It feels like the difficulty shift from Classic to Metroidvania is understated. I mean, everyone knows that they're harder games, no question about it, but I don't think enough people talk about how the exact way the old games were difficult helped sell the experience. All the crazy patterns and pickups hidden around the levels, it really made it feel like you had to exploit everything to win as a lone dude against the insurmountable legions of evil, and the vast majority of this exploitation is intended instead of any form of cheesing.

I think Bloodlines did it best too. You get the refinements of the 16-bit era, and stuff like the fake blocks are slightly more visible without always being eyecatching, but when you're playing as Morris, the game still comes down to just being a dude with a whip, no fancy 8-way snapping or item crashes and backflips neither.

>>11870401 (OP)
>I don't think enough people talk about how the exact way the old games were difficult helped sell the experience
Because that too gets old eventually, after a couple of games. Yeah it's refreshing to revisit, of course.

Just one of those "re-examining old game" things. Like people going back to older zelda formula and suddenly thinking it's the bees knees, AFTER it was shaken up (and that got old)

>>11870421
>Because that too gets old eventually, after a couple of games
Well it's not to say that more games need to take from the formula. It's more appreciating that it was developed to be hard with intention beyond being difficult for difficulty's sake, and how that helped sell the premise.

I mean, on the other end of things: many Metroidvania games still operate within the premise that the protagonist is someone standing up against insurmountable odds, heading into Dracula's Castle alone and often inexperienced/unproven, but the difficulty of those scenarios don't really help sell the idea. That's not to say that they should've been like Classicvania, or that the design choices that made Classicvania games hard and engaging would've worked for those ones as well; just a statement that most Metroidvania games weren't able to find the thing that would've worked for them in that regard while Classicvania did, and appreciating that for what it was.

If Metroidvanias were difficulty like the classic games they would simply be a huge pain in the ass to play. They focus on exploration not action. Imagine playing SotN and every small enemy just deletes you like in the last couple of stages in X68k. Symphony and the likes were simply weren't built around that kind of difficulty

>>11870456
>It's more appreciating that it was developed to be hard with intention beyond being difficult for difficulty's sake, and how that helped sell the premise.
That's a common opinion. I don't know why you try to make it seem like some unique perspective.

>>11870469
>I don't know why you try to make it seem like some unique perspective
I'm not. I'm just saying it's understated. It's fun to talk about and can always be stated more.

>>11870485
To each their own. You can rewatch AVGN and egoraptor's videos (iirc) and read their comments echoing the same sentiments. Or dark souls bros "hard but fair" hype

>>11870401 (OP)
They already tried this with the MSX one, which is harder than every 16bit entry, but people disliked.
A shame. For me it even with flaws, it was a great game and had the best balance between challenge and exploring

>>11870401 (OP)
>but I don't think enough people talk about how the exact way the old games were difficult helped sell the experience.

For the average player these days, and even among "retro" circles there are a lot of people for whom the concept of difficulty is completely alien, to the point that they can NOT comprehend that things used to be different and that challenge was the entire point of video games, so they create all kinds of copes like "rentals", "artificial difficulty", "devs didn't know what they were doing" etc etc It doesn't help that re-releases catter to this mindset by adding """QoL""" like rewind/savestate/press a button to win.

>>11870598
It really was a different time. Most games you'd pick up were difficult. You didn't get a chance to own a lot of games, maybe ten or a bit more by the end of a consoles life cycle from birthdays and Christmas, and if you were old enough to make some money then whatever you saved up go buy. Took you a good while to beat these games, then if you beat them some people would push their prowess even more not using continues or not even dying, or playing on a higher difficulty if the game provided it. That went hand in hand with how few games you'd have so that would stretch the game out more.

In modern times there's just so many games that people can access. Even discounting free emulation, video games are pretty cheap to buy in bulk so you can quickly amass a ton of them. Then with consumer sensibilities shifting over the decades they think a lot of things older games did were bad design or flaws. From booting the player to the title screen when they run out of continues thus losing progress in the game to games demanding some amount of memorization from the player.

It's silly that they think a video game should be theoretically possible to beat on your first play through. That's more of a game that doesn't put enough resistance towards the player than being "fair".

