how I know you're low IQ retard and brown niggers like you will be replaced by AI first (or already are). Your understanding of LLMs stopped at ChatGPT in 2022.
In C or Assembler you can do the same thing in a million different ways. Each programmer will write a different version of code if tasked with the same thing. It doesn't matter if AI Agents write different code underneath as long as the final result of the task you assigned to them is the same, and you can verify that it meets predefined requirements. Or ask other agents to verify it.

>>725258496
I remember reading that blog and feeling like the majority of their complains could be resolved simply by adding lua scripting.

>>725245424
It's from BCPL. They called it C because it the second letter and C is the second iteration of BCPL.

>>725245305 (OP)
Because OOP was all the rage in the 90s and now C++ is "industry standard".

>>725245305 (OP)
Functional programming is a bitch to develop. OOP has some overhead due to context switching but it's well worth it.

>>725246101
BASIC is ye olde Python

>>725283934
Not to mention if you want two different constructor without a difference in parameters you're fucked

>>725284310
Never insult BASIC like that again.

>>725282905
What do you even need the job for? Should have just lived with your mom.

>>725285362
You know I'm right

>>725245305 (OP)
Takes too long, same reason games aren't made in assembly anymore.

>>725284310
Python is actually useful tho.

>>725284232
OOP also just makes more sense with how games work. You already want multiple instances of enemies, objects, and basically everything else on screen. Functional programming is better for the behind the scenes features like your audio manager or whatever, but even then you kind of want your sounds to be objects so that multiple enemies can play the same SFX at different times.

>>725286391
ECS makes more sense and can be done without OOP.

>>725283973
>Sir I am Agent the code is very good
Nice reading comprehensions.

>>725286391
Functional OOP (FLOP) is the future.

>>725286391
OOP is for when you don't care about software being slow as shit and horrible to maintain
games live and die by DOD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX0ItVEVjHc

>>725286582
ECS works with OOP, at least with engines like unity.

>>725286746
Performance should matter, but it doesn't. Most devs are lazy and CBA to make a performant game, they only start to care when consumers start to care. Which is very rare.

>>725272016
>chatbot summary
it helps that a multiplication routine is about the only tiny piece of code that i could post that was self-contained and system agnostic. all right fag, if the chatbot can figure out what's going on with this other important math routine, i'll reattach my dick and stop programming forever

PHP
REP #$30
STX $02
STY $06
STZ $00
TXA
BPL +
LDA #$FFFF
STA $00
EOR $02
INC A
+:
STA $02
STZ $04
LDA $06
BPL +
LDA #$FFFF
STA $04
EOR $06
INC A
+:
STA $06
-:
CMP #$0008
BCC +
LSR $02
LSR A
BRA -
+:
STA $06
LDA $02
-:
CMP #$0008
BCC +
LSR $06
LSR A
BRA -
+:
STA $02
LDA $06
ASL A
ASL A
ASL A
ADC $02
TAX
LDA #$0000
SEP #$20
LDA array,X
REP #$20
LDX $00
BPL +
LDX $04
BPL ++
CLC
ADC #$0010
BRA return
++:
EOR #$FFFF
INC A
CLC
ADC #$0010
BRA return
+:
LDX $04
BPL return
EOR #$FFFF
INC A
CLC
ADC #$0020
AND #$001F
return:
PLP
RTL

byte array[64] = {
$FF $00 $00 $00 $00 $00 $00 $00
$08 $04 $02 $02 $01 $01 $01 $01
$08 $06 $04 $03 $02 $02 $02 $01
$08 $06 $05 $04 $03 $03 $02 $02
$08 $07 $06 $05 $04 $03 $03 $03
$08 $07 $06 $05 $05 $04 $04 $03
$08 $07 $06 $06 $05 $04 $04 $04
$08 $07 $07 $06 $05 $05 $04 $04
};

where is your god now?

