Thread 3763985

>put tons of enemies that give diseases, ability damage, etc. in the early game
>early game is timed, with no good indication that it is timed and how much time you have
>early game companions start with bad builds
>constant pre-buffing
>turn the early game into a slog

Did Owlcat set out to make Act 1 intentionally annoying?

>>3763985 (OP)
The time limit is so generous that you would need to be utterly incompetent to actually fail it.
>disease
Buy some scrolls retard and if you get hit thst often you are doing something wrong.
>ability damage
Cast dearh ward and protection from poison and get sone scrolls to cure it.The games balance is shit,but this is just a skill issue.

>>3763985 (OP)
>owlcat
Incapable clowns laundering money

>>3764020
>add extra steps to the constant tedium, because that's sure to make it less tedious and be better paced
>don't have direct cures? have resistance scrolls or spells that don't prevent it and require constant checks to see if it is cured eventually
>hope you love reloading and constant start and stop!

>>3763985 (OP)
I have to play this on normal.
I tried Kingmaker but it's impossible

>>3764027
The game expects you to actually learn and master its mechanics, yes.

>>3763985 (OP)
>>turn the early game into a slog
Just like the midgame and the endgame. Enjoy your buffs, cuck.

>>3763985 (OP)
You people are the reason RT is so easy that the combat gets boring by act 3.
Stop fucking whining and lower the difficuly if you can't be bothered to read what your spells do and what enemy effects do.

>>3763985 (OP)
>>put tons of enemies that give diseases, ability damage, etc. in the early game
Avoiding negative effects is part of the challenge of the game, same as managing spell slots or positioning in combat. Turn on 'remove negative effects on rest' if you're not interested in that.
>>early game is timed, with no good indication that it is timed and how much time you have
There's nothing wrong with time limits. Makes things tense.
>early game companions start with bad builds
The early game builds are fine. Seelah is a classic paladin, her starting feats may not be the most powerful but make her a good first companion for people new to the game. Cam is a perfect early game companion, coming with hexes means you don't need to worry about her becoming useless three combats into the day. Same for Ember. Lann good simply by virtue of having the stats to be built as an effective archer or divine caster. Woljif is good. Daeran is good. Nenio is a classic wizard, and a fairly optimised one too.
>constant pre-buffing
Inherent part of the 3.5e/pf1 ruleset. Download a buff mod.

>>3763985 (OP)

Timed stuff aside (can´t really argue with that) Difficulty can vary a lot depending on how familiar you are with the game. With a good build and a single merc you can pretty much trivialize act 1 without needing buffs except for the absolute most crucial of encounters (and some times not even that depending on items/ spells and whatnot)

>>3764109
Both suffer from a way bigger flaw which is powerbuilding your way out of any meaningful interactions. More stat-bloat (wotr's answer to difficulty) in RT would mean nothing. There isn't an ounce of tactics in owlcuck games

>>3764109
none of what op is describing has anything to do with difficulty and rogue trader becomes easy because of how broken the game is. maxing out iconoclast + cassia let's you get a full cassia turn and someone else's turn of choice and then they can do a heroic at directly after, black ring or not. all before any enemy has a chance to do anything.

the problem with owlcat's games is incredibly poor balance, where some things are either garbage or op as shit, with the op stuff often not requiring any thought to do. oh and dogshit enemy ai.

>>3764109
>You people are the reason RT is so easy that the combat gets boring by act 3.
I don't believe he's an Owlcuck dev, the reason why combat in RT utterly sucks.

>>3764147
More stats and debilitating debuffs that needed clearing would absolutely keep combat relevant for longer. But they stepped back from that because of the choir of whining journalists and people who will complain endlessly about having to pause, read the debuffs and abilities of the enemies you're facing and sometimes having to reload and adapt your tactics to them.
Oh and also refusing to bring rouges or use invisibility spells or other measures avaiable to them to scout out dungeon ahead of them, then complaining about "forced reloading" when their team unsurprisingly got wiped out by a group of level draining, touch-AC targeting ghosts in the undead toomb...
All this despite neither WotLK or PF:K beeing more challengeing that BG2 was back in it's day.
But it is what it is, gaming is just a hobby for casuals these days, and "hard" or sometimes even "very hard" has replaced "normal" as the developers intended game difficuly seetting.

>>3764166
More buffs and debuffs is a very bad way to "improve" the game. it doesn't make it more challenging and just create bloat, which slows the game down for no actual benefit. This doesn't make the game more challenging either.
You also make the mistake of thinking that everyone loves scouting out with invis every single location in the game and analyzing every single enemy beforehand, while also thinking this somehow has anything to do with challenge. It doesn't.
You would get annihilated in Go playing against any half decent Go player and that game has no buffs, stealth or anything like that while being several times more challenging than WotR.

WotR does or enables several things which makes it even less of a challenge, like the excessive pre buffing you can do, especially after a reload when you know exactly what the enemy can do (brainless trial & error) to further invalidate any hint of challenge in the game. Stat bloat is also the worst way possible to try to increase challenge.
The "challenge" in WotR is closer to walking through a maze so many times you eventually learn it by heart, which is the opposite of challenge.

>>3763985 (OP)
>time limit
Literally never noticed this. You're just a retarded mutt.

Can the crusade battles be ignored?

>>3764295
There's an auto-resolve setting but I think it locks you out of some important magic items. If you really don't like them, just set the crusade difficulty to 'effortless'.

>>3764176
This isn't Go, it's an offshoot of 3.5 edition D&D. A lot of people like this style of gameplay.

>>3764294
>"Literally never noticed this"
>calls others retarded
It directly limits what you can do, cutting off content and is the equivalent of 3x 8 hour rests roughly.

And you not noticing it proves OPs point.

>>3764363
>This isn't Go, it's an offshoot of 3.5 edition D&D.
The point was that WotR isn't tactical or difficult at all. It's closer to trial & error and bloated design.
An enemy appearing 5 steps from where you are now with several niche bullshit spells, buffs, debuffs and resistances and you getting smoked the first time because there was no way for you to know about all this is, but the second time you win because you could pre-buff and shit, is not difficulty.

>A lot of people like this style of gameplay.
Bad argument to make, because no matter how bad or deranged something is, there will always be people that like it. It's also almost always incorrect, because they don't specifically like X, but they might like a byproduct of it that could still be achieved in another better way.

And in the case of Rogue Trader, slapping on more debuffs, buffs and pre-buffing would solve absolutely nothing with the combat or balance of that game while just creating more problems and tedium. Plus just more trial and error (which is the most thoughtless thing ever). This shit got so bad in WotR people even made mods to automate it, it was that thoughtless and tedius.

>>3763985 (OP)
If you can't get past act 1 then you are not fit to be Knight Commander.
Skill issue nigga. Git gud

>>3764489
That content is negligible, the main thing you'd miss is one companion if you don't free him. Not a big loss.

>>3764304
better than Kingdom management I guess

>>3764491
>The point was that WotR isn't tactical or difficult at all. It's closer to trial & error and bloated design.
It's not trial error. The challenge of third edition D&D and its derivatives is to do your homework and comprehend it. Everything is a test of this. Monte Cook spelled it out in his Ivory Tower Design essay.
>Bad argument to make, because no matter how bad or deranged something is, there will always be people that like it. It's also almost always incorrect, because they don't specifically like X, but they might like a byproduct of it that could still be achieved in another better way.
Yeah and all those other ways of trying it (the Dragon Age way, the 4th edition D&D way, the Pillars of Eternity way, etc) don't resonate nearly enough with this sizeable group of players as the 3rd+ edition D&D way. It's a niche, but it's a large niche. Patfinder found its success because 4th edition left this group incredibly disappointed.

>>3764147
OP is retarded but the stat bloat for the player is on of the worst things in wrath.

>>3764665
>It's not trial error. The challenge of third edition D&D and its derivatives is to do your homework and comprehend it.
It is trial and error if you lose or get severely punished for not having information you couldn't have had prior to the situation. Which then would contradict the thing you're claiming it's going for, which would be a design failing in terms of implementation.

And none of what you're talking about has anything to do with challenge. If an enemy appears in a puff of smoke and instantly does mass petrify with bonus modifiers when none of it was even hinted at, you did not die/fail due ot challeneg.
Likewise, when you reload and use spells/items that grants immunity to petrification or heavy resistance to it beforehand and turn the rest of the fight into a cakewalk that is not challenge.

Even if in theory that's what the original designers of Pathfinder intended, how someone else implements and designs games, encounters and such is entirely separate.

>Yeah and all those other ways of trying it (the Dragon Age way, the 4th edition D&D way, the Pillars of Eternity way, etc) don't resonate nearly enough with this sizeable group of players as the 3rd+ edition D&D way.
Utterly irrelevant comment based on asspulls just to defend a personal bias.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with challenge and adding stuff like pre-buffing, tons of more debuffs and buffs and shit would not solve any of Rogue Traders problems with combat and how broken it is. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of not only the problems in Rogue Trader, but also the Pathfinder systems and what results in actual challenge.

>>3763985 (OP)
The first act is terrible, I've never made it all the way through, that game is annoying af.

>>3764676
>It is trial and error if you lose or get severely punished for not having information you couldn't have had prior to the situation.
This is a situation that rarely pops up in WotR, especially in Act 1. You scout and look at the enemies and their weaknesses. You prepare for a dungeon based on what types of enemies are likely to be there, and there aren't too many gotchas, especially not ones you're forced to go through to progress.

>>3764676
>Challengeing things are not challengeing unless they fit my definition of "actual challenge" which I don't aply to other games because they also all fail it.
What is the point of this discussion?
Do you have a monetary incentive to make these threads?

