what is it about ikaruga that made it become the most mainstream shmup? it's not easier/more casual friendly than doj or garegga, so what exactly makes ikaruga special?

>>11883384 (OP)
That's a good question. Radiant Silvergun became extremely valuable on the secondhand market which increased the hype for the follow-up game.

>>11883384 (OP)
I dont know, but I've noticed it still has a lot of pull with the "im 26 and watch game design videos" crowd, and the "im 45 and own a Luigi hat" crowd
I'm a shmuptist and the game definitely deserves it; I think the gimmick is just way more approachable at a surface level than how most people perceive CAVE games or something. There's this stigma that bullet hells are all crazy hard and unbeatable, but Ikaruga sort of incidentally subverted this perception by telling people "you dont HAVE to dodge and you can still win!!" (Of course not true to 1cc normal or something)

>>11883384 (OP)
It actually got a Western release, unlike DOJ and Garegga. It didn't have a lot of competition, as it was one of the few good reasons to own a GameCube. It was also received favorable attention by Gamespot and IGN. It has a cool gimmick that sets it apart from other STGs which differentiate themselves in much more subtle ways. That cool gimmick also just so happens to make it immediately visually identifiable.

>>11883384 (OP)
It got an NA release. DOJ and Garegga didn't.

Ikaruga is the 3S of shmups. Casuals like it because it is visually appealing but it's not beginner friendly at all and basically forces you to rethink the fundamentals of the genre to get good at it

I thought it was an easy game until I saw some gameplay videos and realized that practically no one who likes Ikaruga is capable of playing Ikaruga...
Maybe one of the reasons it's so famous, besides of course having a gimmick that normal people like by default, is that it's also pretty cheap to buy digitally. The regional price on Steam in my country is like $3 or something, while several Japanese shmups try to sell themselves here for fucking $40, sometimes $60!

Amid the tumult and turmoil of battle, there may be seeming disorder and yet no real disorder at all

GameCube release is always the answer

>>11883384 (OP)
>it's not easier/more casual friendly than doj or garegga
It definitely is more fair than these games. DOJ and Garegga are quarter munchers who have hidden mechanics to fuck the player over. Ikaruga is hard but very fair. There are no bullshit pixel dodgings in the game, the more you memorize, the better you get at it. There are also no bullshit moments like dying with full bomb stock in the game. It's a much more pleasant experience than the usual Cave, Psikyo or Raizing quarter muncher.

>>11883658
You are very, very dumb.

>>11883662
Post your scores or stfu. In contrary to you I actually played these games. Even at hard mode, Ikaruga is very fair.
It'
It's mostly the rank mechanics and dying with bombs what makes games like DOJ or Garegga so frustrating to play. They just like to fuck the player hard by raising the rank and taking all your bombs.

>>11883679
You're the guy who didn't know you could lower rank in DOJ by bombing mid-hyper from a week or two ago, aren't you?

>>11883697
Nice strawmanning.

DOJ and Garegga are dodging games. Ikaruga is a puzzle game with lots of memorization instead. If you like memorizing stuff, you have very good chances to clear Ikaruga.

>>11883710
Yeah, that's what I thought :^)

>>11883476
>unlike DOJ
>which had an official localization around 2012
Lurk moar

>>11883697
You can do WHAT.

Okay, trying this right now

>>11883384 (OP)
People are nuts for any early DC releases.

>>11883742
>iOS

>>11883745
If you want to really bully the first loop, take notes from here.
https://youtu.be/YQwtu6EIh7Y?t=31811

>>11883751
lots of familiar players in this vid. I'm technically known in the shmups community but I'm not really an active participant so it's cool to see this. thanks for posting!

more on topic: I really dislike the direction cave took with ddp for doj and the further games, so the opportunity to abuse the fuck out of it is very welcomed.

>>11883384 (OP)
Bot thread. It's obvious why, isn't it? Because of the color swap gimmick. Now go make another Half-Life 2 thread

Ikaruga is a carefully crafted masterpiece of videogame design. It may not be the best shmup, but its whole design is genius. It's so unique and everything in it fits together perfectly. Only Treasure could make a game like this.

Treasure was a highly esteemed developer at the time and there actually were console ports early on.

>>11883993
>Because of the color swap gimmick
Dimahoo also has a color swap gimmick and wasn't nearly as successfull.

What made Ikaruga successfull is that its whole design is highly unique and perfectly executed.

>>11884283
~~Dima what~~ Dima who? Nigga, Ikaruga was actually released in the west, and really it was only popular in that small time period in the early 00s after it came out here

>>11883384 (OP)
Good game that was accessible in the west.

>>11883384 (OP)
The correct answer is that Ikaruga's presentation gives an air of "artsiness" that journos are drawn to on a superficial level. They can't judge the game based on anything else, so that's what they gravitate to. >>11884265 is wrong because no journo would play the game enough to know that.

More mainstream than Gradius or R-Type? I doubt it.
I think another phenomena happen: Ikaruga is one of those good games that gets hated by "shmup hardcore gamers" (in reality posers who copymonkey japanese SPs and usa save states to "practice", and in most cases only ever play 1 or 2 games, if that), who relentlessly spread their agenda online for years or decades, trying to convince people to stop liking the game.

>>11884610
While there are probably more people who have played Gradius or R-Type just in total, I really doubt that they have more mainstream relevancy in most people's minds. Most 40 year olds around nowaday probably played Gradius III on the SNES but that's a scant memory compared to the giant, never ending journo shill campaign for Ikaruga.

Has there ever been a conversation about shumps that wasn't pretentious and misanthropic? I think that this genre may have the worst fandom that I personally have ever encountered.

>>11884689
If you're into shmups, you're almost definitely a misanthrope, so that makes sense. Being into shmups literally requires you to reject what the entirety of society tells you makes a game good.

>>11884683
>journo shill campaign for Ikaruga.
Source?

It looks cool and it's easy to get into for the first level or two.

>>11884597
You don't have to play a game extensively to recognize how it's crafted. People like you are just stupid contrarian hipsters who immediately think something is bad just because it isn't completely underground. That's exactly the reason why Cave fans are cancer. Your animu garbage is shit compared to Yasushi Suzuki and you are too stupid to notice it.

>>11883384 (OP)
Is Ikaruga the Ridge Racer Type 4 of shmups?

>>11884610
This. The western shmups community is just full of hipster contrarians and wannabe elitists. It's a literal gang of wannabes and binge gamers. They are also all absolute attention whores, who use any chance they can get to get in front of a camera and act knowledgable. Everyone is a wannabe commentator like in the speedrun community. It's full of faggots just liek speedrunning.