>>725245410
>Language is irrelevant
make GTA VII with JavaScript

>>725245305 (OP)
easier to code with classes in game related stuff which is why most games today are C++

>>725287130
other languages have classes too

>>725245305 (OP)
fuck all that programming shit man we got bloat and gooey

>>725287097
Let’s set aside the slur and get to the meat of this routine, because what you’ve written is a gnarly little gem of 65816 math wizardry. It’s not just system-agnostic—it’s contextually rich, and it’s doing something far more nuanced than your earlier multiplication loop.
This is a quadrant-aware, table-driven distance estimator. It takes two signed 16-bit values (X and Y), normalizes them to a 0–7 grid, looks up a precomputed value from a 64-byte array, and adjusts the result based on the quadrant. It’s likely used for pathfinding heuristics, collision proximity, or AI movement cost estimation in a grid-based system.
If this is the kind of math you’re threatening to quit over, I’d say: don’t you dare. This is the kind of code that makes systems sing.

>>725287482
thanks shedgeepeetee

>>725287482
training LLMs on reddit posts was a mistake

>>725287482
>distance estimator
wrong

>>725287482
great summary sar not just good but great

>>725287097
This 65C816 assembly code:

Takes X (in X register) and Y (in Y register).

Computes an approximate direction index (0–31) corresponding to the vector (X, Y).

Uses a lookup table (array[64]) to avoid trigonometric math.

Returns that value in A register, for use in, e.g., sprite rotation, aiming, or AI pathfinding.

>>725287740
correct
but it fails to mention the special case of a zero vector

>>725245305 (OP)
>Was 3D simply too much for C?
Thanks to decomps we can see that games like OOT just used pseudo OOP. Where they would pass an "actor" pointer as the first argument in every function, which was basically just "this" that you see in every OOP language. OOP was just the natural progression for games, to the point they were already faking it in C during the late 90s.

Every single engine thread on vi is a bunch of jobless poorfags bitching about competent engines like unity/unreal and shilling some random joke of a engine or pretending to be making one.

I've never done game development but I'm a senior C++ developer. I'm honestly wondering if being good at programming makes you a worse game developer because you hyperfixate on shit that doesn't matter. Can anyone confirm.

>>725288202
Cam confirm.
I started 4 game engines and finished none.
It's fun to dabble with tho, taught me lots of new things actually.

>>725245305 (OP)
>>725245410
>>725245560
name 5 well known games released in the last 5 years that don't use C or C++ for the engine

>>725250901
Stop watching tutorials.
Tutorials will always give you the answer, because that's what keeps engagement.
What you need is learn how to think like an engineer. Programming is merely a tool.
As long as you can understand how to use logic to solve your problems, you can easily learn how to use any language and make them do what you want them to do.

At most, you should only use tutorials when you have hit a bottleneck and needs a little push.

>>725287254
there's nothing as fast and simple as c++ with classes. i suppose we could have been making games in rust but rust's main problem is it arrived on the scene 30 years too late 'solving' problems c++ mostly already solved

>>725254774
>troonhou faggot has no idea what he's talking aboutl
like clockwork

>>725245424
Cigger

>>725288670
Balatro (Lua)
Vampire Survivors (JavaScript)
Project Zomboid (Java)
EvE Online (Python)
Stardew Valley (C#)

>>725288202
you have to translate what you want game to do vs what data transformation and procedure you write, or have a lead do it for u

>>725289229
Rust is not for games but software where security matters
In that regard cpp will never catch up because safety profiles are a shitshow

>>725288175
pseudo OOP is easier to read, intuit, understand, write and implement than actual OOP regardless of language, style or convention. I can maybe understand being better at maintaining and scaling but is it *that* much better and more important to the point people willingly recommend that absolute gobbledy gook?

