Thread 1997803

PvP players kill immersion.
MMOs are all about immersion and feeling like you're part of a living world.
PvP could help with that in theory, but the typical PvP player is competitive, they don't care about immersion.
These people love to exploit bugs, read/watch guides for the best class/builds, make suggestions to the devs that only suit their playstyle, beg the devs to not nerf the OP stuff they're accustomed to using, and are basically total metaslaves that suck the fun out of the game. The game world no longer feels diverse and immersive, you keep seeing the same classes/weapons/armor used because people want to "win".

But removing PvP doesn't work either because it kills immersion too (a world without murder isn't realistic), so I guess this explains why the genre is shit.
MMO with PvP: the players ruin the game
MMO without PVP: the game is shit to begin with

>>1997803 (OP)
>These people love to exploit bugs, read/watch guides for the best class/builds, make suggestions to the devs that only suit their playstyle, beg the devs to not nerf the OP stuff they're accustomed to using, and are basically total metaslaves that suck the fun out of the game
if I didn't know better I'd think you were describing people who play path of exile, a mostly solo arpg, because it is almost 100% spot on. it has nothing to do specifically with pvp or mmos. it's just the attitude of 'competitive' fags even in pve environments like raids.

>>1998161
Yeah it happens in a lot of other single player RPGs as well. I see it in Morrowind, VtMB, Deus Ex, where people talk about how to become as strong as possible and say anything less powerful is useless even if it can still be fun. But I guess part of the issue is games can become overly difficult if you don't pick the right build sometimes too.

Ultima Online kind of had this issue where they thought PvP would be done in the aspect of roleplaying instead of constantly just trying to kill as many people as you possibly could all the time. And they ended up just completely separating PvP and PvM and the game got more popular at least until the later shitty expansions.

In my experience MMOs are also more fun before end game too, then PvP isn't as much of an issue because nobody is really excessively powerful. The max level top tier equipment shit is just a grind to keep people playing and spending money but at least in some MMOs I had more fun when they were new and people were just mid level with crappy gear. In Diablo 2 as well low level PvP seemed more fun than high level with people just constantly teleporting around one shotting each other.

Not pvp players, but all meta-minded fuckers are killing all the fun everywhere. Even if it is the most unserious shit ever, if there is some sort of rating board, they will come and ruin everything. I do not know the solution to this.

>>1997803 (OP)
>PvP players kill immersion.
lmao, already wrong.
Pvp, especially open pvp, is the most important aspect of immersion in MMOs. The lack of it is what kills it.
Imagine you are in a fantasy or scifi world, and you can run around, call everyones mother a whore, steal loot ( if possible ) and ruin the game by constantly shittalking.
In a real fantasy world that guy would be fried within seconds. Why would you tolerate this if you could kill him?

The most immersive mmos Ive ever played were simple shitty browsergame MMOs like Dark Orbt or Parsec, where pve was just grinding npcs for exp, the real game was shooting players. I still remember how exciting it was just traveling on these stupid 2d maps with their photoshopped backgrounds. Getting behind enemy lines was thrilling bc you had to actually sneak behind or defeat real people to get there. And you knew they would soon return with reinforcements bc it was their turf and they dont want you there. Yes, real people with real reactions. Not mindless NPCs standing there 20meters away not noticing you in front of them. It was real. People were fighting for real space.

I cant think of any reason on why one would think different other than you were bad at it and didnt get far at all. In which case its even more immersive. Everything "modern" MMOs try to simulate is a mocking of what MMOs 20 years ago had. A modern co-op """MMO""" where you meet to defeat a timed event boss or farm a dungeon with meta builds is not an immersive MMO.

>>2003071
I don't think you really understood what OP was saying. OP says PvP is necessary and makes games better, but a lot of PvPers are shit and make the game worse because they aren't really interested in fun, that they're okay with things being unbalanced as long as it means they win. The kind of people who probably have a complete meltdown if they lose.

>>2003111
youre right. Im so used to people telling me pvp is bad and should be removed bc nobody supposedly plays it that I only saw it that way.
The devs are often not players themselves, and if some are they are heavily biased, like in gw2. You will sadly not see the devs even trying to balance in the sense of making the meta more flat.

>>2003372
>The devs are often not players themselves, and if some are they are heavily biased
I've experienced both of those things lately and they're equally frustrating.

>>1997803 (OP)
no retard.
PvP in MMOs is trash because it always results in uneven fights and zerging.
battlegrounds and arenas are good, but open world and territory control and massive fights where the classes with ground target AOEs will control the game are dogshit.

>>2008096
That, and there's often little way to actually play defensively or have tools to run away. When you get ganked, you're committed to a disadvantaged fight with no real avenue to escape. Not because they're playing well and catching you, countering your attempts to flee, but instead because the game's systems just fundamentally don't let you do it.

>>2008096
spoken like someone who tried to wvw on a low pop world pre-megaserver and got roflstomped

>>2008096
>uneven fights and zerging
That's what makes these games good dude

The biggest problem with uneven fights is that devs go full retard with the power creep, rewarding months of boring PvE that gives max level/geared players too big an advantage. If the strongest player was only like twice as strong as the average player (just random example) it wouldn't be bad.

And the zerging you guys always complain about is exactly what makes these games good, and even HELPS new players get into the game: since there is no cap on team sizes, new players are encouraged to join in the fights as any extra body helps their side, even if they're not optimal.

>massive fights where the classes with ground target AOEs will control the game
Some classes are better for 1v1, others are better in small group fights and others are better in big group fights, that's what makes the classes unique and the game interesting. An assassin-type character who dominates 1v1 shouldn't be complaining he is bad at big battles (but he should still join them anyways, remember that any +1 person helps), same way a mage with AoE shouldn't complain when he's attacked alone in a 1v1.

(note that maybe the above doesn't work in full loot games, but I never played those so can't comment)

>>2009877
>>2009878
>3 rogues stunlock you from stealth and drop you in half a second while you're gathering rocks
>3 mages drop meteors on you while you're picking flowers
>16 peruvians run up on you while you're chopping trees
heh, nothing personnel, kidd. just based high skill world pvp here, get filtered.
>30 mages drop blizzard on the chokepoint
I HECKIN' LOVE THESE EPIC MASSIVE BATTLES!

I bet you faggots don't play albion either.

Gi gi gi gi babby babby

>>1997803 (OP)
>muh immersion
other than that, there's no consequence for dying