People hate on WW but I always felt like Sunshine was the bigger letdown, too gimmicky and linear.

>>11832262 (OP)
>too gimmicky and linear
no its not

>>11832265
FLUUD is a gimmick and lots of Shines are locked behind gimmicky bullshit episodes
It's more linear and feels smaller than it's prequel

The best thing about Sunshine is Delfino Plaza but Peach Castle is more iconic

>>11832269
its not too gimmicky and its not too linear

>linear is bad because... it just is, okay!?
Can't this meme die already?

>>11832262 (OP)
I think it's a bigger letdown because it's clearly unfinished and even though FLUDD is charming in it's own right, it's a gimmick crutch to mask their bad level design and whenever the game takes it away for the "challenge" levels the game feels awful.

>>11832276
t. contrarian retard
/vr/ is the new /v/

>>11832324
Defending Mario Sunshine is not the contrarian position, you need to learn a new buzzword to vocalize your gripes.

>>11832331
Yes it is

>>11832336

>>11832331
NTA but he's kinda right, sunshine is liked for being a mario game, but its a pretty shitty one in a lot of ways. There's a reason FLUDD didn't become a staple in the series, MK64DS came out like 2 years later, and they reverted course back to NSMB and UR MR GAY respectively. Its not that its a bad game, just that its a low point for anyone who wasn't 8 when it came out.

>>11832343
>MK64DS
meant SM64DS

>>11832343
>sunshine is liked
>Its not that its a bad game
so by this logic defending a good and liked game makes me a contrarian? What do you people think contrarian means?

>>11832262 (OP)
this is correct. Sunshine was hot liquid ass

>>11832342
Wow bros I can't believe nintendo power gave it a 10/10. I mean there's shameless and there is thinking sunshine is a 10/10

Sunshine was based

>>11832353
well the definition is literally "a person who takes a contrary position or attitude" which means that it needs something to go off of. You're trying to apply it to either "everyone ever" or "people who were children at the time," likely because you fall under one of those two. For people who actually played the games and watched the series evolve, it was a low point at a time when people desperately wanted a Mario 64 2 instead. I'm sorry you weren't there and only have today's nostalgia focused perspectives to go off of. Liking the game when it came out was absolutely a contrarian take if you needed to shave in the mornings.

>>11832353
It's a good game but it's a 7/10 good game when every other 3d Mario is a 9/10 or even a 10/10

>>11832353
Don't play dumb moving the goal post, retard. Sunshine is linear and gimmicky, but a contrarian retard is saying is not (you [perhaps]). Nobody is saying is not liked or a bad game, don't play fucking dumb.

Then again: /vr/ is the new /v/.

>>11832373
its not too linear and its not too gimmicky because the game was very successful and well liked in the past and today. I posted proof, I could post attachment rate and pure sales numbers too. My position is not contrarian. If the game was too gimmicky and linear it would not be a successful and well liked game.

>>11832383
>journos liked it!
And? How about people that were not paid? The general sentiment was always that it was a step-down from 64 and worse than the non retro sequels

What's with Mario Sunshine and making /vr/ go into an autistic flamewar against itself? It's always this game or the Sonic Adventure series.

>>11832390
are you moving the goalposts now? I didnt make any comments on how it compares to the other games in the series I just stated, very clearly, that its not too gimmicky and its not too linear. And I posted evidence as to why. Heres a chart that shows it as the 3rd most sold game on the system.

>>11832262 (OP)
WW haters is usually surface level.
Sunshine haters is people that have actually played the game.

>>11832383
>If the game was too gimmicky and linear it would not be a successful and well liked game.
there are literally dozens of counter examples against this claim

>>11832403
False equivalency? What the fuck does having a high score has to do with no being linear or gimmicky?
It's the most gimmicky and linear 3d Mario

>>11832403
>not too gimmicky
The game took "run and jump man" and gave him a water gun and a fucking jetpack. Said water gun and jetpack were promptly discarded from the gameplay loop in the next entry and on. I'm not autistic enough to know of any appearances he makes in the newest games (if any) but he sure as fuck was not incorporated into the core gameplay loop identity.

>>11832383
Man, I'm getting tired of retards like you here in /vr/. Good riddance.

>>11832421
All the mario games have gimmicks, identifying the existence of them doesnt imply that the games are "too gimmicky".

