Replayed them recently. they are fine. but I don't get why people are so obsessed with these games

A lot of it is due to its horde of mods. Did you make it to Final Doom as well or just end at Doom 2?

>>11806613
I only played D1, D2, and No Rest for the living.

>>11806604 (OP)
Good enough to play through for one person usually means good enough to autistically fixate on for at least one other. I like old doom but I usually do a playthrough once or twice a year at most. Try plutonia next time you get the itch

They're fun. They're simple. They're easy to pick up and play, and don't require a huge time investment. That's all it takes to stand the test of time. Even my mom likes blasting demons from time to time.

>>11806623
based mom

>>11806604 (OP)
yeah the campaigns aren't like that great or anything
I think it has more to do with the mod culture around the games, where the proliferation of wads and such has become so prevalent
ease of access and use is part of it too

>>11806604 (OP)
Cause you weren't there

>>11806604 (OP)
Because they don't make games that are just "fine" nowadays.

>>11806652
I exclusively play the base campaigns from DOOM 1. DOOM 2 sucks thanks to Sandy's heavier involvement, all the addon-packs suck, and every mod is made by some soulless, dopamine-fried hipster who thinks more archviles means more fun (they are wrong.)

>>11806729
you aren't playing the right WADs
even so, skill issue

>>11806732
Rec me some good ones that are better than the classic DOOM episodes. I'll wait.

I think it ultimately comes down to the novelty of pseudo 3d bsp graphics(yes I know technically real 3d). it just triggers something in people of that era, they'll never get tired of making worlds out boxes and flat sprites.

>>11806604 (OP)
Are you playing on Ultra Violence? I’m not trying to be a difficulty snob, but the levels were all designed for that difficulty and then for the lower difficulties they just remove enemies and add items. Personally the game loses its whole rhythm when you take the difficulty down. Espescially because it removes any need to switch around weapons to conserve ammo. Also TNT Evilution is bretty gud.
Anyways, I think Romero’s contribution is undervalued these days in favor of Carmack’s technical innovations. Playing Romero’s earlier games, particularly Dangerous Dave’s haunted mansion, it’s clear that he gave the game the fast paced arcade style gameplay and the satisfying weapon feel, even if he isn’t a total coding “genius” or whatever.

>>11806759
>I’m not trying to be a difficulty snob, but the levels were all designed for that difficulty
Is there a source on this?

>>11806759
Oh yeah, and I really like how in D1+2 port you can scale internal resolution and add the classic borders. I think playing in high resolutions, high brightness, with a wide fov is dogshit and makes the game way too easy. The game should be fairly dark and you shouldnt be able to see every enemy on screen in the wide open areas, or make out enemies from far away. Maybe people disagree with this, but all the graphical upgrades just break the immersion and make the game look like a carnival shooting gallery.

Because they're really good games.
>>11806759
>the levels were all designed for that difficulty
I've never seen anyone from id say that. And some things suggest otherwise, like all the sergeants in E1M1 when the shotgun is otherwise hidden in a secret near the end of the level.
If anything the ammo issue is because levels were designed to be pistol started, and tested that way. Everything is a hell of a lot tighter that way, particularly level starts (obviously).

>>11806773
>>11806775
Romero says this explicitly in both Masters of Doom and Doom Guy.
>but in E1M1!
The cope.. you’re a scrub

>>11806785
An exact quote or page number would be cool, I'd like to have that for reference and to make sure it doesn't only apply to his levels. I don't think the community at large is on the same page.

>>11806729
Nah, Doom 2 > Doom 1 by far.
Doom 1 is so vanilla it hurts.

>>11806604 (OP)
2 ways to get people obsessed with your game: customization and online play.

>>11806729
>every mod is made by some soulless, dopamine-fried hipster who thinks more archviles means more fun
I think they're just made by people whose concept of Doom doesn't begin and end with Knee Deep in the Dead.

>>11806737
you're not going to play them. at best you'll pretend you did and just come back and say they're shit.
I'll save myself the trouble.