>>3764713
Wait how do you scout?

>>3764751
You send someone with a high sneak skill ahead or you crawl inch by inch to remove enemies from the fog war but without triggering a fight or you cast invisibility on a character.

>>3764757
oh is that how you are supposed to play these games?

>>3764713
It's not like there is a lot of enemy variety. It's either demons,undead or both.

>>3764713
WotR contains several scenarios where a fight immediately begins as you enter a new area so that scouting is impossible.

>>3764777
And those aren't so tough that they'll kill you.

>>3764777
Come on, Those make up a small percentage of the fights in the game, and at least two thirds of them are very obviously boss fights and clearly marked as such by their enviorments and placements.

>>3764777
And you know when those happen since they are boss fights.They are either at the end of a dungeon or they have the danger audio cue in the area before you trigger them.

>>3763985 (OP)
>put tons of enemies that give diseases, ability damage, etc. in the early game
Valid point, annoying to deal with early on

>early game is timed, with no good indication that it is timed and how much time you have
You're not supposed to know how much time you have. Why would the enemy tell you they're attacking in x days?

>early game companions start with bad builds
Which ones? You get the first 3 at level 1 and and can do whatever you want with them.

>constant pre-buffing
That's pathfinder in general. Has nothing to do with Owlcat. Show me a D&D game that isn't 5e that you don't pre buff all the time.

>>3764877
I mean let's just be realistic and step back and look at the scale of the game, lore-wise... we're at the WORLDWOUND fighting an endless army of demons. Of course it would be necessary to layer one's self in every divine and arcane boon in one's access.

>>3764938
You sure you're replying to the right person? I was saying that it makes sense to pre buff all the time. I basically told him the same thing you're saying.

>>3764941
I was just corroborating, I suppose, while encouraging an emphasis on immersion into the lore as a way to reconcile gameplay. I find half the fun is in inventing lore reasons for gameplay, or using gameplay to enhance immersion.
>party is afflicted with Silence
>mute the game

>>3764954
But silence just means you can't talk. You would turn off a microphone for that. You turn your sound off when you're deafened and turn your monitor off when you're blinded.

>>3764955
and when my party is KO'd...

>>3764109
Pathfinder is piss easy too, just prebuff and win

>>3764499
Stop posting your sloppa, tranny

>>3764960
Yeah the hardest part of the game is level 1. You just get insanely powerful as the game goes on. Install the mod that lets you cast all your buffs with 1 button and destroy everything.

>>3764959
You're supposed to post a photo of a rope.

>>3764777
Also several where new enemies spawn IN combat.
>>3764807
Three (3) of the toughest fights in the game are like that thoughever.

Which is obviously why you tediously apply every single buff in your arsenal as soon as you enter any map, making the game repetitive and boring.

>>3764739
Can you explain what is so challening about any of the things you think is challenging here?
Do you think it's really difficult to pre-buff resistance spells against the spells and abilities you already know the enemies have because you reloaded the fight or you're replaying the game?

>>3764938
If it's "lore accurate" for incurable Dysentery to be present in a region, do you think it's good design and really fun to have to stop what you're doing every 15 minutes for your party to drop everything they're doing and take a shit for 5 minutes before you can continue playing?

Pre buffing might be fun 5 times, 10 times or even 15 times if we're being generous. But not constantly to the point of becoming brainless and tedious.

People (including Owlcat) also need to learn that videogames and PnP are different and you need to bend the rules a bit. Videogames for example tend to have a lot more combat in them. This means what might be fun for the occasional fight in PnP (which also plays differently) can very easily spiral out of control in a videogame.
Resting is also one of these problems, that isn't really an issue in PnP but quickly becomes one in videogames.

>>3765111
>Pre buffing might be fun 5 times, 10 times or even 15 times if we're being generous. But not constantly to the point of becoming brainless and tedious.
The only problem with prbuffing in the pf games is tat they didn't integrate a buff mod into the game from the beginning. Prebuffing is inherent to the pf1 ruleset and trying to change that would be far from 'bending the rules a bit'. The reason it works in tabletop but becomes tedious in the games is that in a tabletop campaign I can say "I cast all the usual buffs" or "I cast X, Y and Z on everyone then A and B on Anon". Fortunately, the community has come up with some excellent mods and if you're playing either of the pathfinder games without them then you deserve to suffer.

>>3765156
Slavishly sticking to rules that were never intended for videogames is genuinely a bad idea and mark of a bad designer that can't think independently. You adapt rulesets.
Regardless, this is just one of many things which makes the Pathfinder videogames more tedious (and less about actual challenge) than they need to be.

>>3765156
yea it was kinda weird they didn't just take bubble buffs and made it official

>>3765156
>The reason it works in tabletop
It doesn't most of the time unless your GM is a literal retard.

>>3765194
russians love tedium. they probably think buff macros are "too easy".

>>3765156
Prebuff to win encourages garbage combat with absolutely zero strategy involved, it's JRPG-tier of "bigger number, therefore I win"

>>3765294
>>3765107
Right, so now you've constructed the stupid strawman where "having the buff wins the fight" and you're attacking this as if it's somehow true.
Again, are you paid to write this nonsense?

>>3763985 (OP)
>>early game companions start with bad builds
What? Early game ones are the best because level 1 is easy to course correct
>Seelah's is mid but Paladin's are obviously very good here and she can explore other CHA based classes
>Lann starts as Zen Archer a solid dip especially for three levels then can use his great Wisdom to go Inquisitor or a Crusader Cleric no problem and still get bow feats
>Wendog is a level 1 fighter with decent stats lots of options here
>Ember has a sleep which is completley takes something out of the fight and can even coup de grace plus evil eye for AC lowering and this is before getting into her fantastic ray capabilities
>Neino is a high int wizard no abjuration is a bummer but is fantastic
>Woljif is alright better off as a vivi rather than the arcane trickster
I barely buff at all in Act I outside the tougher garrison fights or optional bosses, everyone is great especially below core you just gotta use cold iron

Playing wotr blind, core, ironman.
In act 5 now, just beat Deskari

>>3764676
>It is trial and error
yes and no.
it is trial an error in the sense that, you need to learn to use your head.
for example, if you are facing demons and everything is on fire. maybe buy fire protection scrolls. if you're going into a big dungeon and you don't know what you'll need, buy some of everything that seems useful.
so make sure you have someone fast to cast a protection from fire scroll if you see a nigger that looks like he throws fireballs, or protection from evil if you see something that mind controls. read the descriptions on the spells in the store, if it seems useful buy at least one.

is that trial and error?
i rather think it's weirder that you can go back in time and do it again. it should delete the game from your computer if you die.

>>3765111
it's essential to use a mod for buffs. you configure which ones you want and then press one button.
still, you'll want to do them manually for the first five or so levels since you have so few skill slots. but buffs become pseudo-permanent enhancements pretty fast.

>>3764938
yup. ordinary soldiers carry health potions but they also have protection scrolls against succubi, summon monster scrolls, etc. it's just a matter of survival to know what you're up against.

>>3764777
>scouting
at the start maybe. Maybe you spot them before they aggro if you are careful, but in my experience that's only about half the time. 2/3 at most.
the biggest problems are when you cannot run away, for example you enter a building in act 1 and there's an enemy you're not ready to fight. you cannot flee because the leave area button is disabled during combat.

>>3764829
there is no lack of ambushes at all, in any chapter of the game. it's not ton but definitely at least 1 in 10.
Specifically, in act 1 they are brutal. you have low hp so cannot afford a mistake.

>>3765561
it's somewhat workable for the guys you recruit at level 1. but there's only two or three of those. everyone else starts at level 3 or higher.
you can maybe forgive a 1 level dip but 3 levels? 6? not really.

and even then it's a bit sketchy. if you are a human, your first level gives two feats plus whatever you get from your class. if you want a different build, you're two or three feats down. For example if you want the paladin to become a skald. maybe if you're partway through act 3 you don't care about two or three feats but it's a big deal for the first half of the game. plus, you don't get to pick the stats.

>>3765294
just think of it like equipping an amulet.
i don't know how much dnd you played, but you used to pay priests to cast a spell on you before a fight.
of course you're going to have them cast a fire resistance spell if your'e fighting a red dragon, are you stupid? who goes into a volcano with dragon sightings without having someone cast spells on you first? even if you don't have a mage, a thief can use scrolls he bought or had crafted.
these are just rudimentary preparations that you should be doing anyway.

>>3765156
it is really unbearable without a buff mod. i have 40 buffs. i click one button they are all applied. you configure it in some menu.
there's a separate button for short term buffs. you pop that one if it looks like a boss room.

imagine doing 40+ buffs one by one, couldn't be me. did they even playtest this?
maybe if you savescum all the time you don't need buffs but i don't enjoy that playstyle

>>3765380
>Right, so now you've constructed the stupid strawman where "having the buff wins the fight" and you're attacking this as if it's somehow true.

Except it's not a strawman and was never countered. It was also to counter the point another anon did where they claimed pre-buffing was part of the "challenge" and it would add challenge to Rogue Trader. Try and follow along and post less logical fallacies of your own.

