>Big badass poison/ground Dinosaur
>Most powerful poison move it learns is poison sting and it can't even learn dig

What were they thinking?

>>57987186 (OP)
It gets earthquake. And the strongest poison move in gen 1 was Sludge, which had 65 bp. It should get that, I agree, but most people would probably still run Tbolt/Ice Beam/Fire Blast I imagine.

>>57987186 (OP)
>What were they thinking?
How to make edgelords like you seethe hard

>>57987196

>Base special stat of 75

Good luck

>>57987186 (OP)
just wait till people learn that dewgong didnt learn a water move by level up until gen 4

>>57987186 (OP)
This is why you play gen 4 or 5, because it has an actual movepool. Poison Jab from nidorino, Thrash, Mega Horn, Bulldoze via TM in gen 5.

>>57987203

Still wondering why they bothered with any other water/ice types when they gave you a lapras for free

Also why was Cloyster an ice type? There's nothing Icy about it really should have been pure water

>>57987203

The sad thing is Dewgong was a strong bulky tank in Gen1 due to it having 95 special along with 90 hp and defensive

They really neutered it and made it just an inferior Lapras with the special split reducing it's special attack to just 70

>>57987202
Not that bad in Gen 1

>>57987215
gen 1 and 2 were so fucking poorly balanced its amazing that the games continued to sell off mosnter design alone
>400 bst parasect, evolves later than all other bugs and has worse stats/movepool
>golduck isn't psychic
>rapidash having no fire moves
>all of the normal/flying types
>TWO ROCK MOVES TOTAL
>ONE GHOST MOVE
>>57987219
after the split too they decided to try and make it bulky physical attacker, with moves like drill run and aqua tail
the worst part? seaking has higher attack and gets access to ALL of the same physical moves and more

>>57987224

Funny thing about Parasect is due to crits being based on speed it's one of the best swords dancers in gen1 due to it being super slow

Scyther suffers due to it's high speed making it get crits almost every hit making swords dance useless as crits dont apply stat boosts

>>57987230
>gets hit by ember
>dies

>>57987224
>gen 1 and 2 were so fucking poorly balanced its amazing that the games continued to sell off mosnter design alone
And considering how off-model and dogshit the sprites were even that's a surprise. Pokemon is only around today because of marketing by Nintendo. The OG games were steaming hot dogshit.

>>57987236

>"The OG games were steaming hot dogshit"

Only by today's standards. Yes, TODAY they are pretty shit. Back when they came out they were pretty Revolutionary

balance is largely irrelevant when it comes to how interesting a game is

>>57987186 (OP)
Isn't poison near-useless offensively in Gen 1 anyway? It's only super effective against grass and most grass types are dual type poisons.

Back in the day some mons had types purely for defense or lore, not offense

i think game balance would be more interesting if offensive and defensive typings differed a little more
that would require restraint which is tough for such a long running franchise though. see: every fucking thing having close combat now

>shitting on fucking gen 1 nidoking's movepool

>>57987203
It never needed one. You always got it post-Surf.

>>57987186 (OP)
>"This will sell toys based on looks alone, don't bother putting any effort in"

>>57987411
i think it's more accurate to say that pretty much everything in gen 1 was purely lore-based, it's not really intended to be balanced. it was very much a single player rpg with link cables as an innovation, not a pvp game with a vestigial rpg mode

>>57987224
Gen 1 succeeded because it had built in cheat codes via the missing no. Glitch and no cap on ev values.

One of the funnest things about that was that if your friends used the infinite rare candy exploit to level their mons to 100 but you did it the natural way your mons would have way higher stats and end up curb stomping them.

>>57987186 (OP)
He can solo the entire game with trash alone and some TMs you bought in the store, you can also start using him before misty and he's immune to poison and electric and looks cool af, absolute mvp

>>57987409
>It's only super effective against grass
Grass and Bug

>>57987232
>tanks the hit due to the badge boost glitch boosting your special
get spored idiot

>>57987912
>use swords dance for the badge boost glitch
>die from 2 embers

>>57987924
it also boosts your speed but either way spore is 100% accurate barring a gen 1 miss and (you) can't move after waking up, which can last up to seven turns btw

>>57987186 (OP)
I always look up learnsets before catching a mon to ensure they have easily accessible dual 100 power STAB moves with at least 100 base in the relevant attack stat(s). That way I avoid using literally unusable trash like this, the famously terrible nidoking.

