ITT: Moves that are good in concept but rarely see use

>>57980215 (OP)
depends on you predicting when your opponent will use an exact particular move thats why it sucks. Sucker Punch is just if your opponent uses one of the hundreds of damaging moves not just one move.

>>57980224
Looking at feint more, it initially was base 50, but they dropped it to 30 in gen 5 for some reason. I have no clue why this mood needs such a low base power

>>57980215 (OP)
If Feint still worked no matter what, but had double power when the opponent uses Protect, it would be way better

>>57980229
Feint could be so good.
Protect as of now functions almost by the user making the turn a non-turn for each side, (I'm ignoring doubles and passive effects for simplicity). You use your turn to deny your opponent a turn
Feint almost completely reverses this outcome, now the protect user is down a turn and you got to do damage.
I can't think of many moves with dynamics like this off the top of my head

>>57980215 (OP)
My brother used Feint on his Technician Scyther back in the PBR days to much hilarity, as he always predicted it.

>>57980228
Because gen 5 was when they changed Feint to never fail, if it stayed at 50 it would just be a super buff Quick Attack

>>57980215 (OP)
People always talk about Sucker Punch not being a punch due to translation but nobody mentions Feint and Feint Attack being to entirely different moves with synonymus names because of translation.

>>57981220
30 BP is nothing

>>57980215 (OP)
Snatch seems great in concept but I never really got round to using it effectively

Also Recycle

>>57980215 (OP)
Zap Cannon and all of its clones.

Cool idea for a high risk, high reward move, but the accuracy is too low to be usable. Not sure how I'd buff it.

>>57980215 (OP)
why use superpower when every damn fighting type gets close combat

>>57982073
I think it's better if you have contrary

>>57982073
Close Combat had really limited distribution until one of the nu gens went full retard.

>>57980215 (OP)
Feint gets some use there and there in restrict VGC formats, but it's ultimately too risky and requires you to give up in a moveslot in a format where you already need to give up a moveslot for protect 90% of the time

No clue why Gen V nerfed it from 50 to 30bp, personally I think it should do 80bp if used against a pokémon that didn't protect, and 30bp if it protected (I know that thematically it should hit harder if you catch the pokémon trying to protect, but breaking protect is already huge on its own and you're probably going to KO either way if you tried a move like that)

>>57982046
You're saying the high risk isn't worth the high reward, but you like the concept of high risk, high reward.
Well then to buff it I'd increase the reward to be more worth the risk. 20 additional BP? 30?
Alternatively you could lower the risk, but then it becomes a less a high-risk concept move

>>57980215 (OP)

>>57982234
there are so many moves and abilities that could only ever make sense in singleplayer doubles, they should honestly just make a game like that

>>57980260
I believe moves like Shadow Force and Hyper Drill can ignore Protect. There should be one for doubles that completely removes the foe’s Protect so the partner can also hit them.

>>57982254
phantom force it's basically the same as saying "your opponent can't use protect" since it's a telegraphed hit. hyper drill is a very silly move that should never ever ever be given to more than one pokemon

>>57980215 (OP)
Brick Break because it got powercrept hard. It used to be the most "whatever" move to slot in for Fighting coverage since so many things got it

>>57980229
This. Though I would take it a step further. Return it to 50 damage AND make it a Fighting type move instead of Normal.

>>57982046
>Not sure how I'd buff it.
No Guard
>b-but it leans Guillotine!
remember what happened to Machamp?

>>57982285
that's just boring in practice, since now it's literally just a strong electric move. there's nothing more to it. honestly, i think it's fine as is, it's meant to be part of a two-turn combo with lock-on, if people don't want to spend an extra move slot for an electric Solar Beam, that's ok

>>57982247
Never made sense to my why Pokémon promotes 1v1 in single-player but 2v2 in competitive. If you want to ease access to multi-player, why not make much more extensive use of it in storymode? Sure, start kids off with the simplest format. But then around mid-game introduce doubles and make it the default for non-wild encounters.