Even if you don't "win" a fight by pre buffing alone (which was never actually the point) it's done to reduce the difficulty of the upcoming fight by a moderate to large amount. In other words the pre buffing person wants to REDUCE challenge (so how would this help make Rogue Trader more challenging). Basically
>well i could try and deal with enemies inflated stats and debuffs during the fight, but that's harder and eats up time, so it's EASIER to do it beforehand so I can just lazily right click enemies to death unga bunga style

>>3765561
>I barely buff at all in Act I
then you must like the diseases and strength drains or keep reloading

>>3765772
I think you're a complete fucking idiot who seems to think abilities should only be used in combat and seems to think a system that gives shit to do outside of it is inherently bad because you have some kind of brain damage
Like yeah of course understanding and applying the system makes you win fights
Go develop your own system where the less good you are at figuring out the system, the easier the encounters will be
Fucking moron
Next post, how optimal resource gathering and precise build orders are making Brood War less challenging, by anon the fucktard

>>3765705
Not a complete blank slate =/= a bad build.

Sure, the companions have already started down a path but that's just part of them being characters. If you want to allocate stats and pick all the feats from level 1 then hire a mercenary.

>>3764020
yeah needing death ward before you can even cast it is a skill issue

>>3763985 (OP)
>You mean I have to defeat the bad guy BEFORE he accomplishes his goals? That's dumb! They should just wait around doing nothing until I find them!
You have never played a tabletop.

>>3765777
>I think you're a complete fucking idiot who seems to think abilities

There's a difference between using magic or skills to solve a puzzle, get through a secret entrance, help some farmers or something and pre buffing before every single combat encounter just to make it easier.
If you can't see that, you don't understand what RPGs are even about.

>Like yeah of course understanding and applying the system makes you win fights
Except there is no deep understanding or skill involved. Especially once you've reloaded a fight or just default to the same old buffs. It then becomes a chore.

You're also confused because you fall victim to the simple bias of *feeling* like you've been smart, even though nothing clever was done. It's an emotional reaction
>enemy uses poison, i know they use poison because i'm replaying the game or reloading the fight, so i cast poison immunity before the fight
which emotionally can make some people feel "smart".
But it's no different from being handed the answers to a test beforehand and being able to ace the test because of it.

And AGAIN, the thing you seem to have SEVERE issues comprehending, the actual point of all this:
Adding prebuffing, buffs and debuffs to Rogue Trader would not solve the issues of challenge in that game or even add any challenge to it.

>>3765791
What are scrolls?

>>3765788
>it's because it fits their personalities bro!
>now if you excuse me I'm going to make Seelah a hellknight
This is just a meme and Owlcat's way of doing it only serves to make level 1 characters objectively better than everyone else

>>3765705
Regill is the only character i find difficult to turn into a good build. Though i'm sure it's possible.

>>3765881
>This is just a meme
What a meaningless collection of words. Just say you don't like it.

>>3765772
>Except it's not a strawman
>even if you don't "win a fight by pre-buffing alone (which was never the point)
So you're admitting that it is a strawman, while also saying you don't think it was?
> it's done to reduce the difficulty of the upcoming fight by a moderate to large amount. In other words the pre buffing person wants to REDUCE challenge.
Yes, but this is a inherent DnD issue and I never sugested the system should be added to RT.
What I did say was that if enemies were to inflict serious debuffs to the RT party, which had to be managed or treated by the player party in combat, that would add to the games difficulty. Which is absolutely true.
One of the more significant issues with RTs combat is the abundance of action points, free actions and the comparative ease of access to Heroic acts as compared to the power they give the players party.
So if part of the player teams turn were taken up dispelling debuffs applied by enemies, this would decrase the amount of AP a player could expend on attacking the enemies per turn.
Which would make the fights harder without blowing up enemy stats (even though I think that would be warranted as well in quite a few cases). Obviously these debuffs would have to be quite signifcant, such as large % maluses to hit, or flat -AP/MP things similiar to the wounds recieved from character KO.
As for WotR, in the early game, which the OP was talking about, Spell slots and gold are limited resources, and having to manage which spells and scrolls you bring, and when you use them absolutely is a part of the challenge of Act 1.
This remains the case until late act 2 whenyou have an abundance of lower and medium level spell slots at your disposal, and 24 hour durations on the majority of your buffs. After that point, this part of the game becomes more of an anoyance than any sort of challenge. Though more so a fault of the design of DnD 2-3-3,5 than Owlcat itself.

>>3765946
>>3765952
the problem is that they don't live in a vacuum.
the game plays with a party that works together. sometimes a certain role is missing.
it doesn't help you at all that xyz has a good build when *the team* is lacking with them.

to give a specific example, wenduag disappeared so i grabbed someone with a working build (sosiel) and went to look for her. but it turns out i needed to make stealth skill checks - wenduag had been filling that role previously.
pure cleric is a good build sure but now nobody on the team has stealth.

as the game advances, the challenges you face become more sophisticated. at the same time, at the beginning of the game there's a lot less room for error (unless of course you've played it before, in which case you won't be getting ambushed or surprised. you could probably play solo at that point).

>>3765791
you need to use consumables for that. you should have a bunch anyway:
even if you do know the spell there will be times when you want to use a scroll, for example you need the slots for something else. this normal in dnd.
until you get enduring/abundant you just cannot justify casting six death wards all the time.

the real trouble is that if you make some mistakes, you might run out of scrolls in the store. there are only three or four delay poison communal scrolls you can buy

>>3765961
>So you're admitting that it is a strawman, while also saying you don't think it was?
You're not very bright.
I said it wasn't a strawman, but for the sake of argument I then humored you.

>Yes, but this is a inherent DnD issue and I never sugested the system should be added to RT.
Good, then I won't read the rest since it's just more irrelevant off topic tangents you've already done enough of.

>>3765961
>Though more so a fault of the design of DnD 2-3-3,5 than Owlcat itself.
Using D&D for video games was a mistake and the "flaw" of stacking buffs doesn't really exist in tabletop, unless your GM is a legit retard who should be playing video games instead of wasting everyone's time.

>>3766028
stacking buffs has been a normal thing in dnd since 2e. it's practically a core part of the game and pretty straightforward to handle.
5e does away with it to a certain extent with their new mechanics and how they try to remove the hirelings mechanics (a core part of the game since the very start). it's completely ordinary to have cleric followers to cast buffs and heals on you at camp.

>D&D for video games was a mistake
true

>>3766028
>Using D&D for video games was a mistake
And yet every single party based fantasy RPG with different rules is inferior.

>>3766126
inferior to what?
DA:O is a very defensible game.

>>3766142
Nah, it's crap compared to BG 1/2.

>>3766190
it would be impossible to successfully argue that dao is crap compared to bg1/2.

you won't be able do it, so give up. dnd lost

>>3766195
Plenty of people have in the past 16 years.

>>3766126
>And yet every single party based fantasy RPG with different rules is inferior.
Mechanically and design wise Deadfire is vastly superior, because they fixed many of the problems with the DnD ruleset.

>>3766202
you could have decided to say even one thing in your defense, instead you said ""plenty of people"".

concession accepted. but we both knew you had no case.

>>3766205
Nope, hardly anyone cares about Sawyer's balance autism.
>>3766209
Not even Bioware believed in DA:O which is why they made a series of even more inferior games trying to fix it. Meanwhile we still have D&D-derivative games, no one's trying to copy DA:O. Trash systems, trash combat.

>>3766210
nah, that's a completely contrived take. at best it is cope, but realistically? just clueless.

you think that companies are licensing the dnd intellectual property, or the warhammer ip, because of the quality of the system?
everyone point and laugh at this clown.
of course your other statement is equally hilarious. yes the game was such a flop that it prompted fifteen years of sequels ""to fix it"".
is this the kind of guy that plays dnd games these days? i should make myself scarce here, just interacting with you this once is bad enough

>>3766210
>Nope
Compelling logical fallacy and close-mindedness.
>Sawyer's balance autism
So you're a mindless sheep that parrots memes to try and fit in and can't think. No wonder you reply with fallacies.

Basically, you are incapable of discussion and no one should waste time on you. Thanks for making that clear.

>>3766214
>>you think that companies are licensing the dnd intellectual property, or the warhammer ip, because of the quality of the system?
When they don't even buy a license and instead use the OGL, like Knights of the Chalice and Solasta, yes. Pathfinder also dominated 4e in sales because people wanted 3.5+ over their poorly-thought-out experiment. Then D&D quickly got back on top by abandoning 4e in record time and appealing to theater kids with 5e.
>of course your other statement is equally hilarious. yes the game was such a flop that it prompted fifteen years of sequels ""to fix it"".
DA:O's gameplay was crap. They tried to make it less crap and instead made it crappier each and every time because Bioware has never had good system designers. They were only ever good when using D&D or making something simple like a shooter with Mass Effect 2 and 3, having made a mess of the first one.

>>3766215
he managed to get both of us to reply, mea cupla

>>3766223
>Pathfinder dominated 4e in sales
>source: My ass

DA:O would be much better game if it used even D&D 5e, the system they used was consolized garbage and hurt the game replayability.

>>3766372
>DA:O would be much better game if it used even D&D 5e, the system they used was consolized garbage and hurt the game replayability.
No videogame should use D&D ruleset. Not only because it's not good, but because it was never intended for videogames and is also a bad fit for it.

Like trying to use a plastic plate as a frying pan.

>>3766378
How many good homebrew character progression systems for party based fantasy cRPGs can you list? The one in Dragon Age Origins is so dogshit 5e would be an improvement.

>>3766388
?
Anon you do realize that most videogame RPGs do not use DnD ruleset. DnD RPGs do not even make up 0,5% of all RPGs.

>>3766404
most are simple systems designed with 15 spells in mind for a single character gameplay and barely any build variety

>6 million trap options are good
These guys m8. Again, he's defending a system purposely made for retards so they can feel smart.