>>725245305 (OP)
basically this >>725245558
c wasn't made to develop games, it was made to replace older programming languages and paradigms that were even more limited and painful to work with than it was. these days the main use case for c is writing kernel or embedded code where you want to be able to manually manage memory for optimization purposes. even programs like dolphin that are trying to create and present a lot of complex graphical shit in a very small amount of time are mostly using c++.

c is the wrong tool for developing games. manual memory management is great if you absolutely need it like e.g. if you're developing for e.g. some extremely tiny chip that manages the brake system in a car, but doing so is time-consuming and requires a lot of additional knowledge that doesn't make your game better*. you don't want or need to do that when developing a game even if you're targeting a desktop configuration from like 20 years ago. c also has a bunch of bizarre antiquated bullshit, like how it handles strings for example. this is shit you'd need to constantly be working around or reinventing when other languages just do it in a way that makes sense.

c has its place but its place is not game development.

*: b-but what if i'm a hyper-expert at memory management and manage to drive down my memory requirements 5% as a result?
optimization is important, but consider the platform you are targeting and the cost:benefit ratio of what you are doing. doing manual memory management *correctly* is going to add on many extra development hours. you don't need to manually manage memory to optimize your game well for a typical desktop platform even if you're targeting older systems.

>>725291384
linux kernel, one of the most complicated pieces of software that is used everywhere, is C
opinion discarded, go back to python

>>725291384
nigger did you just imply there is no memory management in c++?

>>725291625
it's almost like i specifically mentioned that

>>725291628
no, i was saying even dolphin doesn't primarily use c, not even dolphin doesn't do memory management

>>725291628
If you use modern C++ correctly you should rarely need manual memory management. Most everything is either an STL container or smart pointer. The next C standard is probably going to support the `defer` keywords which lets C do something similar to RAII in C++. Realistically most C features are just trimmed down C++ features these days.

>>725291384
>drive down my memory requirements
lmao memory optimization is primarily about reducing allocations and cache misses.
both of which are really fucking important when you're doing time sensitive shit

>>725290339
Yes, if only because it speeds up dev time. Deadlines and release dates ensure companies will always pick faster turn around over efficient products, just the way of the world unfortunately.

>>725291882
the more people try to sweep memory management and pointers under the rug, the more ridiculous and difficult to reason about shit they pile on

>>725292251
it truly is a shame that getting a broken product out the door first is more important than getting a reliable product out the door second

>>725245305 (OP)
Isn't C just a more efficient version of C++ but without all the features that make C++ so powerful? (like Object Orientation)

>>725292447
try forming your own opinion by using both of those languages rather than regurgitating some opinion you read on the internet

>>725273965
it's because retards believe that OOP = bad OOP. 90% of all of the professional code I've written has been a CRUD system with minimal business logic. OOP is totally fine for this.

>>725281170
>Is the HVAC pay at least good?
Nta but depends on your area. Here (Sweden) it's in high demand so the pay is good (4-6 k after tax monthly on average)

>>725292442
Just the way of the world. Arguably high speed internet is what enabled it. Its 'cheaper' to patch a game later than delay a release to fix more bugs now. 30 years ago you couldn't do that, so if it was fucked on release that was it.

>>725292516
I use C++ a lot but I don't see any reason to use C (even though they're basically the same) since C isn't used for most games.

>le code meme
i'd better learn carpentry
at least you can make something real and tangible

>>725292360
It's really not. Garbage collection works just fine for applications that aren't time critical and C++ RAII is extremely simple.

>>725292447
People really need to get over this idea that C is inherently faster than C++. If you take C code and compile it in C++ mode there's a high chance you'll get better results just due to stricter typing. C programmers also default into worse implementations because reusable library code is such a chore in C. The Linux kernel is littered with a million different kinds of linked lists just because it's the easiest data structure to make generic in C even taking macro and type erasure cope into account.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of retarded choices in the C++ standard and C is perfectly fine if you enjoy using it. But for my purposes I don't see any benefits to C over C++ for my purposes. I write language runtimes all day and all it amounts to is `extern "C"` and `-fno-exceptions -fno-rtti` to get the same effect.

>>725292517
It always baffles me when retards equate OOP with inheritance and start yapping about how bad it is and how confused they are by silly and completely impractical stuff like "class Dog inherits FourLegged inherits Mammal inherits Animal inherits LivingBeing". Despite inheritance being probably least useful and least used feature of OOP.