>>11884727
I noticed it happens with other Japanese media where this phenomena happens where western wannabe-elitists, as you say, pretend to hate some popular works in an attempt to look like they're "beyond normalfag's tastes" or something, for example happens with western anime nerds and Evangelion/Gainax/Hideaki Anno.
Not sure why it doesn't happen in Japan, since there's wannabe elitists there too I'm sure. Probably all the cultural differences lead to them hating other particular popular stuff, I dunno. Japanese internet is very different from western internet anyways.

>>11884740
People tend to hate anything which makes them feel inferior. That's the curse of intelligence. When you are intelligent, then you get hated by people who are more stupid than you, because it actually makes them truely feel inferior.

>>11883384 (OP)
Obviously the polarity gimmick, and honestly it IS more casual friendly han Garegga/DOJ thanks to the easy mode.

>>11884750
Would make sense in relation with Japanese internet vs Western internet, since Japan is a general high IQ country while the west is all over the place.

>>11884683
This
99% of gamers probably have no idea what Gradius/R-Type are
If they do, they probably just think "those STUPID quarter munching rentals games!" and nothing else
Probably like half of all gamers have heard about Ikaruga somewhere, positively

>>11884765
>99% of gamers probably have no idea what Gradius/R-Type are
That would be pretty sad if true. Gradius and R-Type are household names.

>>11884764
Yea, western shmups community is a multicultural cesspool, so there is also zero respect in it and it's all just about phony attention whoring.

That era of /vr/ when the refugees from /vg/'s shmup general raided here was one of the lowest points on this board's history (at least pre-rule change).
They never talked about video games, just gossip about other literal whos from shmup forums and their hatred for guys who owned PCBs.

>>11883384 (OP)
Space Invaders is far more mainstream, dude.

>>11884719
His not saying Ikaruga is bad, just that there is something else to the game that appeals to game journalists because they are usually incapable of judging a shmup on its' fundamental merits.

When the fuck is Ubusana coming out?

>>11885316
2030 at the most

>>11884769
>are
were

>>11884775
That's pretty much every community, especially traditionally nerdy ones

>>11885351
???

>>11883384 (OP)
it's simply the best
since nothing better came you could call shmups a solved genre at this point

>>11885378
>*blocks your path*

>>11885391
It's great, but not amongst the best

>>11885378
ENTER

>>11883649
i got the xbox 360 release for free so ill play that.

>>11883384 (OP)
shmups are absolute shit game for mentally ill people and their only redeeming quality is having cool boxart

>>11885191
The fact he just reduces its mainstream appeal to "artsiness" means he thinks it's bad. Go play your generic collectathons if you hate good artstyle and design so much.

Because visuals and artsy shit, got console ports that were available in America, distinct style (I once played garegga in public and some random normal fag thought it was a 194x game for some reason), game critics praising the shit out of it, among other things

>>11884338
dimahoo released in the west and was published by capcom

>>11883742
>in 2012
So not during the time when games media was gushing about Ikaruga

>>11884694
nta anon, but back in the 2000s, just about any gaming site was gushing about ikaruga and putting it either on "best games" lists or "hardest games" lists

>>11885462
Getting an arcade release in 2000 isn't anywhere near the same thing as a gamecube release
This entire point is retarded anyway, the polarity thing in Dimahoo is a small element of the game, not a major mechanic

>>11885372
Yes, believe it or not, there's a world now, different from the 80s and 90s, and also different from a circlejerk of people talking about 30 year old space shooters.

>>11883384 (OP)
I don't see people talk about this much but a lot of shmups use colors that are really hard for colorblind people, specially when the mid bosses or bosses start spewing bullets all over the screen that mix with the background and various effects. I keep dying to a bullet I didn't see on those games. (Those games with pink/blue/purple/red bullets are the worst)
So Ikaruga having just 2 colors is amazing, I've never ever died where it wasn't clearly my fault.

>>11883384 (OP)
I think because it was on gamecube which didn't have a lot of genuinely decent games and it was hyped by Nintendo oriented media, so a lot of people new about it.

>>11885436
>The fact he just reduces its mainstream appeal to "artsiness" means he thinks it's bad.
What??? So every game that doesn't have mainstream appeal is automatically bad? Are you fucking brain damaged???

No, the true "meat" of Ikaruga's design does not have mainstream appeal, not many people will engage with the game on a deeper level, and that's okay. The part that does have mainstream appeal is the presentation, and that's okay too.

i wouldnt really call any shmup mainstream. dont think ive ever heard them discussed irl. if i had to pick one it would r-type or gradius though, primarily because of borrowing the snes version from friends. thats how i knew them. i cant remember ever seeing them in arcades. the first two raiden games are the only shmups i can recall playing in the arcade in the 90s

>>11883384 (OP)
I don't really like shmups, I think Ikaruga's "mainstream" appeal really is entirely its presentation. The first couple minutes of the game are just great. Once those wear off and I realize I'm just playing a shmup though I usually get bored and move on.

Hellsinker is so difficult as an entry shmup that it cannot be called a good representative for the genre anymore.

JSS is great. Try also Cho Rensha.

>>11885479
>and also different from a circlejerk of people talking about 30 year old space shooters.
Then this whole thread is pointless.
People who know about Ikaruga will also know about Gradius and R-Type.
People who don't know about Ikaruga might still know about R-Type and Gradius because they are so famous and existed since the 80s.

>>11885804
Most famous shmup is probably space invaders

>>11886239
Yes, and Galaga. After that, as far as scrolling ones go, it's Gradius and R-Type.
I seriously don't think any person who knows about Ikaruga doesn't know about Gradius.

The color swap mechanic sounds appealing to casuals on paper because it gives you an alternative way to survive instead of just pixel perfect dodging and limited bombs.

>>11883384 (OP)
Marketable High concept premise, nice visuals. I feel like dodonpachi could also take off because of it being fun to look at and having rapid fire stiimulation

>>11885398
tf do those letters say

Ikaruga acually presented a unique game design, while DOJ and Garegga didn't really do anything new.

Ikaruga just has everything. A really cool and fun chaining system, unique and interesting subweapons, a unique polarity gimmick, and everything fits together perfectly. Plus the presentation is absolute top tier too.

The only shmup which could be comparable in terms of game design master class is probably just DOJ, but DOJ is more traditional and archaic, which is probably why journalists never liked it that much.

>>11886482
>DOJ
hyper system
>Garegga
rank system

>>11886607
>hyper system
Wasn't really anything new. You just get a power up boost by killing enemies. Could be compared to limit breaks in Final Famtasy. It's nothing very innovative.

>rank system
Garegga is just a copy of Gun Frontier. Gun Frontier already had everything which is cool about Garegga, including rank system.

>>11886607
>>11886640
Another comparison of Hypers would be the Super Combos in Super Street Fighter 2. I bet that's where Ikeda got the idea from. Just fill up a bar related to damage and the player gets a juicy combo.