>>3766412
>most are simple systems designed with 15 spells in mind for a single character gameplay and barely any build variety
Many RPGs have far more complex and deep systems in place because they weren't designed for a PnP game where rules and dices are mainly there for loose structure and to settle disputes.
You wanting to die on the hill that DnD is the best roleplaying rule systems ever created won't end well for you. It's so silly no one would even take you seriously.

>>3766421
>Many RPGs have far more complex and deep systems
I asked you to list them 2 posts ago, you still refuse to do it and keep talking out of your ass

>>3766378
Larian made the best game of their career when they stopped using their own dumb system and made a 5e game.
There isn't a single party-based fantasy rpg that shows D&D how it's done. Definitely not Dragon Age, not Pillars of Eternity either.

>>3766481
I agree, what do you think about Shadowrun?

>>3766492
Mobile game tier.

>>3766494
I know its a mid ass game
I am asking about how it translates the ruleset to a videogame

>>3766481
>Larian made the best game of their career when they stopped using their own dumb system and made a 5e game.
They made DoS3 with way higher budget. That's it. Many of the worst parts of BG3 were directly tied to D&D. Including the retarded D20 dice checks.
You mongoloids thinking that D&D is the absolute best rule system for any game ever made and is the core reason why games that have them are good is so fucking retarded I can't even take you seriously. I legit assume you are baiting, which is why I don't even give you a serious reply.

>>3766425
The onus is on you, especially since you're baiting. Even if you're not, the classic case of fanboyism is to make a bold statement and then constantly demand everyone else "proves them wrong", as if they never have to back up their bold statements.

But why do you care, you're baiting. This is just a pity reply because you're so desperate for attention since I don't reply seriously to baiters.

>>3766581
Your sophistry shall not help you. Produce the list.

>>3766581
>The onus is on you
the fuck are you even babbling about, YOU are claiming there are many Rpgs with much more complex and deep systems >>3766421
the burden of proof is on YOU

>>3766586
>>3766589
See >>3766126
>And yet every single party based fantasy RPG with different rules is inferior.

Clearly shitposters like you only need to shitpost, never back anything up after making bold statements.

>>3766590
only one of those posts is made by me
im waiting for the list of games
>Many RPGs have far more complex and deep systems

>>3763985 (OP)

True enough Cam and Lann classes are bothersome. Lann is useful if you know how to capitalize on the build but if you don´t like it you really can´t build him into anything else. It´s kind of annoying.

Wendu is far stronger and versatile. She can be OP as fuck even though she is not broken from the go like Arue. Seelah is meh, you can make her work mostly because of the setting but she is pretty boring. Still plenty of ways to mix her up. Sosiel is a better tank though, plus he can become the bane of undead and double as a healer. There is no reason to take Seelah over him except that you get him kind of late.

Ulbrig is shit, not two ways about it. Cam... you can make Cam work but it´s honestly a pain. Not only the shaman level goes to waste but her attributes are mostly terrible for a lot of the other classes that would make sense for her plot wise like vampire or assassin. I honestly killed her on my Lich run and made a vampire copy. Sue me.

Which leaves Nenio, the elephant in the room. Nenio is OP as fuck. Yeah, she is insufferable, and quirky, and was probably created on a Whedon overdose. Deal with it.

>>3766594
>i made one of those posts
>i will also ignore any onus
>i will demand others prove my own other anons initial statements wrong, because backing up statements is something i can't do

If you wanted to concede and admit you're a close-minded shitposter, you could've shortened that post. Glad we cleared that up. Now people know to disregard you as the close-minded fanboy you are. Move along, no one will fall for your attentionwhoring anymore.

>>3766597
For how important decent to good builds are, it's baffling why Owlcat made the base companion builds so bad. They should set players up for success, not make them go oh god how to I unfuck this.

>>3766599
>schizo rambling and refuses to follow up on his own claim something that would take just 15 seconds and could end the entire argument

i accept your concession

>>3766597
>>3766600
Why are you guys so bad at RPGs?

>>3766637

Since when not liking some specific classes reflects on one´s skills? Besides it´s not as if one can´t hire mercs and build them from scratch.

With the right party you can totally trivialize most encounters without buffs. I wonder if that means that Owlcat tailors difficulty to the basic party?

>>3766647
NPC companion "builds" are always bad in RPGs and RPGs with them are always easy enough to beat with them played straight. You just have a weird framework you are operating under, so your evaluations are wonky.

I don't get what to with overlapping buffs.

>>3766581
I sentence you to death for such a terrible post

>>3766517
The Harebrained games use their own system instead of tabletop rules. Very simple, not something you play for the unique builds.
>>3766581
>You mongoloids thinking that D&D is the absolute best rule system for any game ever made and is the core reason why games that have them are good is so fucking retarded
It has its problems, which is why I'd love it if someone actually did make a better system. But no one has.

>>3766481
Based
>>3766378
3.5e buffbotting is a tedious non interactive drag and once you actually learn all the PF builds you know there's a lot of overlapping mechanics and mostly flavor abilities. It's not actually deeper than 5e which is why I became a 5e convert even though I'm the most ancient grog here.
5e tabletop streamlined balance and modularity in builds carries well to crpg and lets them focus more on content imo.
>>3766581
Nothing wrong with a d20 check, amounted to easy streamlined reactivity to build in to several more points in BG3 than you find in most games. Custom dice are fun and cool to look at, and a good bridge back from crpg to the actual roots of the genre.
>>3766597
You're nearly 100 percent correct except that Ulbrig is an absolute beast, easily equivalent to Wendu if not slightly better. Once he gets all the shapeshifter gear and just set flying charge and forget you have a perfect extra offtank that doesn't siphon other types of gear from the more regular classes.

I use full respec mod and avoid Owlcat weak builds anyway though so I can play with the companions I like the way I want to.
>Whedon overdose
Exactly, once I start hearing the Reddit talk Nenio gets benched which is 100% of playthroughs.

>>3766906
RNG reactive check is a good system but announcing it to the player and making them “click to roll” just just boring and dumb.
The game should assume the player uses the most advantageous character and modifiers and roll automatically. The constant boring on screen dice that break up gameplay for no reason are the wordy parts of BG3 by a wide marigin.

>>3766916
fucking autocorrect,
*the worst parts of BG3

>>3766223
>Pathfinder also dominated 4e in sales because people wanted 3.5+ over their poorly-thought-out experiment.
Yes.

>Then D&D quickly got back on top by abandoning 4e in record time and appealing to theater kids with 5e.
No. I remember the truly abstracted theater kid crap like V:The Requiem or some of the short lived dice only or card draw systems and while 5e has some of those abstracted characteristics it also has really appealing crunchy build modularity like combining the caster and half caster spell slots when multiclassing. That's a whole world of multiclass options that didn't exist in 3.5. Sort of, but more of round hole impaled on square peg jank as is typical with 3.5.

>>3766916
Dice rolling makes way more sense in MP than SP so people can talk shit about other's rolls or boost them up, which is fun. There is some decision level there too since guidance can break concentration on another spell, opportunity cost of blowing your luck/divination for the day, etc.

>>3766610
>doesnt realize the irony of his own shitpost

it's like i'm really on /v/

>>3766804
>someone actually did make a better system. But no one has.

Even Deadfire is better by a mile. But this board isn't mature enough to admit that. Because of le balance man brainrot.

>>3766906
>Nothing wrong with a d20 check
Plenty wrong with it.
D20 is a large spread. Doing skill checks based on RNG is retarded and literally random, not reflective of a characters actual skills. A character being "proficient" at something gives very small bonuses to the roll compared to a character that isn't. In P&P rolls and such are used as guidelines to improvise from and rolls can be influenced by how the player RPs it, which isn't possible in games.

D&D's entire system is fucked and does not fit videogames. Almost everything is archaic and shit.
Alignment system is retarded and they only stick to it because it's legacy. The stats are retarded and fall too much into min maxing with dump stats, making the entire system stupid as fuck.
Games need far more encounters and shit compared to P&P, so resting constantly torpedos the pacing of the game. And the list just keeps going fucking on.

>>3766953
>70iq shitskin makes a retarded claim then refuses to elaborate making excuses such as asking others to prove negative talks about irony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

its amazing that inbred mongoloid like you managed to solve captcha.

>>3766980
dude either you or that other anon made the initial claim you think doesn't need to be proven, but everyone that replies to you need to prove shit.

do you think this is how courts work? if you accuse someone of being guilty you then just fling up your hands and say everyone else needs to prove you wrong? otherwise you're by default correct?

>>3766980
and to make it clear, you or your buttbuddy was proven they made the initial claim at >>3766126 , yet outright denied it and said other needs to disprove them here >>3766590
or will you keep plugging your ears?

>>3766985
Which is correct, Baldur's Gate 1/2/3 and the Pathfinder games are arguably the best party based fantasy cRPGs, and they use a PnP system. Now go ahead and list the many games that use a better homebrew system, as you claimed in your previous post and have refused to elaborate on for the second day in a row.

>Many RPGs have far more complex and deep systems

>>3766988
>Which is correct
So you admit to making a statement you never backed up and demand others do your job for you and prove you right.
What was that about calling people retarded? Maybe look in the mirror.

>>3766988
Oh and since your'e slow, let me explain what you actually claimed
>all fantasy rpgs with a party are inferior BECAUSE they don't use D&D rules

What you need to prove is
>all other non D&D fantasy party based RPGs are objectively inferior, so you create a list of ALL the other games and break down why exactly they are inferior because they don't use D&D
>break down why exactly the D&D ruleset is superior to every other ruleset

>>3766993
>>3766991
>Many RPGs have far more complex and deep systems

Give us the fucking list of games you inbred mongoloid or put a bullet in your head, its that simple.