>>57982247
Colosseum / XD sequel when

>>57980215 (OP)
Feint is actually pretty good and appears every once in VGC but most users are dogshit and/or not worth the tradeoff.

One of the best comp mons' ability is essentially "everything is feint"

>>57982235
This and Powder. Fun moves that just don't work on the mons they were given to. Vivi in particular has a win condition Quiver Dance, zero reason to go for any gimmicks.

>>57982046
you're thinking of it like a 50% accurate damaging move
think of it as a 50% accurate thunder wave that happens to also deal massive damage
it's still not optimal, but it's got utility

>>57983082
50% chance of 120 BP has an expected damage of 60, which makes is a stronger but more annoying nuzzle

>>57982117
God, turning Close Combat into a TM was so stupid

>>57982327
Gamefreak really power crept a ton of things for vgc huh? It’s actually crazy

>>57983087
eh
nuzzle into thunderbolt is 110BP or average 55, but without any of zap cannon's RNG variance.
shit's just not good.

>>57983109
zap cannon is annoying to use and annoying to have used against you, the rng is unpleasant for everyone
>fml it missed
>fml I can't believe it hit

>>57982254
>There should be one for doubles that completely removes the foe’s Protect so the partner can also hit them.
Feint already does that.

>>57982046
The best you could do is have some consolation effect if you do miss, what that is is up to you

>>57980215 (OP)
I fucking love fell stinger so much. During gen 6 I loved running mega beedrill as my sweeper in OU and UU because of it, setting up a kill or faking them out with u turn was fun as fuck.
>>57982046
One idea I always had is to have the move's accuracy boost the lower the user's health is. This way it becomes difficult to create situations where the user can just spam the fuck out of it while also adding further strategy to how you manage the user's health.

What if Zap Cannon also had increased priority

>>57980215 (OP)
Water Sport + Mud Sport need an ability which sets them on entry. Give Water Sport to the Steel-type elephants, they'd love it.

>>57983374
Ground types having mud sport always felt so goofy to me, I get it but in wild battles it was always essentially splash

>>57983374
I think you could alternatively make these a secondary effect for some moves, rather than an ability. Like Soak, Water Gun, Hydro Pump, etc.

>>57982046
>and all its clones
Which are what? Dynamic punch and inferno? I thought there were more but I haven't been able to find any

I would do the following
>all 3 have 120 BP (weird that they would buff zap cannon only)
>they never miss if the target is already suffering the associated status condition
So a twave + zap cannon set or a wisp + inferno set can work. Dynamic punch is a little different in that none of the pokemon that would use it would run confuse ray (even if they had access to it) and confusion wears off unlike paralysis and burn.

>>57982327
>One of the best comp mons' ability is essentially "everything is feint"
Yeah feint could be cool and could add another interesting layer to vgc since it seems like a lot of shit runs protect. But why use feint when Urshifu exists? I like how Urshi looks, but game devs, unironically, what were you thinking?

>>57982032
Recycle was very good in Alola, muk had pseudo recover thanks to it and the nature berries

>>57983751
The solution to urshifu is to give every type their own hyper drill.

If everyone has an option to ignore protect them urshifu is taken down a peg.

>>57983807
the problem is that there isn't any berry that's good enough for recycle to be worth it

>>57983811
Make all multi-turn moves (Fly, Dig, Dive) function like Shadow Force in ignoring protect, just say part of it is they attack from an unexpected angle bypassing defenses. Either that or the auto-hit moves so they can have some sort of use.

>>57980215 (OP)
The problem with Feint is no good Pokemon get it or the few that do have Four Move Slot Syndrome. It's pretty much just Meinshao, Hitmontop, Electabuzz, and the rare Maushold.

>>57982314
Blueberry Academy was all doubles for trainer battles and singles for wild. While the best solution would be to make Singles/Doubles an option like Set/Switch, just copying Blueberry in future games would be fine too.

>>57982046
If it was 150 then I would use it.

>>57982235
This move needed priority to be usefull.
Overall Pokemon needs more moves that go faster if opponent uses specific type of moves.

>>57983374
make this an added effect of damp

>>57983373
Just make Soaked user draw in electric moves.

