Is this the most mechanically complex jrpg of all time?

Junction is not complex. It's convoluted just for the sake for being convoluted and thematically doesn't make any sense whatsoever

I've gotten to the point where I can no longer tell of FF8 praise is mostly bait or if 8fags are truly this retarded

>>3765074
>Junction is not complex. It's convoluted just for the sake for being convoluted and thematically doesn't make any sense whatsoever
Junction is not convoluted at all. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it convoluted.
You attach spells to stats, the stronger the spell and the more stocks you have the higher it raises the stat. That's it.

>>3765068 (OP)
>Is this the most mechanically complex jrpg of all time?
Not even close. It's not even the most mechanically complex Final Fantasy of all time. FF12's gambit system is more complex, by far. I'm not saying it's super complex or incomprehensible, or even bad (I was/am a pretty big fan of it). It is just more complex than the Junction system. I assume this applies to 13 as well but I never got around to playing it.
>Junction
Hurrr attach spell to stat, stat get stronger.
>Gambit
You have to at least be able to comprehend if-then statements.

>>3765074
>thematically doesn't make any sense whatsoever
jesus christ

>>3765074
>thematically doesn't make any sense whatsoever
It actually does. Junction is about storing the memory of something in your mind, in this case spells. When you use spells (and GFs in turn) you lose the memory of it, hence the stock getting smaller and why you need to refresh your memory by drawing.
Do you choose to preverse the memory of something or use it for power in combat. Which ties directly in to one of the "twists" people like to go on about and part of one of the themes of the game.
It's an extremely obvious thematic connection.

In FF8 we're told that only Sorceresses and Monsters use true magic. Everyone else uses something called "Para-magic", in japanese it's "Giji Mahō". But the term is never elaborated on. A more accurate translation would be "Psudo-magic" or "False Magic".

There was a scene cut from the game, on the train to Deling City, where Rinoa would have asked what makes a Sorceress different from everyone else using magic?
At this point we would have learned about Dr.Odine for the first time. Everyone in the Galbadia Army uses an Odine device, not Guardian Forces. So para-magic may or may not actually be what Squall and the other use by stocking magic drawn from monsters and draw points.
Later, Rinoa shows up with an Dr.Odine Bangle to suppress the sorceress' magic. Zell vouches for the Dr.Odine "brand".

In FF13, the people of Cocoon (the moon) also have devices that imitate magic. Specifically, they're manipulating Antimatter (later called chaos) by copying and measuring how the Fal'cie do it naturally. AMP. Antimater Manipulation Principle.
You might call this "False Magic" too. Get it? 'Cause the Fal'cie are "False Gods". Where as the branded L'cie can do magic without the devices. We really only see this at the beginning of the game. Lightning does that anti-gravity thing a few times.

We learn much later in FF8 that monsters come from the moon. GFs have an unspoken connection to the moon as well with crescent icons, as well as the moon (as mentioned in the help menu) having the same ability to make people forget.

In FF16, most citizen's use crystals to cast magic. People who can cast magic without crystals are called bearers, but also, "branded" because they are tattooed and persecuted. However there are also "Dominants" that are essentially bearers but they can summon Eikons. Humans are actually part of a eugenic program.

Conceptually, all these ideas go back from before FF8. To Xenogears. Channeling aether is a genetic trait, making them tools of the gods

>>3765132
Ah it's just another schizo thread of course

FF8 has a number of contracting lore points. Mainly para-magic and GFs were "discovered" by Dr.Odine. Making them recent inventions. Except, Odin (the GF in the Centra Ruins) is called a "Legendary GF".

>>3765134
love him or hate him he's the unofficial king of /vrpg/.

>>3765135
Cid, likewise, has the Magic Lamp, a "GF Item". Which seems to suggest that GFs have been around a long time. The lamp contained Diabolos, it's debuting appearance in Final Fantasy.

However, in Xenogears, The Diabolos Collapse, was an event in game's prehistory. Where humans first developed the genetic trait to channel aether, so all the non-mages were culled off by Gears call the Diabolo Corps. We never see these Gears. But in the present day, they're constantly digging up mecha parts from the desert and ocean floor which could all be "Diabolos" remains.

Originally, in FF16, Clive and Joshua were to fuse their eikons into "Diabolos". According to developer interviews and evidenced by Amano box art.

The genetic trait was desirable, but to control the population a "limiter" was set in place.
In FF16, this limiter is the "curse" that turns bearers into stone if they channel too much aether.

