>JRPG
>Speed stat is overpowered
Why does this always seem to be true?

>>3763987 (OP)
Because it's impossible to balance. Action economy always reigns supreme.

>>3763987 (OP)
Speed is almost always strong in games, be they turn based, action or whatever.
>move further, be able to kite or cover distances better
>take actions quicker
>take more actions
>become a harder target/easier to avoid damage
>etc
The amount of strong things Speed could influence in games is vast.

>>3763987 (OP)
>>3763988
>>3763990

It's universal for every game. The player that achieves the win condition first is the winner. The alternative is a time-limited match system where the winner has the larger number at the end of the match, but even then faster player will be able to amass more points quicker.

>>3763987 (OP)
In this case, because:
1. They let you boost it to max with a skill (or reaction).
2. This skill has no built in cap to it's use, other than the stat cap.
3. There is no cost besides opportunities to using it (MP, CT, Brave if using the reaction).
4. It's also a damage stat in some cases.

Solution:
1. Limit stat boosts to: (base stat - gear bonuses) * 3 / 2, or maybe 5 / 4
2. Limit stat boosts for Yell, Scream, and the dragon only version to half that.
3. Give #2 MP costs, possibly CTs too.
4. Increase JP costs for above, and consider removing the ones that boost multiple stats.
5. Reduce how much SP is used as a damage stat, to 1/2 it's current value... Maybe. Some (SP + MA) * WP weapons would be nice. Throw is broken though, but I could change it to use the thrown weapon's formula instead.
6. Give each job unique and useful stat growths and multipliers so you have a reason to level up in them.

>>3764000
Forgot to add:
7. Make stat breaks more accurate & effective, and rebalance the game so they're sometime more useful than HP damage.

>>3763990
That's why you don't bundle all those attributes under a single stat. Heroes V for example separates move (how mant hexes you can move) and speed (turn order/sequence). Evasion/dodge chance if it exist should be also tracked separately. That way you can have a lot of variance and many different unit types.

>>3763988
>Action economy
fellow dungeons and dragon sufferer

>>3764002
Yeah, but then geniuses would get the idea to separate every stat like that. So you'd get Strength, Might and Power. And then your stats balloon.

>>3763988
Literally this. You could balance it, if follow up attacks deal significantly less damage, but this is just wrong on all levels. Reducing to hit chance is almost equally bad.

>>3764009
Not necessarily since they don't affect combat nearly the same as a single OP speed stat would. What would even be the difference between the three in your example? Mechanically/gameplay-wise I mean

>>3764009
Hmmm.

>>3763988
Its not impossible to balance, it was balanced immediately when the concept was introduced: You only get 1 action a turn, speed only determines your turn order.

speed is op in everything including real life. Being able to do stuff faster is always superior

>>3763988
This. Though it's not impossible, you just don't have a speed stat.

>>3764008
I mean the term comes from DnD but it's just a basic concept in games. It's why any mod that allows more active party members in a game breaks the balance, because your guys getting to do more stuff per turn is just automatically more powerful.

>>3764009
>So you'd get Strength, Might and Power.
Isn't that just Heroes 3?

>>3763987 (OP)
>>JRPG
>>Speed stat is overpowered
yeah its only jrpgs lmao

>>3764173
That also makes speed a nigh useless stat though.

>>3763987 (OP)
Going first means you do damage before your opponent. Couple that with FFT's ability to let you get mutliple turns in a row with a single character.

>>3764222
>only jrpgs
>only example is an RTWP nostalgiaslop
Play a real rpg with tactical combat and you'll find out why going first/initiative (what FFT's speed stat is) is powerful.

>>3764241
It balances it with other common stats in RPGS: get enough speed so you're going first, but dont get too much. Get enough defense so you dont die, but not too much. Get enough accuracy so you hit often enough, but not too much. When you make speed something that also gives you damage it becomes a problem.

>>3763988
Yep. There isn't a single RPG system where speed/initiative/higher AP isn't the strongest option.

>>3764283
Going first isn't necessarily an advantage though. It can be advantageous for a healer to go last so he can heal off any damage that occurred that round. You can never have too much damage, defense (unless you are nullifying damage completely which is almost never the case), or accuracy (unless you have 100% accuracy which is rarely the case).

>>3764287
>healing in combat
Playing the game wrong to be honest.

>>3764289
What kind of baby ass RPGs are you playing where that's feasible?