>>11870598
>a lot of people for whom the concept of difficulty is completely alien
>>11870784
Guys.. souls games have been mainstream popular for like 15 years

>>11870827
Souls games =/= classic games.

>>11870843
>For the average player these days
>and even among "retro" circles there are a lot of people for whom the concept of difficulty is completely alien
Doubt the concept of difficulty is alien to anyone except mobile gaming moms

>>11870827
Dark Souls only proves the point because it's seen as the exception to the norm. Secondly I haven't played any of those Souls game but they look like a joke

>>11870598
>For the average player these days, and even among "retro" circles there are a lot of people for whom the concept of difficulty is completely alien
this is obviously not true. you need to word your posts less arrogantly and elaborate more so the things you say describe reality.

I recently found out the protag is actually based off a character from the original Dracula story

>>11870456
I think you're forgetting most metroidvanias have an optional hard mode after you complete the game, oftentimes with a Belmont who doesn't power ramp like the main character.

>>11870464
It's not possible to make a game with stat scaling through grinding infinite enemies as hard as one without.

>>11870464
you'd definitely need to spread out the difficulty for sure but there still should be the occasional sense of danger, the castle should feel hazardous. symphony is too easy even taking the above into account.

>>11870401 (OP)
https://www.theotakuauthority.com/fan-developer-bringing-castlevania-bloodlines-to-the-snes/

>>11870827
>>11870843
Play Castlevania 64 instead

>>11870921
>symphony is too easy
Didn't they design the game on the princible that a competent player can beat it without taking a hit?

>>11870784
>It's silly that they think a video game should be theoretically possible to beat on your first play through. That's more of a game that doesn't put enough resistance towards the player than being "fair".
Being tough and being theorically beatable on your first try aren't mutually exclusive. That's like saying the only way to make a difficult riddle is to make it unsolvable.

>>11870881
>the protag is actually based off a character from the original Dracula story
He's not based off Quincey Morris from the original Dracula story, he's the SON of Quincey Morris. The character of Quincey exists in the Castlevania lore as well, similarly dying in the fight against Dracula.

>>11871075
Julius use magical bowie’s sword

>>11870401 (OP)
>It feels like the difficulty shift from Classic to Metroidvania is understated
???
How is it understated, is this yet another zoomer take? You can literally buy healing items in the Metroidvanias and brute force your way through.
I still love those games but I have to refrain from any of the broken things to keep enjoying the gameplay.

>>11871265
>How is it understated, is this yet another zoomer take
Hey buddy, no need to be insecure. This is a safe space for discussion.

>>11871325
You need to end your irony posts with /s brother, there's so many retards now.

>>11870926
One of my yearly replays.

>>11870401 (OP)
>It feels like the difficulty shift from Classic to Metroidvania is understated
SotN and HoD are anti castlevania, you could even argue they're anti gaming, they're glorified assets collections.

>>11870464
You realize that in the metroidvania name you have metroid, from the game Metroid on NES? That would focus on exploration and nuke you for taking it lightly? SotN isn't about exploration, SotN is a castle tour, what you're doing in it is tourism, it's only missing a camera mode to take pictures.

>>11870464
I agree. I remember replaying Fusion and hitting Yakuza, and thinking, man, imagine if this game WASN'T more linear than Super, and I had just wandered around for a 30 minute stretch yielding God knows what, and having all of that get deleted. I wouldn't be a happy camper.

>>11870827
Souls rollingslop isn't challenging at all newfriend.

>>11870869
>Secondly I haven't played any of those Souls game but they look like a joke
I have played the Dark Souls of Souls games (that being Dark Souls itself) and although its difficulty is not "a joke" for a player new to it, the game is certainly not truly difficult, since it provides infinite continues and a few generous stats-grinding systems for you to abuse as much as you like with no serious penalty. So yeah it's nowhere remotely close to NES Battletoads on the difficulty scale.

>>11870934
>without taking a hit?
I doubt that, Symphony is easy not because the enemies are all easily avoidable but because Alucard is super tanky and taking hits isn't super meaningful. More likely they meant a competent player could beat it without dying.