>>11832440
What's 64 gimmick? Scarce 20 seconds power ups?

>>11832440
Are you claiming that FLUDD wasn't a major focus in the gameplay loop of the game? Or that he didn't supersede existing gameplay mechanics that previous and future titles would share? He always runs, he always jumps. Sometimes he punches and kicks, sometimes he can wall jump, but he leaves his talking enema backpack at the door because it fucked with the core formula of what players wanted.

>>11832456
>of what players wanted
do you want me to post the reviews and the sales numbers again? You seem to be the contrarian that didnt want something fresh and fun. Games in a series dont have to be identical and Sunshine proved it.

Ignore that kind of retard: Those bots only want you to engage with them, is futile to discuss wth them; avoid wasting time and energy, or else you may end up like a retard.

>>11832262 (OP)
Yeah, but the Zelda series had higher highs and Sunshine is at least fun in some parts

>>11832262 (OP)
Sunshine is closer to what I wanted out of a 3D Mario game than what I got out of a 3D Zelda game with Wind Waker.

>>11832421
>>11832456
Might as well claim that Galaxy and Odyssey were gimmicky failures because planetoids and Cappy (presumably) didn't come back in future games. Just because a game is centered around a new mechanic doesn't mean that has to become a staple going forward.

>>11832262 (OP)
>but it's not the same as before!!
Imagine how stagnant gaming would be if these autists had a say
>this ocarina thing is a stupid gimmick!!

I'd take the linear Sunshine that is fun and a challenge rather than Odyssey that is open and braindead easy.

sunshine seems to really be a flagrant violation of miyamoto's usual gameplay first philosophy. the internal logic and set story progression had to have clashed with the design of the actual platforming gameplay. I personally appreciated that attention to detail but I can recognize that it's questionable in the context of a mario game.

Is gimmicky because of FLUDD. Is linear since you're forced to stick with the sprite you chose instead of freely collecting stars like in Super Mario 64.

And it’s frustrating as hell, Super Mario 64 and Galaxy and 2 are a blast to 100%, but Sunshine gets tedious with those dogshit blue coins.

It’s not a bad game, but it’s not great either, just mediocre. I grew up with a GameCube, and back then, I’d rather play Sly Cooper or Blinx than Sunshine.

>>11832368
>Sunshine was based

On a much better game, yeah

>>11832343
>There's a reason FLUDD didn't become a staple in the series
Because he wasn't supposed to be some next step in Mario's move set. It was specifically for one game. As much as people complain that Nintendo just makes the same game over and over again they actually do try to bring something new that separates it from the previous one even if it's just for one game, otherwise they'd just make more Mario levels and keep the 64 gameplay untouched.

>>11832324
>/vr/ is the new /v/
Has been since August 2020

>>11832262 (OP)
I always said 64 was my favorite, but on my recent playthroughs I actually found I was having more fun with sunshine. I think mostly due to the increased difficulty and more hidden things to find. even if a lot of its padding there is a lot to do and find in sunshine. also the controls are better, I feel like overall its the best and snappiest 3d mario controls even if theres no long jump. and of course the music and art style is so incredibly kino. 64 is still the better overall designed game but sunshine is a close second for me for second best mario, utterly mogs and rapes galaxies/3dworld/odyssey which are also great games.

>>11832262 (OP)
Sunshine is not just a let down, it's the worst video game I've ever had the displeasure of playing.

>sunshine is le bad
I just cannot see it
Not even when I squint
Its a very nice game on all fronts

>>11834338
2000s tropical goodness

I never understood all the hate for Sunshine. It has literally the same kind of mission structure as 64. The gameplay as a whole is pretty much 64 but expanded upon.

>>11833206
Who said anything about failures? Gimmicks can be a good thing when done well. Indeed they can be what sets a game apart from the rest in the series. But they're still gimmicks.

>>11834339
beaches exist in good games too

>>11834360
-have to complete each shine in linear sequence
-3 shines in each level are red coins
-multiple gimmick shit in each level
-random bullshit with water pack
-random bullshit without water pack

Sunshine is just so inconsistently awful it's ridiculous.

