Why is this game not discussed more frequently among the CRPG community? It's the most faithful adaptation of 3.5E D&D. It's focused on dungeon crawling. It's turn based, like all D&D adaptations should be. Plus the visuals are very nice. Yes, it was buggy on launch but it now runs perfectly fine with Co* and Temple+. Maybe because it is set in Greyhawk?
Anyway, ToEE thread.

>>3698725 (OP)
It's a boring dungeon crawler.

>>3698734
Just like Baldur's Gate 1, Icewind Dale, Pathfinder WOTR and many others. Your point?

>>3698725 (OP)
3.5e sucks and anyone who claims the opposite is lying.
I tried playing this game but the 3.5 jank is such a turn off I quickly dropped It.

I wanna play this gane, but I hate 3E. Why isn't it on Steam? Anyone have a good internet archive link?

>>3698750
>I wanna play this gane, but I hate 3E
You probably won’t like it, then. It used to be on GoG

>>3698736
>Baldur's Gate 1
Bg1 has few dungeons, it’s mostly comfy low level DnD tromping through the woods with your bros vibes.

>>3698760
It's shit either way

>>3698737
Why don't you like 3.5E? My experience with 3E is IWD2 and NWN. I actually like both games a lot, but the character building always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe I'm just autistic. Anyway, I get choice freeze really bad. It's really hard to make educated decisions because everything is standardized, the selection of abilities/talents/feats or whatever they're called is bloated to hell and there is generally very poor referencing available to the player. So you have to literally study the entire library of choices to make sure what you're picking is not only relevant to the module you're going to be in, but you need to make sure it's viable and therefore a competitive choice amongst all of the choices you have. Guaranteed I'm not going to make the character I really wanted to play because I'm gonna get balls deep in this module and realize I don't have the prereqs for something way more in line with what I wanted OR what I chose is just not that great and/or pretty lame. I also think slapping all these "classes" together creating these hybrid characters is so stupid. None of the pure classes are ever optimal. It's always some mix and match party going on. "Classes" just don't make sense in that context to me.

The ultimate bladder stone simulator
>>3698734
It is a crpg, dungeon crawler is a different genre.
>>3698737
Your opinion sucks, 3.5e is great.

>>3698828
>Your opinion sucks, 3.5e is great.
Why?

>>3698776
>None of the pure classes are ever optimal
Pure classes are optimal, hybrids are just overpowered minmaxer shit

>>3698934
>Pure classes are optimal, hybrids are just overpowered minmaxer shit
Dips are for faggots.

>>3698725 (OP)
>Why is this game not discussed more frequently among the CRPG community? It's the most faithful adaptation of 3.5E D&D. It's focused on dungeon crawling. It's turn based, like all D&D adaptations should be.
You answered your own question. CRPG community tends to obsess over story and characters rather than how accurately the ruleset was adapted.

>>3698964
Is accuracy really the important thing here?

>>3698725 (OP)
Because it has no STOORY
DA STOORY is so important for casual retards

>>3698991
It has though

>>3698725 (OP)
Because it's based on actual tabletop rpg modules. Most people here don't actually like rpgs, they like fantasy flavored adventure games. It's also a more legit implementation of 3.5e, not like owlcat where everything has been dumbed down and sped up to play like a jrpg.

>>3698725 (OP)
What needs to be discussed? 3.5 builds? Boring. The narrative? Bland. People talk about it as much as you'd expect considering its rocky start. As you get older, you'll realize that not everything has to be talked about all the time.

>>3699037
This place has had many, many bump limit threads and playthroughs of this game before everyone left and the board developed into the sorry boring state it is in now where people make the same exact threads on the same awful games every single day. I'm actually not sure why this board exists anymore. It's clearly not for RPGs and the retards who it was supposed to contain here just spam threads on /v/ every single day anyways. It really needs to be deleted.

>>3699042
See you tomorrow, faggot.

>>3699037
Every decent poster this place has ever had has played through the game here and had plenty to say about it.

>>3699042
Moeblob, just kill yourself. Hell is other people.
>>3699045
...

>>3699009
I know it has, but its not important (as it should)

Important rule to RPG discussion: If you see someone sperging too much about DA STOORY you can safely assume they have shit taste in games.

>>3699037
ToEE isn't build reliant because it's a real rpg and what matters is the journey. Maybe you just don't like these games.

>>3699048
Is that really the Moeblob? he is a fucking legend, nobody slays retarded crpg plebs like him, i learned a lot from moeblob but i dont see him these day, maybe he got banned?

>>3699053
He just moved to /a/ and /v/ and still has the same schtick. Moeblob got banned like 5 times a day here, the janitor absolutely hated him.

>>3699052
Non sequitur. I've beat 'this' game 3 times.

>>3699058
I don't think you know what non sequitr means or how to use it. Are you an ESL?

>>3699060
It means that what he said doesn't follow logically from what I said. You are midwit.

>>3699066
Apparently you don't know how to use it and you don't know how to use midwit either.

Did you know that TOEE has a gay marriage option? Betram the pirate, heh buttpirates, is in Nulb and will marry a male party member if you rescue him.

>>3698964
Balance is the key. Too much focus on storytelling at the cost of gameplay is bad. Too much focus on dungeon crawling and combat is fucking boring. Only autists like that, and not the good kind. The kind that put 10,000 in Runescape because they like doing the same thing over and over.

>>3698725 (OP)
The game is not on Steam & not zoomer-friendly installation process.
Simple as.

>>3699035
sad

>>3699139
Gradually, I began to hate them.

>>3699074
Well, this fact lacks some details.

There are two versions of Bertram:
1) Bertram - the gay one (located at the docks at daytime)
2) Frederick Bertram - the straight one (located in the tavern at nighttime)

First talking to either the straight or gay Bertram makes the other one disappear.

Also, straight Frederick Bertram has better stats.

>>3699148
More bi-erasure from a homosexual.

>>3699148
Based gay pirate fact checker

>>3699175
heh, more like fag checker

>>3699037
>What needs to be discussed? 3.5 builds? Boring.
Why not? The game is still alive thanks to modders & community.
Temple+ is still updating the game a few times per year. Many new base and prestige classes (Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, etc), races, tons of feats and house rules customization controls were added.

