Which of these do you consider better design?

>>58007205 (OP)
One but only because I’ve very particular about raising something up myself. Not going to cry over the second though

>>58007214
She meant 2D vs 3D

>58007217
>she

>>58007217
Source?

>>58007221
That's what she meant by the word "design"

>>58007205 (OP)
only pokemon fans want you to believe literal level grinding is a good element of a game

>Dratini can be caught in the Safari Zone using the super rod
Then you just used your 99 rare candies to level up. Great game design.

>>58007222
Source?

>>58007205 (OP)
Dragonite is a 30 year old pokemon every motherfucker has got at this point, doing all that shit in order to get it isn't special anymore. Besides that, they always introduce several new pokemon you have to work to either catch or evolve that fill that exact same role anyway.
It was cool stumbling across that little obscure area of the map and seeing one in the wild.

>>58007205 (OP)
Depends on the design of the game as a whole

>>58007223
>playing the game is... LE BAD actually

Being able to catch Pokemon like Dragonite in the wild would work a lot better if they acted like mini-bosses that are hard to catch. LA had the right idea with high level alphas but the series needs a new catching system for high difficulty encounters, especially if they're sticking with open world.

>>58007205 (OP)
>how to obtain a Dragonite in Kanto: Evolution, rare spawn or gambling
>how to obtain a Dragonite in Paldea: Evolution or rare spawn

I think you could fish for Dragonite in Gen 5 with the rare spots or something.

>>58007274
correct, it's a 1% at those bubbling spots

>>58007252
>repeating the same tedious, one specific thing over and over again instead of organically moving between the different gameplay aspects of the game is "playing"
kek

>>58007313
Newsflash retard if fighting common enemies is a tedious chore than fighting the bosses is also a tedious chore but with more fanfare.

>>58007340
>if beating a million lv.5 pigs is tedious then the boss of the game must suck, too

>>58007262
kanto confirmed more based

>>58007347
Yes actually. Also
>implying gameplay means constantly pushing for new new new novel experience!
>speedrunning exists
>the roguelike genre exists
>pvp games exist
You don't like playing Pokemon. You like flashy lights and spectacle in the Pokemon setting. Maybe stick to the anime.

>>58007224
>99 rare candies
Games aren't designed with cheating in mind. Or are you admitting you never played a Kanto game before?

>>58007364
>Yes actu...
stopped reading here

>>58007205 (OP)
B2W2 hidden grotto (1%, rerolls every 256 steps) since it comes with Multiscale

>>58007205 (OP)
They are both good game design for the game they are in.

Dragonite is the only pokemon that required you to grind that much to acquire in OG Kanto so it was good as it became a badge of honor saying that you've got the knowledge and skill to acquire one of the rarest pokemon in the game.

In SV there are now many pokemon that are a grind to evolve, and the grinding is much easier. So making Dragonite a special encounter (wild steel terratype) in what is one of the most remote areas of the game that you have to search to find is a nice way to still give the player an interrsting experience with it.

>>58007205 (OP)
Typing "Dragonite" on Showdown.
Good game design is when you don't have to play the game.

It's silly for older pokemon to be as hard to obtain in newer games as they were in older games.

Palafin or Kingambit or Gholdengo are the equivalent of Dragonite in the new game.

>>58007391
You don't understand anon, everything has to stay exactly the same as when I was a kid 30 years ago because I'm a sperg and can't handle change.

>>58007391
It is not just the rarity. Dratini in Kanto is also tied up to pretty memorable locations, both because you are likely to spend a lot of time there and because they provide unique gameplay experiences. Pretty much every location where you can find the line in the first 5 gens has something that makes it stand out, be it for plot, lore or gameplay reasons.
What is there in north province area two to make it a memorable experience? Nothing.

>>58007467
Pokemon - the only series that's been stagnant since the beginning yet also changes too much with each new entry.

>>58007205 (OP)
I like working to get rare/strong pokemon, especially when the game has enough to do with them that it's not just a straight grind to level x, rather it happens naturally as I'm playing. However, from a world building perspective fully evolved pokemon should be in the wild just more rare, it'd be weird if absolutely none of them ever got strong enough to fully evolve out in nature where they're fighting to defend territory or hunt.