We see this in the "interdimensional rift" when, where Ultima says he punishes the unruly. It raises a lot of questions.

In FF8, Diabolo's scan data says it's a GF from another dimension. ~What does it mean~

>>3765138
That's Rean

>>3765144
You can't tell, but there's petrified people decorating the scenery.

There's also statues in FF9's Iifa Tree, leading to speculation that it might have been a plot seed that became FFX. Where "Memoria" was a kind of "Zanarkand". Meaning they would be the Summoners of Madain Sari. Or perhaps the people who first summoned Alexander.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKVJeTblPTk

Branded L'cie are given a "Focus". If they complete it they are turned to crystal. If they don't they are cursed to become cie'th.

I have to wonder if a similar concept existed in FF8. The Arch, the Gate they trap the Sorceress in during the parade, is based on the Arch of Titus, in Rome. Remembering Romans victory over Jerusalem, in 70AD.

What is the equivalent in FF8? Hard to say. The Arch was still there in Laguna's Past. So it's not Galbadia's victory over Timber. Although it would be interesting to connect the Iifa tree to Timber.

In FF11, the summoning art was "rediscovered" (as it usually is in the series lore) in Windurst, which was built on Kuluu ruins. So there there's another thread hear connecting Iifa Tree, Timber, and Diabolos.

In FF11 Diabolos is Terrestrial Avatar over dreams and dynamis. He appeared during the meltdown event that nearly killed life on the planet.
Although he's didn't "cull" everyone. He was just there to give the survivors an exit to another realm, if it looked like the planet wasn't going to recover.

Beneath Windurst "Heaven's Town" there is an underground lake/fountain sealing the Avatar Fenrir. The Summoner Job quests are kind of a mess, but are meant to be interwoven with the Main Storyline. I believe there was also a seal in Heaven's Tower that was sealing Diabolos. But it's easy to not question why Diabolos showed up when he did. He's been around much longer than Fenrir.

>>3765138
>>3765134
It's ai, right? has to be because there's no coherent thread with anything that he's saying. Most of it's just statements it's pulling from a wiki somewhere

>>3765157
Connecting the dots. Diabolos must also be inspired by FF3's boss on the floating content. That included a Genie, and Hyne, who kidnapped people inside a Tree/Ark.

In FF14, Diabolos was sealed during the War of the Mages, when they had also built an "Ark" to survive a flood.

Which probably means Diabolos in FF11 should have also be in some kind of "Ark".

In FF8. The Arks are probably the Gardens. Which means Cid probably just found the Lamp there, in Balamb Garden. Meaning Diabolos was in the lamp going back to the destruction of the Centra continent, most likely.

Diabolos isn't a Primal in FF14. He's a Voidsent. Which is actually kind of like a Dominant/Eikon from FF16, or a Lucavi from FFTactics.

In the Spirit's Within movie, Ross has dreams of an alien world. And they describe the meteor as a kind of "noah's ark" full of ghosts. Which makes her phantom a kind of Diabolos, in parallel structure.

Which also means, Valisthea is just a floating continent!

>>3765164
No no no. Diabolos and Hyne would literally be General Douglas Hyne. The tree connection is there in his office. His desk is made of wood. Like Timber, there aren't any forests left because of the phantoms.

In FF11, there is a northern continent we never see that had a World Tree. It was destroyed by Orcs at some point. But a sapling was transplanted, and became the Yggdrasill tree growing in the Seekers of Adoulin expansion. Everything on the continent is growing over it's roots, but beneath it, is a lifeless zone, miasma or something akin the Phantoms canceling out life. A kind of noah's ark that somehow survived the Cloud of Darkness and reached Vana'diel. Although the lifeforms called it more of a "prison".

>>3765177
FF11s story content was repeated revised and renewed. I don't think there was really a northen continent. I think it was literally just supposed to be Beaucedine Glacier and the Shadow Lords fortress. They had to say it was a different place to maintain continuity with their growing timeline.

>>3765117
>You attach spell to stats. Spells grow, stats grow.
How is that complex? Its just convoluted without any proper reason.
Your explanation speaks for itself.
>>3765123
I made you Christian.
>>3765098
Not as integrated as materias and magicites in the story. Purely gameplay segregation stuff. Just like sphere grid. There is nothing thematic about it.

Sorry >>3765098
It was meant for this guy >>3765129

Have you heard of a floating time line? It's like how the Simpsons keep moving Homer and Marge's marriage forward so they'll alway be married xx years ago.