Another massive thing that came out recently is Paladin's Cove mod. Completely a new campaign on ToEE engine, comparable with ToEE in terms of its size. Though it's not finished yet, the mod in its current state already gathered a lot of positive feedback in the community.

>>3699288
Offline games don't die. Build talk is boring talk. Unfinished mods mean nothing. I'm simply challenging here, I'm provoking. Asking why don't people talk about a game and not bringing up anything to talk about is fucking dumb.

>>3698964
>CRPG community tends to obsess over story and characters
>>3699128
>Too much focus on dungeon crawling and combat is fucking boring
>>3699317
>Build talk is boring talk.

If that was the case, Underrail wouldn't have become popular.

>>3699325
Why did you quote me? Build talk=/=making your own build, discussion=/=playing. Underrail threads are ultra-boring and prove my point, just a few autists circlejerking.

>>3699037
>As you get older, you'll realize that not everything has to be talked about all the time.
So Pathfinder games are played by children then?

>>3698725 (OP)
as a newfag who has only heard about this in passing, does the turn based aspect actually enhance it? Say what you want about rtwp, I'd not play any of those games turn based with how build obsessive and their intent it is to melt enemies rather than pause
but I'm also a zoom zoom whose brain is tailored to shit like BG3's combat, tedious as it may be

>>3699339
>>3699331

>>3699056
>Moeblob got banned like 5 times a day here, the janitor absolutely hated him
If I was a janny, I would have a lot of fun banning him and seeing his constant mental breakdowns. Like that episode of South Park when Cartman gets trained like a dog.

>>3699349
>does the turn based aspect actually enhance it?
That's the only proper way to implement difficult combats with focusing on tactical aspects.

>I'd not play any of those games turn based with how build obsessive
Once you get used to the game interface, and try yourself every available option, you'll realize that ToEE is a very easy game. No matter how many build mistakes you make, it will still be possible to find a way to beat the game.

>>3699325
Do you think Underrail is in any way relevant? Every niche game will find its audience, but industry is turning heads after those or emulating them.

>>3699049
>DA STOORY you can safely assume they have shit taste in games.
You can be sure He's Canadian, hence She has shit taste.

TOEE actually has too much story and dialogue and NPCs. If all that shit was cut it would be a better game.

>>3699486
Never got the appeal. Underworld seems to tickle some emotions I don't care for.

>>3699492
I still don't get why there's no modern framework for these games and a map editor. Nwn is still alive and bg3 does fairly well with mod creation.

>>3699486
It's relevant to OP's question. People criticize ToEE for having nothing but combat, but at the same time there is almost always at least one Underrail thread in the catalog.

>>3699128
>Balance is the key.
Ironically I disagree. All sorts of RPGs should have the freedom to exist, from your Disco Elysium to Dungeon Rats. No one is forcing me to play any of them if they veer too much into either extreme.

>>3699492
Basically you can just skip all of that. All you need is to get two locations on the global map. There are no mandatory conversations in the game.

>>3699128
Literally the other way around.

You people suck. I ask you to defend your stance abd crickets. Why even post in the first place?

>>3699766
Pity (you).

>>3699768
Pity yourself? You are a degenerate.

>>3699766
What?

>>3699349
imo rtwp shakes out the precision tactical control of turn based and makes the difficult fights more interesting
some people do just like a nice clean strategy game though, and thats fine

I think PF games did it best with letting you swap it on the fly, I just wish it felt a little better to play realtime

>>3700131
The turn based in owlcat games is an absolutely atrocious implementation of pf1e

>>3700140
>The turn based in owlcat games is an absolutely atrocious implementation of pf1e
It's a more faithful implementation of DnD-derived systems than almost anything released in decades. ToEE and Solasta are about all that are more accurate.

>>3698725 (OP)
>not on steam
>can’t get it to run on win10

>>3701163
>t. retard

>>3701164
Sorry, I got better things to do than to spend hours trying to find a working version online that also works on my machine. Shan’t be playing your game.

>>3701170
Good. It's only for the elite RPG enthusiast who possesses the ultra rare skills of tech literacy and the ability to google simple questions. We absolutely don't want plebs like you playing it. See ya!

>>3701163
>what is GOG

>>3701179
I already pirated the gog vers, it dies after the starting logo

>>3701163
>>not on steam
I WANT AN IPHONE! I WANT AN IPHONE!

>>3701187
you need community patches for all the bug fixes anyway, so follow this guide
https://www.gog.com/forum/temple_of_elemental_evil/temple_of_elemental_evil_toee_mod_installation_guide_co8_portraits_temple/page1

>>3701221
You can play the GOG version vanilla without any patches or mods required, have fun, and beat the game just fine.

>>3701298
>GOG version
>vanilla
That's not how they operate.

>>3701298
Probably you were able to do that. But let's be fair here. Not everyone is lucky enough to run ToEE without mods on modern systems.

>>3701300
GoG version is modded. They always add somebody's patches/fixes to their games.

>>3701304
It's patched with official Atari patches, but not modded. Those patches are needed, but they're extremely old.
Community mods provide additional fixes, and some of the fixes are important for those who have issues with launching the game.

>>3701310
It has a modified DLL that was used with Co8 at one point. Raises the level cap, adds spells, has fixes, and feat tweaks. GoG often modifies their games.

>>3699508
Two things anon.
1) What am I looking at?
2) As someone who enjoyed Pentiment, Disco Elysium and Planescape: Torment. What would you recommend I play next?

>>3701560
1.) Filename.
2.) Gone Home.

>>3701567
>Gone Home
Are you referring to this? Surely you're jesting. https://store.steampowered.com/app/232430/Gone_Home/

>>3698725 (OP)
someone redpill me on this. i've been listening to the ost for years but i never played it

>>3701560
>2) As someone who enjoyed Pentiment, Disco Elysium and Planescape: Torment
Suffering with pic related. Also, just give it some time. DE clones are apparently on the rise.

>>3701632
Fun game. Fuck the haters. Give it a go.