>>11871865
> le game is bad cause internet told me I only should play le hardcore games or my manliness will be declined
Aha mhm...

>>11870874
When was the last time reviewers complained that a game was too easy?

>>11870401 (OP)
>Bloodlines
Isn't it a bit weird how all the other classic games were their own story, pretty much unrelated to the actual Dracula novel, with Dracula himself and his castle being pretty out of line with what the book describes, but then Bloodlines is pretty much a sequel to the novel?

>>11871865
Metroid's only hard until you get the screw attack or the varia suit, after that it's a cakewalk until Mother Brain. In SotN we have Galamoth instead, even though he is optional he is probably on par with the hardest classicvania fights

>>11870401 (OP)
Everyone knows that. We only give Symphony of the Night a pass because it's that fucking good, but everyone knows it's braindead easy. All of the games that came after are okay at best, but the series is basically over after that game

>>11872821
I'm a big fan of the novel. I also think the theory of that woman who claims Dracula is gay is the complete opposite of everything the book is about, it blows my mind.
But I really don't see how Bloodlines is the sequel to the book.

>>11872842
>In SotN we have Galamoth instead, even though he is optional he is probably on par with the hardest classicvania fights
Not even remotely close. Galamoth is actually quite easy by classicvania standards.

>>11872872
>We only give Symphony of the Night a pass because it's that fucking good
No, people give it a pass because graphics and music, without those, the fans wouldn't even look back at it, it's basically simon's quest all over.

>All of the games that came after are okay at best
With the exception of HoD, all the games that came after vastly improved SotN lack of direction..

>but the series is basically over after that game
This is a bad joke. Igarashi understood after HoD (everything wrong with SotN with none of the fancy glitter) that he was going in the wrong direction and course correction was required and the games started to get interesting to play again. Bloodstained is basically the continuation of Castlevania and the product of years of improving the metroidvania experience.

>>11872937
Gyahahaha, imagine being this guy.
>Dude they just like the graphics and the music
>and the funny voices... and the RPG elements... and the exploration... and Alucard as a character....
>But I swear that's all it is!
Pure copium

And Ninny handheld sequels are all inferior in different ways

>>11870464
>>11870912
>>11870921
That's exactly what Richter mode is though. Bro goes down in like 2 hits. Alucard is a supernatural being with magic powers and the main portion of the game reflects that accordingly.

>>11872927
I don't know maybe I felt that way because the rest of the game was ridiculously easy by comparison but Galamoth is still definitely far from being an easy boss even by classicvania standards

>>11873106
>Galamoth is still definitely far from being an easy boss even by classicvania standards
The batshift is enough to make the boss into a cakewalk.

>maybe I felt that way because the rest of the game was ridiculously easy
SotN is so fucking braindead since the balancing is nonexistent that Galamoth asking you to actually put a bit of effort into it makes it feel like a big deal.

>>11872947
>and the funny voices
>and Alucard as a character
Graphics and music are superficial layers, meme dub and alucard are even more superficial, they have nothing to do with the actual quality of the game and trying to pass SotN as the point where things cannot be improved is a fucking joke when the core experience is non existent due to devs not giving a damn about balancing (note that changing stats wouldn't even manage to get proper balancing to the game, for that, enemies patterns and level design would need to be completely revamped).

>the RPG elements
are utterly worthless, you can just use your fist and rely on luck to do critical hits and you can easily complete the game. This is all window dressing.

>the exploration
The "exploration" is equally worthless, Alucard is already too powerful without equipment, so enemies are just annoyances (which is why the valmanway is so popular as it allows the player to maul through them as if they were not even there). All you do is backtrack endlessly for key items, garbage.

>>11872109
That's true about its difficulty, but the fromsoft games have gotten both progressively harder mechanically and more commercially succesful, it seems, and the idea that magic, summons, grinding levels etc. means you didn't really engage with the challenge or beat it properly is extremely common among even otherwise normie gamers. I don't think Dark Souls' being relatively easy compared to classic games shows that challenge as a selling point and good thing is a dead mentality among consumers

>>11873203
>presentation has nothing to do with the quality of the game
This gameplay purism mentality is worthless. Men do not experience game mechanics directly or only, and nobody actually feels or thinks about what they play like that. Even if we did entertain this perspective, it would be useless for discussing metroidvania games since they're not made or played for the depth of their systems.

