>first Water type in the game
>higher stats than all the starters
>better coverage and support movepool than most starters
>Ice Fang, Waterfall, Crunch, Aqua Tail, Dragon Dance all before level 40
>best ability in the game
>only drawback (grinding up a Magikarp) was removed in gen 6
What were they thinking?

>>58007444 (OP)
> better than blastoise
> better than feraligatr
> sidegrade to swampert
> better than empoleon
> infinitely better than shitmurott (but unavailable in BW)
> actually gets a mega unlike greninja
> better than primarina
> much better than inceleon
> better than the gay duck
Anyone who picks the water starter is a fucking moron.

It makes sense in RBGY, since you have to make an investment to train the Magikarp; and it teaches new players about how evolution can improve a Pokemon.

Nowadays you can just catch a wink* wink* lv 15 Magikarp before the 3rd gym.

>>58007469
>better than feraligatr
GSC Feraligatr is broken as fuck and far better than Gyarados.

>>58007444 (OP)
>>58007469
Gyarados was hot garbage in the first two gens, Intimidate helps it out in Gen 3 but it has no good attacks until you get to the Earthquake TM which is super late in both RSE and FRLG. It's only from Gen 4 onwards where Gyarados is actually a free win button.

>>58007444 (OP)
they were probably thinking
>let’s create an actual reason to use gyarados instead of it being objectively worse then simply sweeping the entire game with your starter

>>58007478
Back in gen 1 Gyarados had very good special stat, which allowed it to use its stab water moves as well as boltbeam+ fireblast coverage.
Gen 4 Gya> gen 1> gen 3>>>>> gen 2

>>58007469
Blastoise was the correct starter in gen 1 because it can learn ice beam/blizzard and Charizard and Venusaur were trash.

>>58007469
Samurottchads won

>>58007469
>sidegrade to Swampert
>>sidegrade

>>58007499
Oh yeah i forgot
>better than Hamurott in PLA

>>58007497
>Charizard and Venusaur were trash.
>Venusaur
Didn't play the games confirmed.

>>58007497
You’re right, but Venusaur has at least some utility for gym 1 and 2

>>58007523
>No Aqua Jet and SD
Sidegrade

>>58007473
This. Tards these days don't remember the times before internet guides and min-maxing.

>>58007522
I don't get it either. both do different things and they're fucking perfect together for pivoting

>>58007469
>better than primarina
No.

>>58007583
Well objectively speaking Swampert is the best starter for its game in the series. No water-type comes close to supplanting it in its game either and the only thing that’s better is Emerald Rayquaza. It’s just a broken as fuck tool for what they expect you to fight.

>>58007497
he gets gigamogged by gyarados and starmie tho

>>58007678
Objectively speaking I can solo the game with 90% of all pokemon just as easy as swampert.

>>58007689
Sure, but it’s not the same. You don’t get the same tools as Swampert. You can solo HGSS with Caterpie but it’s obviously not on the same level as Totodile.

>>58007693
>requires no effort
>never loses a battle
>one shots basically everything
Swampert isn't special, you're just bad.

>>58007702
I must’ve angered you or something because there’s no other reason why you’d be seething like this.

>>58007689
soloing the game wasn’t mentioned tho

>>58007499
>Gets replaced by frillish
You lost

>>58007567
how do we go back

>>58007478
Only ADHD zoomers think this, Gyarados was a perfectly good mixed attacker in gen 2 and 3 when it got moves. In Gen 3 you could have a very powerful Gyarados with Surf, Body Slam, Ice Beam and Earthquake.
>muh stab
>muh attack stat

>>58007497
Charizard gets a guaranteed crit with Slash and is one of the better Earthquake users. Problem is fore coverage is fucking useless in Kanto.

>>58007926
>gen 3
yes
>gen 2
no

>>58007926
>when it got move
Yes, and you don't get moves until 80% of the way through the game because its level up movepool is terrible and all the worthwhile physical TMs it learns are late game.
>muh mixed attacker
Yeah you can use Gyarados' dogshit special attack instead if you really want to, and it can still work fine because it's Pokemon and you can sweep the game with Butterfree, but it's certainly not better than Blatoise or Feraligatr or Swampert which is what the OP is claiming.

>>58007497
Blastoise is the worst starter choice in Gen 1 because there are like 4 other better water types you could use instead. Meanwhile Charizard is the best Fire type in the game (Moltres is a sidegrade) and Venusaur is second only to Exeggutor.