>>3766957
>can be influenced by how the player RPs it, which isn't possible in games
it absolutely is. you could have optional paths and prep and items and spells and knowledge from npcs that modify checks.

>>3766997
You're the one that needs to present a list and breakdown before you can demand anything. Screaming at others to do your work for you because you can't is you admitting you're wrong (or at least incapable of backing up your claims).
You claimed first that
>all fantasy rpgs with a party are inferior BECAUSE they don't use D&D rules

You throwing a tantrum and screaming like a child doesn't change a thing. Or maybe you were just raised poorly.

>>3767003
>it absolutely is
It's not. How you phrase and word something, while also giving context for how you plan to beat a check can make the DM influence how easy it is for you to succeed and what the fail or success results are.
No game is this adaptable. They give you a line of text with a [Skill Check] next to it that you click and then the RNG happens and you get a fail/success result.
It's the difference between pen and paper and a videogame. They function differently because it's almost entirely about imagination and roleplaying. A DM can say that a dragon appears and it happens, a videogame needs to have a dragon modeled, rigged, animated, have sound effects, spell effects, AI be coded, text written and scripted and so on. There's a fundamental difference in how they work.

>>3767006
No you are mixing posts from multiple people and applying them to me when the only one i posted was
>>3766372
nowhere i claimed its good BECAUSE it uses PnP system (i glanced over posts and desu could not find anyone say that, please point me to the post you think that claim was made).From beginning i was in a camp its necessary evil and games are good despite using PnP system becuase no homebrew system ended up being better (ie attempts like trash system in DAO), your counter was that there are many games with rich and deep systems i asked you to give example which you refuse to do 2nd day in row you pathetic mongrel.

>>3766597
>Lann is useful if you know how to capitalize on the build but if you don´t like it you really can´t build him into anything else. It´s kind of annoying.
Git gud, bro. Lann is one of the most flexible characters in the game.

>>3767009
>It's not. How you phrase and word something
Wrong, you just lack imagination, ironically. Selecting the dialogue option that fits the personality of the character you are trying to influence or that matches the situation or that mentions some influential tidbit found elsewhere would work just fine.
>No game is this adaptable
It doesn't have to be super fancy, it's just modifying checks based on predetermined factors to give the player some leeway.
It's really not as complex as you make it, because vidya RPGs are not trying to perfectly adapt tabletop mechanics anyway. It's not like most DMs are all that creative or adaptable anyway.

>>3766955
Deadfire's spells are incredibly underwhelming. It was released a few months before Kingmaker and it was left in the dust while Kingmaker for all its broken jank received all the initial success it didn't.

>>3766597
>Ulbrig is shit, not two ways about it
What the fuck are you smoking
His broken ass custom griffon shifter class is amazing and he negates the handicap of his class with additional stats to boot with his first mythic feat! He even gets a ton of gear only he realistically is going to use

>>3767040
>Wrong, you just lack imagination
Good thing your astronomical levels of autistic imagination can change reality and bend games coding to your will in real time as you play them.

>>3767014
>n-no it wasn't me that posted that!
>n-no that person doesn't need to back anything up!
>y-you do! because i just said so and it's convenient for me so I don't have to back anything i think up, which just so happens to align with what the person I claim not to be said!
Nice mental gymnastics.

>>3767585
Pathetic response.

>>3767452
I literally don't care about popularity or success. If I did I would eat at McDonalds every day and go watch the Minecraft movie every week to scream at memes.
In this context, Deadfire did numerous improvements to the CRPG systems that made multiclassing better, repeated combat better and much less start & stop with constant resting and so on. If we're judging the quality of system, that is not emotional but rational, so popularity is irrelevant.

>>3767591
Anon, you either misunderstand completely what I was talking about or you're saying you can bend code to your will. Which is it?
If you claim anything else, you admit it's the former.

>>3767593
It's just not pertinent or relevant to what I was talking about. You can modify skill checks in a static vidya system, you can make them more interesting.
>can be influenced by how the player RPs it, which isn't possible in games
This is just wrong. RP is how you play the character, where you go, what you do, who you talk to in what order, what you focus on, not just the improv dialogue you spout. All of that can be tracked in vidya, it's just a lot of work and devs are lazy.

>>3767588
Not interested in your mental illness and retarded dialogue made up in your schizophrenic head.

Its a 3rd day in row you are refusing to give list of the "many games" while producing multiple off-topic turds. Absolutely unhinged.

>>3767601
>It's just not pertinent or relevant to what I was talking about.
Good thing what you were rambling about was never relevant to anything, since you replied to something you didn't even understand. Like throwing a shitfit about american politics when someone was talking about the weather.

>>3767613
Explain why you or your buddbuddy do not need to elaborate on the thing that was stated first. Why you do not need to back anything up.

>>3767618
ask the schizoid, he was the one who said PnP is shit should never be used because there many games with better and more deep systems. When asked about the games he refuses to list a single one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>3767452
Anon there's this one guy who posts here that keeps bringing up, shilling and defending Deadfire at every opportune moment. He's been doing it for years, you're not going to convince him of anything.

>>3767617
You are really bad at this.

>>3763985 (OP)
Can't make a cool character, all companions look like trannie circus freaks.

lichboys rise...

>>3767619
>who said PnP is shit should never be used

They were correct. P&P were not designed for digital games, are very simplistic and rely a lot of rng due to the lack of digital backend. Structurally games are different too, like needing way more enemy encounters, which means more resting, which means more stopping constantly and tons of other stuff.
You could adapt it and take elements to make it emotionally feel 'faithful', if you really needed to, but a 1:1 rule translation is only something someone contractually obligated or genuinely incompetent would do.
I'm sorry if you're so far up your own ass where you let your emotions blind you to the point where you can no longer do any independent thought. Then again, what else can you expect from an ignorant player?

>>3766223
Pathfinder beat 4E in sales in literally 1 quarter in 1 specific part of the market, LGS sales according to ICv2 polling, which is anything but rigorous, after WotC pulled PDF sales over butthurt caused by pirates from /tg/, killed the main line of the game in favor of a terrible reboot line in Essentials that pissed off the people playing and did nothing to bring back the 3E players who left, and literally were not printing new material during that exact quarter.

Pathfinder did not dominate 4E in sales.

>>3772098
>P&P were not designed for digital games, are very simplistic
Yet, a week and dozen posts later, you still refuse to provide the list of "many games with deeper and better systems" while shitting out another retarded rant.
>rely a lot of rng due to the lack of digital backend
Pretty much all homebrew systems have damage RNG, block and hit chance, and other aspects that rely on RNG. DOS1 had combat altering CC tied to frustrating RNG, which in the next game they replaced with an armor system arguably the worst system in any game ever. Homebrew systems also lack a digital backend since they're created on the spot for a particular game, and they're usually simple and broken as hell because nobody's going to spend 30 years refining and play testing them.
>You could adapt it and take elements
You don’t say. That’s what most games using PnP already do

>>3767032
Absofuckinglutelly. Hes like Sosiel but can actually do damage from range if you mythic investment in it. But Sosiel since hes already a cleric and got good stuff already can just become even more monstrous as the buff bitch that touches people. I've always hated Wendy, but Cam is fine. She's an off-tank that brings select druid buffs and evil eye for those times when you need it make saving rolls etc.

>>3772098
What good non-PnP inspired RPG?

is the living weapon questline worth it? he's pretty decent already

>>3772186
>Yet, a week and dozen posts later, you still refuse to provide the list
?
You're the one that needs to prove your stuff bro. You claimed all other non DnD games were inferior. You still keep deflecing? You ok in the head?

>>3772328
>What good non-PnP inspired RPG?
Most videogames and RPGs do not use PnP rulesets. You telling me you haven't played them and don't know of any good ones?
Or are you like >>3772186 that would screech autistically over any game listed? I bet what would really set him off is daring to mention something that fixed many of the problems, like Deadfire.

Also what exactly is the thing being judged here? Leveling? Combat? Roleplay? Stats? What? if you can't even define that then it will just turn into mongoloids like >>3772186 that will call anything and everything shit simply because they emotionally disgrees with it and not wanting to be wrong.

>>3773868
most rpgs have bad systems period. with pnp or not. at least with pnp you can understand the formulas at play instead of their janky shit being black boxed.

why be afraid to list anything if you think it's a trap? who cares what other people who you think are wrong think? it'd be nice to understand what you consider a well made vrpg system.

>>3773874
>most rpgs have bad systems period. with pnp or not. at least with pnp you can understand the formulas at play instead of their janky shit being black boxed.
Calling everything/most shit is an excuse and you know it.
Knowing the shitty ruleset they used changes nothing. You can give players the raw % probablity but absolutely no one actually understand how even simple probability actually works so it just causes more harm. Knowing the rules or math under the hood doesn't change a system from bad to good either.

And there is no point in feeding people their derailing fallacies, when they very clearly have zero interest in discussion. Feeding people that already move goalposts leads to more goalposts shifting and fallacies. These are the people that need to stay on topic and back up shit if anything, especially when they started it.

But whatever, it's clear no sensible discussion is to be had. But frankly that's 99% of the case on this board. People don't come here to discuss.