>>11873363
>presentation has nothing to do with the quality of the game
Indeed, which is why games from the NES era are still classics to this day.

>This gameplay purism mentality is worthless
I didn't mention "gameplay". Gameplay is worthless if your contents suck (and boy does SotN suck at that). And all the fancy superficial layers are nothing but that.

>it would be useless for discussing metroidvania games since they're not made or played for the depth of their systems
This is pure apologism to cover for devs who didn't take their jobs seriously. And you only need to look at the evolution of Igarashivania games to see how wrong you are.

>>11873438
>evolution
Yeah, I see it, and it's all tired rehashes, or aesthetics-first, or soulslike parry/dodge autism, or vibes-centered exploration. Only one I can remember focusing on base mechanics was ESα.

>>11872874
>Quincy Morris' descendant hunts down a woman trying to resurrect Dracula 20 years after the events of the original novel
The plot outline reads like a sequel to me.

>>11873363
>This gameplay purism mentality is worthless
And really weird for someone supposedly enthusiastic about video games.

>>11873203
>enemies patterns... would need to be completely revamped
>enemies are just annoyances
One of the funniest parts of SotN is how badly they botched basic enemy designs from the earlier games. Axe Armor is a good example. In Rondo, they're cute little Simon Says enemies. They throw mid, you stand and attack. They throw low, you crouch and attack. In SotN, your crouch is lower than the mid throw's hitbox, so the correct play is to always crouch. The skeletons are another. In Rondo, they throw their bones in front of themselves so you have to maneuver through the gaps. In SotN, they throw their bones directly at you, so you're basically guaranteed a dodge as long as you're moving towards them (which is what you usually want to be doing anyways). Not to mention the abundance of enemies with absolutely no mechanics or interesting movement that are just stunlocked to death.

They really are more like speedbumps than actual threats.

>>11872937
>Igarashi understood after HoD (everything wrong with SotN with none of the fancy glitter) that he was going in the wrong direction and course correction was required and the games started to get interesting to play again.
IGA actually didn't address shit, the games started getting better after HoD thanks to Curry picking up the slack with Aria and a few members from Konami Kobe joining in when making the DS games. https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=10431.0

>>11870464
OoE is pretty difficult.

>>11874612
Circle of the Moon also had its moments, helped out by the fact that you have a very basic Belmont moveset and most players will get basically none of the combo cards.

>>11871865
Metroid's difficulty comes from frequent platforming, bosses, and conserving your resources for those bosses by being good at the platforming as to not facetank or use up your missiles. If enemies were as aggressive as NES CV ones, it would be unfairly difficult. SotN and beyond are also way longer and have more mechanics. Having frequent death pits and health bar eaters would just be unbearable. You can't honestly tell me you'd want to play an Aria-sized game with CV1 moment-to-moment gameplay

I like nin sols.

>>11874773
>Metroid's difficulty comes from
hazards actually being hazardous, because metroid isn't tourism, metroid is real exploration.

>if enemies were as aggressive as NES CV ones, it would be
an interesting game.

>SotN and beyond are also way longer and have more mechanics
Which means that SotN should be proportionally more challenging. What happened is the opposite, SotN is LESS interesting to play than even the first Castlevenia.

>Having frequent death pits and health bar eaters would just be unbearable
That's where devs must figure what's the right balancing, the easiest example being putting a save spot next to a boss room.

>You can't honestly tell me you'd want to play an Aria-sized game with CV1 moment-to-moment gameplay
Sounds like Castlevenia 3, a solid contender to the podium for best akumajou games.