>>58007702
If he's bad but can still beat the game effortlessly with Swampert then it sure sounds like Swampert is special.

>>58007858
>Muh dualSTAB
Otter learns more HMs

>>58007497
Venusaur is undeniably the best starter in gen one you fucking zoomer

>>58007469
>better than feraligatr
Only in HGSS. He's garbo in GSC

>>58008110
Nah, I disagree. Because HGSS still maintains Johto’s experience issue, Gyarados is still worse.

>>58008022
>Mid mixed attacker
A vast movepool isn't going to do shit when you hit like wet paper

>>58007926
>good mixed attacker
>in gen 2
Hidden power flying is unviable in-game for obvious reasons. Double-edge is a transfer move. It cannot learn earthquake. You're stuck with strength on a pokemon with 60 special attack and no good special coverage moves because they're all obtained in the postgame.

GSC Gyarados is the most overrated water type in the game that only gets jacked off because it's a free shiny.

>>58008038
Charmander goes first and one shots most pokemon with ember and slash. Squirtle learns surf and strength, which means you don't need to waste time catching an HM slave and can keep facerolling the game with Nidoking. Venusaur takes too long to win battles in a game with no challenge.

>>58008003
>Charizard is the best fire type
Like saying Pinsir is the best bug type, so you better use him.
Fire is useless in gen 1. Squirtle at least is a strong option in the early game when there aren’t many choices. Charmander is out performed by the other two starters hroughout the whole game.

>>58008150
Played the game
>>58008151
Did not play the game

>>58008154
No, he’s correct. You’re better off forgoing Fire entirely and picking Fearow or Dodrio as your grass killer.

>>58008119
>100/108 offenses
>bad
It has higher mixed offenses than Greninja
>"B-But speed!"
Samurott is fast enough to outspeed most pokemon due to EVs. If it's still not fast enough for you, then give it some carbos. Gen 5 vomits out money.
>"B-But protean!"
Postgame

>>58008162
Fearow is worse than slash spam. Dodrio is obtained too late in the game.

>>58008169
>Fearow is worse than Slash spam
For some reason I thought you learned Drill Peck earlier.
>Doduo is obtained too late
You get it right before the fourth gym.

>>58008178
>You get it right before the fourth gym.
Anything after Brock is too late. This is why Squirtle is the best starter. You don't have to waste time catching a water type.

>>58008165
>Gets outspeed by half of the game and dies because it's a mixed attacker
Rip shitmurott

>>58008134
I dunno man, I did perfectly fine with my Gyarados having Surf/Strength/Blizzard/DragonBreath when I was like 6.

>>58008165
>Greninja out of nowhere
Rent free

>>58007990
You catch the Red Gyarados at level 30 and can immediately teach it Surf. You will realistically get Hydro Pump before the Elite 4, and have access to good but innacurate moves through Johto's TMs.
With some combination of Water HM/Bite/Thrash/Strength/Twister/random elemental coverage you have a perfectly serviceable in-game monster.
>reeee you HAVE to use the higher stat because.... YOU JUST DO OK???
Yes, the game can be beaten with anything but that's not my point. A mixed-attacking Gyarados isn't a chore to use even in Gen 2 because it has decent coverage and everythung ends up with max stats. Surf is effective 120BP so even with a low special attack stat, it's more than enough to one-shot anything that's weak to Water, goes double for Hydro Pump
>b-b-but it's innacurate!
Don't care, that's how powerful moves should work.

>>58008204
>blizzard
What a waste of game corner coins that could have gone to the postgame elemental beams for a pokemon that isn't shit in the postgame. You also had to save money for those coins in a game where money, while technically grindable, is still a valuable resource.
>>58008207
I just picked a mixed attacking pokemon that came to mind. Would you rather have me pick Swampert, Blastoise, Feraligatr, or Empoleon for comparison?

>>58008003
>Meanwhile Charizard is the best Fire type in the game
nah, Arcanine is better

>>58008253
>You catch the Red Gyarados at level 30 and can immediately teach it Surf. You will realistically get Hydro Pump before the Elite 4, and have access to good but innacurate moves through Johto's TMs.
And I could just do all of this on Feraligatr instead and have it be better so I don't see what your point is.

Why the fuck would I use Gyarados when Poliwag can be found in the second route in the game and offers so much more? Wooper's also very good, especially when it learns earthquake.

>>58008273
Arcanine is absolutely terrible in gen 1.

>>58008273
Moltres, Ninetales, and Arcanine have better stats, but Charizard has slash, so it's the better pokemon in-game.