>>11806790
the community at large absolutely holds UV as standard difficulty

>>11806623
one time in high school we did an experiment with people's heart rates while doing different or stressful things. a short chubby girl played 2 and a half levels and told all the zombies "yeah die fucker!" it was cute. and her heartrate decreased.

>>11807047
whoa, epic

>>11806604 (OP)
They're just FPS cut down to the bone simplicity wise. You see demons, you kill demons. Runs like greased lightning on modern machines even with large and complex maps, drop in drop out gameplay, its just simple good fun.

>>11806785
>you’re a scrub
I am, but not enough that I find the original iwads hard. Doom is an easy game, and when people complained it was too easy id added Nightmare, effectively as a practical joke.
It always seemed to me more like it was balanced around HMP, with extra monsters thrown in for UV with less thought put into them.

>>11806604 (OP)
Amazing level design. Fun maps, fun secrets. Name shooters you like more and then we can discuss.

I'm not into mods so I can't speak for those, but a lot of vanilla levels are just really well designed. The new episode "Legacy of Rust" is really really cool, despite some bs parts on some levels imo.

>>11806604 (OP)
Doom 2's additions to the gameplay ended up adding shitloads of potential depth which the original devs themselves really didn't explore that much, Final Doom (primarily Plutonia) gets MUCH more creative with map design and encounter design, and they make for interesting challenges.
Plutonia is pretty hard, but in clever ways, and most of the maps are on the short side, it ends up feeling like an arcade-ish fun.

>>11806729
Sucks that you're bad at videogames and that you hate fun. Maybe you'd enjoy another hobby instead?

>>11806737
>Plutonia
>No Rest For The Living
>Alien Vendetta (this one gets retard hard on UV, playing on HMP is fine)
>Scythe & Scythe 2
>Epic 2
>Hard Fast Faggot Maps
>Interception
>Bloodstain
>Pirate Doom 1 & 2
>TNT Revilution
>Nihility : Infinite Teeth
>Valiant
>Ancient Aliens
>Doom 64 For Doom 2
>Alpha Accident

>>11806759
Sort of true. For Romero specifically, he would design around HMP as his baseline, then make it easier for HNTR, and go harder on UV.
However, the base Doom and Doom 2 are just not very hard, there's only a handful of actually mean ambushes/traps in Doom and Doom 2. If you have any prior experience with shooters, you should be able to do them UV without much trouble.

Minor exception is Episode 4 which was added to the first Doom after Doom 2's release, that one actually tries to be hard, and the first few levels give you very little health and ammo to work with.

>>11807196
>It always seemed to me more like it was balanced around HMP
well you were wrong

>>11806859
>people whose concept of Doom doesn't begin and end with Knee Deep in the Dead
I'm always completely baffled that these are real people and that they exist. MAP29 of Doom 2 is by the same author of most of KDITD, and it blows KDITD out of the fucking water.

>>11806875
It's a common thought, but when it comes to custom content, then UV isn't gonna hold the original game's baseline, it's gonna be whatever the fuck they want it to be.
With Plutonia, the thought was that UV on MAP01 starts at the difficulty of Doom 2's endgame levels on UV, and then it continues escalating in challenge more and more as it goes, they wanted it to be so tough that they themselves could barely beat it.

Overall, it's pretty common for people to design around UV, and then scale it down for lower difficulties, but some people do it differently. Hell, some people don't even DO lower difficulties, because they're they're too lazy to.

>>11807785
>when it comes to custom content, then UV isn't gonna hold the original game's baseline
you don't know what the fuck you're talking about
mappers target UV as a default difficulty

>>11807795
I map and I target UV as a baseline, but what I'm saying is that, A, some people don't actually do this (Romero is one of them), and B, what's UV in Doom 2 isn't going to be comparable in difficulty to what UV is in something like Alien Vendetta and Sunlust, which are going to be a LOT harder (thus, just playing Doom 2 would not make you ready to play those on UV).

I think Duke 3D is superior, but as people have pointed out, Doom is a pretty good middleground between the way too simplistic Wolf 3D and future FPSes that might just be too complicated for some people. It has the right amount of broad appeal

>>11807824
I love Duke 3D, like to an unhealthy amount, but I think that Doom 2's monster set is more flexible. Similarly for Quake.