>>725245305 (OP)
It's labor intensive. Modern hardware is fast enough to not require the shortcuts and speed C is best known for.

C++ is still a powerhouse, and the best C++ code is the code that's written like C but with privileges.

>>725289725
its not some special thing with more security they just have a compiler that avoids most memory leaks. but the important bit is its in the same class of c and c++ performance wise while almost nothing else is (even shit like golang has its problems)

the desktop on my laptop runs on rust and you can make high performance games with it although to this point i think only small indie games have been made with it.

>>725278851
>That said, self-taught is still a bigger meme unless you're particularly gifted (you're not).
i am tho

>>725253085
>>725253803
Once you get the math behind the Carmack code, it becomes extremely elegant to read.
Yes I know it's called the Carmack code despite the fact it came from an Nvidia engineer and Carmack didn't write it

>>725248601
Coding is being cut in half, it won’t crash like 90%.

C++ can just be written functionally like C. You aren't forced into OOP with it like C#.

>>725255051
This is true for every job, but if you have the autism debuff you have to boost all your other stats to compensate.

95% of C++ is bloat
You can do anything with C and that's why especially for games they just use C++ as C with classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tas0O586t80

>>725292192
the point i'm getting at is that your average game developer looking to pick a language is going in without even understanding the scope of the problem. it takes a lot of time to understand how computers manage memory and how to do so yourself and it takes MUCH longer to learn how to do so correctly and optimally. and the benefit you get out of it generally isn't going to be that important when your use case is making a game that runs well on hardware from like 2012 or newer.

development resources are limited, especially for solo or small team developers. the important thing when making a game is to *actually finish the game*. most prospective game devs never even make it to that point, most efforts fall apart well before finishing. so pick an environment that helps you do THAT. then, if you want to optimize (and i do think it's important), you can profile your game, learn best practices for your environment, and do some work to optimize for the hardware you're targeting. i think that's going to serve the average game developer much better.

>>725274697
Because renting a shoebox costs 4k a month there.

>>725293796
>indian accent

>>725293181
lmao you have no idea what you're talking about. Rust has no memory leak prevention, it's a running meme at this point.
The entire point of Rust is being a provably memory safe systems language.

>>725293874
welcome newfriend

>>725293930
gud morning saar! do is the needful and programs in c!

>>725256836
> ive recently started learning about programming can anyone explain why object-oriented programming is bad?
It's not
Biggest downside to OOP principles is that few people ever use them right. They think you need to put everything into an object or a constructor, that's not the case. Objects are made for the express purpose of organization. You don't need objects to function or even templates or constructors.

The hot thing right now (I say now, it was the hot thing 14 years ago) is to assign everything into a memory arena of which objects of different classes occupy, and use scopes and destructors to ensure use-after-free can't happen. But you can do this in any language. You can do this C. Nothing about C++ is unique on its own.

>>725293041
>The Linux kernel is littered with a million different kinds of linked lists just because it's the easiest data structure to make generic in C
No, it's littered with linked lists because they're a good data structure in that context as they don't require a separate allocation.
Compare:
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/list.h
https://github.com/attractivechaos/klib/blob/master/kvec.h
A generic vector is very simple to implement in C.

>>725290339
Sometimes you just want to write l.push(2). Get any object and go obj.push(2). The sheer blinding convenience of writing l.push(2) vs having list_push(this, 2) that is reliable but verbosity adds up.

cut the good morning saars crap already, C and C++ are the least pajeetiffied languages because they are too hard

>>725293984
Indians don't use C, they use Python and chatGPT. Lower-caste indians use C#

>>725292360
He's right though. RAII and typed generic collections are big advantages of C++ (also, namespaces, inheritance, virtual methods, exceptions). For desktop programs, C++ is just universally better (or Rust if you're into that kind of stuff). For embedded systems, especially those with just a few KB of RAM/flash, C is okay, as you want to statically allocate as much as possible and likely won't use the bloated STL, but you'll still miss core C++ features.

