So what exactly happened to Bethesda between Morrowind and Oblivion? How the hell do you go from developing the former to the latter immediately afterwards?

>>11823767 (OP)
Morrowind to Oblivion is par for the course. The Daggerfall to Morrowind dropoff is where they started appealing to console audiences that don't play RPGs

>>11823786
I'm getting slightly tired of bullshit spread by zoomers.
From the very start both Arena and DF were meant for casual PC gamers. Had it not been for the blank cheque given to Kirkbride, Morrowind wouldn't have got 50% of all the hype simply because at its core it's a simplified DF.

>>11823767 (OP)
Oblivion is just a better version of Morrowind. It is a very logical progression. I'm not sure what exactly you're asking. Also I don't think Oblivion counts as /vr/.

>>11823767 (OP)
Morrowind had the excuse of being the first experiment of it's kind, a fully 3D open world RPG with every item and NPC being interactable
Oblivion didn't, it had the technology and a much higher budget and a bigger staff but it was a sloppy disaster
Wasted Potential: The Slop

>>11823786
Daggerfall is not a fun game and the world is very boring.

>>11823836
>Oblivion is just a better version of Morrowind
for me to poop on

>>11823826
>it's a simplified DF.
Sure buddy a dozen different language skills that do literally fuck all is so much depth

>>11823786
This is a cope by people who glorify RNG'd monotony and barely baked concepts which are in reality underdeveloped and insignificant.
Daggerfall is miles and miles wide, but half an inch deep.

>>11823826
>it's a simplified DF
In a multitude of aspects, Morrowind is a far more developed and refined game. Daggerfall has a lot of ideas and concepts, but most of them are poorly developed because their budget and projected development time was cut in half, they had high ambitions they couldn't meet.

Morrowind had comparatively more reserved ambitions, but also a better budget and longer development time, and they managed to balance ambition, project scope, and their actual means, with reality, and it's a far more focused and well realized game in just about all the ways that matter.
Yeah, Morrowind doesn't have language skills, but Daggerfall's language skills were simply useless.

What do I build if I just want to beat the game and not sweat too much or have to do too many side quests.
I never finished Morrowind because I either get bogged down in side quests or I seem to have trouble with every other combat. I want to have "seen the ending" checked so I next time I can just dilly-dally without uncertainty of where the ending is.
Also Solstheim is ASS and kind of ruined the game for me for a while.

>>11824105
>What do I build if I just want to beat the game
Redguard Warrior, just go through the main quest.

>>11823887
>Daggerfall has a lot of ideas and concepts
Which dazzle and sweep some of their feet
>oh boy 40 skills?? how deep is that?!
But it's all an illusion

>>11823786
LMAO. Only the people who've never played Daggerfall might genuinely believe you. Those of us who did know that you're full of shit.

>>11823767 (OP)
>How did they go from a casual RPG to a casual RPG?
It's a mystery

>>11824105
Doesn't really matter.
The hardest quest if you are just doing the main quest is going to be finding the Dwemer cube. The rest is just a matter of proof reading the journal, and learning a teleport spell or two, and making sure to have some potions for Water Walk/Levitation.

More and more console focus.
Yeah, Morrowind already had a console port but it was clearly much more of an afterthought.

>>11824189
>More and more console focus
What does that mean? All they had to do was remap controls for a controller, which was possible for Daggerfall too.

>>11823767 (OP)
Console plebs and Peter Jackson's incredible Lord of the Rings films.

>>11823767 (OP)
It’s really really simple. Morrowind was primarily a PC game targeting PC gamers. Oblivion was primarily a console game targeting console gamers. Obvious. Close thread ban OP.

Honestly the only good Elder Scrolls game is Skyrim. Anytime I see someone look back on the games before it I get a sense of 'youre only liking the games so you can flex your e-peen on 4chan'. I can say this about a few other games as well but I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of Morrowind and Oblivion fans are like this..

>>11824246
>Anytime I see someone look back on the games before it I get a sense of 'youre only liking the games so you can flex your e-peen on 4chan'.
Because that makes more sense to you than people having different preferences?

>>11823836
Tamriel Rebuilt exists in large part because Oblivion fucked the entire world building up, not to mention the plethora of cut mechanics like Mark/Recall/Levitation due to consolization.

>>11824274
>Tamriel Rebuilt exists in large part because Oblivion
Is this your headcanon?

>>11824223
You're crazy if you believe Morrowind's UI wasn't incredibly PC centric

>>11824280
Concession accepted

>>11824302
So console focus is about the UI, or..?

>>11824309
It certainly shows where the devs' priorities lie, yeah

>>11823786
Word.
Battlespire and Redguard were a sign of things to come, but I still thought those were just quick cash-ins and actual main TES entry will be good.
I expected some pullback, since it was obvious they couldn't manage the scope of Buggerfall, e.g. falling through the void was so common, they just gave up and patched in a teleportation system through the way-points.
But, bro... they really went to the town dumbing Morrowind down to autistic levels. And never stopped since.

>>11824274
>but look at this mod-ACK!

Who gives a fuck about some mod lol

>>11824328
Controller support?

>>11824274
Based, it's wild getting new PGttE lore after 20 years and knowing Todd and co. threw it away in favor of LOTR lite

Genuine question for the "they consolized TES for Morrowind" posters, assuming they're sincere and not just underage zoomies trying to fit in.

Lets say Morrowind never came to Xbox. How would the game be better? What areas would Bethesda instead focus on if they didn't have to keep the Xbox in mind? It seems like most of the "downgrades" (if you can even call it that) don't stem from Morrowind being a PC/Xbox exclusive, but rather come from the fact that Morrowind was a more carefully crafted 3D experience rather than a procedurally generated 2.5D one.

>>11824363
I’m not going to play pretend with you. I’m not going to save the Sega Saturn.

>>11824363
>What areas would Bethesda instead focus on if they didn't have to keep the Xbox in mind?
Game use many more button on keyboard, make brain big and smart.

>>11824363
maybe different cell transitions/larger cells

>>11824363
it's not the xbox they kept in mind, it's the xbox users. they could've made it in 3D without casualizing it. wizardry 8 was able to do this just fine.
compare the dungeons in daggerfall that were actual dungons with secrets and traps that had great use for your climbing and swimming skills. the dungeons in morrowind are linear and flat in comparison.
it's an overall streamlined experience with no more consequences or expectations of the player. diseases are a joke, classes are just stat allocations, the factions are gutted along with the crime system, and there's no agency in the main quest

>>11824551
>wizardry 8 was
The last entry to the series before bankruptcy lol

Bethesda would have died making another daggerfall

>>11824551
>compare the dungeons in daggerfall that were actual dungons with secrets and traps that had great use for your climbing and swimming skills
Morrowind's got a few good ones, they're just far and few in-between and the rest are straightforward and short. Thankfully it's not the only thing it has going for it: "World" exploration feels like an improvement in MW whereas 95% of my enjoyment in Daggerfall is coming from it's dungeon crawls (which I'm fine with, I often just ignore DF's mainquest when I play it just to dungeon crawl through random guild quests).

>>11824572
>95% of my enjoyment in Daggerfall is coming from it's dungeon crawls
Which is why DF remains niche

>>11824565
maybe death would be preferable to 50 skyrim releases and digging fallout out of the grave for a first person shooter
>>11824572
outside the dungeons is a lot of slow, boring autowalking. fast travel is missed, as are horses

>>11824575
>maybe death would be preferable to
a bunch of good games that came afterwards? No.

>>11824575
>outside the dungeons is a lot of slow, boring autowalking. fast travel is missed, as are horses
It sucks when you want to be a heavy armor wearer and I do miss horses, otherwise I enjoy seeing what small dungeons I can come across while exploring and managing boat+silt strider travel options with mysticism (Divine/Alsimvi intervention, mark/recall).

