How do we fix Luck stat?

>>3775175 (OP)
Make it warp reality, like Jinxed trait in Fallout 2. You could make an unarmed build with high luck that effectively just cursed your enemies to fuck up their actions.
Alternatively, you can work with the narrative - like in the DLC for Shadowrun Hong Kong if you made the deal with the luck demon at the end of the original campaign.

>>3775175 (OP)
>charisma
>S tier
get the fuck out

>>3775175 (OP)
Only stats you need are Strength, Agility, and Intelligence.
If you want to separate offensive functions of the stats from defensive functions, then Strength, Endurance, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, and Willpower.
Anything else is bloat and the only way to fix it is to kill it.

I thought the Konosuba series did a pretty good job of justifying the luck stat. Luck doesn't increase power, but it twists opportunities into being favorable for you in small and big ways.

Maybe Luck could work something like "Charisma" where certain social situations just don't happen without a certain baseline luck. Or if you had substandard luck, it'd be more probable that a given situation works actively against you.

>Attack
>Defense
>HP
>MP
Let me guess, you need more?

Luck already prevents random unplanned things to affect you

>>3775204
I'll trade any stat for an action/ability I can perform. Like speed = dodge

>take "jinxed" trait from fallout
>overtune it and turn into actual mechanic
>balance it around high and low luck

>>3775175 (OP)
HELLO SIR
Good Afternoon sir!

>>3775175 (OP)
Make it a higher cost but also give it a chance to proc any of the other stats at any time to S
Sometimes your magic cost is zero, sometimes you accidentally cast a higher tier spell at no cost difference
You keep trying to pick up a weapon too heavy but somehow it felt light the 20th time you attempted to pick it up

>>3775175 (OP)
"Fix"?

>>3775189
t. Skyrim pro

>>3775282
Skyrim's problem is that the gameplay is so simplistic that only having the health/stamina/magicka attributes feels as dull as it looks. Mages don't care for stamina, and nonmages don't care for magicka. Fortify attribute is also plentiful enough that you never really need to worry about investing deeply into any stat but your "main" since you can cover up to a reasonable amount with enchantments.

But in a well-designed system, every character should want every stat to some degree. You should never be able to simply dump the other stats without severe consequences - Those consequences should be sorely felt, rather than glossed over with sufficient gear.

Strength = Carrying/equipment capacity (which should be important, with maneuverability being dependent on how much you're carrying as a proportion of your limit), Weapon damage (melee and ranged)
Endurance = Non-mental damage reduction, health, resistance to physical ailments
Dexterity = Perception, hit rates, Critical hit chance/effectiveness
Agility = Dodge value, speed, physical maneuverability (jump distance, aerial control etc)
Intelligence = Spell effectiveness, knowledge, Ability to learn new skills (martial and magical) and to craft items(such as potions), XP gain
Willpower = Spell capacity, Resistance to magical effects and mental damage, Persuasiveness, Ability to command companions

Merge Willpower into INT, Dexterity into AGI, and Endurance into STR for the simplified version. This is of important for ensuring that all characters will want every stat in some amount, but if you're desperate to let people play as glass cannons or immovable objects purely from stat selection (rather than specific gear effects) then they can be split at the cost of losing some of the system's elegance and intent - it's easier for characters to simply dump certain stats.

cont. 1/2

>>3775282
>>3775325
2/2
Typically, any character will want all three attributes. With low strength, they can't carry a reasonable amount of loot out of a dungeon, they'll be encumbered by their essential gear alone, and won't be able to endure stray hits that come their way. With low agility, they lack maneuverability, they can't hit consistently, they can't avoid attacks well. With low intelligence, they level up slowly, can't learn new combat techniques, won't be able to command more than one or two companions, will struggle with negotiating quest rewards to afford new gear, and will fold to even a weak control spell.

By ensuring that every stat is multifaceted and important to all characters, an attribute system that on the surface seems simplistic can actually makes the game more complex, rather than less so.

i've only seen luck in TES and fallout, idk maybe its in jrpgs before they became movies

>>3775335
ffx had it

>>3775175 (OP)
Speed/Agility should be S-tier. It's always busted in every instance.