>>57987200
freakin thisarino pokemon is fluffy funtime affirming goodness

>Gen 1 and 2 are such bad games! How did they ever play games like this?

says the zoomer who has never played any other games from that era

>>57987670
exactly. That's why Onix is the way it is. It's meant as an early game boss monster, so it's balanced so you can beat it at an early game gym

>>57988288
type matchups are so fucking goofy from this, half are pure intuition and half are shit like "the head of the E4 needs to feel tough, so we'll give him a cool-ass sounding type that exclusively resists the starters"

>>57988317
Yes! Exactly! And Dragon doesn't have any real moves because it's specifically meant as a defensive boss type for you to fight against, not a competitive mechanic.

That logic is also why people bounce off of Gen 2 so hard. Psychic in Gen 1 is supposed to be the super powerful type, with the only counter to it being the rare and limited Ghost type that's balanced with the weak and often evil Poison type. Then in Gen 2, we get the most powerful defensive type and a counter type to Psychic with a whole immunity, so they limit its distribution. Same as Misdreavus; it's the hot new Ghost type without Poison attached so it's also limited in distribution. And all the new Pokemon lorewise are "newly discovered" so many of them have new ways to catch them.

New Pokemon games post-Gen 3 aren't designed as single player RPGs so they aren't like this, and most younger fans have never played another RPG so they don't understand game mechanics. Now it's arguable whether Gen 1 and 2's design decisions worked but it's clear what they were going for. It frustrates me to no end seeing dummies look at these games and drool and go "durrrrrr why i can't get a dark type starter??"

>>57988335
Given that it's been over twenty years since Gen 3 - by your own admission, the point where they stopped designing it first and foremost as a traditional RPG - why shouldn't there be a Dark starter? Or hell, why shouldn't there be a more extensive rebalancing to better reflect what the game actually is, instead of what it was trying to be last century? It seems that the only answer is inertia, the fact that it should have been done an embarrassingly long time ago. Would it even be possible to fully divest the franchise from its "early-instalment weirdness" at this point?

>>57988354
I said people get mad they don't have a Dark starter in Gen 2 and you say "WELL WHY CAN'T IT?! ITS BEEN 20 YEARS!" Because thats not how time works you dumb fuck they can't make Feraligatr a Dark type in Gen 2 retroactively.

I don't give a fuck what they do in the new games. Not my problem.

>>57988335
Yeah Gen 3 is probably the most distinct shift in the series. I don't begrudge the comp side of the fanbase their games, they probably kept the series alive, but I really would be much happier if GF would maintain a side series that was just focused on the single-player rpg aspect. Something like a metroid vs metroid prime thing

>>57988354
It would be tough, Masuda's fear of being "the man who killed pokemon" really caused him to copy a bunch of surface level elements until they metastasized fully. I guess we'll see what happens as his influence slowly wanes

>>57988335
It is very important to note that gen 2 was meant to be a sequel, and not a full standalone reboot like every gen afterward. There was no concept of a generation back then, it was just Pokemon 2.

>>57988354
The interesting thing about Pokemon and inertia is that so many things were considered unchangeable just because of weird old things, and we always thought it was because of issues with keeping the games compatible. But all that went out the window with the Dex cut so now when they don't change stuff it's weirder. Moves and evolution methods can change on a dime nowadays because they add and remove mechanics freely. One of the best changes was changing a few evos to Stone evos from stupid gimmick ones, but they don't do that consistently.

>>57988366
the first major design shift is Gen 3, which made the model for the modern Pokemon generation, with everything being sort of encapsulated into single generation rather than growing from the last one. It made gens into something that was meant to be consumed and replaced, rather than a world that evolved. I'm not saying that to insult Gen 3; that's just the way it is. Then the second shift was Gen 5, which was the first move towards making Pokemon disposable (a whole new dex.) It also made the move towards more story driven, cutscene heavy games. Again, that's not to disparage Gen 5, it's just how Gen 5 changed the series. And then Gen 7 gives us the dex cut and the permanent severing of the idea of a pure continuity between games. Pokemon can be removed and retired at will and rosters are limited. Nothing is certain to come back gen to gen.

>>57987929
>boosts from... 30 base speed
>dies from 1-2 embers

>>57988392
absolutely! I'm glad some people here get it. People get so riled up about "why doesn't it have x/y/z marker of a post-Gen 3 Pokemon gen?!" and it's like "because that stuff didn't even exist!" There was no expectation that you'd have a whole roster of new Pokemon. And logically, if you didn't already know how Pokemon worked, would you say "all these popular marketable monster characters? Let's replace all of them with new ones and start over!" You'd look like a retard.