>>58007205 (OP)
i think strong spawns are part of the reason the whole collecting aspect doesn't feel as impactful anymore desu.
I would say the online making pokemon super accessible also contributed but even in USUM a powerful final stage pokemon still felt important.
If anything the 3DS games may be the best middle ground, offering plenty of easy ways to both obtain and level pokemon but not trivializing the quest with candies and strong spawns/raids.

>>58007252
>adding unnecessary time wasting to a game is… LE GOOD actually

>>58007205 (OP)
The concept of wild evos really bothers me
Safari Zone in this case is a borderline exploit because fishing takes zero steps

>>58007637
Why shouldn't wild Pokémon be able to evolve? Shit like lvl 50 Ratata just feels stupid.

>>58007637
>Safari Zone in this case is a borderline exploit because fishing takes zero steps

But Dratini is a rare spawn, has a 50% flee rate and safari balls have a <8% catch rate IIRC; it's bad enough without having to re-enter the zone.

>>58007385
No one believes you. You got btfo amd are hiding.

>>58007495
I already said it's one of the most remote spots in the game. From the nearest fast travel spots you either have to cross several peaks and valleys over a mountain range to get there, or you have to cross a rocky desert and scale a massive shear cliff at what feels like the end of the world.

Buuuuut I'm getting the feeling no answer is going to satisfy you. You're more looking to complain than discuss. No biggie, we all gotta vent sometimes.

>>58007727
>nobody believes grinding is a thing
Good to know I created the term years ago and has been used to oblivion for decades all without even being something that exists.

>>58007205 (OP)
Hey anon, tell me how to get a Baxcalibur in Violet.

>>58007731
And how is that any different from what you are doing the rest of the game? What stand out about it?
It is an open world, traversing terrain is not exactly novel. Specially when there is nothing cool to see or do.

>>58007495
Wow it's almost like Dragonite is not the most rare and special thing ever in a game with way more rare Pokemon that came out 26 years after Dragonite was new

>>58007752
Get it on a raid or go to the snowy mountain where the prevo is easily spottable and give it a few candies.

>>58007645
I feel like Pokemon evolution should require a specifically human influence, even considering stuff like evolution stones and friendship. Obviously that's not how it works in any corner of the franchise, but that's what I would want.

>>58007572
No, the reason it doesn't feel impactful is because you can import your pokedex from Home.

>>58007755
>how is fighting the Elite 4 any different than all the other battles you've been fighting all game
You see why that logic is flawed? It's not just normal traversal. It's a place that you won't even be able to reach until late into the game. You're being misleading with your use of open world here, as open world does not truly mean you can go anywhere you want right away. You have to unlock different modes of traversing terrain, so yes traversing the terrain to reach the dragonite area would be novel if you went their as soon as you unlocked the ability to do so.

As for the cool stuff to see and do? It's a hidden cliffside area where you can see wild Dragonite, and a special one roams about. The Dragonite themselves make the area memorable. Just because you've become jaded on dragonite doesn't mean the place isn't special because of them.

But like I said, you're not looking to discuss actual design philosophy so I'm kinda wasting my time humoring you with answers.

>>58007783
That doesn't make any sense desu.

>>58007205 (OP)
If the focus of the game is catching, ultimately the game that actually lets me catch the fucking this is objectively the better game design.
Also Dratini and Dragonair from what I recall are also catchable so you can add in a giant OR to that list below the one point in Violet.

>>58007205 (OP)
That's a problem of dex bloat, everyone wants to catch everything over and over, so new regions have like 600 pokémon scattered all over the place

>>58007222
why would they be talking about 2D vs. 3D when the point of the image is to describe methods of obtaining the pokemon
"design" in this context means "game design" not "creature design"

>>58007763
It is not just Dragonite. All the pseudos previous to Gen5 were only obtainable through unique locations or plot related events.
It is only with modern games that you get them in random routes or just standing in the open with no fanfare whatsoever.