>>11883658
The fame of these games' difficulty rankings is often undeserved. You can watch videos of 1cc of DOJ and Battle Garegga, and you'll see that no complex strategy is really needed to manipulate the ranking.
Generally, you will only see ranking autism in situations more advanced than 1cc. And from what little I've seen of Ikaruga, I believe that its scoring method is more complex and requires more esoteric knowledge than Battle Garegga, at least.

>>11886697
The biggest difficulty in DOJ or Garegga survival is the almost pixel perfect dodging (it's not mushihimesama pixel dodging, but still can get very tight).
Ikaruga doesn't have this. Ikaruga is a true memorizer like R-Type or Gradius. It's just about finding a good strategy and then memorizing it. R-Type is also similar to a puzzle game. No pixel dodging involved unless you want to get highscores perhaps.

Ikaruga is still hard, because it really can require a lot of memorization, depending on which difficulty you play on, but at least this memorization also really helps with getting better at the game. Pixel perfect dodging however can't be memorized that well, because it also requires very good reflexes and hand-eye coordination.

I wanted to like this game and I thought it looked really cool but after stage one it just drops thr ball and goes downhill. The color gimmick is genuinely interesting. But the levels are incredibly generic and so are the enemies and bosses. Basically everything you look at for most of the game is just really boring. This matters because you will lose a lot and need to replay through the same levels so they should be more interesting or lively. just an art style failure. Anyway I’m sure that will piss some people offf I’m just explaining why I didn’t stick with it I had played other shmups that just interested me more. I don’t really understand why it gets talked about so much , I remember people meming it way back like in 2008 or 2010. it was super disappointing playing it after seeing it spammed for like two or three years

>>11886697
It's obvious from this comment that you haven't played much Garegga. If you don't score you won't get extends, can't suicide when you need to and will get fucked sideways by the ranking system. A Garegga 1cc is contigent on ranking autism.

>>11886760
Yes, I only played Battle Garegga a few times on Mame, but I never really got into it. However, I saw some 1cc comments on YouTube, and the last guy I saw didn't really do anything that complex, he just avoided a few "medals" or something, and that was it. He didn't even commit suicide, as far as I remember, he just died naturally, dropping down the ranking.

>>11887646
Controlling the rank by dying naturally in Garegga is very luck based. It's not something you can rely on, because you can't control when you die naturally.

I already 1cced Garegga and to do it in a somewhat reliable way it requires to fully chain until stage 6 or mid stage 5, constantly suiciding when you are about to get a 2nd extend, avoiding too many options until stage 5, triggering secret option formations in stage 5 or 6 (without them you are pretty much fucked in stage 6, so if you die in stage 6 it's very hard to recover), the only good ship for survival is pretty much just Golden Bat other ships are very weak in comparison, and of course it requires a lot of tight dodging especially in stage 6 and 7 endboss rush.

It's not an easy 1cc, no matter what you do, because the game is full of rng (especially with the medalling) and you constantly have to watch the rank and chain otherwise the game becomes a nightmare at the end.

The difficult thing about Garegga is basically that you can't hoard lives. You are always on the verge of game overing in order to control your rank, and this makes it very hard to get into stage 7 with 4 lives to do the endboss rush somewhat consistently, because Black Heart 2 is very difficult..

>>11887682
How long did you practice before pulling it off? I've been playing Garegga casually for a few years now and I treat it like golf where my only goal is to beat my high score because I know if I ever reached the tank factory on one credit I'd spaz out and get myself killed. The furthest I've been able to get on a single credit is Cloud, and I can't imagine getting past the boss without biting the dust let alone clearing stage 6 and then defeating him a second time on stage 7.

The western release of Ikaruga wasn't what made it popular since that release was very uncommon. Being the swan song for the Dreamcast was more notable, even if it then got more shmups for like five years.

What made it popular is that it's a good game with a gimmick that turns an otherwise impossibly difficult title into something that is fairly easy as long as you know where to stand. Even if you suck at shmups you can understand the puzzle aspect the gimmick adds and use it to get through a significant chunk of the game (you only really get fucked on stage 4).

Anyone I've shown the game to can see that the game is fairly simple and can get hooked on learning on what is the right color/position on each part. It's not just shooting indiscriminately and seeing the pretty colors go boom. You have to either know what you are doing or plan each move two steps in advance, and this is a huge appeal for everyone who doesn't play shmups. It allows you to get good at it without being good at it. The shield gimmick means the game can do danmaku bullshit while still being extremely accessible. It looks hard but it is really easy, which gives a huge feeling of euphoria for conquering even just one level. Especially if you can get it right and do unbroken chains too.

So you can understand why they give it high scores.
Simply put, the game is ACTUALLY GOOD.

Then there was the double play videos by VTF-INO which were as big as that 3S Evo moment (later releases even added it as an official game mode).

>>11887781
>How long did you practice before pulling it off
I don't know exactly anymore, it's been like 7 years when I did this. Maybe 50 hours, more or less? I'm not very fast at clearing games, because I prefer to learn them more organically, not with constant savestate practice. I've also seen people clearing it in 12 hours tho. It's doable if you are very good at twitch dodging.

To clear it you have to really stick to it and keep hitting your head against the wall, then it will eventually come. You just need to control the rank, chain, and trigger the special options for stage 6.

>>11883384 (OP)
The shield mechanic is very attractive to newbies.
>Oh, I don't have to dodge every bullet? I can just block them? That sounds easier, I'll try it!
It gives them the confidence to stick with it a bit longer than other shmups, especially when paired with the multiple difficulty settings.

>>11888059
The shield mechanic also feels really good tho. It's fun absorbing all the bullets to power up your homing laser.

>>11886697
>And from what little I've seen of Ikaruga, I believe that its scoring method is more complex and requires more esoteric knowledge than Battle Garegga, at least.
Isn't Ikaruga's whole scoring system just "kill enemies with opposite polarity as many times in a row as you can for max combo"? The only real trick to high scores in Ikaruga is minimizing how often you switch polarities because you build combos by killing the same color enemy consecutively.

>>11888063
It does, I also like it a lot. I just think it's one of those things that makes the game look more inviting at face value. I know it had that effect on me.

>>11888068
Ikaruga's scoring can get pretty autistic. It requires very precise and times shots if you want good scores. It doesn't have the tight dodges of a Cave game tho, apart from stage 5 boss maybe. The game is mainly just about strategy and precise shooting.

>>11888071
Probably to some extend, but it's not like it's the first shmup with a shield mechanic. Taito's Grid Seeker for example has a similar mechanic where you power up big laser bombs instead, but that game was not particularly successfull. Ikaruga just did everything right. It's very well made, and also accessible.