>>3775175 (OP)
Depends on system. If there’s classes then make luck a hidden stat dependent on class selection that’s improved by later class features. If it’s classless/non-fixed classes then make it dependent on backgrounds, items or events (example, you contact a fortune teller and your good reading improves your luck for x months or years)

>>3775182
It's literally the GOAT stat for more content (and sometimes less content)

>>3775175 (OP)
Luck is always a meme stat unless it does something like increased crit chance or higher quality loot drop chance in looter games.

For RPGs, Luck would work better as a perk or something you can select multiple times, sort of similar to Wild Wasteland. It's not interesting to have some minor % increase, what people like is when random cool shit can happen.
Different types of luck can also be interesting, where one type can be more like a monkey's paw where good thing happens to you at the cost of people around you.

>>3775348
i remember now wasteland had luck too and it was op

>>3775175 (OP)
You can't. If Luck is the crit rate stat it's just a redundant Strength stat. If Luck is the "do you get to see content" stat it's either a dump stat or mandatory based on the game.
Charisma and to a lesser extent Intelligence have similar problems.

>>3775325
I disagree. Skyrim's problem is that it's combat system is so janky that the optimal solution is to not engage with it, by playing a stealth archer build.

I don't really know how to fix the melee portion, but you can fix the magic portion by increasing the speed and AoE of missile spells, or by making missile spells homing.

As for stats, a 2:1 ratio of offense stats to defense stats seems to work best for some reason. I can't articulate why.

FFT has 2 (arguably 3 or 2.5) offensive character stats, and 1 defensive stat - HP. Contrast with FFTA which has 3 defensive stats, and the other 2 defensive stats are largely ignored.

I can see an argument for making stats function for both offense and defense, or by giving each character/job a ratio by which their offensive (strength, intelligence, agility) stats function as defense - basically make the defense derived.

>>3776503
continued

>>3775175 (OP)
As for luck, here's my solution.

Offensive stats:
> Strength - physical attack power
> Intelligence - magical attack power

Mixed stats:
> Dexterity - affects physical hit rate, chance to land debuffs with physical attacks, chance to parry with a weapon or catch/deflect a projectile
> Will/Faith/Wisdom/Cunning - affects magical hit rate, chance to land debuffs with magical attacks, chance to tank a magically inflicted debuff, chance to tank a mental debuff (concussion from being bonked in the head for example)
> Luck - affects everything a bit, some things a lot
> Speed - rate at which you gain turns
> Agility - ability to move in terms of distance, clearing obstacles, swimming, etc
> MP - possibly a derived stat
> Perception - affects hit rate, turn order, and dealing with some niche stuff like dodging, attacks from behind/side, targeting invisible foes

Defensive stats:
> HP - possibly a derived stat
> Constitution/Vitality/Endurance - reduces physical damage taken, increases HP healing, and possibly determines your HP pool
> Spirit - reduces magical damage taken, increases MP healing, and possibly determines your MP pool

>>3775325
>every character should want every stat to some degree. You should never be able to simply dump the other stats
I disagree, I prefer specialized characters with strengths and weaknesses.

Problem with Skyrim is that stealth archetypes don't have a great need for stamina nor health like warriors do. But ultimately character customization is up to perks anyway.

>>3776513
I think we're agreeing here. I'm not saying that every character should be a mishmash of the same stats. I'm saying that by making every stat attractive to every character, you're always feeling your flaws in how you choose to specialise. There is no safe dump stat, so when you decide to shape your character strengths and weaknesses, you have to make an informed decision to do so rather than the system effectively auto-deciding a dump stat for you.

>>3776503
>the optimal solution is to not engage with it, by playing a stealth archer build.
It’s actually to hit elves in the face with a giant axe.

>>3775175 (OP)
What is with this stupid list? A lot of these aren't attributes that appears in most RPGs or just alternate names for other things in this list. What the fuck is Cunning?

>Always around stats
STR, INT, AGI/DEX, CON

Usually, AGI & DEX are synonyms but it is usually the stat that gets split. Since most RPGs are focused on combat, the 2 other D&D mental attributes are shafted. CHA (Charisma) is either broken or useless; there is no in-between. I prefer Underrail's WILL stat merging with CHA. WIS (Wisdom) has the most misleading name of the 6. Early CRPGs end up replacing WIS with Piety/Faith which governs healing spells & magic defense. For whatever reason, most JRPGs just call it MND (Mind). Honestly, Daggerheart probably did the right thing and called it "Instinct" but that doesn't abbreviate as well and doesn't make sense for Clerics. PER (Perception) is just focusing on the physical aspect of WIS, noticing stuff.