>>58007792
You could've saved a lot of time by just saying there is nothing memorable about it.

>>58007205 (OP)
>rare
It has multiple fixed spawns there. I think it even has a spawn in the lake area.

You can also just catch one of the many level 50 something dragonairs in the lake

>>58007495
It's got a bamboo grove, you fight Team Star's strongest member there and it's where you find one of the legendaries. There's a fair bit going on there.

>>58007836
>the placed remembered for having Dragonites
>not memorable
Learn the meaning of words. I hope you learn to find joy in your life.

I think they should do more meme spawns like SM did. Sure buddy, you can get your 0.01% lvl 10 final evo pseudo if you look hard enough.

>>58007277
>1% encounter
>encounter method can’t be mindlessly spammed
Kino

>>58007205 (OP)
Dragonair and Dratini have a way better design than Dragonite.

>>58007783
>evolution stones
It's a literal common rock, bro. It makes less sense for you to see wild Eevees than to see evolved ones who've licked a rock to get stronger.
You'd probably be able to locate good land to stake a mining claim on just by the number of Jolteon or whatever in the area.

I don't like how common rare Pokémon have become, and I also do not like how you can find trade/stone evolutions in the wild now.

>>58007256
yeah to be honest catching mons has always been pretty barebones and unengaging
>encounter mon you want
>get it down to low HP
>preferably also sleep/paralyze it
>spam whatever pokeball is the strongest until it's caught
>occasionally switch mons or heal if it's doing too much damage to your mons
it's all just RNG and means of making it slightly more favorable

there are plenty of gripes to have with SV, this just isn't one of them

in the limited roster of FRLG (less than 200 mons available with no trading), Dragonite was one of the stronger ones available, made sense to give it a clear barrier

now we've got like triple the amount available in one game and dragonite is a far cry from being the strongest thing available, for what reason is there to expect people to grind for it? this shit would be so unrewarding now it's not even funny

>>58007205 (OP)
Dragonite isnt worth the effort

Greetings! I saw this post on X and decided to check out 4chan.

>>58007235
>Dragonite is a 30 year old pokemon every motherfucker has got at this point
Fair but they do this with brand new pseudos too. SwSh had lv60 drakloaks in the wild that you could evolve into dragapult in a single level

>>58010391
> Dragonite was one of the stronger ones available, made sense to give it a clear barrier
Ironically Dragonite was actually pretty mediocre in the early gens and gen 9 is the strongest it's ever been. Not arguing against your point but it's interesting how that changed.

>>58007205 (OP)
is this a bait image?
how is the left supposed to be better than the right?

>>58010989
You actually could find wild Dragapult in the exact same place lmao.

Admittedly though, this could only be done on one of the DLC islands. In the base game, Dreepy can only be found in one place with a 1% spawn rate. I’d wager adding the evolutions to the wild was a way to push a few extra sales from frustrated Dreepy hunters

violet is far better design if you take the rose tinted goggles off and stop malding about "muh 3D games"

>be Kanto
>151 Pokemon
>Dragonite is easily in the top 5 in the entire game
>having one significantly reduces the difficulty of clearing the elite 4 both due to its type and the simple fact a level 55 pokemon is over leveled for this generation


>be Paldea
>over 1000 pokemon at this point
>Dragonite is on the higher end from a PvP perspective, but there are countless comparable alternatives for PvE that are NOT a fat orange retard with too small wings

It’s not like Dragonite is on the first route, or just handed to you for free early game like Latios/Latias in ORAS. You have to go well out of your way to get one. And when you do get it, it probably not gonna be your first round draft pick for your team anyway

There are certain pokemon like Gholdenghoul and Kingambit which are much more obtuse to get, so it’s not like there are no challenging pokemon to acquire