There's things which those games do better with monsters in some aspects though, like how hitscanners in Duke don't have perfect instant aim, meaning you can actually outrun or sidestep their targetting, as opposed to Doom, where if you're in a hitscanner's line of sight that means that he's immediately got a bead on you when he's taking aim, they track perfectly.

>>11806604 (OP)
>these games are just ok
>I should replay them though
Are you a retard?

>>11807853
>but I think that Doom 2's monster set is more flexible.

But Doom 2 is just not a big enough leap for me even if I like the new enemies and the SS. You call a game Doom 2, it better BE Doom 2 -- and not basically an expansion pack.

>>11806737
Plutonia
If you like that, Scythe
If you like that, Ancient Aliens and/or Valiant
At this point, you'll either be hooked or filtered by difficulty.

I think its because of the level design more than anything

there were a few other good ones back then though for the same reasons

>>11807914
I kind of get you, but at the same time the first Doom to me, it feels like it's not quite enough in all that it is, the monster setup BADLY needed the new guys in Doom 2, at least a few of them, so Doom 2 adding a lot of refreshing complexity and variety onto the first game's gameplay.
The Super Shotgun was a good addition to even things out with some of the new monsters, and Doom 2 has enemy encounters where you might actually really want to have the BFG9000, as opposed to the first game where it's just kind of there as a secret, but there's never a time you feel that you actually gotta have it.

It pretty much is an expansion pack, but at least it's a good one.
If I'm gonna criticize it for some things, it's that it relies a bit too heavily on brown and tan textures, reuses some music tracks too often, that a few of the levels are kinda weak, and that the game would probably have really benefited from having its levels divided up into episodes like the first game did, complete with the intermission maps.
The intermission maps woulda been cool, and the difficulty level of the game would have been stronger if you got reset once or twice along the way, so that you don't always have your cool toys. (Plus, there would have been space for one or two more secret levels).
Icon Of Sin isn't perhaps the best end boss ever, but he's also an improvisation to try to have something different at the end of the game, since they didn't have the time to have an all new monster model made (a lot of the new monsters in Doom 2 were unfinished ones left out of the first game).

>>11807196
You know, I went about my day and when I came home I thought about this post and decided to humor you. I fired up some levels of Doom on HMP. Jumped around a bit, E1, Doom 2, Master Levels, TNT..
I can now confirm you are a big baby. HMP is way too easy. Didn’t have a single encounter with enemies that was tense at all. This is fun to you?
I get it: playing UV over the years I’ve died a lot. I feel like people get really discouraged or frustrated when they a game pushes against them, and then they never figure out how to get good. I’m not really sure if that’s your issue or what deficiency you have in your brain, but you’re missing out. UV is just right for me. I can know a level inside and out and still die if I let my guard down. It’s akin to arcade difficulty. Really what it reminds me of is Tempest.

>>11806604 (OP)
I have been interested in playing this port. I saw youtube videos that it has its issues but I am still interested in trying it out on console. Yes I know gzdoom and all that, I've played it a trillion times.

>>11808217
>HMP is way too easy
Almost as easy as learning to fucking read. I did not say UV was too hard, I said it seemed less well designed. Particularly given that the context those levels were made in wasn't one where people had been playing FPS games for 30 years, but one where they were basically new.
HMP is "normal" and UV is "hard", ie more challenge for people used to the game.

Any of you guys beat any of the vanilla games on nightmare? Does beating Doom 3 on nightmare count? kek

>>11806604 (OP)
probably nostalgia , I have a clear memory of catching watching doom 2 in 1994 playing on an expo computer and it was mesmerizing to say the least.

>>11807932
Thanks anon. I'll check em out.

>>11808569
>nostalgia
While I was born in 91, I didn't play Doom before the 360 Xbox Live Arcade release, so there's no nostalgia here

>>11806604 (OP)
Doom 1 and 2 are good, but definitely a bit ordinary, and lacking in challenge (Besides a couple TFC maps).
Plutonia was the first time Doom actually felt consistently intense. Then pwads like Alien Vendetta, Scythe 2, and Kama Sutra were what got me permanently hooked.