>>3773905
>Calling everything/most shit is an excuse and you know it.
it isn't. sturgeon's law.
>Knowing the shitty ruleset they used changes nothing
it allows you to make informed choices. to shape your character with real knowledge is actual roleplay because it allows you to understand your character's abilities instead of kind of guessing.
>no one actually understand how even simple probability actually works
real tabletop rpg fans do though.
>Knowing the rules or math under the hood doesn't change a system from bad to good either.
it exposes the bad parts, leaving them susceptible to player feedback.
>move goalposts
autistic people love this concept, because they don't understand that other people value things differently and want to control the parameters of the discussion with an iron grip. pity.
>it's clear no sensible discussion is to be had. But frankly that's 99% of the case on this board. People don't come here to discuss.
having you tried not coming here to cry about how superior you are and inferior others are?

yo dawg this gameplay is straight FIRE

>>3775585
>plays a girl
>doesn't use bubble buffs
>memes like a negroid
the very image of a modern owlcat fan

>>3775653
>modern owlcat fan
So an owlcat fan? Kingmaker isn't some 1999 game you know

>>3775664
it's a pirates of penzance reference, you slackjawed philistine

>>3775585
No reason to have both Protection from Elements and Resistance to Element, and especially not as some kind of preventative measure. Get hit with a fireball or something? Then cast it. Not a big deal whatsoever.
No reason for all those stat buffs, where the fuck are your belts? Why does your backline need extra CON?
>death ward on everyone
lol fucking why, no point at all. If you really want or are expecting something (undead, nabasu, whatever) give it to one or two front people. Otherwise cast it when it's apparent you need it, and even then only the front people can use it anyhow.
That's if you even want to bother with it, when Restoration is just a couple diamond dusts.

Real CRPG fans play on CORE but
>no dips only full class
>no pets
>4 party
>no buffs for ordinary fights
>no belts and tiars for physican\mental stats (yep, who need these shit, use your own stats)
>full role play
>party will be beaten and scorched but it is THE FUN + this makes you use RESTING more often as it intended

this is the closest experience to TTG pf1e
2-3 fight - rest and you supposed to burn all your abilities\spell in these 2-3 fights even if they trash.
you don't need more ability uses per day or spells, JUST REST dude

>>3775875
Gross.

uh ree lou
VORE lash

>>3763985 (OP)
only thing worse than this DEI buttshit is 10 times more DEI buttshit bg3

>>3764499
truth

>>3775699
You can't know when you need it and the combat system doesn't offer systems to block back line against creatures that drain level/stats. They will just run through and slap someone

>>3775875
the TTRPG plays nothing like the video games at all because there's no save load in them

>>3778890
there are
in TTG you are not alone. you may made a mistake and other players can resurrect you or master being kind enough to to not PK

>>3778896
no there aren't
>in TTG you are not alone
not being alone in TTRPGs just means there's going to be no coordination in the character builds outside of shit like
>we need a healer
>let's not play more than 1 of the same class (because it makes me feel less special)

you can't beat owlcat games without save load spam and TTRPGs don't have that

>>3775875
No, that's not anything like tabletop PF1E unless you're playing with the mentally challenged. The game expects you to get stat boosters, the expectation is built into the game math, and use buffs. That's not the same thing as having them all going 24/7.

>>3778918
by buffing you almost doesn't need to get rest. In big maps like kenebres market, lost sanctuaty or drezen siege you supposed to rest 3-4 time but with buffing you could rest 1 or just no resting at all.

game supposed to be played with 100% spells and ability used, your items like scrolls and potions too.

>>3766481
Nigger they changed so much about 5e just to make it barely playable and slightly fun, they literally stopped working on BG3 because 5e is such a dogshit system.
Ig if you only play on easy mode you don’t notice this but trying any actual challenge run of BG3 you are going to get used to the significant changes they made to the system (which were all for the better btw)

>>3766997
Not him but DOS2 had a very fun combat system, no game has made me feel like an overpowered archmage like that one. Only problems are out of combat systems, like pickpocketing and pre-buffing being reaction-time based, which is odd in a game with otherwise glacial pacing. Thankfully this was fixed in BG3 with turn based mode

>>3763985 (OP)
Act 1 is tedious, but only if you don't buy and use consumables. More than any other act of an RPG I've ever experienced, Kenabres in WotR is night and day in difficulty if you use consumables.

For example, the fire demon that spams fireballs is a tough fight unless you bought a simple scroll of fire protection for your group. The shadow encounters are a pain in the ass with their strength draining against the time limit you're on... unless you buy negative energy protection; same with the wight basement. The succubus's charm vs protection from evil. The alchemist and mimic house vs protection from acid. And so forth.

>>3765791
The two death ward requiring encounters are completely optional, neither really has a major benefit to doing them.

>>3780397
you wouldn't know anything about that beforehand

Do you guys let the poopoo queen bless you?

>>3780401
The succubus fight is far and away, the task is specifically mentioned to be a chore rather than a side quest or anything more plot relevant
To trigger the Nabasu you have to go and kill the necromancer before the gray garrison siege, and once again he's stuck in a corner where no player would normally think to go check back without knowledge there was something waiting there.
Neither encounter is necessary for Act 1 completion nor it's implied at any point for them to be such.

>>3780424
cope

you wouldn't know

>>3780425
To be entirely fair, I've been playing PF 1e since about a couple years after the tabletop version released.
The first playthrough I just reset until slumber stuck on the succubus then had Seelah Coup de Grace her, avoided the STR-draining ghosts until after tavern siege, and thus didn't proc the nabasu encounter.
Second run through I exp-abused to get to level 7 before the nabasu fight and thus had death ward ready to slap on Seelah.

just make a basic fighter for act 1 and lower the difficulty.The game is not fun no matter how hard you make it early on

>>3780412
I can't really remember.
Should I?
I'm on the cusp of starting a new game after a while since I last played it.

>>3780430
>The game is not fun no matter how hard you make it early on
Then why play it?

>>3778924
Yeah and Larian's Rule 0'd 5e is still better than all the previous systems they came up with themselves.

>>3780985
if you're a charismamaxxer DO NOT
permanent -4 CHA

>>3781933
Because of the smell I imagine.
Yeah, I don't think I will chamaxxed or not.
It's funny because that was a plot point for our Bard in my IRL 3.5e campaign.
He did the stereotypical Bard thing and it backfired hard when he tried wooing a Nymph, who cursed him to smell like manure.
I began playing in 2022, and it was only at the end of last year he managed to get that curse lifted since it wasn't something so simple a common spell would fix.

I dropped Azata in Alushinyrra after the slave market fight and Mephistopheles reveal. First time in 4 WOTR playthroughs that I drop one mid-game like this. I just can't with this path. It's too whimsical and reddit. I expected more freedom fighter (like Desna descending to fuck up a Demon Lord and her domain as retaliation outta nowhere - FUCK the power balance) and less....tea parties, gardening and music festivals on a flying magical island while crusaders are getting slaughtered fighting the Abyss down on earth.
Not for me.

Currently playing BG3 for the 1st time, chilling out before returning to WOTR with an Aeon playthrough.

>>3782245
Yeah, Azata is truly awful.

>>3782245
consider boneman

How's Lich into Gold Dragon?

>>3782350
even after the updates, gold dragon feels DOGSHIT

>>3782604
Can you at least keep aivu if you are coming from Azata?

>>3782888
I actually don't know

Never go summons
I just did a high level fight where I summoned a gorillion summons that all failed their reflex saves and got wiped out next turn, even with my mythic feats pumping them
still won, fuck the tsunami spammers

Is pathfinder kingmaker good introduction for CRPG newbie?
If no, which game should i started with first?

>>3785274
Kingmaker is decent but way too much filler and un undercooked kingdom system. Play WOTR instead, from what I hear it's a much tighter experience and onboards newcomers much better.

>>3785274
unironically, the paper work might filter you if you start with this as your first crpg, have you at least played a table top game before?

>>3763985 (OP)
>he thinks the early game is a slog
>he hasn’t even gotten to Acts 3, 4, and 5 yet
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>3785998
nope, i want to try CRPG for the first time.

>>3786010
I'd say try it before you buy. this genre is extremely unforgiving for new blood. that mandalore review is a bit dated now but it goes into detail about the game, just skip the spoilers in the video when he tells you they're coming and he also reviews wotr.

>>3785323
>I hear it's a much tighter experience and onboards newcomers much better.
I wouldn't say either of these things is true.

>>3785274
>>3785323
>>3786026
Kingmaker is better than Wrath as a starting out point, there are a lot less classes, feats, effects, etc. and the companions you get are quite obvious in what they can do compared to Wrath.
The Mythic system I imagine to be quite hard for newbies to grasp. Especially if you decide to pick a dud combination, like caster Trickster, you will find yourself stuck with an underpowered MC and it won't feel that satisfying.

>>3785274
No, all of Owlcat's games are bad and extremely bloated number stacking sims with almost zero roleplaying.

Play something like Space Wreck instead, it's short, has a simple system and leans heavily into roleplay and player creativity.

>>3782245
I was honestly both impressed and surprised that Azata managed to be more wacky reddit man than Trickster, who balances it out with other things - some more classical poetic justice here, some downright malicious shit there if you choose.
Azata just keeps getting more and more detached from reality, but unlike with Trickster with its detractors nearly nobody seems to acknowledge that as a serious fucking problem and somewhat terrifying. Presumably because Pathfinder and everything related to it has such a massive fucking bias toward Chaotic Good that it stopped being funny years ago.

WoTR is an easy game. I'm starting to think that most RPG players might be pretty dumb.

best mythic path? mechanics and sorry wise?

>>3786638
It's not that it's hard.The balance is just shit and that includes broken shit that the player can use.

>>3786638
>>3787075
its less being dumb and more not wanting to spend an hour reading all the shit they get. bubble buffs + pets will trivialize all difficulties

>>3787205
Reading the tooltips is the funnest part.

>>3786638
>a game is easy if you learn and understand all the rules
You don't say.