>>58010783
link it

>>58007223
Just catch fully evolved pseudo-legendaries. Just change your party and moves whenever and where ever for no cost. Don't worry about planning for roadblocks and traversal because HMs don't exist. Use TMs as many times as you want (which even they realized isn't ideal and made TRs, so at least there's that). Don't worry about buying pokeballs or healing items because just running around the map will net you more than you'll ever possibly use. You want to get overleveled fast? No problem, there's plenty of raid spots for exp items. That's not enough? Well you'll also get a passive 350% exp gain in battle relative to older games with the reworked exp share. No we did not rebalance anything around this change, so now you can just raise up in levels in the blink of an eye and unlock evolutions and moves much faster than you normally would. And don't worry about if a pokemon has a bad movepool, most of them have been buffed to shit over time so they have coverage, status, and high BP moves, your party will never be caught with its pants down. Hell don't even worry about pokemon being exclusive to unorthodox methods of obtaining like the safari zone, game corner, NPC trade, rotom mansion, etc because they'll just be normally available (PLA at least had spiritomb and the dimensional pocket mons or whatever those were called)
At what point does "removing grinding" and other "inconvenient things" just remove the entire fucking game
The inconvenience pokemon SHOULD be working on is battle time, because battles taking too long makes you not want to do them which probably led to a few of the above changes in the first place, but they haven't tried too hard on that one besides PLA

>>58011346
Instructions unclear
I just genned 6 shinny legendaries and infinite rare candies instead

>>58007205 (OP)
It depends on the type of game you're trying to make. A single player monster catching JRPG? The left. A multiplayer competitive game where players make their own teams? The right.

>>58011346
No Pokemon should have completely worthless move pools. Why even have it in the game if it sucks so hard you can’t use it?

TMs being unlimited was a good change, but should only trigger post game. It was retarded only being able to use a TM a single time and never being able to get another copy.

>>58011620
The right doesn’t matter when Pokehex exists. No one plays PvP with legitimate Pokemon, they just generate their teams with perfect stats

>>58007205 (OP)
I hated how dragonair evolved into this fat ugly thing

>>58011624
Because this is a rpg for babies, even with worthless moves, no pokemon is truly unusable. A Weedle with no moves can beat even the most difficult of pokemon games.
Having every mon get the same movepool and every move do the same thing is just soulless.

>>58011703
Yea Dragonair is so fuckable

>>58011624
>No Pokemon should have completely worthless move pools. Why even have it in the game if it sucks so hard you can’t use it?
It's not so much that they should be unusable as much as not just one man armies that a lot of pokemon seem to be these days. It makes it feel like your choices in party members don't really mean much and you'll never be in a tough position.
>It was retarded only being able to use a TM a single time and never being able to get another copy.
Yes. This could be easily rectified by having a source for copies however, such as the department store, game corner, or post-game facilities.

>>58011696
>Some people would rather skip the game by cheating rather than playing it
Okay, how is that relevant?

>>58011718
>A Weedle with no moves can beat even the most difficult of pokemon games.
Not true actually. I've tried to do a solo run of Fire Red with Bulbasaur only. Its not as easy as you think it is.

>>58011814
Competitive PvP is not the game. If you cheat Pokemon for the story, that’s gay. If you are doing hardcore pvp, you and everyone else is using pokehex because perfect stats are an essential element of pvp

>>58007226
their retarded brain and the voices within

>>58011919
competitive PvP IS the game. the story mode is how you interact with the world of pokémon to collect and train creatures to then use in the PvP, like how you unlock fighting game characters in the story mode then go and play online. it's the same with pokémon

>>58011938
Except fighting games are designed with multiplayer in mind and balanced for competitive play while pokemon games simply aren't.

>>58011719
Sex with Dragonair

>>58007205 (OP)
Why did you repost this? Because it got popular on Twitter?

>>58011919
>you and everyone around if is using genned pokemon
Fucking retarded as that furry, kys yourself.

>>58012124
This is literally the twitter post. We are making the history as we speak

>>58011938
No, pvp with friends is the game. If you use genned pokemon for that you are a fag. Hyper autist competitive formats where you have to micromanage every point of your stats is a side thing very few people engage with.

>>58012182
You are a dumbfuck if you think the super autistic competitive players have anything legitimate on their teams. They constantly have to change and experiment, they aren’t farming and training legitimately for that

>>58012259
>They constantly have to change and experiment, they aren’t farming and training legitimately for that
This is one of the biggest signs that there is a problem with the design of the competitive PVP format. I can't think of any other video game where cheating is almost mandatory to compete in an official capacity.