>>11833206
Sunshine is dogshit precisely because the main gimmick sucks. A slow as molasses jetpack that can only be used once for no reason. It would be the same as not being able to pull out the paraglider in BotW multiple times. Whoever worked on Sunshine needs fired. Absolutely dogshit

>>11832262 (OP)
I just don't think the one thing Mario needed was a very shitty jetpack

>>11833280
>galaxy and 2 are a blast to 100%
>trickster comets that disappear and reappear for no reason
>actual comets are bullshit padding like do the same stage in x amount of time or do the same thing but dont get hit
>have to find comet medals hidden in the stage to unlock the tedious objective
>AND THEN go find all the green stars which are just comet medals x3
>do everything all over again but as luigi this time

id much rather 100% sunshine or even odyssey then do that fucking bullshit again

>>11834416
it just extra content for those who want it, it makes so much more sense to have luigi and go for green stars, than it does to blast yourself onto a roof where yoshi gives you 99 lives despite the game being over

>>11834437
Actual brainlet take. What's over is just the tutorial. The 99 lives are for fully experimenting with the moveset without worries and truly master the game.

>>11832262 (OP)
they are both unfinished games that were rushed to release because gamecube had zero third party support

>>11834616
Remove the stupid water jetpack and cleaning simulator shit and use that development time to make an actual SM64 2

>>11832269
>It's more linear and feels smaller than it's prequel
If you're talking about Super Mario 64, that's a predecessor.
Prequels are MADE LATER than the original but are earlier chronologically.
If it was actually MADE EARLIER, its a predecessor.

>>11832295
I love Sunshine, but I always disliked games like Crash for being linear.

I grew up on Mario 64 and Tooie, so that gave me a different attitude toward linear games than I probably would have had growing up with 2D games.

I used to think Rayman 3 sucked for being Linear. By 12 year old me logic, Vexx should be a better game but I'm playing it for the very first time and Rayman 3 for the first time in 20 years and I gotta say Rayman 3 feels buttery smooth and Vexx feels like a clunkfest aping Jak, Rayman, Kazooie and Mario 64.

>>11832331
My genuine opinion that zoomers will shit on is that Galaxy sucks and is linear and the oceans are uglier than the ocean in Sunshine. Many galaxy enemies look like they belong on a chinese smartphone game.

>>11832262 (OP)
Is there anyone who honestly thinks this was better than Super Mario 64 DS?

>>11832342
>>11832360
I'm genuinely curious what the LOWEST score Nintendo ever gave one of their own games on Nintendo Power was and why?

>>11832415
>there are literally dozens of counter examples against this claim
Pls share?

>>11834859
They gave Pokemon Red and Blue a 7.2

>>11832450
>What's 64 gimmick? Scarce 20 seconds power ups?
How much better or worse would the game be if the power ups stayed until you completed the level or held down button for 2 seconds to turn them off?

>>11833226
>sunshine seems to really be a flagrant violation of miyamoto's usual gameplay first philosophy. the internal logic and set story progression had to have clashed with the design of the actual platforming gameplay.
Please explain

>>11834870
>They gave Pokemon Red and Blue a 7.2
Why would they dare?

Are they really bad?

>>11834851
>goes from nonsenical complains like "too linear" to dogshit takes like "le clunky"
fuck this board, seriously, fuck all of you.

>>11834858
>was it better than mario 64 with shittier controls, shittier physics and forced character switching
they are around the same quality really

>>11834881
Why am I not allowed to point out clunky controls?

Sunshine's world is leagues cooler and more convincing than Galaxy's
All that other gripes are second to the game world for me

>>11834880
Probably dumb American reviewer can't into rpgs

>>11834854
after playing them back to back yeah galaxy looks legitimately worse than sunshine. especially the water. there are some nice looking areas in galaxy but for the most part its just soulless planetoid obstacle courses, where as sunshine has a coherent, unique and beautifully realized artstyle. odyssey looks absolutely soulless as well (seriously why do people cream over new donk city its fucking completely out of place and theres nothing interesting about being in a big city for the millionth time), but at least mario has a dynamic and fun moveset again.

if sunshine had way less blue coins and more non filler shines, a couple more stages, and had all shines count towards completion like 64 did, then itd be the best 3d mario hands down. I dont get the complaints about fludd at all because every spray nozzle is fun to use and the levels are designed around them, the only real gripe is not being able to switch between all of them at once which was just dumb.