>>3763985 (OP)
act 3 start is worse
felt like you couldn't get anything done because of events and exhaustion, and you have no idea what's timed and what's important or not

>>3787015
Angel or Demon

>>3787015
>mechanics
azata
>story
angel or demon
>both
lich

Is it me or Owlcat did a doodoo job with the Signifer for Wrath? It feels underwhelming compared to the tabletop. They didn't even include the Catechisis class feature to make prestiging for a divine caster actually viable.

Haven't looked to see if there's a mod to correct this desu.

I just remember playing as a Gendarme and never being able to play as any other class again.

>>3788384
Licht was incredibly disappointing.I have no idea why some people like it.

>>3788651
Damn, that's would be pretty strong.
You could have some cool divine-divine multiclass with that.

>>3785274
Kingmaker is better than Wotr.

>>3788651
Yeah it's not great. I only tolerated it on my Aeon run because I wanted to triple-down on law autism and hoped it'd have some meaningful reactivity when dealing with Hellknights, but lmao, should've known better than to expect that, fool that I was

>>3788701
I have no idea why you dislike it. maybe you're the one with the problem?

>>3788651
Let's just get this out of the way so we can stop talking about them:
Hellknights fucking SUCK
>mechanics don't compare to the power of paladins at all in any known gaming universe
>grabbing all the law from 5 different panthenons including some with diametrically opposed morality and then biasing it to evil anyway just cause is a stupid fucking idea thematically
>initiation is summoning a devil and beating it (wtf, why not a demon or azata since you know, law vs chaos)
>The apprentice hellknight class is way more useful than the full hellknight since it's a fighter with some niche application for multiclassing at least. (Why is this even a thing? There is no apprentice paladin or ranger class, wtf again)

Just poorly thought out at every conceivable angle, if it weren't for Regil's VA no one would give two fucks about them and rightfully so.
Just make a damn anti-paladin mechanic, keep the name and legitimately allied with Hell, blackguard, or proper death knight and stop trying to reinvent this wheel PF, ffs.
>Oh hey it's us the mid wheel reinventing company
Another reason why I'm happier 5e has such a strong CRPG showing now.

>>3789302
>Hellknights more like Heckinknights so as not to be too edgy for the PF crowd that needs warning labels on content is really what they are
Someone had to say it, and I am happy to be that someone.

>>3789302
the real reason why hell knight blows is because people are STILL seething about the blackguard prestige class

Recommend me some neat and obscure mods please.
I already have bubble buffs, toybox, and some other QoL mods as well as some content mods like Expanded Content and Dark Codex.
I also have that one romance mod so that I can fuck Terendelev ('s ghost?).

>>3789420
Also, pitch some gestalt builds for my MC.

>>3789434
>play the game for me
cuck

>>3789302
>grabbing all the law from 5 different panthenons including some with diametrically opposed morality and then biasing it to evil anyway just cause is a stupid fucking idea thematically
That - and a lot of problems with Hellknights in general - is because, unironically, Paizo has a massive fucking bias toward Chaotic Good (often in the cringiest ways possible). With VERY few exceptions, Lawful characters and organizations are presented as at BEST misguided and in need of reform. Even fucking Paladins get hit with it, most of their favorable presentation in PF writing veering far more toward Good than Lawful (rather than striking a proper balance), and the more Lawful examples being often quite questionable.
Similarly 'Neutral' barely registers on the radar unless it's NG, far as characterization goes. LN is one step away from LE, TN doesn't exist or has autism (but at least that part has roots in the old days), and CN is either CE or CG depending on the mood of the writer. Thus, Hellknights being overall LN in theory puts them squarely in the "actually just an awful tool of oppression and designated antagonists" box.

For fucks sake, what is wrong with modern devs?

>>3789744
>LN is one step away from LE
looking at you hulrun
anyway you are right, i think people subconciously recognize this and praise the hellknights out of spite. regill specifically seems like his character was kind of a middle finger to that aspect of pathfinder writing

>>3789763
>elf
>gay
I don't see what's so modern about that

>>3789763
Partner as in they worked together you brain rotten retard
.

>>3789763
I put a gay couple in my pnp campaign for literally no reason because I like the seethe it generated.

>>3790876
>It takes a great deal of bravery to ragebait your enemies, but a great deal more to ragebait your friends. I award 10 points.

is there any differwence between Goty and enhanced edition? will i miss any dlc if i buy EE?

>>3790880
Enhanced is just the base version of the game, goty has all the DLC. A lot of the DLC is pretty lousy, game is more than long enough as it is.

>>3789839
no, this one's a pederast, his lover is underage. very progressive.

>>3790866
Way too many great tracks in the game's OST.

>>3790985
Still samefagging?Did they bully you out of /crpg/ ?

>>3791857
No idea what you're going on about, it's not controversial to say that most of the DLC isn't worth it.

>>3764020
>>3763985 (OP)
bruh i played it like ten times and had no idea it was timed at all

>>3792010
It's some /vg/tard, those guys always think everyone is the same 3 posters they shitpost with all day there based on having some similar thought or something. Pity them.

is there any reason to outright avoid unlocking as many of the beginning mythic path options that are available in chapter 1 even if I don't necessarily know which one I want to pursue?

>>3792779
Nope.

It took me 80 hours to get through act 3. How long is this fucking game? Haven't looked at total playtime but it's got to be over 150 hours. I'm guessing I gave another 100 left at the pace I'm going.

>>3792952
100-200 hours depending on difficulty level + if youre playing turnbased or retard mode

>>3764489
>he didn't fail spectacularly like me, so he didn't see what happens in the niche case when he fails to tie his own shoes
>that makes him the retard
lmao

>>3792952
Too long.

If a lot of the DLC isn't worth it, then what is?

>>3775699
>just savescum to know exactly what's going to happen bro

>>3792952
act 3 is the biggest single chunk but there's still a lot in front of you

>>3792952
It's longer than bg3 and normalfags were already struggling to finish that one (most didn't). Then again, normalfags.

>>3793100
The Last Sarkorians adds a new class/companion and A Dance of Masks is the ME3 Citadel equivalent, everything else is trash.

>>3792952
Took me almost exactly 150 hours blind and playing turn-based. I ignored most of the DLC.

>>3782245
>tea parties, gardening and music festivals on a flying magical island while crusaders are getting slaughtered fighting the Abyss down on earth
this is archetypical chaotic good, but it still wins in the end so i don't know why you're upset about it

>>3780424
>he's stuck in a corner where no player would normally think to go check back without knowledge there was something waiting there.
um... no? you're supposed to check every corner, that's just basic common sense in games like this

>>3793100
Infinite Dungeon DLC was fun and added some great items, glad they're adding an equivalent to RT as well.

>>3792779
Not really, but the ones you can reasonably unlock are pretty anal to keep outside of Azata. Lich requires giving the wand back to an obviously evil lich that bitches at you and has world's most retarded servants, Aeon evaporates the second you stop pressing its unique dialogue options.

this is a subtle indication that their routes suck even more ass narrative-wise than azata

>>3793376
>this is archetypical chaotic good
In what universe

>>3793376
Ahh yes I too remember Drizzt doing all of that...wait no he fucking didn't.

>>3793474
it's basically the explanation for why classic elves are good but still uninvolved in everyone else's problems and just sit around in their forest while the world burns

it goes all the way back to the first time dnd made a tolkien reference, basically

>>3793476
>drizzt
i said archetypical

>>3763985 (OP)
Is there a mod that replaces the avatars in wotr (and kingmaker) with wayne reynolds style ones?

Can I turn of the cruasde mode? This shit sucks.

>>3794091
just cheat in troops instead, so you don't miss out on some stuff

it really is terrible

>>3793457
I'm still mad that the best mythic path for mages is made for codex grognards who hate companions and romance

>>3793117
Why can't we adopt Ember? She either travels as a fucking cult leader, or she travels alone because she's too afraid of herself

>>3794089
don't think so
the avatars are actually somewhat involved if you want to mod them, since you have to make sure all the equipment looks normal too

>>3793117
You say that as if BG3 is short. It's literally one of the longest rpgs ever made. And normalfags struggle to finish any game. Even very short ones have low completion rates on steam.

>>3794178
I don't know about Owlcat since they're pretty westernized but every Russian I've spoken to had weirdly strong negative feelings about adoption

>>3794447
You adopt kids with Arueshalae if you play as a dyke and Rogue Trader's latest DLC character adopts three orphans with you if you romance him

>>3794178
I'd like to adopt her into the Swarm.

>>3794586
ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING
SAMPLE TEXT

>>3794382
Dos3 is short. Its just slow which drags the playtime.

>>3795412
>its not frozen, its fresh. we freeze it after we get it fresh. its fresh frozen

>>3794586
if only the Swarm path wasn't so ass...

>>3795417
But I will say, its unique route in Dance of Masks is pretty funny.
If only they put any of the effort into making its main game content better. Or... giving it any real content.
But hey, at least it's not Devil or Gold Dragon.

>>3794135
Just play a divine caster mage

I'm still frustrated by the fact Angel is INFINITELY better with Oracle than Paladin, to the point it feels like you're gimping yourself. Yeah, Paladin gets a bunch of neat unique bits here and there, but none of it is enough to bridge the gap (especially since the only major advantage they get is getting unshittified Radiance a bit earlier), and Angel itself fulfills the fantasy of the righteous vanquisher of all evil by default so the class is just kinda there.
Especially given Oracle can easily get heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency and just become a better Paladin by stacking permanent buffs WAY ahead of schedule due to the spellbook merge.
But hey, no different than the fact they've advertised WotR by having the trailer focus on a warrior-general becoming a Lich only to make that path... middling at best if you don't go full arcane caster. I just care less, because I think the Lich endgame is fucking stupid anyway.