>>3701602
nah, it sounds right up your alley.
After that you should try other non-games like Depression Quest

>>3701638
>DE clones
This was a whole genre in the 90s. Adventure games. Start with something like Indiana jokes and the fate of Atlantis, day of the tentacle, or Sam and max hit the road.

i love toee so much bros it's unreal

>>3704802
i hate footfags so much

>>3698725 (OP)
its too autistic in a bad way, and lacks the polish that the infinity engine games had

Like, talking to people in town is very unintuitive, and their dialogue and voices are just off-putting. You talk to some guy about spiders in a nearby forest, then bam, you're instantly in the forest in a battle with spiders, fucking what? I remember trying to buy equipment from some guy and ended up buying and selling the same sword a couple times without realizing it.
>inb4 you're retarded
well I wasnt too stupid for all the other crpgs ive played and loved; this one just doesnt jive with my brain
and the sounds and visuals are not great
like in bg1, in the inventory, every time you select an item, it makes a noise that such an item would make when moved; its a small thing that most people probably never consciously think about, but it makes a big difference

>>3701783
DE is closer to visual novel than adventure game. Adventure games had branching dialogues, puzzles, pixel hunting, item combining, sometimes janky combat, and usually small number of endings. VNs have branching dialogues and multiple edings.

>>3706725
>visual novel
I reject this term as weebslop.
>Adventure games had branching dialogues
Check
>puzzles
Check
>pixel hunting
Admittedly, this rightly went away. I still remember "Only the penitant man shall pass"
>item combining
Check. I think? Isn't there a little of this, I haven't played it since it came out
>sometimes janky combat
Check
>and usually small number of endings
Check. Sounds like it's a point-and-click adventure game, alright.

>>3706724
You know the IE games are designed for people that have never ever played a video game before right

>>3706724
>You talk to some guy about spiders in a nearby forest, then bam, you're instantly in the forest in a battle with spiders, fucking what?
Because you've chosen the dialog option to travel there immediately which wasn't necessary. You could just say something like "okay, bye, i'll check that later".

>>3698725 (OP)
It would filter zoomies who would 100% fuck up their build especially if they pick something that requires some synergy like a bard as their main character. Either that or they'd have to look up everything, both mechanics and how to progress in the story. It's all explained though, it's just that ain't no zoomer reading those long guides.

>>3707580
zoomers really are your bogeymen. lol

This is the ultimate Dungeons&Dragons game, a real (flawed) hidden gem. Combat wise nothing comes near, and the story is pretty cool too (no woke faggotry here)

It's pretty buggy, even the patched version, but more than worth a play

>>3707681
>no woke faggotry here
2nd rpg in history to have gay marriage iirc

>>3707684
>1 gay marriage vs 4 straight marriages

>the effect is just 1 ending slide (out of ~10) that lasts for 5 seconds
literally who cares

>>3707689
i don't care. you do. unless you mean gay marriage isn't woke. and if you do, then LMAO.

>>3707690
saying that game is 'woke' just because it has 1 (one) gay NPC (out of 100+) is not correct

>>3707692
i didn't say the game is woke. i responded to a post.
>no woke faggotry here
>here's woke faggotry, a quest with gay marriage npc recruit
>doesn't count
lmao

>>3707692
theres zero reason to have gay marriage in a video game
its at least a little woke, dont be in denial

>>3707773
>theres zero reason to have gay marriage in a video game
>its at least a little woke, dont be in denial
While a little woke, being a marriage makes It much more tasteful than modern soft porn standards

>>3707835
lol, marriage is to form a family, to have children, to form a building block of society and the future. gay marriage is an oxymoron, it's pointless posturing and indicative of a loss of meaning.

>>3698734
You just don't like rpgs.

>>3707851
NTA but tehre is no role playing in dungeon crawlers. That is why they're called dungeon crawlers or blobbers but not RPGs

^that's bait

>>3707873
In ToEE you can play all kind of roles: good, neutral or evil.

>>3707841
Dont get me wrong, I just said I find It a much more tasteful way to inplementa these things than what BG3, for example, gives players. I find It more palatable when It is a romance that ends in commitment and not in sex, even If It is gay romance to appease the modern freaky crowd

>>3708030
bg3 shows the reality of the homosexual lifestyle, not your cuckservative friendly version.

>>3708064
It still is very jarring and on the face, and not at all condemned, but I supposed you like that, seeing that you know It Very well

>>3708133
lmao, cuckboy got flustered and started spouting gibberish.

>>3699494
ToEE was built on a custom engine that wasn't designed with modding or long-term extensibility in mind. Unlike NWN, which shipped with the Aurora Toolset, ToEE lacked official tools for modding or creating new content.

Also Troika struggled with financial stability as well as Atari, who was going through their own financial troubles during the 2000s and didn't invest in long-term support for ToEE.
NWN had strong backing from BioWare and was designed from the ground up to be a platform for user-generated content, ToEE was essentially abandoned after launch.

Without Troika or Atari around to provide updates or tools, the responsibility falls entirely on the community. While fans have done incredible work (e.g., the Temple+ project, which modernizes the game's engine), it's a massive undertaking with limited resources.

It is known that Tim Cain (or someone from his team) was helping Co8 guys with understanding how the stuff works in the engine but that's it. Community on their own can't recreate the basics of the game.

Anyway Temple+ documented a lot of useful info for those who might be interested in modding ToEE one day:
https://github.com/GrognardsFromHell/TemplePlus/wiki/Modding

I had just tried to play this game, but I can't seem to install temple + due to issues with .dll
I THINK that in general, the issue is that I'm on windows 7, and most things require things that require things that are not supported by it.
Did anyone sucessfully play with Temple + on Windows 7?

>>3710152
I did not but it's not stated anywhere that Win7 is not supported.
Try Temple+ version 1.0.13 https://github.com/GrognardsFromHell/TemplePlus/releases/download/v1.0.13/TemplePlusSetup.exe
If it works, then your issue is related to Temple+ DX11 upgrade that is starting from version 1.0.14. You're probably using an old graphics card. If driver update is available then it could help too.

>>3710166
I got it to work, thanks anon!

>>3707684
It's just lore accurate, D&D is degenerate as fuck, game developers tone it down in their games.

>>3710265
gygaxtalkingaboutwomen.jpg
you mean nu-d&d and bitchboy nerdmen like greenwood

>>3710295

>>3710296
In retrospect, it is literally impossible to say that he was wrong.

>>3698737
3.5 is peak d&d. Also, ToEE is based on 3.0, you ineducated swine.