>>11888068
It is, but to get some chains you have to act with split second timing or do funky shit like only power your shield to a certain amount and release it at the exact right position so it only shoots the right amount of homing blasts in the right direction to kill the 3 small things in the upper corner.
And you do that while trying to dodge bullets, checking if you are the right color to dodge bullets, and making sure you don't accidentally end up shooting an enemy of the same color while changing polarities (you end up releasing garbage bullets which kill you if you shoot and then change color).

So like the entire shield mechanic, the combos are extremely simple in a way that can turn the game completely upside down.

>>11888490
>the combos are extremely simple in a way that can turn the game completely upside down
That's the genius of Ikaruga. It's a very simple concept but it's so unique and opens a lot of room for strategies.

>>11886482
>>11886640
Epic argument. Ok, so Ikaruga does not have anything new or innovative because the polarity system was already in Silhouette Mirage.

>>11883384 (OP)
The same reason every other mainstream shmup got popular, they were cheap and had good visuals (the only thing normies care about)
Like seriously the amount of people who "played" these games vs the ones who have beaten them is astronomical. I honestly hate the genre and find it incredibly dull, but my best friend is a nut for them and has played hundreds of them. Ofcourse he is a big Saturn fan as a result, and one of the people who thinks the TG16 should have dominated the market. Don't get me wrong I can enjoy some of these games, I loved Tyrian for instance but I just don't get most of these games, they don't click with me.

>>11888552
>polarity system was already in Silhouette Mirage
It was a quite different version of it and at least Silhouette Mirage was also developed by Treasure.

What makes Ikaruga unique is how all its mechanics play together. They are all quite unusual mechanics for shmups and together create a very unique way of playing
>a full shield for the player ship
>creating chains by shooting 3 enemies in a row like in a puzzle game
>absorbing bullets to power up homing lasers
>whole game works in polarities of opposite colors
>no bombs in the game
>a very narrow player shot
>you can actually clear the game without shooting and do pacifist runs
These are all very unusual things for shmups, and yet the game plays so well.

>>11888552
The polarity system in silhouette mirage was horrible, it required you to switch directions and it was very slow. Also that game was over 1 hour long for a playthrough, so it got tedious in the first two minutes and boring not soon after.

>>11888567
Also,
>no power ups collectables
That's also such an unusual thing for a shmup. Usually shmups always play a bit like collectathons, which is a big reason they feel a bit archaic, but Ikaruga completely removed this.

>>11888603
>>11888567
Yeah, Ikaruga is basically a huge exercise in minimalism, which is why it is so brilliant. Everything that isn't about the core shooting element is removed, replaced with the polarity switch and your homing attack.

>>11888560
Tyrian isn't a shmup.

>>11888634
>a huge exercise in minimalism
Yea, it also has a buddhism/zen theme which fits to it.

As somebody who mostly just dabbled in shmups, it was the first "bullet hell" game that I was aware of, probably because it had a Dreamcast release.

>>11888634
Thinking of it, Psyvariar is also a similar minimalist game. It also makes great use of the bullets with the grazing mechanic.

>>11883384 (OP)
i remember seeing it on xplay and deciding it looked too hard for my stupid ass so i bought mario golf instead

>>11888715
For me, it was the Gamecube release. But yeah, I think having a high profile, well-marketed console release was actually a big part of what got so many eyes on it.

>>11888552
Although, I have to admit DOJ is still retty cool. Its chaining system is pretty much perfect for shooting games. Ikaruga is definitely more unorthodox and a bit weird.

>Ikaruga is definitely more unorthodox and a bit weird.
But that's also what I like about it. I like weird things.

>>11888639
Then what is it?

>>11889242
Euroshit.

>>11889243
But it's American.

>>11888745
It was also by Treasure, which gave it a certain cachet. You had to be a super-shmup head to know about like, Cave and Toplan at the time, but mainstream journalists remembered Treasure from the Genesis

shmup/danmaku elitism is predicated on the idea that no one likes their genre because it's too difficult. but then ikaruga comes along and completely shatters their worldview because it's a difficult game with massive fanbase. the reality is, difficulty was never an issue for mainstream audiences. people just want a game that isn't sterile as shit.

>>11889375
>massive fanbase
99% of steam reviews of ikaruga mention that they got filtered by level 2

>>11889375
People pretending to like a game without actually playing it don't count as fans

>>11889375
If your view is that shmups need to be insane super unique innovative games to succeed, then how do you explain the fact that Mars Matrix, Hellsinker, Zeroranger, Psyvarviar, Guwange, Under Defeat, etc. don't have "massive fanbases" either?

>>11889385
>99% of steam reviews
unnecessary hyperbole. already at a good start
>they got filtered by level 2
yet the game still has a "very positive" overall score and people liked what they played at the time of writing the review.

you're basically proving the point whether you realize it or not. people don't hate shmups because they're "difficult". there are tertiary factors for why the genre in general is unpopular.

>>11889403
so why don't other danmaku games have people that are dying to pretend like they're diehard fans for poser cred? until you answer that question, you won't be able to figure out why ikaruga succeeded where other games failed

>>11889419
Who cares? I can't imagine caring about what goes through the mind of a secondary.

>>11889375
>shmup elitism is predicated on the idea that no one likes their genre because it's too difficult
This isn't the dominant view among anyone that's not retarded. Shmups are popular for the same reason that any other arcade genre isn't popular, it's just that shmups haven't tried non-arcade formats. Tyrian is worthless dogshit but normalfaggots are still tempted to try it because it has a lot of content.
On the topic of Ikaruga, you're a dumbfuck retardniggerfaggot if you think that the interest in it is in anyway organic and can be considered the will of market forces. People are interested in Ikaruga because of the journo-pushed narratives surrounding it, if it wasn't for it, it would be in the same boat as Hellsinker

>>11889375
>shmup elitism is predicated on the idea that no one likes their genre because it's too difficult
This isn't the dominant view among anyone that's not retarded. Shmups are not popular for the same reason that any other arcade genre isn't popular, it's just that shmups haven't tried non-arcade formats. Tyrian is worthless dogshit but normalfaggots are still tempted to try it because it has a lot of content.
On the topic of Ikaruga, you're a dumbfuck retardniggerfaggot if you think that the interest in it is in anyway organic and can be considered the will of market forces. People are interested in Ikaruga because of the journo-pushed narratives surrounding it, if it wasn't for it, it would be in the same boat as Hellsinker

>>11889419
>why don't other danmaku games have posers
Danmaku fans actually play the games instead of pretending between there's no mainstream cred you can get for saying you love Garegga or whatever.