>>57988392
>>57988402
The obvious samefagging goes hard.

>>57988400
anon just admit you don't know how the badge boost glitch works already, you're fookin ded mate.

>>57988409
>samefagging is when I see a conversation
are you retarded

>>57988393
I've always felt like Gen 5 was just expanding the story model that Gen 3 had started. Narratively, it's not especially different from the whole magma/aqua thing, it's just using their new software tools to present it in a form that follows naturally

this and the frlg thread feel like one supreme autist replying to himself with text walls (chatgpt slop)

>>57988409
>everyone i disagree with is one person
Based retard

>>57988410
>i don't know how percentages work
>dies from 1-2 embers

>>57988416
you are just spewing shit now. Get out of this thread you fucking zoomer ape. Slapping your fucking bitchtits around and shitting yourself because people actually know what game design is unlike your mutt generation.

>>57987186 (OP)
>gen 1 mon thread
>gschizo turns it into seething about zoomers and gen 2 and muh sequel
wow so unpredictable

>>57988417
no anon see everyone I disagree with is AI!

>big
Yeah, if you're a dwarf.

>>57988424
Remember when you got m*ttnova censored lol

>>57988392
Yeah, if I had total power, gen 3 wouldn't even have had the gym/e4 structure. That was pretty fully wrapped up with gsc, they've demonstrated pretty clearly that they don't have much in the way of ideas for how to innovate on that beyond what came in the beginning

>>57988431
Unironically get help. You need meds or at least somebody to talk you out of these delusions

>>57987186 (OP)
>What were they thinking?
They weren't thinking that the series was going to become a franchise with an autistic competitive scene that hyper optimizes everything, the game is a JRPG bro

>>57988432
Gen 2 had all the power to not do the gym and E4 structure but did it anyway. They could've changed things up with a supposed sequel, but didn't. Why is anything coming afterwards getting shit for it?

>>57988439
well u see
16 badges is more than 8 badges so it's very innovative and revolutionary
all hail tajiri for his visionary genius!

>>57988439
Why would they change things for the sequel that was meant to be more of the first? If any gen had any right to keep things the same it's Gen 2. You're just autisitically lashing out

>>57988439
Because it's a direct sequel. If you think of it in Final Fantasy terms, it's like the difference between FFX-2 and FFXI. It's not some massive detriment to the series that it stuck with a rigid formula, I just think it had the ability to have much greater variation and it's unfortunate that it forfeited that

>>57988448
There was obvious space to do gyms for the remaining types that hadn't had one, and it did that. Every game since has also then basically just done "here's a batch of mono-type gyms" which is fine, there's just nothing new to it ever

>>57988451
>>57988455
Unironically they could've done something like gen 7 instead of copy pasting 8 gym leaders
It's just boring

>>57987186 (OP)
peak kaijumon

>>57988468
Even with gen 7 masuda chickened out on creating a truly different structure. I think he obviously has the creative talent to make interesting games, but completely lacks the self-confidence to take the risks he would need to

>>57988468
It's boring if you look back on it after a couple of decades sure. But if you'd been there at the time people wanted more of Gen 1 and Gen 2 is exactly that.

>>57988478
>if you'd been there
Oh this argument again. Citation needed and go fuck yourself

>>57988481
>incoherent handflapping tard rage
what am I supposed to take from this post

>>57988478
i mean sure, but that's pretty straightforwardly the whole "if i'd asked people what they wanted they would have said a faster horse" thing. it's not a sin to give people precisely what they ask for, but it's no great virtue either

>>57988478
>if you'd been there
This is peak Johtoddler arguing. Make up bullshit and pretend everyone thought that 25 years ago, then shitpost and never give a source.

>>57987186 (OP)
The only thing Nidoking doesn't get is boostan. Its gen 1 movepool is absolutely blessed. Too bad Poison is arbitrarily weak to Psychic

>>57988495
you've got your genwarring mixed up, you were supposed to say hoennbabs

>>57988478
>if you'd been there
This is peak Hoennbab arguing. Make up bullshit and pretend everyone thought that 25 years ago, then shitpost and never give a source.

>>57988497
Wrong, other genfags don't do this. Even Johto detractors post sources.

>>57988503
i mean, the man is literally defending gen 3's similarities to gen 1 and 2

johtofags should be permabanned for shitting up every non porn thread

ah shit, discord invaded the thread.
>inb4 the obvious lie
you pathetic cronies will never be johtofags.

