What made Sonic so difficult to adapt to 3D

>>11827864 (OP)
Fastness. Boomers fainted and seizured from Super Mario 64, what do you think would happen if you unleashed Sonic on them?

Absolutely nothing other than a retarded commitment to gimmicks for the sake of variety. All they ever needed to do was make a Sonic game where every level played like City Escape. No other characters, no faggy digging and fishing flying around, just speeding through vertical levels with alternate routes and opportunities for cool tricks. That is literally all they ever needed to do. Unfortunately this would prevent several million obese furfags from gooning to Tails' double-butthole or equivelant, so they scrapped the idea and made two games filled with garbage.

>>11827864 (OP)
not sure I mean just check out spark the electric jester (not retro) but it does the whole 3d sonic formula right.

This question always seems so out of touch. Anyone who’s played SA1/2 knows the speed gameplay is the one thing they did right.

>>11827925
It's janky, shallow, scripted garbage.

>>11827864 (OP)
The attitude. Look you weren't there so I'll explain.
Sonic was crafted to encapsulate all that was radical, tubular and gnarly of his era. 3D games did not exist back then and so were not developed with representing culture in mind. By the time 3D games came around, the zeitgeist had moved on and the 3D sonic was using a game style unsuitable to capture a cultural zeitgeist that that was no longer relevant. Basically a double fail.
To confirm this, consider Mario. The Italian working man gimmick is already massively uncool and the creaking 3D engine did not have to stretch itself to represent that at all. Square, flat polygons are perfect for what Mario represents. The fact that 3D mario games also destroyed his legacy is a whole other topic.

The Sonic level design philosophy does not work for a 3d environment, has this not been stated before?

>>11827936
...but enough about the non-sonic levels

>>11827864 (OP)
Prototype Windy Valley perfectly captured the feeling of "2D Sonic in 3D" but they straight up scrapped it because the Dreamcast couldn't run it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YhS4nhs8fM

By the time console hardware could actually adapt 2D Sonic to 3D, Sonic Team was already beyond washed up and just couldn't bother going back to their original ideas when making the levels ultra linear and semi automatic was much easier

If you want an honest answer, Sonic as a momentum-based platforming game in 2D forced them to automate a lot of things when they tried to implement similar concepts in 3D and make the game feel a lot less fluid. It went from being a platformer to more of a straight action game and that shift in focus also deprived it of the strengths it had as a platforming series while subjecting it to gameplay concepts it wasn't as well-suited for.

Add to that Sonic Team's rather consistent difficulty implementing cooperative camera controls and a tendency for bugs.

speed and early 3D jankness don't get along very well

>>11827864 (OP)
They just kept fucking up the movement. Even by Sonic Heroes, they still hadn't fully figured out how to make movement feel properly and satisfyingly affected by your speed, with the best they were able to figure out being to turn everything to ice once you speed up.

Maybe it was just tougher for their setup to rapidly hone in on good movement in a way that wouldn't break the rest of their collision and such, but who knows.

>>11827864 (OP)
Speed doesn't translate to 3d unless it's on rails because of the freedom of movement

>>11827968
Not an argument, SM64 has a completely different level philosophy than previous 2d entries linear levels yet no one had a problem with it

>>11828067
>no one had a problem with it
There's an autist itt bitching about how 3d mario ruined Mario's legacy. He's a retard but mario wasn't universally loved like OOT when it came out. Shadows of the empire was probably a more acclaimed game in early 3d n64.
>>11827951
Your sperging about 3d mario is a /v/ convo bit you're also close with time having past by sonic. If Sonic adventure would have come out with a relative performance on Saturn it would have been been as acclaimed as Mario 64, which also wasn't perfect. Waiting until the late 5th early 6th was too late in time for the middle schoolers playing 64 aged into high school and waited for games like gta3. The 5th was the time to release a 3d sonic, by the 6th gen teens were wanting adult games. Sunshine and the GC in general were too kid focused for the market, I still remember double dash as one of the most fun but least popular kart games.

>>11827864 (OP)
>HD texture pack

stop trying to modernize a dreamcast game, picrel looks like shit

>>11827889
>why isn't this game a carbon copy of every game before it? change is le bad!!
this attitude is why sonic games have been consistently terrible since yuji naka left sega.
you have your squeaky clean boardroom approved designs and classic sonic shoehorned in every game since generations and yet you still can't stop complaining about the ONLY games that actually try to innovate the formula.

seriously, what is it with sonic fans being so allergic to anything that deviates ever so slightly from the mega drive games?

>>11828298
>He's a retard but mario wasn't universally loved like OOT when it came out.
bullshit, it was universally loved (but there are always exceptions to everything)

Sonic Adventure had it pretty much nailed. Sega's obsession with gimmicks and trying to be everything to everyone made them reinvent the wheel over and over. MULTIPLE times they've gotten it right only to abandon the good concepts in the very next game.
Then you have this >>11828356
retard...