>>58008279
I'm not telling you Gyarados is better than Feraligatr, I don't know why you keep repeating that. I never said anything about "the best", I said it's perfectly good and usable in response to people trying to claim Gyarados is some awful shitmon on the level of Tropius or Raticate.
I don't understand people's obsession with "best best best it has to be the best and best over everything without effort or the game is literally unplayable!"
Relax.

>>58008270
>Complaining about "wasting" coins when they're infinite
Not my fault you suck at the slots and have to buy all your coins. Also not as if there's a finite or even scarce amount of money in the game.

>>58008294
>I'm not telling you Gyarados is better than Feraligatr, I don't know why you keep repeating that.
The OP is about Gyarados supposedly being better than Feraligatr and every other water starter, that's what I'm arguing against. You apparently are arguing for no reason.

>>58008294
Only retards say Gyarados is some awful shitmon. You get it at 30 in a region where everything is level, what, 15-20? And then you can teach it Strength and wipe 90% of Johto shitmon out.

Does anybody here ACTUALLY play the games they spend all day talking about?
In Gen I and Gen II, learnset is everything. Stats don't matter if you only learn 5 moves by level and have access to 4 random TMs. That's why Charizard is good, because he has workable stats and a great movepool. That's why Magmar sucks cocks despite also having good stats.
That's also why Gyarados is decent, and why Blastoise sucks ass, and why Venusaur is pain in the ass to use and is less effective in-game than Vileplume.

>>58008294
The fact that you have go out of your way to make Gyarados work by using the game corner is proof enough that it's heavily lacking in gen 2.

The best water types in the game either learn an ice move by level up (Lapras, Suicune, Cloyster), or can be easily taught ice punch (Feraligatr, Quagsire, Poliwrath). All of these pokemon have utility that go beyond a mediocre moveset. Gyarados on the other hand has very little to offer other than looking cool.

What's the Gyarados equivalent of each gen?
I wanna say that Azumarill is kinda Gen 2's own version but I might be memeing a bit too much here.

>>58008299
>>>actually playing the game corner
By the time you could have earned that prize, you could have beaten Red, idiot.

>>58008304
And I am not the OP, and I am not arguing.
I posted a general response to retards making Gyarados out to be unusuable, with examples stating why that isn't true. OP's shitpost means nothing to me.

You are in fact the one arguing, and trying to tell me that because Gyarados isn't some fucking 900BST giganigga, it sucks and shouldn't be used. But enjoy "winning" and argument only you were involved in (autism or schizophrenia? /vp/ take a vote!).

>>58008320
>easy to obtain pokemon that is helpless until it evolves, then crushes the entire game
GSC Kadabra is the single best pokemon in the entire game. It's so good that it's one of the best rentals in Stadium 2.

>>58008315
>charizard has a great learnset
>look inside
>slash at level 33
Venusaur gets razor leaf 3 levels earlier, leech seed and poison powder, and actually functions in the type chart.
Both get Body Slam (the best move in the game) so it’s more or less a draw on tms

>>58008320
>annoying-to-grind shitmon that becomes a monster after evolving
The objective counterpart is Feebas, but it’s not quite the same. I think Wimpod is probably the closest even if it’s not perfect.

Just because it isn't unusable, doesn't mean it's fucking garbage that's outclassed by half a dozen other pokemon.

>>58008319
>>58008322
See, I don't even know what the fuck the issue you guys have is. The Game Corner may or may not be something you enjoy doing, but it is a part of the game.

What you're coming about is that you have to.... Play the game.... And raise your Pokemon...? Like what the fuck are we doing here, if you don't enjoy playing the game why are you playing it? Even if you just think the slots suck, which is understandable, why is it a "bad" thing that you have to """"go out of your way"""" to get a powerful move for a Pokemon you want to use? And again, what's the obsession with "best"? All Pokemon are useable in game, some are easier to use, so what does it matter, just pick the ones you like and want to train.