>>57983626
Indeed. We need more moves like that.
I suggested many times that many old moves need a fun reworks like that, so even weak moves can be important in gameplay
>Wrap is also slowing opponent every turn
>Poison Stig has 40% to poison
>Swift using your higest attack stat
>Spite ALWAYS take 3PP of the move
>Incinerate works on ALL items

STockpile system needs to be reworked as it sucks so much.

>>57983848
I love this.

>>57980229
wtf it was NERFED?!?! it used to have 50 power. why????

>>57984361
oh it used to ONLY work if they used protect/detect. ok that makes a little more sense.

>>57981220
>super buff Quick Attack
Only Normal types can get away with using Quick Attack. There's a reason Extreme Speed exists at all

>>57982046
You buff them by making a Pokemon that sets Gravity through an ability.
You get a x1.67 accuracy buff in Gravity, which makes those moves 83% accuracate.
It’d be a great indirect buff and it wouldn’t be overpowered due to limited turns of Geavity and your opponent getting the benefits of Gravity too.

>>57983988
I'd give all the Hyper Beam clones a setup effect in the vein of Max Moves (e.g. Frenzy Plant sets Grassy Terrain), on top of maybe using your highest offensive stat.
For Hyper Beam + Giga Impact, they destroy terrain + screens instead.

>>57983988
>STockpile system needs to be reworked as it sucks so much.

My best attempt involves introducing a system of "EX Moves" which appear in a separate menu (same as Z-Moves) and instead of having their own PP consume 1 PP from all four of your standard moves. If you have less than four moves available (e.g. run out of PP, Disabled, Choice itemed), the EX Move fails.

Usually EX moves are granted by an ability or held item, but they can be granted by other moves as well, mostly HMs. Knowing Stockpile grants you both EX Swallow + EX Spit Up.

>>57980260
>You use your turn to deny your opponent a turn
to be fair if you predict the protect you get a free turn of hazards, SD, nasty plot, etc setup

>>57983848
That would be sweet, I wish there were also an effect to grappling or throwing moves to ignore protect too, at least as a nod to fighting games that grabs break to guard.

>>57983813
Because they nerfed them, they used to recover 50% Wich made muk and araquanid too strong apparently.

>>57985382
You're not wrong, I was just boiling it down a bit to make a point

>>57982234
I liked Rototiller a lot. We should have more moves that give various types synergy with each-other. Grass has long had pretty good synergy with Fire, but it makes sense that Ground could have some synergy too.
I also liked Steamroller. Maybe instead of deleting it Gamefreak could have made Steamroller and Rototiller get rid of all terrains

>>57982046
>Not sure how I'd buff it.
It has 100% accuracy when used against a Water or Steel type. Otherwise 50% accuracy. Or combine it with Lock-on where the first time the move is used it "locks on" to the target but afterwards it does Zap Cannon. Power Herb also works on it

>>57982235
>tarred mon , if Burned now gets afflicted with Dire-Burning

>>57980215 (OP)
any and all of the one-hit-KO moves seem really fucking bad. 30% chacne to hit but only if your pokeman is a higher level... which means you most likely have a regular move that can one-shot them because you have the level advantage.
at least for something like perish song you can force them to sac a mon or force a switch out if they've done set-up on that mon, but what use case are the one hit KO moves?

Ember

>>57986618
Allow accuracy and evasion stages to work on them, lower the target's evasion if they fail?

>>57980215 (OP)
Me First was really cool move in concept, but it needed just too much prediction and really was useful on really fast Pokemon.
Sadly Gamefreak hates gimmick, niche moves now and deleted it to give us another 100+ BP bullshit nuke.

>>57980215 (OP)
I'd like the OHKO moves to have the MegaTen approach where they only have a small chance to be OHKO against what is weak to it, otherwise just deals heavy damage instead of being stupidly low accuracy moves. Horn Drill would need to become Steel-type and Guillotine Ghost to compensate for this

>>57987633
Guillotine should be bug-type. It's mostly associated with Pokemon like Pinsir.