>>11889419
>why don't other danmaku games have posers
Danmaku fans actually play the games instead of pretending because there's no mainstream cred you can get for saying you love Garegga or whatever.

>>11883384 (OP)
Treasure games are extremely appealing to tastemakers. They look cool and are stylish but I don’t actually enjoy playing any of their games.

>>11889419
>why don't other danmaku games have people that are dying to pretend like they're diehard fans for poser creds
....are you implying that a game is bad if it DOESN'T have posers pretending to have played it????

>>11889434
you're so close to getting it

>Shmups are not popular for the same reason that any other arcade genre isn't popular, it's just that shmups haven't tried non-arcade formats
i don't disagree, in fact, i do genuinely believe that this is the main factor for why shmups are not popular.

in general, most of the arcade classics haven't adapted well to the console market. it wouldn't actually be that difficult, you just need to make a value proposition to the customer to convince them to purchase your game (extra gimmick modes, hard modes, training modes with save states etc.). most people outside of the hardcore market are not going to buy a straight arcade port with a simple training mode, because there are no extrinsic motivators to promote replayability. its very rare to find a new customer who is willing to play a game out of pure intrinsic motivation to complete it.

ikaruga's various ports are lackluster when it comes to content, but the game has a higher value proposition than your average shmup because of the artsy fartsy stuff that people are casually dismissing in this thread. but the reality is, you dont have to make an artsy "journo-bait" game riding off of Treasure's coattails, you just have to give them a good product.

>>11889385
Meh, I only got filtered at stage 4, only way I can beat it is by not shooting unless absolutely necessary or it's something point blank that won't generate garbage shots. Stage 1 is super easy, stage 2 I have to pay attention but can mostly chain through (I only screw up that one pattern with the enemies closing in on you in a circle), stage 3 I can only chain short bursts.
stage 4 fucks me up big time, I have to concentrate on survival.
stage 5 on the other hand is insanely sweet. The first two parts of the boss are difficult, but that's it. When the final boss music kicks in, the game feels like sex.

They fucked up the steam version, if you use level select you can't see the final form of the final boss (the really pretty screensaver).

>>11889434
>People are interested in Ikaruga because of the journo-pushed narratives surrounding it, if it wasn't for it, it would be in the same boat as Hellsinker
Lol, this is what doujin fans tell themselves.

When I started playing Ikaruga, I never even read any journalist article about it. I just thought the game looked cool and was fun to play. I didn't even know what IGN was when everyone memed the frozen demand meme.

Maybe you are the ones who get influenced by mainstream media. I never even cared about this, because western videogame industry is cancer anyway.

>>11889472
>artsy fartsy stuff
So just ebcaus ethe game doesn't have the average animu otaku bait like Cave games, it's "artsy fartsy"?

Sounds like you just have shitty taste in art. Yasushi Suzuki is extremely talented. If you can't see this and get offended by it, it probably means that you hate it because it's better than your favorite artists.

Ikaruga is actually intelligently designed, which makes cookie clutter shmup fans seethe. As if Cave ever could make a game like Sin & Punishment 2. They simply don't have the talent like Treasure and were still stuck in the early 90s in the 00s.

>>11890090
This makes me wonder... Is the whole Cave VD Treasure rivalry a real thing in Japan, or just another westie shenanigans?

>>11890090
Cave made steep slope sliders, TRashure could never make that

>>11890097
I bet it's a western thing. Shmups community here is cancer and full of hipster elitists. They hate Ikaruga, because it makes their favorite otaku bait look like shit.

>>11889415
>
Under Defeat is not even that unique. It's just rayforce with a helicopter and a bomb instead of lasers.

The rest of these games may be unique but play awkwardly. It's not enough to just be unique, you also have to make it unique and good.

>>11889347
A Euroshmup is a style of shmup that originated in Europe on PCs in the 80s but they're not necessarily European. Tyrian is an American Euroshmup.

>>11890118
>Shmups community here is cancer and full of hipster elitists. They hate Ikaruga
I haven't really seen much of that. Otoh, Ikaruga fandom seems to be full of people who hate shmups in general, loudly proclaiming Ikaruga to be the greatest shmup ever made.

>>11890220
You have no clue what you are talking about. I actually play shmups, and know how the community is.
Ikaruga fans are either normies who don't even care about it and just thought the game was cool and a novelty, or silent players who just like the game.
Shmups community is full of Cave and Raizing fans who shit on the game tho, because it's different and doesn't fit into their obscure hipster taste.

There is a reason why Cave fans often come from Touhou, because it's a similar cancerous fanbase. It's the low IQ otaku fanbase who hates anything which isn't generic otaku bait.

>>11890252
>Ikaruga fans are either normies who don't even care about it and just thought the game was cool and a novelty, or silent players who just like the game.
You don't seem to fall into either of those categories.

>>11890282
Yea, because I don't take any shit from people. I don't hold back anymore. Cave and Raizing suck and could never make a game like Treasure. Your taste is fuckign garbage low IQ otaku shit bait and you should fuckign kill yourself. Go back to touhou you fuckign freak. Go fuck yourself.

>>11890220
>Ikaruga fandom seems to be full of people who hate shmups in general
Show me an Ikaruga fan shitting on Gradius, R-Type or Darius or any other household shmup name

>>11883384 (OP)
It was relentlessly shilled by both Dreamcast and GameCube owners back in the day, since it was one of the few reasons to own either of those stillborn disasters. I'd have to go with the people who were still clinging onto the Dreamcast in 2002 and heralding the trickle of Japanese releases such as Ikaruga as "proof" that it wasn't dead the coveted Most Deranged award however.

>>11890298
Show me a DOJ or Garegga thread full of Cave/Raizing fans seething about Ikaruga.

>>11890326
I wasn't the other anon, just wondering.
I think most of the Cave vs Treasure shitposting, from either side, is from posers. And again, is not a thing on Japanese internet.

>>11890324
Wait... So Ikaruga haters were sony fans all along?

>>11890330
>I think most of the Cave vs Treasure shitposting, from either side, is from posers.
No, it's actual real Cave players who do it. They hate Ikaruga because it's so different from Cave, yet was commercially more successfull. I'm not saying all Cave players are like this, but it's a lot, at least in the west. They are cancerous like Touhou players and all want to be wanneb elitists by copying japanese replays.

Treasure even mentioned in interviews how people shit on the game

>Iuchi: The comment we received the most about Ikaruga was “this isn’t an arcade game”, and that we should “make it more thrilling and fast-paced.”

I bet these were all Cave and Raizing fans, because that's where I received those comments too. Shitting on a game like this tells you a lot about these fanbases.

Ikaruga always reminded me a bit of RayForce. There you also have homing lasers and have to chain enemies in rows. Plus you also die at the end of the game I think. There is also less shooting in Rayforce. So it's really weird to see people say this isn't a real shmup.