>>3711666
Sorry, both suck! AD&D is the supreme D&D system for RPGs, not inflated, perfectly tight, with enough variability to make many playthroughs interesting.
The Golden age will come back when AD&D comes back.

>>3698725 (OP)
It's like the Pathfinder games (very similar ruleset), but as a 20+ yo game with no budget, no content and no QoL. Just a short dungeon crawler with a crusty 800x600 UI that doesn't scale to higher resolutions.

IMO, just play a random TB tactics game over this, the genre is very healthy nowadays. King Arthur, War Tales etc.

>>3698750
>Why isn't it on Steam?
It's some weird WotC thing, they took down NWN2 from Steam, and both NWN2 and ToEE are GOG exclusive.

Just pirate the GOG installers I guess, they're easy to find.

>>3711794
Except these games lacks Dungeon crawling?

>>3711794
>It's like the Pathfinder games
It's actually a lot cleaner and easier to understand than owlshit and the level design is leagues better.

>>3711666
>ToEE is based on 3.0
This is incorrect.

>>3701560
>What would you recommend I play next?
Russian roulette.

You guys remember that fellow on here who played through the whole game with a party composed of one Druid and a bunch of chickens?
That guy was cool.

>>3713661
oh yeah that was fun, the videos he uploaded might still be on youtube
I hope chicken anon is doing well.

>>3713671
I didn't know anything about the game when he was posting those videos and pictures but I have since learned that this game can be somewhat grueling. Must have been pretty tough to do it with a chicken party. A real /vrpg/ hero.

>>3713676
and a real human bean

>>3713661
>>3713671
>>3713676
>>3713679
thanks for remembering, anons
glad you liked that playthrough

>the videos he uploaded might still be on youtube
yep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I4kDPTppQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I4kDPTppQ0

>>3713759
correcting the first link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaaPxf010cc

>>3707873
>no role playing
There is no role playing in any of the games you thing are crpgs. Lets face it, picking a pre-written dialogue option from a list (especially as they are all mostly flavor text) is not role playing. The defining feature of crpgs, like with any game, are the mechanical parts of their gameplay. The dependence on character attributes when determining outcomes in gameplay as well as managing character attributes being central to gameplay is one such feature.
>not RPGs
Computer games are not rpgs. An rpg is a board game.

>>3713345
This. The only game that ever used the 3e rules was Neverwinter Nights.
>>3711666
3e and especially 3.5 are a degeneration of D&D into a number bloat simulator by Wizard of the Coast (much like what MTG has become). It's an attempt to turn D&D in MTG: the rpg.

>>3713759
Glad you are still here, bud. How grueling was that playthrough?

>>3713834
And Icewind Dale 2. And the GBA Eye of the Beholder.

>>3713759
>>3713762
based

>>3713860
>grueling
Not really, the game is kinda short anyway. I liked that run, especially the fact that I didn't initially expect the game would allow me to do this kind of playthrough and eventually complete it.
It's always interesting to apply your game knowledge and explore all kinds of workarounds when you're limited to some weird, challenging and fun rules.

>>3713898
I have the same mindset, powergaming in singleplayer games is such a robber of joy if you get stuck into that mindset.
Occasionally that can be fun too.

>>3713898
Were they all rogues?

>>3713938
yeah, this how they all looked at the very end

>>3711741
interesting opinion, but i agree with the opposite of what you said

I'm a mega-shitter, so I do the stat pull cheat.

>>3698725 (OP)
It was unplayably buggy without fanpatches

>>3698736
>lists three bad games while thinking he has a point

>>3711741
Seems like you just hate new things. 3rd edition is better balanced and objectively provides more tactical depth.

>>3718681
>Seems like you just hate new things
he says, bumping an old thread and reply to an old post.

>>3718681
>3E
>better balanced
L O L

>>3718792
more linear and predictable character progression system, more consistent spell categorization, no single class domination, unified roll system... do I really have to elaborate more?

>>3719250
Yes, far more. I need at least 3 character limit posts to consider you opinion even partially valid.

>>3719250
None of those have anything to do with improving balance. The first one made it worse because classes were progressing at the same rate but not with similar power.

>>3719493
>The first one made it worse
I could only partially agree with this. AD&D had severe disparities between classes. Everyone remembers how magic-users were extremely weak at low levels but became overwhelmingly powerful at the end, while fighters had no meaningful way to even compete.

>>3721141
>magic-users were extremely weak at low levels but became overwhelmingly powerful at the end, while fighters had no meaningful way to even compete
What's bad about this?

>>3721151
When one class is eventually significantly stronger than the other one? This is literally definition of a bad balance.

>>3721141
And that's also true of 3E, except spellcasters aren't weak at low levels in 3E.

>>3721183
Why contain it? Let the bodies pile up in the streets.

>>3721151
Spherical cow balance is shit.

>>3721183
But one is useful during the beginning, one is useful at the end. Perfectly balanced.
Besides, one can be crippled by taking their spellbook, the other can slay enemies with a chair leg.

The whole meme is overwrought in tabletop anyway, since most parties never make it that far and any significant threat requires all hands on deck.

>>3721183
>When one class is eventually significantly stronger than the other one? This is literally definition of a bad balance.
WHY YES, HOW DID DECADES PASS BY AND NOT A SINGLE SOUL THOUGHT OF THIS.
All classes must be equal!

Every snowflake at the table must be heckin' validated and John cannot make me feel less powerful than him for even a second.
What, you control the whole party in vidya? Irrelevant, this is a /tg/ thread.

>>3721206
>being retarded
It matters even more in video games because there isn't a GM pulling the strings and controlling your party doesn't fix it.

>>3721232
>GM
heh
>It matters even more in video games
No, it doesn't. You control the whole party and it's obvious in doing so that the whole party makes fights easier. Who would the wizard buff without a fighter? Who would turn undead without a cleric? Who would actually play a rogue without being able to control everyone?

People who complain about balance in party based games have main character syndrome.

>>3721265
Yeah, it does, you're fucking retarded. We're talking about a game where the Cleric takes a huge shit all over the Fighter at the Fighter's job for 16 out of 20 levels.

>>3721273
Which doesn't matter in a video game with a full party.

>>3721289
It does matter and you're dumb as fuck for thinking it doesn't.

>>3721294
You can't demonstrate that it does. You can have all of these characters, in any combination, in your party, they all bring something to the table.