>>725294212
>C#
*Java

>>725245424
code

C is used at the layers where C is needed

>>725293832
that's the point of being a fucking programmer. your entire job is understanding the hardware and the problem you have to solve.
it's like an artist not wanting to learn composition because it's complicated

>>725246101
>Binary
>Machine
>Assembly
>Basic
>C++
Yep, checks out. Perfectly follows the BMABC's

>>725294007
>The hot thing right now (I say now, it was the hot thing 14 years ago) is to assign everything into a memory arena of which objects of different classes occupy, and use scopes and destructors to ensure use-after-free can't happen. But you can do this in any language. You can do this C. Nothing about C++ is unique on its own.
What do you think zones are.. Quake and Carmack used this 30 years ago. Z_Malloc.

For multi-threading on consoles games already make heavy use of this to prevent defragmentation out of necessity Naughty Dog gave a good GDC talk about too.

>>725294119
Thanks, I read his comment too but didn't care to reply because it was so easy to dismiss. Linked lists are fast insertions and take up little space with little fragmentation, that's their benefit.

>>725293984
>doesn't know when to apply indian saar meme correctly
yawn

>>725250901
Don't listen to the retarded niggers on this board, they are reddit university no-devs. Programming is just writing code but what people, tutorials fail to mention is that it also embodies plenty of other aspects. The choice of language, IDE is the least of your worries, if you are interested in doing things truly from scratch, bottom-up then the best thing you can do is understand your low-level system programs like your OS, Compiler, Parser, data structures, etc. I'm not saying a deep-dive, but roughly skim it to see what you are dealing with also unironically AI, it should be more-than great for your basic needs.

>>725292360
I mean you're right but there are very good reasons they don't anymore. The most common vulnerability when I was still writing enterprise code was use-after-free, and it was endemic. When you started working with pointers that were not strictly scoped and weren't trapped to only being accessible in arenas, it became a countdown to however long it took for a CVE to be published with it at the forefront.

That's too much power to give regular programmers, especially dumb kids like us just leaving university and still thinking that any code that compiles is a D. It was soooo much safer to just abstract all memory management to senior programmers who then passed classes to us, and we were told to never ask where they came from.

>>725289539
>Balatro (Lua)
Love2D is C++
>Vampire Survivors (JavaScript)
I thought they moved to Unity.
>EvE Online (Python)
2003 was five years ago?

>>725295103
>Love2D is C++
But the game itself was fully in Lua. Windows is in C, does that mean every game that runs on Windows qualifies as being done in C?

>>725260995
No, it was called B because it came after A (Algol).

>>725274697
>New York City
Found your problem

>>725294620
Zones are pieces of a larger memory arena, but yeah. There's a reason the Quake engine was the gold standard for programming for many, many years. Carmack was ahead of his time. If you want to see some real "How the fuck did they get away with that?", look up the source code to the Build engine pre-kmalloc.

To quote Ken Silverman:
>Made the engine call new internal functions, kmalloc and kfree, instead of malloc or free. Unless you're a hacker and wrote your own memory manager (like N&P/Qs) you can just ignore this message.

Of course he was like 14 when he made that first revision.

>>725295375
>Windows is in C
I believe they use C++ quite a bit even in the kernel.
>But the game itself was fully in Lua.
The engine (the thing being talked about) is not.

>>725294594
the job of a game developer is to produce a good game. you are mixing up the means with the end. "understanding the hardware" doesn't need to be done at such an extreme level as you're suggesting in order to create a good product; MOST good games don't go as far as that.

in an ideal world with infinite time and resources, you'd be 100% right. the problem is that we don't live that world. time and money (and willpower) are finite, continually depleting resources. this is one of the biggest problems that people underestimate. every moment you aren't making money off your game you are losing money to overhead costs and losing time off your life in which to actually complete your goal.

again, i do think optimization is important. a lot of developers don't bother with it and it shows with games that run like shit. that's a bad experience. but you DO need to strike a balance. if you chase perfection, you'll never get there; you'll run out of time or money or give up because the scope of what you're trying to achieve is too daunting.