>>3776648
>I'm saying that by making every stat attractive to every character, you're always feeling your flaws in how you choose to specialise. There is no safe dump stat, so when you decide to shape your character strengths and weaknesses, you have to make an informed decision to do so rather than the system effectively auto-deciding a dump stat for you.
When talking about RPGs should work, I ignore TES. However yes, every stat has to be somewhat useful to every build/class. Having STR be only used by mages to determine how hard they hit with a staff is lame. Sure, there is the easy stuff like carry weight but I prefer having the threshold method where having a stat be too low will have crippling consequences.

>>3776650
I made a 10-15 attribute system in an attempt to fix the whole "pass speech check to skip content" thing.

>>3776663
Did it fix anything?

>>3775175 (OP)
>crits you
>gets your rare drop
Luck is fine faggot.

>>3775182
5e cha characterals are awesome, as they are usually dual classing. Warlock, paladin, bard are either half or full casters and full martials.

>>3775198
>I thought the Konosuba series did a pretty good job of justifying the luck stat. Luck doesn't increase power, but it twists opportunities into being favorable for you in small and big ways
Like?

>>3775242
Hello xister

>>3776668
I didn't implement it. It was something that I written down. I was just annoyed about how Age of Decadence played like murderhobo sim or a VN. I wanted to separate attributes to physical and mental instead of both having a shared stat pool.

>>3776680
I like talking about stats. I analysed a few dozen of the newer ttrpg 2010+ and a couple of old ones. Honestly, they are all shit. IMHO one should first formulate what one expects for their system and then decide which random means to use (dice, cards, coins,...). D20 is near insane. It's just an objectively stupid system.

>>3776648
Oh okay, we agree. It's just a matter of every stat being useful, but not needed for every playstyle.

>>3775175 (OP)
Critical chance needs to be substantial enough to be worth it while not being guaranteed every other turn. Capping out at no higher than 25% but it depends on how """hard""" the game is.
If you don't have critical chance I think defeat denial/glancing blows. An attack that should kill just misses, ala Jinxed.
It should also give you more money and increase drop chances for rarer items.
>Okay we agree on what Luck should cover, how do we fix it?
Pity system for crits.
Informing the player that Luck actually did something.

>>3775175 (OP)
Luck is the God tier stat and you don't know shit

what the fuck is the "cunning" stat

>constitution AND resistance AND vitality AND endurance AND body

>>3776971
Cunting*

>>3776971
>Punches through Luck's +10% evade and +10% status defense once and trashes your character

>>3776972
AND sex appeal

>>3777217
>Perception to see you, Wisdom to know to avoid you, and Luck to get away

>>3775182
The problem with charisma is that when implemented it's almost always an amalgamation of a dozen things in the way physicality never is. It would be like if dexterity, strength and endurance were just tracked by a single stat. RPGs usually lump the act of charming a random bar wench with diplomacy with a head of state and being attractive under one skill. The same way you can play as Hercules with no fine motor skills with a high strength/low dexterity character, I want a game where I can play the world's most handsome autist with a high beauty/low social character. Or combined stat checks, like alongside charisma also needing intelligence to be a savvy negotiator or strength to be able to intimidate others.

>>3777366
Have you ever heard of Disco Elysium

>>3777371
>turn all skills into social skills
kino

>>3777355
>>Luck to get away
Until you collapse of exhaustion, fail to gain divine assistance and give up

>>3777371
kys commie

>>3776971
t. soulless materialist vermin

>>3775175 (OP)
shadowrun's edge is incredibly powerful.
You see, you can use an edge to add your edge stat to a roll, or to reroll a roll, and all sorts of other things.
Which means, if you have high edge, you can simply use your ffffucking luck to do things you ordinarily couldn't several times a session.
Who needs to be good at driving? you're LUCKY!
who needs to be good at shooting? You're LUCKY!

This only breaks down when you need to do something with consistency, where actual skills can do a thing over and over, wheras luck by its nature is fickle and finite.