>>3721301
I can and it's easy. The game loses depth for having bad balance.

>>3721305
How exactly? I'm not fucking with you, I just can't see it. You can have all these characters in your party, in any combination you want. A lack of equivalence between them just gives your more room to tailor your experience. They all have some use and you aren't playing a single character. What exactly is the problem?

>>3721307
Because you have a limited amount of character slots. If Fighter and Fighter+ existed alongside each other, noone would pick Fighter for any reason other than fucking around. That's what Cleric really is in ToEE once you're past level 2 - their only advantage is being able to access the full combo of Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise and Improved Trip faster.

>party member dies before you have resurrects
>have to load and do the whole fight again
How do you even play this shit

>>3721310
There are plenty of available slots and people can and do pick fighter because having a feat monkey who can use any equipment is useful. I mean, a guy here beat the game with a party of chickens.

>>3721315
People making shitty parties on purpose doesn't mean anything.

>>3721322
Why doesn't it? The purpose of a video game is to have fun. Options are fun and not all options have to be optimal to be fun. Fighter is a fun option, you can do a lot with the class and still have your cleric and mage and rogue and whatever else in your party. If the game was so challenging that you had to pick certain options to beat it, and so custom party choices were traps, that'd be one thing, but it isn't. These are really just inherited tabletop beefs where people didn't like feeling lesser in group. Nothing to do with full party vidya.

>>3721326
Trap options are not and never will be fun. Let me know how far you get into KotC with 4 Knights.

>>3721336
I beat it using all of whopping 3 classes. Was fun.

>>3721336
>you can’t play Knights of the Chalice as a party of Knights of the Chalice
What did he mean by this

>>3698725 (OP)
Is there really an element of evil in DnD?

>>3721394
>We have much evil to fight; we have no time for idleness.
-Ajantis
>This forest has a sense of evil about it.
-Ajantis
>This city has a sense of... evil about it.
-Ajantis
>This dungeon has a sense of evil about it.
-Ajantis
>Evil will always fail against courage and honor.
-Ajantis
>Evil must be purged without mercy.
-Ajantis

>>3721338
KotC only has 3 classes.

>>3721397
>No ajantis. You are the monsters.

>>3721450
I know.

>>3721311
>>party member dies before you have resurrects
Return to the village and there are two places with NPCs who can resurrect your dead party members: druid's grove (cheaper) or church.

>>3698725 (OP)
I like it a lot but i can't resonate with Greyhawk, it is so insipid and generic.

I just remember it being a broken piece of shit that got bad reviews when it launched. So it never caught on

Which is the better combat-focsed CRPG, Temple or Icewind Dale?

>>3722002
Temple, by far.

>>3722002
>rtwp
hard pass

>>3722002
you will get nothing but skubwars with questions like this
for people who like rtwp, iwd
for people who like tb, temmental

>>3721990
It's basically Forgotten Realms, but on a different planet. Even non-human deities are the same.
My main issue with this setting is that there is just not enough Greyhawk content at all. Huge worlds require huge amounts of lore. But there is barely anything apart from a couple of old Gygax' books.

>>3716218
I do the opposite: stat boost for enemies, as the game is not difficult enough.

the game deserves a proper remaster

>>3726418
why?

>>3726449
if we forget about bugs, it is still one of the best CRPGs in multiple aspects

>>3721990
I honestly find a fantasy setting more interesting when the wide world isnt that overlyspecific and overlydeveloped, especially when the smaller region in which the game is set in is better developed and explored.
Greyhawk is ok because most old modules of D&D fit in It without much fanfarre and still makes sense because, well, It is always a localized dynamic.
In forgotten realmente in which every region and locations is more well defined and detailed you have to find ever more reasons to fit things. And this is How we get a ton of planes of existance and dimensions and multiverses etc

>>3726494
Another anon, but greyhawk falls into that grey (pni) zone where it has enough shackles like gods n shit to kinda restrict building from it very wildly while having them be so generic and bland you might as well blow the setting up and start from scratch on your own. In other words nothing > greyhawk and also more interesting settings > greyhawk.
Greyhawk offers very little as a named setting.

>>3726480
so?

>>3726629
then why can't we have a modern, stable and available-to-everyone version of a classic?

>>3726744
because it wouldn't make money.

>>3726494
You're describing 4E's points of light.

>>3726817
Perhaps the only good concept to come from this edition

raise thread

no idea who Ron Fish is but definitely a genius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfHGJTzImBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MOvDv_Gr_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dql2sEiu-cI

>>3721394
They don't call it "Satan's game" for nothing.

holy axiomatic flaming bump

>>3730132
>hey Ron can you make some music for our medieval fantasy game?
>sure
>makes sci-fi thriller music
what did he mean by this?

>>3732526
He actually created a perfect dark ambient fit for the game locations.
Starting with comfy and peaceful Hommlet theme that reinforces the idea of “home”— a place to rest and interact with NPCs who haven’t yet succumbed to the Temple’s evil. It conveys safety and simplicity, almost like a lullaby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnSVmJAhObk

But then it goes into dark Moathouse theme which is a huge contrast - just as it should be - since you're now stepping into your first dangerous place full of dread and mystery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MOvDv_Gr_o
After completing the game so many times, I'm still getting goosebumps when this one starts playing.

Another great contrast is how Nulb's theme is different from Hommlet's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2HELkTVjbM
It's a perfect antithesis of Hommlet’s warmth, since this place is becoming lawless den of cultists and decay.

To me it almost feels like the game was made for the soundtrack, not the other way around.

Nobody plays D&D on a computer for the combat.
>oohhh I'm winning dice rolls, how exciting

>>3732775
Wrong.

>>3699128
Disastrous take.

>>3732775
>>oohhh I'm winning dice rolls, how exciting
This critique can be applied to any game which has any randomized element (which is almost every existing game).

>>3732615
>To me it almost feels like the game was made for the soundtrack, not the other way around.
You seem retarded.

The fan made expansion, keep on the borderlands, is also pretty good if you liked temple of elemental evil and want more.

https://youtu.be/hnSVmJAhObk?si=avMQbiy3dulWkmNl

One of the greatest town themes ever made

Are there any good reasons to try "Temple Of Evil" mod for Solasta?