That's basically the reality for Ultimecia, and Orphan who live in the future but not a particular time. They're an inevitable whenever.
Ultimecia wanted to compress time to 1 memory. Because she's like a Simpson's fan that sees the floating timeline as an absurd thing, when characters like Skinner suffer ptsd, from a war they couldn't have been in.

>>3765158
no, he's actually just like that. he's been doing it for longer than chatgpt type ai has been a thing.

>>3765158
it's called mental illness. not the meme insult thing with "meds now" but a legitimate mental problem.

>>3765173
>But the Owls are still around.
As a refresher for anyone that forgot the movie.
Grey's special phantom unit was called "Deep Eyes"
Grey dies at the end. But once they complete the spirit wave, there's a bird or eagle signifying life returning. (Or a phoenix).

In FF16, Jote and Joshua survey the northern territories. Also commenting that the birds aren't returning to roost. "Life" is magic, and there is no magic in the black wastelands. The eggs won't hatch.
An except could be made for the owls, which have aetheric crystals in their skulls.

>>3765188
He never said it was complex. You're just an idiot that can't read and thinks equipping a spell is convoluted.

Which Final Fantasy has your favorite combat/leveling system?

>>3765240
That scene might have also punctuated the defeat of Garuda. It's revealed in the ultimania guide that Joshua was in a coma for 10 years.
So when he shows up in Drake's Head, showing off all this magic he learned, that was from only a few years of study.
Despite being the phoenix, he can't revive or create life.

At the hideaway, the carpenters and gardeners talk about the blight. There's a line like "nature forgot what it is and needs a reminder"
They never follow up on that. It might be an English only line as well. The moogle's lines are completely different in Japanese. It's a rare magical creature in the deadlands. Apparent only Clive can hear it speak. Possibly a trait he absorbed from Gaurda.

>>3765260
There's also the dream sequence with all the Dominants, some in jail cells. It's weird because neither Clive or Joshua knew Benedikta, but she's like "somebody love me!"
Was it a dream or a hell dimension?

>>3765245
I said it wasn't complex to OP - but he tries to explain and instead accidentally showcased how it wasn't complex - just convoluted as I expected.
Please have some reading comprehension.

>>3765200
He has them ready in his Notepad or something.

>>3765074
>It's convoluted just for the sake for being convoluted
It isn't even "convoluted". Just "tedious". If you're going to spend any amount of time rifling through those ugly-ass, uncustomizable gray menus, you may as well just put Tornadoes on everyone's STR and curagas on their HP, and make them effectively invincible against 99% of the enemies in the game. For such an allegedly "complex and customizable" system, it's completely braindead and only one strategy makes sense—turning every one of your characters into a beatstick with 9999 HP. Yawn.

>>3765299
I guess "tedious" once you already understood it, but I say "convoluted" because it tries to appear complex without actually being so.

>>3765250
Why, 5, of course. The job system is robust and varied, and there's no "wrong" way to build a character, which is exactly why four job fiesta became a thing. Equipment abilities and stat boosts are small but significant, and continue to matter up through the endgame where it still pays to use weaker stuff with better abilities or boosts over whatever just has the highest defensive stats. Leveling up also doesn't really affect stats much, with only your HP and MP getting consistently buffed, which means most of your party's strength is going to come from the jobs they've mastered and the abilities/equipment they use.

>>3765310
>job system is robust and varied, and there's no
wrong way to build a character
the shit job system autists say as if it was the best thing possible
balance is overrated

>>3765306
>I say "convoluted" because it tries to appear complex without actually being so.
Ah, yeah, I get that. It doesn't help that the in-game tutorials are abysmally bad and don't even mention refining, which is the first step toward making the whole process tolerable.

I first tried playing FF8 when I was much younger and more retarded and impatient, and the junction system just repulsed me. Being "convoluted" was a part of it, but more so it was that it seemed too convoluted to care about, given how dumb and unlikable the story and characters were. The fact that the game kept fucking up my junctions whenever characters left the party or I shifted to a flashback was just annoying as fuck. It felt like I was doing my taxes just so I could keep playing a story that sucked with characters I didn't care about.

>>3765313
>balance is overrated
But I didn't say the job system was "balanced". I said it was "robust and varied". Some jobs are absolutely way more powerful than others, to the point that you can easily solo the game with them. But the important part is that there's no job that's objectively useless, which again, is why the four job fiesta has become such a huge thing—every build can be viable, but the player is going to have to do more legwork with some than others.