Imagine playing Morrowind with the music turned off. Which is to say, picture the game with the only positive factor removed and 20 years on from the novelty of a fantasy GTA being interesting. Terrible graphics, atrocious animations, terrible gameplay, uninteresting NPCs, boring quests.
I don't actually think Oblivion is very good, but the idea that Morrowind is good while Oblivion isn't is such delusion that I really can't comprehend it. I've never had the urge to play Morrowind again since Oblivion's release, though I did a few times and was blown away by the game's unappeal at every level.
The "depth" of Morrowind consists of gaming the poorly thought out magic system to create game breaking combinations. Funny exactly one time.

>>11824267
If they have different taste in games, that's fine. All I was saying that my gut tells me that a lot of people or at least a decent portion who vehemently defend these old games to death are putting it on for identity purposes rather than because they like them.

>>11824620
>Imagine playing Morrowind with the music turned off
It's what I do when my playthrough reaches Kogoruhn and other big Sixth House bases, the calming ambient tracks don't suit the mood.

>>11824631
I've done that in some games. I prefer hearing the ambient sounds, footsteps, lurking monsters. Disabling music can be beneficial, if there was any thought put into sound design.
Maybe there's a mod to disable music inside dungeons..

Todd was fine when he had people willing to scream and argue with him to eventually a compromise, it all went to shit when he got absolute power.

>>11824793
>it all went to shit when he got absolute power.
When was that?

>>11824189
The XBox and PC versions were developed in tandem.

>>11824620
Goofy opinion.

>>11824551
>compare the dungeons in daggerfall that were actual dungons with secrets and traps that had great use for your climbing and swimming skills
Daggerfall's main quest dungeons are pretty good, but all the procedurally generated ones are complete dogshit.

>>11824246
I grew tired of Skyrim after putting maybe 100hrs into it, and don't want to play it ever again. Meanwhile, I come back to Morrowind every few years, I can't even imagine how many hours I've sunk into this game.

>>11824363
The argument is that they consolized Oblivion thoughever

>>11823836
>Oblivion is a shit version of Morrowind
correct!

>>11823767 (OP)
looking at prerelease renders of Morrowind makes me sad vivec looks way more alive in this shot

>>11824551
>compare the dungeons in daggerfall
The nonsensical, labyrinthian series of corridors that don't make any thematic sense as places that once existed and were in service?

>ctrl+f
>>no mention of microsoft

>>11824575
>death would be preferable to Morrowind existing
Yeah, no

>>11824853
Nope.

Can any Morrowind knowers tell me do models in the game have lods?

>>11824934
That many NPCs would lag on modern PCs lol

>>11824620
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong

>>11824302
It's not PC centric, it's just shitty, probably modal windows were the only way to show UI in this engine

>>11824978
Are you arguing that windows which can be freely moved, resized, and pinned are not PC centric?

>>11824992
Nta, but customizing UI is possible on consoles, but I prefer user interfaces that do not require much tinkering, outside few settings.

>>11825008
I’m not talking about customizable UI, I’m talking about UI windows that control exactly like a window on a PC operating system.

>>11824962
No it wouldn't.

>>11825082
Aren't the controls there for customization? Or fixing it if you change resolution lol

>>11824962
I could open Morrowind’s included modding tool right now, plunk down that many NPCs, and run the mod on an era appropriate PC. It would be fine.

>>11825097
>plunk down that many NPCs
That are currently visible on that one picture? I'm sure you don't need mods for that

>>11825097
>>11825116
There has to be countless interior and exterior locations in the stock game which features 9 or more NPCs in one place.

Bethesda has always been overrated. They don't know how to make good animations, good combat, good bossfights. Things which are vital to good game design.

The sovl... how do we bring it back?

boomer bros, could you please tell me what was your experience when Morrowind released? We still mostly had PC mags and I don't recall much anticipation before the release then it went instaclassic and got all the goty accolades

>>11826650
>don't recall much anticipation before the release
The previous games were buggy dungeon crawlers overshadowed by ultima underworld

>>11826650
>could you please tell me what was your experience when Morrowind released?
I only played Oblivion without knowing what it was. I never heard about this game and became totally addicted to it. I just never played an open world game like this, apart from Shenmue maybe (which was still somethign very different).

These games are also deceiving tho. On the surface they look incredly deep and full of content, but when you play them you can't help but notice how samey everything is, how there is a severe lack of good combat, a lack of boss fights, a lack of interesting loot, etc.

Final Fantasy 7 for example maybe not as open world as these games, but at least the game is entertaining, with awesome music and interesting boss designs.

>>11824939
>>11824861
>>11824551
IMO Arena is the only Elder Scrolls game with good dungeons. The ones you’ll actually visit are all handcrafted because that game was designed first and foremost as a dungeon crawler. Arena is the only game that actually has puzzles, in every other game they’re very rare, very simple switch puzzles, or both. Arena regularly gives you logic puzzles and riddles as a bar to progression in its dungeons. There’s not much beyond that, but it’s far better than the alternative. Daggerfall has the potential to have better dungeons with its expanded game mechanics, but in practice most of the one’s you’ll visit are overly complicated and their quest objectives are frequently broken. I prefer Arena’s more manageable floor-based system, with often necessary 1 puzzle per floor.

I say this as someone who has tried every Elder Scrolls game, getting about 1/4 to 3/4 through the main quest in each.

>>11826667
>These games are also deceiving tho
Lol no they aren't. You just expected less from the likes of FF7, where limitations are clear as day.

>>11826650
While didn't get it a lanuch, in 2003 got it used for the Xbox for maybe 19 or 20
But didn't have a xbox at the time
Frist heard about if from toonami

The map was awsome

Then in 2004 for $9.99 morrowind was sitting on a shelf just a jewel case at Walmart

was total trash at playing it didn't know what I was doing
Eventually gave up on the main quest

was blow away with the item dropping
Made pillow forts pretending they were sandbags, loved mix matching armour

shit my self when reading the books
only to find out later the books are copyed over from dragger fall and arena

Got criticized for playing something
Just got metal gear 3 but I was having fun stealing, fighting gruads then role-playing I'm going to be legit after spending 100 days in jail

Just like c&c tiberan sun
eventually obtained 3 copies of morrowind
Not happy that black box didn't include the other games that made construction kit a thing

>>11826650
I played the beginning on a friend's original xbox and was completely blown away because I'd never played any of the 3D open world precursors to it (I'd been a PC gamer in the '90s but fell out of it, mostly for life reasons but I'd also hated the moves to live action and 3D). I had a PC that could just barely run it and kinda halfass played it in that desperate quality but never got far. Eventually I built a real PC in like 2003 and finally played the complete edition quite a bit. I remember at the time if you had talked to me I'd have complained about a million things in Morrowind like how the economy sucks that I'd expected them to fix in the next game, but now that no one is ever going to do that and they're also going to have completely retarded writing I can't really care about the things Morrowind failed at anymore.

>>11826673
Yeah, no.

>>11826650
Didn't get it at launch, rather some time later, and had never actually heard of it when I first saw it at a friend's house, and his dad was playing it, with the Tribunal expansion.
Because I was an immature dipshit, I wrote it off pretty quickly, just watching for a few seconds, and laughed at some part.

Many months later, when our family got a new PC, my older brother had gotten a copy of it. This time I ended up watching longer, and in more detail, and it was actually really interesting, it looked cool.
I got to try it at my brother's encouragement, and it really caught me, I had never played a game with a world which was as detailed and open, with so many options. In terms of a free roaming open world, it made GTA3 feel like a joke in comparison.
It would quickly become one of my favorite games.

>>11826729
>I wrote it off pretty quickly, just watching for a few seconds, and laughed at some part.
Same here, watching a friend play it. Few years later I was a full-time n'wah, barely stopping to eat.