>>57988503
>CITATION FOR THIS CLAIM?!

the zoomer can only understand something if you give it a YouTube video to tell it what it's allowes to think first lol

>>57988516
You got your discordfags mixed up. They love complaining about zoomers and talking up gen 2.

>>57988520
>xhe lies anyway
sad

>>57988526
>nuh uh
Sad. Maybe don't samefag about gen 2 in an unrelated thread next time.

Why DOES Gen 1 and especially Gen 2 break these "people" so badly? Why does it cause such screaming fits of autism to say that an old game had different goals and expectations than a new game? Why is discussion of game design so anathema to these "people?"

>>57988534
People enjoyed the games before they were born and they feel left out.

>>57988530
>zer delusionposts this hard
pathetic

>>57988534
Gen 1 is fine. Gen 2 is so full of terrible design decisions that the only thing it has today is childhood nostalgia.

>>57988534
what is there to talk about with gen 2 design
it was made to pad playtime and piss off the player because of lack of content

>>57988544
>>57988558
>It's different from Gen 3 so it's bad

Here we go again

>>57988560
i give this bait a -2/10

>>57988558
it introduced breeding, friendship, and the day/night cycle. there's a fair amount of meat there for talking about design decisions

>>57988565
>wastes time for dex filler
>wastes time for a nonsensical mechanic
>wastes 18 hours finding teddiursa
glad we agree

>>57988565
But...but... I can't catch Houndour on Route 1!

Nidoking is like the Tauros of in-game RBY.

>>57988567
>i dislike pokemon and am only here to troll people
glad we agree

>>57988567
i mean, yeah, i had two gameboy games growing up, i would have been disappointed if they didn't have outlets for sinking the many hours of my misspent youth

>>57988574
>pokemon is about waiting around, spamming the dpad and wasting time
sorry you have brain damage

>>57988578
and thus we come full circle to acknowledging that the first two games were JRPGs in the classic sense

>>57988565
Friendship is mega gay. I used my Togepi in battle and did the haircut shit and it still wouldn't evolve at level 30

>>57988578
wasting time? you've wasted almost a decade trolling people with your discord buttbuddies about a series you don't even like. don't even pretend like you have any respect for your time.

>>57988585
honestly, i don't disagree, it was way too fucking slow to accumulate in that game, they should have included more tools for grinding it directly

>>57988584
>classic JRPG
Never understood this stance. The timegating mechanics are based from MMOs, not classic JPRGs.

>>57988586
>i'm discord because i don't like waiting around
here we go again.

>>57988589
i doubt they were inspired by MMOs on that, day/night was a pretty common rpg thing and i think they just got caught up in the excitement of being able to tie it to a real time clock. it's more similar design-wise to animal crossing than mmos, honestly

>>57988589
The old JRPG slop references the long ass grinding, like mashing the dpad to hatch eggs

>>57987243
>Only by today's standards.
No, even at launch they were buggy, unfinished garbage two decades behind other JRPGs.

>>57988604
Not for a handheld game.

>>57988598
not even that old, i'm going through etrian odyssey 1 right now, and it's absolutely packed with mechanics that basically just exist to let you go zen mode doing low-level thinky work. so fucking goofy they made an rpg whose core identifying mechanic is "what if the player had to map everything out by hand like in the old days"

>>57988586
Kind of insane to tie not liking a gen to not liking the whole series but okay.

>>57988610
i don't even hate the gen. i think timewasting mechanics are garbage no matter when time period they're from. it's not a gen 2 only thing lmao

>>57987196
>And the strongest poison move in gen 1 was Sludge
Which it doesn't learn. Please play the games

>>57987230
>due to crits being based on speed it's one of the best swords dancers in gen1
Which doesn't matter, because gen 1 crits ignore stat changes

>>57988616
desu, that's a logical stance these days since games are so ubiquitous. i think the shift in design philosophy away from mechanics like that is really what masuda was talking about in his much memed quote about kids loving smart phones. it's a game to be beaten now, not a kid's primary tool for staving off boredom

>>57988628
isn't that what he's saying? it's good specifically because it never crits

>>57987230
You've convinced me to try out Parasect in an RBY run. Got any other shitmon suggestions I might not have tried before?

>>57988631
i think people owned far fewer games before compared to today (physical copies vs steam backlog) so timewasting shit wasn't that frowned upon. but imo if kids back then could skip the wait or the grind they almost definitely would, they just couldn't

>>57988647
It was a lot easier to find people playing GSC back then so you could trade for shit easily.