>>3765074
>thematically doesn't make any sense whatsoever
That's not true. The junction system is
>1) related to the main plot twist/reveal in the story
You may not like the orphanage twist, but you can't deny that the junction system is instrumental to setting it up;
>2) related to how magic works in the world, and therefore to the game's lore.
We know that only sorceresses can use magic naturally, but you can produce magic artificially by means of the junction system, making it, therefore, both the lore explanation as well as the in-game mechanic that allows magic to be used by the characters.
>but but I don't like it because some youtuber/eceleb told me it's le bad!
Irrelevant. You're wrong. Seethe. Dilate.

>>3765068 (OP)
Same old FF, just with the variables moved to summons instead of equipment/accessories.

>>3765355
>GFs are accessories
Problematic

>>3765351
OK it might made sense and lore-wise explained well, but still a shoehorned mechanic that has little to no impact to the story.
>but but I don't like it because some youtuber/eceleb told me it's le bad! Irrelevant. You're wrong. Seethe. Dilate.
kek, never watched a vid about FF8 whatsoever

>>3765367
>never watched a vid about FF8 whatsoever
When I was young and retarded, I bounced off of FF8 because I thought junctioning sucked and the plot was dumb, so I went to the internet and found Spoony's infamous video, which made me happy because it was like some other angry neckbeard basically laid my argument out for me.

But now that I'm older and more patient and have played most other entries in the FF series, I tried playing 8 again, and I realized how wrong Spoony was. FF8 sucks, but for entirely different reasons than he gets hung up on. In retrospect, Spoony's video is one of the worst things to ever happen to FF8-haters because now we all get written off for being as retarded as he was.

thems fightin' words

>>3765328
>every build can be viable, but the player is going to have to do more legwork with some than others.
Looking back at older opinions on the internet about FFV jobs is a hoot. People talk shit about about everything that isn't a straightforward DPS-machine. Even shit like chemist and blue mage used to get maligned—despite being some of the most powerful classes in the game—simply because you could just choose a command and kill everything. To me, the hatred for bard is absolutely fucking wild. it's a high-agility class that usually goes first, and can confuse/stop all enemies FOR FREE. Never mind all the stat-boosting songs, free regen on all party members, or fucking requiem to wipe undead mobs, again, FOR FREE.

FFVIII would be excellent if the Junction wasn't so boring. Refining magic is boring as well.

>>3765351
>You may not like the orphanage twist, but you can't deny that the junction system is instrumental to setting it up;
It isn't, though. All of the "set up" that foreshadows the orphanage twist is handled in text exposition—Selphie mentions the link between memory loss in her diary, and there's propaganda disavowing it in the school computer. Squall also forgets one of the people he graduates with when he returns to the Garden later in the game, and also forgets someone he meets at Fisherman's Horizon just a few screens later. That's really all the set up you get, which is enough I suppose.

But the fact that GFs themselves cause memory loss clearly was not a thoughtfully integrated plot point—the only reason it's even made to appear as such is because the game had to be rushed out the door, as it was originally intended to be a HUGE story that spanned two generations of characters. They didn't have time to do everything they wanted, which is why Laguna's parts all got relegated to disjointed flashbacks, and the game suddenly drops the fact that the heroes grew up with each other out of nowhere.

The junction system is not "instrumental" in setting up the memory loss twist. It's just a handy contrivance. The reason could have been anything—might as well have been the fucking cafeteria hot dogs.

>>3765389
>Refining magic is boring as well.
You're not wrong. Even once I understood it, the closest thing to "gameplay" FF8 had to offer was turning stacks of 100 things into stacks of 100 other things in the ugliest, grayest menus imaginable. Yayyy, I guess.

>>3765393
>It isn't, though.
Even though it is, but let me tell you how that doesn't count!
>originally intended
Xenogears was originally intended to be FF7. Therefore... Any plot point in FF7 is invalid/retcon? It is the part of any game development process that ideas get tossed around and considerably altered by the time the game is released. The only thing that counts is what we have after the game is released.
>is not "instrumental"
It is. You may not like how it was set up or how it was delivered, but that does not take away from the fact that the junction system was the explanation for the memory loss, and it was set up and it was delivered in the game.
>reason could have been anything
But it isn't. It is the junction specifically.
By your logic, any element in any story can be construed as a contrivance if it leads to an outcome.