>>11875865
Most of this is personal preference and the last bit is outright wrong. CVIII is a roughly 1 hour game deathless. SotN and its successors are all significantly longer. Nobody except total nolifes would enjoy that level of second to second difficulty in a game so heavily reliant on exploration and backtracking. Being really hard isn't necessary, let alone the only way for a game to be good. I like Circle of the Moon, and its last few areas are pretty difficult. I'd have dropped the game if they were as hard as late-game areas in the NES titles because it would be total bullshit. Imagine losing half a III's worth of progress because you fucked up right before the next save room. That's not just going back to the start, that's losing everything you gained and having to backtrack through the same incredibly hard areas several times over

>>11876814
>CVIII is a roughly 1 hour game deathless
There's no mindless backtracking in castlevania 3. The volume of actual contents is similar.

>SotN and its successors are all significantly longer
Baaacktracking.

>Nobody except total nolifes would enjoy that level of second to second difficulty in a game so heavily reliant on exploration and backtracking
Pointing finger at players instead of the games, non argument and missing the point entirely.

>I'd have dropped the game if they were as hard as late-game areas in the NES titles
That's a you problem, not a game problem.

>Imagine losing half a III's worth of progress because you fucked up right before the next save room
This happens and players are humbled and learn to improve.

>>11874773
>You can't honestly tell me you'd want to play an Aria-sized game with CV1 moment-to-moment gameplay
I know I wouldn't. Good thing about classicvania is that they're bite sized. Good thing about metroidvania is that they're not.

>>11876946
No, there's outright more content in them even without backtracking, which also isn't inherently bad. This is your last (you) since you're insisting on being deliberately obtuse

Thinking about it, what's the deal with Metroidvanias and not having Belmonts. Only 3 of them have a whip user as the main character, and Juste is the only Belmont you play as in the main gamemode. If anything, that's already a huge cause for the disconnect

>>11877338
It might be harder to come up with a complex moveset around the Vampire Killer and the subweapons than it is to have a bunch of different weapons and spells. And by the time SOTN came out, Bloodlines had sort of cemented the Belmonts going away between Richter and Quincy Morris. Someone on SOTN's dev team had the idea of a Belmont fighting Dracula in 1999, but that ended up as the backstory for AoS years later.

I think you absolutely could build a Metroidvania around a Belmont, though. Feels like the whip alone could be used for a bunch of different fighting styles that aren't just slinging it forward like in every game.

>>11877552
>Feels like the whip alone could be used for a bunch of different fighting styles
I have a hunch that IV's waggle whipping could be turned into something more satisfying and effective

I might still go for fist weapons though. Or a big fucking sword. Or change it up as I go.

>>11875865
Metroidvanias are fun because you eventually end up becoming so OP that you can wreck everything in your path with nothing posing a challenge. This is essential because of all the backtracking so you have to make that part enjoyable and not tedious. You can make the bosses harder though, which the DS games did, especially Ecclesia.

>>11877971
>Metroidvanias are fun because you eventually end up becoming so OP that you can wreck everything in your path with nothing posing a challenge
That requires enemies to be actual threats in the first place.

>>11877552
>It might be harder to come up with a complex moveset around the Vampire Killer and the subweapons than it is to have a bunch of different weapons and spells.
I think HoD is a step in the right direction, what with the spells that change depending on your subweapon. On paper, it's better than the uber-collection of subweapons that is Aria of Sorrow, and the spells disconnected from everything else that is CotM. I think they just needed to better tune the spells to encourage subweapon variety, and maybe kick up the MP usage (or maybe even ditch MP altogether and make them item crashes) so you're not just using spells all the time instead of subweapons.

Besides, as far as Metroidvanias go, the upgrades that actually make a difference to gameplay aren't too different between the Whip games and the Arsenal games, and a lot of the weapons can actually end up feeling the same/put into a strict series of well-defined archetypes, within which most players usually just gravity to whatever sword lets attack and keep moving with the smallest amount of recovery anyways (without being outright short like the knives).

Not to mention, the whip is just a lot of fun. It's odd, because I'm sure if you actually looked at the attack data for some of the longer swords and such, it actually wouldn't be all that different. Heck, there was even Aria with the Whip Sword which basically was just that added sound effect and the more lingering attack on a sword, and it was fukken awesome. Any new fangames or hacks that use it would have an advantage through that alone, and I hope people pursue that now that we're entering an era where new and more involved SOTN hacks are on the horizon.