>>11826738
When you're an n'wah, you don't have time to eat. We will find you and we will kill you, filthy s'wit

>>11826650
I heard of it from word of mouth, so no clue on the manufactured "reception" from gaming magazines.
All my friends played it and some were really into it, while I and some others treated it more like GTA. It was funny, had a ton of content, and a ton of variety. After a while, it got boring and we moved on.
All the flaws people complain about today were visible back then. Yes, including graphics and combat system. Though "missing" isn't actually a valid complaint.

>>11823767 (OP)
>So what exactly happened to Bethesda between Morrowind and Oblivion?
They released Morrowind on xbox and it sold like hotcakes. They realized where their real market was.

>>11827081
I've only got some sources through references on its wikipage but still:
>overall Morrowind units sold by 2005 ~ 4 million units according to https://web.archive.org/web/20100710090443/http://www.elderscrolls.com/news/press_081705.htm
>estimated franchise sales for all PC Elder Scrolls titles by 2006 ~ 990000
Either some numbers are really wrong, or that just really puts things into perspective towards how much more Morrowind sold on Xbox.

>>11826673
>You just expected less from the likes of FF7, where limitations are clear as day.
FF7 just had different priorities. They really focused on the story and "cinematic experience" while Elder Scrolls focused on the sandbox gameplay. You have all this freedom in Oblivion, but in turn the game doesn't really excell at anything apart from the freedom.

I grew up with arcade games, so things like cool animations and bossfights are important to me. Elder Scrolls sadly never had this. Skyrim tried to do it a little bit with the dragons, but even that was kinda disappointing.

>>11827250
Skyrim actually had more bossfights with unique mechanics. Previous games had Mankar and Dagoth Ur, but besides that, bosses were just strong opponents.

But yes Skyrim isn't the arcade game you played as a child.

>>11827291
>Skyrim actually had more bossfights with unique mechanics
The "boss fights" in these games are terrible tho. Dark Souls 1 came out around the same time as Skyrim and actually has real boss fights. Elder Scrolls simply has shitty combat, and combat is very important in RPGs. They are as wide as ocean, as deep as a puddle. The magic is terrible too. Skyrim magic feels like playing a first person shooter. Baldurs Gate has interesting magic spells, Elder Scrolls sells are terrible. The only thing these games are good at is the open world aspect and character creation. If they would improve on the combat with inspirations from Dark Souls, and improve the magic with Baldurs Gate or DnD influence, they would be 100 times better games. But like this it's a bit disappointing. Just wasted potential.

>>11827396
Yes and Thief has better stealth, so these 3 games combined are almost better than Skyrim!

>>11827396
Holy shit does this read like bait

>>11827396
Please explain why you enjoy the Baldurs Gate magic system, id like to hear how its better. I understand your point about DS combat.

>>11827528
BG has a vancian magic system, which is superior to having a magic bar. It gives you a limited amount of spells, but therefor the spells are very powerful and interesting. Lots of fun AOE spells like entangle or web. ou can get really strategic with the spells in BG. Plus the combat is really fun because you play with a whole party and also face real hordes of enemies. Skyrim magic has too many fireball/lightning/ice spike spells. Either you shoot some projectile through the crosshair, or you shoot a flamethrower through it. It feels like a first person shooter.

>>11827556
>It feels like a first person shooter.
I can see how the first person perspective might give you that feel.

>>11827575
Doesn't matter the perspective. If you use 3rd person perspective it feels like a 3rd person shooter.
It's clear that Bethesda spends a lot of time on the world building, map design, quests and open world aspect in these games, that's why other parts of it feel lackluster. But those parts are core aspects to the actual gameplay.

>>11827584
Maybe they should add isometric as a third camera mode. It would be very versatile.

>>11827592
Someone made something doing something similar recently. It's still early in development and requires Openmw.

>>11827592
It only would make sense if you could play with a whole party in these games. I don't mind playing alone in these games. Not every RPG needs party gameplay. But still, the combat definitely could be improved upon.

>>11827609
>But still, the combat definitely could be improved upon.
What does it need to feel less like a first person shooter?

>>11827614
I already explained. Better animations and boss fights, like in Dark Souls, better magic system and spells like in BG.

>>11827618
You'd still shoot spells from first person..

In BG you also can precisely aim your AoE spells which is also fun. Like this you can nuke a big chunk of enemies with well placed spells. This is also something elder scrolls lacks.

>>11823767 (OP)
I don't know what you're talking about, Oblivion feels a lot like morrowind in terms of it's gameplay, just modified. If you play morrowind with regenerating magic and 100% hit chance it practically plays like oblivion, as a matter of fact you can modify oblivion to play like morrowind (it sucks). The writing and world design is par for the course if you played any other ES game. If anything Daggerfall to Morrowind was a bigger change than MW to Oblivion. These games are barely RPG's to begin with and if you try to play them as such you're not going to get that much enjoyment out of them, they're adventure games lol.

>>11827620
You'd still melee from first/third person as well. I've kind of accepted that if I strictly want decent combat that I'm not going to find it in a Bethesda game, which is fine because there's things in Morrowind I'm not going to find in those games.

>>11827624
>I've kind of accepted that if I strictly want decent combat that I'm not going to find it in a Bethesda game, which is fine because there's things in Morrowind I'm not going to find in those games.
Wise man. Expecting a game to pull of multiple aspects simultaneously as well as any other existing (and wholly different) game would be pretty ridiculous.

>>11823767 (OP)
The Media that influenced the people who made Morrowind was much more niche and alien, and because of the success of normie fantasy they had to switch gears.

>>11824340
zoomers are so confident in being retarded

>>11827630
Bethesda just cares more about adding The Sims gameplay to their games instead of making the combat better. They rather let you adopt children and add romance options. Things which are completely irrelevant to the core gameplay of killing enemies in games.

>>11827685
>Things which are completely irrelevant to the core gameplay of killing enemies in games.
If the "core gameplay" to you is combat and killing enemies, I don't think you'll ever be satisfied by Bethesda games since they're so broad in their focus.

>>11827713
He's just baiting

>>11827623
>These games are barely RPG's to begin with
Morrowind is barely an RPG?

>>11827621
You can literally do this in Morrowind.

>>11827556
Not entirely untrue, I suppose. MP versus slots is more of a subjective thing, and while broadly, you could do spells like slowdown, paralyze, charm, silence, etc, also buffs to stats and shields, and with area effect to all of them, Baldur's Gate has certain inherent functional variety to a lot of its spells.
I also do like the squad tactics type of combat quite a lot, as well as sufficiently brutal hits actually fucking gibbing enemies like in a game like Doom or Quake, that sort of feedback is particularly satisfying when you're playing a class like a Berserker or Barbarian using Enrage.

However, as much as I love Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, they unfortunately have extremely little roleplaying in them, they are pretty on-rails adventures. Morrowind comparatively offers an incredibly wide range of variety and options for roleplaying, with varying factions and abstract ways to achieve goals, as well as letting you become a vampire or werewolf.

As an example, in Morrowind you can outright make a character who does all he can to avoid combat and killing, and of done right that's actually possible. You can level up and become more capable while using Hand To Hand, Calm, Paralyze, Burden, Levitate, Invisibility, Sneak, Security, Mercantile, Speechcraft, Athletics, Acrobatics, Telekinesis, etc.

You could REALLY not do this in Baldur's Gate, those games are pretty damn firmly about bloodshed. You couldn't play as a Thief/Merchant who tries to avoid deadly violence at all costs, deadly violence is typically the only viable approach.