>>3765413
>By your logic, any element in any story can be construed as a contrivance if it leads to an outcome.
But that's the thing—it doesn't even lead to "an outcome", lmao. They just picked GFs as an explanation because it was the closest thing they had to a plot point. Notice how, even after the party realizes their summons are eating their brains, they just ignore it and continue on as usual. There's no follow up, no consequences, no resolution, no anything. It's just a convenient, throwaway explanation. THIS is what makes it a contrivance. At least the hot dogs would have been funny.
>You may not like how it was set up or how it was delivered, but that does not take away from the fact that the junction system was the explanation for the memory loss, and it was set up and it was delivered in the game.
So by your logic, anything that happens automatically has to be good and important simply because it happened, even if it's executed like absolute shit and doesn't really matter? No wonder you like FF8.

>>3765418
>it doesn't even lead to "an outcome"
Except it does. Let me try to draw it for you so you can understand. It's not that difficult.
orphanage twist <- caused by: memory loss <- caused by: junction usage
>So by your logic
Nope. You're moving the goal post. We weren't discussing whether you think the game is "good" (which is subjective anyway). We were discussing whether the junction system is thematic or not. I proved that it was. Now you're trying to move the discussion away from that because you've realized you're wrong and you're trying to save face.

>>3765068 (OP)
I love its Junction Mechanic more than any other JRPG.
Its just a shame that the game is so easy.
If the game tailored fights around junctioning like how you do with Marlboro and Ruby Dragon it would be so cool.
Arent there mods that do that, buffs magic and nerf LB?

>>3765427
>orphanage twist <- caused by: memory loss <- caused by: junction usage
That's not an "outcome", that's just shallow exposition. The whole point is that you could change "caused by:" to literally anything and nothing would change.

orphanage twist <- caused by: memory loss <- caused by: your frenetic cocksucking

OMG, look! Suddenly, "frenetic cocksucking" is "instrumental" to the game's plot! And based on this epiphany, literally nothing changes! You continue to frenetically suck cock to no end, with no meaningful outcome or impact on the story! What a masterfully integrated contriv--, I mean, plot point!

>We were discussing whether the junction system is thematic or not.
And you still haven't proved it, because you seem to think "thematic" just means "was mentioned in the game somewhere".

>>3765427
>We were discussing whether the junction system is thematic or not. I proved that it was.
you don't know what thematic means

>>3765448
Yikes.
>>3765450
What do you think it means?

>>3765068 (OP)
Idea: a coomer rip-off of Final Fantasy 8, where GF stands for Girl Friend, and Junction stands for fukken. And instead of SEED you have NUT.

So all of your characters go through these laborious trials to get a GF (or a BF in the case of the female characters), then they have a big party back at the NUT headquarters. And the next morning when all of the students are walking around with their GF/BF, it is obvious which characters are degenerates and which are pure.

The degenerates are all walking around exhausted and stunned at how thoroughly they fucked or were fucked by their GF/BFs, and the GF/BFs are all glowing and satisfied as they feed on nut/girl juices. Meanwhile the pure characters are handholding their GF/BFs, and the GF/BFs in question look miserable, disappointed, and unbearably horny.

No actual sex is shown, just implied. Heavy on the innuendo. And it has the high school or college drama manga element.

I assume the sorceresses are women who don't need a BF to use magic, and thus are insatiably horny as they lack BFs.

>>3765454
However, GF/BFs feed on human's sexual energies to reproduce, so after a while they leave their human to mate with another GF/BF of the opposite sex. What usually happens is they pair up with the GF/BF of another person, and then their humans pair up too.

So you have this thing where getting absolutely railed by demi-human monsters and then pairing up with another human is part of the human reproductive life cycle. And then both your kids and your GF/BFs kids grow up together, and eventually it all starts over again.

I assume at some point the GF/BFs go feral and disappear into the wilderness, so the humans have to hunt and defeat them in combat.

>>3765068 (OP)

How is playing cards to refine items to refine magic to attach to attributes complex?

>>3765068 (OP)
Not even close, but it strikes a good balance

>>3765074
fpbp

all you do is draw spells and assign them to stats. Nothing deep at all.

and how much of a hassle it is getting spells to junction is one of the main draws (heh) to why I don't play FF8.

The others being level scaling, shit characters, and a bad romance plot.

>>3765287
I think the Phoenix shares Ellone's "Connection" ability.
In FF11, the Phoenix can revive souls that return to the mother crystal. There's some weird shenanigan's with time-travel, where it's not really "reviving" so much as giving them a new body.