>>3778423
feels like it would step on other people's toes
like maybe I better drive
maybe I better hack this terminal
maybe I should take this sniper shot

>>3778444
Edgeomancers are a very feast or famine kind of playstyle

>le witty charisma bard with a heart of gold
hate redditors so much is unreal

>>3778667
Putting "le" in front of something doesn't make it Reddit

>>3778667
>le witty charisma bard with a heart of gold, and huge tits
Fixed it for you.

>>3778673
Yes it does, and only a redditor would say otherwise.

>>3775175 (OP)
Endurance and Vitality are the same thing.

>>3778689
Only newfags who don’t remember the old internet are constantly thinking of Reddit.

>>3778700
Only redditors who don't know the old internet are constantly deflecting like you do.

>>3775175 (OP)
Charisma is by far THE most broken stat in modern RPGs. Need to convince a band of thieves not to attack you? Charisma. (Some games even give you the same amount of XP from talking your way out of a fight and actually fighting it.) Need to flirt with or attract someone? Charisma. Reason and create a deal with a politician or ruler? Charisma. Negotiate with a trader? Charisma. It completely reigns supreme, which makes sense since humans are social creatures, so of course we value charisma as an OP stat, but still pretty uncreative implementations in most games.

>>3779817
>Charisma maxxers when the final encounter is a non-skippable combat
Aaaaaaaaaaah!

>>3775175 (OP)
make luck correllate to attractiveness of your gf.

critical hit damage

also the god tier stat in final fantasy is DEFINITELY speed btw

>>3777366
>The same way you can play as Hercules with no fine motor skills with a high strength/low dexterity character, I want a game where I can play the world's most handsome autist with a high beauty/low social character.
>Or combined stat checks, like alongside charisma also needing intelligence to be a savvy negotiator or strength to be able to intimidate others.
I can genuinely only think of Arcanum doing both of those things, with Charisma determining how convincing you were but Intelligence actually determining what arguments you can come up with. Admittedly Beauty was a meme stat in this split other than MAYBE countering the penalty for talking to NPC that'd normally hate you for whatever reason, but it was still funny to see random passersby and certain important NPC get utterly flustered the second you talk to them.

If you dump luck in Fallout 4 you will be absolutely fucked and have no ammo to kill anything.

>>3776971
>t. soulless materialist vermin

>>3778694
If it's one stat, what value would an immunodeficient ultramarathoner have?

>>3779878
>not having an intimidation based combat suite

>>3778694
Body, hp, end, vit, sta, vig. I hate it when games have this. Like, come on, 5 stats where others need 1-2?

>>3779964
Luck affecting loot is the best thing

>>3775198
I feel some games already do this in a simplified way. I also think this is more common in stat wankery RPGs, where you have like 12+ stats. The most known instance of such a luck stat might be your casino luck in FNV. I like the luck stat. It has a lot potential when done right and makes for more interesting gameplay. Just having a ridiculous crit-chance is fun.
>>3775325
> every character should want every stat to some degree
I disagree. There should be a class that profits from being a jack-of-all-trades, imo, but in general a system should lean into specialists. Makes the game more replayable and each class more distinct.
>You should never be able to simply dump the other stats without severe consequences - Those consequences should be sorely felt, rather than glossed over with sufficient gear.
yes, but depending on the subgenre, this can be mitigated (by having hirelings or a party), so I see it as another encouragement to make specialist classes the right play.
>>3778667
>>le witty charisma bard with a full bag of gold and the clams.
there. Now you got a good bard. Only boring, unimaginative people play goody-two-shoes.

>>3776969
What if you do something similar to Cyberpunk 2077? Crit Chance is increased by Reflexes, but Crit Damage bonus is increased by Cool.

>>3775175 (OP)
>JINGLE JANGLE JINGLE
>OH *I AM* FEELING LUCKY
We're starting 4 6 6 8 8 4 9

>>3778675
huge tits should add a bonus to charisma if you think about it

>>3775175 (OP)
make it so you need luck to get certain encounters like how you need charisma for certain dialogue options

>>3775175 (OP)
In Risk of Rain, luck is an extremely powerful stat. Each point of luck rerolls a % chance, and since many items have a fixed % chance of proccing regardless of stacks its power cannot be understated.

Inversely, there is also bad luck which does the same, rerolling for unfavorable chances. Even one or two of these will make many powerful items completely useless.