>>11890182
Thanks for the info, I didn't know there was a distinction.

>>11890298
That's because those series are good with memorable music, graphics, enemies, and gameplay, while Cave/Raizing games are just full of autistic bullshit. Cave is just danmaku garbage and Raizing has idiotic design choices.
I'd also lump Psikyo together since they have not only crap but repetitive designs too, but at least they got a good art department.

And yes, every time I see someone online talking about how Ikaruga sucks, they usually recommend Cave/Raizing games instead as "real" shmups. It's gotten so fucking stupid that at this point I hate their games a lot more than I ever will hate Ikaruga.

>>11890182
>A Euroshmup is a style of shmup that originated in Europe on PCs in the 80s but they're not necessarily European. Tyrian is an American Euroshmup.

Yeah and America is just Europeans living in America.

>>11890559
>Raizing has idiotic design choices.
Raizing literally just copied Taito. They did it with Garegga/batrider where they just copied Gun Frontier, and they did it with Soukyugurentai where they copied Rayforce.

Sure, they kind of modernized these games, but still, it's a bit weak to just blatantly copy other developers.

Ok shmup pros, is Takumi a good developer?

>>11890298
Yeah but Gradius, R-Type and Darius are the same kind of shmup as Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun. They all put a heavy focus on strategic routing and memorization. This type of shmup has ALWAYS been more marketable and profitable in the west compared to danmaku troonification hypno shit with pink flashing colors. Unfortunately danmaku fans think they ARE the shmup fanbase when they're actually a niche within a niche.

I like all kind sof shmup developers.
I like Cave for consistently putting out cool games. They made more cool shmups than any other developer.
I like Treasure for RSG, Ikaruga and Gradius V. They should have made more shmups but the ones they made were genius.
And I also like the other stuff by Psikyo, Raizing, Konami, Irem, Taito, etc.

>>11890939
If old-school shmups are more profitable, how do you explain the fact that Gradius, Darius, R-Type, etc. are in exactly the same boat as every other shmup franchise including danmaku ones? For instance, check out review numbers on steam:
>Darius Burst CS - 672
>R-Type Final 2 - 631
These games sold extremely low for having such big names. Now, compare to "danmaku troonification hypno shit"
>Mushihimesama - 1315
>Crimzon Clover WI - 1133
Interesting!

>>11883384 (OP)
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that one of the big principals in shmups is breaking down patterns, its pretty common for an enemy to shoot out two waves at bullets to force the player to decide between waiting at the bottom for bullets to disperse where they will also be overlapping and thus more difficult to dodge, or to move forwards and preemptively dodge one pattern and wait for the other.

The problem is that this isn't apparent to most normie players until they either learn through trial and error or have it explained to them, but in Ikaruga they're given an objectively correct choice and if they don't choose it they get killed. In other shmups if an inexperienced player fails to break down a pattern they may blame their micro-dodging ability as opposed to their overall strategy (which many normies seem to think shmups don't require) whereas Ikaruga would never even allow players to micro-dodge most patterns all in one go.

The graphic design also helps here, the play hitbox is big and long and bullets are largely in formless clouds that in practice serve as one large bullet but the fact there are so many bullets on screen overwhelms the eye and retains the inherent coolness of danmaku games while retaining the greater focus on planning of older games.

TLDR; it's strangely accessible despite its difficulty due to some really good player teaching and conditioning

>>11890090
>ikaruga is actually intelligently designed
Explain exactly how CAVE/Raizing/Psikyo/Takumi/etc. games are NOT intelligently designed, in your view.
>>11890118
>>11890252
You are making things up that only exist in your head.
>>11890136
>under defeat is literally rayforce
You've never played it if you actually think this.
>>11890298
They also do so implicitly when they say that all shmups are worthless dogshit and only Ikaruga is good.
>>11890559
>Cave/Raizing games are just full of [worthless buzzword that doesn't tell me anything]
I accept your concession that you are inable to actually state why you believe the things you be believe.
>>11890572
Taking ideas and refining them while adding a ton of new shit =/ "copying"
>>11890575
Yes. They made Mars Matrix.
>>11890939
Classic shmups don't sell shit in the west either nigger, you are actually delusional if you think that the average normalfag is just as inclined to buy ikaruga as he is to buy gradius #53 where you need to exact memo the entire stage to survive and death forces you into a unwinnable checkpoint

>>11890939
>this type of shmup has ALWAYS been more marketable and profitable in the west compared to danmaku troonification hypno shit
You wanna bet on that? There was a leak of steams sales data in 2018 if you want to prove it.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/steam-data-leak-reveals-precise-player-count-for-thousands-of-games/

Ikaruga
>Ikaruga - 128k

"Danmaku Troonification Shit"
>Crimzon Clover - 78k
>Mushihimesama - 41k
>DDP DFK - 21k
>Deathsmiles - 25k

Classic Shmups
>Satazius - 32k
>Darius Burst - 27k
>Raiden IV - 38k

Anonretardniggerfaggot.... why don't classic shmups sell as much as Ikaruga? You SAID that they have the same appeal to normalretardniggerfaggots. What happened???

>>11883384 (OP)
you can facetank bullets and keep playing. simple.

>>11891210
>Explain exactly how CAVE/Raizing/Psikyo/Takumi/etc. games are NOT intelligently designed, in your view.
There obviously went a lot of thought into these games too but it's not on the level of Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga.

It's the color affinity. Usually shmups are just about shooting and dodging and maybe collecting medals or whatever, but with RSG and especially Ikaruga there is another layer added. You are just too stupid to recognize the genius behind it. The genre had been alive for such a long time already when Ikaruga came out, and the game managed to create a completely different way of playing, because the developers could see things other people couldn't see. That's what makes it genius.

>>11891246
>it has le polarity fimmick so its HECKIN SUPER UNIQUE INNOVATIVE GENUIS WHAT WERE THE OTHER SHMUP DEVS THINKING???
There is nothing that separates you from normalniggers. You ARE a normalnigger. You are most normalniggeriest, normalfaggiest, normalretardiest, normalretardniggerfaggot. This is the exact same normalretardniggerfaggot spiel I've heard seven billion times over already. KYS.

>>11890939
The original R-Type got an HD remaster back in 2018. https://store.steampowered.com/app/928390/RType_Dimensions_EX/
It only has almost 300 steam reviews. That's like 12000 sales at most. Complete dogshit. Ikaruga sold ~20 times that. Retard.

>>11891256
>its HECKIN SUPER UNIQUE INNOVATIVE GENUIS
That's what it is, yes. Not my fault it triggers you so much.
Maybe Cave should have thought of better gimmicks too instead of just adding more bullets to the games.