>>58008334
*it's not
Fuck you, I'm at work

>>58008329
Ok retard
>Body slams (the best move in the game)
I know you're a zoomer who only knows RBY through speedrun troons but try and listen to people who played the game.
Razor Leaf is cool, but has pathetic base power and is the best Geass move Venusaur gets besides Solarbeam. Oh it's doubled because it's a critical hit? Nice, but that negates all stat buffs including the ones you get from badges.
Leech Seed is good but slow as shit in Gen 1 and doesn't activate if you KO. Poison is slow, useless shit in Gen 1 as well, Sleep Powder is a much more useful option.
Charizard gets Slash at 33 (before it evolves) and gets several TMs Ivysaur can't, Mega Kick and Punch for instance. With Ivysaur your only good move is Vine Whip for 30 levels, while Charmeleon gets crits quite often even without Slash which is good since Scratch is weak. Venusaur is not better than Charizard in a game situation where you're looking for coverage.... Charizard kills frail mons with Slash, has Flamethrower coming off a nice special stat, is immune to ground while learning Earthquake, and even gets Swords Dance if you want (although that's pointless because your crits ignore it).

>>58008335
Because the harsh reality is that some pokemon are better than others. Sure, you can crawl through the third act with Gyarados, but you could also just catch Lapras or Poliwag, have a much easier time clearing a larger section of the game with Gyarados by virtue of having better stats and moves, and have the utility of sleep moves in a game where they are at their most useful.

Gyarados is a mediocre pokemon in GSC and much better options exist. Deal with it, gyaracuck

>>58008330
I don't really bother much with most Unova mons cause of the evo lvl requirements, would they count?

>>58008323
>And I am not the OP, and I am not arguing.
Then why the hell are you replying to me?
>You are in fact the one arguing, and trying to tell me that because Gyarados isn't some fucking 900BST giganigga, it sucks and shouldn't be used. But enjoy "winning" and argument only you were involved in (autism or schizophrenia? /vp/ take a vote!).
I see the problem, you don't know how to read.

>>58008349
Are you mentally ill or just retarded? I literally told you in my last two posts why it doesn't matter that one Pokemon is objectively better than another if they're both useable in their own ways. Why do you care so much about minmax bullshit that you post like a /v/ console warrior?

For me it's the Magnemite line whenever they're silly enough to make it available early on.
Must be even sillier with the change in evo mechanics nowadays.

>>58008386
>YOU CAN'T REPLY TO ME UNLESS YOU'RE THE OP (BECAUSE WE'RE GAY FAG LOVERS TOGETHER)!!!
You really are the dumbest motherfucker on the board huh? You replied to me first, or not, but you're replying to me now. Is there some rule only OP can talk to you? You sad, fat, pathetic, stupid fucking faggot, holy shit kill yourself.

>>58008360
Nah, you tend to get them right before they level up and they’re not Magikarp-tier.

>>58008397
My post was in direct response to OP claiming Gyarados is better than any water starter. I was pointing out how that's wrong and Gyara was actually kinda shit in the early gens. You came in with your cope about how "Actually Gyarados is the 37th best Water type in GSC and is totally usable!" Either you were somehow trying to argue that being an extremely mediocre offensive water type makes it better than Feraligatr or you just felt the pressing need to add absolutely nothing of value to the conversation at all. Either way you're a fucking retard.

>>58008431
My first post was >>58007926
Follow the reply chain. I was never OP but people kept replying to me, and in truly brown fashion, missing my point.
It was never shit, I never ranked it, I told you it was usable and you don't need to play some nuslop with a phys/spec split, or infinite TMs, or whatever to make it so.

>>58008424
>Nah, you tend to get them right before they level up
In Unova you do but in later gens they kind of just put them around randomly and you can often get them like 30 levels before they can evolve. Also Noibat has the same problem in gen 8 and 9, it's got worse stats than a route 1 shitmon and doesn't evolve until fucking level 48 but you can catch it at like level 13 in the post-Kalos games.

>>58008347
>Leads about how crits aren’t great because it ignores stat buffs
>Ends with talking about how great Charizard is because slash spam
I guess I don’t even need to say anything, you kinda just disproved your own argument before you even started it

>>58007444 (OP)
gen 1 privilege

>>58008482
>>58008482
Again, play the games. Charizard has a far better attack stat than Venusaur does Special, and Slash is 75 BP vs Razor Leaf at 55. Charmeleon specifically benefits from crits because it's working with weak moves, Ivysaur isn't fast enough to get many crits on anything besides Razor Leaf.
Slash is good coverage for Zard because he has a really nice attack stat, the ignored badge boost doesn't matter, and it's basically using a 150 power move for free.
Venusaur specifically is good with Razor Leaf but it's relatively a slog to get there and you'll have to use up a nice TM if you wanna do anything but Vine Whip for 5 gyms.

>>58007444 (OP)
They were thinking that it's fucking ugly andevolves from a stupid fish so a ton of players would just skip it, especially ones who already had a water starter.
Also in many of those gens there are better options that you conveniently left out, like how Starmie completely mogs it in gen 1, or how it's actually worse than Gatr in 2.