>>11824341
controllers usually lead to simpler inputs, more design for action vs. thinking, and a general sense that you need to make something less like Ultima and more like Mario. Don't take that the wrong way; There's nothing wrong with Mario. What's wrong is trying to turn a slow thought based game into Mario. I argue console controls encourage that direction. More so when the console clearly outsells the PC. More so when the player sitting much further away from the TV than a PC player his monitor leads to making icons bigger, which leads to making screens less detailed, which keads to generally less depth, because you start designing everything toward a design base less focused on slow thinking games, and an audience who are conditioned to more action. Think of using a website clearly designed for a smartphone on a desktop. You could display many options on the bigger display, but instead you are forced to use a hamburger menu. You could have all the buttons clustered together, but you are instead shown a few giant buttons that take up the whole page. These things don't just influence UX, they lead to influencing even how players think while using them, because the player is coming in with preconceived notions and preconditionrd ideas of what a certain game will be based on its controls. That leads into more than just interface but the entire thought process. This is readily available even 40 years ago when comparing Ultima to its dumbed down japanese descendant Dragon Quest, a game whose design was explicitly simplified from Ultima for ease of play on consoles. Even the console ports of Ultima from that time period got similar changes.
tl;dr interface dictates a great many things and this is inherent to any design process.

>>11827896
This is a smart sounding theory that's been going around for many years.
I'll point out that screens got bigger with better resolutions, controllers got more buttons. You can add endless complexity to a game, that doesn't make a game good.

RPGs would have received streamlining even if consoles never existed. Diablo was a PC game. It sold pretty well.

>>11824308
>"I don't have an argument"
Fucking retard.

>>11827623
Retard

>>11827685
Who's to say that must be the "core gameplay" instead of just another system the player is free to choose whether to engage with or not? If I start a New Game on Morrowind and decide to be a thief, what part of my playstyle is gonna force me into "killing enemies"?

>>11827938
I love Diablo and it's a great example of a simple and straightforward game executed VERY well, but it's a thoroughbred Rogue-ish dungeon crawler, and not much else besides that.

In terms of roleplaying, it just doesn't have any. You pick a class, a name, and beyond that you pick stats when levelling and whatever equipment and spells you can source.
Each class handles differently, and there's certain variety in tactics and approaches, but there's no real "builds" of classes or anything, any Warrior of sufficient stats is gonna be equally good as any other Warrior and so on.
The quests are super simple and they're all fetch and kill quests, even Baldur's Gate has much more variety here because you sometimes have dialogue options and alternatives which have differing outcomes. Literally the only time you get to choose the outcome in a quest in Diablo is if you're giving Ogden his stolen sign back or if you're bringing it to Snotspill, the former you get a reward, the latter you don't, but either way you're still hacking Snotspill and his gang up into pieces so you can continue into the Catacombs.

Again, love the fuck out of Diablo, I must have sunk thousands and thousands of hours into it, but it just isn't a roleplaying game to me.

>>11827685
What a ridiculous and silly opinion.

I played Skyrim
>>11828224
shut up bitch, how fucking dare you

>>11829310
I dare because I don't respect you. Your opinion is ridiculous and silly.

>>11823767 (OP)
daggerfall was a story driven dungeon crawler
morrowind was an open world rpg
oblivion was a owrpg/arpg hybrid
skyrim was an arpg with an open world
they were all good in their respective genres. unpopular opinion: bethesda is good at what they do, their fans just suck at gauging genres.

>>11829316
well respect is earned, which you would know if your mother raised you right. but look, this is America, if you want to be queer, then I can't stop you, that's your right. I just don't think you should marry the children you adopt in Skyrim, not even with mods

>>11829337
Genre autism is the lowest form of vidya discussion

>>11829337
>morrowind was an open world rpg
>oblivion was a owrpg/arpg hybrid
>skyrim was an arpg with an open world
they're literally all the same shit

>>11829352
its relevant when comparing two games of different genres and asking why they're different. it's literally the answer to the question.
>>11829354
they're not. in skyrim the enemies don't even use the same systems as the player. the most obvious is the different magicka systems for the player and mobs. they're visually similar but mechanically completely different. that the game levels with the player in oblivion and skyrim is an obvious feature of an arpg which focuses more on keeping combat challenging than on character building.

>>11829375
>game levels with the player in oblivion and skyrim
and morrowind

>>11829375
>they're not.
but they are. they're all open world RPGs.
this is like the third or fourth thread today where people are trying to argue that minor differences in gameplay make for completely different genres. has there been some big influx of retards today, or is this all the same fag running around being hyper-autistic about game mechanics?

>>11829379
false
loot is leveled, and more creatures are diseased or blighted as you level up, but creatures/bandits/whatever are always at a set level.

>>11829401
you have some narrow view of level scaling when the enemies and loot adapting to the player's level isn't level scaling
even daggerfall does this

>>11829406
>the enemies
they don't scale in morrowind.

>>11829401
Did you know Morrowind is the only one out of the tree where rats get stronger as you level up?

>>11829415
if youre going to just make shit up, why should anyone bother talking to you?

>>11829418
>he doesn't know
Sorry to burst your bubble

>>11829424
>he's making shit up
Sorry i'm not falling for it

>>11823767 (OP)
You take all that you learned from Morrowind and then make an even better game, Oblivion, using that experience as a base. Daggerfall is shit btw.

>>11829431
morrowind is better than oblivion, though. we're they retarded?

>>11829337
Tell me with a straight face Starfield was good, by any metric

>>11823849
>Morrowind had the excuse of being the first experiment of it's kind, a fully 3D open world RPG with every item and NPC being interactable
What is Gothic?

>>11829418
he's right, you fuckign idiot

>>11829427
In Morrowind PC level determines what enemies or their variants spawn, much like Oblivion and Skyrim.

Skyrim might have the most dangerous world for a low level player. Spriggans, frost trolls, hagravens, ice wraiths, wispmothers in the wild.. scary shit.
Meanwhile in Morrowind you have to be over level 10 for something challenging to spawn.

>>11829460
no, "he" (you) is not

>>11829456
starfield was made to take money from casuals and it did an exceptional job of it.

>>11829472
That depends on where you go. If you mean just critters out in the wildnerness, sure, but if you go to Kogoruhn or try to raid the Telvanni Vaults at Level 1, you are going to get hyperraped.

>>11829472
> in Morrowind you have to be over level 10 for something challenging to spawn.
you clearly never played it
go to the wrong area at low level and you are going to get ripped apart like wet paper

>>11829513
>Kogoruhn
That one is tougher, it has both leveled and set creatures!

>>11829458
you can't even grab and hold items in Gothic

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as someone that just played daggerfall and morrowind back to back I actually think morrowind is less accessible, the way you start out with extremely low athletics with most builds and the way you have to hunt keywords just feels less immersive than the relatively conventional systems of daggerfall. But daggerfall is also way more brutal in terms of dungeon crawling, and the stats feel more consequential.
this nonsense that oblivion is a natural progression has no ground though, morrowind was extremely unique, the lore was challenging and engaging, oblivion meanwhile is more generic than daggerfall. oblivion to skyrim is a natural progression though.

>>11823849
Damocles actually.

>>11823849
>a fully 3D open world RPG with every item and NPC being interactable
this is not the case with morrowind any more than it is with daggerfall.

>>11830760
>this nonsense that oblivion is a natural progression has no ground though
Gameplay wise. Oblivion doesn't have chance to hit, spell failure, dodge or block rolls, but that's about it. If you don't play Morrowind with an empty stamina bar, very little changes going to Oblivion.

>>11830785
how do you play morrowind without an empty stamina bar exactly?

>>11830789
Wait for an hour before doing anything

>>11830785
Except the part where Oblivion tucks blunt weapons and axes into the same skill, deletes medium armor, crossbows, throwing weapons, and spears, and it has that really shitty and retarded level scaling all over the game.

>>11830789
Use the thousands of free restore stamina potions which the game throws at you.