>lich bad
ok pharasma, truly riveting

I really hate how Wenduag is generally a more interesting character to have around than Lann but the circumstances for recruiting her are so fucking stupid

>>3796671
>Wenduag
>interesting
She's not

>>3795794
lol, just lol if you don’t play as a pure class 20 paladin + angel path + romance Camellia + buy some scrolls of atonement
Imagine playing some lame shit like oracle and not a demon-slaying crusader

>>3796703
>romance Camellia + buy some scrolls of atonement
this meme is never going to catch on no matter how many times you repeat it

>>3796717
Buy the ticket, take the ride.

>>3795789
divine spells are lame tho

>>3797300
not really, you can blast just as much with them

>>3796703
poor quality bait on every level

>>3789302
>Just make a damn anti-paladin mechanic, keep the name
There is an Antipaladin class in the tabletop, the problem is that it's a direct Chaotic Evil inversion of the Paladin and would therefore be worthless in a game where you mostly fight evil dudes. It has a couple of more versatile archetypes (the one that lets you smite nature-types and fae is a great choice in Kingmaker with the Call of the Wild mod) but including base Antipaladin would be making the ultimate trap option. It would be cool if we got a Pathfinder game that lets you go pure evil route and fight a lot of good-aligned outsiders and whatnot so Antipaladin could be viable.

>>3799886
>What better nemesis for a paladin than his direct opposite, an "anti-paladin" that embodies the forces of evil? As the mirror image of a normal paladin, an anti-paladin might be able to detect the presence of good, generate a aura of protection against good creatures, and wield an "unholy" sword.
>Though DMs may experiment with any type of character they like, we discourage the use of anti-paladins. Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of evil have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.
-AD&D Paladin's Handbook

>>3799886
>but including base Antipaladin would be making the ultimate trap option
Like half the classes in this game are trap options, they made fucking assassin

>>3785274
No, it's not a good introductory game. It's way too long and the systems are too convoluted. The best introductory CRPG is still the original Fallout. It isn't too long, it's very cheap, it runs on a brick, and it has some of the best writing and gameplay the genre has to offer.

>>3800007
I don't like how the powerarmor gives you an objectively sculpted yet fat ass

>>3799965
>half the classes are trap options
>assassin
That's one, keep going.

>>3800029
nta
defender of the new world
any of the classes that drop class features for some summoning
armored hulk(bulk)?
alchemist class that drops grenades(can't remember)
there's like one ugly duckling in each class type

>>3800036
That makes four. There are not 8 classes.

>>3800042
ok fine, since you're neurotic
assassin
metamorph
defender of the true world(oops wrong name lmao)
armored hulk
beast trainer
green rager
standard bearer
kinetic knight(interesting case of an op class being brought low by its comparison to other fellow archetypes)
there are definitely more that I missed

>>3800036
>alchemist class that drops grenades
There's three of those, though, of which two drop them completely.

>>3800044
This isn't even half the base classes, let alone the archetypes. It's just ridiculous hyperbole, why defend it? The better argument is that there are too many classes and archetypes period, and that the campaigns of both Kingmaker and Wrath are very specific with regards to enemy types.

>>3800053
Cope.

>>3800056
>no argument
Seethe.

>>3800053
I see 8 classes(which you demanded I might add) that have trap options in just that post, I don't know why you claim that its impossible to land on one
rogue to assassin
alchemist metamorph
druid dotd
barb AH
bard BT
BR green rager
cav standard bearer
kinetiscist KKnight
and again that's with me stopping after getting 8

>>3800059
>which you demanded I might add
>you claim that its impossible to land on one
Oh, jeez, man, are you stoned? Drunk?

>>3800060
>It's just ridiculous hyperbole
>That makes four. There are not 8 classes.
>That's one, keep going.
anon....

>>3800063
I'm glad you dropped the claim thing.
>That makes four. There are not 8 classes.
4 times 2 is 8. Four is half of 8.
The original post I responded to was
>half the classes in this game are trap options

Anon... get some sleep.

>>3800064
he stopped at K on the class list bby girl, the argument you started isn't going the way you like it, huh?

You could also argue every class you get as a companion becomes a trap option for the player, as you are effectively limiting equipment options and introducing more opportunity cost into the run.

>>3800067
Are you trying to ERP with me?
Okay.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

>>3800069
Again, a better argument there would be that not all item types are represented robustly in the game and they should have included magic item crafting.

>>3800072
not at all, you might have a point that there should be options for item types not well represented (shit like dueling swords) but introducing item magic crafting to fix it would be like making toybox baseline
never balance games

>>3800074
Tabletop is built around a DM giving you access to magic items of the type your character picks and crafting items, and the questing for materials to do so, has been a part of these games for decades.
This isn't a balance issue, it's fundamental.

>>3800077
tabletop is balanced around you having a dm to strike down boring dumb shit like making found magic items inferior to crafted items
the pathfinder games are not, did you notice you can't make wands either?

>>3800082
Being able to commission equipment is a great stopgap for the inability of a dev to account for every possible composition while not overloading the maps with the extraneous loot you get when devs try to account for all those options. Again, balance has nothing to do with this, it's being able to play the game as its intended.

>>3800107
no, it turns merchants into banks and dungeon loot into gold, just like in bethesda games
again, you need a DM to do that
also
>Being able to commission equipment
is not literally making it yourself like you wanted and would definitely be implemented in the way it was with kingmaker's artisans with the story choices effecting what item you get in the end if you even get it.

>>3800110
No, I never wanted a player crafting system, just the ability to craft equipment, my bad for not being clear. Of course you go to a skilled blacksmith and use components and rare materials you find in limited supply so that you don't flood the game with trash. I'm not wanting anything related to Skyrim.

>>3763985 (OP)
>put tons of enemies that give diseases, ability damage, etc. in the early game
There are so many items and abilities that get rid of these debuffs that I don't know why you're complaining
>early game is timed, with no good indication that it is timed and how much time you have
Very few quests and scenarios are timed and even then the timing is extremely generous to the point you can spend 15 ingame days fucking around with zero consequence
>early game companions start with bad builds
The level 1 companions can be whatever you want so there are no bad builds, the others are no bad either just no viable for Unfair difficulty, everything is doable in core difficulty.
>constant pre-buffing
buffs can last from 5 min to an hour and not every fight needs to be super buffed, if you're having trouble buffing just use the buff mod
>turn the early game into a slog
I disagree early game is the best part

How bad is the time locked stuff in this game? I hate it when I can't do stuff at my own pace because there's some secret bs counter where I lose stuff if I don't clear X by day Y.

>>3801704
It's awful, you are under constant pressure to make hard decisions and avoid resting or traveling and all RPGs nowadays are like this. So stop playing these games or posting here.

>>3801704
Kingmaker had one egregious instance of that If memory serves, but I can't remember wrath having anything with a time limit so severe you could easily get fucked over.
There's one thing that you have to do in a very specific day of a very specific month, however. But if you miss the correct day, you can wait for a year for it to come back again without repercussions.

>>3801737
This guy is lying. Avoid all RPGs if you hate time limits.

>>3801704
Time is only a factor in the super secret ending that requires metaknowledge to complete and you shouldn't even try to do it the first time you play, you might not even like the outcome.

>>3801704
>>3801866
Oh and in the first act there's a countdown to an invasion that results in other maps being changed after it happens, but don't worry about it. It's possible to complete the act before the invasion even happens.

>>3764109
The secret to interesting turn-based combat is encounter design. But good and varied encounter design is hard, and takes a loooooooong-ass time for multiple game designers to set up and test each iteration against various party builds. So Owlkeks just don't do it.

>>3763985 (OP)
>early game companions start with bad builds
they're good enough to carry you through the game on core and below, even if your PC build is completely scuffed

>>3801735
>>3801753
What is the purpose of being like this? Is it a joke? Where's the comedy?

>>3801866
>you might not even like the outcome
That's me. And boy was I in a constant state of mild annoyance when all the dipshits claimed it HAD to be the 'true' and 'good' ending because it took more effort to get, ignoring all the potential consequences. I mean I get it, it doesn't feel great to go out of your way to achieve something and it's no better or even worse, but it wouldn't be the first game to do it, and it won't be the last. Sometimes it's the "oh fuck what are you doing" ending that takes bullshit conditions to fulfil. Not that this one was ALL bad, but...

>>3802269
The joke is a grown person crying about fear of missing out from time constraints. It's fucking pathetic and such people should be mocked and driven from this space.

>>3763985 (OP)
early game is quite pacy, stuff has little HPs, charges from stealth solve a lot of encounters
complaints about needing buffs are people with weak parties without everyone having pimped pets

>>3766955
PoE system is better if you are an autist. WotR/PF is for people that actually like fun.

>>3802727
I mean, it's not terrible, I play it. But it has that autistic approach with some traits being more than braindead (the assinine design of primary stats and their effects), if you want to point at it as a pinnacle of RPG design, you should reconsider.

>>3782245
fag

powergaming autism ruins the fun of this game (and most RPGs really)

just pick a class and roleplay it, on core and below anything is good enough to get the job done, personally I find it more fun trying to make suboptimal builds work

>>3802742
>just pick a class and [die repeatedly with no chance of success]
great advice retard

>>3802742
I did that, randomly picked a LG aasimar oracle because I'd never played a spontaneous divine caster and naturally went Angel. Sometimes the powergame falls in your lap.

>>3802814
Make good tactical decisions and you won't die.