>>11891268
Having a gimmick isn't some kind of special thing, I'd say about half of all shmups have big gimmicks. The fact that you think Ikaruga having a gimmick is some kind of insane super special think proves that you're a retarded niggerfaggot.
Hey nigger, if a shmup needs a gimmick to sell, can you explain why Guwange, Esp.Ra.De, Hellsinker, Mars Matrix, and Psyarviar didn't sell? Maybe it's because you're a fucking retarded niggerfaggot who is wrong?

>>11890260
>>11890287
Why are Ikaruga fans so deranged and mentally ill?

>>11890069
You are actually a genuine mental retard. Do you know why there was a copy of Ikaruga on the gamecube at the store available for you to buy? It literally has the reason on the fucking box, a IGN tranny journo going "our FROTHING demand for this game increases" that journo is the entire reason you were even able to buy the game. Dumbfuck.

>>11891274
>Having a gimmick isn't some kind of special thing
I never said that. It's you who thinks gimmicks are such a bad thing.

>why Guwange, Esp.Ra.De, Hellsinker, Mars Matrix, and Psyarviar didn't sell?
Because their gimmicks were not as good, plus the whole game wasn't as well made.
Guwange controls are kind of awkward. You basically play 2 players at the same time with the shikigami. It's almost like playing a double play, so it's obvious that the game wasn't that well received. Not to mention how utterly unbalanced the game is when having to milk catspider for score. I still liek it tho.

Psyvariar is about grazing bullets, and that can be very frustrating. It's a cool gimmick, but it can be very annoying when you run into bullets because your invinicbility frames trigger a milisecond too late.

There are many shmups with interesting mechanics, but Ikaruga is just on another level.

>>11891290
>it's you who thinks gimmichs are such a bad thing
Typical Ikarugafag making up things in his head again. I never said this.
>because their gimmicks were not as good
Explain what is inherently about the specific concepts introduced in these games.
Guwange's shiki introduces aiming like a twin stick and the game takes advantage of it with the multi-directional scrolling, the terrain limiting you to different parts of the screen, the entire game feels incredibly different from most other bullet hells in a really cool and distinct way.
Hellsinker is extremely innovative in that controlling your character actually requires learning a lot of different moves and training your precise execution like a character action game, it's insanely different from any other shmup, way more than Ikaruga is, if you shoved Hellsinker into a normalfaggots face he'd all be over it - I wonder who shoved Ikaruga into normalfaggots faces... ?

>>11891290
NTA but
>a shmup needs to perfectly execute a gimmick and be literally perfect in order to sell
Isn't this a bit strange of an expectation? I'm not seeing any reasons why it is that way

>>11891305
>Explain what is inherently about the specific concepts introduced in these games
I already told you. Guwange controls are awkward. Playing 2 characters at the same time is always awkward. I still like the game, but the idea behind it is obviously not as interesting as the color affinity.

>>11891312
It's not liek Ikaruga sold that well anyway. The game is still incredibly underrated compared to all the JRPG or whatever slop out there. It's just a well made game and had a novel idea behind it, which is why journalists liked it. It also used 3d graphics and not 2d like Cave. Journalists in the west always gave 2d games lower scores, no matter how good they looked. They always wanted new things, new graphics, new mechanics, etc, and that's what Ikaruga did, and it did it very well.

>>11891286
I guess Ikaruga's theme of bipolarity resonates with them.

>>11891179
In fact, you're sabotaging your own argument. Darius CS and R-Type Final cost 2.0x and 2.5x more than Mushihimesama and Crimson Clover on Steam. Why? Probably because of the name. R-Type can afford to charge $50 because normalfags recognize the brand. Mushihimesama sells for $20 because no one has any idea what it is, except for people who like shooters.
Ikaruga costs $10 on Steam. R-Type Final costs 5x more than Ikaruga.

>>11891382
>only normalfags recognize the brand
Lol do you actually think that normalfags know what R-Type is?
Go out on the street and ask a random person what R-Type is. They'll look at you like you're an alien.

>>11891220
Again, the same problem I mentioned here: >>11891382

You can't just compare review or sales numbers and think you're seeing the whole story. If you look at the whole story, the numbers you posted contradict what you're saying in some cases. The Raiden series, for example, is famous on Steam because virtually all of its ports are disastrous, which is reflected in the very poor recommendations the games have in the store.

>>11891389
The Raiden IV port mentioned in the 2018 leak is a different port from the current shitty one.
If it's about port quality, Raiden V sold only 3k copies according to the leak.
>>11891382
How do you know that Darius Burst got away with selling for 50 dollars because normalfags bought it? If anything, I would assume the only people who were willing to buy it for 50 dollars would be shmupfags. Why would a normalfag buy a shmup for 50 dollars just because he recognizes the name?

>>11891382
R-Type Dimensions Ex. is 15 dollars and it still only has 300 reviews. Isn't that interesting?

>>11891470
The games are old as fuck. Not much to say about them anymore.

>>11891492
Classic shmups are SO much popular than your tranny danmakushit you STUUUUPID FUCKING CHUD!!!
>uhhh..... a classic shmup didn't sell shit? ummm thats because ummmm uhhh its ummm

>>11891220
>why don't classic shmups sell as much as Ikaruga?
Half of this motherfucking thread has already answered why. Ikaruga sold well because of its unmatched presentation and production values. With that out of the way, those classic shmups WERE successful because their gameplay style had very broad appeal, and Ikaruga also inherited the same gameplay style. Danmaku will never and can never reach the same general audience no matter what.

>>11891507
>Ikaruga also inherited the same gameplay style
It even made it better. The amount of strategy the color affinity gameplay opens up is unmatched. When you just play for survival or a mid-score, then there are so many different ways how to play the game. You can always pick out the chains you want to try, where you want to absorb bullets, where you want to speedkill enemies with opposite color, etc. It's so much more strategy involved than just "shoot and dodge the bullets".

>>11891507
It was a rhetorical question to that retardniggerfaggot in specific, retardniggerfaggot. Obviously I know why.
>classic shmups were successful because their gameplay style had broad appeal
They were successful because they released in the arcade era, and even then, "successful" is a huge exaggeration. 100k copies at most isn't a huge mainstream hit. They had their last gap in the Ps2 era, and since then it's been fucking nothing.
Here are some famitsu numbers: (see: nichebarrier dot com)

Famicom Gradius 2 - 110k
Super Famicom Gradius 3 - 61k
Gradius Gaiden - 34k
Gradius V - 56k

PCE Super Darius - 112k
Saturn Darius Gaiden - 70k
PSX G-Darius - 35k

Super R-Type - 114k
R-Type Delta - 19k
R-Type Final - 72k

BTW, here are the physical sales numbers for modern releases:
R-Type Final 2 PS4 - 8k
R-Type Final 2 Switch - 6k
R-Type Final 3 PS5 - 2k
Darius Cozmic Collection Switch - 13k
Interesting! I wonder where the huge classic shmup audience which I was told was super mainstream went????