>>11830785
by the way, chance to hit was good in morrowind, I think people mistakingly attributed their frustration to that instead of more deserving elements like the dialogue system and clunky early game. it was REALLY good in daggerfall, actually made things feel tense.
Also, aside from gameplay not being the most important part, let's be realistic that morrowind and oblivion plays very different in practice, basically everyone that played morrowind for more than 50 hours ended up cheesing it and making the world their playground while I'd bet less than 5% of oblivion players ever exploited the speed stat, one of the very few major exploits left over.

>>11830792
Those don't really affect gameplay.. spears maybe, but claymores/warhammers give you longer reach too

>>11830795
but why, you could just ignore it. never have I missed stamina

>>11830798
>chance to hit was good in morrowind
It is if you actually pay attention to your stamina, and adhere to the weapon skills of the class you picked/made. Many people struggle fiercely with this, however.

>>11830803
You definitely will, because you'll fight shittier when your stamina runs out, you reduce your chance to hit, you hit weaker, and you're more likely to be staggered, and less likely to block hits with a shield.

>>11830810
>You definitely will, because you'll fight shittier when your stamina runs out
I always run mages

>>11830798
>chance to hit was good in morrowind
I don't mind it, but it's pretty much only relevant to newbies or retards.

Same with speed, newbies and retards make these characters that are slow as shit and never hit anything. No wonder they get frustrated.

>>11830798
>basically everyone that played morrowind for more than 50 hours ended up cheesing it
Yeah, no. Exploits make games incredibly boring. Type tgm to the console while you're at it.

>>11830798
>basically everyone that played morrowind for more than 50 hours ended up cheesing it
This is projection.

>>11823767 (OP)
>what happens to make a developer make a more accessible game that brings in a lot more money?
food and college tuition isn't free retard

>>11823826
>cancerous retard: "MY idiotic headcanon is perfectly valid, YOUR idiotic headcanon is preposterous!"

>>11830824
>>11830818
never talked with the morrowind community. finding some nonsense is incredibly common, it's not just ash yam and bloat. ending up with some way of jumping super far or levitating super fast is extremely common and it also feels like the game expects it. also unlike skyrim this game wasn't designed for 3000 hours of gameplay, you're not supposed to play forever, you reach the height of your power as you're finishing off the major questlines and then most players put it down.

>>11830832
>finding some nonsense is incredibly common, it's not just ash yam and bloat. ending up with some way of jumping super far or levitating super fast is extremely common
If you mean the Scrolls Of Icarian Flight, they do let you jump far as fuck, but 1, you only get three of them, 2, their effect runs out before you hit the ground, so 3, unless you use another one or do something else to take the impact or decelerate, you're dead.

>>11830846
yes the scrolls of icarian flight are placed near the start to inspire the player to find their own method, that's correct.

>>11830832
This is some completionist autist talking, isn't it?

There's tons of content for different characters to replay with.

>>11830832
Weird opinions.

>>11830873
you're mistaking hard facts and opinions I'm afraid

>>11830875
No, you just have an absurd perception on games, probably owing to something that's inhuman about you.

>>11830883
The only thing inhuman about me is my devotion and love to my fellow man, including you anon. I would die for you.

>>11830892
Ick

>>11828202
>>>11827685 (You)
If all you do in these games is just running around and steal stuff, then the game simply has shitty gameplay. Just running around mixing potions, cooking and exploring is not good gameplay. It's nice to have it as an option, but it's also boring gameplay.

Literally every RPG has killing enemies as the main gameplay. That's what these games are about. Killing and getting stronger.

>>11831186
>That's what these games are about.
You don’t get “experience” from killing things in these games, you level up from using your skills. If you want to be a sneaky illusionist who casts things like paralyze and invisibility when someone spots him and things go tits up, you can do that.

>>11830824
no, this is an incredibly common player experience
all the systems are designed for you to eventually do some incredibly broken shir

>>11830849
it's a pretty common sentiment that gets repeated on /v/ a lot. I never understood that degree of powergaming but there's similar exploits in oblivion with spellcrafting and skyrim with enchanting

>>11823767 (OP)
Two things happened midway through the development of Morrowind: Zenimax was formed as a holding company for Bethesda Softworks, and Todd Howard took the helm following the departure of Daggerfall's core dev team. Part of the reason Morrowind holds such a distinguished position in the history of the Elder Scrolls is that it doesn't entirely employ Todd Howard's design philosophy nor Ted Peterson's and Julian LeFay's, and instead ended up being a novel amalgamation of both. By the time Oblivion rolled around, Todd Howard had firmly established the direction of the series going forward, and the rest is history.

>>11831254
You can definitely break the game if you want to, but you would go out of your way to do so, you don't do it accidentally.

>>11831720
and virtually everybody who reaches a certain point in the game, and isn't retarded, can see the possibilities to break the game and goes for at least one of them

>>11831720
I agree with this more than >>11831254 though it's too subjective: For every "gamebreaking player" I've seen, I'll also see as many get funneled by character generation and hitchance.

>>11831720
Even if you never do anything but pump one attack skill you'll get an ebony weapon from somewhere and just blow away everything you hit. Everyone feels broken empowered at some point and it's probably almost all by the time you are partway through the MQ and you're like maybe I am a demigod actually.

>>11831720
>you would go out of your way to do so
As far as I know the cheesiest stuff is Alchemy and Enchanting, and I never played those skills.

>>11831783
>Even if you never do anything but pump one attack skill you'll get an ebony weapon from somewhere and just blow away everything you hit
Not everything, and I still think that's more natural and different than breaking the game through potions, enchanting, or things like resisting the 100% blind from the speedy boots.

>>11831783
The game plays way, way better if you keep the difficulty slider at 2x or 3x your current level. Once you make your first constant effect enchantment, put the slider at 100 and leave it there. Dramatically more enjoyable and everything in the base game still gets melted. Expansions put up a lot more of a fight, especially werewolves. At 100 difficulty those fuckers hit HARD.

>>11831797
I've played MW every way imaginable at this point, I'm just talking about a baseline MW experience of some teenage boy playing it on xbox in 2003 or something, I think virtually everyone does feel broken at some point. And then yeah they go to the sewers of mournhold and a goblin fucks their mouth and eyeholes

>>11831797
Yeah the normal difficulty is meant to allow all characters and casuals to manage. Optimized characters or experienced players in general need increased difficulty.

>>11831723
It's fun to break the game sometimes, because there's so many different ways to do it, but you don't NEED to.

>>11830782
How are world items in Morrowind not more interactable than in Daggerfall?

>>11824978
t. never programmed anything

>>11832058
but everyone who really played morrowind a lot eventually did

>>11832346
Yeah, because it's occasionally fun to do, and there's dozens and dozens of different character builds you can do, but nothing necessitates breaking the game, and it's never just lying there right in the open, you gotta work towards it.
Alchemy for instance can let you break the game over your knees like you're fucking Bane, but that doesn't mean that just lugging around a mortar & pestle is gonna make you a god, you need to know what to do with it, and it involves a grind.

>>11832432
>it's never just lying there right in the open
nigger the very first time I saw you could make your own spells i saw how broken it could become

>>11830832
>also unlike skyrim this game wasn't designed for 3000 hours of gameplay
What makes you think Skyrim was designed for that? Do you think Todd knew it would become an industry behemoth thoroughly modded and still played 14+ years later... before it came out?

>>11832437
How long did it take you to achieve?

>>11832432
10/10 for reference!

Does anyone else like the sword swinging mechanics in Arena and Daggerfall? Holding your mouse and pulling it different directions to swing your weapon feels nice and intuitive, better than just pressing the button to swing it in some predetermined direction like most games.

>>11833115
Needs a homebrew port to Wii

>>11823767 (OP)
I don't know I'm more annoyed that I haven't had a new Elder Scrolls game for 14 years.

>>11833115
>Does anyone else like the sword swinging mechanics in Arena and Daggerfall?
Yeah, but I also like holding down and charging for an attack. I’m not a fan of Morrowind’s “always use best attack” but ironically I tend to use Daggerfall’s thrust the most because of it’s higher hit chance.