>>3698725 (OP)
>It's the most faithful adaptation of 3.5E D&D
can this meme finally die. this game was and is shit. Even Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor from Ubi Soft is better.

>>3737714
>Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor
That's 3rd Edition, not 3.5.

>>3737714
>can this meme finally die.
It's not a meme. It's the truth.

>>3730132
>>3732615
That is truly impressive as a soundtrack. Yoink, stolen for my ttrpg game.

>>3699492
It is spacing issue. You start by doing side quests in starting town, do big-ish moat dungeon, then you get to second town with more quest and then is the temple with four levels of fighting.
So people who like story and talks are upset about temple itself hack and slash.
While folks liking fighting shit are upset about first part of game.

>>3698725 (OP)
>Why is this game not discussed more frequently among the CRPG community?
Because it was and still is pretty bad.
>Launched buggy as fuck, like all Troika games
>Also unfinished as fuck, like all Troika games
>Converting a 1E Module to a 3.5E framework wasn't a good idea
>The adaptation itself is not particularly good even if you want to close on eye on the various ludicrous shit like a starter module for extremely low level adventurers featuring a fucking Balor (that can summon other balors) as a boss
>ToEE was also a boring module back in the days and unfortunately a lot of that boredom is also in this videogame, nobody likes the FEDEX quest chains in Hommlet despite being almost compulsory, especially for players who just start out with no knowledge of the game
>Game is almost entirely dedicated to fighting, but fighting isn't good for a lot of reasons (nonexistence balance, poor encounter design, bugs, some completely busted spells and itemization) and the game is so short, unfinished and lacking in critical features that it doesn't really feel good at any point
>T+ and Co8 sort of fixed some issues (after a decade from the game's launch), mostly by adding much needed content, but also can't fix other problems, especially the mindboggling lack of a lot of basic features such as being able to break open doors and chests, which also leads to a possible hard lock state in one of the fucking prologues should you not start with a rogue
Amazing music though, I just wish the rest of the game was even half as good as the OST

>>3738287
TToEE has the worst start of all games I have ever played.

>>3738295
I like the idea of nine possible prologues, different one for each alignment. That looked interesting and promising.
Not many games have something similar to that.

>>3738347
I mean the fucking village

>>3738351
Well, that's understandable. Good thing, that Co8 mod gives an alternative for the FedEx quests which is Welkwood Bog - easy location with goblins designed for level 1 party.

>>3738287
>such as being able to break open doors and chests, which also leads to a possible hard lock state in one of the fucking prologues should you not start with a rogue
The example you've given is so rare. I can't remember all of the intros, but once you're in Hommlet you can beat the game with any party setup you want. Being able to open locked doors and chests is not a mandatory requirement, there is always some workaround. You can even beat the game solo with any class.

>>3738351
What's so bad about this village? Is it just the fetch quests or is there more on top of that?

>>3698734
Only dungeon crawler in this list is Icewind Dale. Please stop drunk posting in threads about games you've never played.

>>3698725 (OP)
It's typical Troikaware. Totally lopsided and excellent in some regards while complately broken in others. It has very good combat but otherwise it's half baked as an rpg.

>>3698725 (OP)
I bought it when it came out, game didn't fuck work half the time. After like 10+ years of fanpatches it is now in a playable state and people act like "what a tragedy this game is so overlooked" it wasn't overlooked, it was shit, shit that didn't even fucking work, fans spent a decade fixing it and now its good, but the original game was broken ass and was rightly maligned and forgotten in its time.

>>3738497
Many people liked it though, same as with all Troika games. That's why some people started a cult to fix it.
I don't know where this "nobody talks about it" thing is coming from anyway. Gets threads all the time here.
My contention was always that it was a bad module to adapt in the first place.

>>3710296
based GG

>>3718681
eat shit. 3E was made to sell minatures.

>>3721141
that's by design. Gary G intentionally made spellcasters weak to stop them from taking over the game. how powerful a magic-user is allowed to become depends on the discretion of the DM. If DM is smart he wont hand out spells like TIme Stop which were never intended for PCs.

>>3721183
its not supposed to be balanced. classes are basically jobs and the player is supposed to play the role. Dnd is meant to be played in a group.

>>3721990
that's the whole point. its not populated by overpowered twinks running all over the place like in FR.

>>3740849
This is just incorrect. The rise of 3E coincided with broader trends in tabletop gaming, including the popularity of miniature-heavy games like Warhammer. WotC likely recognized the commercial potential of miniatures as accessories, but this was part of a larger strategy rather than the sole purpose of 3E's design.
D&D miniatures game launched in 2003, two years after 3E.

>>3740852
You can research spells in D&D. The real thing is that high level campaigns shouldn't be about straight up fights and more about politics and world shaking threats and planar travel and apotheosis.

>>3701560
>Pentiment, Disco Elysium
Not rpgs.

>>3740849
Like everything WotC does. Exists just for power creep and to sell junk.

best girl

>>3745501
Pentiment
>C&C: dialogue options shape relationships with NPCs, decisions affect the story's outcome (multiple endings), moral and ethical dilemmas influence the narrative
>character progression & customization: selectable background, skills and knowledge affect how the story unfolds
>branching narrative & multiple paths
>skill checks & stat-based interactions, background choices open or restrict options in conversations
>relies on intellectual and social challenges (similar to tabletop RPG skill checks)
>quest structure & side content with multiple solutions
>explorable town, NPCs have schedules and react to the player's actions

Disco Elysium
>deep character creation & customization, skills shape dialogue, perception and problem-solving approaches
>stat-based skill checks & dice rolls
>dialogue options reflect different ideologies, moods, and mental states
>C&C: decisions alter relationships with NPCs, major plot branches, failures can lead to new unexpected story paths
>progression & experience system
>multiple ways to investigate the murder, non-linear exploration
>immersive world & NPC interactions
>inventory & equipment system
>quest structure & side content
>conflicts can be resolved through dialogue and skill checks

Yup, both are RPGs.

>>3732615
Moathouse Exterior sounds like it could be in Blade Runner.

>>3732775
Yes people do and it's tactical combat not dice rolling.

>>3750866
So visual novels and strategy games are rpgs according to you? Storyfags never change.

>>3748293
>the goddess of cockrot
>best girl
Anon pls. I know you're desperate but even someone like you could do better.