>>3764287
>You can never have too much
You can have too much of the other stats if you have to choose what stats to get. If you control your level ups then you might want to get HP, speed, defense, accuracy, damage but you have to pick. I prefer healers going fast, before bosses, because its easier to be proactive with your healing and you dont end up casting a heal on a target you anticipate taking damage but they dont.

>>3764291
Any RPG when played correctly.

>>3764241
Not really. Speed can also affect dodge, can double as the "dex" stat if your system is lacking one, determine amount of attacks per turn etc.

>>3764331
>determine amount of attacks per turn
Not as a separate action, I should clarify. Sort of like what FF1 had with letting you swing a weapon multiple times in a single attack.

>>3764267
I had X-COM pics queued up next anon

Yeah, don't ever tell anybody who has never played FFT, but if you turtle in a corner using Yell(+1spd for the battle) and Accumulate(+1atk for the battle), then later Scream with Ramza (+1spd and +1atk), you trivialize the game completely. You can win any battle no matter how lop-sided it might be cause you can take 5 turns for every one of theirs and one-shot everything.

>>3763988
>>3764286
This. It's one of the 3 pillars, along with Regen and Kiting.

>>3764287
>You can never have too much damage
If you can kill the final boss in 1 hit, then even 1 more damage than that is officially too much damage, it's overkill

>>3764425
But bigger number make brain happier.

>>3763987 (OP)
This isn’t just JRPGs lmao

>>3763988
FPBP

Fucking Pokemon of all things honestly does a pretty good job at balancing speed. It only affects who goes 1st so it has significant diminishing returns. One of the main aspects of building competitive Pokemon is determining what relevant Pokemon are close to your speed range and either choosing to invest in speed to go before them or ignoring it in favor of more damage or defensive stats. Priority moves also exist which ignore speed entirely with the exception of when multiple Pokemon are using a move with the same priority value in which case speed is the tie-breaker.

>>3764222
>>>Speed stat is overpowered
>yeah its only jrpgs lmao
WRPGs have broken spells like Haste instead.

>>3764046
PoE did the opposite of what Anon is describing.
>Swinging a sword? Might. Shooting an arrow? Might. Throwing a fireball? Might.
One of the most common criticisms of PoE's stat system and their attempt to make every stat do the same thing for every class, is that you got extremely counterintuitive stuff like an optimized Wizard build being stronger and less intelligent than an optimized Barbarian build.

>>3763987 (OP)
Because the baseline effects of actions are far greater than the scaling you can apply to them via stats. That means that it's significantly easier to boost speed to where you get 2x baseline effect than it is to boost strength to where you get 2x baseline effect. Many effects also do not scale, while speed applies to everything.

Final Fantasy games arent supposed to feel balanced at any point. It's supposed to feel too hard to continue right up until it seems impossible to stop.

>>3764481
>Fucking Pokemon of all things honestly does a pretty good job at balancing speed.
It's also the most boring one.

>>3764487
that was the joke anon

>>3764413
yeah but is that fun? is that daring?

>>3764286
FFVI.

>>3764286
Fire Emblem. Speed is a good stat, but speedfag party members are usually among the lowest tiered units in each game because of how important strength/defence are.

>speedfag unit acts
>every enemy unit gets a temporary defense buff against the speedfag (call it "attention" or whatever)
Or use a stamina system on top to diminish the second turn capabilities

>>3768476
Lol fuck off Bumpfaggot
This isn't a real post

>>3768481
I'll reply to what I want, when I want, deal with it

What are some good nu-Tactics games?

>>3772672
Based Horizon Gate enjoyer, yeah IMO I think it's my favorite "FFT inspired" game while having its own unique qualities. My criticism is there are lots of unexplored parts on the map, especially the lands (yeah it's supposed to be a naval game but IMO missed potential). Thankfully there is that user obsessed with modding this game in the Steam Workshop.

>>3766228
Speed is funnily more of a defensive stat in FE since it prevents you from getting doubled by hordes of enemy members.
Although this also varies from game to game. The enemy phase ones like GBAFE value speed highly, but the Kaga ones with the unorthodox map designs aren't too speed oriented.

>>3772685
My main gripe with Horizon Gate is somewhat the same, I hated how empty the world was. There were barely any sidequests, the main quest was super short and there were only a handful of actual dungeons. The faction quests were just randomized and even if the game exploration was "open-world", the world was pretty much empty. It's a shame because they could have done very interesting things with the multi-party ship boarding system.