>>11833531
>I’m not a fan of Morrowind’s “always use best attack”
I never use that feature.

>>11832437
You are retarded.

>>11824363
>Genuine question for the "they consolized TES for Morrowind" posters, assuming they're sincere and not just underage zoomies trying to fit in.
Okay, I'll give a sincere reply.

It's just like the Dragon Age series. Origins was a PC FIRST game, but the (subpar) console ports outsold the PC version by a fuckton, so the sequels catered more to the console audience, to the point that m+kb controls were really horrid in Inquisition.

The same goes for Morrowind. The Xbox version was a straight port of the PC original, with some concessions. But it sold super well, so naturally in Oblivion they went for a much more gamepad friendly UI, just to provide an example, larger fonts as well for people sitting on their couch far way from the TV. The towns were all instanced via city walls because the consoles back then had much less RAM than a PC.

But I wouldn't say that the combat and RPG mechanics were a result of the "consolization", Bethesda just wanted to appeal to a bigger audience, each game of theirs is more streamlined than its predecessor, and this used to be a winning strategy for them all the way until Starfield which was streamlined so much it got really bland and shallow and pissed people the fuck off.

>>11835473
>Starfield which was streamlined so much it got really bland and shallow and pissed people the fuck off.
Seems like the issue was the absence of a handcrafted open world. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about streamlining.

>>11835473
>each game of theirs is more streamlined than its predecessor, and this used to be a winning strategy for them all the way until Starfield which was streamlined so much
Funny you say that, because Starfield had more RPG elements than Fallout 4. The issue with the game wasn't the character building so much as it was the *awful* world building, factions, story and loading screens. People put up with vanilla Skyrim because the world and the factions are cool. While Starfield's build system is better on paper, nobody gives a damn about the Settled Systems or about a space game where 'space' is five consecutive loading screens

>>11823826
>From the very start both Arena and DF were meant for casual PC gamers
Not as far as Arena and Daggerfall fans were concerned, which was probably anon's point.

>>11830814
depending on spell level and proficiency, low stamina increases failure chance drastically.

>>11824363
All the stuff that Morrowind babbies whine about in Daggerfall like the map being too big and too bland is not what people are talking about when they say Morrowind is consolized.
Morrowind has way less joinable guilds than Daggerfall. The reputation system is less complicated as there are less factions. Banking was removed as a system. Enemy language was removed as a system. Climbing was removed as a system. Knightly orders as a concept are replaced with Imperial Legion. The game is fundamentally more simple both in terms of design and writing, most exemplified by the fact that you can just skip 90% of the main quest, something you can't do in Daggerfall because even if you could just kill some quest giver to skip half the game, there's no quest giver you kill whose death would logically teleport you to Oblivion to end the game.
inb4 (and probably after) "Daggerfall language skills are useless." Orcish and Daedric trivialize half of the game, even in Vanilla.

>>11837535
>Morrowind has way less joinable guilds than Daggerfall
Whatever shall I do not being able to join literal copypasted "factions" with the exact same pool of generic quests whose sole difference is the generic name they're given. There's such a drastic difference between the Knights of the Dragon, the Knights of the Flame and the Knights of the Rose, they're definitely not the same faction at all!
>Enemy language was removed as a system
Daggerfall language skills are useless

>>11837679
They all have ties to different regions and factions. It's okay if you don't like role playing and this whole imagination thing is a bit too much for you. We have the Kirkbride games setup on the Xbox in the playroom.

>>11837535
I don't believe there's anyone who genuinely laments these losses, the way they were implemented in Daggerfall.

>>11837535
99% of that shit doesn't matter when none of it is handcrafted. The idea of starting a Daggerfall playthrough is ALWAYS far more interesting than actually playing it. It's proto-slop in it's purest form, a randomly generated world with only a handful of locations actually designed by the devs. The dungeons are a huge nonsensical spaghetti of the same corridors and rooms over and over again with zero care for how logical the place would've been when actually in use, the skills are all boring, there are no perks to gain, some are just misleading and nearly useless like the critical strike skill (instead of granting you a chance to deal extra damage, all it does is give you a CHANCE to slightly increase your CHANCE to hit the enemy). Some skills are just borderline cosmetic too like yes, every single goddamn language skill. You thought they'd allow you to talk to the corresponding creature? lmao no, it just gives you a miniscule chance that corresponding creature is passive when encountered which translates into you getting the first hit or just ignoring a grand total of three NPCs per playthrough at best. The overworld is a huge barren wasteland with no points of interest, there's no point in manually travelling around as it will take you hours of just pushing the forward key until you reach your destination, instead you will be fast travelling to every city and dungeon. It's a whole lot of absolute nothing.

>>11837535
>Morrowind more simple than Daggerfall in terms of writing
This is such horseshit and you know it.

>>11837692
>They all have ties to different regions
It's the exact same copypasted faction. The Knights of the Dragon, Flame and Rose being from Daggerfall, Anticlere and Wayrest doesn't magically make the factions themselves or the quests they each give you any more unique. They're all as generic copypasted as the rest. Their political affiliation is the exact same, their ranks are all the exact same, the skills you need to determine your rank are all the exact same, the advantages per rank are all the exact same, the quest type the Knightly Questers give you are all the exact same. There's zero difference. Nothing. Nada. They're as generic copypasted soulless as every single other quest in the game and to imply there was more thought or craft put into it than Morrowind is baffling
>We have the Kirkbride games setup on the Xbox in the playroom
Damn. You sound mad

>>11837535
>Morrowind has way less joinable guilds than Daggerfall.
Daggerfall has lots of guilds and factions and they're all so fucking interchangeable with each other.
All the factions in Morrowind are actually distinct from each other, instead of being interchangeable slop.

>Banking was removed as a system.
Was there an actual point to it besides kind of just cheating?

>Enemy language was removed as a system.
Wow, a system which wasn't really interesting or useful.

>Climbing was removed as a system.
An actual drawback, but it's not like you don't have jumping and flight.

>The game is fundamentally more simple both in terms of design and writing,
Jesus, lmao, you've gotta be bullshitting me. Yeah, tell me about the depth of and complexity of a game which is to 90% constructed out of Ad-Lib.

>most exemplified by the fact that you can just skip 90% of the main quest, something you can't do in Daggerfall because even if you could just kill some quest giver to skip half the game, there's no quest giver you kill whose death would logically teleport you to Oblivion to end the game.
That doesn't seem like a difference which matters, considering that virtually nobody would ever intuit skipping the whole mainquest, and most people who played the game, whether they completed it or not, are unaware of that possibility.

>inb4 (and probably after) "Daggerfall language skills are useless." Orcish and Daedric trivialize half of the game, even in Vanilla.
Assuming they actually would, how is that an argument in its favor?

>>11837692
>They all have ties to different regions and factions
Which doesn't really matter. The language system is a CONCEPT which is interesting, but is then implemented in a completely banal an underdeveloped manner.

>>11837719
He's mad as fuck.

>>11837709
>Some skills are just borderline cosmetic too like yes, every single goddamn language skill. You thought they'd allow you to talk to the corresponding creature? lmao no, it just gives you a miniscule chance that corresponding creature is passive when encountered which translates into you getting the first hit or just ignoring a grand total of three NPCs per playthrough at best.
Man, if only Morrowind had language skills like Daggerfall, then it would have been a good game. Damn.

>>11837994
>Assuming they actually would, how is that an argument in its favor?
Wouldn't this also contradict his prior point about how you can technically trivialize Morrowind's main quest? He's not very good at making his points.

>>11837709
The language skills are perhaps THE most disappointing lie about Daggerfall.