>>11827968
GO GO GO RAIL GRIND SPEED BOOST SPEED BOOST HOMING ATTACK wasn't the main level design philosophy of Sonic until the Sonic Adventure 2. The classic games were about precise platforming and exploration with brief spurts of speed for spectacle.
What about that doesn't translate to 3d well?

>>11827968
It’s the opposite. Sonic’s gameplay works better in 3D since you can actually see what’s ahead of you and react accordingly. You’re able to run a lot faster in Sonic Adventure than in the Genesis games and this is why.

>>11828348
Those are the default textures, dummy

>>11827936
I’ve heard the same bitching towards the originals.

>>11827864 (OP)
What other reminds you of going fast other than rollercoaster rides and jets?

Hard to not get bored with the plain old "go fast, jump here, then repeat" level designs.

>>11828592
you're either retarded or trolling but here's your proof anyway

>>11828356
>seriously, what is it with sonic fans being so allergic to anything that deviates ever so slightly from the mega drive games?
because every game that deviated from them fucking sucks.

>>11828589
>you're able to run faster in 3D than in 2D

>>11827864 (OP)
SA 1 and 2 were perfect transitions to 3D. Only zoomers think they weren't because they are told to by youtubers and streamers

>>11829556
Yep. Top speed in SA1 is remarkably faster than in Sonic 2 or 3. The latter would be unplayable at the same speed.

>>11827864 (OP)
SEGA's incompetence, it could be done no problem.

>>11827864 (OP)
it wasn't difficult at all. like >>11827889 & >>11828552 said it best they got it right with the sonic segments in SA1 & SA2 but (either due to creative starvation or fatigue of working on sonic) sonic team just had to shove a ton of gimmicks that nobody asked for or wanted in the first place.

>>11828356
>seriously, what is it with sonic fans being so allergic to anything that deviates ever so slightly from the mega drive games?
because those gimmicks you loved and grew up with almost killed the franchise and are the reason why sonic was treated like a joke nowadays.

>inb4 b-but muh variety!
sonic would've been much better off as a franchise if sega had just let sonic team make more non-sonic games instead of letting them shoehorn what are basically tech demos, verticle slices or whatever you wanna call stealth pitches for games they really wanted to make instead of sonic.

>>11827889
>no faggy digging and fishing flying around
The fishing and treasure hunting I get, but you take issue with the fucking Tails stages, too? They played more like the Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic stages than the SA1 Sonic Stages did.

>>11827889
>Unfortunately this would prevent several million obese furfags from gooning to Tails' double-butthole or equivelant
Thank you for making me spit out my cereal

>>11827951
>By the time 3D games came around, the zeitgeist had moved on
Bro what? Attitude was cool until just after 9/11, when everything switched to patriotism and counter-patriotic angst. SA2 came out right at the tail end of that zeitgeist but it was still relevant.

>>11832858
sigh. I'm tired of you zoomer faggots larping like you were there

>>11832858
"Attitude" went on a lot later than 9/11, there were plenty of edgy games that came out thereafter. If anything, it was on the upswing for several years. You had shit like Gears of War that featured roided out dudebros chainsawing and curbstomping aliens while screaming epithets, and that was in 2006. Hell
you had stuff like Duke Nukem Forever and Bulletstorm releasing into the early 2010s, to say nothing of other media like the plethora of action movies like Shoot Em Up, Transporter, The Condemned and other peak white man kino. Attitude died a slow death after the widespread adoption of social media and identity politics, and all but ceased to exist in popular media after 2016 when masculinity became analogous to "social toxicity" and every media corporation started producing products aimed solely at faggots and lesbian women.

>>11828058
Racing games and/or driving simulators/games would like a word with you, kiddo

>>11827864 (OP)
There was a conflict with the low skill on rails sections that sonic is known for and the slow really bad platforming sections. It seemed to me SEGA never had the developer skill to make a really good platforming level and sonic himself controlled like shit with giant floaty jumps. They needed to get the physics and controls down and then some decent levels to challenge the player but they never did and part of the reason is they thought sonic fans would hate more platforming so they just kept going with the boring roller coaster shit that pretty much plays it self.

>>11827907
>boost level design
>forced fighting rooms
Spark is just Heroes but with only the speed character which is far from Sonic "done right."

3D platformers are kinda bad in general, its not all Sonic's fault

>>11827864 (OP)
They just didn't do a great job. That's it. There's no magic answer. Sonic 2 was great because of skill and dedication. It takes work to make a fun game. Lots of repetition and vision. When a company ships on unfun game its either because the devs lacked vision or they didn't work hard enough

>>11832620
Why didn't they just make a 3D Sonic for the Saturn? Were they stupid?