>>3772672
I can't find any that is as memorable as your pic desu

>>3772672
Triangle Strategy is okay, gameplay-wise.

>>3764596
To be perfectly fair that depends on what you wanna do with the Wizard, and some classes had a lot of flexibility in PoE. Like wading in and using all those melee spells was way different than AoE effects or slinging damage, and of those, at least the AoE focus required some Int.
Barbarian though, absolutely right, as unless you were doing some weirdo shit you needed to be a fucking genius to get the most use out of both Rage and Carnage, which was fucking bizarre, and worse, limited what you could do on the roleplay aspect massively.

>>3764596
Optimized wizard is high INT and high PER, with DEX as a tertiary stat. Might for wizards doesn’t scale well at all into higher difficulties because direct damage is crap, you want control and disables and interruptions.

That said, muscle wizards are a fucking stupid idea.

>>3773337
Eh, if you do high Dex and decent to high-ish Might and focus on the wack-ass martial spells ultimately finishing with Citzal's Martial Power, you can basically chew through fucking anything in a burst. And I think magic dudes who still wreck shit in ordinary combat have been a staple of fantasy in many ways, the problem is that PoE goes about it in really fucking weird ways

>>3764413
you can also just hit the bad guys and they fall down

>>3772703
If you haven't played Kingsvein yet, I actually think it's an improvement despite some... issues with the new class lineup. It's not open-world exactly, so the exploration is much tighter and purposeful, and it mostly funnels back to progressing the main quest one way or another.

>>3773453
Maybe i just think Horizon Gate has much more ceiling while the other games are just as it is. Maybe the "lack of content" can trigger that feeling.

>>3773295
Just okay? What about the story? Looking at this I'd expect something that's FFT -Tier.

>>3773295
>>3773664
Nope TriStrat moment to moment gameplay was OK (basically FFTA but with terrain and destructible mechanics) but the progression and customization is shit and non existent too - and it's more of Fire Emblem where you can only progress from chapter to chapter.
The story was a slog, nothing memorable until the end where some shit actually happens - but I feel like the world is just too small and contained that the stakes wasn't really apparent at all.
Coupled with characters adding unnecessary quips to pad dialogue just makes the game more boring than ever.
It is still slightly better than Octoslop tho.

>>3764425
but what about the obligatory hidden superboss that has twice the health and power?

Depends, if speed is mainly for evasion, the HIT or evasion formulas in these games are usually buggy or poorly coded. So stacking speed or evasion makes you untouchable.

In games with an action turn bar you can fit more turns. On support character this is usually overpowered because you can buff your main damage dealer by speed tuning and have them nuke or one shot a boss

>>3773664
Someone caption this image

>>3773686
I played the demo and thought the voting mechanic was very interesting but assumed based on what I had played and Octopath that I wouldn’t care for the game itself. I wish another game with a good story would take that idea and increase the complexity.

>>3777741
>ADAM EAT THE APPLE ADAM
>THE SNAKE SAYS IT’S OK

>>3764222
if BG1 and BG2 were turn based like the real D&D it would've been amazing. RTWP is slop.

>>3772672
This game looks AMAZING! What Fucking game is this MotherFucker!?

>>3773664

>>3763987 (OP)
This is only the case in CTB/rolling turn order games.

>>3764286
It depends on how turns are resolved. If it uses player/enemy phases [like dragon quest, fire emblem or SRW] it won't be too useful unless it is tied to dodge or movement range. If it is FFX/FFT/Kiseki style individual unit rolling order, it will always be the best of stats, assuming you're not just dealing chip damage.

>>3763987 (OP)
Speed is op in real life too. It’s just the way it is.

>>3763987 (OP)
>>3763988
Not impossible to balance, speed (or any stat that governs turn order or frequency of turns) only becomes overpowered when you can outpace enemies (in effect gain more turns than them) because of it. JRPGs that arent based on some variation of ATB or Tactics Ogre's Wait Turn system are fine because each character only ever gets one action per turn and speed only affects the order of actions taken during execution, so its games like FF1, SMT or Etrian Odyssey where its fine (unless there are some other broken speed builds I dont know about).