>Wooow, skills for different languages This game must have so much depth!
... and then it has ZERO use for any kind of roleplaying, it's not used for any speech or barter, no negotiations or skill checks anything, no, just a random chance for A FEW enemies to be neutral.
That's not an interesting or thoughtful implementation. The only way this sparks my imagination is picturing how something like that was implemented, like it was right before deadline and they hurriedly made the yet to be implemented language skills have any effect at all so that they could claim it as a usable skill in advertising.

>>11840285
>The language skills
are essentially.. a calm spell.

Fallout 4 did that shit better.

>>11840285
no different than speech or mercantile in morrowind. quit bitching, dont be such a schmootz

>>11840359
It's actually extremely different, niggerfaggot.
Speechcraft and Personality affects Disposition, and further your chances for succeeding at Persuasion (Intimidate, Admire, Taunt, Bribe), and Disposition affects a number of quest interactions (some quests require you to get a high enough Disposition towards you), and whether or not some NPCs want to talk to you about some things.

For Disposition making the difference over a neutral NPC being hostile towards you, it can, but there'd likely have to be multiple of the following factors in play at the same time for this to happen:
>different race from them and having your weapon out will both automatically decrease Disposition
>you have an extremely shitty Personality attribute
>you try repeatedly to Admire them, but you continuously fail and they hate it, eventually they'll anger from this
>you have negative Reputation (ergo you're a wanted outlaw with a price on your head)
>you're in an opposing faction
This can further affect their Fight value, a hidden metric which determines how likely an NPC is to turn hostile. Things increasing an NPC's Fight value would be if they caught you committing theft or trespassing (particularly against themselves), or they saw you attack someone else neutral. If you wanted to pacify a hostile or likely to be hostile NPC or creature without violence, you would use a Calm spell.

Mercantile in Morrwoind is used for Barter, affecting prices for Trading (as well as Bargaining when Trading), and prices for services (Repair, Training, Enchanting, Travel, Spellcrafting, buying Spells). Mercantile also affects your chances of success for Bribing. Needless to say, Disposition also affects pricing for these things, thus Personality, Speechraft, Reputation, etc, would also affect these things.

>>11840515
tl;dr
Elder Scrolls games always have useless skills, Morrowind is no exception

>>11840359
Daggerfall has multiple different language skills, but rather than these skills giving you opportunities for special quests or trading, or advantages for faction ranks (which would actually be interesting), the ONLY thing which a language skill does in Daggerfall is the chance that SOME of the NPCs in the game won't be hostile towards you.

They don't do ANYTHING else but this.

>>11840519
Literally wrong, every skill in Morrowind has a utility.

>>11840524
yeah athletics is so important

>>11837994
>Was there an actual point to it besides kind of just cheating?
Gold had weight so it could be a fun and believable mechanic to manage through letters of credit. The big thing was using banks to manage real estate, but like much of Daggerfall it's another mile-wide, inch-deep puddle: You don't get anything as unique as a Morrowind stronghold.

>>11840529
Athletics affects speed of running and swimming, which adds up together with the Speed attribute, and movement speed overall is both affected by how much you're carrying, the weight of what you're wearing, your character's own weight.

The faster you move, the less fatigue you use for the given distance.
Your total speed also affects vertical reach for jumping, separately from Acrobatics as a skill itself (Athletics and Acrobatics together both determine vertical reach for jumps).

>>11840557
Crazy realistic graphics for 2002

>>11840562
I think these were more like mockups but most of the assets and overall style is still there.

>>11840571
>>11840557
That's the beta UI I'm pretty sure.

>>11840557
>but like much of Daggerfall it's another mile-wide, inch-deep puddle
Makes me wonder what Daggerfall could have been like if they didn't have their planned budget and development time cut in half, they clearly had a lot of ambitious ideas on what they wanted the game to be, but not the means to realize it well.

>>11840603
Df unity has lots of great mods that help make it more hand crafted.

>>11840571
Looks like morrowind with higher contrast. Darker shading on models

>>11840560
>speed of running and swimming
yeah the boots of blinding speed don't make that skill totally meaningless or anything.
lmfao. schmootz

You can tell this board is dead because of this constant rhetoric about Arena and Daggerfall being "obsolete" or whatever. Posts like those make me question why people even come here.

>>11840650
They come here to feel like they are part of a particular paradigm. They don't understand that they stick out like sore thumbs and end up causing more trouble than they're worth. They need to learn to lurk moar, very easy to wait until you're ready to post than to make yourself out to be a newfag retard.

>>11840637
>boots of blinding speed
Something that not everyone came across as organically as I’m sure you did, and even then not everyone realized their utility when picked up.

>>11840675
they're directly in the player's path, schmootz

>>11840682
Depends on how you play.

>>11840697
still, it's not some wild supposition that a player comes across them organically

>>11840675
I thought they were a fun cursed item, can make trips faster if you know the path. Then later I learned online that people exploit the blindness out of them and I thought
>that's lame

>>11840715
Those that happened to come across Pemenie might still not have realized their full potential as the previous post mentioned. Some could have only used them for out-of-combat travel meaning athletics still had a benefit.

>>11840730
if you play as a Breton you dont even get blinded. that's not an exploit

>>11840637
An item that's only useful if you're an Orc or you use a trick/exploit. Nevermind that you only find them in one place.
I never really bothered with Boots Of Blinding Speed regardless because the amount of speed they add is too high, particularly as you level up and grow your Speed attribute.

>>11840715
It's not, but it's also a very easy supposition to make that the player won't bother with them after trying them for a bit. Even if they're an Orc and resist some of the Blindness, it still makes it harder to see, particularly at night and indoors, and even if you know the exploit, you might find them too fast for comfort.

They're hardly useless, but they're not gonna be everyone's obvious choice, either.

>>11840794
There's racial bonuses letting you see better, but there's also a trick to let you bypass the blindness effect entirely.

>>11840794
Yeah if you play as a specific race your screen only dims by 50% no big deal

>>11840796
quit pretending you played the game, schmootz

>>11840798
what, resist 100 on self for 1 second then put the boots on?
that's not an exploit, that's just playing the game. don't be such a schmootz

>>11840807
>blind increases accuracy
What I'm just playing the game

>>11840807
Another easy supposition to make is that someone could easily think that Resist Magicka wouldn't prevent Blindness from a Constant Effect item, or if it did, that it would then also block Fortify Speed.
Another assumption which is VERY easy to make is that regardless, this would run out after the first second has passed, which is why I never ever bothered to try this in all the years I've played the game.

Knowing that, I'm not anymore inclined to do it, because I don't want THAT much speed.

>>11840807
You think that's intended behavior?

>>11840807
You can also avoid the Mortal Wound effect from Keening and Sunder if you switch weapons really quickly, is that not an exploit?

>>11840821
it's in the game, schmootz. you reckon they were just drunk when they cobbled it together and put in all kinds of shit they didnt mean to?

>>11840821
>You think that's intended behavior?
I could more easily believe that the blindness calculation where it adds hit chance was intentional, so not really.

>>11840650
I wouldn't call Daggerfall "obsolete," the main quest is alright, it's just mostly worse than Morrowind, and I'm tired of people bullshitting about Daggerfall's shortcomings and pretending that they ackshually make it a better game, using that to shit on Morrowind.

A massive worldmap with thousands of dungeons, quests, and towns sounds VERY compelling, until you're forced to be fucking honest and admit that it's 99% stocked with interchangeable Ad-libbed content which gets old after a few hours, and which doesn't change from region to region.
Just the same, half a dozen different language skills sounds like a great and immersive feature, until you once again stop lying and admit that the language skills are actually used for almost nothing at all and are a waste of your time.
If you want to sell people on trying out Daggerfall, then you're doing the game a huge disservice by writing checks which it will never be able to cash.

Morrowind without patching or OpenMW has a lot of bugs, but even when unpatched, it still has extremely solid game and world design.
Meanwhile, of the biggest aspects of Daggerfall Unity is that it lets you smooth over a bunch of pretty fucking glaring problems inherent to the game's design, which is why it's what gets played most.