>>11806604 (OP)
Dunno either. Quake II and Quake III Arena were what made ID Software legendary in my opinion, but I respect their groundbreaking work on Doom.

>>11806618
Play Plutonia OP. At the minimum. I don't feel like classic Doom truly clicked with me until I played Plutonia on UV for the first time.

>>11806729
>DOOM 2 sucks thanks to Sandy's heavier involvement
I think this is largely a meme. Doom II has some slogs for sure but I always enjoy it more than I think from memory.

>>11808745
I'd say it's an exaggeration, but a lot of Doom 2's levels are badly flawed. How much you care about the various flaws will heavily affect how you feel about the result.
"Sandy Bad" is a meme though, especially levelled only at 2. Even discounting every level Tom Hall touched, he still made a lot of Doom's levels. He was the most prolific and experimental of the original level designers, so it's no surprise he made all the "worst" maps.

>>11808334
Except UV was beaten by a large enough number of people on release that Romero added in Nightmare as a fuck you to all the people who said it wasn’t hard enough. Crazy how they did that without 30 years of experience playing fps. Also funny you accuse me of not reading your comment and then proceed to ignore everything in my reply and try to argue on a stupid technicality.
There’s really no point in continuing to talk to you because it’s now obvious you’re just a casual who would spend infinitely more time in discussion threads arguing about why a game is good/bad rather than actually try to get good.

>>11806604 (OP)
The only reason why this ancient game managed to maintain popularity is due to the simple fact that ID software was smart enough to release its source code back in the day.
Not even taking the genre into consideration, few games manage to come even remotely close to its massive modding community.

There are basically as many WADs as there are video games period. Think about that. We literally have an Ao Oni Doom conversion of all things.

>>11809940
I've always been intrigued by what their exact motivation was in terms of giving away the source code to their games so easily. It was a good business move in the end because they basically created a cult that has followed their games for 40 years straight, but you have to wonder what marketers/publishers thought:
>So... you want to take this highly successful game and... and give it away?
Mind you that they were one of the first companies to popularize porting games to every platform possible, so they knew the value of squeezing the lemon dry, which makes it even stranger. Although I guess since they were also big on shareware, it was part of their business model from the beginning.

>>11806729
>thanks to Sandy's heavier involvement
It's more so thanks to Romero slacking off during its development (he made less maps than he did for Doom 1's shareware episode), alongside Sandy being unable to rely on Tom Hall's leftovers anymore. Its no wonder why many of Sandy's maps ended up lacking in polish.

>>11806604 (OP)
The series died with a whimper after Final Doom released.
I play them to remember what Doom was, not the souless husk of marketing slop and generic space marine dogshit it is today.
It was better back then.

>>11809985
The motivation was John Carmack wanted to release it, basically because he'd have wanted people to do that when he was growing up. The business people weren't in a position to refuse because of Carmack's influence, and the publishers didn't have a say.

>>11809940
>The only reason why this ancient game managed to maintain popularity is due to the simple fact that ID software was smart enough to release its source code back in the day.
There are countless no-name games which did that which remain forgotten, Doom was also a good and solid game at its core.

The source code was also not available from the start, Doom released in 1993, Doom 2 in 1994, and the source code was released December 27th, 1997, a time by which Quake had been the hot new thing, and a few weeks after the release of Quake 2. iD also never released any of their tools (because they were all NEXSTeP software which wouldn't run on PC or Mac anyway), people simply had to craft all the software they needed themselves, before they even had the source code.

The mapping and modding scene sure kept it alive, but it never would have if the games hadn't been strong games with a staying power of their own.

>>11810329
John Carmack wanted it for personal and ideological reasons, and so did John Romero, both of them were very much on the exact same page on this, because both of them grew up as troubled bedroom coders who learned their crafts by studying and taking apart other people's software. For Carmack and Romero, this was their "Hacker's Ethos," and why Carmack refused to patent anything.