The easiest trick to making a balanced speed stat governing action rate is to add a rather large constant term so that whatever investment you put into it will be less worthwhile than into other stats unless the toolkit you have is not particularly reliant on non-speed stats.
For example in FF6 BNW romhack the effective speed stat is 51 larger than the base that usually ranges from 24 to 72. So going from 24 to 72 does not increase your action rate by 200%, but by 64%. And that's only on paper, because different actions incur additional delay penalties specific to these actions, further decreasing the stat's impact.
Any buffs to action speed should also either not stack up or be subject to diminishing returns or high initial offset.
You could also make the effective speed nonlinear in regards to base speed stat, for example using a square root function, but that's probably going to make avoiding outright gutting the stat's usefuless harder.

speed being the go-first stat is dangerous in most turnbased systems because it's so binary, if you are 0.0001% faster than the opponent you still get to go first and unload all your firepower before they can do anything, which usually makes their retaliation weak. So if the game is challenging and the other stats do anything you're probably constantly trying to just cross that threshold

>>3764000
I would say that speed should've started 50 base and gone up/down by class so even if you maxed out your speed at 99, you at best only got two turns to their one from it. But then again, that'd just be functionally equivalent to casting haste, which is probably what Yell should've done all along.

Doesn't really matter though because it's a singleplayer game and a large part of the fun is the sheer number of ways to break the game. Yell is just one more on top of several to do it with. DotA balancing, if everything's broken, nothing is.

>>3763987 (OP)
It's not exactly true for the original FF, though it's not also speed that's really your function of speed. Speed stat doesn't really do much but help you run away, turn order is random so it's not initiative either. The closest analog to speed is the number of hits you get per attack, which is based off of your level and what weapon you're using.

This makes speed somewhat balanced in the sense of your damage being (Weapon Damage + Strength) * (Number of hits per attack) * (2x damage for critical + ignore armor). It basically translates into Strength being highly important to overcome the enemy's absorb/armor stat and number of hits to further increase it, but if your strength is low you can still get high speed weapons and hope for critical hits to bypass armor instead. Fallout 1 & 2 work on a similar method, high powered weapons might be more reliable sources of damage but nothing beats a critical hit that ignores armor.

>>3773686
What about DioField Chronicle? Is it any better?

>>3783908
>I would say that speed should've started 50 base and gone up/down by class so even if you maxed out your speed at 99, you at best only got two turns to their one from it. But then again, that'd just be functionally equivalent to casting haste, which is probably what Yell should've done all along
I've never heard this solution before. My plan was to bake a limit for stat modifications into the relevant damage formulas, something like ((base stat) / 3) so you can never get your stats higher than (base stat + (base stat / 3)), or lower than (base stat / 3).

Also if you rebalance stat growths so everyone is good at something and bad at something, then level up/down loops to maximize speed will crush at least 1 damage stat and HP or MP... But you could just not allow level down.

This would lower the effectiveness of stat breaks and boosts.

>>3783938
As you said, it's just putting a limit on the stat by making the base stat higher, so instead of being overpowering by yelling, you become overpowering by speed breaking the enemy's stats. But yeah, for FFT's case, probably the best thing to do is just have immutable base stats that can only be temporarily modified by buffs and debuffs like haste/slow, etc, if it matters to fix at all.

Stat growths in FFT aren't particularly interesting per level.

>>3764000
It's really not that big a deal in FFT, there are basically no cases where boosting your speed to double the base by doing something to raise it by one or two points a turn is faster or easier than just killing your opponents and being done with it.

Now in FFTA it's very accessible to make characters that get multiple turns to each one enemy units get, and it's caused by stat increases being much, much more heavily based on what class you get them in than FFT.

>>3784390
*by what class you level up in I mean

>>3764241
It absolutely is not, if you can't get buffs/debuffs out first in some games you're going to run into problems.

>>3777931
It would also be slower than it already is, 2e's turn order was very dynamic.

>>3784390
I'm playiny through FFTA again, and I'm universally recruiting characters from the highest speed growth jobs. Ninja, assassins, thieves/jugglers, morphers, dragoons/white monks. Actual offense/defense/mp can be acquired via levels.

>>3784390
>It's really not that big a deal in FFT, there are basically no cases where boosting your speed to double the base by doing something to raise it by one or two points a turn is faster or easier than just killing your opponents and being done with it.
Funny enough people talk about the fight at Dorter being a huge difficulty spike, but I think that one fight was specifically designed with the idea that you would boost up Ramza's speed so that you can can blitz the enemies (especially the Black Mages) while Delita and Algus handle the Archer up top