>>11840856
So if something wasn't caught and fixed in a patch, it's intended behavior?
That logic flies for speedrunning, I guess.

>>11840874
>resist magic resists magic
>blind is magic
>gets resisted
whoaaaa the game is like tooootallly brooooken man

>>11840856
Do you also think that you were meant to use Keening and Sunder without the Wraithguard, in spite of making such a big deal about it?

>>11840883
>for 1 second
>except that it lasts indefinitely
>but only against Constant Effect items
Sounds entirely deliberate, not at all like a typical bug or oversight.

>>11840883
>I'm not cheating!

>>11840890
>nooooo you can't use spells to do exactly what they're supposed to do that's cheating!

>>11840889
>spell activates during resistance period
>application of effect is thus resisted
whoooaaaa like this tooootaly makes nnoooo seeennnssseee maaaaan

>>11840889
>Sounds entirely deliberate, not at all like a typical bug or oversight.
Reminds me of the 1 magnitude levitate spell that kills cliff racers.

>>11840898
>Constant Effect isn't actually constant

This shit is like rules lawyering in DND.

>>11840908
>spell's activation is resisted
>it's effect therefore doesn't activate
whoooaaaaa this makes no seeeeense

>>11840925
Yet Fortify Speed does?

>>11840650
Oh right were supposed to pretend "old game good" so that we are not like those other gamers.

Some old games suck, so what.

>>11840925
>constant effect isn't constant

I was playing Magic the Gathering one time. I tried to play an enchantment, you know, those spells that hang around on the board and have a constant effect. Anyway, I play my enchantment, and you know what this fucking cheater at the table does? he plays a "counterspell' in response, and he tells me my enchantment has to go to the graveyard, even though it has a constant effect! I was like what the fuck? and he tried to tell me the spell activation got "countered" so it doesn't get to take effect. Can you believe that shit? Fucking exploiting faggot.

>>11840927
>It's unintended!
>even though the rules are different for beneficial vs. detrimental spell effects
you just torched your entire argument

>>11840929
>grr why does the effect that didnt get to take effect not have any effect???

>anon, i am a hot dark elf woman with aids
>but don't worry, i have a potion
>resist disease 100 pts for 1 second
Would you?

>>11840965
As long as you started penetrating within that second, it SHOULD work, right?

>>11840971
It should.. it should..

>>11840938
Why isn't the effect constantly applying though?

>>11840965
This is how Dagoth Ur makes Corprus Stalkers btw.

>>11840910
I was immediately thinking of MTG judging like >>11840930
I could equate it to being able to "counterspell" someone equipping an artifact: You can counter the casting of the equipment but not someone equipping it.

it makes more sense for constant effects to be dispelled and cast when use effects to be resisted

>>11840993
It only makes sense if the 1 second of resistance actually only resists the blindness for 1 second, because that's intuitive, compared to abstract rules lawyering which would make rocks fall in a boardgame setting.

This would also create an incentive to try to create a longer lasting effect to let you use a powerful cursed item like this for longer, maybe trading some percentage for longer duration (in which case it would be yet more appealing for Orc players).

>>11841018
>It only makes sense if the 1 second of resistance actually only resists the blindness for 1 second
what? no, that's retarded.

>>11824105
Build usually doesn't matter too much, so long as you can reliably hit something more than 50% of the time, though being able to levitate is usually a must for me.
I normally stop the main quest at the Hortator section - just an annoying part for me personally, thiugh once you're through that you're basically at the end. I actually just beat the game a few nights ago, first time ever using spear or marksman as primary skills, very fun actually, keen to go to Mournhold now.

>>11841068
No, the 1sec of resistance overcoming constant effect indefinitely is retarded, it's completely inconsistent with the stated duration.

>>11829731
the only use of grabbing items in TES games is to steal from merchants

>>11841774
In Oblivion you can serve NPCs a meal of poisoned apples. Did you know you can move and set those bear traps in Skyrim?

Morrowind was literally proto-Skyrim. It's pretty clearly the blueprint for future consolized Bethesda slop to the point I never understood this supposed huge gap ES cucks perceive between Morrowind and the subsequent games (but that's probably because I grew up playing proper CRPG's). At least Oblivion has some fun quests and the NPC's actually walk around and have routines and stuff(it only took Bethesda 25 years to catch up to Ultima VII in that regard lol), but the Bethesda console trilogy is basically the same game rehashed 3 times with cosmetic differences.

Why are Morrowind fans so annoying? I honestly can't think of any other RPG fandom as obnoxious as Morrowind fans.

They don't even like playing Morrowind; they just like criticizing the other TES games.
If they really liked playing Morrowind, they'd talk about the stuff they enjoy in Morrowind.
But no, all they do is complaining about Daggerfall, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

My generation got Morrowind in middle school and Oblivion in high school.
We liked Morrowind, it was cool, but we absolutely loved Oblivion.
I clearly remember playing Oblivion for the first time with my high school buddies and thinking "holy shit, this is the best game ever, I never thought a videogame could be this cool".
It was one of the first games with real-time 3D graphics that looked passable, instead of the shitty 3D from the late 1990s and early 2000s.

By the way: yes, Oblivion took advantage of the popularity of the Lord of the Rings movies (and Skyrim also got lucky, being released months after the first season of Game of Thrones).
But Morrowind did the same thing with their world inspired by the Stars Wars and Dune.
And sure it looks cool and unique and exotic and shit, but the "Star Wars alien" world of Morrowind feels out of place in Tamriel.
Arena and Daggerfall were set in a medieval fantasy world similar to LOTR and GOT, so Oblivion and Skyrim feel natural, while Morrowind broke that in order to take advantage of the hype of the Star Wars prequel movies.

>>11841774
>he doesn't have fun arranging stuff on the shelves of his player owned homes to showcase the spoils of his adventures

>11841813 (You)
>11841945 (You)
Who hurt these two shitposters?

Why would you play literally any other race?

>>11842229
>decorating in oblivion
A fun little minigame. Takes a lot of skill.

>>11844137
Havok was probably the part I disliked most going from Morrowind to Oblivion, I couldn't just plop items down to decorate my house like before, I had to be VERY careful and methodical, a tiny misstep would fuck up everything.

I hated it more in Skyrim though, as some cool items you'd find had bugs which would make them disappear from the game if you left them lying out.
That's not a fun bug, Todd, that was a quest item, now I couldn't continue that fucking quest.
Not even Oblivion did that, decorating might be fidgety, but your loot wouldn't just evaporate for no reason, if it wasn't exactly where you left it, you'd still always find it on the floor somewhere.

>>11844178
>Havok was probably the part I disliked most going from Morrowind to Oblivion
>decorate house
Bro what. Fireballing enemies had never been so fun before. Exploding skeletons. Luring bandits into swinging traps.

You have some unenjoyer mindset going on.

>>11844202
That was the fun part, I liked sending shit flying that way.
But one of the parts I really liked in Morrowind was decorating my house with my treasure from my journeys, and while did do the same in Oblivion, (and Fallout 3 and New Vegas), it was never AS fun, because you were always at the mercy of Havok's whims for doing it, you could never do it with the same precision.

>>11844275
Pretty sure there were weapon/armor stands in Oblivion/Skyrim exactly for this reason.

>>11844275
>But one of the parts I really liked in Morrowind was decorating my house
TES has to do a million things right, and one is a house decorator simulator.

If you really care about it, I think there's mods for item placement.

>>11844178
>That's not a fun bug, Todd, that was a quest item, now I couldn't continue that fucking quest
You can't drop quest items

There is no reason for anyone to play Morrowind in the year of our lord 2025.
>the broken mechanics are actually a casual filter
Shut the fuck up. I like games that are playable.

>>11844552
You can drop the dragon masks, which are used for a quest.

>>11844562
Funneled.