>>11834193
Mario 64 is the greatest game of all time, so you're wrong

>>11834317
Sonic 2 had major glitches in versions dating back to around a week before final build. It had an incredibly short development period, was difficult for developers due to different cultures being forced together (and most American-made work being scrapped as a result) and was cobbled together after the original vision for the game (and many zones considered for it) was scrapped. This happened again with Sonic 3, which instead had an absurd deadline due to the McDonalds promotion and development time being lost due to the SVP concept being scrapped, which led to the prototype dating back to around a month before final being about as finished as what you'd usually see half a year before final build.

>>11835595
Well fuck I guess the devs were just gods then

>>11828067
Yoshi's Island had a similar design philosophy.

>>11827968
>The Sonic level design philosophy does not work for a 3d environment
2D Sonic stages are just vertically-layered skate parks.
I wonder if that concept could work in 3D? You could maybe make a whole genre out of it.

>>11827882
Boomers weren't playing 3D games, it was all Gen X and Millennials.

>>11827864 (OP)
Unironically, I feel the level to level structure and game length are some of the reasons why Sega went in on the alternative styles
>Sonic Adventure has the different gameplay modes (although Gamma is the only 'long' alternative style) - there's emblems but they don't do anything in the OG.
>Adventure 2 changed it so that the "act 1/2" structure was split between the Hero and Dark stories. At least they throw in more challenges.
>Heroes makes you play the game four times with long levels, presumably Sega were becoming self-concious about length at this point, on top of collecting the Chaos Emeralds
I can only speak for Colors, but what I've seen of the boost games feels like they have the opposite problem where, without the alternate characters/gameplay styles to fluff it up, it just relies on missions/more obvious padding like how Colors makes you play through what are clearly side-acts (though I guess multiple styles didn't help Forces).

>>11827864 (OP)
>What made Sonic so difficult to adapt to 3D
>1. limited tech
It was understandably difficult to create a 3D game around a speedy character whose central gimmick is rolling around on slopes in expansive environments for something like the Saturn, and even their initial concepts made for the Dreamcast had to be scrapped and scaled back a bit.
>2. mediocre devs
Post-millennium Sonic Team are not the greatest when it comes to game design, and their continued existence is merely a result of being able to coast on Sonic's widespread appeal and dedicated fanbase. They had some okay ideas with their first attempts at 3D gameplay (e.g., SA1 and 2), but seem to have only learned the wrong lessons from those games and proceeded to make worse and worse titles after that point.

>>11827864 (OP)
The fact they left it to Sega of Japan, who are terrible at making games. I have no doubt Sonic X-treme would have mogged the Adventure games if it had been allowed to finish.

>>11828058
Mario 64 speed runners would beg to differ

>>11827864 (OP)
>>11827968
Sonic can work in 3D, SEGAs just retarded

>>11827864 (OP)
I'd say Sonic himself transitioned pretty well besides some filler stuff. It's that Sega never had confidence past Adventure 2 to actually sit down and figure what they really wanted to do with him, and combine that with key talent leaving and a certain game that's almost 20 years old having a catastrophic failure (despite making its money back), and Sonic Team and Sega simply never stabilized again.

>>11827864 (OP)
Nothing. The designers just made an OK game with adventure, but never improved on it. They just kept with it's unfun stagnant formula.

If they made a physics-based, ball-rolling, action/adventure platformer that had additional multiplayer racing levels to it, sonic wouldn't've failed.

>>11827889
>variety is...........LE BAD

>>11835379
>Were they stupid?
Very much so.

>>11827864 (OP)
360 movement

>>11836675
I think you are talking to a zoomer who thinks anyone older than him is a boomer

>>11827864 (OP)
They got it nearly perfect with Adventure 2: Battle. Some of the Knuckles and Rouge levels made me want to jump off a bridge though.

>>11835379
people at STI weren’t sure how to do a fully functional 3D game and Japanese Sonic Team was focused on Nights. The americans tried with Sonic X-Treme with no success

>>11834190
boost is unironically the return to form sonic needed. the problem is...

1.) classicfags hate it because they don't understand the time trial/speedrunning aspect of taking shortcuts and getting the fastest times so just meme "LE BOOST 2 WIN LOL!".

2.) adventurefags hate it because sega memory holed all of fluff they grew up with and at the end of the day nobody but them actually liked.

>>11836756
>I can only speak for Colors, but what I've seen of the boost games feels like they have the opposite problem where, without the alternate characters/gameplay styles to fluff it up, it just relies on missions/more obvious padding like how Colors makes you play through what are clearly side-acts (though I guess multiple styles didn't help Forces).
unleashed made you playthrough werehog segments, generations (both versions) had you play side missions, forces had you cycle through sonic and the create-a-character but the levels were pretty samey to the point where they re-use one level three times.

>>11827864 (OP)
Momentum feels wrong. Sonic just slips around with retarded animations. And when you do get going fast it gets glitchy.

The vast majority of the classic games was precise platforming with one or two spurts of speed per level.
Sonic Adventure 2 dumbed it down too much with speed boosts and homing attack chains
they never got it right again

>>11827864 (OP)
It was a ROUGH transition, to be frank.