Having seen people hack and transform Wolfenstein 3D (including things like the mod where you shoot Barney The Dinosaur, which they thought was hilarious), they both thought that it would be really cool if Doom could directly facilitate users modifying the game, thus the .wad loading system. With Doom, they loved a lot of what they saw people do modding it too, one of those Star Wars Doom conversions really wowed them. Guys like Jay Wilbur and Kevin Cloud really didn't like the idea of the .wad thing because of the fear of exploitation and competition, but Cloud admitted later that he was completely wrong and that it was the right thing to do.

>>11806604 (OP)
It was the first really good FPS with multiplayer. We played over modem. The first really good FPS with mods support (WAD files). There was DEU, DEUTEX, BSP node builder, zennode, even fricking waded. Some of them were buggy and would occasionally mess up your level good, but when they worked, you could make anything the original developers did in the game (especially with DEU+DEUTEX). Go see SUDTIC for an early Doom WAD file that was a full episode, including a secret level, it was awesome for the time. Heck I still occasionally play it these days, after so many years, it's that good for a Doom wad.

DoomII is the best arcade oriented shooter. Been playing it off and on since 1995 and mapping is even more fun. It's a total package as a game, legend and technical master piece. I prefer Quake in multiplayer though.

id lost their spark after 1996 for me.

>>11813925
>best arcade oriented shooter.
Funnily enough, Doom was originally trying to move away from the arcade conventions that Wolf 3D had, like score and lives. The Items stat is effectively a leftover from when Doom was going to have treasure pickups during development, and Quake removed the stat entirely.

>>11814197

Yes.
I meant arcade as in simple and very effective game play which feels responsive / amazing and has good feedback.

>>11807214

Agree.
I heavily enjoyed it in single player and on LAN. Still my two favorites of all time.
The only downside is that the maps of Episode 2/3(with exceptions) and many of DoomII's lacked some kind of quality control. Had Gee and Romero gone over the Peterson's maps the whole game would have benefited heavily from it. Ego killed of a lot of map quality potential in id.

>>11807785

Map29 was an amazing map - Bromero's entries were really good.

>>11806729
Based Doom 1 supremacist and I think you're right about a percentage of mods, but obviously not all of them. Some of the best mods are for Doom 1 - Base Ganymede, Phobos: Anomaly Reborn, and Sinergy for example.

To me Doom has long stopped being a game to me. I see it more as a creative platform a codebase to explore these days.

>>11814847
The roblox of boomers, as some would say

>>11807785
The Living End is by far my favorite map in the series.

I think Doom 2 overall is the better game, I think Doom 1 just packs it good levels together at the beginning and peters out around halfway through episode 2 while Doom 2 has less bad levels but they're kind of scattershot throughout the entire thing.

I also think some people just don't like the fact Doom 2 demands more of the player. Good example is in map01, if you don't have the metroid gamer instinct to go in the wrong direction first, you won't find the chainsaw and it's easy to run out of ammo on that level with all the imps and lack of hitscanners and go into map02 pretty disempowered.

Compare that to e1m1 which gives a lot of hints for secrets. Blatantly discolored walls and a big ass window showing the mega armor. The big ass window in map01 just shows a grassy plane with the secret shotgun tucked out of view, etc. You have to really explore and pay attention to the sounds of doors opening and such to get good resources. And the combat is obviously a lot more complex with the new monsters and deeper understanding of how they function in a good fight on the developers part.

Its kind of insane in retrospect how there's been two trilogies of Doom games now where the first game is an extremely accessible crowd pleasing game that doesn't ask a whole lot of the player, but the ability to push yourself is there with speedrunning and such. The second game is a divisive title that asks a lot more and comes off as somewhat off beat and experimental. And the third game is more heavy and story driven.

>>11814883
Quake on a technical level reminds me a bit of Roblox. The game logic all being serverside. The way the game somewhat encouraged every server owner to make the game their own with QuakeC. I heard somewhere Romero called it a "metaverse" at some point, back when that term wasn't associated with the stench of Musk, and it was intended server owners could have portals to each others worlds, which you can kinda do with some QuakeC command line hack I guess. But idk how true that is.