Plus everyone knows the best girl is the underage druid girl you can marry.

>>3751450
>Zuggtmoy was alien in both body and mind, her only desire being to infect living creatures with her spores, turning them into her mindless slaves before they were reduced to naught but rotting and decomposing hosts for her fungi, mushrooms, and molds.

imagine the smell

>>3721990
I think Greyhawk's detractors are coming at it from the wrong point of view.

It's sparser lore and lack of overpowered characters save for a few like Mordenkainen are a strength to give the DM something to work with. It's a frame that the DM and players build upon. Worldbuilding with a starter kit if you will.

FR is so full of lore that you can't walk two steps without stepping into a faction conflict. It's so easy to violate the lore that you may as well make up your own shit in FR anyway.

Besides, I prefer the more gritty, but not really grimdark tone of the setting. It feels very 80s sword and sorcery.

That being said, please ignore the 2024 DM guide's Greyhawk. It's shit

>>3752504
Basically, to put things into perspective, did you ever have one of these things as a kid? Speaking of course to the millennials here. Remember how you just made up names for the characters, why the gold and black knights were fighting? Remember how not even the two CD ROM games or the cassette tape could keep the gold king's name consistent? Maybe you spiced things up with other toys, possibly from other GA sets?

That's Greyhawk, just make shit up with the framework you're given. You're just doing it in a more mature manner now.

>>3721183
Not at all. It's very easy to die as a mage, even at like 10th level. No HP. Have to be cute with powers to survive and must have tank around. Very vulnerable until the highest levels.

would have been nice if that could have been expanded to have the other major modules, such as leading up to the climatic battle against Lloth in her steam spider mech.

now that I think about it, there could be a messload of other side quests from the Demonweb pits itself, with the lots of doors and like there.

>>3732775
There's an irony to this.

>>3751450
>Playing 2014 5e
>DM busts out ToEE
>play Drow Rogue
>Dual Hand Crossbows with an Artifice Infusion to generate their own bolts
>Friends playing a Druid, Barbarian, and Cleric
>Absolute crawl through the 2 towns and leading up to the Temple
>6 month Crawl through the Temple and each Elemental plane
>level 12
>Prepare for final, spend all our gold
>Buy 2 +3 Fire Boltcaster Hand Crossbows (1d6+2d8) and a temporary blessing to increase critical damage by 1 multiplier.
>Summon Zuggybuggy
>Assassin Ambush
>Dual Sneak Attack from Range
>2 Natural 20s, for each hand crossbow, 10d6 + 4d8 3x Critical.
>52+5+6+24×3
>Zuggy dead, first attack round, first action, before initiative was even rolled.

What an anticlimactic experience for 10 months of sessions.

>>3757486
Sneak attack is once per turn in 5E

>>3757584
he played baby mode where the gm let him house rule and fudged all the rolls

>>3757584
>>3757590
According to my DM he counted it by action, rather than turn. And Dual Wielding is a single action letting me apply it to both weapons. He did tell me I couldn't stack it with Action Surge or Extra Attack. (He more or less forbade multiclassing for that campaign anyway) He was also weird about Cunning Action: Hide, never giving me clear indication on if I had Stealth advantage for Sneak Attack or not during combat. So more often than not I had to Ambush to get Advantage and a clean Sneak Attack in or use Invisibility.

>>3757486
5e issue. In ToEE Zuggtmoy is immune to critical and sneak attacks and has DR (20/Good,Cold).

>>3751373
Blade Runner OST is one of the main cornerstones of ambient-electronica. It's actually hard to find to an ambient OST that would not be influenced by it in some way at least.

>>3707580
If you have to follow a guide it’s a shit game, no exceptions.

>>3765800
You don't need to read a guide. You do need to read the rules, which is true for every RPG that isn't baby simple.

truth be told, I just plain don't like it.

I'm actually about to play it right now, but I find myself with the eternal dilemma
Sorcerer or Wizard
Without knowing shit about the game it's impossible to tell which is the better choice, as that shit is pretty much a coinflip with D&D games played blindly, as you never know what they're gonna do with itemization, scrolls, resting restrictions, prolonged battles, spell variety, utility spell usefulness, and so on

>>3768948
Wizard is much more versatile so it's much better for the first run.
Sorc has to know which spells to pick, Wizard too, but also Wiz can copy spells from scrolls you can find and buy.
You might say that Wizard has less casts per day available. This is true, but Wizard also has Scribe Scroll feat from the start, so basically you can cast your available spell as many times you want. And in order to do that you just need to have 1 skill point of Use Magic Device.

>>3768954
I mean, I know how they work, I'm quite familiar with 3.5 (you also don't need UMD on Wizard unless it's to cast divine spells, unless TOEE changed that for some reason)
What I meant was that playing D&D games blind makes it a toss-up, as before you play it or look it up, you never know if it's going to be generous with resting and activation items (scrolls/wands), as IF it is, it largely negates the main advantage of the Sorcerer. Though in this case, all I had to see to know I should go Wizard was the existence of crafting feats, including yes, Scribe Scroll. But also Craft Wondrous Item, which is way harder to take advantage of using a Sorcerer for obvious reasons.

>>3768948
Getting spell levels 1 level ahead of the Sorc, bonus feats, and INT being a better stat than CHA almost always makes Wizard better. It's only not true in IWD2, where you don't learn spells per level and have to pick them up on scrolls which don't keep up, and the handful of games that go epic level IF you're playing epic level modules because they equalize there.

>>3698725 (OP)
It's just boring. It's good but boring.

TOEE isn't my favourite game but i wish we had gotten more like it from troika. There was a good skeleton there for more games. I would have loved if we had gotten a module thats a bit less "vanilla" adapted with the same systems.
I was sad when I watched that tim cain video where he talked about them pitching more dnd games after TOEE but they all got rejected.

>>3772569
>be named Troika
>release three buggy and unfinished games
>leave
What did they mean by this

>>3772573
rushed deadlines by publishers
3 game devs released 3 games in 3 years

>>3773017
Arcanum and Bloodlines weren't rushed, they had three years each. Troika were just terrible about scoping and susceptible to getting guilt-tripped by publishers into promising more than they could reasonably deliver, which Tim Cain said himself.