>>58008456
Well that’s gay.

>>58008393
>Why do you care so much about minmax bullshit that you post like a /v/ console warrior?
It is in our nature as animals to compare sticks and stones, and is what ensured the survival and advancement of our species.

Objective tier list

>S
Nidoran male/Nidoran female with Squirtle HM slave
>A
Charmander
>B
Squirtle, Bulbasaur
>C
Pikachu

>>58008491
Not him, but
>play the games
Slash has 70 BP. Charizard has base 84 attack. Venusaur has base 100 special and STAB on Razor Leaf. Not only are you wrong on both instances, you’re also a clown for demanding someone play the games when you clearly haven’t.

>>58008547
The. Base. Stat. Doesn't. Matter. In. A. Game. With. Stat. Exp.

The moves are about equal but the ENTIRE point is that neither Zard nor Saur is better than the other, that Zard feels better to use, and that Saur is slow with meh coverage. COMPARATIVELY.
All of the Kanto starters are good and well balanced for the games they're in though, moreso than later games.

>>58008547
>Venusaur has base 100 special and STAB on Razor Leaf
And it's resisted by half the mons in the game

Slash + fire moves give Charizard flawless neutral coverage against everything except rock types, who are all melted by fire moves due to their low special defense. Onix is weak, Geodude is has to choose and land rock throw twice, and there are no Rhyhorns with rock moves.

Venusaur's body slam is not only far weaker and lacks OHKO potential, but forces you to use the TM on it and can't hit the ghosts either. Wearing down mons with Venusaur takes forever while Charizard just spams slash or whatever fire move you're using.

>>58007476
How so?

>>58008595
Not him, but
>strongest right off the bat with the strongest pre-STAB damage output as ir has a stronger move that doesn't miss
>still hits harder that razor leaf due to all the bugs, Pidgeys, and Bellsprouts resisting grass
>gets even stronger with rage, a move that can sweep even Red once pikachu is gone
>strong enough that it doesn't mind evolving late
>one of the best answers to Morty since it learns bite, which is now a dark type move
>reaches its final stage at only level 30
>learns ice punch for consistent water/ice damage output
There's a lot of strong competition for water types in GSC (not Gyarados lmao), and Feraligatr stands among the elite.

>>58008570
>i-it doesn’t matter with stat exp
It does.
>Saur is slow
Venusaur has base 80 speed. I don’t really see a point in discussing this with you anymore because at this point it’s very clear you either haven’t played the games or don’t remember them concretely.
>>58008571
Sure.

>>58008588
>far weaker
>>far
Charizard and Venusaur have roughly equivalent attack stats. You people really don’t play these games do you? You’re only here for dick-waving competitions.

>>58008619
Slash is consistently far stronger than body slam, retard.

>>58008621
Which is significantly weaker than Razor Leaf. Which goes back to the point: you don’t play these games.

>>58008626
Neutral slash is stronger than resisted razor leaf. There are half a dozen relevant quad resists: Eirika's Vileplume and Victreebel, Sabrina's Venomoth, the confuse ray Golbats that plague the late game, Lance's Dragonite, and Gary's Charizard. Agatha's Ghosts also have high special to sponge razor leafs.

While it's certainly easy to spam razor leaf until these eventually go down, Charizard just clicks slash and kills everything in 1-2 hits instead.

You retarded buffoon. You brainless shit-smeared monkey. Don't you realise if you catch runtler it can sweep almost everything with antler stab and you can teach it slime beam for coverage? Whereas gongomong has 10 lower attack and a worse moveset so it takes 35 seconds longer to beat the game, making it utterly worthless trash.

>>58008335
>What you're coming about is that you have to.... Play the game.... And raise your Pokemon...?
It's an inefficient waste of time and objectively inferior to soloing the game with your starter.
Everyone who's not a retard knew this since age 6, but it also has been proven in multiple threads over the last few years. Teamtrannies/differentpokemontrannies have never been able to provide a decent argument for their mental illness.

>>58007444 (OP)
>NO MORE SPUNKY IN MY SALMON BUSHES!

>>58007469
Pick Fire, it's the rarest type of the three.

>>58007469
>better than Blastoise
>sidegrade to Swampert
>better than Primarina
Nah. Those three steamroll their respective campaigns so hard there’s no reason to baby a Magikarp and deal with Gyarados’s shitty early moves for that long. Beyond braindead starter choices that completely trivialize the experience.