>>11834858
literally every single 3d mario is a lot better than 64 ds. its not just the objectively shit controls but also terrible character swap mechanics that make the game less fun. theres zero reason to use anyone besides luigi for every star that doesnt explicitly require a different character, which just feels like a chore, and also using luigi makes an easy game downright trivial.

>>11834873
it would make the game worse. the sense of urgency to use the powerup before it runs out is a good thing.

>>11834794
How dare they try something new rather than do more of the same.

>>11835035
>new =/= good
And as if NEW levels with NEW enemies don't count as new

>>11834616
Not an excuse, Sakurai made a masterpiece in 1 year, why couldn't Miyamoto and Ounuma do the same?

>>11835765
Wait what masterpiece?

>>11832269
Prequel doesn't mean "game that released prior," it means "game that released later but whose story chronologically takes place before a game that released prior."

>>11835790
Melee, now that's how you do a follow up, double dash was superior in every way to mk64 too

>>11835852
Oh. I never cared much for it.

>>11832262 (OP)
7/10 game with beautiful colors at times especially the water

>>11832262 (OP)
Girls, girls relax. You're both disappointing and under cooked.

Low effort shitposts like these are gimmicky and repetitive

>>11835852
>worse in every way to mk64

FTFY

>>11836027
MK64 fucking sucks compared to Double Dash, the series might as well have started with DD

My first game was mk64 btw

>>11836002
Are you refering to the people itt or the games themselves?

I will genuinely never understand the linear vs nonlinear argument when it comes to games like this.

Does it really bring Mario 64 fans such overwhelming joy when they get a red coin star instead of the star thats in a box somewhere for the mission they're on? And having to beat Shadow Mario in every level vs just getting 75 of any Star to unlock the last stage really doesn't matter to me either, if you like the game you're probably going to play every level anyway. If you don't like the game that's fine, but why play it at all then? Is being able to skip around few levels going to make you suddenly like it?

I'm really not trying to be facetious here, someone please explain it to me what is so amazing and game changing about being able to get stars out of order. I like both games but this has never been something that's made even an iota of a difference to me. It's not like it's entirely unjustified in Sunshine either, most missions have unique assets and layouts for each level. I have the same opinion about Zelda games too, being able to do dungeons in a different order does not make the game better for me.

>>11836071
It's about playing how I want to play instead of being forced to do shit

>>11836071
It’s not just having to do all of them in order, it’s the fact that the value of every 8th episode shine and every other shine is reduced to nothing. There is no reason to get blue coins, or any shines hidden in the hub world unless you are going for 100%, which most people aren’t up for.

>>11836080
Can't the same thing be said of every star in Mario 64 thats left over after you get 75 though? Like I said if you do like the game I feel like you'd want to just do them all anyway so this really doesn't seem like an inherent negative to me. The hate for blue coins has never really made sense to me either, they're literally just a secondary collectible. You don't see anyone crying about like fucking Jinjos in Banjo Kazooie or something lol. I think some better way to track them would be nice but overall they're completely harmless.

>>11836071
>I will genuinely never understand the linear vs nonlinear argument
It's autists who devoted their lives to these games

I don't even know this star order thing you guys are on about

>>11836114
Mario 64 has several different missions active in a level at once while Sunshine only has 1 at a time. Mario 64 requires you to get 75 of any star in the game while Sunshine makes you beat up to the 7th mission in each level. Since only 1 mission is active in a level at a time this means you have to do all 7 missions in the order they're presented and this is what some people are upset about.

>>11836147
I see. Bad for speedrunning? As a kid I always kept changing levels, exploring the isle and shit.

>>11836169
Speedrunning has unironically warped peoples minds, especially when it comes to Mario 64. I swear you can't even discuss the game without someone bringing it up. It's as if people forget you can and probably will just play the game like a normal person. Whether a game is good or bad for speedrunning has no effect on my or 99% of other peoples personal enjoyment of it.

>>11836189
I agree. And it's not just speedrunning, it's the powergaming, minmaxing online guide stuff too.

Both Sunshine and Wind Waker own. Stay seething.

>>11836209
I love Sunshine but Wind Waker fucking blows. Twilight Princess is the real Gamecube Zelda.

>>11836218
>Twilight Princess is the real Gamecube Zelda.
Way better on Wii.