>>3773017
None of the games had rushed schedules for their time.Arcanum schedule was not rushed, toee was expected to have a small dev tiem because it was a video game adoption of a small module and Bloodlines was a pretty lenient dev time since they even allowed delays which was a big no no in the industry back then.
Arcanum failed because Cain was in his commie phase and lete everybody had a equal vote in design leading to the clusterfuck of combat and leveling up system.
TOEE failed because it was a adoption of a borning module coupled with Cain being high constantly from painkillers.
Bloodlines failed because a studio known for technical incompetence decided to take a unfinished engine for its make or die game.

And Troika fallout would also fail because the ip was dead after the arpg game.

>>3773029
>None of the games had rushed schedules for their time.
This is not true at least for Bloodlines. Original deadline was early 2005. Activision forced an early launch in November 2004 to piggyback on HL2 release because of the Source engine hype at that time. This resulted in no time for polish (combat/AI were broken) and the fact that 30% of content was cut or incomplete.

>failed failed failed
All three games actually turned a profit. Arcanum sold 243,000 copies ($8.8M revenue). ToEE sold 128,000 ($5.2M). Bloodlines underperformed initially but broke even via long-tail sales.
That's fine for niche games, but of course this is nowhere near mainstream hits, so publishers were not satisfied.

>>3773301
Iirc bloodlines came out a couple days before HL2 did, making it the first source engine game to the market

>>3773343
After, the contract forbid them from releasing before Half-Life 2. This screwed them a bit because Activision froze the project a few months before release because they didn't want to spend any more on it.

Honestly, while the game itself is mediocre due to being a module adaptation, I do genuinely think it's still if not the best, then certainly one of the best adaptations of D&D into a videogame format, and certainly the best for 3.5 specifically... whatever my feelings on the edition itself are.
At least for me, it was extremely easy to get used to, and the expandable radial menu made it easy to go through even the most elaborate turns pretty effortlessly. Extra points for actually having several features many adaptations decide to omit for one reason or another.
I have mixed opinions on Circle of Eight and Temple+ but even with all the faults, they still improve noticeably on the experience... although, in the end, barely change the core issue with it, that being "you can only endure the module so many times before losing all interest".
If only modding it wasn't such a pain in the ass... but much like Arcanum (although to a far lesser extent, considering Drog seems to be literally the only man capable of wrangling the code, if he's even still alive) the thought of third-party alteration beyond the surface level never even entered the mind of the team.

bump

>>3711666
D&d is entirely shit slop, no matter which edition. It's the CoD of rpgs (proper rpgs, not crapgs)

>>3698725 (OP)
I fucking love it with the ToEE mode. And I love 3.5e.
It's a pretty straightforward game in that it's mostly about combat and exploring a pretty large dungeon, but that's not a bad thing.

>>3698725 (OP)
I don't like games where you make the whole party
feels sovlless unironically

I got filtered by the fight at the end of the mouthouse with the evil cleric and huge group of fighters.
Those guys with reach weapons are a pain in the ass.

>>3782549
>I don't like games where you make the whole party
>feels sovlless unironically
Guess this is just a matter of personal preference. I haven't had party members I liked in like 20+ years, and greatly prefer a custom party of generics in literally any cRPG, to the point that sometimes I don't even want to play them if I'm going to be stuck with shitty "companions" I hate. [/spoiler]Maybe I'm just old[/spoiler]

>>3783204
>Those guys with reach weapons are a pain in the ass.
the easiest solution (one of many) to kill most of them in one turn would be a fireball - the scroll can be bought right from the start, though it might have not been available in vanilla

bump

>>3698725 (OP)
Imagine this game but with proper story and more content.

>>3713864
And KotOR 1 and 2 with rules adapted for SW universe.

>>3790571
Imagine Pathfinder WoTR on ToEE engine and being pure 3.5e

>>3791266
That would be so sick.
Would you backport mythic or just do epic levels?

>>3791266
I'd rather play Kingmaker desu

>>3791541
mythics have to be there due to plot reasons in any case, so it's either backport or need to find a way for them to co-exist with epic levels

>>3791545
I'd be fine with kingmaker too. I like both stories a lot.

>>3791600
Epic + Mythic would be sick, but probably too much, unless it's the TTRPGs version, since that's a lot weaker than Owlcat's interpretation of it if I'm not wrong.
Back-porting Mythic onto 3.5e is not very hard at all.

>>3791266
Tbh epic campaign wouldn't work with ToE-style gameplay. I like that in WoTR i can just crush loads of trash in real time and still have some proper RPG combat when fighting stronger enemies in turns.
ToE works best with basic bitch party of nobodies fighting rats and transforming over the course of the game into party of heroes fighting dragons and giants.
Being a demi-god by midgame would either require epic setting something like planscape/spoiler] or something like Tomb of Annihilation.

bump

bump

>>3793456
>tomb of annihilation
Is that the one where a group of players gathered enough wealth to buy a herd of cows and then drove the herd through the dungeon to set off all the traps?

bump

>>3698725 (OP)
I tried a few times over the years. Its painfully autistic in the wrong ways. It has no polish, no soul. Such a shame.

>>3699042
so I should go to /v/ now?

>>3757999
Your DM either babied you or doesn't understand the rules, that's why you were able to utterly fuck the campaign. You're a wannabe powergaming faggot but DM has no one but himself to blame for enablVHTR4ing it.

>>3698725 (OP)
ToEE was pretty sick, i think i had either the demo or the full game that came with the dnd player's guide for 3e. didn't have a computer to run it well but it still was amazing.

I think 3e dnd games are too complex for most people to port over, as stated by beamdog in the past which is why we will never see IWD2 until another company decides to sack up and remaster it. Was hoping Aspyr would maybe step up but they are kind of getting shit on with nwn2 atm.

bump

What's the most definitive version to play this game now? Pure vanilla or mods?

>>3809991
The most bug-free experience is delivered by Circle Of Eight modpack with Temple+ mod
https://www.gog.com/forum/temple_of_elemental_evil/temple_of_elemental_evil_toee_mod_installation_guide_co8_portraits_temple/page1

>>3809991
Troika games are the exception to the rule of playing vanilla first.

>>3809991
Play temple+ if you just want bug fixes
Co8 changes too much shit and adds shit, even their “lite” variant