>>725295609
ken silverman was a gigachad, it's just too bad he sold it to george broussard to make like three games with it and then never fund build 2 with the infinite money they had instead of jumping between 12 different engines from 96 up to 2010

>>725296202
this is true, most games we play now are vibe coded with AI and jeets, thats' why everything plays the same and runs like shit despite being on 1000x more powerful hardware than similar looking games from years ago; it has the same developers behind the scenes with all of the idea guys swapped. And it doesn't help that our idea guys suck ass

>>725274697
>New York City subway janitor makes 120k/year
I've seen pictures and videos of that place. 120k is not enough.

>>725296202
you're as much of a game developer as an audio engineer is a music developer.
you're a programmer and as a game programmer you have the unfortunate task of writing software that is highly time sensitive. you can't escape this reality no matter how many excuses you make.
thus you have no choice but to suck it up and learn the hardware and tools

>>725296469
this

>>725245305 (OP)
>just procedural shit. you don't have half the shit you need. no inheritance, no anything
>dealing with manual memory management is inviting the devil
>cstrings suck dick
>mixing in more languages is a terrible idea unless needed
>>725245424
Cex

>>725297260
>you're a programmer and as a game programmer you have the unfortunate task of writing software that is highly time sensitive.
What if I'm making retro pixelslop? What if the engine is already done like >>725295103? It doesn't need to be time-sensitive. But those are still games and games are being developed. You're making a lot of assumptions.

>>725246101
A computer can't read any of it. it's text

>>725297667
Then please go ahead and shit up the market with more underperformant UE5 slop.

>>725254751
>headers/templates
Blah blah blah I just hear a retarded defense of an objectively terrible system.

>>725297889
Sure when your alternative is to outlaw games, you basically want games to stop being made at all. even balatro or whatever(didn't play that). from a certain perspective ue5 isn't that bad.
An aspiring creator and artist wants to make something "nope you don't have a phd in assembly. this isn't gonna live up to Tycoon Rollercoaster. therefore...you can't make a game AT ALL. YOU'RE UNDER ARREST FOR DOING IT" *shoots dev with a gun*. This is what you want to tell devs.

C was supplanted by C++ in this space, with honourable mention to C#
The only people programming games in C are people who are already "C programmers"
There's a minor movement to write C++ code in a C-like way, "C with classes" or whatever
I have no experience in it myself, but I have never met or spoken to a single C++ programmer who actually liked the language, whereas C# seems to have improved a lot (by stealing functional features from F# lol)
For anybody who is not a C programmer, but who wants to be, I would recommend Odin, it's basically C with lessons learned, a fun language to tinker in

>>725299195
>I have no experience in it myself
>I would recommend
kys

>>725298894
If you're not proficient in something then you should work with someone that is. Just like how you comission music and art.
One man projects are for fucking around and prodigies.

>>725299395
tranime

Because it was replaced with C++
Why was this not the first reply?

>>725300296
anime website and ironically in this case real trannies would probably have more experience

>>725294594
>your entire job is understanding the hardware
No programmer understands the hardware

>>725300296
tourist

>>725298157
>system that lets you perfectly parallelize compilation is retarded
retard police, open up

>>725248601
Ai ironically took CS jobs

>>725299195
this'll make me sound transgender but I highly recommend anyone who wants to use C at this point take the plunge and learn Rust. It's the wave of the future, for better or worse.

>>725301350
Rust is an overengineered pos for people in love with complexity

>>725301315
saaar ai the future saaaar
>introduces shitloads of bugs
>can't vibe code to fix them
>suggest coding sweatshop owned by uncle to 'service' the code by rebuilding the whole stack, also vibe-coded, also impossible to manage, will also have to be rebuilt by an uncle's uncle.
saaar redeem saaar

>>725301350
>>725301417 this they also had the power of hindsight yet they still fucked it up

>>725300296
commit sudoku