If the Phoenix in FF16 could do this, could they also revive a former Phoenix Dominant? Is that all Ultima needed to revive his race? Maybe Jote was the new Phoenix Dominant, and she revived Joshua.
It's the kind of Fantasy Magic System that needs a limit. Maybe they can only revive the previous Dominant before them. Like links in a chain, or a chain of memory, like Ellone's power. But that chain also only goes back so far as a genetic trait. Dominants appeared shortly after year 0 of the Valisthea calendar.

In FF8, I swear Dollet's emblem is fashioned after the Phoenix. So the arch in Deling City is likely a Victory memorial for Emperors of the Holy Dollet Empire, which would be equivalent to the Holy Roman Empire.
But if Dollet is equivalent to the Roman Empire. What represented Jerusalem?

>>3765755
Deling City has a lot of "solar" motifs as well. That could include

>>3765351
>We know that only sorceresses can use magic naturally
Okay but what's with the Galbadian grunt soldiers casting fire spells at my party?

There could have been a Kashuan Empire, that was once in the Kashkabald Desert. A call back to FF2, and the Sunfire.
The Final Fantasy Tactics "wonder" also connects it to Eureka "the forbidden land" from FF3.

The Grand Mage of the era was Noah. His apprentices were Doga, Uni, and Xande. FF14 takes it a lot further with the Allagan Empire. Capturing primals and creating cloning technology to achieve a kind of immortality. As well as using royal blood as an access key.

In FF8, that Balamb Garden just sorta activated for Squall. The "Leonharts", if that's a real family name, could be a Centra bloodline, conveniently making the Garden just works for him.

In FF2, the Kashuan Keep only opened to the Kashuan Royal Voice (Prince Scott or Gordon) or the "Goddess Bell". The bell key item gimmick was used in the Mirage Tower of FF1, and in Burmecia in FF9.

>>3765074
What is the theme of FF8?

>>3765861

Foolish boy. Everything is an illusion. Your hopes, your friends, even your life shall fade.
So. You'd rather die hard.

>>3765892
Nooo, Rinoa, remember your promise! Remember the field behind the orphanage... You said I'll be there... waiting... so... if you come... you'll... find... me... I... promise...

>>3765068 (OP)
FFVIII is proto-X, which is proto-XIII, which is the beginning of the end of the franchise, therefore VIII is shit.

>>3765902
VIII didn't have spheregrid or cristarium

>>3765892
I've never seen Die Hard. Am i missing something?

All he ever wanted was to fulfill his romantic dream

>>3765924
>FF8 features a die hard reference in dialogue
>One of the tracks is titled the man with a machine gun
>Swings from the sky on a fire hose/rope
>Lunatic pandora is the Nakatomi tower
Oh god what have you done!

>>3765453
>What do you think it means?
Everyone who passed their middle school literature class in a first world country knows what it means. You're the one here who needs to prove it, but I'm not holding my breath.

>>3765963
>I know that it is, b-but I'm not going to say it! Let me run away now!
Pathetic.

>>3765200
it's esotericism, draw conclusions yourself

question for the trve cvlt fans... i made it up when the school becomes the airship, was hardly following the plot but totally lost it after this point due to having to set it aside for a few weeks due to circumstances. battles were also getting harder because i couldn't find good places to draw, never looked at playing cards, and leveled up severely, so i just dropped the game

should i just look up a guide to playing cards and refining magic so that i can blast through this for the plot? is the card system easy enough for someone who knows it's exploitable to exploit it that i should try and wade through it myself or is the exploitable mechanic completely counter-intuitive to the point that i would never discover it without a guide developed based on decades of autism?

>>3765963
What is the theme of FF8?

>>3766010
Whats the theme of Die Hard?

>>3766024
Say it.

>>3766031
Because it's an Action film the "themes" are different from the novel it's based on, Nothing Lasts Forever, even though it follows the same plot.
The film is more impromptu survival. The novel has more woman killing, and they changed the character of the terrorist to be less honorable and sympathetic.
The main character is a retired cop that's kind of an asshole and doesn't hesitate to point a gun at someone to control them. (He's the real terrorist). He's only wrapped up in the plot to reconnect with his daughter (in the book). Regrettably people keep dying. If he wasn't there he acknowledges that nobody would have died. He kills women.
His daughter was having an affair with a coworker who does drugs. So he doesn't like him, but the guy has done more for his daughter than him, and being agreeable and responsible with the terrorist despite being a corrupt guy Basically everyone dies because of him.

Probably has more in common with FF16 than FF8.

>>3766102
A lot of detective stories are like that. Where the bad guys aren't bad, they're retaliating, and the protagonist shouldn't have their way, and everything is worst because they're there.

"Vengeance" is a word.