>>57988647
i mean, none of the timegated stuff in GSC is required, you can definitely beat the game without ever really interacting with any of it. this gets into the very amorphous area of how much delayed gratification is really worth i guess. it was exciting for me as a kid to watch the sun going down outside knowing that i just had to wait a little longer and i could evolve my umbreon. is that moment of anticipation worth the whole of it? idk

>>57988647
As a child if I could have caught a lapras as soon as I wanted to then I would have, but simply having to do it on Friday is why I still remember it fondly today.

>>57988661
Zoomers can do the same shit with Drifloon

Anyway, I like Nidoking

>>57988665
good for them? we're not really genwarring here anon, just discussing the design decision

>>57987243
SMT and DQV were better. It took til gen 2 to get good.

>>57988660
it isn't worth the time and that's the issue kek

>>57988682
i had a lot of time

>>57988675
Gen 1 was already good
Then gen 3 did what it could to fix gen 2

>>57988692
>1
>good

>>57988695
Yes, glad we agree

>>57988692
i don't think gen 3 was trying to do much of anything to gen 2, its eyes seem pretty firmly fixed on RBG

>>57988699
They were going back to gen 1 because of gen 2's shortcomings, see the Pokemon design philosophy

it's pretty telling that you have a thread of people talking positively and discussing game design and then a ~certain group~ comes in and starts shitting themselves and lashing out like retarded apes

>>57988713
This is supposed to be a Nidoking thread, retard.

>>57988624
>It should get that

Not him, but atleast try reading, faggot.

>>57988713
go here >>57988587

57988716
Exhibit A

>>57988699
Seems we both upset the gen 2 hater.

>>57988711
masuda's statements on the development of rse don't really incline me to agree with you. he mostly talks about how successful the franchise had been up to that point, and how nervous he was about the possibility of fumbling it. i think his focus on rbg was because he felt that as long as he didn't stray too far from the origin of the series, GF wouldn't go bankrupt under his watch. this is definitely also why they made the very funny decision to rerelease the first games that early

>>57988731
I think it is interesting that the guy started spazzing out earlier about people who lived through Gen 2's experiences demanding citations, but then slings around insane statements about Gen 3's development

>>57988765
>everyone against me is one person
kek

>>57988731
It depends on how you want to interpret that interview. It could be Masuda playing it safe, but he had his own goals in mind that weren't reached at the time and I think he knew his autistic catch em all audience by now.

>>57988773
>catch em all
never cared about that since gen 1

>>57988768
monkey noises

>>57988773
I don't think you can reinterpret the role anxiety played in his decisions. His story about being completely unable to sleep the night before release out of fear that no one would buy the games, and the massive release when he saw the lines outside the stores the next day is very clear

>>57988779
stay mad

>>57988782
Pretty sure every game director has experienced this lol

>>57988788
Sure, but not universally as the inheritor of something massively successful.

>>57987670
It's really strange how much it feels like everything in gen 1 was intended for gen 4-5 movesets, rules, types, and balance. Like why would you not have any goddamn relevant bug move? Physical statlines with no physical moves, etc. Nothing in gen 1 feels like it was intentional.

>>57988812
It feels intentional in that they favored some types over others, like the wide movepools of Normal types and virtually every Water type learning Surf and Ice Beam. Some types like Bug were destined to be weak.

>>57988824
Gen 1 and 2 made opponent status moves miss more so I never wanted to use grass types as a kid. Fire Pokemon rarely do anything but use Flamethrower or Fire Blast

>>57987186 (OP)
It's lame but he doesn't need those to succeed, he already excels in-game in RBY. Nidoking is one of those mons like Azumarill who got gradually better over time: better moves, Life Orb + Sheer Force, good against fairy types, higher attack (that isn't enough).

>>57988858
>Fire Pokemon rarely do anything but use Flamethrower or Fire Blast
That's true for a lot of Pokemon even today.

>>57989287
Kind of. Early fire Pokemon overall were pretty uninteresting. In gen 1 they usually got my Body Slam TM from lack of moves. A dual type helps a lot to not make them so one-note

>>57988812
Scyther was definitely the worst hit. Your first impression is, that thing is badass. Then you use it, and your impression is, that thing is ass. Only normal type moves should be a crime. Yeah I know Wing Attack exists in Yellow, but the fact that you had to wait for a re-release to get even a shitty coverage option baffles me.

>>57987202
>reddit spacing