>>58007205 (OP)
why don’t you just open prizepicks and gamble until you make $2800 so you can play with dragonite

>>58011257
>Dragonite is easily in the top 5 in the entire game
Dragonite is like top 20, barely.

>>58012323
The main problem is that cheating is undetectable if you keep everything within legitimate parameters. A legitimately caught perfect stat Weedle is no different than one made on Pokehex.

They will likely never fix this problem. The second this franchise went online with Diamond and Pearl, hackers moved in. When the 3ds era games made the GTS more accessible, there were trade generator bots running 24/7 from day 1 up to the day Nintendo pulled 3ds support. Nearly a decade of being able to stick a Litten up for trade for anything and getting a perfect stat shiny in return. And it’s no different in the Switch era. If you log into SwSh, you will constantly see raid invites for shinies. And it will continue till the Switch is shut down. They obviously don’t care about fixing this problem, and I am of the opinion that the newer games more generous wild spawns are a direct response to this

>>58012349
In FR/LG? Please enlighten us on what’s better. Remember, this is before post game. So Mewtwo and johto slop don’t count

>>58011346
For me the fun in Pokemon is in experimenting with different builds and trying out new ones. I used over two dozen Pokemon in my Scarlet playthrough plus another dozen for the DLCs. I think this is pretty clearly what the newer games are designed around, you're not meant to just catch 6 and keep them for the whole game, you're supposed to catch a ton and swap team members in and out and try out a bunch of different builds.

>>58012354
I was thinking gen 1 admittedly. Dragonite has actual moves in gen 3.

>>58012355
This is a big reason I am pro infinite use TMs. I WANT to use shitmon that no one ever bothers with, but that’s kinda hard when most TMs in the game are single use and can never be replaced

>>58012359
Wrap Dragonite is the most OP thing in Gen 1.

>>58012360
If you commit to using that shitmon, you don't need a second TM.

>>58012323
Competitive World of Warcraft (at least the classic versions) has a similar issue where the people competing for speedrun times on raids or doing high level PvP will buy gold from Chinese bot farms so that they can spend it on potions and other consumables, which get really expensive because they're hard to make with a fairly limited supply and the gold-buying causes massive inflation in their price.

So the option is either grind for like 20 hours a week to have enough gold to afford the high-tier consumables every week, or pay the bot farmers. And it's basically an open secret that most of the high-tier players choose the latter option, it's the only explanation for the rampant inflation in the economy.

>>58012382
This is why GF will never bother fixing the problem, because it will just be replaced
>somehow figure out a way to ban Pokehex pokemon from online play
>some technology magic prevents any illegitimate Pokemon from being used
>third worlders make perfect IV farming into a business
>most competitive players are monetized and do not care about giving third worlders money for an edge
>we end up right back at square one where all top cut battles are perfect stat teams
>only difference is some brownoid walked away $10 richer

The only actual fix I could ever see working is the permanent removal of trading and online battles can only happen with Pokemon registered to your trainer ID

>>58011346
thankfully all these things are optional to use so now you can't criticize them!

>>58012438
the real fix is just fucking removing ivs. evs are "training" so yeah whatever but ivs are just fucking tedium for the sake of tedium

>>58007205 (OP)
hgss
the game corner is still luck based, but it's actually engaging instead of trying to time your last press whenever the game blesses you with 2 7s in a row. plus, dratini is a useful party member at that point in the game

>>58007391
nuance isnt allowed sorry

>>58013482
You don't have to apologize, I don't operate on what's allowed.

>>58012720
Honestly I'm dissapointed GF got rid of the gamecorner and just made skill based mini games instead. Hell they could just copy paste all those over just with a new coat of paint.

>>58013538
*instead of just making skill based games

>>58007205 (OP)
Even if you had do all the steps required on left i'd still feel like nothing since you can safely keep your Dratini in the back and it'll effortlessly level up on its own due to the forced Exp.Share

>>58007205 (OP)
Dratini and Dragonair should have purpose.