>>11836218
True
>>11836226
True

>>11836226
>TP
>better on Wii
o i am laffin. it's literally missing features on top of having multiple noticeable bugs and a retarded mirrored world.

I hate it when we fight like this

>>11836231
>it's literally missing features
Like what? It's the same game but with pointer controls that make using the bow and the double-clawshots extremely fun.
>multiple noticeable bugs
I never noticed any.
>retarded mirrored world
Not a big fan of this, either, nor right-handed Link, but I'm willing to make these concessions for those pointer controls.

>>11836226
>>11836229
its shocking how /vr/ posters want so desperately to talk about non /vr/ games. Hounding for remakes, desperately wanting to play good games on worse handhelds for some sick reason.

>>11836242
>Like what? It's the same game but with pointer controls that make using the bow and the double-clawshots extremely fun.
And one more item slot

>>11836242
>Like what?
- can't control the camera
- can't manually backflip off epona
- can't charge spin attacks
- can't use the gale boomerang without stopping in place first
among other things.
>pointer controls
waggle fucking sucks and if you need pointer controls to play a zelda game then i suggest you git gud

>>11836259
>can't charge spin attacks
Yeah you can do it without charging. Much better

>>11836262
you can do both charged spin attacks and quickspins on GC, and you can even charge them while riding epona. less features isn't "much better" you retarded fag

>>11836259
Pointer controls aren't waggle.

>>11836271
Have fun with your fewer items slots and superfluous features, gaycuber

>>11836281
>being able to control the fucking camera and perform additional attacks are "superfluous features"
cope levels over 9000. also the game doesn't have fewer item slots, it works differently on Wii vs GC because on GC you get two dedicated buttons to instantly use items, but on Wii you map items to the dpad and then have to press them to assign them to the B button and then press the button to use them, meaning Wii ackshually only have one real item slot.

>>11836286
And Wii controls are great. Sorry you're stuck on gaycube, baby boy

>>11836291
>no argument
>sorry you have the better and more expensive version of the game btw
lol

>>11836293
>more expensive
Explains why you have to defend your purchase

>>11836291
>Sorry you're stuck on gaycube, baby boy
post a video of you playing the "superior" version of the game, you waggling alone in your bedroom will sure show me how badass and not gay you are!

>>11836296
>defend your purchase
wouldn't that apply more to the poorfag with the yoga mom version of the game? if you like waggle that's great, but don't go around spreading lies man, the wii version is shit.

>>11836259
You've inspired me, I'll try out the Gamecube version. I only ever played it on Wii and assumed it was identical except for the pointer aiming and the mirrored world.

>>11836298
>>11836303
I'm sorry this makes you so mad, but it's better on Wii.

>>11836310
>it's better because I say so, even though it's identical outside of having fewer features and worse controls
okay bro

>>11836308
if you liked TP on wii but wished it had traditional OoT-style controls, then you'll love it. being able to move the camera freely, use items instantly without constantly toggling them on the dpad etc. just feels right, the wii version always felt like a nuisance to control. also no annoying fucking erroneous navi cursor on the screen all the time.

>>11836310
are you u madding in 2025? jesus christ how pathetic

>let's mirror the world for the wii
>every character in the game is now left-handed except link, the sun rises and sets in the wrong directions, and they didn't even update every reference to direction (such as a character saying go east when you need to go west) to reflect the fucked up bizzaro world mirroring
Anything else aside, this really grates on me. Sorry but my autism is way too strong to let that slide.

>>11832262 (OP)
i never owned sunshine as a kid but i rented it a few times and i was obsessed with fludd. i thought that shit was so cool man.

>>11836320
It really was the laziest possible solution. How hard would it have been to just mirror Link's model? Flipping the entire world because you want Link to be right-handed is a bizarre shortcut.

>>11836325
>just mirror Link's model
It would probably require mirroring much more than that.

But back to Sunshine.

>>11836325
>wii: repurposed gamecube with new controls
>wii TP: repurposed gamecube game with new controls
It's fitting, really. They already had a big marquee title baking on the cube, so they just made a retarded 11th hour change and turned it into a Wii launch title knowing everybody would be too busy soifacing over "look, you can swing le remote like a sword... and link swings his sword" to care about trivial things like the world being completely fucking retarded

so Mario Sunshine is so fucking awful, we have to pivot to talking about the legend of Zelda. pedantic version differences, even.