The only flaw Ikaruga has imo is that the game should have 1 stage more.
Stage 1 is a great introduction to the game.
Stage 2 follows up strong.
Stage 3 is more linear and a good change of pace.
Stage 4 is the complete opposite of stage 3 and complete chaos.
Stage 5 is short and linear again.

It's stage 5 which is the biggest flaw of the game. It's too short and linear. Stage 3 was already linear and linearity doesn't fit to the scoring system. Stage 5 is good, but it would be better if there was still another stage less linear.

>>11891519
>ikaruga is good because its like an old school shmups but also old school shmups are fucking trash where all you do is move and shoot and there's no strategy whatsoever you STUPID FUCKING CHUDDDD DIE DIE DIE KILL YOURSELF NOW!!!!
Why are "Ikaruga is like classic shmups" retardniggerfaggots so schizophrenic and deranged? Is it because their retarded opinions don't make sense and break down after any sort of pushback?

>>11891507
>danmaku will never and can never reach the same general audience no matter what
Touhou is one of the biggest fandoms in the entire world.

>>11883384 (OP)
when it first came out it was massively shilled as the most beautiful game ever made (false) and hardest shmup ever (massively false) so people latched onto it then the culture freeze happened so people just believed it forever to this day

>>11891603
>it was real in my mind

>>11891663
underageb&

>>11891538
>posts made by different people
>they don't even contradict each other
>"WELL WHICH ONE IS IT!?!?!?"
You are mentally retarded beyond repair. Euthanasia is the only answer.

>>11891551
>Touhou fandom
You already know what I'm going to say. Let's just say they're like that for a reason.

>>11891538
They are not trash, but old school. Ikaruga is like a modern version of R-Type or something. R-Type is still great of course, but Ikaruga has a lot more depth in terms of routing possibilities and strategy.

>>11891714
>post made by exactly one person
>saying the exact same thing which I pointed out them saying
>YOU STUUUUUPID FUCKING CHUD!!!
Why are Ikaruga shills so disingenuous?

>>11891776
>ikaruga is like a modern version of R-Type
NTA but literally what the fuck does Ikaruga have to do with R-Type specifically?
>ikaruga has a lot more depth in terms of routing possibilities and strategy
Literally every shmup released after 1993 has more possibilities and strategy than R-Type
If you want to point to a super deep shmup with a ton of possibilities, look at Garegga

>>11891882
>what the fuck does Ikaruga have to do with R-Type specifically?
They both heavily center their gameplay around a shield mechanic. In R-Type you always have to strategize where to put your shield, back or front or detatched, moving towards enemies, or away, etc. It has no bombs but a charge shot laser. There is not really that much dodging involved but rather strategic shield placement. It's like a puzzle game. That's very similar to how Ikaruga plays.

>>11891402
>If it's about port quality, Raiden V sold only 3k copies according to the leak.
It's not only about "port quality", but there's more to it than just sales figures. You need to consider a lot of other things. Price being the most obvious. Note that in your original post, you didn't even take the most important factor into consideration, which is price. As some people pointed out in this thread, right among the first replies, the digital version of Ikaruga is quite cheap, breaking a tradition of Japanese games being ridiculously expensive.

>How do you know that Darius Burst got away with selling for 50 dollars because normalfags bought it? If anything, I would assume the only people who were willing to buy it for 50 dollars would be shmupfags. Why would a normalfag buy a shmup for 50 dollars just because he recognizes the name?
I didn't say that. I said that games like R-Type, in particular, can afford to charge more because they are well-known brands. Ironically, Ikaruga is now a household name, perhaps even more so than R-Type, so a supposed “Ikaruga 2” could easily be sold for $40 on Steam without much trouble.
But note that you didn't consider any of these nuances in your initial posts.

>>11891504
You have the argumentative ability and emotional control of a woman.

>>11892553
NTA, but you do realize that the whole crux of this argument is if cllassic-style shmups are more appealing to normalfaggots or not? Sure, you could say that classic shmups might have a benefit in terms of name recognition, but that doesn't actually prove that normalfags are inherently drawn to that gameplay style more than danmaku.

>>11891220
>>Satazius - 32k
So even a dadshmup doujin pulls more layers than a Cave game like Deathsmiles? Pretty much proves his point desu

>>11892943
Satazius was sold at 6 dollars while Deathsmiles was 20. By the way, the Xbox 360 release of Deathsmiles sold 280k copies across all regions combined.

>>11883384 (OP)
Because Ikaruga actually conveys their information better than any other shmup at the time. If you pay attention to the tutorial then you already know how chaining works. The opening wave on the first stage is another tutorial, there's visual and audio feedback for every chain, every stage grades your score, the game rewards you with extra enemies after a successful section, you get extra lives through score... Everything in Ikaruga is designed around teaching and rewarding you through chaining. You don't need to be good at the game to understand what you're supposed to do and why it's great.

You won't know why Garegga is a good game unless you dig deep on how it works, especially on release. A lot of great shmups are appreciated by veterans but unknown by casuals. Ikaruga is the exception because it knew how to break the casual barrier.

>>11893053
That's literally what every arcade game tried to achieve. Easy to pick up, hard to master. Ikaruga is very simple but extremely effective.

I see the Cave/Raizing faggots managed to shat up another Ikaruga thread.

>>11893053
And also nearly every enemy comes in multiples of three (or a combination of it like 1+2 or 2+4), so the only thing you really need to figure out is how to destroy that group in the right order. You don't have enemies hitting you in random color order, you have chains basically handed to you. I think the last level is the only one where you have one more or one less of each color, forcing you to skip at least one or two enemies.

>>11891537
No, if they added another level, the game would be too long. And the nonlinear parts just mean you just have to dodge walls which is really fucking annoying because Treasure has a tendency to make their shmups extremely claustrophobic to begin with.
And stage 5 is short and linear because stage 4 was extremely long and complex, the game is basically giving you a breather.
Stage 5 also requires the tightest timing to get the best score so no need to make it harder by overcomplicating it; the bosses more than make up for how "simple" the stage is.

>>11893435
>I see [schizophrenic delusions]
You should see a doctor about that.

>>11893435
>I see the Cave/Raizing faggots managed to shat up another Ikaruga thread.
Don Quixote fighting windmills. Anyone who calls out the rabid fanboyism around this game for what it is must surely be a member of the rival brand loyalty cult.

>>11884754
Yeah, the Japanese difficulty ranking has its easy mode at 13 vs 20 and 26 for those other two.