>>57986618
>any and all of the one-hit-KO moves seem really fucking bad. 30% chacne to hit but only if your pokeman is a higher level

That's not how they work. It's 30% chance of success if you are the same level as your opponent, and for every level higher than your opponent, you add 1% to it's accuracy. So if you have a level 50 pokemon and your opponent is level 20, your OHKO move will be 60% accurate.

I sort of wish body slam had a niche in modern pokemon. 85Bp with a chance paralyze? sure.

also stomping tantrum outside stuff like fissure memery

>>57987700
The problem with stomping tantrum is really just that it does nothing to fix the the most obvious reason your last move failed: they switched in a flying type on you. If you made it rock type it would an insane move

>>57987694
and if you're level 50 while your opponent is level 20, using your stab will have a 100% chance to oneshot them.

Frustration makes sense in concept, but why would anyone ever use it over return?

>>57988764
main reason to use it is to mess with imposter ditto since it doesn't copy happiness. if you're running frustration, 99 times out of 100 the ditto won't be 0 happiness so it'll be stuck with a 1 base power move and you can play around it easily.
this was especially important in the past for pokemon like mega salamence or mega lopunny who would be running it for heir main stab. ditto comes in on your +2 frustration/earthquake megamence and threatens a reverse sweep? nah just switch to any flying type and it can't do shit with that 1 base power frustration.

>>57980260
>I'm ignoring doubles
Why are you ignoring the game, what do you think protect is for?

>>57980215 (OP)
I've always loved using Lava Plume, but I almost never see it because the pool of Pokémon that can learn it has always been surprisingly small, and most of the Pokémon that can learn it are either mediocre or have better options via TM or after a dozen levels. It just feels like it's almost never worth going out of your way for when so many other fire-type moves exist. The only time I've seen it used more than once was in gen 9.

>>57989310
>Lava Plume
>Bad
have you somehow never encountered a Heatran?

>>57987624
Just give me first +1 priority, having to outspeed your opponent really makes this move completely useless.

>>57989354
that would make it broken

>>57989343
>Look up Heatran
>Apparently has seen some competitive success recently
>Still relies on Magma Storm
Regardless, even if it does use it fairly frequently (I don't keep up with competitive anymore), you still never see anyone use it outside legendaries and people that picked Cyndaquil in HGSS.

>>57986351
wtf this could have been a good bug type waterfall clone

>>57983108
>>57983751
Gen 8 was a mistake.

legendary signature moves before gen 8:
>100 bp move, sometimes with 95 accuracy, no secondary effect
>120/130 bp move with 85 accuracy
>140/150 bp move with 90 accuracy AND charge or recharge turn
>120 bp move that drops defenses

legendary signature moves in gen 8:
>100 bp move, no drawbacks, doubles against the gen's gimmick
>120 bp spread move, no drawbacks, on a pokémon that boosts after every OHKO
>75 bp move, always critical (effectively 112.5), no drawbacks, on a pokémon that bypasses protect

>>57983848
>multi-turn moves
They suck because they give your opponent time to switch for a pokémon that resist or ignore them, this won't do.
>oh no they used Dig against me and I can't protect! here, have a Flying-type

The real fix to Urshifu without removing its spirit is reduced damage through protect, like Z-moves

>>57990128
Samefag. Forgot to add:
Make Urshifu actually trigger the secondary effect from Protect clones: burn when hitting through Burning Bulwark, recoil when hitting through Spiky Shield etc. Considering the amount of people who run Urshifu with sash, Spiky Shield recoil can be actually great at limiting it.

Not only legendary signature moves used to be limited or have drawbacks, most legendaries themselves were relatively slow or had unoptimal stat distributions. Now you have the funny 120 spread button on a minmaxed freak with 165 special attack and 150 speed.

>>57986366
>Or combine it with Lock-on
ah, gen 3 magneton/gen 4 magnezone first strategy (second is rain dance/thunder but that one can be used by a lot more mons)

>>57990150
Protect overall should work as stop, not as attack never happens.

I also still dont understand why Starter moves still have a recharge.