>>11836438
OP mentioned zelda to begin with so I don't know why this is a surprising turn of events

>>11836438
Sunshine would have been perfect on the Wii

>>11836920
who knows, maybe it would be perfect on N64 or the Switch. the only thing that could make the game perfect were to start from the ground up and remake it differently than it is now, because it's no that it's far from perfect, it's that it's god awful.

>>11836920
Fuck it probably would have been

>>11836027
YWNBAW

>>11832262 (OP)
Replaying. I didn't remember it was this SOUL. Vacation on a tropical island, perfect setting to showcase the new generation of graphics.

I saw an open window, and got flashbacks from childhood: shoot water in and get a coin.

>>11840214
>I saw an open window, and got flashbacks from childhood: shoot water in and get a coin.
Isn't it a trip? I love that feeling. I revisited a few of these old games for the first time in years and the intuition/deep gut memory telling me where to go and what to do was on another level.

>>11841484
It's kind of bittersweet, the memories coming from so far away. I must have spent months on this game as a kid, and the Isle seemed like a wonderful place.

I don't get the linear/gimmicky criticism. The fourth level has opened up, and I feel like there has been enough choice on where to go. FLUDD seems like an expansion of abilities, and it doesn't feel like the game forces it too hard.

Maybe people felt offended coming from Mario 64 and being handed a crutch. And then having to admit they sometimes need it lol

I'll keep playing for a while, Sunshine is a comfy one

sunshine is mostly amazing BUT
>lily pad
>lava boat
>pachinko
>bowser jr balloons
>watermelon fest

can all go fucking die in a fire, fuck you

>good because nostalgia
No, still bad actually.

>>11842769
This.

>>11834360
Nintendo fans don't wanna admit they're not as hardcore as their grandpas bragged to be.
Miyamoto made it hard just to cater to them, but his son got frustrated.

>>11836226
>Mirror World

>>11836250
I agree, in fact, they should let the irony drop on the heads of these fags and remake the board.
/vr/ is just emulating /v/ at this rate and mods are just anticipated to make 7th gen a permitted retro topic.

The consequences of acceleration.

sunshine's development was so fucked that Nintendo split off another section of EAD solely for developing jungle beat and later 3d Mario games

>>11845375
What went wrong?

>>11834416
>do everything all over again but as luigi this time

You don't have to.

>>11845490
you do if you want to 100% the game, which is what that post was referring to.

>>11845494
Why would you do it if there's no reward for doing so? Why would you make yourself go through something you don't like just to see a 100% number?

>>11845463
a lot of it is a mystery, but I feel like it says a lot that after Sunshine was released, EAD Tokyo was founded and started grabbing talent from Square, SEGA and Koei and this was the team specifically that went to to Jungle Beat, the Galaxy 1 and 2, 3D World, Odyssey

>>11845534
to add to this, a number of the Sunshine team were the first people on the EAD Tokyo team.
There must have been some sort of conflict or logistical issue at Nintendo that caused the split and move.

>>11845504
You seem to be lost in the conversation. The person you're responding to is pointing out why getting 100% in the Galaxy games sucks and is pointless. Having to replay everything as Luigi to get 100% is the reason he would rather just not bother with 100% in Galaxy.

I found Sunshine fun enough to at least finish, but I can't say the same about WW.
I can see Sunshine being the bigger "failure" though, since there are much higher expectations for Mario than Zelda (at least pre-BotW).

>>11845681
>higher expectations for Mario than Zelda (at least pre-BotW).
we forgetting ocarina?

>>11834918
Americans invented RPG's, and it was the japanese that dumbed them down and turned them into jarpigs, so....Kinda not making sense there, dumbfaggot troon-weeb.

>>11834397
Super Mario Bros is dogshit precisely because the main gimmick sucks. A short as shit jump that can only be used once for no reason. It would be the same as not being able to float in Kirby's Adventure multiple times. Whoever worked on Super Mario Bros. needs fired (sic). Absolutely dogshit

>>11847603
>trying to convince random japanese RPG fans that they're troons on a japanese-inspired imageboard
Yep found the groomer. Why do they do this?

>>11847774
It's how they procreate.

>>11847603
The Japanese give more shits about Ultima and Wizardry than Americans, because even back then rpgs were too hard for the vast majority of americans that weren't massive dnd nerds